 Welcome and aloha. My name is Mark Schlaufe. I am the host of think tech Hawaii's law across the sea program Today we're staying in Honolulu and talking with Loretta Sheehan Loretta Sheehan is presently an attorney in private practice at the law firm of Davis Levin Livingston He's also a member of the Honolulu Police Commission That's where her quote style in quote has made the news Miss Sheehan previously served as a US attorney for the district of Hawaii Prosecuting criminal cases. She has described her style as quote very direct up front and some point confrontational Which she attributes to her time as a prosecutor. Well, we'll get into that In a minute. Welcome miss Sheehan Thank you Okay, all right, okay Loretta now before we Talk about recent news of the Honolulu Police Commission and your involvement there before we dive into that Please tell me a little bit about your professional background how you got to Hawaii and what type of work you do now as a lawyer Okay, let me start by saying that any views or opinions I expressed today are mine and not necessarily that of the police commission But as to me I grew up in New York I went to Georgetown Law School and met a guy who was from Hawaii Mark Matanaga. We got married moved back to Hawaii I joined the prosecutor's office under Chuck Marsland and Worked there for 10 years and then I went over to the US Attorney's office and became an assistant US Attorney under Steve Alm I worked there for 14 years doing mostly drug crime Violent crime on bases An assortment of things and then and then about 11 years ago I came over and started working in the civil world for Davis, Northern Livingston Wow, so you've done all types of cases Criminal civil and the whole background and it sounds like litigation was a lot of it What motivates you as a lawyer? I mean what what why did you know? Yeah Obviously seem to like it I really I love the idea that you can do something to Make life more fair for people that you can help people You know what's up when I was in college? I once asked a guy who was he was He was in the law school and I said what what do you like about law school? Like what what are you why are you doing it? And he said to me the most interesting thing that really stuck with me to this day He said it's like when I look at society. He says it's like because he had a background on music. He said it's like I I see a Big musical score like a big orchestra a big masterpiece and we're all Running around and creating this music this sound. He says but lawyers are the only ones who actually get to read the score We get to actually read the notes and read the crescendos and decrescendos He says I love that part that we actually sort of get the code We actually get to read it and I thought and that really stuck with me I thought yeah, that's kind of what we do and that's how you can help people Like by knowing the rules and explaining the rules and then working with them. Is there one particular case in your career? I mean you've had a Career over many years and different types of cases. Is there one case that sticks out or there are there many I guess but is there one case that you could tell us about that? kind of Makes you proud to be a lawyer Um the one that comes to mind is a case we litigated a couple years ago and it was 32 men who took on Commitment at schools for the their sexual abuse when they had been high schoolers at the hands of dr. Robert Brown the school's psychiatric advisor it was really meaningful and Amazing to to stand next to these men and watch them exercise such courage to face a trauma that had just about destroyed their lives and To take on huge powerful Interest institution in the state of Hawaii That is Bishop estate and to come out and to win Or to to have a successful results and to have it acknowledged most importantly by the school that this happened And that these men had been hurt and that they were sorry That was so meaningful to me. It was I I was such an honor to be with them throughout that litigation kind of gave you a Deep breath I mean to be a lawyer and something that Yeah, it's like this is what we're supposed to do This is what the practice is supposed to be like it was it was beautiful and helping people and Okay, got it now You've been in the news about being on the Honolulu police commission So tell tell us a little bit and I and with the understanding that these are your opinions only What well for first what is the Honolulu police commission all about what is it? What does it do and what does it see? It's it's one of the many boards and commissions that exist in the city and county of Honolulu and what we do We're a volunteer board seven people. We're all appointed by the mayor for five-year terms and We our job is to hire Fire and discipline the chief of police to review citizen complaints against police officers And to review the rules and regulations of the police department. So that's what we're mandated to do okay, and You say you were appointed by the mayor and right volunteers. So I guess You know You don't get paid No How did it come about that the mayor selected you and appointed you to be on the Honolulu police commission and Why would you do something and not get paid? I mean You're in the news and you're spending a lot of time Why do it so so how did you get appointed and why do it for nothing for free? Very crazy Oh, well, I do it because I love my home. I love the people here in Honolulu and And I have you know, and I just really thought I could help I have a background in law enforcement I met with the mayor. He didn't know me at all and what happened was Yeah, right. It's a it's kind of in the past been considered a political plum You you get elected and you put your friends on boards and you know But he didn't know me at all and so what happened was Ray soon his then chief of staff knew me and they were looking for somebody and Ray Said apparently said to the mayor. Well, how about this gal? She used to be over at the U.S. Attorney's Office I mean she was prosecutor and lawyer and at the time it was acknowledged that Chief K. Loja was under federal investigation and so they so Ray Called me up and said do you want to meet with the mayor? Do you want to would you be would you be consider being on the board and are on the commission? So I said sure and I met with the mayor and I told him exactly what I thought and he said, yeah, that's fine Go ahead do it. So So then I got sworn in and that's how I joined the commission. Okay, and yeah, and I his interest He said you told him exactly what you thought. Well, okay. It's been said that your quote style is outspoken You raise issues that other colleagues prefer not to raise or ignore and that you're somewhat confrontational and Someone who speaks truth to power. Those are all quotes that I've read in the newspaper About you. Are they true? Are they correct? And I mean, is that your style? What is your style? You know, I Guess I I always knew I was somewhat direct. I mean, I I know I'm a litigator. I really strive for clarity um I was surprised to find that I was so far outside the box when it came to social norms I and I'm still kind of surprised because to me it was It's perfectly natural. It's perfectly normal to see something and say, hey, wait a minute What like what like what, you know? um But apparently a lot of people don't do that or uncomfortable doing that and um So it's it's been a learning curve for me as well. I thought I was I really thought I was pretty normal And uh, I guess I learned uh, I'm not okay, so so, um your Style being outside the box a little bit And you and that's you think that comes from being a prosecutor maybe and just Being you know, someone who goes and argues their case in front of a judge and has to maybe not Conform to what everybody else is saying Well, that's that's the practice law right is that someone takes a position and takes an alternative position And so every single day someone tells me no, you're wrong and I tell someone else no you're wrong and we know its ability and um, but it's but it's with the with the idea that we're going to get to An end results. We're going to get to Justice for our clients or as close to justice as we can come So I think I'm just much more used to being very blunt and plain spoken um, there's just no point in mints and words or beating around the bush. Um In my world, but I can appreciate that maybe there is More need for grace in other worlds so Okay, all right, and so you appreciate both sides and sometimes uh I guess politics says uh be act differently, but um, a lot of the the uh, uh, comments about your quote style have been about the uh, Kloha retirement agreement and your comments about that and you you were the sole person on the Honolulu police commission to vote against the uh, retirement agreement and so um, I mean what what is your opinion about the, uh Uh, Kloha chief police Kloha's retirement agreement. Uh, what were your feelings about it? At the time What what what were your thoughts? Right. Well, uh, at the time I said what I meant. I I thought it was unnecessary expensive and very likely undeserved. Um And I still feel that way. It it was completely unnecessary so We had a troubled police department. We had Uh, the chief was under investigation. The chief had caused a mistrial uh, the There were questions that could be asked. There was also a separate and apart from the whole mailbox trial issue And the possible framing of Gerard Juana there. I had deep concerns about recent lawsuits That were resolved where there was police misconduct And where there were there didn't appear to be any consequences. Um, I was in particular appalled I remember back in 2016 being really appalled at the treatment of two lesbian women who were on the North Shore in, uh, a supermarket and they had kissed and and um Basically got arrested for being lesbian and held in jail And the officer who arrested them was Allowed them to retire and good standing and there was there just didn't appear no one blinked an eye and I thought Am I crazy? This is the United States of America. We have like civil liberties here like we you know and Things like that and then there were other police officers where it was it was documented misconduct. There was um And and I was really concerned about the Uh the way the department was being administered So my solution was in light of all these concerns was Let's have as is required by the charter. Let's have a for cause hearing And that's a hearing where you afford everybody to do process to have a hearing you tell the employee Hey, here's what we're concerned about here's where we think that you you may have, um Uh Not acted in the best interests of the department You may have really whiffed on this one And to ask for answers and explanations and if you don't receive them Then say, I'm sorry. This isn't this isn't working out and the time has come to part ways Now the downside of if we're cause hearing where you fire somebody is that there can be subsequent litigation people often don't like being fired So my solution was a little stickier a little more Time and work intensive But it was free and I thought it would be a good practice to go through it And the rest of the commission just simply wanted to pay a severance package and have him leave Okay, well, we're going to take a break and then I want to go into a little more details About that severance package and your specific concerns about it So we'll take a short break and then we'll be right back and go into a little more detail. Okay All right. Thank you Hello, I'm Dave Stevens host of the cyber underground. This is where we discuss everything that relates to computers It's just kind of scare you out of your mind So come join us every week here on think tech Hawaii com 1 p.m On friday afternoons and then you can go see all our episodes on youtube Just look up the cyber underground on youtube all our shows will show up and please follow us We're always giving you current relevant information to protect you Keep in you safe. Aloha Aloha, I'm keisha king host of at the crossroads where we have conversations that are real and relevant we have spoken with community leaders from Right here locally in hawaii and all around the world Won't you join us on think tech hawaii.com or on youtube on the think tech hawaii channel Our conversations are real relevant and lots of fun I'll see you at the crossroads. Aloha Welcome back My name is mark schlauwe. I am the host of think tech hawaii's law across the sea Program and we are talking with loretta shihan And loretta you're you're back and I wanted you to talk a little bit About you know, you talked about the severance package and the retirement agreement with Chief of police ke aloha, you know, you mentioned that you wanted to have a fore cause hearing I guess in order to get the facts out But the rest of the Police commission and I'm not trying to cause any friction here, but I mean they they felt a settlement package was was the better way out of this So what were your specific concerns? and you know That you thought about and that you raised About the about the severance package and the retirement agreement And and we have a start of the retire the first page at least of the retirement agreement at some point. Yeah Um, you know, actually I did not raise it at the time because it did not occur to me at the time and steve levenson mentioned it to me after the fact But one concern is that you know, we might not have had the authority to enter it into this retirement agreement at all Because our powers are enumerated in the city charter And the city charter says we can hire we can fire we can You know review citizen complaints. We can review rules and regulations. It does not say we can spend hpd money It does not say that we can Uh, we can create severance packages. It we I'm not really sure Why people thought we had the authority to do this. I think everybody assumed We had the authority to do this good because we could fire the Chief but the thing is this isn't firing. This is giving him a lot of money And so I wish I thought of it at the time, but I did not but that's one concern that I have retrospectively um I think people could debate both sides of that issue. Um But um, and then when I but at the time I did raise something I didn't like the idea this we had a chief who was under federal investigation He might actually be convicted of very serious felonies So I didn't like the idea that we were just going to give him a bunch of money with this like clawback provision that If he ever eventually was you know, the final final final appeal Came down if it happened within six years, we would claw back the money Well at that point he wouldn't have any money and we couldn't take it out of his pension under state law So, um, I was talking to my my partner mark davis and he said well, uh, about options in terms of when someone's going to be fired and how it can be done and it uh He talked about the one of which I thought would work well in this situation about Buying an annuity that sometimes companies buy an annuity Um, and so this is the way it would work the sitting counter could buy an annuity and when chief keloha left the annuity would start paying out To chief keloha, but the moment that that a verdict came down that he was guilty of anything Then the beneficiary would automatically revert to the sitting county of Honolulu and we would go through an appeal process And if he lost every single one of those appeals the sitting county would just keep the money But if he if his conviction was reversed then we could have the beneficiary revert back to Chief keloha and we start all over again and in that way we're not chasing after money There's an automatic reversion part of the annuity and I thought that was a great idea and so I brought it to Uh, I brought it to the attention of uh, don leon our lawyer and she didn't want to hear it She was she wasn't having it so so your your idea was you know Hey, I'm if he if he's clean And if if he's not then the money comes back to the city Basically, I may not be stating it exactly The benefit of that is there's no lawsuits. There's just an automatic reversion so If like for example when he was when the verdict came in and he was found guilty like Bang sitting county would start getting with checks instead of louis keloha So I thought it was a great idea, but nobody nobody else did And yeah, and it sounds fair too. I mean and I guess the question that comes up in everybody's mind is why pay him anything. I mean, uh Why $150,000? How did that come about or do you mean? How did the figure come from do you know? I can only guess it came. I don't know. I was not I did not negotiate this deal It was negotiated by don leon and max sword and I can only imagine that the number came from Kevin samita I don't know though You know, but the reason that I heard on the other side and the reason that max said in his press conference that we entered this was Because it was time to move on and the department was hurting and we needed to just put the pass behind us And that was that was the rationale Who's money was that by the way? Who's Where did the $250,000 come from? Who's money was that? HPD's Again, and that's another really strange thing because my understanding of the budget process is that they have line items And so they they have to tell the city council the year before like, okay, we're going to spend $125,000 on guns or you know, and they have to have a line item And they don't have any slush funds. And so Yeah, it begs the question like well Why how come they suddenly had $250,000 line around like where that comes from and I don't I to this day I really don't know because I should what did with the I mean, I guess I so I hear you saying that the other commissioners felt that it's time to move on and you know, let's get this off of our table and start fresh with a new police chief and That was worth it. Uh, I guess and uh, what what did um, I mean and that is that what we is that what the city got back is Is a clean slate start over is is that how it was uh said um I well well, um Yeah Yeah, he let he went away. Uh, he left the position and we then got to engage in a Selection process and we got a new chief and we we did that it accelerated that process So, you know that we did get that And there was a lawsuit recently filed Against uh, Louis K. Aloha for an attempt to get the money back. Is there any What do you have in it? Do you have an opinion a personal opinion about whether there's much Chance to get that those funds back Uh, you know, I don't know how much time he's going to do Um, uh, so let's assume that he never works again. Um so Yeah, it would be very very difficult to get any money out of him. I understand that like we're kind of last in line There's a lot of people he owes money to So I I would not be that hopeful if he does work. However, um, you know, uh We could possibly Put means against a new salary um It's gonna be hard to collect. Okay. So all right. All right. And and so you spoke out, um Yeah, I I I can feel you have great respect for the other commissioners and uh feel that you know They they had their own Opinion also and you you spoke out and that's how your quote style in quote Got in um What what have you learned from from this experience? What have um Revolved for being on the police commission and from going through all of this. What have you You know personally and professionally learned You know I've really learned the importance of transparency. I mean I I I was kind of appreciated. They're like, yeah Government should be transparent and then democracy people need to know what's going on And then when you actually are involved in it and you see people Trying to keep things behind closed doors and trying to keep things secret and And there are closed doors meetings and there are things that are kept secret you know, I this whole experience taught me that it is vital to have transparency in government that um People with power will behave a different way when they are exposed to public life It literally they will behave differently And while I I always cognitively believe that before this experience now it's like in here like now i'm like, yeah That is for sure. So that that that was my own personal takeaway, which is a little bit selfish. Um That that was that's just speaking for myself the the um The other part that I really appreciated that I learned which I just love is I learned a lot about my community I mean, I always cared for my home and for Honolulu But I just again like them the former students of Kamehameha schools I saw tremendous courage out there and tremendous honesty and just a tremendous love for You know the rule of law and and for justice I mean that is as a lawyer when you learn that other people actually care about the right results and they care about justice That is completely inspirational and what I hear you saying too is that um You actually learned Something you believed. I mean you had the experience that kind of backed up Uh, yeah, you're your internal feelings about certain issues and now you've gone through it Yeah, right. Yeah, and then and you're like wow no kidding Well, okay I'm sorry. Do you do you intend to stay in public service like this? Is this something that I mean, uh, You know Is this something that you want to do? Are you I mean, is this something that you feel is important for you? Yeah, yeah, I I love public service. I I always have and that's why I love being a prosecutor Um, not say I don't love private practice, but that's why I was so willing to serve public services Kind of in my dna. Um, so I'll continue to find ways to serve um the community Wherever I'm best wherever I'm needed really Well, let me ask you a loaded question All right. Is I mean do you have any? aspirations to um Run for any office or anything like that. Is that something that? uh You would consider or Want to do yeah in the future. How do you feel about that? Well, um, you know, my ex-husband was in politics and my former father-in-law was in politics so I got to see the inside of the political world and Um, so I have great respect for people who are in politics and it's it's hard. It's hard life and you uh Well, for some there's some characters. I don't have a whole lot of respect for but I I do for the vast majority of politicians um, so my answer is um, never say never but I think that my Strength is not necessarily working from the inside. Um as an As part of the machine if you will that maybe that I've learned kind of maybe my I'm best suited on the outside Um asking why is that? What are we doing? Okay, all right. And and with that we'll we'll conclude our program because you just answered the question of what your style is and Talked about that and uh, you know, we I I think I speak for a lot of people that say we appreciate your style It's good to have uh somebody that talks Truth to power. So thank you for being my guest today Uh, I appreciate your service and we'll look forward to uh having you Uh hearing about your style some more aloha my next adventure. Thank you mark. I really enjoyed it Okay