 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 46 of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with Bob Cook and myself, Jackie Jones. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about, I've got a frog, the client who doesn't know why they are there or what they want from therapy. Yes, I'm smiling. Not your cough or anything. I'm smiling at the number of clients who, in my clinical history, have said, well, actually, I don't know why I'm here. I just feel I had to come because the discomfort in my life had been so high. Or they might say, well, I don't know why I'm here. I don't actually know. I think there's anything wrong with me, perhaps, but I'm here. And we can have a range of transactions like that. It makes me smile because more often than not, it's a minimizing transaction. It shows often denial. And those people often stay with me the longest. Yeah, I can see that. Again, I know we've spoke about it in the past, but in this country, in the UK, in order to be trained in transactional analysis, you have to have your own personal therapy throughout your training. Oh, yes, I know where you're going. I didn't think there was anything wrong with me until I started training. And then suddenly it was like, oh, my God. Thought your cough or your cough. Literally, it was like, yeah, I thought I was functioning quite well until I started therapy and then slowly but surely things started coming up for me. So I would probably have been one of those people. Yeah, it's interesting what you just said, that to be a psychotherapist, you have to have your own therapy. If you're in the UK CEP training at the Institute, you have to do 40 hours a year, 160 hours in the whole training. And I'm sure what you've just described many of the trainee psychotherapists have probably said to their therapist, well, you know, I've got to do it because I have to do it because otherwise I can't be a psychotherapist, but actually there's nothing wrong with me. I don't know what I'm going to talk about with for four years. What do you think? Yeah, or interestingly, I think there's the other group of people who maybe I know in the last podcast we were talking about, you know, the avoidant kind, that maybe start training as a psychotherapist because they know that therapy is part of it. And it kind of, I don't know, there's no shame or that first connection with a therapist is done because they're doing their training. No, you're right, you get a lot of people coming to therapy. And they may not say that's what you've just said, but ostensibly it works out that way. Yeah, yeah. So what do we do with a client that comes and they don't know why they're there? Oh, we would get back to them. It's like happy trains, you know, the clinical world we get. You're having split into categories again, I think. You get people who have been sent there. Yes. Oh, you know, my partner sent me or, you know, my friends have said that I'm a real pain or I actually don't think it's much wrong with me, but I'm here anyway. Now, therapist with that type of person has all those types of transactions needs to start needs to think, well, what about motivation? You know, in other words, are you do you actually want to be here for yourself as well? Or is this simply because you've been told to come? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I want to be here for myself. Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Or you might get somebody said, well, no, I don't really need to be here. I'm just doing it because of I've been sent here, then I would send those people away. Yeah. I would say come back when you're coming back for yourself then, because if they're doing therapy from an adapted place, which that is, yeah, adapting to please or whatever it is, therapy will never work because you'll never meet the real self. And also, they're not taking ownership of there's anything wrong. It's surprising how many telephone calls I get from parents have grown up children or partners that they'll phone me up and ask if I'll see their child or their partner. And when I say to them, yes, I'm quite happy to see them, but they need to phone me up and make an appointment. I can't make an appointment for somebody through you. And they're quite shocked as if, why not? Really? Yeah. I haven't had that so much because I don't really get into that discourse, I suppose, but it's an interesting one. Well, if they, I can't remember parents saying that actually, but if they did, actually, I've probably attempt to get the parents into therapy instead. It's interesting. I've had, seriously, I've had quite a few phone calls over, whether it's because of the pandemic or whatever it is, that, you know, they're really struggling and, you know, will you, can you help them? And I'm like, yes, I can. So can I make an appointment for them? It's no, you can't make an appointment. They make contact with me. Especially if they're over 18. Exactly. Yeah. But they seem quite shocked at that. So not only do people go to therapy because they've kind of been told to, but out there in society, people are trying to make appointments for the relatives or friends to actually go to therapy. Yeah. What's an interesting one? The other category of people who come and say, well, I know my life, I'm not happy in my life, but discomfort is so high. And I just need to be here. I don't really know why. Yeah. I know that I need to be in therapy. Now, when I meet that type of person, I'm more likely to say a transaction like this, which is what I'm going to say to you now. I'll say, well, it sounds like you obviously need to be here, as well as want to be here. So if you had to guess what this is all about, what would your guess be? Yeah. It's really powerful that. Yeah. Because you're not wanting them to commit to something. Just the word, you know, saying, oh, take a guess. Yeah. It's not definite, is it? It's not definite and TA terms is bypassing the pound. Yeah. Yeah. And in the words, it's given permission to the younger self to be able to reflect. Yeah. And so then usually what happens in my experience, they start guessing or reflecting. Oh, well, if you're asking me to reflect, I think it might be because I've just been so unhappy. You know, I've been happy for years. And then the next question needs to be, and that queries more than questions. I do want to say is, well, what does happy mean for you? Because they will start to speak, especially people who don't know why they're there. Well, they'll start to minimize or speak in vague terms. And they're all deflecting transactions to actually keep you away, actually. And the therapists can understand that and see them in those terms as defense coping mechanisms, then the therapist can then choose to gently just confront those transactions. Now, I don't like being confronted by that's just ridiculous or something, but in terms of, well, that's interesting. So, you know, do you mean by happy there? What do you mean by unhappy? Oh, well, you know, I'm unhappy because I and they'll start to give reasons then. Yeah, I'm unhappy because I can never stay in a relationship. Oh, because that if you start to go like that, very slowly, 10 to one, you're going to find out why they come to therapy. Yeah, because there's something about they already know the answer. They know. I mean, no, people know, but they need somebody to help them gently reflect on a hypothesis. Yeah, of what it may be about. Yeah. Exploration as well, and just exploring. Yeah, yeah, all about. And usually, you know, you'll get many transactions saying, well, you know, I know I need to be here, but you know, look at all these people who are far worse than me, far worse. Actually, I don't think I should be here really. You get you get a lot of that type of deflection or destruction. And I think I'm very, I think I'm very good as a therapist, one of my strengths, which is what could be called in the game, phenomenological inquiry. But another way to look at this is a reflection on their younger self and how that younger self is really sabotaging their abilities to get better. Yeah. I went when that kind of thing comes up in therapy, I always say that it's like the child is scared, he doesn't want things to change because this is how it's always worked up to this point. So, you know, there's going to be a scared child in there somewhere because you're kind of pushing the comfort zone a little bit. You got one thing, though. Yes, absolutely. You got one aspect that is really important to remember that they've come to therapy in the first place. Yeah. Now, if they've come to therapy in the first place, that level of motivation to change, even though they might be part of themselves like what you just talked about, scared and everything that goes with that, they've got a bigger part, I think, or at least an equal part that has the energy to change, even if they don't know it. Yeah, 100%, which is a saving grace for all of us really because, you know, even though we've got a scared child inside us, you know, that drive to make a change, to live a better life in less suffering is what drives us to make a change and to go to therapy. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So have you had many clients yourself in your own clinical practice to present not knowing why they're there or don't know what to work on or? Yeah, yeah. And we usually start off with a four week exploratory contract thing where that's what we do and also the ones that say that, you know, well, there's nothing really wrong. There's people worse off than me. I hear that an awful lot from clients. Yeah. Yeah, they're minimizing. It just happened to me. I had a happy childhood. All these reasons why they shouldn't be in the therapy room. Yeah. And they're all minimizing and they're all transactions which are aimed at deflecting you from. But the duty of the therapist, I believe, especially with these types of clients, is actually to be a bit like a terrier and keep on the case. Yeah. I could do it with them all. Be like the Sherlock Holmes. Yes, yeah. I'm a great believer in being like a Sherlock Holmes character, bit like a terrier, just to keep on them on. But gently, you know, permission transactions, helping them reflect. Yeah. What's going on in their life, helping them looking at how the past affects the present, looking at the unmet relational needs. They're all the reasons why a client comes in the first place. Yeah. And sometimes with these sorts of clients who, you know, say that they don't really know why they're there, I think that, you know, having a sense of humour helps as well, you know, that I don't go in full-on therapy mode with them either. It's about, you know, them knowing that it's a safe space to talk about whatever they want to do. If they want to come in and just off-load, they can come in and off-load. Yeah. So humour. Yeah, yeah. Making things lighter. Yes. And kind of layer by layer or once the therapeutic relationship is built up and they feel more comfortable. And like you said, they have the answers. They know why. So it is just those, you know, subtle questions. Yeah. Yeah. Another thing, Jackie, which is, I held very dear, dear, by the way, is it's okay for people to not know. Yeah. That shocks them when you say that. It's okay to not know. Yeah. And it's okay to work with your unknown. Yeah. Because a lot of the therapeutic healing, actually, is because people have a fear of the unknown. Yeah. Because the opposite of that is, of course, is taking control, working things out and everything that goes with that. And that, of course, leads to a lot of issues. Yeah. So it's okay for them not to know. But that's different from an attempt to understand them. They are very different. It's okay for them not to know. And as I said, to work with the unknown. And how does that, how does that actually stop you getting what you want today? That was fine work with the unknown. And how does that actually work in you not getting what you want today? So it's been like a terrier. Yeah. It's been like permissions and to just keep with them. Because there is another kind of thing that I think about with this where, you know, people goal setting and moving towards something, there are that section of society that know what they don't want. That kind of gives them the direction rather than going for something that they do want. They find the way by avoiding certain things. If that, am I explaining it right? I don't know. The move away from and the move towards people. Well, I think you talk about control and vulnerability. Yeah. To the size of the plow, which is actually the same thing in some ways. But I think that you know, it's really, really important to allow space and silence and to give them permission to explore the unknown. Yeah. Well, yeah. But you know, some clients will tell me all the things they don't want. Oh, yeah, because they don't know what we take nine or 10. If you want to, if I went down the street, but snowing now, so I won't. And I found nine, found 10 people. Yeah. Just found 10 people in Tesco's or somewhere. I said, I would go into you. If I asked them, they would know what they don't want before they know what they want. Yeah. The eight of the eight of the 10 people would list off what they don't want. Yeah. Before they get to what they want. Yeah. So that's very common. And sometimes that's quite a good tool in the therapy room to have. You know, if they're saying, I don't know, I don't know what I want. I'll often say to them, well, tell them what you don't want. Yeah. It kind of points you in that direction. Yeah. With a bench fee, you can only go so far with that. Yes. Yeah. Thanks for the stop. Yeah. And then you'll say, have you, you know, have you stopped? Is there anything else there that you don't want? And I'll say, well, no, I think I've come, well, okay, then just put down the compartment then. And is it okay if you allow yourself to just go beyond that place to reflect on what might be what you want in this world? Or have you always been denied the opportunity to explore what you might want? Yeah. Which again, you know, is an important thing if, you know, we're prevented from that. And that again goes into the fantasy and the daydreaming and all that sort of stuff. We all fantasize about what we would like. Yeah. But you see, I think what the relational needs underneath all this is the need for self-definition to be able to define ourselves. Yeah. To have dreams, to have aspirations, to hope things can be different. But if we've had parents or significant others, which take ownership of that process and ownership of you, then we become defined. Yes. Never believe that we can actually dare to hope we might get what we want. Because we've always been told what we should want. Yeah. And again, for me, that leads into creativity as well. You know, to allow ourselves to be creative and to explore and to aim big about, you know, often we put limits on ourselves as to what is achievable or what, you know, I can potentially have. But we do that because we have an internalized parent, which has done it before for you. In other words, their parenting or significant other people have defined them. So they've never had the opportunity to do what you're talking about. Doesn't mean creativity, spontaneity, reflection isn't there. No, 100%. So imposing, overbearing, they've never been able to even allow themselves to imagine things you're talking about. Yeah. So what's the first step? Besides getting to know them and everything else, but you need to help the younger child. But you know, in the end, you have to take that parent on. Yeah. You can give as much permission as you'd like for self definition of the child, the youngest child in the person. But you also need to help desensitize that parent, that shadow above the person. Yeah. Which is where I see a lot of the limiting beliefs that we have, that they are capped, that it is that critical parents or that parent that is imposing those limits. Yeah. Now, the parent usually, I believe, comes from a scared place. In other words, if they don't take ownership, if they don't self-define XXX, then something's going to happen to themselves or to their child. Yeah. And that's because of their own history, of course. That's why I said earlier on in one of the podcasts, maybe it was this one, be good if I could get to do therapy with a lot of the parents of the clients that come in the room in the first place. Yeah. Now, what I do, of course, is do a lot of the work with the parents of the clients, but I do it through fantasy role play and psychologically be more powerful than the original parent. Yeah. Which is a really interesting thing to do because it's not about blaming and shaming the parents or anything. Sometimes it's about understanding why as parents we do what we do. And again, I'm a parent, you know, and I've got a parent and my upbringing has impacted on me, which theoretically I then pass on to my children. And that's where the scare comes in. Yeah. That will repeat history with our own children often. Yeah. Even though we all make a choice, we all make a choice in this. Well, it's an interesting one. I mean, I could talk forever about this and we should do podcasts on it. But, you know, when I often talk into the parents in the client, if you like, or role playing the parent, we come across a phenomena called Hobson's choice. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a choice and they often feel there's not a choice. Yeah. So that's an important thing to think about, I think. Yes. You know, at one level there's always choices, but if the choice is damned, if you do damned, if you don't, yeah, becomes a very limited choice. Yes. Yeah. And again, survival comes into it. You know, we do what we do in order to survive our upbringing or whatever it is. And in a child's place, it is often life and death. It's very black and white stuff. Yeah. So the clients that come in your room and say, I don't really know what I'm here, but I feel I've had central unhappiness or discomfort and I just need to be here. All the clients that say, I don't really know what I want to work in therapy, I think it's really, really important to think about healing, that they've really come. However they want to frame it, that somebody might help them in healing to have a, just to have, even if it's only for a moment, an enhanced positive experience in life. Yeah. Or somebody, or somebody who might just spend a few moments trying to help them understand themselves or help them look at themselves or understand how come they've been the way they are. Somebody would just spend a few moments doing that in a kind way. I think that's, that's it. You know, that inquiring is really important and that those are the kind of things that as a person, not a psychotherapist, they really hit something in me is when somebody, you know, without a reason is inquiring. It's quite intimate that, that transaction with somebody. And don't forget these clients may never have had even a moment of that. Yeah. That's so healing, isn't it? It is, it is. And it goes deep and it's long lasting as well. Yeah, definitely. Many, many, many, many students, many, many, many therapists and my travels have said, I just want to do something. And they read all these books and they by definition have to be taught many different things. But actually, at the end of the day, if they can somehow take on board, that just by being in the room, by being kind, by showing compassion, inquire about what may or may not have happened to them, is actually often the most healing thing they can ever do. Yeah. Yeah. And it is powerful. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes the most interesting and impactful sessions I've had are when the client has said they don't know what to bring. You know, when you say, so what would you like to talk about today? What do you want to bring for them? They're like, there isn't anything really. And at the end of it, they'll say, wow, I don't even know where that came from because that was not what I was intending on talking about in today's session. There you see what they're really saying. You know, I'm okay. I can look after myself. Yeah. Now, if a therapist buys into that, I don't do think they're doing their job well enough. No, no. But it's interesting to peel it back in a session when they've not come with anything specific to talk about. And it's like, well, let's just, you know, we'll just explore and see what comes up. See what comes up is so important. Yeah. So thank you for that, Bob. You're welcome. I've done really well because I've got the next one. Normally, I forget what we're going to do. So I think in the next podcast, what we're going to do is looking at the disturbed client. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. That's great podcast. And what's fantastic. I mean, you know, I don't know. I can only talk what I know for half an hour, but I could probably talk a whole day on that subject. Well, we'll keep it to 30 minutes. So I will see you in the next one, which is going to be episode 47, working with the disturbed client. We're heading to 50 then. We're getting there. I'll speak to you soon. Yeah, take care. Bye bye. Bye. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.