 We better get started. I'm Kate. I'm from Inspiral and I'll be moderating the discussion today. I'm no expert in open source but I have worked in the government and the media as well as in the entrepreneurship space. Our thoughts are with Pete and who couldn't be here today and his daughter in the UK. A very big thank you to Silverstripe for supporting the conference as well as suggesting this panel discussion. So I'd like to ask the panelists to introduce themselves. And so the audience can get a bit of a sense of where you stand on some of these issues. Just give us a bit of an overview of where you work and your relationship to this question of open. Ben, we'll start with you. Hi everyone, I'm Ben. I am the director of Talking Slowly at GitHub. No, I lead government outreach at GitHub so try to help government agencies get involved with open source. I just talked fast, didn't I? Government outreach. Hi, I'm Benny Anderson. I'm the product manager of the Common Web Platform at internal affairs. So I work across government to try and get other agencies to use the Common Platform and get them to not only use open source code but also then to contribute it back and we have these kind of community meetups and so that's where I work and what I do. Cool. And I facilitate those community meetups. Hi, I'm Cam Finlay. I'm the community awesomeness manager at Silverstripe. Yes, that's my real title. I can give you a business card later if you really want one. And really my interest in this topic is now that we have this Common Web Platform and we're having more and more government agencies coming on board with this, they're kind of coming on board to a new platform, a new way of doing things on the web but they're also coming into our open source community as well. So a lot of what I do is one, look after the open source community environment, make sure that it's a really cool space to work on open source code. So my background is a developer and I have kind of jumped into the community management space but we're also seeing more and more government ICT people wanting to get into this open source thing so it's kind of my job to welcome them into the community and to help them find meaningful ways to participate in open source. Kia ora, my name is Laura. I'm a campaign director at Action Station and my position on this I guess would be we at Action Station use online tools to enable and empower Kiwis to take action on the issues they care about and to hold power to account. Great, thank you. So the topic today is open data, open government. We should open source everything. But as we've discovered here at the OSIS conference, open government and open data is a very broad topic area. Open government can be about the code that systems and infrastructure is built on. It's about efficiency, solving a problem once and solving it everywhere in an area where lack of competition means this is possible. It's about the public being able to contribute to the decisions that affect them and it's also about opening up the mountains of data that the government has. Open government is about spurring innovation, public-private marketplaces of scientific and technological ideas to take Ben's words and potentially about a more inclusive way of running society. But there is a difference between open everything and open government. So the panel, what does open government look and feel like to you? And how is this different than open everything? So I think for me what fundamentally defines open source, open government is the idea of community. If you look at what GitHub is at its core, it's a social network for software developers. It's Facebook for code. And there's something immensely powerful about the fact that if I post something to GitHub or if a government agency posts something to GitHub, you become part of a community. You're part of the open source community and anyone in the world, be they some here in New Zealand or back in the United States, anyone can propose a change, can try to improve that and it sets up this relationship that we're all on the same team, that we're all in it together and that we're trying to accomplish something together that we can't accomplish on our own. Right, anyone else? Let's follow Ben Dwight. Okay, great. So open government, I guess it's more than just being able to access information and data. It's being able to do things in the public like we talked about at the conference. So policy decisions and consultations and participating and how government works. And I think open government right now, we're fairly open, we're pretty good, but it's a little bit like going to the archives where you go along and you say, I'd like some access to something and then they go into the back room and they find you something and they bring it out and it's open government for me would be more like a library in the future where we all walk in and everything that we can access, everything that's open, not the hidden stuff that we're not allowed to see because it's bad, but all the open stuff is there on the shelves and everyone can just do what they need to do and then they can collaborate and talk about it and help government along the way. That's what I see. With my developer hat on, I'd really love to be able to submit a pull request to every government website, even to fix things. That would be awesome. A sort of stretching on from that, it would be really cool to see things like policy creation done out in the open, again using that pull request mentality that I love because I'm a developer. To be able to actually propose something against a piece of policy that's being created would be really awesome. But what that kind of requires, well, that's one part. It requires the government to participate in open that is put the policy out in the open to start with as it's being worked on. But what it also requires is a second part of open which is reflective openness, the ability for the government to actually take citizens' ideas and really look at them and challenge their thinking inside government and accept them into policy or as a piece of code into a web project or anything like that. Open government requires two parts. It requires participatory openness and reflective openness as a whole system. One of the best examples I've seen of open government is I was living in Vancouver two years ago and the local council have something inspired by basically it was called Breaking the Fourth War which is to kind of invite people to participate in local decision making at that kind of local council level and basically it works a little bit like Reddit where people would go and upload a suggestion and then other people would then upvote that one and then based on that those ideas would then be presented to decision makers once a month and that was kind of fed back in a live stream to the people there. That was quite innovative and really new and really interesting and I mean Vancouver are quite progressive anyway they want to be like the greenest city in the world by 2020 so they kind of have a culture where that has been fostered where people are kind of actively taking part in that and I think they can work at a local level open government to a degree but I haven't seen it work really really well on a national level yet and I think that's because there are so many decisions that I mean if we're dealing with every single decision being made at a national level in an open participatory way that would just be chaos to some degree. Potentially. So leading on to the next question should the government open source anything? Cam you mentioned, Benning you mentioned the hidden bad stuff that we're not allowed to see. Is that actually a thing? I think to put it no more in a smarter way it's basically in government we have information classifications we have stuff that's unclassified and then we have all these classifications from incompetence up to top secret and we judge whether something should be applied that it's not because of what it is it's based on what damage it would do to people so if that thing could cause damage to us like our privacy information, our business information that's not good for us. If it causes damage to New Zealand businesses or New Zealand as a country or to our neighbouring countries all those things are obviously bad so we judge things on if they're going to cause damage to anybody so obviously those things are. Benning do you have any thoughts on what might not be okay to open source I think like the nuclear launch codes for example When government first gets involved with open source there's a lot of things that are just so custom built and so purpose built that open sourcing them wouldn't really do anything and so if it's the configuration for how the printer works in a government agency you can open source that but no one's going to do anything with that it's not really helpful and so the government to focus on its efforts on the kind of solve the problem once and the solutions that can benefit other government agencies and benefit citizens as well So you're saying it's things that add value and those things that should be open source? Yeah I mean open source isn't just about publishing source code when you develop open source software there's certain kind of mechanics that have to go into play you make it more modular you make it more abstract and applicable to other situations and unless you go through that exercise there's not a lot of value in open sourcing it Yeah That's on-line and if you want to keep feeding into that that's helpful So yesterday there was some great discussion about the stages of open government so we go from closed government, open on request open by default to open government What are the biggest barriers to the New Zealand government taking an open by default approach to code? Cam? Just ship it, it would be good Maybe the barriers are fear to just shipping it like Ben said in your article Ship the 0.1 not the 1.0 of the code let people see what you're working on One because it can catch things like bugs early or it can get participation from the wider open source community but two it sends a signal to other agencies that may need the same thing and it helps them discover and find those things that are being built out in open source so that they can use their resources to build the one thing without having to duplicate and build it in a silo somewhere else which is great because it's a force multiplier for our tax dollar basically so once reuse it across as many agencies as we can and it also has benefits out in wider society as well so if government agencies are building really cool things and that's for anyone to go and grab and use and poke and prod and play with things like nonprofits can grab that code and build sites to run their nonprofits or processes to run their nonprofits and that's money better spent on what the nonprofit job is actually there to do which is to solve social problems and it can also help our economic growth as well if we're building a nice baseline that anyone can build on that's a nice level playing field for startups to get involved on and then they can build their unique value on top of that baseline layer so it has wider implications for society Great I think for New Zealand the biggest challenge we have around that is the maturity of some of the products so we are very much in this private public partnership we outsource a lot so we rely on government and the companies in New Zealand working together and where there are companies who are great in the open source so for example Silverstripe have their open source CMS Moodle is a great example it's a great learning management system Mahara we saw yesterday these are all examples of mature open source products and we have capability to use them but when we look at for example Microsoft Word we all use Microsoft Word Do we? Yeah we love Microsoft Word Why am I using Linux with open office and I think it's not just that that government we are like we love Microsoft Word I don't think that's the truth I think there's a little bit of people coming forward who are real experts in this and making it like a really easy thing for us to use and if that public-private partnership grew I think you bring up the right point there's kind of two sides to the discussion there's using open source as a platform and building an open source which is a threshold issue and then there's publishing out open source on the platform side of things what are you actually building on are you building on cold fusion and Java are you building in PHP and Ruby government CIOs have a tendency to want enterprise grade solutions they want the enterprise this, the enterprise that there are suits behind enterprise grade solutions there are men and women that put on nice clothes and walk into government agencies and say you should use our product with a couple exceptions like automatic behind WordPress or red hat behind Litix open source doesn't have people selling it within the government agencies and the government contractors that support that don't really know the open source software as well so you have to tackle that before you can even think about publishing out open source or using open source it's just a matter of what platform you're building on so what we're saying is that a lot of the time these platforms are being built on closed platforms so and the code isn't being released to the public any more thoughts on how we could kick this into action a bit I know Yene you had some thoughts yesterday I mean I think we have to show good examples and show where it's saving money people care about money so the com web platform for example we open source things and when we set it up we built something in called a co-funded pool and that means that every person that's using it contributes some hours and then mutually we can build open source things and we give back to the community so we've got a mechanism where we don't have to agencies don't have to find extra money in their pockets to pay for these things to happen so that really helps but that's a good example and there are other examples where we are open sourcing and if we can tie that back into the economic benefits and show that it's working and get some case studies from not for profits for example where they've benefited from the work that we've done or even businesses that go out and they benefit and they might make a new app or a new business model and then they might do really well and they might pay more taxes and that's okay as well because that's how we pay for government so I think it's really good examples and we can build slowly we might need some hustlers men and women in nice suits behind the scenes to go and lobby to get more of this happening we should buy nice suits I think also there's kind of an underlying assumption that we're skipping here is the technology is the easy part it's not a question of can we put this bill up online and have a mechanism for people to post comments on it these are all solved problems you're using technologies and excuse you don't want to change and reimagine the relationship between citizens and government and in order to do that you have to re-look at the workflows within government agencies you can't have an open source workflow outside the firewall and as we talked about yesterday this cold war era workflow inside the firewall that's very closed and very hostile you can't have this kind of culture of no where every time an idea is proposed there's this organizational immune system that is seen as a liability and not as an asset and so working on the human side of the problem rather than the technical side of the problem great so New Zealand has a policy on open sourcing information and data but no policy on open sourcing software and IT the UK and Australia have a policy on software and IT which is open by default and the United States is trying to get to an open source software policy by year's end this is all great but how substantial and how deep does this really go are we just getting the open scraps from the table while things like the TPPA are going on is this just open wash Mary Ann, my boss her and I were having a conversation about this yesterday and it's like what is the point and release it's great to appease the need or put a whole bunch of data out there but if that comes at the expense of cutting funding to rape crisis centres whilst you're also simultaneously stopping NGOs from being able to speak up and advocate for certain issues then that's semi counterproductive which was an interesting point because it's like I guess it's a matter of prioritising certain issues I think it's really important that we open up everything really but at the same time it's like who's deciding what we open up and where and is that part participatory do we get to have a say and that sort of side of things as well anyone else Just on the policy side of things so I I work quite closely with Benny with the common web platform side of things and one of the things that Keith and Booth talked about yesterday was the NZ Goal framework which is pretty much set up to help government decide what kinds of creative commons licences to release open data out with and web content and everything else but it doesn't include very much about open source software in fact there's one paragraph which basically says yeah just use open source licences which I find interesting that we don't have a really strong policy on that and if we don't have a strong policy on that is that potentially something that is limiting government's ability to engage and do open source software very well does it become this chicken egg kind of thing where there's no policy so they don't do it so there's no demand so there's no policy on it which is again one of the things Keith and Booth said was that we haven't written the policy because we haven't seen the demand but I'm seeing more and more demand for it you know on the ground when I'm working with government people getting into open source software so then I challenge everyone to get out there and help drive demand for government open source if you work in an open source community and there are government ICT workers coming in and trying to work it out it's our responsibility and to role model and to help these people learn about the stuff and get into government with it so yeah I think a lot of times our kind of efforts as open source are seen as a bunch of hippies with tie-dye laptops that are passing around code like you might pass around a listed substance you know and these kind of conversations maybe they are a little bit of open washing but they lay the groundwork and they lay the framework that if we shoot for ten maybe we'll get to five because right now we're at kind of close to zero if you watch House of Cards or West Wing you kind of stereotypically the way government works is Coca-Cola or McDonald's shows up and says this bill says blue and I think it should say green I'm just going to leave this money right here you do with it what you want right and the kind of world that we're imagining even though we're not going to get there tomorrow imagine if that same exact scenario happened and the congressperson the representative was like it's open source like you're welcome to submit a poll request you know not only is then that lobbyist on equal footing with the 18-year-old in her high school civics class but also then you capture process and you expose process and you get to see who proposed changes why those changes were proposed and we're not going to get there tomorrow and we're kind of talking about the ideal but at least we can get to two to three to four to five if we shoot for ten I don't think people in government sit out to open wash either I mean perhaps it's just lack of awareness and again we need to learn more about it we need to make sure that that people in government are aware of what it really means to be open I'm clear that's not here today but I will have a talk to her because I think the policy is needed we do have something called the ICT action and strategy plan and that's recently been revised and what we're trying to do in ICT is stop having 270 bits of the public sector all standing up their own server rooms and doing their own stuff it's chaos and it's a real waste of everyone's money so we're trying to think across the system and come up with platforms that are useful across the system so in that action plan it actually says that policies platforms and something else useful are shared and opened and I think what that kind of means is yes we're going to be sharing them because we're thinking across the whole system but also there's I'm not really a technologist but I think if you use open standards things connect better if everyone's using proprietary standards and using different ones it doesn't stick together very well does it so I think there is only one way to have system wide things that will keep working and when someone the classic one is some proprietary system that we all installed and then the Microsoft or whatever they stopped supporting it and then we can't get off it and government sticks on something like IE6 for 10 years and those kind of scenarios have played up before and so I think the open standards it's actually a pragmatic and necessary thing that we have to do to deal with so I'm going to go and I've seen Keith there on Monday morning run us in policy in the US we're still on democracy 1.0 we just haven't gotten the patch to upgrade it yet there's a pending call request okay so what are the incentives then for citizens and businesses to contribute to these projects Lord do you think citizens need to feel more engaged and more represented in order to do this? Yep definitely I mean the voter turnout is just kind of like one example of the decline in people wanting to engage in such issues and that's a problem that we're seeing all around the world which is bad and I think for me a lot of that comes down to engaging storytelling because there are people who are doing this really excellent work behind the scenes but unless that story is told really really well in a compelling way which kind of evokes an emotion in which you take action and that's not really going to work and that's what Ben was saying about the kind of working on the human element of things is that if we don't figure that part out and I think quite a lot of the time because I work I mean I work largely on the human element I guess and it's a conversation I have in my circle of friends especially activists where we don't often look after the people who are kind of nurturing and making sure that the storytellers and the communicators are an essential part of the ecosystem and creating that kind of change that we're wanting to see so I don't really have a solution to that except that we need to keep trying all the time to be telling those stories all the time and going away from these conferences and telling five people about these sorts of things who don't come in these circles, people who don't look like us like what Jessica was saying yesterday Benefits for me I'm really interested in communities as social learning systems that's kind of my lens that I look at communities with so benefits for me to getting people in government let's be honest it's not government it's people in government the government is not the simplest thing that goes around and learns things, it's people Governments are people too and so are people in government but to me it's about knowledge and learning so if a community is a social learning system then getting more people and government into these social learning systems improves the knowledge and learning about all these things which we desperately need Great moving moving a bit more into the topic around data now and according to some that I've heard here at OSOS the government is playing a game of appeasement by releasing data sets can you give some thoughts around whether this data is actually usable and relevant to wider society and if not how can we make it so I have worked on data.gov as a product manager for a while so I think the reason why we share that data is two reasons one is transparency we have to put up every year the chief executive expenses which is such a bore it's a spreadsheet showing how many taxis they took and it's not really useful data but it is really good that we have that transparency so that's one of the things that it does achieve and then with the open data the other challenge is we know it has some benefits people are using it but like Keith has said yesterday they don't really tell us how they use it so it's this intangible thing like we can't put a figure to it so it's a little bit of speaking from a government perspective we do need that feedback and then we need you to say actually apart from that we would really like this data and then it helps us prioritise so the UK I went to visit them and they did something pretty smart they published all of their data sets including the ones that weren't available they just listed them all up and imported them into their website and then the public came along and they said oh look you've actually got data about that that would be really useful for my project for my research and I think that's something that we would like to get to is at least have a catalogue of what that data is so that the public can say what they want and that'll be more useful I hope I'm going to kick myself for saying this but I think there's no such thing as a bad data set from a citizen perspective as governments are using algorithms and data to control regulatory affairs it provides citizens with an opportunity to check their work and from a business perspective and kind of a civic entrepreneur perspective open data creates entire industries the example everyone turns to is GPS and GPS data was originally released no one could have imagined Uber no one could have imagined Google Maps no one could have imagined the entire industry that was spurred from one government data set so you kind of like just throw it all out there and see what entrepreneurs can come up with and use it for I think data is the first step as well too there's that whole hierarchy of knowledge which you start with data which is your raw stuff that's not super useful you can't kind of just look over it and find a pattern in it and put it into information which is what a lot of people may do with government data sets but what we need to get to with it is knowledge we need to get to a place where we understand what the data is actually telling us and actually drive some action from that data to make great decisions in our government basically also the thing is with data I mean there's so much unless it's coupled with like meaningful action like climate change data for instance then the decision like I don't know it's an interesting one because if we make this information really available but if the decisions that are affecting us are still not even scientifically related then what is the point in having this data if you're in the US the politicians just ignore that too soon so Laura how do you think we can get the public to engage with this open data enough that it would influence decision makers or information rather than data we need to embrace the storytellers and I'll just keep saying that because they we have you know I think it's only just in the last like 5 or 10 years that they've had the science communicators masters in Otago and we sort of need policy communicators and we need data communicators to be able to kind of engage people in these sorts of things and it's like being saying it's not going to happen overnight but it just needs to keep happening I think and partnerships with these storytellers with developers to take the data turn it into something worth telling a story about will be really cool so the more more cool tools we can build open source tools that we can build that use the data, data by itself isn't doing very much it needs a partnership of open data and open source software to complete the whole system really to get the best value out of it great so Ben what are some of the myths around open government that should be debunked myths around open government that should be debunked I talked earlier about the fact that it's a technology challenge I think the biggest myth is that it's hard I think for government agencies your first commit is the hardest and then after that every commit gets a little bit easier and so if you two things one if you can involve non-technical people so you get the geek that cares about open source to help their legal team their security team, their procurement team their public affairs team to do something stupid to create a list of your favourite chocolate chip recipes or whatever it might be just to go through those motions and show that it's not scary it's not hard and then the second side of that is that it's culture it's bringing the internet culture into the government when I was a government employee one of my favourite things to do is we get these formal policy memos of this day your TPS reports on all your reports whatever it might be animated gifs are a simple, very simple way if you were applied to an animated gif the tone of the conversation changes and you show that you can be professional without being formal and that there are different ways of doing things and you inject a little bit of internet culture and bring a little bit of the internet into government rather than trying to bring the government to the internet Culture is the hardest thing to change as well because it's something that we take for granted every day it's just how we do things and it's maybe helping the government or people in the government to challenge how they do things to actually look at the assumptions they're making maybe the way they do things was based on someone's assumption 30 years ago and it's still stuck and there's actually no policy that actually is forcing them to do a thing a certain way someone just assumed it and it just got carried away and it's still going so challenging the assumptions in that culture is super important I think you had a great point that there's this tendency in government to think that habit is law and because you've been doing something a certain way for a long period of time that's the way it has to be done and change agents in government a lot of times it's just a matter of saying can you point to the rule to the regulation to the policy and how can we comply with that oh you can't a lot of times these regulations are like well no and there's no opportunity to comply with that it's just like a blanket stamp that can only say no any of the ground truth in doing the 5Ys can get through that highly recommend that exercise 5Ys I played a little with that on the Lumio channel when we were getting the questions for this because it was a nice way to drill down into what people are asking and trying to tune that into a question for the panel for those of us that are not exposed to that the idea if your security officer says you can't use Twitter you say okay why and they say because it's against agency policy that's one and you say why and then you go down the path through 5Ys until you finally get to yes yeah and it gets you it gets you to the core the core of things basically great so what tools and guidance are available to help agencies begin their open journey now and what could be created beyond this Benny do you want to start or do you want to sell this do you want to sell this do you want to sell this tools of course it's really awesome again I said a community is a social learning system I guess that could be classed as a tool a tool to help share knowledge across boundaries as well because if we have a like I'm really interested in this concept of communities of practice which is this notion that community practice is a group of people that get together around a topic of knowledge regularly and they learn to do it better basically so to me that sounds like an open source software community but you know I'm biased there so it becomes a social learning system for anyone who enters into that domain of knowledge space so that is anyone from any company that wants to for example for example Silverstrike open source I've got people coming in from various companies and using it as a learning space and got people from different government agencies coming in but what it does is it helps to share knowledge across the boundaries of those organisations so it does become a tool to actually help share the knowledge about how to do this stuff and it helps those people that participate in the community to become a practitioner of whatever topic of knowledge is going on inside that community and being a practitioner is really cool because what it also does is it helps I'll frame it this way like you probably had a time where that IT guy who knew everything about that thing left your organisation and all their knowledge walked out the door happens so often where if you store your knowledge in a community and someone's a practitioner of that community if they leave a company and that company still interacts with that community then knowledge never really disappears it's still in the community so basically communities are a social database which I find quite interesting because we've got test technology and we've got express technology and we can write all the documentation in the world that you like but you'll never capture the nuance of humans in that documentation so it requires communities to help actually share that extra piece of knowledge which is usually the most juicy and to have government come into those spaces and learn that stuff is really cool so that's a really good tool for doing that what that requires though is people and government coming into that community and for that community to welcome people in I think there was a talk yesterday that said open source communities are scary places heaps of trolls floating around in there so like part of my work at Silver Stripe is to find those ways to bring people across the boundaries of our community through training and through doing things like this panel and just being an all-round nice person who welcomes people into our community you are a very nice person I think you are I think overall for government it's not that easy the information tools are not that great like if I were to give some examples of your classic open source argument like encyclopedia botanica always goes out of date, print all the books Wikipedia is always up to date these classic examples everyone goes that makes perfect sense but there isn't really a place where you go where government staff learn about these things and it is so actually I'm working with Cam at the moment and we put together two papers and I say we mostly Cam but I'm going to get them sort of web-edited and play in English the draft of that paper is actually completely creative comments on GitHub at mygithub.com go find it and do whatever the heck you want with it because it's open we saw two problems really it's the why, why do it and most people understand that and then there's actually the how to what's the difference between copyright and licensing most of you probably get it but it's not that clear how do you apply an open source license which one do you choose there's no policy for it so we've sort of written some guidance which will help our community but it's not that easy at this stage and if I send I know Ben's written a lot about this topic but how do we get that information more readily distributed I think to bring things full circle community is the biggest tool and to make things practical for a moment if you are a government employee you can go to github.com slash government and it will automatically authenticate you with your government email address and we have a semi-private peer group available only to government employees that kind of just socialize best practices and collaborate on these kind of questions that we up here can kind of paraphrase and tell stories but it's a lot easier to hear it directly from others that have been there and others that have already done that so just go to github.com slash government and you can automatically sign up and ask these kind of questions and get those kind of tools and resources you need from others that have been there or are in the same footing and shoes as you and are going through it now can I go back to the engaging communities thing quickly because the question about tools reminded me of like in the last election was me here, ask away? Yeah, so ask away does everyone know what ask away is? No, okay so ask away is this really awesome tool where you can basically go on and ask a candidate or an MP a question and then they respond to you and it's in the public domain so everyone can see them and people upvote the questions that they really like and then the thinking behind that is like obviously lots of people want to know the answer for this question so can you please answer it and it was amazing but the problem in part of it was that only certain MPs were answering those questions so here was this incredible tool that someone had seen a problem with and built for people to engage in and it got tens of thousands of users which is incredible but unless that decision maker was held accountable to actually respond then that was really difficult and that makes it harder for people to for the communicators like me to engage people in this because if only some of the people are listening they're not quite responsive enough and I think fyi.org.nz is an amazing tool we use that to mobilise people yeah thanks to fyi I love it we use that and ask people to make away requests on the TPPA and like obviously they all got declined but that was in the public domain and that's really cool because it's transparent it's in the public domain and it's an engaging easy to use tool that anyone can just kind of go and use I think you know Lumio and the internet party was coming up and they crowdsourced all of their policies that was an amazing tool to see people kind of stepping up and using but again unless we can like get the decision maker to respond to them it's like this loop that's really really hard absolutely I would really like to see us tackle the local government elections because I'm sure all of you have tried to vote at the local government and you get this thing through with these faces I don't know who these people are what they really stand for and the first thing that we could approach we should definitely be able to fix this for the next local government election it's just, who are these people we never know Go talk to Benny after if you want to start doing that so how can open sourcing promote more productive behaviours of tolerance and respect and the example given on this on Lumio was the sometimes infantile behaviour of politicians and parliament so how can this ethos contribute to more productive behaviours of tolerance and respect Reality TV No but really like I'm saying this because what we see on parliament TV if you watch it like it's just this mud slinging competition but I've been behind the scenes with some of those MPs and I've seen that in Labour MPs have beers with one another and if people saw more of that kind of stuff behind the scenes they'd probably be more humanising instead of just this kind of like all they do is yell at each other and that's not very interesting but like you still want that in the reality TV show because that's why the Kardashians are so popular right because it's got a bit of the yelling but then it's got the you know yeah let's go party on a boat and they say you know you need both and you don't want the Kardashians writing economic policy either so Great so we're about at time and on that bombshell things we came up with the OSOS reality TV so we're at 12.30 it's lunchtime and there's still a few questions that we haven't quite got to so please continue the Lumio feed and keep talking about these things and obviously go and talk to our great panellists in the lunch break but just a huge thank you to all of you for being on the panel and for sharing your thoughts round of applause