 We are live. Welcome back to another episode of China, Hawaii, and you. I am your host, Andrew Zimmerman. And today, we are very happy to be talking to Shauna Yong Ryan. She's going to be telling us a lot of really interesting stuff about Taiwan. So very much on the show, we've been interested in some of the political dynamics going on in mainland China, but we've never actually really sat down and talked about what's going on with Taiwan. I believe that there's a lot that we can learn out of Taiwan when it comes to our analysis of mainland China. But before that, I'm going to let our guest introduce herself. Shauna, do you want to say a little bit to the audience and tell everybody about what the work that you do? Hi, Andrew. Thank you for having me. I teach English at UH Manoa, particularly creative writing, and I'm the author of a book called Green Island, which is a novel set in Taiwan over most of the 20th century. And I understand that you're working on a really interesting project called our Taiwanese American story. Is that the correct name? Yes, it's a website. It's sort of like StoryCorps with NPR. So we've been collecting stories of people's experiences in Taiwan, particularly under martial law. Yeah. Well, yeah. One thing I say to my guest on this show is that we're always very excited to promote people's work. So I actually did have a look myself at our Taiwanese American Stories website. I thought some of the stuff was really cool, and I especially liked what you said about how the purpose is having kind of younger generation Taiwanese Americans interview the older people that live through it. And I think in this way, history is very much kept alive in a way that wouldn't really carry the same weight if you just read it off of a pedia. Right. Yes. I mean, we started it because I was teaching at a Taiwanese American summer camp, and we just realized that the young people had a lot of questions about what their parents experienced or grandparents experienced, and there wasn't a lot of conversation between the two generations. So we wanted to help facilitate that. Yeah. That's very, very, very cool. So the very first thing that I would want to know about Taiwan is, can you tell us a little bit about what was Taiwan like directly before and after the arrival of the Kuomintang? And I should say just for a little bit of context for people who really don't know much about how the country was founded. There was a big civil war in China in the early part of the 20th century. It was between the dominant, what is now dominant is the Chinese Communist Party, and the pre-existing party, which was the Kuomintang. And there was a mass evacuation out to Taiwan. So can you tell us a little bit about what Taiwan was like before there was this evacuation? And what was it like after the Kuomintang's arrival? Yes. Well, from 1895 to 1945, Taiwan was a colony of Japan. Japan also had Korea as a colony, but they considered Taiwan their quote-unquote crown jewel colony, and they did a lot of infrastructure improvement. They enforced Japanese language learning, had people change their names to Japanese. I mean, it was very much a colonial state, and of course people were eager to get out of that colonial state. And so the end of World War II, Japan had to give up its colonies, and then the Kuomintang, the KMT, came into Taiwan in 1945. But like you said, because there was a civil war going on, the KMT was very focused on that war in China, and they came to Taiwan. I mean, there's a couple of things to think about. One, because Taiwan had been under Japanese rule for 50 years, that's two and a half generations, and the Chinese had been at war with Japan. They didn't have a good relationship, so they were pretty mistrustful of the Taiwanese. They felt like they had been brainwashed by the Japanese. So there was mistrust there. There was language difference because people in Taiwan spoke Japanese, or Taiwanese, you know, they didn't speak Mandarin. And then they had fairly good infrastructure, factories and things like that. So the Kuomintang used those materials to sort of help fund and support the war in China, which led to a degradation of material conditions in Taiwan, and created a lot of resentment between the original people of Taiwan and the Kuomintang that had come in. So, you know, one of the things that you touched on right at the end of that is, there's a lot of things you talked about that I want to get to, but one of the things that you touched on that I really liked was that Taiwan did have, I guess, for lack of a better word, indigenous people that lived there before the arrival of the Kuomintang. Is that correct? They're indigenous people. There are also Han-descended Taiwanese, which were who were different than the indigenous Taiwanese who are Austronesian descent. So yeah, there are a variety of people. Now, do they, in today's Taiwan, do they have kind of a, this is not a question we sent you, but do they have kind of like a similar relationship to, say, aboriginals in Australia or Native Americans on the mainland, like in the modern Taiwan? In that it's a complicated relationship, and yeah. And I mean, Japan had modeled its dealings with the indigenous people of Taiwan on how the U.S. had dealt with Native American population. So, you know, it was violent. It was not respectful. So it is a very complicated history and violent history. Yeah, yeah, it sounds really brutal. We won't go too much into the, I'm sure there's many, many brutal stories that we could hear about that is kind of really more painful aspects of history. But then I'd asked when the Womendong arrived into Taiwan, it's, I would assume, and again, I have no idea about this, but I would assume that with the indigenous people, they didn't just say, okay, sure, establish a government superseding ours. And I would imagine there was a pretty substantial amount of resistance. Is that the case? Right. And so my research and my writing has focused on the Womendong relationship with who we would call the Taiwanese. And of course, right now, Taiwanese refers to everyone in Taiwan. But at that point, we'll use it to refer to the Honda-sended Taiwanese, not necessarily the indigenous people, the indigenous groups. So the Honda-sended people would be the aboriginals, for lack of a better word. No, they would be the Taiwanese. And the indigenous people would just be the indigenous, quote, unquote, aboriginals, right? Okay. So those are whole different ethnic groups. And then we have the Taiwanese. And that's usually who people are talking about when they talk about this post-World War II history. And there was hope that they were going to be able to establish their own government. And that was a lot of the hope that was carried in when the Womendong came that the Taiwanese thought we can rule ourselves. And we don't have to be under colonialism anymore. And, you know, those hopes were dashed very quickly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Was there any kind of like a war, would you say? Or was it just sort of like a kind of just scuffles that ended pretty quickly? So what happened was they, the Taiwanese were pretty excited initially for the Womendong to come and say goodbye to the Japanese and greeted them. They sent their kids out on the day that the troops were supposed to arrive. They sent them out with ROC flags, Republic of China flags, and that's Womendong, and to greet them. And then they just were sorely disappointed. They found out that troops were very like ragged and worn down from years of war. They weren't really well funded. There are a lot of rural people who didn't have like sort of a sophistication of like the people of Taipei who had been living in this big city and very modernized. And then there was just a lot of corruption. There's a lot of inflation and tensions were boiling. And then what happened, and we're coming actually up on the 75th anniversary of this event next week, is that there was a woman selling black market cigarettes, a Taiwanese woman selling black market cigarettes in Taipei. And some monopoly bureau agents tried to confiscate her cigarettes and she resisted because it was her livelihood and they beat her. They accidentally shot a bystander and it just like set off the crowd and they surrounded the monopoly bureau agents. You know, there's big unrest came and then that started protests. It started days of protests. That was shut down. Martial law was declared. This wasn't the martial law that was later declared for 38 years, but a martial law was declared for this time period. And the governor general sent a message to Chiang Kai-shek in China saying, we need help to control the situation. Like the Taiwanese are sick of what's happening with you know, the Kuomintang soldiers and these were unruly. And so Chiang Kai-shek a couple weeks later sent in troops and they just started arresting and massacring. Anybody they thought might be a problem for the new government. Mostly the elite of society, doctors, lawyers, professors. And that was called the two to eight massacre, sometimes the march massacre. Yeah, thousands of people disappeared during that time. So yeah, there was a very bloody what's it called? It was a massacre. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's okay. Sometimes history isn't pretty. You know, but you know, when people think about large periods of political repression, right, like it's, you know, unfortunately, the 20th century, there's a lot to pick from. All right, you have, you know, the Nazi Germany, you have the Stalinist purges. But one of the things I think if you ask people to name something in a name political repression in 20th century, you hear Maoism a lot. Like that's sort of like the kind of go to. And one of the things that I've wondered is how would martial law under Chiang Kai-shek have looked like relative to what they were going in under the Cultural Revolution? Because I can tell you when I was in China, you know, people, there's certain things that you can and can say in China, this is this is just this is just common knowledge, right? But more than anything, people will acknowledge that like something like Wenhua, like the Great Leap Forward in the Cultural Revolution was just a very painful time for everybody. So I guess what I want to know is how would, you know, how would something like the martial law under Chiang Kai-shek compare to that? And maybe more aptly, how would modern Taiwanese people look at that time? Because there's some places, like I've noticed this is true in Russia, where if people are particularly loyalists to a government, they'll just say, well, we needed to purge anyway, because there were like traders in the midst or capitalist insurrectors or something like that. So I guess what I would so to wrap that question up is basically, one, how would you say that those compare? And two, how would modern Taiwanese people look at the time? Well, that period is called the white terror. You know, almost 200,000 people were arrested. Many of them were executed. They were sent to political prisons. I think modern Taiwan is coming to terms with it. They don't look, I don't think people look back on that period as necessary. I think it was very unnecessary. And both China and Taiwan were under authoritarian governments. Interestingly, I mean, ironically, because Taiwan was considered free China, you know, by the US and by the West, and they were willing to support Chiang Kai-shek, even though he was a dictator because he wasn't Mao. And so they kind of look the other way when he was doing all, you know, these repressive things like arresting all his opponents or any sort of threat to his rule. So it was a very repressive environment. Of course, the government structure is very different and the societal structure is very different. But, you know, similarly to China, like you would be asked to report on your neighbors, report on people who didn't tow the party line, you know, children might be turned against their family members or not, you know, if they heard their family members not speaking Mao Chiang Kai-shek, I think it was similar in China about, you know, Mao is the sun and you better acknowledge that, like the sun in the sky, you know. Yeah. So there are similarities that way. Okay. But maybe this would be difficult to quantify. But would you say that like both times it was roughly equally dangerous to be alive in such an era? I mean, the population of China is so much larger. I mean, the population of Taiwan right now is 23 million, which is the same as Australia. So it's fairly large country by that time, maybe three million, you know. So I don't know. It is hard to quantify and I'm not an expert in China. So I, you know, I know a bit about the Mao period. I don't know how to draw more specific comparisons, but. No, no, no, that's very fair. Because, yeah, of course these things are like very difficult to quantify and you can just like count who got arrested more because maybe those numbers are made up or maybe like there's like per capita things to consider, right? Like it's, it is very difficult to like genuinely quantify the question of like which time would have been more dangerous to sort of just try to exist and, you know, try to have some measure of freedom and like not have to worry about maybe a relative disappearing in the night. But yeah, it's, but it seems that over the last couple of decades, right, these memories of martial law in Taiwan are nearly completely forgotten. You know, people will point to modern Taiwan as if it were this paragon of democracy, we'll say paragon of Western democracy. And I think, you know, certainly if you were to compare it to many parts of Asia, including maybe PRC, that would be correct, right? But it seems to me that this is a, one of those periods of repression that's just completely forgotten about, you know, like I, it's not hard to find people from the Maoist era or the Stalinist era or even Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, but it seems like very, very little of the public of public consciousness is aware of this white terror period. So what would you say is the reason for that? Like, do you, is it just Taiwan is, well, not technically an ally, but, you know, let's be real here. Would you say that that kind of gives them a pass for why they escape criticism? I think there are a few things at work. One thing is, you know, when I've mentioned that I have family in Taiwan or I have a friend with me from Taiwan, people say, I love Thai food. I love Pad Thai. So I think a lot of people just don't even realize Taiwan exists, you know, we're talking about the US. So there's just that ignorance, not even knowing about Taiwan or its position in the world or how important it is. And then I think also what you mentioned that a lot of people were looking the other way during that time because they're like politicians were so eager to have a relationship with Taiwan versus China that that was overlooked, unfortunately. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Well, you know, the name of the show that we started, I was really proud of this name was Taiwan Light and Shadow. And we spent a lot of time talking about the shadow part of Taiwan, but I want to spend a little bit more time talking about, you know, what happened that made Taiwan this, you know, as I said in the show, a democratic miracle, it seems to me that countries like Taiwan, they tend to be military dictatorships forever, right? There's it's very difficult to imagine political circumstances that could have forced some sort of democratization or could have forced a ruling party to of its own accord give up power. So what happened? How did that how did that kind of massive changes come to take place? Yeah, I mean, it is pretty amazing. But you know, I say in my book that people think of it as a bloodless revolution, but it wasn't bloodless. You know, like I said, hundreds of thousands of people were arrested and executed during the white terror. So people were making sacrifices. There were protests along the way, I think that are just not well known. There are a lot of famous incidents in Taiwan's history. There was somebody who worked for sort of an opposition magazine and his children were killed by people think by KMT forces in their apartment with their throat slit, you know, things like that. So there was in the 1970s. But Taiwan was also investing in technological, in technology in their economy, you know, the Taiwan miracle becoming one of the four tigers. So they also had this idea like every household would be a factory. I think the and also the second largest like Barbie factory in the world was in Taiwan at that point. So I think that that was happening. It was getting closer to the world. And then Chiang Kai-shek passed away. His son took over and his son began this process of bringing more Taiwanese into political power and, you know, basically molded his successor who was Donghui, who was Taiwanese and who was elected president, the first, you know, Taiwanese president. And so some of it was done from top down. But also there were a lot of protests along the way and a lot of resistance along the way that, you know, just wasn't seen as much by the outside world. Yeah, you know, that that's one thing that I did read about from, you know, the research that I did on the before this piece was that it seemed to me that the largest factor that actually explains Taiwan's successful democratic revolution is just Chiang Kai-shek happening to die and his son happening to kind of like democracy, right? Like that that seems like such a it seems like just such an oversimplification as to how a country can suddenly turn make such a democratic miracle that Taiwan did, right? But yeah, I mean, it kind of feels like sometimes that's those sort of things happening, like just, you know, the ruler happening to just die of old age. That might that might be, you know, it's like, like you said, not that Taiwan's revolution was bloodless, because clearly there's a lot of bodies that are that just got racked up as a result of this time. But, you know, when we think of revolutions, right, they are almost always bloody and in some in some extent. And, you know, the the relinquishment of power, fortunately, it didn't come with like storming the parliament or something like that. It just it just came by some sense luck, because I feel like if it was true that let's say Chiang Kai-shek's son happened to align with them a little bit more politically that we very much well could be continuing to see a white terror to this day. Yeah, I guess that that is possible. Yeah. And yeah, so it wasn't one revolution, one moment in time revolution, but very yeah, spread out long term revolution. Okay. So what do you think of when we're looking at the People's Republic of China? Do you think that there's anything we can learn from what happened in Taiwan when it comes to how like optimism that can be held for a democratic democratic People's Republic of China? Well, I think like you were just saying, a lot depends on leadership. And I think it's an especially the place as large as China a lot is going to depend on leadership. China is very good at suppressing any sort of dissent. Sure. And not letting it not letting it grow to a point where there could be a revolution. It's hard to imagine right now. The way the thing that I kind of envisioned, though, is, you know, let's imagine Xi Jinping retires in 10 years or or whatever. There's a successor. And for let's also assume that just for just for the sake of it, right? This is just one scenario that I have in my head about what could happen is that this guy was Western educated. You know, maybe he goes to he went to Harvard or something and happened to just really have a deep passion for democracy and bringing it into the modern China. To me, I kind of feel like that's the only scenario in which I see a democratization of the PRC, to be honest with you, because I don't see it coming from, you know, corporate boycotts, or I don't see it coming from sanctions or the UN giving them a strongly worded letter about the Uyghurs. But I don't. But it seems to me that that, like I said, it seems to me that's the only thing that could happen is that they kind of just luck into having a democratic leader. I'm going to I'm going to listen to your experience about it because you have more experience with contemporary China than I do. But I mean, I like that scenario and I hope for it though democracy certainly has its own issues. Sure. Well, like, yeah, I mean, you know, that was definitely something that I had a really hard time in China, talking to people who would criticize the American system, because really all that I had to show for democracy were 300,000 COVID deaths. And that's that kind of puts you in a weird position when you're like personally advocating for your country abroad, right? You know, so sometimes you can you can be tempting to think like, you know, come on, democracy, give me something to work with here. But yeah, no, I definitely do like the story that you've that you've kind of brought to it. We're actually running a little bit low on time. I think I was wondering before we headed out. First of all, I wanted to thank you very much for coming. I wanted to bring up two things. The first one was that you were kind enough to tell me was that today is the 50th anniversary of Richard Nixon going to China and formerly establishing relationships with the PRC. I think that is really, really, really, really cool. And I am greatly optimistic for another 50 years of diplomacy. Or maybe optimistic is wrong, we'll say hopeful. But that's the one thing. And the second thing is just before we let out, I was wondering if you could tell maybe just one story that maybe sticks in your mind about maybe like a substory out of our Taiwanese American stories project that sticks in your mind. So maybe one person's personal experience in the white terror or maybe just one little tidbit that you think is would be really good for listeners to hear. Out of the white terror, I remember hearing stories that when Chiang Kai-shek died, people had to be very effusive in their mourning in their crying and their grieving because if they weren't, their political means would be suspect. So people had to cry and wear black and just really give demonstrations of grief. So there was like a performative mourning. Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say. And I think there's a lot of performativity when you're dealing with authoritarianism. Interesting. I remember thinking exactly the same thing after Kim Jong-il died. But I don't know. Sometimes I think we'll never know because I imagine if you're in that scenario with Kim Jong-il, maybe you really are sad that he's passed away because you genuinely don't know anything else. Right. But then we hear from the Taiwanese that sometimes- Oh, okay. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Because if it's true and from the Taiwanese people that can kind of come out and say, yeah, we had to kind of fake it, then it's probably also true in North Korea. But who knows? All right. Well, that's right about all the time we had for today. Shauna, I wanted to greatly thank you for coming on and telling everybody about this period of time. I really, really like the work that you're doing when it comes to documenting this important part of history. Everybody, if you've got some free time, do check out the website, Our Taiwanese American Story, very, very, very cool. And then Shauna, is there any last parting words you want to tell our audience? Oh, I just want to say thank you to you. And also I just want to tell people that Taiwan exists and it's not Thailand. Remember that. Yeah, I understand why it would be time- They do not speak Thai in Taiwan, okay? No, they don't. No, good news. You can take the exact same Mandarin that you learned on the mainland and go have some fun in Taipei, okay? Great news for you. All right. We want to thank you very much again for coming on and we want to thank our listeners for coming on to another episode of China and Hawaii and you. And we will see everybody in two weeks. Take care. Thank you.