 Don't like globalization, but I believe in, we believe in globalization. Globalization actually in the past 30, 40 years helped a lot of countries to grow, especially countries like China. But people don't like it because it's not inclusive. So globalization itself is good, but how we can improve it? How we can make more developing countries get involved? How we can help a small business get involved? Young people get involved. In the past 20 years, the globalization was controlled by 60,000 big companies. So what if we can help 60 million or 60 million small business, any young people that can global buy, global sell? That's something that I think the world trade should be looking like. So I think today because of the technology we have, because of the internet, because of the mobile phones, because of the new infrastructure that we are building up, we think we can help all the small business young people. If they have a phone, they can global buy, global sell, global deliver, global pay, and global travel having fun. That's the whole vision for EWTP. And I think this is what I talked to WTO. WTO needs to be upgraded to the second version, focusing on developing countries, focusing on the young people of small business. And most of the free trade zones today designed for only big companies. We think there should be free trade zones for small companies to import, export. 24 hours clearance, custom office. And if you are below one million US dollars exporting to the other countries, it should be totally terrible free. And EWTPT refers for training, trade, technology, and tourism. So making sure that, because the whole world is expecting a new form of globalization. I don't think, you know, the model in the past 60 years that all the government make decisions how to do business and the business follow. Next 30 years should be the business make decisions government supported. So this is EWTP is a private driven and that's why we go one country after one country. The convention of the country has the vision, the convention. Convincing the government has the wisdom and the courage to support young people of small business. This is the whole vision. So one person you have convinced is President Kagami. You've signed up for this. Mr. President, why did you sign up and what are the expectations you have of this for Rwanda? Well, to begin with, it was a great opportunity that came our way. Thank you, Zenni, for first of all inviting us here and moderating the session. So when I met Jack Ma and he had already thought through this in a broader sense and was happy to start with Rwanda because of what Jack had observed in terms of the investments we have made in the area of infrastructure and technology and the governance generally there that would support this kind of business and relationship and transactions. So we have already started and what is happening on the ground is very exciting because the young people and what Jack has just said, this is a relationship that brings in the otherwise marginalized levels of society, the young people, the farmers. And this has helped bring them in connection directly with the consumers. Can you give an example of what you were telling me earlier about the example of coffee? This initiative was signed in October 2018, so really not very long ago. Give us a sense of what on the ground has happened already. Already there is coffee being sold through these e-commerce. Two Chinese customers. And what is happening on average generally a coffee farmer or business people were getting around $8 per kilogram. Now they have additional four, which is $12 for every kilogram. And this happens very fast and the transactions are very beneficial most of your time. So one of the ambitious goals of this is that you said it was up to a million dollars in transactions would be tariff free and you, Mr. President, have clearly agreed to that. Do you think, why did, did you do that because you think that's an important part of a development strategy? There's no question about it. If you look at the number of people who are going to benefit, the young entrepreneurs, these farmers who are involved in, for example, coffee businesses, it's all inclusive. The small and medium enterprises are benefiting and the majority, when it comes to the businesses in any country, you find these ones put together, hold more than any other level that you can think of. And where, Jack Ma, what's the scale of your ambition with this? You have signed up a couple of countries, so far you're going country by country, but is your goal to create an alternative global trade system? Well, we want at least to giving some values to the new global trade system because of the technology. I never expect that Africa could be so huge. This is my, in two years I've been to Africa for three times. And when I, when we started to sell the coffees, 2,000 packages of coffee, we put online and within three days all sold out and I said, wow. And nobody, we even did not have a lot of promotions by giving the package, some packed coffee to my friends. They tried it and they said, Jack, where did you get this? I said, you know, you guess. And I said, Luanda, are you really? Then we think this year, at least for coffee wise, we can sell 120,000 packages. And for those young people, when they have a mobile phones, not only for computer games, not only for making phone calls, twitters, they should do business. So that's, that's what we think it will be covering all the countries. So, so let's posit your successful and this grows and is a big part of trade. It's a lot of countries. Mr. President, would you worry about having a trading system focused on one company? Well, before you are about that, I am happy that what is happening is more inclusive on the other side of the beneficiaries, where in fact it has more or less democratized benefits in terms of, when I said the small and medium enterprises or other players individually being directly connected with their consumers on the other end and benefiting. I think that's huge. It's like we are here talking about hundreds of millions later on running into billions of transactions involving more and more people every day in this and benefiting. Before you worry about one individual or one company or two that are doing that, I'm also looking at the benefits on the other end where the numbers are unprecedented. But would you want down the road other companies to be doing the same thing? I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about the small and medium enterprises and individuals. There are hundreds of millions and billions getting better for what they are doing. So, now I'm very good. This is what I'm at first. It's not a one company because we can never deliver ourselves. We don't have ones that people deliver for us. So, we have a lot of deliver company for us. We have a lot of payment. The banks get involved. We get a government. But even if one company, if this company can solve the SME problems, young people's problems, job creations, let them do it. That's what I would say. But first, there is no this company in the world. There will be no this one company can do everything. For Wali Baba for EWTP, we said, this is our idea. This is our vision. Nobody believe it. And then we invite people who believe in building the app and get involved. Luwana is going to be the most important hub, the founding hubs of EWTP. One day, there are people who get used to that hub. They will be experts and expect to be all the African. So, this is the concept. This is the dream. This is not the... I think Wali Baba cannot do it alone. We have to partner. Let me give another typical example. We are aware of, say, global pandemics. There have been diseases affecting millions of people, tens or hundreds of millions of people. When we get medicine, if we go to medicine, and the medicine is accessible, it's affordable by the majority, do I start getting worried about the source of this medicine? Do I start getting worried and say, why does this medicine come from one company? I'm happy that people are getting treatment and in their numbers and it's accessible and it's affordable. So, for me, from this end, maybe for the other end, it's for Jack Ma to answer that question. I was going to quickly ask him that. But for me, from the other side, I'm happy. I was just quickly, and I'm going to then open to the audience. I was going to ask from the other side, when you talk to other potential partners, and let's be honest, we are in a world of rising tension on tech matters between the US and China, and as people talk about a splinter net, is your very ambitious global plan viewed in some quarters with more suspicion than you would like? Well, today the world is full of suspicion and full of worries. To me, to us, it's an opportunity. I don't believe over 200 countries, everybody is puzzled. Every country is worried. But Europe is something worried of me because the worried worry of Europe. The worried worry of Europe? The worried worry of Europe. European people just worry too much. Ah, privacy, ah, security, is there any rules? What happened with this and that? So, I'm happy President Kagami, he's not following Europe. Embrace the future. Because people here in Europe, I was here, everybody talking about how can we regulate it? How can we protect? There's nothing can protect you unless you have the capability of knowing the technology. So, that's why we don't go to America first. We don't come to European countries first. We go to the country who believe in first. We go to Africa and they say, wow, people say, impossible, how can Africa be successful? I said, I heard this question and challenge again and again when I started my business 20 years ago in Alibaba. Everybody say, how can Alibaba be successful in China? In China, no internet. Government banning, losing laws, no credit cards, no logistics. We say, if there's no, that's beauty. If there's no credit card, let's build a payment system. If there's no logistics system, let's build a logistics system. So, we are not fighting for tomorrow. EWTP will never be successful tomorrow or today. We're probably succeeding 10 years, 20 years. So, we should have, if we have a patience, we believe if you really create value for the others, more people are joining. So, this is always we believe. I have lots more questions I'd like to ask you, but I think I'm going to open now to the audience. Yes, gentleman here, second row. Hi, my name's Youngmin. Could you briefly introduce yourself and keep it brief? Hi, my name's Youngmin. I'm global shaper from Korea. First, I'm working for Google. I have many questions about tech industry. I have a friend right now. As you know, as digitalization is accelerating, we produce more and more data. But the thing is, the data itself is collected and centralized to specific country and specific company. So, how can you think, how can you solve this like data centralization issue? Thank you. Data center. Centralization. Do you want to take that or three? Yes, very briefly and then we'll move on. Yeah, I think first, everything we worry today will be solution. If we cannot solve it, somebody will. If I cannot do it, my kids will do it. But if you don't do it, then there's no problem. There's no hope. So, I don't worry about that. Most of the government today worry about the data, privacy, security, centralizations. It's just the beginning of the data period. Give another five years. You will find things will be completely changed. Thank you. There's a lady here at the front row. Hi, I'm Wajiel from Bangladesh. I have a technology startup where we're doing right sharing and various consumer centric services online. So, I'd be curious to hear about your experience from the early days of China. If there's one factor that you had to pick that really spurred consumer adaptation where the hockey stick came, what would that be? Well, unfortunately at the beginning of Alibaba business, no people come to buy. A lot of people come to sell. And we buy all the garbage they sell to tell them it works. And then when people start to sell, good things. And then the system goes. Very important is making sure because first, I remember the first month, we saw a lot of sellers on our site. And the things that we don't know what, nobody will buy them. So we buy them because the price was low, they're testing. So we buy them, put them in the other room, we never open it. And then people say, wow, it really works. And hence, the system start to work. And then you improve your products, your services. There it goes. Thank you. Very concrete. Yes, lady there. Check, check it. Hi, I'm Erich from the Bahrain Development Bank. I just sort of have a comment and maybe just sort of a curiosity to say that in regards to being afraid of just one company, I think there always has to be the first person that does it. And then I think that there may be other platforms will follow. I think the other point is that in terms of, is there a plan of integrating? For example, you said you can't do it all yourself. Would there be a plan to help create those side businesses that can help support the platform in Rwanda? And is there a plan for that from the way you are coming in in your experience, or is that just going to come organically? That's a very good question. We are very sure EWTP should be an ecosystem. We are building up a platform to bring in more people. Luckily, we have President Kakami's courage and say, government will do anything to support their own kind. Rwanda's young people, small business, and custom office, all the things. And then the next step we do is to do a lot of training. We invited, and actually President Chester said at a very high level, Rwanda ministered levels to come to handle our base. That we're training them for one week. And the other job I'm doing is that we are accepting 500 entrepreneurs in Africa in the next three, four years. And they're sending them back. They are the seeds. They're going to train the trainers. They know how to do business. And then we're also encouraging all the logistics companies. The other challenge that probably I will discuss with the president later is about how we can. There are over 40 or 50 countries in Africa. Every country has a board and rules. And how can we do the transport logistic freely? So when we arrive at Rwanda, it's OK. But how about the Rwanda go to Kenya and Kenya to Ghana? This is a great opportunity in the world, in Africa. 1.2 billion people. They need the things to move fast. They need the government coordination. President Kagami, maybe you'd like to add to that, both on the complementary policies and this really important question of how this works across African countries. Yes. I was going to come to that. If you look at the e-commerce that has been working and you see, for example, that the online transactions, Africa benefits about $10 billion. And yet these are trillions of dollars on the market. So there's a lot of work to do. There is a lot of growth space to be undertaken in this because it involves about 20 to 30 million people in Africa, yet there are billions across the world. So we need to grow that, both in terms of money and the people who are using that. But at the same time, if you look at how Africa is moving forward, recently we agreed and signed African continent of free trade area, which covers 44 countries of 55. So that's good progress. Yet to consolidate the 44 countries sort of customs union. But that has implications. Therefore, these transactions as they happen, playing into a much bigger market. And recently, there is also another move to create a single digital identity that will bring in all Africans and have standardized policies to do with that. All that serves these kinds of. How does that make that much easier? It makes it much easier. So already things are happening within countries themselves. But then across Africa. So the end goal would then be a free trade area, particularly for small businesses, done with digital identity cards across Africa. That's a pretty bold goal. Yes, lady here, second row. My name is Vanilla Munchane. I'm a young global leader from South Africa. Two questions, firstly, just to confirm that while at the beginning the flows would be between Africa and China, that this can end up being a platform that helps Africans trade with one another. The second question, President Kagame, what advice would you give to other presidents on the continent who might be reluctant to join the platform? So first question, yes, it is from China to Africa first, because China has 1.4 billion people. And China, I convinced my ministers and prime ministers to give us some chance to test. So they say, all right, this is the first time they give us the experience to test. So we import more from Africa. But every hub finally will connect. So we have a hub in Africa, Rwanda. We have a hub in Belgium. We have a hub in Malaysia. We hope from Rwanda to Malaysia to Belgium, in the future maybe Thailand. We also do things like that. And then there will be more hubs in Africa. And then Africa internal can go. All the hubs will be connected. That's the plan. Mr. President, what would your advice be to perhaps more reluctant presidents? I think the best way to approach it is to maybe to deal with any other problem like that, is to show people what they benefit by doing certain things and what they lose by not doing so. This is the only thing we can do. And I'm sure all African leaders and the other Africans want what works for them, what can benefit them. I think there are many cases you can learn from before where Africans have come together and have agreed to do certain things because they know that is what the Africans want and that's what benefits them. So I think the discussion is already ongoing. This is why in forging an African continent to a free trade area, there were discussions before that. They understand the implications, they understand the benefits. So that's why so many signed up in a single day, we had 44 countries, over 55 signing up to that. The others I'm sure will be coming on board. Maybe they have different issues they have to overcome as we get along. So it's not that we wait for everybody before we move forward, but we move forward with those who can and want to move forward. But we keep trying to show the others that if we moved together, these are the benefits. If we don't, these ones benefit and these ones don't. So that's what we are doing. Thank you. There was another question here. Yes, lady in the second row. And then gentleman in the third row. It's actually a question to both of you. I'm from India in healthcare, but it's not related to this. Jack, what would be, I love your vision and you make it sound so credible possible, but what is the country risk, the political risk? And that's what I would ask you also. Suppose at the next president doesn't subscribe to this. That's one. And I think that we've seen that in India that opened up e-commerce and really adopted it. And all of a sudden, the pressure of the local traders that said this doesn't work for us. And all of a sudden, they've changed the rules. So what happens at that time? Great question. Gentleman. Well, that is why I'm quite a busy fronting around and meeting all the presidents at PMs. And my colleagues, are you a business people or you're a politician? You're talking to everyone. In Africa, the hope for every developing country is the four E. I say four T's and four E's. E, first, you have to have education. Every country from now, I'll have to think it through that the current education system that we teach our kids will not be able to create jobs for our kids in the future because robots, artificial intelligence, they will be much smarter. So everything you teach the kids how to remember, how to calculate faster, it's gone. So the education, second E is entrepreneurs. We have to have a lot of entrepreneurs who believe in the future. The entrepreneurs believe in the future. They're most of the other. If they do not believe in the future, they'll never be able to become an entrepreneur. The next is E-frustructure, not infrastructure. We should put electronic infrastructure, making sure that every young people can be able to reach the internet. It's as important as the, and the fourth is E-government. We are pushing government on the internet. So, I'm meeting, I met over 20,000 government officers two years ago, one year. They're just like, I'm meeting government officers every day. My job is, I don't want any policy and anything just, this is the way we do business. And you see the young government officers, they start using mobile and they think it's good. And it will come. But by saying one thing, the policy makers, this is what exactly happened, this is human being always happening. 1860s, there's a bill in the UK called the Ref Flag Bill. That is when car was built. The horsemen at that time called white collar person. They hate this. They went to the government and said, stop the cars. The cars will kill people on the road. And if you let the cars come, all the horsemen are losing jobs, the society is gonna, then the government passed a bill called the Ref Flag. There is a Ref Flag in front of every car that you are not allowed to drive more than seven miles per hour. And you have to follow a horse. That stopped the industry. So this is what I think a lot of government is doing that. And our job is to make them online. So they cannot do that. Well, on my part, I'm in politics, but without the standard definition of being a politician. Because I understand also that my reason for being in politics is actually to enable business people do business and succeed. Second, people are elected, they become leaders because the, among other things, tell people what they intend to do. They want to bring change or no change to something. But the voters also who vote people out of power or bring them to power do so on the basis of what they believe in, whether this change is good for them or the status quo isn't good for them. So, and you are right in saying that in most of these things we do, there is a need for predictability, there is a need for sustainability. But the fact is, I think with what is happening, once the people are benefiting, then they would want to stay with the kind of things that benefit them. In this case, where the small and medium enterprises and the people involved and the jobs that are involved, once they've been created and they have tested that, do they really want this to be changed? If there comes a leader who wants to change this, maybe actually he won't come in the first place. He will not elect this leader. Or if he's there, if he wants to change these things that benefit them, he may end up in trouble. So, but we have to do what we think is good and works. And this is an extraordinarily bold initiative. I know there are lots of other questions. I'm so sorry we're out of time. So unfortunately, we have to leave it there. But at a time when, as you say, there is a lot of worry in Europe, it is great to hear such a bold and ambitious strategy. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Put us through wait and let our two speakers leave. That would be great.