 JSA TV, the newsroom for tech and telecom professionals, and JSA Radio, the voice for tech and telecom on iHeartRadio. I'm Jamie Scarukitaya, and on behalf of my team here at JSA, welcome to our monthly virtual CEO roundtable. These virtual roundtables lead us up to our on-site CEO roundtable at our executive networking event, the telecom exchange. We've reached it out November 6th through the 7th in downtown Los Angeles. More info at feedtelecomexchange.com. Today's roundtable is brought to you by our video collaboration managed services provider, Pinnacle. With your video platform, our panelists and moderator are able to stream in-line video feeds across the world. So, thank you Pinnacle, and thank you to our viewers who are joining us live and to those who are joining us on demand. So, let's go ahead and get started. Today's topic, the state of the subsea cables. Helping us to break this down, I'm honored to introduce our guest moderator and my friend, Mr. Eric Gutschall. He is the founder and CEO of United Cable Company, or UCC. He was also instrumental, of course, with the development and deployment of Hibernia Express, while he was one of the founding fathers of Hibernia Atlantic, that Irish company formed in Summit New Jersey back in 2004. And before then, you probably remember him when he was part of management at Taiko submarine systems, and then back in the early 90s, NCI on Wall Street. So, phenomenal, long-term expert in the subsea space. My friend and yours, Mr. Eric Gutschall. Eric, thanks for being here. The floor is yours, my friend. Thank you, Jamie. I appreciate it. And kudos to GSNA, one of our very first customers at Hibernia. And I got to say it's the leading edge when it comes to PR in our industry for short. So, thank you. Thanks, everyone, for joining me. I've got three longtime friends. Gosh, I've known at least three guys, some of them a better part of 20 years, set cubes away from one guy named Gil Sands-Lees. And I'm my good friend up in Toronto, Mike, and now at Vancouver, 10 who have also known for better part of 20 years. So, I'm going to kick it off with just introducing our panel, talking about everyone. And then we're going to have a few questions for some folks on the state of the subsea. But I'd like to introduce the gentlemen and have them go around and briefly talk about their latest project. So, Mike Cuttingham, CEO, Chief Executive Officer across Lake Fiber. We have Gil Sands-Lees, founder and CEO of New Jersey Fiber Exchange, NJFX, and Ken Thorpe, Chairman and Founder of Cascadia Gateway Corporation out in Vancouver. So, why don't we start, guys, we're going to briefly go down the line. Let us know your latest subsea project or data center built that you're part of and how that will further drive connectivity onto network operators that you would have service. So, Mike, if we could please kick it off. Then we'll go to Gil and then Ken. Sure. Thanks, Eric. Our most recent project is Cross Lake Fiber, which is developing a new cable from Toronto, Canada down to Buffalo, New York. And we're really excited about this project, especially personally for myself because it's in my backyard and it's the first time I've been able to do a project that's really relevant to me as a user. And we're really excited about the project because it brings, for the first time, real dark fiber connectivity on a long-haul basis into Canada. The concept is being around for, I think, the better part of a decade to build through the lake. And I think finally we're well positioned given our background in the subsea space to actually make that happen. What's exciting, I think, about the cable itself is that we are really offering dark fiber, which is the first time you can really get dark fiber. It's a physically diverse route from the existing cable routes that currently connect Toronto down to Buffalo. And it's a lower latency route to get from Toronto down to Buffalo and as well as it's a shorter distance between Toronto and New York City and New Jersey regions, allowing for a lower latency connectivity between those two markets as well. That's great. Thank you very much, Mike. And I guess, you know, with, you know, I just got to ask, what is the age of that fiber that everyone else has laid for us really? The age is, I think, almost 20 years. I think 18, 19 years is the age of the current long-haul fibers or cable that goes between Toronto and Buffalo. So there's definitely, I think, the ability to improve the route with new fiber and new glass. And I think that just helps performance, especially that it's new. There's not a lot of splice points along the way given that it's going through the lake and it's really designed truly for a long-haul route. But I mean, not only long-haul, I mean, you've got two kind of two benefits I see. You're also cutting off half a millisecond from the terrestrial known routes, right? And then you're looking at nearly 100% buried route, which is very uncommon in the Northeast. So I think you've got a low latency play by half a millisecond for the people that want to trade. And I think you also have a diversity play. Absolutely. I mean, the latency play definitely, or the latency improvement, I think definitely is a driver for certain customers that have latency-sensitive traffic, whether it's transactional or financial institutions. And at the same time, you're right, we've developed this really using some of the, you know, the engineering is using some of the best practices that you'd see on your trans-oceanic cables. And we followed that through to the terrestrial builds on the ends as well. So that's the entire route is an underground route and a very high resiliency route, I'd say. That's great. I commend you on such a project. I look forward to seeing how that grows in the future. But I think you've got a winner there for sure. Thanks, Mike. Gil, tell us a little bit about NJFX since our days at MCI and your days of four connections. Now you're on to the data center side. Talk to us. Sure. So to think back in the day when we're selling long distance in 1990, we've come quite a way. Since those days, I started accompanying 2001 and called four connections. And four connections was responsible for building lots of infrastructure across New Jersey. We got to important places like the New York Stock Exchange, the NASDAQ data center facility and trading platforms, New York City, river crossings down all the way across data centers that mattered across New Jersey. But the one area that we could never get into back in the day was the Tyco landing station. Traditionally cable landing station said not for others to come in. It was really meant to take a cable across the ocean, land it and take a single cable to backhaul to a major metro. In our case in New Jersey and for Long Island, that became New York City. It made total sense back in 1980, 1990, maybe even. But with today's needs for diversity, there needs to be ways to access these cables and have direct access to the eight million square feet of data center space we have in New Jersey, have express routes down to Ashburn, Virginia, or just provide multiple ways to get back to New York. So you don't have the issue of losing your diversity or losing your international connectivity. What's also changed is it's no longer these 20 year old consortium cables. We've got brand new systems that are being built and being deployed. Seabrocks arrived here on our campus four months ago. Telecom Italia, Tata, all have capacity on the Seabrocks cable. That cable is the fastest nonstop cable going down to Brazil. Second to that cable is the cable landing in Virginia Beach. That one's called Brusa. That one's going to be on shore the next six to eight months. We hope to have them here also provide additional ways for you to get across the Atlantic Ocean. Most recently, Apocons arrived at NJFX. And what that did is provided customers at NJFX a third way to get to Europe. So what we've really done is created a carrier neutral cable landing station where we were in the meeting room inside Tata's cable landing station, but also have a separate tier three facility that now you can go ahead and start having your equipment and interconnection points as well, whether it's caching applications, whether it's low latency applications, we're agnostic, we're space power and cooling. We try to make sure that all our customers are educated on all the routes that exist. So think of it this way. Sit down with our VP of sales for a bit. He's going to walk you through stick diagrams that show you 20 different ways to get across towards Canada, towards down towards Miami, down towards Virginia Beach, and make sure that the customers can market their assets appropriately. Our job is to provide information. Our job is to allow others to be able to put additional cable landing stations on this property. So after the beginning, one building cable landing station. Day two, NGFX arrives, brand new tier three facility. We're sitting in it today. We're in the lobby today of our conference room. And then now we're going to have 58 acres to work with this continuity, additional data centers, or more cable landing stations. It's really what should have been done in the beginning. And we're going to get Ashburner run for their money. It is a fantastic idea. Joe, I'm flattered by the person that maybe has given you an idea about that. A long, long time ago at Tata. I tried to take a submarine systems, but phenomenal campus in the size of your campus, size of the current data centers. How big? So the current facility is 64,000 square feet. It's a nine megawatt design, high density, low density. We can accommodate customers with various types of requirements. You can take on another sandy or two, I think. So one of the things that people always ask, and as you know, the Tycho landing station, so you're so close to the ocean. What does that mean to you? So when Tycho, and you were part of Tycho back then, when they chose this location, we sit at one of the highest points in New Jersey naturally, 64 feet above sea level. You think of in terms of other important buildings, the White House in the United States is at 43 feet above sea level. Midtown Manhattan's at 34 feet above sea level. We're basically at a mountaintop with this facility in terms of having any issue with water, the ocean, where hurricane five resisted, we're ready for the big one. And even during sandy, there was never an issue here. I just wish our beach houses down the shore fared a little better. I know we both took, I know we both took a beating on that. But thank you, Gil. And lastly, my good friend Ken Thorpe in the west coast of Vancouver, a gentleman I've known for a better part of 20 years. I think I had hair then too. Ken, why don't you take us through your latest projects? I should say projects that kind of connect a little bit like Gil and a lot like Mike with Fiber and Green Data Center. Yeah, sure. Thanks, Eric. And Eric, thanks again for putting this together. I really appreciate it. Thanks you. Thanks to you as well, Jamie. Yeah, what started out as really a very simple build between Vancouver and Seattle has literally morphed into now a cable landing station in Vancouver. Thanks, Eric. That's all your fault. And a data center, 100,000 square foot data center, 20 megawatts power just north of the border. There is no data center close to where that is south of Vancouver. There is not another data center of any size at all. So from a landing station perspective, we've been talking to, we're now right at signing now with the Vancouver Port Authority to actually put a cable landing station right in the port. That'll be the first time in history that that's ever happened. The provincial government here are extremely interested in that. What they would like to see happen is for us to lay up a stoned fiber optic cable up the west coast into Prince Rupert, which is the other deep water port here. So there's a lot of impetus behind getting this landing station done. And at the end of the day, it'll be the only landing station on the west coast of North America that is not in a tsunami zone. That's fantastic. I've got to ask another question similar to what I've asked Mike. What is the age of that fiber? When's the last time there was a fiber build on that quarter? I mean, heck, Microsoft, all they do is talk about the Vancouver to Seattle quarter. When's the last time the new glass has been laid? 23 years ago. Wow. Same kind of bucket that Mike's in. 23 years, 24 years. So it's, well, I think it's a very valuable project. Clearly, the demand is there. And you've got a lot of over the tops that kind of sit on the west coast between the bay and Seattle and Vancouver. And a lot of jobs are moving up to Vancouver. So I think that, at least from Microsoft's perspective, it's a very good project, Ken. Thank you. So it takes me into the question, the second question outside of introductions. I just wanted to know how bandwidth demand and the need for dark fiber played a role for your business models. And what verticals are you seeing the need for this type of capacity? Where are you seeing the demand come from? And I'll start off with Mike again. Yeah, I think that, at least in our instance, dark fiber is the bread and butter of our business. I mean, we're a high fiber cable that will be selling dark fiber to everyone and anyone on the road. So that's really the rational for our build. And I think that we're seeing the demand for dark fiber as opposed to lit capacity from numerous segments of the market. Your OTTs definitely want dark fiber and want to light it themselves. And increasingly carriers are wanting dark fiber as opposed to lit capacity. I think that's definitely something that they would like and the economics don't necessarily make sense. I think on our route, we've designed it from a commercial perspective to really equate to a very low equivalent of lit capacity where you go over that inflection point where it makes sense to get dark fiber. And as well, I think we see it from the financial services industry where the ability to control that route and have an increased level of security on it as financial institutions start to build out their own fiber routes really much more broadly than they have in the past. I think those are the different drivers in our instance for dark fiber. And I would think, given that corridor again, you're leasing 100 gigs anywhere from 12 to 15,000 US dollars a month at a 100 gig level, I think a logical crossover is by two or three 100 gigs at some point it makes good sense to go on the dark fiber end and go your route with the dark fiber IRU. So I think a fantastic business model. I think that's exactly it. It's the ability to have a very low threshold where it makes sense to get dark fiber which can meet all your future requirements without that incremental OPEX. Simply because it's a very low threshold where, like you said, two to three 100G circuits where you really hit that point where it makes economic sense to purchase a dark fiber versus lease capacity. Purchase a dark fiber and push 25 terabits without any evocation. Pretty nice model, very clean. And Gil, thank you, Mike. And Gil, how do you see the bandwidth man? How do you see that playing in dark fiber, clearly dark fiber and your history playing into NJFX? Sure. So I agree with Mike in terms of on the terrestrial side, dark fiber rules, right? Because it allows you certainty in terms of how your route is being done for you. When you buy a lit service, you're kind of susceptible to regrouping of a network. So you buy from a carrier or a lit transport service. You promise diversity day one. They have a situation that happens six months later. They've got to go back now and regroup that network. Your diversity might be lost. So the ultimate solution of diversity is to have your own dark fiber, manage it, and know how it works. Now, obviously, as you get to a location like NJFX and your prosody and line of ocean, you can't always have a pair of fibers across the ocean. But the good news is that those pairs of fibers today that are landing at NJFX, and as you know, we have spare bores that you could use for more cables to come here. They're 21 terabits plus systems. So getting dark fiber to NJFX allows you now to buy seat rocks capacity, TGN1 capacity, TGN2 capacity, upper comms capacity. You're getting lots of optionality. So it's really a home for dark fiber to come from multiple different ways. Get the diversity you need, manage and control your network. How many dark fiber providers do you have coming into the building today? Sure. So between here and Ashburn, we have seven dark fiber routes between four carriers that get you down to Ashburn. Of those carriers, three of them will sell you dark fiber. I'll tease it, the only one not, I'll take that as five. I'll tease and win stream will not sell you dark fiber. That's not really their model, but Cinesis as well as AOL level three will sell you dark fiber. Heading north, Frost River, soon to be coming into the building this September, they're going to have the lowest latency, newest route connecting NJFX to this cable limitation NJFX up north through the exchanges. They're going to be someone that's going to be in demand. And then Xeo sits on the parkway turnpike, so they're going to be up into the parkway turnpike, whether it's Philly, Ashburn, heading up north. And then light towers here, they're always willing to sell dark fiber. As a matter of fact, I put them in the category of also leasing dark fiber going down towards Ashburn. The last location that people are now looking at is Virginia Beach. We're getting multiple requests to connect from here to the beach through Ashburn and bypassing Ashburn. So that's going to be an interesting project because with those two new cables, they're natural partners for NJFX. Virginia Beach, NJFX, and then the landings over in the mountains. They're all part of the triangle of how you cross the Atlantic Ocean. You got plenty of new people like you, like Cross River and Mike and Enzo coming into the building with new fiber, new glass and the beach route. So that's where we're going to end. And again, well far away from Manhattan and the bullet zone, right? Bullseye itself. Good, thanks Gil. And Ken, how, gosh, how does dark fiber play into your business model? What verticals are you seeing come your way and ask you for LOIs on your new system? So I guess there's two different aspects to that. First, there's the relationship between Vancouver and Seattle. And that business relationship is in the tech sector is expanding year over year. We've seen a 50% increase in bandwidth demand year over year for the last four years. And there is no dark fiber left on that route. There's not. Our fiber will be six times greater in capacity than the current one is today. From an international trans-specific perspective there's a lot of Asian money in Vancouver and it's increasing every day. And we're getting now requests for people in or companies in Asia to be able to transit North America without passing through the United States. And perception real or otherwise is that Canada's privacy laws surrounding data sovereignty are more inclined to favor the owner of the data as opposed to government security agency. And whether or not that's entirely true is another question but again you're dealing with perception being reality in this particular instance. Fantastic route again. For someone building new glass along this route it's not the normal run or just taking you to the border to go all the way the rest of the way to Vancouver I think you've got a winner there as well. And again new glass so good for you. I do want to ask I'm going to skip down to another question that I want to kind of hit today while we're here is what other subsea cable development challenges are you seeing in the marketplace today? And have we stalled out? Have we, you know, I think we're seeing new players into the space, the olibob, those 10 cents apples, different players that are coming in. It's not just the OTTs have they stalled out? Are they still a big part of the game? Are they driving the demand? And how does that play into what you're seeing and the challenges you're facing? Mike, I think we'll go back to you. Yeah, I mean the OTTs are definitely the driver for your big projects especially your trans-oceanic projects and I think that'll be the case for the foreseeable future where in most instances you need at least one of them as an anchor tenant at least one really to make a project economic for smaller projects like Crosslake and a couple of other ones that we're looking at the feasibility of they're more niche players and they fit more into the carrier market they're also non-repeated projects so really our service offering is dark fiber because we have a high fiber count cable that's the model that we're looking at and in those instances we don't need any sort of OTT as a driver. I mean the great thing if you're a long repeated system that goes across the ocean the great thing about an OTT is they don't compete with you they're buying that capacity and using it internally so you're not adding new competition into the market whereby on our routes we're selling dark fiber to anybody we're not competing with our customers by selling lit capacity and so I think that model really enables us to, enables us from a project development perspective not to require certain customer segments to have to sign on in order for us to get those presales and move a project forward. Yeah I wouldn't know one Canadian carrier that wouldn't be buying on that route I would say, let alone a US carrier just trying to get to north to 151 front, you know the mecca of Canada. Just not, as you can tell just not a leaf span behind it. Anyway I will go to Gill as well what kind of subsea cable development challenges are you seeing for NJMPX or just in the Markzak space alone? Sure, so think about a subsea project that's really at development play and they've got various levels of risk they've got to get their customers to get their funding and they've got to go to manufacturing and manufacture the cable at the coordinate where they're going to land the cable on two sides. We mitigate part of that risk since when Tyco built this facility back in 1999 they put a spare bore to the ocean that come all the way to our building that have been proven out recently with the sea boss cable so we're actually helping mitigate risk for sea cross-atlantic projects down because the boars are there they're coming into a secure site that's a neutral site they're going to feel comfortable that their landlord won't compete with their interests so we're actually helping mitigate those risks we're helping them post having to make hard decisions because if you're going to land a cable in the US you're probably going to get a year to two to three years of planning where in our case 30 days out let us know you're going to come out on the bore and we can have you out there running. Yeah, we were definitely built for the future sure. And Ken what's the challenge of you seeing with the subsea cable development in the market place? For us it's regional this is a very unique region on the Pacific coast the tidal currents that sort of thing play to a large extent where you can actually place fiber us heading north into Prince Rupert represents some fairly significant challenges the good news is is that we will have our own dynamic positioning cable lane barge at our disposal here and we know the folks that built all the subsea cables for the hydro company here so for us justifying the business opportunity against the cost of that build not the actual build itself and that's where the provincial government will come into play here because without their support it's really hard to justify that build going north through the various small communities that don't have a hope in terms of paying for that kind of build from a dollars and cents perspective publicly obviously with the port to take on anything coming in whether multiple cable landing stations right there at the port of Vancouver but also multiple ports along the way and then you're tapping into your new fiber build which that's cool absolutely that brings me to my next question as these projects develop what is the current landscape for financial investments are you seeing a lot of interest from private equity companies like terrestrial cable networks and how does that impact your business models Micah I'll throw that to you yeah I mean it's definitely changed very materially over the last number of years I mean in the decade after the dot-com boom there was really no new cables or no new large cables being built and definitely not with private capital as opposed to off carrier's balance sheet and so over the last you know a few years you've seen a number of big cables come to fruition that were privately financed are to quintillion off the comms seabourn Hawaii key and even even hibernia express I mean hibernia express was an operating company but that represented a very material build for the company and now that they've actually exited I think it has further grease the wheels for the the financial community whereby a lot of your typical investors are seeing multiple deals there's very much a herd mentality and people have gone through the learning curve or due diligence on different projects so they're a lot more familiar with them and it's not as a a foreign or scary kind of concept and so I think for those reasons combined with the current multiples that you're seeing a lot of the m&a happen today I think it's it's never been a better time since the dot-com boom to to finance a new project absolutely absolutely you're right with that one exit that was you are seeing a major multiple is now nearing 10 10 times even in the half times but now I think you're seeing a close even time it's great for our community Gil how do you feel about the current landscape for financial investments sure so thinking it this way right most of these projects a couple of layers of financing the first layers are to decide and that's someone going to put some skin in the game and an investment and an idea and they're going to go out and go chase customers but the hurdle rates for financing on the debt side have gotten lower our low interest rates over the last seven to eight years now really fuels those hurdle rates to be less so when a developer go to try and start a project and he's chasing that customer to be an anchor customer it's it's not as large of financial obligation on that side because the debt is cheaper so any investor in the network knows they can get debt financing like in the case of Seabros they were able to get the French government to basically help fund that project on the debt side throughout the town those rates were less therefore the hurdle rates become smaller and projects happen sooner I think for that reason you'll continue to see more projects happen in this current interest rate environment because the hurdle rate is smaller that's right and the government playing into it I think that plays right into Kent as well I'm sure the government is very interested in helping your project out Kent they've got a new fund now they're prepared to invest over $700 million in infrastructure and that includes telecom so we're hoping to take advantage of that certainly that'll help us justify the subsea build north and I concur with both Mike and Jill we're experiencing now equity companies coming to us with packages so they'll put in the equity but they'll also arrange for the debt and we're now dealing with four of those so it's been interesting from that perspective I thought that that would be a lot more difficult that it would appear to be now it's great money readily available we'd like to hear so thank you for that brings me out to my next question where do you see the subsea cable industry headed in the next three years what new opportunities are on the horizon do you believe and I'll start with Mike I think you're going to see a couple new trans-oceanic projects both on the Atlantic and the Pacific side I think you'll probably see a few on the Atlantic side that are still yet to be announced and built and similarly on the Pacific side I think you'll see the same beyond that I think really there will be a movement towards more regional systems just because I think a lot of the factors that are driving those new trans-oceanic routes the different players behind them have to a large extent met their requirements and without those drivers there's no natural people to really facilitate the development of some of those new very long trans-oceanic routes I think on the smaller regional systems and niche systems I think there's always an opportunity there it's just being creative and finding those opportunities you are creative at that it's hard to climb on a few others so kudos to you finding those niche plays from point to point where markets are under-served within routes I think you're accomplishing that today as is Ken so keep those projects up and those will happen in the next three years for a lot of folks and there could be more to come with diversity plays and needs for customers that will arise where do you see things happening next three years especially around your site and what are the new opportunities and I think we talked about the infrastructure coming in so clearly you're set up for the future sure so I think the term is called branching units I think we're going to see many of them that we never thought we'd see before that we're going to see cable operators re-evaluate networks they've had in place for so period of time and say why can't I branch off to their landing station we're in a great position to receive branching unit equivalence like that shortcuts water shortcuts whether it's us bringing a beach going down to Florida if you think about it the amount of capacity in the Atlantic has tripled in the last four years with Bruce, Maria, Monet Aquacons lots of new capacity but now we're going to start optimizing it why does it have to come only to one spot why can't it come to three or four spots along the east coast why can't you start shedding that traffic across and kind of managing it correctly so I think that's the next step and I think the US guys will enjoy getting to multiple landing stations getting to all of them and then demonstrating how their network uniquely gets across to other unique locations across the US and the US still enjoys most of the content creation but a lot of the OTTs are trying to potentially look at having other parts of the world create content well they're going to be in a great position having all that capacity coming across the Atlantic whether it's South America Europe or Laom and Loeb having all that capacity trapping both ways and now you have diversity with all these new branching units across multiple landing stations whether it's Canada or it's the east coast or the west coast you know the world is flat as Milton Reed said right he said everyone will be equal at one point in terms of how we connect and how we communicate and thanks to the investment that's happening in these subsea networks that's becoming reality and you're absolutely right with the BU's you know we were successful in hiberian putting a BU into Northern Ireland based on a government project kind of like Ken's going to have a branching unit that he could accept traffic obviously into Vancouver you know we did it into Belfast and the Northern Ireland and 13 other cities again for the government the government plays a huge role in that but again these cable systems that have been in the water for 10 or 12 years still can put in a branching unit and Ken I think that BU plays right into your story too where you can have a cable hit the west coast of I don't know Oregon or hit the Bay Area but also branch up to Vancouver and into your project is that where you see things next three years absolutely I think the diversity play for us is huge we've been talking it's up to the operator that we've been talking to about landing here is considering putting a branching unit just off the coast and we would actually pick it up from there with our barge and bring it to Vancouver and then also from the branching unit into Seattle and then what that would do is we would be able to use our terrestrial fibre for rope diversity and that's that's a very attractive value add for us and so I just see that like Gil said the branching units and the diversity plays heavily with our business success I think create a little bit of diversity there and you have a nice landing in Vancouver and then you just create a nice little triangle of diversity for clients that want to come into both areas so yes absolutely my last question of the day I think I just want to know what's your one word of advice for those that are looking to enter the subsea marketplace as either an investor or a builder we know there's a lot of folks out there with a lot of projects on their mind but what is your one word of advice having been successful in all these areas and I'll start with Mike I mean to sum it up on one word might be difficult but I'll say prudence I mean you have to be prudent in terms of really understanding your product and market fit and the technical challenges that come with certain routes and you know you're a third pillar of kind of I think a developing a project is on the financing side you always have to ensure that the nature of how you go and develop a project lends itself to being able to achieve that that funding percent I hadn't thought about that question but what comes to mind is ecosystem so traditionally a lot of these cables had one purpose in mind but we're realizing now that they affect many different industries many different applications and the saviour that developer becomes in terms of knowing how they can work with others and develop positive relationships whether it's other subsea whether it's cable landing stations whether it's US terrestrial folks OTT's knowing how you fit and being a good player so join the ecosystem and be honest before it's right cooperate with others play nicely and you'll be part of a pretty exciting industry absolutely Ken what would you see as maybe your one word of advice or a sentence of the device for the subsea as an investor or builder being both yeah I think it's experience I think all three aspects whether it's sales marketing engineering and financing it can't be the first rodeo for anybody I think you need experienced partners and experienced staff we're lucky in that we've been involved in infrastructure in one form or another over the last 20 years so for us the engineering aspect and the marketing part of that is it's not easy but you know certainly with that experience we understand the oops factor where something's going to go wrong at some point and it's how do you deal with that and then the third part is finding a financial partner who's in the space already so that you're not trying to reeducate a bank or somebody that isn't in this tech sector for lack of a better word I think you nailed it on the head with experience and I think everyone on this panel is we have probably 100 years of experience on this panel not to quote anybody's age but yeah I would agree with that experience in this marketplace and who you know and what you know and the projects and being able to find and send them with the right people and everything but I want to wrap it up on my end and I want to thank every one of you Mike, Cunningham, Gil Santholes and Ken Thor for being part of my panel today on the State of Subsea and of course thank you Jamie Scott always Jason A. Thank you Eric. Eric Gutschel the founder of United Cable Company used to see unbelievable jobs all around unbelievable insight and thank you again students, panelists, our experts for sure you know the subsea industry couldn't see what it is today without the four of you so thank you. We hope to see you gentlemen and everyone here watching live and on demand at Telecom Exchange LA November 6th to the 7th and to get your sea level featured in our CEO roundtables at Telecom Exchange or right here virtually head and email us at pr at jamescato.com Thanks for tuning in to JSA TV and JSA Radio and until next time happy networking.