 But when I hear you talk, I feel like I'm listening to someone who still doesn't believe we're in a crisis, and I think we're in a crisis. This session is on the global impact of Australia's wildfires. We're not here to talk about the wildfires, as much as how do we overcome this problem, how do we fix this problem that we've been, you know, that is a global crisis. We know the area devastated twice the size of Belgium. We've all heard about the massive damage to humans, you know, communities. Wildlife and nature has been appallingly hit. But we really want to focus here on how to stop this thing happening again. Very, very happy to be joined, and proud to be joined by Mateus Corman, Minister of Finance, Leader of the Government in the Senate of Australia. Carlos Alfonso Nobre, Director Research of the Brazilian Academy of Sciences. And Dr. Nobre, I'd love to hear your views and bring you in to talk about your experience studying forests and their link between climate change and what lessons will you be learning. And Lynette Woolworth, you're an artist from Studio Woolworth in Australia, you're a cultural leader, last night you were named as one of our Crystal Award winners for 2020. The format, as I said, will hopefully be interactive. We encourage you to ask questions, make comments, just stick your hand up, and I'll find a good way of bringing you into the conversation. What we generally do is start with a round of questions, just to introduce our speakers and get the conversation going. So if I may, Minister Corman, I'll start with you. As Finance Minister of Australia, what steps are you prepared to take to bring down the country's climate rates at the related risk in the future? Well, I mean, Australia is taking effective action on climate change. We are one of a handful of countries that is on track, not just to meet but to exceed and beat our emissions reduction targets, agreed to in the Kyoto by 2020 by more than 400 million tonnes of CO2. Not many countries can say that. We are on track to meet and beat our emissions reduction target agreed to in Paris by 2030. And yes, the top line, emissions reduction target that we locked into, 26 to 28 per cent. But when you assess that on a per capita basis, Australia is a large continent, comparatively small population, 25 million people. On a per capita basis, we're reducing emissions by half, by 50 per cent. That's higher than it's more ambitious than countries like across the European Union, Canada, New Zealand, Japan and others. And indeed, in terms of emissions intensity in the economy, emissions per unit of GDP output, we are committed to reducing emissions by two thirds. So we believe that we are very ambitious. I mean, obviously, climate change is an issue that can only be addressed effectively at a global level and all countries around the world need to contribute. And we believe that we are contributing, guided by a desire to pursue policies that are environmentally effective and economically responsible. And we believe we're doing our bit. And on that point, it sounds like everything's on track. Are you having reflections upon that past month or the two months and the forest fires we've been having? Is that going to trigger any kind of change in policy? Well, obviously, in the context of resilience to climate change and climate change adaptation, I think that there is certainly more that we need to do in terms of... I mean, generally Australia has been, you know, is well prepared to deal with emergencies. But this was a particularly devastating, extreme bushfire event. I mean, in Australia, Australia has experienced bushfires for thousands of years. Indeed, indigenous Australians have conducted back-burning operations in a regular, methodical and very sophisticated fashion along before a European settlement of Australia. And, you know, there's no doubt that climate change has had an impact and it worsens the intensity of the events. And there is certainly more that we need to do to deal with managing the events when they occur in a nationally coordinated fashion. I think the Prime Minister in this bushfire season led an unprecedented nationally coordinated emergency response effort. And indeed, we are providing significant investments in terms of the bushfire recovery period with a $2 billion fund directed into helping fire-impacted communities obviously rebuild for the future. But into the future, of course, there is more that we need to do in terms of adaptation and resilience. And what about restructuring the economy? We need to green-growth one of the big watchwords of this meeting. Well, I mean, Australia has got a great potential to contribute to emissions reductions globally. And it's very important that the policy choices we make don't make it harder for Australia to help reduce global emissions. And let me say that a black coal out of Queensland, for example, which is lower in ash and lower in moisture than other options are being burned in developing countries around the world, can make a contribution to help reduce global greenhouse gas emissions. So every ton of emissions producing LNG in Australia helps to reduce global emissions by five to nine tons, where it displaces particularly dirty, environmentally inefficient coal sources. So, I mean, and of course, Australia, I mean, in Australia, we 25% of our energy supplies in our national electricity market comes from renewable energies. The projection is for that to reach 50% by 2030. And indeed, our per capita investment in renewable energy and clean energy is more than twice the level of Germany, the UK or France. I mean, again, people need to keep into perspective. Australia is a huge continent with a comparatively small population. I mean, when I speak to my family and friends out of Europe, I mean, having grown up in Belgium as a kid, there seems to be a lack of perspective on how big Australia actually is. I mean, you mentioned that an area twice the size of Belgium burned down. And that's, of course, mentioned in the media. We always should tell you this. No, not sure, but let me also just make the point that Australia is 256 times the size of Belgium. And I mean, it's about 2% of the landmass of Australia has been impacted by those fires, about 0.4% of our population. I mean, it's devastating for those communities. And obviously, our heart goes out to them. And on behalf of Australia, let me express our deep gratitude for the support, assistance and friendship that we've received from countries all around the world in the wake of these devastating bushfires. But it's important to also look at these things objectively and assess them objectively so that we can prepare our responses objectively. Some great points, which we'll undoubtedly come back to. Lynette, let's go to you first. You said, if I remember your speech correctly, I believe you said we've seen the unfolding wings of climate change. Yes, that is. Let's unpack that a little bit. And I'll talk about your confidence in how we can avoid this situation and what needs to be done at the government level, what you'd like to see done at the community level, because, as the minister said, this requires all of society coming together to make Australia more resilient to the disasters that befall it. Well, last night I focused my speech on leadership, because I think that that's what we need. You know, this is... We can talk about these figures. We can say 2% of the total of Australia. We can talk about 30,000 koalas just from Kangaroo Island alone, lost in the fires just most recently. So there's the statistics and then what it means on the ground. And what I feel when I hear... I'm sorry, Matias, but when I hear you talk, I feel like I'm listening to someone who still doesn't believe we're in a crisis. And I think we're in a crisis. I don't think that these fires are representative of all the fires that we've ever had. And I feel like we're... I know that the analogy is not correct. The frog in the boiling water is disproved scientifically, but I feel like that's where we are, where we keep saying we're adapting to something without jumping out of the pot by what I mean taking action. And I don't want... I don't want to be listening to how we're using our figures to meet these targets, but not actually responding to an emergency that's happening. So I think we can make the assumption... I'm making the assumption that we're living in a crisis and maybe the minister will disagree. So what do we do about it? What do you want to see done about it? I want to see leadership from the top that we can follow confidently. So we have a prime minister right now who's saying, we'll do this, we'll do that, but we won't raise electricity prices. I will pay more electricity if it gives me the chance to use renewables and it shifts us away from this trajectory that we're on. Power, power, that's anything else. We can, of course, as a right to respond, but let's keep the conversation moving. Look, anything that's going to help... I really feel that the point is leadership because people will manage any sort of change if they have to. And I think that the conversation is continually around economics and never around the things that we value. We love our environment in Australia. We love the animals. We will do very many things to keep those things protected. And what I would love is to see leadership from the top, which we can follow. The communities on the ground are doing what they can. But we all know we are better. That's why we are here. We all know we are bettered by positive leadership that actually accepts what's happening and not trying to kind of always suggest that it's really not that bad. OK, so less numbers more... Less numbers, more listening. I'll let you get back to this, but first, let's move to Professor Nobre, who's not Australian, but has acquired over his professional lifetime a huge immense knowledge on the linkage between forest and climate change. And I want you to step in and give your considered opinion on what needs to be done, not just for Australia, because we have forest fires everywhere. Not everywhere, but in numbers of places in the past six months. Devastating impact on the environment globally. So let's not just focus on Australia here, but very interested to hear what your prescriptions are. Yes, devastating forest fires everywhere. In mid-latitudes and subtropics, also the ecology is adapted to fire historically for millions of years. However, we are changing the basic state, and really the Australia bush fires show that we are very, very close to a tipping point. Climate change is making higher temperatures, extreme droughts, much more frequent. If we look at Australia, you know, six out of the 10 most severe droughts and warm years were in the last 10 years. So this is climate change. There is very little doubt that what we are seeing unfolding is due to climate change. I'm not going to get into the meteorological complexities, why this is happening in El Nino becoming more intense. The Indian Ocean Dipole becoming more intense. This is meteorological jargon, but those things are happening. The big question is if repeated situations like that happen, the forest will never have time to re-adapt. So that's why, you know, and most of the Australian scientists, very reputed scientists are saying that for over 10 years. If we are unable to stop climate global heating, many ecosystems will disappear in the future. In Australia, of course, a very short-term measure for adaptation is recovering from this 60,000 square kilometer bushfire. Keep in mind that the fire was so intense because the temperature was so high, flammability was so high that a large portion still being assessed of those forests, particularly Eucalyptus forests, died. They are not only slightly affected, they die. So there will be, and I think this will be, a good experiment. Australia will have to start the largest forest restoration project in the world. That's a good point, Professor, because we probably heard the President of the United States mention earlier this day that his country was supporting an initiative being led by the forum, in fact, to facilitate the planting and restoration of a trillion trees this decade. But we need to do things differently, right? Is it restoration? Is it replanting? What are the lessons and how do we plant forests and create woodland spaces that are less vulnerable in the future because we know that global warming is here? Well, again, for middle attitudes of subtropical ecosystems, you can restore forests. However, if the severity of droughts and warm temperatures, very hot temperatures continue, unabated, lightning strikes and it starts a fire. Sorry to say, it will be impossible to maintain those ecosystems if we do not meet the Paris Agreement target of 1.5 degrees. That's why it's a global responsibility, although Australia certainly has responsibility as any other country. So we really have to get to net zero emissions by 2050 if we want to maintain those ecosystems, particularly in middle attitudes and subtropics, but also in the tropics. We've reached a halfway stage and we've covered our basis, I think, fairly well. Lots of different perspectives out here. Let's have a quick show of hands. I know some of you are going to want to ask questions. Okay, let's take those three. We'll take them all at the same time. Can we start at the back, sir? And can you just give us your name for the benefit of those watching the line as well? Okay, well, my name is John Denny. I've just recently retired from the Foreign Rescue in New South Wales. So I've spent the last 40 years of my life as a career firefighter. I work very closely with the volunteer firefighters as well. I guess more of a comment, but there's a significant level of frustration with the firefighting community and they've been hailed as heroes for the outstanding work that they've done. They really need to be listened to as well. Climate change has been happening. There's been a couple of critical fires, 2003 in camera, 2009 in Victoria, that have rewritten the textbooks on fire behaviour. The fires we've experienced recently are different to any other fires we've had. One, they've been so geographically extensive. There's no capacity for other states to come into this because all states are now. At their maximum in firefighting capacity. Two, we normally have severe fire ceases in conjunction with an El Nino effect, a weather effect. That didn't happen with these fires. It was an El Nino neutral climate system and we still had these fires. And as pointed out, Australia is now the hottest it's been and we've recorded record hot years over the last number of years. So firefighters are looking for political leadership to recognise and to take action. And really the fires that we've just experienced in Australia are a wake-up call to the world. And the clear message is the absolute need to reduce deeply and urgently carbon emissions. Thanks, sir. We'll come to that one. Could you just pass the microphone over to your neighbour? Mattias, really glad you mentioned Indigenous land practises. You're the most... The reminders have been a must, but I'll please... Sorry, Peter. Homes are caught. Mattias, really glad that you mentioned Indigenous land practises and wondering if your government is thinking about supporting more of the traditional ways of managing the land in Australia and perhaps the economics of investing in that, saving great damage in other activities. Right, let's just look with the microphone over here. We'll do the tape, these three. I believe, if I'm correct, we have a non-Australian about to ask a question, so we're going to globalise this conversation. Yeah, John Hills from ITV News. I suppose I wanted really just to find out whether your reaction to President Trump speaks. President Trump spoke about profits of doom and I think sort of felt that climate change activists were over-egging the science. Do you agree, Minister, with the President of the United States that people are being too gloomy about climate change? So, let's take these in order. So, political leadership and firefighters, are you...? Well, OK, like, if I take them in turn, and this is obviously going to be an ongoing conversation in a domestic context in Australia and the Prime Minister has flagged in the government, is considering what form, an inquiry, a comprehensive inquiry, a Royal Commission or other inquiry that might take moving forward. I mean, right now we're still dealing with the emergency response. There's still quite a few fires burning, so that's the priority. We've started the bushfire recovery process, but there will be a period when to properly work through how better to respond and, you know, what else we can sensibly do in relation to these sorts of issues. I mean, I say it again, Australia absolutely does its bit when it comes to effective action on climate change globally. There are not many countries that are going to beat their emissions reduction targets by 2020, agreed to in Kyoto. And, you know, when it comes to our Paris targets, looking at it on a per capita basis and on an emissions intensity of the economy basis, you know, our ambitions when it comes to emissions reductions are significantly higher than many other comparable developed countries. Now, you know, when it comes to indigenous land practices, there has been some of it. I think there could be more. And the Prime Minister overnight, you know, in Australia last night has been making the point that we need to focus on hazard reduction as well as on emissions reductions. And that is certainly something that indigenous Australians did very, very well for thousands of years. I mean, indigenous Australians, I know that I had the great experience here in Davos in 2016 to watch a movie, a immersed experience of watching those indigenous land practices in action. And they were pursued for a range of purposes, but they also helped mitigate the risk of large-scale bushfires. And that has to be using those sorts of methodical, regular, sophisticated methods into the future has to be part of the consideration. There's no question. In terms of President Trump, I thought he gave a great speech. It was a very uplifting speech. He was obviously focusing on the great achievements of his administration when it comes to boosting economic growth in the United States and some of the global issues and some of the global economic outlook. When it comes to climate change, I mean, the Australian government's position is very clear. I mean, we are committed to effective action on climate change. We do understand that climate change is something that needs to be addressed. We also understand that the only way that it will be addressed effectively is through a global response. And if we had a mature global conversation about this, we wouldn't be doing constant finger pointing. We would actually be looking at how each country can best contribute, given the natural attributes that respective countries have to contribute to a global solution. And we've always got to make sure that we don't have preconceived ideas on what blanket policy propositions might deliver the best possible impact. Because carbon taxes has been mentioned, the price on carbon, when in Australia would actually make it harder for Australia to help reduce global greenhouse gas emissions. No question. I mean, we would be shifting economic activity and jobs overseas where for the same amount of economic output emissions would be higher. We would be making it harder to export comparatively cleaner energy sources into developing countries around the world where they are currently and can even more so into the future are displacing less environmentally efficient energy sources. And that, obviously, from the LNG to uranium to even to black coal compared to brown coal options in other countries, as well as solar, wind, hydrogen, and all of these other energy sources. I mean, there's no question. And again, on a per capita basis, and I hear what you're saying. You don't like to talk about numbers, but it's very hard to talk objectively about an issue without mentioning numbers. There's no question that Australia is a world leader when it comes to per capita investment in clean energy. I mean, the level of investment in wind and solar and the government is pursuing, obviously, substantial investment and catalyzing substantial investment through the Clean Energy Finance Corporation into clean energy. I mean, there's no question that we are world leader when it comes to clean energy investment. There's always, as technologies evolve and as technologies improve, there's always more and better things we can do. But we're committed. One of the questions. Can I just give a little bit about this? President Trump doesn't seem, sorry, back on the point about President Trump. I take the points you're making, but President Trump doesn't seem to believe the science on climate change. Does that worry you? I'm not a commentator on President Trump's beliefs. I was in the audience. I thought it was a great speech. It was a fantastic speech. You didn't worry. I thought he delivered a great speech about the economic achievements of his government. And I think that's the right thing. President Obray, let's talk to you. Does it worry you that the President of the United States mentioned, likened the climate community as two prophets of doom? Of course it worries all of us, because since his election, his speech getting out of Paris agreement, that really sent a very bad signal to many countries. I think countries which were more committed to meeting their commitments to Paris agreement, kind of, you know, wiring in a position. For instance, even China, China should really abandon completely coal-fired power plants if we want to reach 1.5 and even two degrees. And that would certainly affect our Australian economy, exporting coal. So I think this really very, very trouble political leadership coming from the US, because that's not even the position of the US population. 74% of the US population are concerned about climate change. So I don't think this is good for sustainability in the planet. It's very bad. However, I think the population, particularly the US population, will not really respond. And also I'm not sure it's true whether adapting or preventive adaptation will lead to bad or poor business. On the contrary, climate change gives enormous opportunities. And the minister here mentioned renewable energy, which is generating hundreds of thousands of jobs a year in the world, also in the United States. So I don't think defending, let's say, coal mining and a very small community in the US really is good for the planet. Yeah, I would like to say something about that. Keep it quick. If you don't mind, I'd like to do two more questions. Two things. I'm not against the numbers. I'm talking about values in addition to the numbers. I'm talking about how we weigh these things up. And we can say we're investing in renewables, but we've de-invested in renewables. We can say that we're shifting, but we're opening large coal mines in addition to what we already have. So it's about, where does this pendulum swing, where it shifts in the direction of where we are actually heading and not continually trying to hold in balance things that may be incompatible for the future of the entire world? Well, just on that point, because obviously a high-profile coal mine in Australia is the Adani mine. And I was at a session earlier with the Indian Commerce Minister. And he might the point. I mean, India for the foreseeable future will need to rely substantially, including in order to facilitate increased reliance on renewables. We'll need to rely on coal for their by-slot power. Now, they'll have several options. Either they use a cleaner Australian coal with lower ash and moisture content and higher energy intensity. Or they use dirtier, environmentally less friendly and more polluting coal in order to achieve what they will seek to achieve. And that is to provide electricity to their people. Now, again, I mean, this is actually Australia making a beneficial contribution. Not every coal mine is a bad thing for the environment. I mean, when you have better quality coal compared to the alternative options that are available, you actually might be able to help through the transition provide better outcomes. Are we talking about transition, though, as a government? Is the government talking about transition away from coal to renewables? Well, for the foreseeable future, coal will be a significantly important energy source. But of course, I mean, we are providing increased levels of, well, we're facilitating increased levels of renewable energy. And that will continue into the future. But I mean, let's be realistic. In countries around the world, I mean, 50% of global coal production comes from China. 50% of global coal production comes from China. Australia is responsible for 6% of global coal production. India about 12%, the US 10%. 50% of global coal production happens in China. Anyone for a last question before we start wrapping up? Lady in the front, right? So let us know what your name is, please, and where you're from. I'm Lukina from Switzerland. I've been climbing. I've been a striker with Isabel II and Dominic. So as the young generation, this is the world you are living to us and you are taking the decision right now. So anyways, we are watching. And just a point I would like to bring that I heard this morning that I found very interesting was from an indigenous woman. And I really think we should listen to indigenous people because they have such like solution and connection to nature and the way how we can connect to it in order to rebuild the forest which have been completely burned. Maybe you have a point to address about it. I don't know, but just to pass the message for, I guess. Indigenous Australians are very good at managing fire. And when it comes to hazard reduction burning, we could learn a lot from indigenous Australians. There's no question. I think that one of the issues, not the only issue, but one of the issues, I mean, after an extended period of drought in an Australian context, the fuel load that had built up was quite extraordinary. And if you have more regular back burning and more regular hazard reduction activities which in Australia are organized at a state level, it will help reduce the risk. There's no question. And that is one of the great things that indigenous Australians showed over many, many years. However, just for a small point, if we reach 3 degrees, which is the commitment of the countries towards the Paris Agreement, we're not committed to 1.5 or 2. If we reach 3 degrees, this year's summer in Australia will be every year summer. And if that happens, even the indigenous communities are not used for 16,000 years with that kind of climate. There may be very ingenious and come up with ways, but I'm not sure. One final question for me, Mr. Minister, if I may. I'm just a benefit of coming from immediately, from another session, where we talked about net zero. And we had Greenpeace. We had Lord Stern. We had a climate investor. And very much the discussion was on the fact that there is the beginnings of a change. We're not at a tipping point yet. But we are seeing major action among sovereign wealth funds, among investors on de-risking their own portfolios and moving away from fossil fuels, for example. So my question is very simple. In terms of the risk to the economy, do you think you're accurately and are you happy with your risk assessment of how we relate to the Australian economy is? Well, I don't accept your analysis in terms of the nature of the Australian economy or the Australian economy is quite diversified. Yes, we do have a significant component that is made up of the resources sector of which the coal sector is a part. But when I say it again, there's a global demand for coal. And if it's not met by a cleaner Australian coal, comparatively cleaner Australian coal, it will be met by a comparatively dirtier coal from other sources. And the world environment will be worse off. And I'll just make the point again about Australia. Australia is a sunburned country of droughts and flooding rains. And these are not words that I've invented. These are words that were coined by Dorothy McKellar 115 years ago. I mean, we do have to, yes, climate change is making things worse. We do have to have an effective response to climate change. We do have to have effective strategies to increase resilience and to deal with hazard reduction. But we've also got to keep it in perspective in the sense that Australia has always been a country that has suffered extreme weather events on both sides of the spectrum. I think that's the challenge. That's where we're poles apart. Because we can say this about our history continually. We can meet the challenge of this moment. And one requires a shift. And the shift in thinking is a thing that's very hard to hear from our leadership. I feel I am waiting for the change that says, that acknowledges that this is unprecedented, that we haven't experienced this before, that even Indigenous people with their longstanding and continuing mosaic pattern burning would not be able to manage this. When do we change? And you made that point very, very, very eloquently, leaders. And unfortunately, we're out of time. We need effective climate change strategies. We need new hazard avoidance strategies. We need new ideas that hazard will be found for us. That says a bit. And we need solutions that take into account communities and firefighters and Indigenous peoples. Thank you very, very much indeed for joining us. Thank you for watching us live online.