 that. Hey Fred, can you say something so we know if your microphone's working when you unmute? Yes, I, yeah, I checked this out a little while ago. Okay, good, thank you. Okay, Mr. Marshall, it is 633. You do have a quorum. The attendees are joining us. I see Amherst Media is in the house. I am about to make you yourself the co-host. I think we are good to go. Okay, thanks Pam. You're welcome. Welcome to the Amherst Planning Board meeting of December 20th, 2023. My name is Doug Marshall and as the Chair of the Amherst Planning Board, I am calling this meeting to order at 633 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and is available live-streamed via Amherst Media. Minutes are being taken. Pursuant to Chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021 and extended by Chapter 2 of the Acts of 2023, this Planning Board meeting, including public hearings, will be conducted via remote means using the Zoom platform. The Zoom meeting link is accessible on the meeting agenda posted on the town website's calendar listing for this meeting. Or go to the Planning Board webpage and click on the most recent agenda where the Zoom link is listed at the top of the page. No in-person attendance of the public is permitted. However, every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately access the meeting in real time via technological means. In the event we are unable to do so for reasons of economic hardship or despite best efforts, we will post an audio or video recording, transcript or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting on the town of Amherst website. Board members, when I will take a roll call, when I call your name, unmute yourself, answer affirmatively, and return to mute. Bruce Cole. I'm here. Fred Hartwell. I am here. Jesse Major. Present. I, Doug Marshall, am present. Janet McGowan. Here. Johanna Newman. Present. And looks like Karen Winter has joined us. Present. Thank you. Thank you all. Board members, if technical issues arise, we may need to pause to fix the problem and then continue the meeting. If the discussion needs to pause, it will be noted in the minutes. Please use the raise hand function to ask a question or make a comment. I will see your request and call on you to speak. After speaking, remember to re-mute yourself. To the general public, the general public comment item is reserved for public comment regarding items not on tonight's agenda. Please be aware the board will not respond to comments during general public comment period. Public comment may also be heard at other times during the meeting when deemed appropriate by the planning board chair. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you have joined the Zoom meeting using a telephone, please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. When called on, please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. Residents can express their views for up to three minutes or at the discretion of the planning board chair. If a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds their allotted time, their participation may be disconnected from the meeting. All right. So it's time now at 6.36. And our first item on our agenda is minutes. And Pam or Chris, I didn't see any minutes in the packet that I was mailed. Am I correct? There are none tonight. That is correct. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Pam. All right. Moving on to general public comment period. Let's see. How many attendees we have and who are they? Okay. I see 10 attendees. And I will read the names. We have our liaison from council, Pam Rooney, someone just designated as Andrew, Claire Bertrand, David Zomek, first name Grace, Jack Jay, Jennifer Mullins, Karen Sanchez Epler, Marilyn Billings, and Maura Keane. So at this time, I'd like to ask the public if you want to make a comment for during this public comment period. A reminder, it's for things not on tonight's agenda, so it should not be about the Pickery Ridge project. And I see one hand from Pam Rooney. Pam, let's bring Pam in. And Pam, I guess I need you to give us your name and your address, even though many of us already know you. Thank you. Pam Rooney, 42 Cottage Street. I'm just speaking as a person living on Cottage Street. I was thinking about the University Drive project. I know that it's on your agenda tonight, but I may not be able to stay on the meeting that long to get to it. And it occurred to me that there was some really good discussion about if there was an overlay district of any sort that the idea was floated of five-story buildings. Currently, there are three stories allowed in much of that area. And it occurred to me that it would be a really wonderful opportunity to utilize the gift of an additional two floors or two stories to these buildings if there were some conditions that were imposed to obtain something for the town and the conditions that might be imposed in order to gain a couple more floors of of height and an income would be that there might be the opportunity for some mid-level, mid-income housing and family housing that's incorporated into the design of the facilities. So it's just something to think about rather than giving away the store with the first pass, having some condition for allotting or adding two floors to the project might be really helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Pam. I don't see any other hands from any of the public. So I'll wait just a few more seconds if anybody wants to raise their hand. Okay, I guess we'll go ahead and we'll move on to the next item on our agenda. All right, so the next item starting now at 640 is a public hearing on a site plan review. In accordance with the provisions of mass general law chapter 40a, these public hearings have been duly advertised and notice thereof has been posted and is being held for the purposes of providing the opportunity for interested citizens to be heard. These public hearings are continued from November 15th and are 2023 and are opened simultaneously for the purpose of discussion. So, Pam, that text was incorrect, was it not? Sure was. So sorry about that. Yeah, that's not correct. This is a single public hearing. It is not continued from a previous date. Nope, sorry about that. I should have read this earlier to see if I had any mistakes or questions. I should have done a better job. I'm so sorry. So it is a single site plan review public hearing. It has been duly advertised and you are right. We are opening it tonight for the very first time. My apologies. I'm not losing my memory. Okay, so this is SPR 2024-03, town of Amherst, 191 West Pomeroy Lane. Request site plan review approval to install two ADA universally accessible six foot wide crushed stone paths, accessible foot bridges and other site improvements including boardwalks, benches, signage, kiosks, bike racks, shade structures, upgrades to existing parking area and a connector path under article three section 3.335 and article eight of the zoning bylaw. In the RO and RN zoning districts in the flood prone conservancy district and the FEMA flood plain overlay district map 19D and parcel 10. So do we have any board member disclosures of this project? I don't see any hands related to that. So with that we can go on to our applicant presentation and I guess I'll suspect that it's Dave here to introduce the topic. Welcome Dave. Thank you very much Doug. I'm happy to be here tonight. I'm also joined by Jennifer Mullins, our permanent administrator and Jennifer was instrumental in pulling this application together and I or other staff members may refer to Jennifer this evening but we're happy to be here. I think I just wanted to remind Nate I think when we turn to some of the diagrams for the presentation I think Nate are you prepared to kind of run that show a little bit while I speak? Yes, great. Well thank you very much for having us tonight. We're excited to be here to and really this kind of kicks off you know the beginning phases of the planning process for the former Hickory Ridge Golf Course. I just wanted to give a little quick background and then get into the project that we're here to talk with you about tonight but just for the public listening and for the board members very quickly you know the town a few years ago did move forward and purchased the 150 acre Hickory Ridge Golf Course a very exciting and and probably once in a lifetime opportunity for the town to acquire this incredible property with over a mile of frontage along the Fort River and we did so with a number of goals in mind. I won't go into great detail on all of those. The project I should state right out of the gate that the project did come with a solar already assumed on the property so the former owners had already really struck a deal that there would be 26 acres of solar on the property and as you know that property has already gone through many boards and committees in town and is under construction right now so there will be 26 acres of solar. We have two pads if you will a central and a western pad of solar and that project will be moving forward in earnest in in 24. So the town acquired the property with multiple purposes a large a large part of our interest in the property was connectivity to try to help those residents to the living to the north of the property and to the south of the property in a number of apartment complexes. Mill Valley renew the boulders as well as Orchard Valley to the south to really reconnect with this incredible piece of property. So at the current time my staff and I are developing a comprehensive plan which will include a number of different elements of the development of this property but we had a couple of opportunities early on to get funding to implement one phase of that plan and that is to get going on the connectivity piece and so we were fortunate to apply for and receive a park grant to build construct design and construct an ADA accessible loop trail which I'll tell you about in a minute and then we were also fortunate enough to get CDBG community development block grant funding through the town or what we're calling a north south connector or a core trail that will connect those residents living to the north in the neighborhoods to the north with the the budding village center down at Pomeroy village center. So with that Nate maybe I could ask you to put up the trail map and Nate will as I speak I think you'll kind of take us around the the the property. Or Pym do you have that ready I was downloading all the documents but I realize there's quite a few of them. You might just have to remind me like which document is which. Okay so the trail map would be the trail furnishings. By the site map is what I'm guessing as the do you see it this right down here. Yeah this is the one right Dave that's what you're considering the trail map. That is not the annotated one Nate that you developed. You notice there are no there are no numbers on it wait just a moment here to see if we can there we go okay and if you could just bring that up a little band that would be great. Right and then Nate are you able to control the cursor. Can you get it Nate. Yeah I mean I think so I'm not I guess we'll have to see where what Dave how you're when you're talking I can you know annotate or do things that we're speaking yeah. Why don't we just start with a brief orientation to the property and so I think we're the the proposal before you orient from the parking lot off of West Pomeroy Lane which is in the lower center portion of your screen and this image and it has very you know Pickery Ridge has a very large existing parking lot and so our plan is to develop at least part of the trail system around that existing parking. The former clubhouse just to the west of that will eventually be demolished but for the mean in the meantime it will remain on the site until we're able to get funding to remove that structure. So our goal here is twofold one is to create a trail system from that parking lot and then we're calling that the loop trail and that begins at the parking lot it's a six foot wide crush stone stone dust trail it meets or exceeds all ADA requirements for slope and it will basically take visitors on this loop that Nate is now following and if any of you just to give you a sense if any of you have been to the Conti Refuge in Hadley on Moody Bridge Road to their trail system part of that trail system is a crushed stone path the remainder of that trail system is actually an elevated boardwalk with pressure treated lumber most of this trail will actually be a six foot wide crush stone trail we don't have a lot of elevated systems sections so the loop trail includes three small bridges or two bridges and one boardwalk number one is an area of wetland and a stream crossing we're proposing to install a bridge there that will double as both a pedestrian bridge but also a bridge that will hold small vehicles like conservation trucks and mowers and then as you loop around toward the Fort River toward number two we need to span a short wetland there and so there will be a slightly elevated boardwalk there to safely traverse over the wetland but also to protect the wetland from impacts of of human traffic if you will and then number three is a very small bridge that will be installed after we remove a culvert and that bridge will just be a pedestrian a simple bridge and I believe in your packet are the plans for those three structures I want to point out that a fundamental element of all of this work is ecological restoration so we are removing a number of culverts in in all of these areas our goal would be to remove culverts that have impacted the natural flow of streams and wetlands that are trying to move water toward the Fort River so as we go we'll remove the culverts and replace them with bridges that give wildlife a chance to move more freely but also water and reptiles and amphibians that that depend on that water as well so that is the loop trail I want to call attention before we go to the north south trail I want to call attention we do have a schematic in your packet we will be improving the parking area that Nate could outline and I believe that schematic was in that plan is in your your your packet it will include crack ceiling the parking lot and defining the parking lot really relining repainting the various um parking areas parking spaces as well as yes this is a good place to start so what we're doing here is uh Nate perhaps you could show us the the current main entrance to the former clubhouse is in purple and our goal here is to to move um from a safety standpoint and an aesthetic standpoint our goal here is to move visitors away from the clubhouse if you will so we're going to redefine the parking the entrance will now be in brown where Nate's cursor is we will have visitors enter come down the hill there park there will be a da parking spaces clearly designated we're going to be crack ceiling the parking area and then we're going to be creating a walkway on the northern end of the parking lot to get people to the main entrance to the trail there's the layout there we go and so we'll we'll create this space between parking and pedestrians away from the building with jersey barriers for the time being and that way we can create some safe distance away from the building for those folks coming to to visit the area so that's the loop trail along the way we'll have benches we'll have signage there'll be an entrance kiosk that will welcome people to the conservation recreation area there'll be information about the trails contact information rules and regulations etc and then along the way will be a da benches we are also proposing on the property to areas where they're in the future there will be shade structures or gathering structures perhaps Nate you could show where those are on the loop trail the lower left right there and then the star indicates where the entry kiosk will be near the parking lot and along the way and I think they're blue they're a little small on my screen are bench locations so there'll be one two three four six five benches on that loop and then we're proposing additional benches throughout the rest of the trail system so perhaps I should stop here if that's okay with you Doug before I talk about the north south trail okay I'm happy to keep going and I think I think you should go ahead and do the whole thing and then we can have a site visit report and okay so the second part of this first phase is trail connectivity for those folks coming from the north and so what we are proposing using cdbg funds is a trail that comes from the northern edge of the property all the way down right through the core of the property if you will it hugs the the side of the solar array it then so in red and then Nate if you could back up you're going a little too fast for me there it then jumps on to an existing road crush stone crush gravel road at number five crosses the fort river and then picks up the remainder of the trail headed over to the east does another stream crossing over the plumbrook and then we're going to utilize up near number seven we're going to utilize an existing road that is an access road that our DPW owns the town owns to service a sewer pumping station at about number seven and that road will take people out to a brand new six or eight foot wide sidewalk on west street so that is the proposed route to get people to the village center which is just slightly down the down the street from Nate's cursor all right I want to I want to call out eventually in a second phase we will connect these two trails and Nate can take and show you so eventually we would like to connect the loop trail with the north south trail we don't have the funding for that right now but that would be a phase two in this process again these are six foot wide trails crushed stone or bituminous pavement all would be at five percent grade or less we would have benches along the way informational kiosks etc so why don't I stop there and open it up for questions all right Chris I see your hand you want to yeah I just wanted to ask Dave to show where the other shade structure might be located in the future Nate's cursor is on it I believe right now right there thank you okay now before before we open it up Doug I wanted to say that um citing these trails has been honestly one of the most complex certainly the most complex trail project that I've ever been involved with in my career Aaron Jock from our conservation department Nate Malloy former planner Ben Brager a number of staff members have been involved in this project but given the ecological sensitivity of the property wetlands vernal pools flood plain rare species habitat we have worked extensively with the conservation commission as well as the natural heritage program to find pathways and we are we are threading the needle I would say in trying to figure out how to bring these six foot wide uh brushstone paths through this property and still protect rare muscles rare turtles vernal pools etc so I think Aaron and Nate and and many others deserve a lot of credit we're also working very closely with Pure Sky the solar developer and they have been very accommodating and to our our requests of them as we share the site with with their solar project so I'm happy to stop there and take questions all right well well then why don't we go to the site uh visit by board members today I know at least a couple of people showed up um Chris uh or which board members were with you this afternoon or Bruce your hands and Janet were there yeah okay Bruce your your hand is up maybe you want to give the overview well I'll I'll give it briefly it was um much more pleasant than Monday I actually showed up on Monday and that was a howling blizzard uh to the uh and Joanna has the frosted version so between us is quite a coverage but today it was more benign uh and uh we uh walked uh about the first quarter or 20 percent perhaps of the loop trail down to where that bridge that David mentioned was being he explained uh in detail how that was uh part of the restoration project we saw the Colbert was there and you can certainly imagine a considerable difference and a more graceful connect that will happen with this project so far as that um watercourse the former watercourse from half a century ago will benefit and so forth um we saw the existing building David explained some of the concepts or notions for the whole site uh Rick uh we noted that he noted that this trail project was if it was is fitting in with a number of other projects for the site the solar project has been mentioned what was and is that there is the Hickory Ridge clubhouse there this project is steering clear of that uh in a way that will allow that uh project to be a future development it'll be a different type of development because it's undevelopable land unless he said there was about five acres I think of maybe I've got that wrong anyway a certain small fraction of the site is available and there will be plans for that and we saw where this project uh kind of interfaced or side by sided with that um there uh and we can see as we were there there were two or three people were bringing their themselves and their animals so it was even in this flooded state there were people who were coming down one imagines that this will be a highly valued and highly used based on that a highly valued and highly used project he mentioned the uh the value that this will bring to the neighborhoods on either side and there was some discussion about how in future that those neighborhoods hopefully could be uh um incentivized to um to to contribute to the maintenance and so forth of the whole enterprise which would be from the town's starting point of view a really good thing if it could be reliably made to happen I that's it for me I it was a it was cold Janet I mean Janet was there too okay Janet you want to add anything sure that those are great summaries um you know there was questions about whether there'll be garbage at the parking lot for dog waste or human waste and um the preference was that there'd be you know carry in carry out um you know clearly people with dogs are going to use a site so um some you know that's one thing um there are questions about maintenance of it because you know when I had walked a different part of the site before the meeting and um you know clearly they've been flooding and on some of the other you know like unofficial paths and there were lots of leaves and I was just thinking I know the town is really stretched on maintenance so there was a discussion about that um they were you know um we saw the culverts that were going to be moved and it looked like that would be a lot of restoration of natural streams that were sort of thwarted um questions about you know protecting turtles and things like that and that's all being covered by the natural heritage program to make sure that during construction turtles are kept out of the construction area and you know check to make sure that they are so that was a um concern and you know it was just it's a big it's a big site like you know from where we were we could see the fencing to the solar array but it was off in the distance um it just you know and then two people came up to walk the dogs and there were questions like oh are there gonna be benches and you know we're like yeah there's benches because these people wanted places to sit in places to be out of the sun so it looks like this project is really thought about a lot of these different issues all right thank you Bruce and Janet so board members questions for Dave and team I guess I'll I'll not I don't see any hands yet so I'll jump in with a couple um I guess the first one is Dave you talked about the sort of not the loop trail but that's called the north trail or whatever as a sort of path to the town center is that really a shorter way to the town center than any other way that they might have because it doesn't look like it's very direct um and then the second question I had right off the bat was what are the plans for the clubhouse and how would the parking area that's reserved for town use be used sure let me address the first question your first question Doug um so as far as I know you know without this trail the the shortest way to get to the village center would actually be to go on east Hadley road up to west street and then come all the way down west street over a very up and down sidewalk that is in so-so condition etc etc so by connecting two and we've had conversations with mill valley and the brook um and and they're very interested in this trail for their residents for outdoor recreation and enjoyment exercise etc in fact many of those residents are already using the property um this was the most direct route we could make for those residents um living to the north given the as I said kind of threading the needle between and among all the resource areas we did honestly hear and and I think chris or um jennifer may want to comment we did go to the daac and also the drb and we we got some very instructive feedback from both those groups there was a lot of discussion at the daac um um meeting about would there be any possibility in the future of putting in a sidewalk on west palmeroy lane to connect folks more directly that way east west to the property and I of of course said you know the town would be very interested in that in the future but it's not part of this grant cycle and um we've done some quick cost estimates and and given all the the stream crossings and wetland crossings there and the and just the distance we're probably looking at three quarters of a million to a million dollars to put a sidewalk down to the village center to the new roundabout so this was our way using existing pathways using the property itself in the most cost-effective way to try to get people north south um to the village center it's not I mean this is still this is a good bit of exercise to get down to mission cantina or el comalito or or the the the convenience store but it is a way and it will be you know at five percent grade or less it will be bikeable it will be you know uh if you have a young child who needs a stroller or uh something like that you will be able to take them over the bridges and over the entire trail so that was our initial goal your second question Doug was about the clubhouse and I think um ruse uh shared a little bit more of the detail that I shared with the group that made it out there today at three um again we're we're developing a comprehensive plan for the entire property that we will present to the conservation commission the planning board and eventually the town council but clearly the clubhouse needs to come down it was in poor shape when we bought it I bought the property the previous owners put very little money into it and it needs to come down we are trying to pull together a funding plan for that we estimate the uh demo cost and removal somewhere between a hundred and two hundred thousand dollars so it's not a an easy lift for us right now um but that area of the parking lot and the clubhouse as I shared with Bruce and Janet and others is the really the the only and most developable piece of the property given the frontage given the upland given the floodplain rare species habitat that is remaining on the property the other developable parcel uh part of the property was developed for solar and it's across the brook so we do need to look creatively at the parking lot and the the former clubhouse in recent months um we have we the staff and some boards and committees have been talking about this as a potential site for a south amherst fire station it clearly has enough acreage to do that and the topography would work other features it's on water and sewer it could also be looked at and we are looking at it perhaps for a say senior affordable housing it could also be a site for a future senior center or community center there are a number of different uses and I think by designing the uh pathways the way we are we don't preclude any of those things from happening okay uh on the uh on that path and the connection to the town center um have you talked with pvta about perhaps having a bus stop at the west street terminus of that path um there is a bus stop um in the village center right near um right across from the moan and dove so that is a very short walk north to the sewer right of way access that we own and the road that we will part of that road will be made into the connecting trail to hickory ridge so that is the proposed um um that is the proposed way that we believe people will get there they'll either come from the village center around the village center walk on the brand new sidewalk up to up a short walk to the north or they will take the bus down to the village center and again walk up north or ride their bike or with a family with a stroller and then jump on the trails and within minutes you're out in this remarkable property in it you know um you're surrounded by all the natural beauty of the former golf course okay i guess i was just thinking that if uh if i'm if i'm living in mill valley and i don't have a car um you know i may want to shorten my commute as much as i can so that i can get to the bus right as i come out uh rather than having to go down to the town center but that can be worked out later if it needs to change uh bruce i see your hand yes i didn't have any questions per se about the project as presented the what we didn't go through but i think probably we have privately is a extremely comprehensive documentation by dodson and flinker uh which indicates a thoroughly thought out project and i must admit i looked at it for half an hour or so and it was there was i didn't begin to get to the bottom of the of what was there so i i really think that the i personally have no particular concerns about the engineering the design there the the the concept of the trails where they're going how they're rooted um how they relate to wetlands uh they would explain the uh extraordinary uh um concern and and consideration of protection of wood turtles which involves in closing the site are going through with some kind of magic device which may be just a pair of eyes and a lot of experience and getting every bloody wood turtle out of the site and then having a gate that uh people who are building this project have to close after they go through it so the wood turtles don't inadvertently creep in and find themselves being squished i mean it was it just seemed to mean that this project is is covered every conceivable base so uh but there are two things i'd like to explore that really cropped up in the in the site meeting the site visit and janets mentioned uh one of them but uh i think uh because i thought that they might be uh we might choose to make them subjective conditions so the first one is uh we noticed a little green baggy of dog poop there that had been almost strategically placed uh right at the entrance to the path so someone was trying to send a message well uh the message that uh this project and the town apparently wants to send is carry in carry out and uh and they and David has said that the uh the the town is reluctant to install trash cans and specifically dog trash waste cans because they are just so disagreeable to have to deal with that uh that they would really like to avoid that and to encourage people to behave properly and and bring out what they take in and so therefore it occurred to us that we could assist that in if we decided to um apply a condition that basically said that uh that this uh that the board's review condition that this project be managed uh or that the management clan include the stressing of the carry and carry out policy and if we were to do that we would probably help um uh give authority to the town's attempts to do that but I wanted uh to ask first of all to ask David to comment on that uh and such that uh we could consider whether or not some condition of that sort might be appropriate okay I'm you know as I stated to Bruce and and Janet and others on the site visit I'm certainly supportive of that um we uh we do struggle both the department of public works and the conservation department and the recreation department all three departments struggle with the um dual use of our recreation lands our parks our commons and our conservation lands dual use by by dog walkers and and again it's um it's uh it's a very common use it may be one of the highest uses of of our lands but the dog waste issue is very real one part of that is that many people do not pick it up and to uh those folks who do pick it up sometimes leave it often leave it along the trail they they hang them from trees um and when we do have receptacles I believe we have five to seven receptacles around town it is a very large burden for staff to have to pick up usually weekly do that run and dispose of that waste and those waste receptacles are at places like Mill River Park Poffers pond Amethyst Brook um I know we have some at the dog park that's a that's a little bit different facility but these are at trail ends so um I would very much like this to mimic Conti Conti uh as far as I know the trail in Hadley does not have any dog waste receptacles it's carry in carry out dogs must be on a leash at Conti and I have never seen a dog off leash at the Conti refuge trail um I think that would be wonderful um I do think we're going to have to be a little flexible if we find the dog waste becomes a real problem at Hickory as these trails are come into operation we may we may at some point have to do the receptacles it's just a reality but I would I would very much not like to do it and the same holds true of trash receptacles if we put out trash waste cans people will fill them up they will come at night and fill them up with household waste so I really I'd favor carry in carry out and people taking personal responsibility for themselves and their dogs is there are there any uh such places in Amherst where dogs are just not allowed is that a precedent all all 80 miles of our trails conservation trails in Amherst are open to dog walking our policy is dogs our policy the conservation commission's policy currently is dogs must be on leash at all times on conservation land except they can be off leash at Amethyst Brook and the Lower Mill River area during certain times of the early morning that's the policy it's hard to enforce and uh there is I believe some evidence that dog waste left in the landscape contributes to pollution in the waterways have we got any sort of public information boards that remind people of that what we do we we have signs all over town the data is very clear on that I wish we were more successful we might need to do more of a public campaign on that but okay we are having water quality issues in the Fort River in the Mill River and above respond and some of that may be um some dog waste may contribute to that but I don't want to get too far into the weeds on this um unless you all do okay Janet so this issue is in my wheelhouse um since I have a dog and um I walk them on trails in the street and there's definitely a problem with people you know like this issue I wonder though if we put it in the permit and say you know carry in carry out if that's just going to tie your hands because I would rather have the conservation department and just decide a policy and put it on a sign and you know enforce that um as one thing because I you might want the flexibility of changing later and you don't want to come back and change the condition with us because it seems kind of a time waste I also wonder if you might and this is not to be put in the permit but just have you know bags dog bags there so and you know signage saying carry it out but you know like giving you know providing those I don't know if you do that at other parks but I have like when I first moved to Amherst Amit this Brooke was just horrendous and I have a dog and I was just I started avoiding it because it was so unclean and we definitely want to keep that out of the Fort River I think so I think that might be best to leave it to you but if it helps you we could put it as a condition I tend to agree with Janet I think I think it might tie our hands a little too tightly and I just don't want to have to come back if it's changed I hear you on the dog bag waste bag the feedback we've gotten on that Janet is if you put up the bags then you need to put up the receptacle for the bags once they've been used so believe me I would love to just put out the bags and have people take it in their car practically speaking what people do is they leave it for us on the ground and we'd rather have it in a container than on the ground or eyed to trees or or thrown into the bushes which happens to so anyway I do agree with you I think a condition might be a little too restrictive okay um Johanna thank you my question has to do with flooding and the river jumping its banks which you know happens and is going to happen more frequently and I'm just how how are you thinking about this new infrastructure and preparing it for more frequent and more severe flooding events yeah that's a great question and I came up on the site visit Johanna and so first of all we're we're really trying to be minimalist out there in terms of what we put up I am super conscious of sign pollution I think I might go a little overboard sometimes I think we actually need clearer signs case in point is a certain parking lot near Stanley street where we need better signage but anyway um we're taking this approach which is kind of a minimalist minimalist approach we're we're we're not trying to add too much infrastructure in the flood plain we realize that some of these trails will overtop particularly the loop trail will be overtopped by flood waters we're we're taking a little bit of a queue from Hickory Ridge which is many of the crushed stone trails for the cart pad for the golf carts that Hickory Ridge put in 60 65 years ago have been flooded over many many times and they're still there so these will be at grade they will be constructed you know per the Dodson per the Dodson design in a really solid way there will be very very little you know relief for anything to catch on I think to Janet's point earlier the key will be removing material that ends up on them but the conservation department just recently acquired a skid steer with a front end loader if you will or a bucket I should say that is six feet wide and can maintain these trails and many other ADA trails and Amherst so we're trying to do it in a minimalist way we're not trying to add too much infrastructure we believe the bridges will be fine even if they're overtopped by flood waters um and that's why we didn't go and we didn't go with the Conti refuge model which was doing pressure treated lumber raised up this this area floods more than the Conti refuge area so we just wanted to avoid that because of the damage and the cost of rebuilding I hope that answers the question it does thank you Dave since you mentioned the existing trails that were for the golf carts are you eradicating all the other trails on the property or you know what's what's the vision for how really natural this will ever look that's a really great question Doug so part of what I've said twice I think is is is threading the needle here in order to get these trails the loop trail and the north south trail to be approved by the natural heritage program at the state level Aaron Jock did a masterful job of mitigating and compensating so we are retiring a number of the old cart paths that Hickory Ridge Golf Course maintained for 65 years and we are basically letting nature take its course and rewilding those trails that we don't think are either needed anymore or perhaps go in areas that are too sensitive we've had feedback from for instance the turtle biologists and they've said hey some of those cart paths that were part of the golf operation take people into areas where the turtles really like to do their thing and so we've eliminated those and that has allowed us to make it through the permitting process with the natural heritage program having said that what you see on the uh in your packet for the north south trail and the loop trail and the connection between them those are the core trails that we're proposing and those are the improved trails we didn't um we didn't overlay that with what we're calling the single track trails in other words there will be other trails on the property for instance we heard loud and clear when we acquired the property please make some really long straight nice um uh aesthetically pleasing cross-country ski trails so we heard that and the western most part of the property is very conducive to that so we have what we call a single track and and this is this is nothing more than a mode path there's no infrastructure there's no crushed stone they'll they'll likely be no immediately no benches so there are going to be other trails not a lot of them but for instance one will go all the way around the western array and give you views of the mount hoyoke range and the farmland to the west and hadley so yes there will be other trails but these will be the only ones that will be improved and we are actually retiring many linear feet hundreds of linear feet of the old car paths we're even going to retire one of the bridges over the fort river which we really don't need five bridges over the fort river and that's a very high cost of maintenance long term for the taxpayers of amours so we may even retire a second bridge over the fort river so we may have gained some trails but we're eliminating many linear feet of other trails okay board members other questions but Doug could i just share one other thing in terms of timeline timeline just to give the board a sense of timeline these two grants are really knocking on our door here we are hoping to bid this project out in january both these trail systems and have this work completed by the end of june 24 not to say the trails would all open by then in their finished form but at least to meet the grant deadlines if we have other major components obviously we would need to come back to the planning board and other boards and committees for instance lots of other ideas have been talked about at hickory ridge um an amphitheater anything to do with the clubhouse and the parking any reuse of that area would obviously come back through the planning board and as i said we will be presenting a comprehensive plan which outlines some of the options for the frontage and then um yeah i think that's all i wanted to say so these elements we think are reasonable and achievable but there's many i think a couple of years of other projects that we will propose for hickory ridge okay thank you can it so i this was this issue was raised in the development application report and um in my mind in this today which is about maintenance and so you know we have a huge trail system in amherst which i love and i know that there's not enough staff to keep trails open and cut during the growing season or maintaining um you know wood bridges i mean even just planks and i can point to many examples where i live um and my concern was you know we're building this beautiful trail system can we maintain it um do we have the staffing to do it when we're not maintaining our current trails and it's not a criticism of anybody it's just that we don't have enough staff and so um dav did bring up the idea of having a volunteer core in the neighborhood and i think you could get people from different parts of amherst to join that and i like that idea but i i do think that's a really serious issue is like we might build this beautiful pass but will they be maintained and cleared and if they are maintained and clear is that at the expense of other trails so i just i don't know how to fix that we could say maintain your trails in a good condition in our permit but i just i think that's a big issue and i don't think you can solve it without some more hiring yeah i i had kind of the same thing going through my head because of my involvement in this cycle for cpac um you know dav you guys put in a request for significant money for trail maintenance not not at this location as far as i know but uh you know i mean how how long are we going to keep building things and some other things fall apart so what are your thoughts um well first of all um we really aren't with the exception of hickory ridge we're really not expanding our trail system much at all so i do acknowledge janet's concerns and they're my concerns the town's concerns about how do we maintain what we have but a couple of things um so i think first of all the trend in the last seven to ten years has been we've really been trending toward not acquiring more land hickory ridge is certainly a signature project a very special piece of property but i have not proposed a new acquisition other than hickory ridge i think in the last four years maybe five years um but um so we're not expanding trail system except for hickory ridge we're also trying to get more creative i mentioned to janet and bruce and others out there in the field that um we do have a very active uh group of the butters who live in orchard valley who are interested in volunteering to help maintain these trails these trails are actually in some regard easier to maintain than a forested trail with root systems and and complex wetlands crossings i mean these are fairly straightforward bridges oh that might be 10 feet long so yes they eventually will be be need to be replaced but i i presume these bridges will last between 10 and 20 years and the decking is the only thing that needs to be replaced as i said i think a six foot wide crushed stone flat five percent or less trail is actually relatively easy to maintain versus say um i don't know the kc trail that spans much of the length of amherst or the robert frost trail that's you know goes up on the mount hoyoke range and ends up all the way up in wendell so those are challenging much more challenging trails to maintain the other thing i wanted to say is that we are partnering much more these days with the kestrel trust and the kestrel trust does have a very robust staffing plan and and staffing thanks in large part to christin debor so they are much more interested willing and able to help us and they're helping us on the robert frost trail and they just helped us uh do a raised boardwalk at um down off a south um down off a bay road um to toward a beaver issue down there so i think we're going to be turning to the kestrel trust more and more to help us we do have two full-time staff and i don't anticipate us getting any more staff in the field but i think it's a real it'll be a real challenge but i guess my point is we need to spend more money on maintenance and not acquire um more acreage to maintain okay uh janet i see your hand you can unmute so i didn't want to dissuade you from acquiring more trails or land um so you know and i i live near part of the kc trail and you have clipped my way down the trail and my husband has lifted limbs and one time he went down with his weed whacker because everything was getting really grassy near the wetland and ran into a neighbor who was actually doing that and so and then i know some other neighbors are also cutting things back so i wonder in a way if maybe that's a solution to the problem where you know if if the conservation if you're if your guys are coming in to do my section of the trail if you called me or my you know interested neighbor and they can say hey they're coming in we could all work together or something like that so you know there's that would be more fun than feeling bitter you know and like i'm the only person that's cutting when it's actually not true so i wonder if that kind of could could get kind of organically grow a little bit you know because you know and i've talked to other friends who live in different parts of amazon like yeah i would do that you know people have said i would do that if there's and i don't want to put another burden on staff but there might be a way of having little precinct captains and stuff like that who call around no absolutely and we've been working on trying to get that structure in place a little bit and there are some neighborhoods that actually already maintain their section of trail working with brad border week or our assistant land manager so absolutely janet i think we're open to that and we have to be more open to it in the future because we we we're not going to get it i don't think we're going to get any more personnel we still will be going to cpac and seeking grants to pay for the materials to build bridges rebuild bridges do a da improvements things like that but we're not we're not out there expanding the trail system in fact i'm i'm scratching my head saying what trail have we added in my time as director of conservation other than these i've been really kind of bully on not doing any more trails beat west over created 80 miles of trails and i know how much maintenance they take so i've not been anxious to add to the trail system myself okay uh dave uh just uh went through my head does the town have liability concerns if you have volunteers out there next to staff yes we yes we do we do we also we do ask volunteers to sign of course you know standard waivers and things of that sort but we as i said there's a number of neighborhoods that we've organized um volunteer efforts and then we've also had many many at places like puffers pond mount uh mount pollocks as well as um oh orchard valley taking care of the the pond and conservation area uh off of pond view okay all right um let's see not seeing any more hands from board members i guess i will ask the public uh this is the time if you would like to make some comments on these proposed trails uh at hipri ridge uh so far i see one hand from claire bertrand could we bring her over pam and give her a timer to keep track of her comment period welcome claire i thank you thanks for this presentation um i'm um i just have a couple of questions um i'm curious if you could speak more to what ecological restoration means um and um i'm i'm mowing so i i think i what i've heard and i would like it clarified is that this these trails that we're discussing are six feet wide fully accessible but there may be other trails that will continue to be used or so if you could talk more about other smaller walking trails so those were my two questions thanks okay okay you are muted let me see if i get those claire so um ecological restoration um let me talk a bit about that so when we first acquired the property we knew uh and uh and full well that we would need to do a comprehensive plan for the entire property given all the competing interests and and desires and all the excitement that the acquisition generated so we we set out to gather information we had a number of meetings out there we also had an engage page on the town website where we got hundreds and hundreds of different comments that uh led us to begin to gather um um zoning data uh we surveyed the entire property we also mapped all of the wetlands vernal pools floodplain um um um estimated and priority habitat for rare species we got in touch with the state and brought in their biologists they have looked at um mussels in the river they've looked for rare plants as we've talked about turtles etc etc so that has all been kind of fed into a plan um we hired a consulting company to come in and help us and we worked alongside them to create as i said a comprehensive well i shouldn't say comprehensive ecological restoration plan and what that does is it basically says um it gives us ideas about how to manage the property in the future what do we want to see in five years 10 years 20 years 50 years along the riparian corridor what do we want to see the wetlands you know this was a manicured landscape for 65 years that is not our intent moving forward we want to do a couple of things we want to control invasive species because multiflora rose and japanese knotweed and and many others will take over we also want to encourage certain um certain types of habitat to thrive on the property so much of the stream bank as an example much of the stream bank was channelized and hardened and um think of riprap you're all familiar with riprap when we basically keep the river in its channel and we harden the banks of the river so this ecological restoration plan looks at all of that and says how can we for instance add woody material to the river to diversify the ecosystem in the in the river things like that claire it also speaks to what parts of the property will be moaned to keep it in early successional habitat where we might encourage grassland birds and other pollinators to thrive so certain parts of the property will be mowed to your question about mowing certain parts of the property in the future will be mowed periodically to keep it in early successional habitat but along the river we'll encourage a full canopy to shade the river the fort river and it's and the lumbrook um smaller trails will be developed in the future and those trails as i said will simply be a mowed path um if you think about the path up to the top of mount pollocks if you've been to mount pollocks it's simply you know mowed three times a year and there's no improvement and it's grass and we keep it mowed so we keep down poison ivy and ticks and so there will be trails around the edges of the property that are in that uh that kind of trail low maintenance cross country skiing running hiking but they won't be fully ada the only fully ada trails will be the loop and the north south uh trail you see on your maps i hope that answers those questions claire are you all set answers my questions thank you all right thank you uh the next person that got their hand up was pam rooney hi pam rooney 42 cottage street again speaking as a resident of cottage street um couple questions i heard mention of the master plan and other elements such as amphitheater and the many requests that came in from engage amherst is there any opportunity to see these trails in particular as part of that master plan no one has no one has yet seen the master plan um is it imminent and is there an opportunity for the community to see what alternatives are being proposed as part of a master plan second item is access to east hamley road uh it's the north south trail looks like it comes far to the sort of to the east of all of the apartment complexes that that front east hamley road is there any opportunity to create a connection further to the south i'll just say southwest of the the trail that you're showing now it seems like folks would really have to make an effort um from the from the the heart of that apartment complex to make their way out and around in order to get onto the trail and that may be some access may be precluded by the by the solar fields but perhaps uh there are roads that could be fenced off and allow access through that area to a more direct connection and then thirdly um as a former us fish and wildlife service employee and a landscape architect i really appreciated the details that were provided to you all regarding construction of the bridges and i noticed that the use of helical piles is proposed um i am a strong advocate of helical piles because it allows construction starting on from one bank and building essentially building the bridge as you go with the piles so i was delighted to see that detail i think it's a very strong uh approach to protecting um the wetlands and minimizing impact thank you thank you fam dave you want to take those two questions sure um yeah in reverse order just acknowledging the the the helical pier you'll ilt um yes um we're very proud of that element um it is a very small wetland but we're trying to do the very best we can to protect that wetland on the western side um uh so in terms of the comprehensive plan we are we are pulling together those elements of that plan and yes i would say it is i'm not sure i'm going to use the word imminent but certainly in the next few months we will present that to the various town boards and committees um we had this opportunity to move forward with the these core elements of the trail system before that plan was ready we felt pretty confident that one we would not preclude future development ideas on the frontage by doing these trails and that um we would lose these grant opportunities if we didn't move forward so absolutely we are coming forward with a what i call a comprehensive plan for the property um the north south trail extension if i understood the question correctly is there a way to connect further to the west on in the northwest the short answer is yes um the more the more complete answer is um we are having conversations with the um owners of the apartment complexes and condos to the north those have been kind of ongoing off and on for the last year year and a half um we certainly would love to make a connection more to the north uh west um i will say that those apartment complexes and owners um their biggest concern is liability so if you build it who will come and is it just the residents of um one apartment complex or the residents of many um and as you may know if you're familiar with the GIS map of that part of town it's Mill Valley Apartments that um really has the the bulk of our northern border of our property at Hickory Ridge so so the answer is yes we are working on a trail connection to the northwest we still believe where we currently have it is the the fastest and easiest way to make a connection all the way out to um all the way out to east Adley Road and so that's kind of our first goal so in theory if you just to play this out if you live in orchard valley and you wanted to hop over west Pomeroy Lane with your family or friends or or by yourself jump on you know one of these trails you could walk safely all the way to up to east Adley Road jump on the new expanded sidewalk multi-purpose trail multi-purpose sidewalk there and walk all the way over to gulf park and back on this trail and and vice versa so that's our goal with that north south trail I do hear you Pam we would like to make a more direct connection to the west northwest and we're we're kind of working on that it will not be fully accessible there is no way for us to achieve an accessible trail because of the topography in that area all right thank you Pam thank you David uh next public comment from Karen Sanchez Epler welcome Karen if you could give us your name and your address Karen Sanchez yes Karen Sanchez Epler my husband Benigno Sanchez Epler is here 22 Cayman's Circle so butters and much people who have much loved walking in this rewilding landscape saw on the map how close the connector trail is to the solar farm and just wondering what how I guess how you're seeing this solar farm being incorporated into the conservation and recreational aspects of of Hickory Ridge and and I guess too who's responsible for that how much the solar farm people are responsible for what that border looks like how much the town taking charge of that so that that's one question who pays for the for the green barrier between the fence and the trail if there's any the other question that we have is what is the town thinking about the relationship between the garris trail on the other side of the ford river and the connector uh these are companion trails garris trail has a discontinuity problem over at the when you get to the bridge um but it would be quite an amazing loop garris trail and the and the connector and that's uh I wonder what I wonder whether there's any planning uh for for that all right thank you Dave yeah let me come back to the garris trail um that's a really great question too um I'll try to address the first question I may need a little redirect happy to take that if from the from the person who asked the question um the interface between the trail and the solar um this is quite a challenge and we've given this quite a bit of thought um you know there's certainly those people who are challenged by the fact that there will be 26 acres of solar on this beautiful property the I will start by saying as I did earlier in the in the meeting um we bought the property knowing full well that there would be 26 acres of solar um that changes the the property it changes the landscape however there are a number of positives that come from that number one um you know we signed a 20-year lease with Pure Sky for that 26 acres of solar Springfield will be the off-taker of that um green power not the town of Amherst um we frankly did not at the time we signed the deal did not have the um demand for that and I don't think we still do this would be I think about a 6.1 or 6.2 megawatt array so in part of this project we are helping Springfield to achieve their um their carbon goals so I think it's a wonderful thing because um Springfield did not have the opportunity at the time that this deal was struck number two we will also get a pilot payment a payment in lieu of taxes that will be about three times as much as Hickory Ridge was paying when it was a golf course so it will be on the order of 80 $85,000 in the first year and that will help pay for other municipal expenses firefighters police officers planners and and the list goes on in terms of how the array will interface with the trail I think it's a great opportunity for us through the interpretive science system to really talk about what that array is doing it really if you've all been next to solar arrays um they're they're quite in general benign they they are there they are relatively quiet yes there will be some battery storage on this but the battery storage will not be near that north south trail for the most part but it's an opportunity for us to interpret what that array is doing the green power that it is generating 365 days a year so we see that as as a real plus I will say when you look at the map we really had to put the trail as close to the array fencing as we could because the natural heritage program wanted us to stay out of great turtle habitat and away from the Fort River so that's what we did you might say well why why couldn't the trail be closer to the river well with the trail with trails come impacts like people dogs children um cute turtles believe it or not they go missing from natural habitats quite a bit so we don't want wood turtles and box turtles and and snapping turtles and other turtles to be you know impacted in the least possible way so that's why the trail is as close to the array um in the central array as possible but I think it's a great opportunity for people to learn about solar power we all need power and we're going to do some interpretive signage with pure sky to educate on that I will say that once the arrays are built there's very little maintenance to them pure sky will be out there once a month with a pickup truck there's really very little maintenance so there won't be a lot of trucks or activity around the arrays there'll be much many more people walking the trails I think in terms of the Garrett trail I'm really glad you asked that there's a wonderful question it is part of our comprehensive plan for that area the garris trail is off of west street right across from uh crocker farm school and it's a little bit of a trail to nowhere it's wonderful it's right along the uh fort river on the east side but there's it's a dead end trail and our hope is to one day there are a couple of old bridge abutments along the fort river and our hope is to connect it via a bridge using one of those old bridge abutments to this new trail on the west side of the fort river but again that's another day and another project and we don't have the funding for it right now but that would be the hope some somewhere down the road thank you yes and was that wasn't an anti solar power question for me it was just seeing how very close it was and wondering what you were thinking about it so thank you so much no I and by the way I did not interpret it that way in any way shape or form but we've thought about that a lot you're going to be very close to about an eight foot fence and you know people it may not be the most aesthetically pleasing but I think it's that appreciation for what those panels will be doing and they'll be trackers as well so they're going to be following the sun so that'll be kind of cool to watch out there when when they're tracking the sun and generating power for all of us all right thank you to Karen and your and your husband thank you David the next and I think the last public comment is coming from Marilyn Billings if we could bring her over Marilyn please where did she go and did we lose her there she is where okay yeah let's bring up Marilyn please give us your name and your street address thank you very much Marilyn Billings from East Hadley Road in the Brook actually I lived down in the let's see the furthest the closest probably to this project from the Brook and I've been really interested in this project all along so appreciate your comprehensive really detailed assessment today David that was really wonderful I'm interested in a couple of different things one being from the Brook area where more on the northeast part and I'm thinking that the trail that you have coming from the north is probably coming down along that that roadway that is already used by Public Works for the sewer system not sure so I wanted to ask that question and noticed that recently there was a cement barrier put up right almost outside my door that may be part of this I wasn't really sure but just um wanting to acknowledge that a lot of people come down that dirt road and come into the northeast part of the Hickory Ridge area and go out walking through there and there's a path it's not mowed that's not maintained at all that I actually went on a lot and I picked up some gum wrappers today when I was out there um just to talk about the trash a bit but I'm hoping that that's one of the areas that does get at least moaned three times a year because it gets heavy use even from the people across the way and on Columbus Street I think that's the name of it Columbia Columbus that come in there and walk their dogs and do all those kind of things so I guess the question about you know where is that the place where you're looking for the northern um piece to connect on to that connector trail uh is is a good a good question to start with and also just to say that being out there today given yes there was a lot of rain that came down but it's the most flooded I've ever seen that part of the northeastern part of the the area and I don't know if it's because of the fencing that the solar power has put up there or what the situation is but it's unusual all right so thank you thank you very much Marilyn for those comments and questions I'll do the best I can to to address them one is just on the flooding um I don't think the the solar fences have anything to do with the flooding I think this is we are living in a time in a different time yeah a different time of unpredictable weather and the weather patterns are changing and you know we just in the last week and a half got probably six plus inches of rain so yes we will see that um great questions I'm so glad you're you're on the call here and on in the public hearing we still have some work to do I referenced working with mill valley and the property owners in the brook we had some very productive conversations in 21 and 22 with the association in the brook I think there is general support for the project we do the town does have a sewer easement a sewer maintenance easement over that property and you know we have worked with the leadership at the association in the brook and I believe there's general agreement there to grant another easement an additional easement so that's the direction we would take on the northeastern portion of of the brooks property connecting us all to uh connecting the trail system to east abbey road um I don't I don't know anything about the cement barrier I will look into that it has nothing to do with this project but I'm now you got me curious so I will take a look in there and see what that's all about it might be something the DPW put in there but um anyway so I appreciate all your comments it is it is an existing trail already but it is unimproved at this point it's simply a path through the through the the vegetation so we would we would be it would be six feet wide uh five percent or less grade and have benches along the way and interpretive signage in various locations so thank you thank you all right thank you maryland all right so that was our last public comment hand um I see the time is 802 uh janet I see your hand up why don't you make uh your comment or ask your question and then we'll go to a break well you know I I have a question based on what miss billing said you know I've seen hickory ridge much much more flooded than it was today um at least on the um primary section and I was wondering about the solar array did they have their stormwater system gone in um and I was wondering if the excess water was if they haven't put that in yet is that because they've cut the trees down and the land is not holding the water the way it normally did so has that stormwater management been installed into that array because I think we shouldn't be seeing that flooding or wondering why if it's just um so first of all um really virtually not yes um you know some of the trees have been cut in the solar array locations um but I am completely confident that has nothing to do with the the level of the fort river in this current flood uh period we're in any number of things you know the Connecticut river is at you know record highs for this time of year the the the fort river actually surcharges I don't know if you're familiar with surcharging but essentially the fort river is backed up all the way through Adley into Amherst when the Connecticut river rises so water can't get into the Connecticut river it's like being in a traffic jam at a at a sporting event or even a even a roundabout with lots of traffic think about the Connecticut river as the roundabout rivers coming into tributaries of the Connecticut can't get in it slows all the water down and then it backs it up so I'm quite confident that the the pure skies project has nothing to do with the water levels in the fort at this point the other thing is that we have a number of beaver dams in the fort river and those beaver dams just naturally are holding back a whole boatload of water now when this was a golf course I will say often the Hickory Ridge folks would breach those dams and discourage I would use in quotes discourage beavers from spending a lot of time on the golf course we have not done that much of that so there may be beaver dams there may be multiple beaver dams in this stretch that are holding back water the other thing is that Maryland has a very unique perspective because she lives northeast of the property we can't see that section from the road the really the only section you can see from the road is really down near the loop or down near the clubhouse so I think she has a very unique perspective on you know seeing that flooding up there in the north the northeast corner but it's simply we got a ton of rain and the water can't move quickly into the Connecticut river but I'm confident it has nothing to do with what your sky has done very little work out there frankly because of delays in construction schedules so I'm sorry so just to clarify the stormwater management system is in there or not yet it is not because the yeah it is not because they they haven't done any construction the only the only work they've done is to come in and put crush gravel on the road and cut down the trees that were allowed in the permit and then they've done a little work on the bridges and a couple of stream crossings but other than that no and all the native vegetation except for the trees is all still there the entire both array areas are completely vegetated other than the trees all the other vegetation hasn't been touched all right uh Dave if I could uh ask you one quick question how does pure sky access the solar array are they using the black existing shared access road in sort of the southeast corner maybe if Nate or Pam could put that image back up people would want to see this because I think it is important let's see I guess it's the route that has the number five on it is what I was wondering about correct so the only access and the central access for the construction of the arrays and the maintenance of the arrays will be and I'm sure somebody's cursor is going to find west pomeroy lane there in the lower right yes lower right keep right there you went by it right keep going right there so pure sky has improved that road they will improve that bridge number five with the number five will be improved for both the construction vehicles and maintenance vehicles and then we will use that bridge as a pedestrian bridge for the trail and that will be the access to the arrays okay great thank you uh Nate I see your hand sure thanks I was just going to say kudos to Pam she was the one who was following Dave during the presentation it wasn't me so um if you saw funny smiles it was because uh Pam was doing doing the driving thank you Pam I thought it was Nate but thank you that's okay you beat me to it and she was a good job so I'll give Nate all the credit for my error that's all right thank you all okay so the time now is 8 0 8 and I I'm going to propose we take a five minute break and come back at 8 13 and um we'll continue the conversation hopefully go through findings and conditions and talk about what uh how we want to proceed so turn off your camera mute yourself and when you return at least turn on your camera so we know you're back thank you yeah I just wanted to let you know that I think I accidentally either left the meeting or got booted but I am back now it's Johanna oh do you know when you uh left um it was during the break and I joined at 8 14 oh okay so we haven't we haven't began again yet so you're you're perfect but thank you for letting me know I hope I didn't give you the boot that was not my intention Pam I'm also hi Karen yeah I'm my um internet is pretty iffy here I'm in Hawaii okay so I've been listening but the picture was gone for a while okay all gone for a while and now it's back hopefully now you're back okay sound good we were admiring you because we thought you were in Europe so I was like wow she's up really late oh it's actually it's much earlier I'm wide awake good okay better than the rest of us yeah so I have 8 16 and hopefully everybody's hiding behind their dark screen at the moment there's Fred nope that's just to see I'm here but I'm eating a cookie and I don't think people want to watch me eat a cookie okay Fred are you back seems like we lost most of our public attendees although there's still three remaining hello Fred are we allowed to proceed without Fred having evidence that he's back or should we how long should we give him I think you can proceed without him and just catch him up when he arrives yeah all right okay so I guess I have 8 17 and do board members have additional questions for Dave and his team actually it looks like Nate's still here but we lost Jennifer oh I'm not seeing any hands so at this point Chris would it make sense for us to go to your development application report or to the possible the conditions and findings we can go to the development application report I don't think there are many things that are left unresolved but I will say that one of the things I didn't catch on my first go round was that that structures within the FPC need special permits from the zoning board of appeals so that was something I caught today spoke to Rob Mora about that and sent you all an email about that and some and an additional revision to conditions yes but if you wanted to go through the development application report we could start on page two okay Pam why don't you scroll up note that I had only known about one shade structure but there are actually two strict shade structures in phase two so in phase one so I wanted to mention that and same is true in the general section down at the bottom of that page that there are two shade structures other than that I don't think I made any changes oh except for the very last page and also there's a reference to one shade structure but I would suggest that should be changed to two but there other than that there weren't too many issues the on page three we talked about a landscape plan and they really didn't submit a landscape plan there will be new landscaping in the form of the plants needed to stabilize the slopes or restore wetland areas and we asked a question about maintenance and I think Janet already asked that question yeah and we received an answer about that there's no lighting they are proposing signs three different types of signs a typical sign post sign a kiosk sign and a proposed parking area sign so and we we did have questions about that which arose later we realized that some of those signs were oversized and that they were taller than is allowed in the zoning district in which they're located so when we get to the conditions we can talk about there were waivers and conditions listed on that sheet that I sent you and we can talk about that just as a note Fred has arrived thank you okay okay keep going Chris or maybe you were finished I don't know okay parking and bicycle racks there are bicycle racks proposed the DRB proposed suggested that you might want to consider a different type of bicycle rack but I don't think the applicant has proposed anything different so maybe you want to live with the bicycle racks that were proposed by the applicant well we could we could ask Dave what did you guys think about using a different type of bicycle rack as opposed to the loops Chris yeah yeah we're we're I think we're very open to that I think the planning staff had talked about that I think the loops can be frankly kind of limiting and the likelihood that you know it's one thing to put in loops at a kind of distant parking lot on Bay Road for a conservation trail but I think the the likelihood that we're going to get you know lots of people interested in coming here walking biking hiking running driving is greater so I think more more bike racks is better so I think the loops anything we can do that is better than the loops would be good and we're open to that you know I guess my recollection is that they were recommending a sort of larger consolidated structure that accommodated a whole bunch of bikes as one unit as opposed to multiple individual loops I think they thought it might be aesthetically better I think it's likely to be more compact also yes so you could make a condition about asking them asking the applicant to come back with a different bike loop arrangement yeah could we ask them to come back with a different sign later so we can move this along a different sign but you said the signs were non-conflict like there's some problem with the signs yeah I think we should talk about that when we get to the waivers and then we can be more definitive about what's going on with the signs let's see the number of parking spaces I think 27 is shown on the plan 20 was listed in the management plan so I think that the planning board should consider that 27 is the actual number and I don't think you have to have a condition about that unless you want to that was just a question that I had that was about 27 what parking spaces parking spaces yeah and the number of parking spaces is based on this rather vague requirement you know for all other permitted uses and they list a bunch of different uses that you that the applicant should provide adequate parking spaces to accommodate um occupants employees members customers clients so we have to just kind of take a best guess at how many people would be here at any particular time and the estimate is you know that there are going to be 27 people coming here and then I think there are an additional three um three three ADA spaces so it's all really 30 spaces all together well isn't that a sort of function of the fact that the existing parking lot has you know more than more spaces than that and that we're really just leaving and existing you know those existing spaces so that and the rest of the lot is being taken offline yep okay I see Bruce and Johanna Bruce um I've been to the moody the county trail in Hadley a few times and my recollection is that there are actually fewer and possibly far fewer than 27 parking spaces down there and I typically haven't been there when it's been full but maybe I just haven't gone at the right time so I suppose we could be guided by that and and so in in so far as we are 27 would seem to be a good number if Conte is not a good guide well then someone will say so and secondly the as you say the we're taking they're taking proposing a certain section of an existing parking area will be upgraded patched and so forth I mean minimally upgraded as I understood it from the conversation today and my my my guess is on my my figuring is that if this turns out to be significantly insufficient we will find out and we would have the trouble or the opportunity to redress that in considering the development of the the the the developable past the the fully developable developable part of the partial yeah well we I mean we also I guess have the option of simply saying that a smaller number of spaces are required and you know if there if it turns out it is really not enough demand for 27 spaces and if at some point the town decides to you know repave the lot and take out half of the spaces then they'd have that flexibility so I guess we could go that way to Johanna I think there are only two ADA spaces but maybe I'm remembering wrong yeah but I think there are only two now um Dave is nodding his head yes I guess in agreement and then yeah I think I am I'd be curious to hear Dave's thoughts on reducing the kind of required number of parking spaces 27 does seem generous I mean I feel like I often go to amethyst brook at peak times and there might you know there's parking there for maybe 15 cars so this would almost be double that I might my math might be wrong maybe Dave knows some of the numbers for what a what is the parking capacity at other conservation areas and are they anticipating more traffic here and you know Dave these are all great questions so I think I mean when when the trails are built out I do anticipate these being very popular so kind of taking in you know my my similar recollection to kanthi and also Johanna's reference to um sweet alice parking off a bay road I believe that is 15 plus one or two ADA designated spaces at the sweet alice so I think 25 to 27 is is a good place to start to duck's comment I mean we're really controlling the sides of this parking at least for the short term with jersey barriers so you know I I would not want to move those willy nilly but and I presume if we increase the parking there we would have to come back to the planning board so I think 27 you know is a good number to start with I think it's going to be a very popular place and also west pommaroy lane is not a place to park by the side of the road so you know we don't want to have overflow parking up on west pommaroy lane it is just really a dangerous narrow high speed connector so I guess I'm fine with that number all right um let's see Nate I'm going to call on you sure yeah while the conversation was happening I looked at uh some aerial photographs of kanthi and so you know originally it was about 15 spaces there and then in recent years they added I think there's about 35 now you know they have a pavilion um near overlooked near the parking but they extended the parking it was grass and so I think that they responded to the um to the popularity by you know increasing the gravel parking and so you know I think the number of spaces here Dave's right that this will be popular so I think this is a good number to start with and we can see how it's how it's used and then see what other future uses are proposed for the site but I think it would be I mean the the parking lot's already in existence so it seems strange to recommend fewer or to condition it with fewer I mean what we're what we're doing is you know trying to take you know take the existing parking lot and Dave said it gets some separation from the clubhouse but then you know have enough parking spaces to accommodate the use and so I don't I don't I wouldn't recommend trying to condition it with a lower number yeah I guess all I was doing was trying to say a lower minimum and giving you guys flexibility where you can have you know use more spaces or create more spaces without having to come back and tell us you know we need to we need five more spaces that just seems ridiculous okay yeah I understood I misunderstood that Doug I I see I understand that now right so the minimum you can always do yeah yeah I mean you know we don't seem to have any penalty for having more spaces in this town uh but you know do we have to have a specific number now or could we just say you know you need to have at least 15 and and uh whatever you know if the demand warrants you know you should add more I like that flexibility and and we certainly don't want to clog up the planning board's agenda with future agendas with coming back to ask for seven eight more spaces so yeah that that was my thought that I will I guess we'll see if anybody wants to go that direction um Janet I do see your hand but I'm going to call on Chris first I see hers too yeah I just know that I'm looking at the plan that was prepared as part of this application for the parking lot and it does show accessible parking spaces three so I think there was a question about whether there are two or three Nate might be able to bring up that plan it was the uh proposed parking layout plan or Pam or Pam I think there's the existing that we were talking about yeah there's existing two and I think we proposed three okay but existing currently right now too okay all right um Janet so I was I was sort of thinking about graph park which gets a lot of heavy use and it seems to me kind of roughly the same size and so I thought this was a 30 was a good number but you know I don't see any reason to make it smaller because if he has a lot of use then it's there and I think we don't really know what the other side's being used for and so it might be a situation where the parking lots between the recreational area and whatever that building turns into might be shared parking so I think we're in a great situation where you can just move the jersey barriers and you know whatever but you know that other use is going to come back to us and we can read look at it but it seems to me like you know graph park is very heavily used at certain times it seems to me roughly the same amount of space and you know I think I think Dave's right that people are going to come to this park it's very close to a lot of population areas people will drive there because they don't really want to there's no real sidewalky way to get to it from the village center or other parts of town so I think you know let's just see how this sits and you know people are we're going to come back they're going to come back with the covered seating areas and you know I think let's just not make it super complicated just go with this number all right jenna uh friend uh yeah I do both I would say uh no fewer than 27 all right karen um I you know no fewer than 20 that's saying you have to have 27 let's just leave it flexible this is everybody is guessing what's happening and you don't want a lot of access parking if you don't have that you don't want to give them requirements that we know nothing about so it gives them the leeway to do whatever they want if we say no fewer than whatever 15 or whatever all right thanks karen all right um you want me to keep talking about the development application report yeah I think we ought to finish that and go on keep going yeah so the erosion control seems adequate because the conservation commission approved it the management plan talks about the management and it hits all the usual things we did have the issue about maintenance and we've already talked about that traffic impact statement wasn't really needed because there's not going to be that much traffic added to was pomegranate lane as a result of this project here drainage was reviewed by the conservation commission and they agreed with what was being proposed we haven't heard from the fire department or the town engineer but i'm not sure that that's very important at this time the fire department probably wouldn't have a lot to say about this project and the town engineer has looked at it as part of the conservation commission review so I think it's fine if you choose to approve this without hearing from either of them um we already talked about some of the design review board's comments um one of their comments actually had to do with extending the side um there are side kind of I don't even know how to describe them to their their curves on the bridge yeah they're like um fence they're sort of like fences along the bridge and um the design review board thought it would be nice if those didn't just end at a 90 degree angle but if somehow they ended at a 45 degree angle um so that was something that they talked about but then they really didn't actually make that statement in their recommendations they just said that they wanted those bridges to be um and and the trails to be ADA accessible and then the Disability Access Advisory Committee was mostly concerned about how do you get here from elsewhere rather than you know they didn't really have too many comments if any about the project itself they were more concerned with the fact that there really wasn't public transportation to get here and that's not something that the planning board can do anything about um but Dave did suggest that at some point in the future it could be possible that um perhaps the senior center van or something like that could be able to bring people here or one of the PVTA vehicles and then site furnishings um we were suggesting that when a shade structure is decided upon that it be brought back for your review and approval if you so choose and you could say the same thing for the bench style it depends on how much you want to be involved with that and is that common superseded at all by the need for the special permit now from the ZBA? Well the special permit um is it depends I mean if the if the planning board um wanted to see the structure I don't know if the ZBA is really that concerned about what the design of the of the structure is as they are about the placement of the structure in the FPC so I suppose you could allow the ZBA to choose the structure style or you could make um you could make that your um in your bailiwick and then the ZBA would just be talking about the fact that there is a structure there so it's really up to you how how you want to handle that. Okay so uh I guess when we get to the conditions we can talk about that some more. Yep do you want to go to the conditions? I think so yeah does anybody object to moving on to the conditions and findings? Don't see any objections? Pam do you think you could bring up the draft that Chris sent out this afternoon the revised conditions and there we go yep that's it yeah so it turned out that there were um more waivers than we actually um highlighted in the beginning um but we did know about some of these there was a waiver that they asked for from the lighting plan because they're not providing any lighting um a waiver from the traffic impact statement um and then a sign waiver for signs that are over 12 feet in area now some of these signs are three by four um and there are more than one of them three by four is obviously 12 feet but in some places there are you know more multiple of these signs that are over 12 feet so that's why we suggest that you could grant this waiver and then um signs in the RO zoning district are limited to four feet high and some of these signs are indeed higher than four feet high um if you wanted to you could look at the um detail sheet I don't have those exact images in my head but anyway those are two two waivers of sign requirements and then um there's also a requirement that there be not more than one or two signs exceeding 12 square feet in the FPC zoning district I don't really know what the point of that was but um that's another waiver that you could choose to grant um so I do want to talk about sign waivers now and then go on to parking waivers yeah Bruce um it seems to me that signs of these signs are generated by the specific function here which is perhaps an odd a non-normal thing for an RO district I can see from having been to many of these places but three by four signs uh give context maps and things like that clearly that seems to be a reasonable uh or a certainly non-excessive area so I'd certainly uh advocate for that waiver and then as you go down to the next one if you have a sign that's 12 feet you don't we don't really have to look at the drawings I don't think because you can say even if that 12 foot square foot sign was sideways with a three foot vertical and four foot horizontal if we had five four feet limit then the bottom of the sign would be a foot above ground which would be good for dogs but hopeless for humans so clearly we need to endorse that waiver as well so I would argue uh that it's almost it's it's reasonable for granting the sign first sign waiver and it's a no-brainer I suppose you could say therefore to grant the second I'm not sure about third but it seems again that this is probably a function of the the the the information wayfinding uh interpretation and aspirations for information exchange and education and so I I would feel thoroughly comfortable then granting that waiver as well for that reason all right thank you Bruce I can say that I share Bruce's sentiments about these three anybody else on the board want to weigh in okay okay let me go to the parking waivers there's a park request for a waiver from section 7.105 which is lighting of parking lots and then a waiver from section 7.112 for screening of parking lots and in this case it seems like the parking lot is kind of screened already by there's a big kind of a berm along the road that screens the parking lot and there's also a lot of trees so even though it's not immediately screened right around where the parking lot is um it is in in fact screened because of that mound and trees along the road well Chris does the does the by-law require an actual screen that is a manufactured device or no we simply say in the findings that we think 7.112 is met because of the configuration of the topography and the vegetation I suppose you could say that that's fine with me that seems more defensible than just creating a waiver I like the idea I like Doug's idea of advocating why it's okay rather than basically taking a pass okay so no waiver but there is a reason why it is actually screened sure um and then a waiver from section 7.106 which has to do with the width of a two-way driveway um it's supposed to be 18 feet wide when I measured it on the GIS plan the driveway that comes into the parking lot it appeared to be more like 12 or 13 feet wide but you can imagine that even though it is both an entrance and an exit there probably aren't going to be lots and lots of cars coming out in and out you know at the same time so a car could wait for another car to pass so well this is the kind of this is a this is a particular um requirement that I suspect the fire department is always interested in because there are certain fire code requirements for uh I think it's as much as 20 feet of access for fire trucks to at least respond to you know events at buildings and now maybe that doesn't apply in this situation because there's no building to be protected or you know responded to it does have to do with the um protection of buildings and the and the driveway that is close to the clubhouse is much wider it's like you know probably 30 feet wide so you could say that the driveway that's associated with the clubhouse is adequate and the driveway that is associated with this parking lot for the trails doesn't really need to be 20 feet wide to accommodate fire trucks in my Chris I see Dave's hand Dave you have a thought about this yes I was just gonna kind of emphasize what Chris was saying which is we're going to provide fire access David Froze yeah yeah let's give him a couple seconds gotta love zoom why don't I go ahead and call on Janet she's the other hand at the moment I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with this kind of deliberation or conversation you know it seems to me you know I'm looking through these sections um you know it's like it's possible that we could waive the screening requirement because of this kind of you know if it's three feet of a berm that that meets our zoning requirement it might be nice to have some hedges put there so you just green the parking lot I don't know what we don't have a landscape plan but we're you know we're waiving that now we're waiving you know like if there's a car in the parking lot and fire the fire truck would want to come in and be able to get out or whatever so I'm not comfortable waiving requirements just because I don't know why we're you know these are requirements I've just seen and we haven't heard from the fire department this might be a big problem with them we don't know um you know in fact they are burning the building next door they practice on it you know um and the jersey barriers would you know so I just I just don't know what we're just sort of it looks like we're just hustling through the requirements of the by-law to get to waive it for any reason I just I just feel like I'm not quite sure how we got here okay all right thank you Janet uh Dave I see you're back you're still muted at the moment looks like Dave's on his phone and now does anybody know how to tell what what Dave should do to unmute on his phone there's star nine star nine I think so well that's not doing it oh Nate do you uh one thing I was going to mention is that the access there's two entry ways and the other drive that goes directly to the clubhouse will still be there so you know if there is um emergency access needed to get to the structure or into the site there is another way so there is you know the what will be the parking lot access and then the you know what is going to be town of Amherst kind of restricted access okay um Janet is your hand still a legacy okay Bruce um I I don't share Janet's concern that we are rushing through this I think this is what we do and I don't think that we should be too concerned about adding costs to the project because I think that we've got it do I understand correctly that the 13 foot wide trajectory is already there and that we would be we're considering saying that that is acceptable so I don't think it's entirely arbitrary I think it's a question of whether we want to stay applicant to indulge in further work that would be basically remain I mean that we'd have to build an 18 foot driveway when we've already got a 13 foot driveway there so I don't think that's a good way to spend money just to get an extra 18 feet because we might need it I think under the circumstances we should accept that 13 feet is reasonable and it takes a wave and do that I would argue that we should do so all right thank you Bruce Karen I I totally agree with Bruce I don't think we're rushing through it I think we know this area and it just makes sense to not spend a lot of time changing this I think it's totally adequate all right thanks Karen Janet so you know I could see not hearing from the town engineer because basically this place is covered pathways they're being removed we're putting in pretty much pathways on pathways I don't think it's going to affect the storm water or the movement of water across the site I think actually will improve it you know I have no idea what the fire department wants and this is like the second thing we're saying oh we read it we don't you know it's like I've you know so we don't know if this is adequate for a fire truck but we feel like maybe it's okay because it's there I just don't get it you know I we you know I'm okay okay we hear you I've been on this board for five years and we hear reports and we make adjustments and we don't hear reports and we just accept whatever is being put to us I just don't get it and I want to vote for this project I think it's an excellent project I'd like to have our ducks in order okay Chris I just wanted to say that we're very diligent about sending our transmittals to the town engineer and the fire department and it's just a happenstance that they seem to be so busy recently that they have trouble responding and so we have to make a judgment call about whether it's necessary to hear from them for a particular project or not and in this case I think the town engineer's work was involved with the conservation commission so I believe that you know that is adequate and then I really felt that the fire department's work would be more concerned with whether the building had a problem or not I didn't imagine that there would be a problem in the driveway so you know I don't know what to say about this but my recommendation would be to go along with it and say you know the 13-foot driveway is okay for this particular situation okay thanks Chris Bruce I was going to say something more or less along the lines of Chris but I'll phrase it differently do I correctly understand that these these matters are forwarded to the fire brigade for their comments and I think Chris said yes that they are and then I guess I could say do I correctly understand that the fire department would choose to respond to something that was important and might put a lower priority on something that was less important and I'm do I therefore correctly understand that this this means that this is not so important to the fire brigade and what Nate said would make me understand that why should it be because the only possible problem that they might have there is a car on fire and it said you can get to the parking lot much faster and much better by coming in the other side of the jersey barrier and I don't think the jersey barrier is going to be a problem for a fire truck okay all right thanks Bruce Janet do you have anything new to say I do I mean we have the assistant town manager here and I think you know this is super frustrating to me we did this on a Jones library building with the fire department and the engineer and the strong house and so it's like we need to we need the we need to get response from the town departments I totally respect the work I understand they're busy I also understand Chris can't make them respond but you know you know let's let's we need to hear this we need this information regularly and not you know guessing that they didn't respond because it wasn't important or because they're busy I just we need we need we need something here that's not happening all right so I was jumping Dave Texan said he is having issues connecting I don't know if it'd be worth just having Dave if you can hear us just if you leave the meeting and try to come back I don't know if that would help but we can come back to this point if we'd want just to see I don't know if yeah well I mean I I think the I mean I think Janet's based on the comments we've gotten Janet's view is in the minority at the moment unless you know we haven't heard from everybody but Chris I will say that you skipped over waiver number seven we went right to number eight oh I'm sorry so we're number seven let's talk about that for a minute and see if Dave can fix this problem that's an existing condition the first 50 feet of the driveway I think we're first 30 feet is supposed to be less than five percent in this case we think it might be over five percent we're not sure we didn't do a calculation on that but if in case in the case that it is over five percent you could grant a waiver for that so this is a conditional waiver since we don't have a survey of the property and and know what's really the case great that's right Nate might be able to figure it out on the fly this just came to my attention this afternoon when I was talking to the building commissioner uh all right Janet is your hand up to talk about number seven okay no all right um well why don't you why number nine Chris was about landscaped islands yes if you have a parking lot that's over 25 spots then you're supposed to have landscaped islands that are four feet wide and with raised curves throughout the parking area and we usually say that they should be every 10 spaces but in this case that didn't really seem to be necessary um those are usually in places where you want a fairly manicured look to the situation and in this case it's not really a manicured look and it's kind of a I might even call it a temporary situation I don't think I mean I projecting into the future is hard to do but I think you know when this site gets developed as a whole parking lot is not going to look the way it is does right now so it'll probably be improved so putting landscape islands and with curbs that are who's going to maintain the landscape for one thing but putting those in at this time I don't feel is really necessary so in cumulative I mean you know are we being asked to hold the town to a lower standard than any private applicant would be held to here Chris well um that's a good question I think we're we're mindful of how much money the town has available to do this project they have money from grant sources and when we start adding you know making the parking lot look like a manicured parking lot and making the driveway 18 feet wide and redoing the slope of the entry drive to be less than five percent you know you're starting to add a lot of money to this project and I don't think this project has that kind of money Nate is more familiar with the budget than I am um but that would be my my comment well I mean you know I mean I think outside parties could could have could view us as sort of being asked to you know wave a whole bunch of things that you know a private ad applicant would read the regs and show up hey you know I I'm here to show you that I've met the regulations so maybe that's not a reasonable view but I think it could be Bruce and then Fred it's a good question Nick you asked Doug and I common sense suggests to me that that as this has been explained that this is part of the five-acre developable portion of the land and that therefore has a different value my understanding is that this a new development they're putting their money where it makes sense which is in the trails and they're upgrading or utilizing the existing parking area at a reasonable level and I agree with Chris that spending too much on this when it may be reconfigured when the when the second when the subsequent phase of what actually happens you know a really thoughtful use about how this portion this developable portion of the site is used I think this makes absolute sense so so yes it may be that we are holding somebody to a lower standard than normal I'm not sure if that's true or not I don't know but it may be that it is true but I think there's a very powerful logic for doing so and I definitely think in the public interest well fair safety and those three things that we are all about here but putting the resources into the trail system and the conservation and restoration of the land is where we in good conscience should be putting and I think it would be I would I would feel much more vulnerable to accusations that we are diverting town public funds to do minimal and pecuniary augmentation of driveways and parking with landscape islands I think I would feel very vulnerable to public vitriol for making that kind of a decision than creating a kind of precedent about slightly diminishing the standards under these particular circumstances so I'm comfortable with this set of act this set of waivers based on what I just said okay thank you Bruce so I see several hands from board members but Dave you are back and I presume you know how to unmute now do you want to make any sort of comment about where we're at sure Doug can you hear me now yes apologies yeah my laptop something happened there so I'm on my phone yeah I'll be brief I guess I've missed some of this conversation trying to trying to reconnect but I guess what the point I wanted to make was I think following up on something Bruce said is that if you look at this we're looking at this this project as a multi-phase multi-year effort to to develop the Hickory Ridge property to meet some of the goals of the town short term the low-hanging fruit really are the trails so we've proposed the improvements that we feel are safe are provide accessibility and put money into resources you know within the the property that gets people out in this this naturally beautiful place when the town decides to redevelop or develop the available five five and a half acres into what it it wants the highest and best use I think obviously we would come back to the planning board and various other boards and committees to have that be reviewed and we would expect a much higher standard I think Janet referred to shared parking I fully anticipate that say for instance if it's decided to put a South Amherst fire station on the the site where the clubhouse is now or approximately there that why would we repay you know you know two and a half acres of land when we could share parking with you know the open space parking the trail parking and overflow parking say for staff of the of the new fire station so we fully expect to come back to you and meet those higher standards but right now we feel as though we presented a project that that and and we had to consider asking for the waivers that that Chris is outlined so that's I think where we are okay thank you David let's see so in order I see Bruce and then Fred and then Jesse and I suspect Bruce is a legacy is that true yeah okay so Fred why don't you go ahead thank you Mr Chairman um yeah I um first of all I think I'm 100% in favor of the 7.111 waiver from the landscaped islands and all of that I don't have a problem with that I think I may have a bit of a problem with 7.102 and 7.106 because the way I see it to some extent there's a public safety issue in terms of being able to navigate the end of a driveway and uh and the width of a driveway that may accumulate some two-way traffic so I guess my attitude is a little more nuanced I I'm I'm totally in favor of the waiver on the interior islands and so on but and I'm not sure that uh like the the uh drive the uh slope of the entry drive I don't think it's a it's it's much different than 5% I would think with heavy equipment that should be a a comparatively uh inexpensive fix if it's if it's even off at all uh and I think it could be widened a little bit again in uh not much time with some heavy equipment that the town owns um so I would I would I think we ought to look at the seven and eight maybe differently than the way we look at uh number nine okay thank you Fred Jesse yeah basically I was gonna agree with what Fred just said now that David's back did you hear our questions about the width and from a safety standpoint do you have any contact with engineers or fire about that yet we have we have not heard back from the fire department or the town engineer on that um no we we have not um I I will yeah then I'll just echo I feel like those are important ones before we waive it to just feel confident that there's not a safety issue yeah all right thank you Jesse Janet so I think I am gonna repeat myself because I think Dave missed it I just I feel like this is our second application where we haven't heard back the planning board hasn't heard back from departments and I'm thinking oh Dave's like the assistant town manager and so you know it's it's like I don't want to waive something because it might need waving but no one's measured something or we haven't heard back from the fire department I have lots of firemen in my in my family and I think you know if we're not hearing back from the departments we can't make decisions and if the town wants us to make a decision quickly which I completely support we need to hear back and so you know I'm making a plea I don't know if on behalf of the board that we need to hear from town staff um we can't just waive the bylaw because we haven't heard anything or assume that there's no problem because we haven't heard anything so I you know and in a situation like this you want to permit from us we want to give it to you and we don't have enough information and if we're just going to wave and wave and wave without you know it's just it's just such a bad precedent to me and I'm super frustrated I don't know kind of why I'm here at some point all right thanks Janet Chris um I was just going to suggest that you could continue this public hearing to a date certain in the future and we can try to talk to the fire department about at least um number eight here with regard to the width of the driveway and um I'm not sure that number seven relates to the fire department but if it does I can ask them about that question as well I think I think seven is more related to the town engineer myself it's a sort of roadway and traffic which I assume is the town engineer's purview I don't know if there's somebody else so ask the town engineer about number seven and ask the fire department about number eight that's what I would think I see Dave sands Dave do you have other thoughts uh no I just wanted to echo what Chris said you know we're happy to take these questions back and and if the board would be willing to continue this public hearing we would be happy to come back to a date certain you know that works in your schedule and have these questions addressed okay great well that seems to be where we're headed uh Chris do you want to I mean you want to go through the conditions yeah I think we ought to talk about as much as we can tonight and whatever whenever we come back at a date certain we can have as short a conversation as possible okay um so the first two conditions are pretty standard project shall be built according to plans approved by the planning board on whatever date you approve them on and the project I still see Dave's hand and I don't know if it's a legacy so okay it's gone go ahead okay so that's um according to the plans approved on x date and then the project shall be managed according to the management plan approved by the planning board on x date so those are kind of standard things that you usually apply um then the hours of operation shall be from dawn to dusk that's pretty standard for this type of facility that the town owns so I think that's a reasonable condition the fourth one is changes to the project or substantial changes to any approved site plan shall be submitted to the planning board for review and approval prior to the work taking place the purpose of the submittal is for the planning board to approve the change and determine that the changes are de minimis or significant enough to require modification of the site plan review approval and that's another one that's pretty standard um the fifth number five proposed shade structure and sign designs shall be submitted to the planning board for review and approval after review by the design review board and prior to installation that's another thing that is that you often put in with regard to those types of structures and and signs and then um the sixth one relates to this issue that we just discovered I think it was either today or yesterday all time is melding into one day to me but um in any event it occurred to us because of another project that we're working on that structures in the fpc need approval from the zoning board of appeals and I talked to the building commissioner and he agreed that the shade structure the bridges and the boardwalks are all considered structures at least with regard to the building code but we don't have a we don't have a definition of structure in our zoning bylaw unfortunately so um we suggest that you approve the site plan review and then um make a condition that uh the applicant has to go to the zoning board of appeals to get the special permit for those structures in the fpc um so those were all the conditions that I came up with were there others that we decided along the way here I don't remember well um let me ask you about number six um why do we need to put in a condition that that basically says follow the zoning the zoning bylaw you don't need to it's just if people need reassurance that this is actually going to occur okay um janet um so on number five you know if the zba is going to look at the location of the shade structure um and that's in their purview I'm sort of happy to defer to them how it looks I don't think you know they do you know they just seem like we have to approve the look and they approve the location that seems kind of repetitive and can we just seed that to them just to handle shade structures so you don't have to be showing us pictures and then them locations and things like that yeah I mean we certainly could I think traditionally the planning board has more architectural and landscape expertise and the zoning board has more to do with what kinds of things are appropriate in certain zones so bruce no firstly I agree with the you dug I I think I will I agree with what I think you agree with which is that number six is unnecessary as far as the number five is concerned and my understanding from the conversation today at the site is that I think it might have been during that was that these shade structures haven't yet been designed maybe they have I can't remember because I'm not looking at the drawing set right now I think I clearly remember that the budget is not in place to build these right now so it's possible that they haven't been finally designed so that being the case if that is the case then it would be therefore that the zoning board would not be in a position to do a good review of the design if they haven't been designed so that being the if that is the case then I would suggest that we maintain that we retain this number five okay maybe the question is is my supposition correct are the is the shade structure designed fully evident in the in the in the documentation because if it is then I would say yes that's probably could we could defer to the zoning board although I'd prefer for them to come back but if it's not designed they can't they have not been designed we've given you um three ideas about what they might look like but they haven't been designed yeah so it sounds like you would prefer to keep number five and eliminate number six is that right yeah I I think so I guess I'm going to ask a question kind of about the context for this whole site plan review um you know when I look at the Dodson and Flinker drawings there's nothing in here about the parking area nope the the parking layout seems to be a separate product of perhaps town staff could we approve the work that Dodson and Flinker is showing and and not act on the town parking lot and simply say the context for this zoning for this site plan review is the work that Dodson and Flinker is doing it's a good question I like that because could we ask him to come back on that I mean I mean I guess you you you the town wants you guys the town wants to put some jersey barriers on the parking lot and I know when we were looking at that pot production facility down in down on hall drive you know we we made that guy come back and I think we ended up saying that the you know we that the most of those concrete barriers he had on that property were de minimis and we didn't even really require a new site plan review I mean I know we talked about the barriers he had out at the street so you know you don't really want to do anything to the parking lot right now except have Guilford dropped some jersey barriers there should we just not to not go there Nate what do you think could I suggest that we just approve you know what we can approve and just say come back to us on the parking lot and things like that can we do a partial you can I think I would yeah I would I think continuing the hearing if you need more information to approve the parking lot essentially the site plan is approving any you know any improvements to the to the property even even the smaller changes to the parking so you know we are essentially demarcating a new parking area there's a new new layout in terms of handicap parking and then access with the trail and so you know I'd rather have that be part of the approval the Dotson plan when the town contacted with Dotson it really was for the trails right so that's really what we we were hoping to understand while that was happening it came to light that the parking lot needs improvements you know in terms of resurfacing accessibility improvements to get to the trails and that wasn't originally part of their scope or the budget and so I mean I think I agree that while this is happening we're also looking at as Dave mentioned a comprehensive plan for the site so you know the parking lot may you know maybe temporary that could be a few years right but the idea would be to come up with what is a future use for the that that area that isn't in the floodplain whether it you know remains the way it is for now is there as Dave mentioned a few other possible municipal uses the housing trust is eager to look at that area and so you know we had we had never envisioned coming up with a formal parking design thinking that at some point would probably be changed to accommodate a different different use on that higher area but I think the site plan really approves everything that's being proposed all the work being proposed so okay all right all right so you know I think we're headed toward a continuation here um any but any other hands I don't see any at the moment Johanna um if we can't make it through tonight and need a continuation I would just be interested to hear from what impact that might have on any grants the town is raising to make this project right now I think our next meeting is January 3rd assuming we hold it Chris or Dave do you want to comment on if we go to early January it sounded like that was not an issue Dave can you hear me Doug yes yes yeah I would favor a continuance to give us more time to investigate those those few options about the the request we made um to Johanna's point or question um I have not heard any significant concerns or or requested changes to the trail system and that's really what we need to get out to bid so if I'm hearing the board members correctly it's your concerns are really about the parking lot parking access from West Palm Roy those kinds of things they are not part of the grant funding or the bid for the most part the bid I think Nate correct me if I'm wrong but they would not be part of the bid at all really so I'm pretty confident that a continuation would not uh to some time in January would not negatively impact our bidding okay great that's good news I yeah I will say that we don't have a budget at all for significant improvements or changes to the parking areas so and and the grant will not the grants will not pay for those so we're we're gonna try to answer all of your questions uh with the expertise from the fire department and uh town engineering well I mean I guess one other thing that I could ask whether you considered which was for now maybe putting sursy barriers along the edge of the existing clubhouse and leaving the parking lot with two points of access one of which is wide enough and probably sloped adequately and the other one which is somewhat substandard but has been there for 65 years Dave so yeah we we we did consider that we came up with this new land which we thought was based on safety about getting people visitors etc away from the clubhouse but I think if you continue this hearing we will go back to the drawing board a little bit and look at at that maybe going back to the drawing board shall we say a little bit on access to the site so we're happy to do that okay thank you Bruce um just reminding you Doug that there was another condition that we discussed as a possible and that was minimum putting a minimum on the parking um I don't necessarily support that but I I thought some may and uh it now would be the time right it seemed like you know by the time the conversation was over you know everybody most people were comfortable with using the 27 spaces and the 388 spaces and I'm certainly not going to push that issue any further if you know I didn't hear a ground swell of support I think I did hear a couple at least one person saying that was was good but you know it's clear the town is going to be back whenever they decide to invest some more money in this so all of that can be revisited okay um Chris anything you want to say about your extensive possible findings on this document no I just wanted to ask the board if they felt that it was necessary to go through all of those findings and come up with reasons why each one was found or um is this the kind of project that would be suitable to say that the project meets the relevant criteria I would be happy to go through all of the findings not tonight but by January 3rd if you want that to be done I didn't have time to do it for tonight right so why don't you let me know um sometimes you manage the more simple projects by just saying this project meets the relevant criteria of section 11.24 but some but most of the time we go through all the findings so it's up to you okay Bruce I think I'm comfortable with the first I mean I haven't been on the board that long so maybe uh but I do and maybe I'm uh affected by the protocols and practices of 25 years ago when I was on the board for seven years um and uh but it it but it does seem to me and I'll make one point on this that you know we are aboard we have a certain amount of time available to us we've got a lot to do in that time so in the interest of optimizing the use and the value of our time I'm inclined to think that the one line is sufficient I'd be interested to hear whether others agree okay Bruce uh Karen totally agree I agree with Bruce okay and I I guess I was thinking you know we could leave we could sort of leave the meeting at the moment with the agreement that we would just have to single line and but if anybody reads through that section and and thinks otherwise uh you know between now and whenever we continue this conversation and preferably far enough in advance of the conversation that uh staff can respond with the individual comments um you know we could we could proceed in that way too okay um Chris were there any other documents you wanted us to get through on this topic I don't believe so um other than to acknowledge that um I sent you a memo with regard to how this project met the requirements of article 16 which you don't need to um vote on that but I think it's it's necessary to acknowledge that it meets the requirements of article 16 because article 16 talks about um you know whenever you do any activities within the hundred year flood zone that you are supposed to permit it and so here we are permitting it by the conservation commission issuing an order of conditions and eventually the planning board issuing a site plan review approval and then of course we have the zoning board of appeals that would be issuing its um special permit for those structures so I will um revise that memo now that we know that the zoning board of appeals has a role here too but that's the only thing that I wanted to make sure that you knew and that you acknowledged that okay great all right so it does um actually Janet I see your hand so Chris I was I was you know I I know this um section is brand new and it would took you 10 years to achieve it and so um I was like oh we're finally we're applying it so do I understand from you that the staff has looked at these very flat you know pathways that basically are going to be replicating the existing flat pathways almost completely and adding a few more and taking away some um is not going to result in any increase in flood levels within the community so it seems like we have to make a finding that this analysis has been done and there's no you know negative impact on the um flood the flood zone so I think when I read your email before it's like you you all looked at that and made that determination so and then we need a point on that right that is a determination that the conservation commission made um when they issued their order of conditions but if you want to make that finding as well I think we could do that okay I'm not I'm not I thought that I thought that your email was suggesting but if the concom is done that I'm good okay all right all right thanks Janet okay um so is it simple is it is it adequate for me to make a motion that this hearing be continued to a date certain uh and we you can give me some suggestions about the date and time I know we were planning to talk about whether we needed to have a January 3rd meeting and um you know I know you had hoped that we would not meet so that you could catch up on minutes so you know I guess part of the question has to do with how urgently the town would like us to finish this up uh and you know Dave sounded like some anytime in January is probably fine but you know I'm not sure whether you really need our sign off to to issue your bid or whether you can prepare the bid and go out to bid even before we're done well a couple of things for me one is that January 17th is not a reasonable date to continue this hearing too because we have the Fort River School coming up and that's a huge project and it's going to take probably at least two meetings to get through that um and then there's also the issue of the zoning board of appeals needing to approve these structures in the FPC zoning district so I would say it's either January 3rd or it's February 7th I think is the next possible date and for so far for February 7th we don't have any public hearings so well in terms of your workload and priorities which do you prefer speaking for myself I think January 3rd would work but I have two colleagues who also um participate with me and one of them is taking all of next week off and the other one is taking um a few days next week off so I will be here I'll be here and I think I can manage to you know get the get the packets out at least well Nate Nate and I or I guess Pam will be back on Thursday so Pam and I can get the packets out if it's just this project or maybe if it's this project and the continuation of the topic that we haven't gotten to yet um I think we can manage it but let me see Pam's face is Pam looking very Chris this is Dave sorry to jump in I had my hand up duck Chris I would just advocate I think January 3rd is not realistic we we need to get the fire department we need to talk to the town engineer next week is a holiday week I just think it's it's unrealistic to think we will turn this around and have adequate preparation for the board by January 3rd I think I don't feel comfortable we can do that so okay well it could be January 31st we have a third meeting scheduled for January I think that's fine um Nate if Nate would just chime in I Nate are you in agreement that if these are really issues to do with access in the parking lot the bid for the the trails themselves can still go out yeah I had raised my hand and lowered it thinking um that the third wouldn't be adequate time to speak to the engineer you know if they're on vacation or out or and we and if we need to come up with an alternative plan I'll go back to kind of the original plan of having access via the current entrance which is closer to the clubhouse that'll take a little time to draw and and bring together so I think I think the end of January is much more realistic if the board is is agreeable to that yeah I was going to say right I haven't heard many concerns about the trail layout itself or benches or other things and that's really what we're bidding I think like Dave mentioned it's you know the parking lot to the road is what the town's doing the trails are what the contractor is doing so I feel comfortable that you know we're trying to um have bids um be publicized in early January just so we can have someone under contract as soon as possible but it doesn't you know the conservation commission has reviewed this and so the trail locations are pretty you know they approve those and since I'm not hearing any concern tonight I feel like comfortable that we can go ahead with getting bid documents together uh and then the 31st doesn't really delay delay that okay great um all right so uh 635 on do we want to go to January 31st or February 6th there's something 7th Chris do you care I'd say that January 31st is okay with me is it okay with um Pam and Nate yeah okay Pam I'm not hearing now keep talking and you hear me now okay it's absolutely fine with me in terms of you know availability we just have to be mindful of the idea that we're going to then again have back-to-back meetings so we just have to be thinking about what we have going on the 7th which at this time is nothing right but I suspect the Fort River school is gonna can come back to it could yeah Bruce I second your motion though the motion I have I think you have so uh so a motion to continue to 635 on January 31st second thank you Bruce uh Chris and Pam you have that noted all right we're going any comments on on the motion on the table Janet you are muted did was it seconded I was gonna second yes Bruce Bruce got in there okay ahead of time yep okay um all right then we'll go through a roll call starting with you Bruce uh I approve and Fred hi Jesse hi Janet hi Johanna hi Karen hi and I'm and I as well okay it's unanimous to continue this hearing to January 31st at 635 great Dave any last thoughts no I just want to thank the board for their input and we will work hard during the month of January to address the the concerns and questions you raised thank you okay thank you all right the time is 9 36 and the next item on our agenda uh I believe was continuing the potential hope housing overlay zone along university drive uh given the hour we may this is not a hearing we are not obligated to talk about this very long or at all um I am wondering whether we really want to do this or whether we just want to uh move along and conclude the evening and come back maybe on January 3rd which is the conversation we still want to have is will we meet on January 3rd Karen I see your hand oh I'm sorry I forgot that I had my hands up but I think we should try not to meet on January 3rd and give our staff some time off to finally do the minutes and just not keep overwhelming them okay Janet um I was going to suggest that we put this discussion off to the January 31st meeting because I think that we're going to wrap up I'm definitely not in the mood to talk about the overlay district which I'm excited about but not at the moment I'm just okay all right uh Johanna um I like hear the ghost of planning board members past saying you have to approach this issue of housing with urgency and so there's part of me that wants to spend 20 minutes and just time cap ourselves at 10 o'clock to discuss the proposed consensus agreement and take it from there all right um Karen I see your hand all right sorry okay all right uh well Nate yeah I was gonna um just kind of um along the lines of what Johanna said if not tonight you know Bruce had uh synthesized the the notes and then I had redrawn possible boundary changes and so whether or not it's discussed tonight you know to think about those you can always send comments to staff and we can um you know we can combine those and and then get those distributed before the next time we discuss it so if you know if we're not gonna have a discussion tonight individual members can also take notes on their own um yeah I'm I'm I mean I'm I'm tired I don't want to talk about this tonight um but I am also feeling some urgency to get this worked out and sent up to town council um you know we are going to have Fort River school we're going to have a design design standards consultant coming on sometime in the spring we think um to help us with design standards for downtown which will be a you know 18 month or two year process a pretty heavy lift for staff and so if we don't if we don't do this soon it you know it's probably not going to happen for a while and I am I guess like Johanna I'm feeling I'm hearing the people saying you know we have a housing crisis do something and um you know it's really up to us to generate some stuff so I see three hands uh actually Chris I'm going to let you go first okay I was just going to say we could piggyback this on to the Fort River school um sometimes you get into the middle of a really big public hearing and you realize that you have many questions and the public hearing has to be continued so it could be that there would be time on the 17th to talk about this particular issue for you know 45 minutes to an hour at the end of that meeting so I think that's what I would say I I personally am not um feeling like delving into something that's complicated right now and I I think looking at your faces that others aren't as well so um I would suggest put it on at the end of the 17th and we'll see if we get to it okay yeah that seems like a good idea Jesse uh I kind of want to split the difference and ask Nate to give us five minutes on what what changed just so we can think about it for the 17th but I like Chris's idea a lot all right sure well I'm gonna just I'll just I'll just yeah I'll give my elevator pitch no I think Bruce's document is is nice and in summary I think there were some consensus points I mean so what I'd like to do then for the next meeting would be actually start to fill out you know kind of a template bylaw and after the meeting the recent discussions my thought would be to call this something whether it's like you know like an economic and housing housing and economic development overlay because of the kind of the discussion about trying to keep commercial right so the idea would be that the name of the overlay is intentional and then the purpose and the goals of it are reinforced and work their way down and so I think what you know what I've heard is that we don't want to limit housing to you know student housing so we're actually you know actually the opposite we're going to allow apartments and mixed use buildings maybe not allow the student dormitories or if they are would be by special permit but other things would be by site plan review we like the idea of additional stories we like the idea of having a pretty high percentage of first floor requirement of being non-residential space and so you know that doesn't it could be that other things you know there's more on upper floors of non-residential but we'd have a requirement for first floor you know what Bruce had said what the things that aren't kind of resolved are the details the setbacks some architectural design standards I think those are things staff could work on I think it will be different for instance the west side there is the access drive and you know the right of way is actually really wide on that section of street but it's off centered from the road so swift way is in the right of way and then there's still a lot of other space on the east side a lot of it's wet but on the west side for instance I think we almost want gosh it could be you know a 12, 15, 18 foot setback to allow for that second pedestrian you know off street corridor and so you know I think that we can look at that and say okay that's what we would want you know I still think four floors with a step back to a fifth floor and so you're not five floors straight up the street you know right up on the facade but it would be step back I think recommending aligning curb cuts with the other side of the street so we have reduced user conflicts between vehicles and pedestrians you know considering what kind of open space amenities requirements we would have you know right now it's looking to me like we wouldn't have a full build out like bg but it'd be more like you know 70% or something you know lock coverage and building coverage to be something half space minimum parking requirements so I you know I do think that all those pieces were were really well taken I would apply inclusionary zoning maybe have a little bit bigger requirement in terms of getting higher AMI that would be a local program not something that has run through the state and so you know just putting all those pieces down you know I think the difficulty is how you know sometimes it's like how prescriptive do you want an overlay to be right we could we can essentially take pieces from the existing bylaw and put it together or we could come up with something really creative or we can be really prescriptive or do we do we do we have uses dimensional standards and a few a few guidelines and that's where it goes or do we get really prescriptive in terms of architecture and what we want and you know I think that's a discussion and I think I think it goes I think it can go either way I do think that this is a really great opportunity where there's room for density and infill I still I want to make sure it's what we we think we're going to get what we want in terms of appearance and aesthetics and so you know I sent those pictures around of new development and so I haven't heard from anyone but I just want to make sure we're not you know we're not thinking we're going to get 19th century buildings you know you know like what we see behind me right or like brick buildings with granite lentils and all this stuff what we might get is like live 155 in north hampton where it's a modern building and maybe we want to see some relief in architecture some detail along the roof line a parapet or whatever you know some overhangs but I think this is a a nice a nice overlay I think we have to consider do we want like townhouse style development or is it going to be mostly bigger unit develop you know bigger multifamily buildings like apartments are mixed use and so if so how do we write that in yeah and I think those are the the pieces that would be discussed and so you know as an overlay again too it's voluntary so just think anything that's allowed now there's already a number of kind of zoning districts that could still happen and then the boundaries we asked about why include the jones property north of amnesty but you know that that one house on the corner zone bl and so not including the overlays fine but then there's this little part of bl that's not in the overlay and then in the new map I didn't include hawkins meadow or the auto shop next to it I did you know it's interesting right if we had the overlay are we incentivizing changing hawkins meadow when right now it might be working fine but I still kept the properties on both all quadrants of that intersection and so again there was a discussion point around that so I think the boundaries are important and you know I think kind of having that purpose and goals I think we're working through them and to me if the idea is to keep student or housing opportunity and economic development and those are that's kind to me those are the two pieces we'd want to reinforce with the overlay and so what are the have goal statements that do that have maybe new definitions if we need them and dimensional standards and guidelines that get us there all right I didn't time you but I think you hit five minutes all right so we have homework and we're going to skip class on January 3rd I think but we'll we'll be back on the 17th all right so I guess I need to run through the rest of the agenda here but first are we finished have we have we we're done with the housing overlay for this evening any objections all right other housing issues I think this was related to some of the concerns that Jesse had had raised I anything we would need to say tonight okay okay uh old business Chris anything no old business any about new business anything not reasonably anticipated new business we're putting our planner position back out um we're hoping that someone will be interested in coming to work with us because we're such a fun group to work with and we have really interesting work to do so hopefully that'll go out in the next couple of weeks and we'll get a new vibrant energetic person okay department all right form a ANR subdivision oh maybe Nate wants to say something about new business which is yeah I think the design standards Chris yes yeah so the town did uh there was a review committee the town selected Dodson and Flinker uh and there uh the contract was was actually executed today so I think we're moving that along pretty quickly the hope to have a meeting in January a meeting or two just to get that going and we'll keep everyone up to date on that so you know initially it'll be meeting with staff and kind of laying out the schedule and process and you know what what you know how do they how do they envision the you know next three months going in terms of public outreach and documentation and and everything so we're pretty excited we had three responses all qualified firms Dodson really had a nice thorough response they really understood the scope of work and what we're asking and context and they've actually you know they've done this in Northampton and other communities they were they were one of the respondents that had really solid visuals and and zoning and you know narratives to accompany their graphics so we're pretty pleased with that all right great um okay back to the Form A and R anything no Form A's nothing all right ZBA applications anything I have no report okay um planning board oh upcoming SPP SPR SUBs other than that we have full coming on the 17th yep and that is a big one yep very exciting it's beautiful it went to the designer view board the other night and they were very pleased with it they didn't have any negative comments and they really like the design it's it's really quite lovely quite graceful um is there is there a traffic report associated with this there is a traffic report there's I know I've heard sort of mutterings that there's concern among some people that this putting the school here in is going to really snarl traffic in that basic part of town so uh is does the traffic report seem comprehensive enough um I would say I'm going to reserve judgment on that okay uh Bruce hi on that subject I attended the design the building committee meeting as I have for the past three years on this project and I mentioned the likely concern that this board would have in that on that subject so I'm sure they'll be prepared I it's one of the things I mentioned to them was that the concerns for the traffic that the project has had uh in in the past has been evaluation of the traffic uh challenges and so forth associated with the Wildwood site versus the Fort Rivers site so it was a an assessment of uh traffic related to choosing a site and I wanted to make sure that they uh changed their focus to not that particular concern but how it would work here I'm sure they'll be prepared they as Chris said this is an exceptional design team they really are good good great okay moving on to planning board committee and liaison reports uh PVPC Bruce anything you want to say uh well they was a meeting uh and and uh they had uh uh uh basically a presentation on battery energy storage systems uh it's quite elaborate actually and and the the uh I don't want to go into too much on this but there's a model ordinance that's been produced and um and the other thing is that I mean it's been produced it's it's probably something that Janet knows a little bit about or maybe a lot about but the the PVPC are are supporting towns in this and also the district local technical assistance deadline's been extended and and one of the points in which they offer funding assistance is related to housing I'm sure thank you've looked at this but I just thought I'd mention it because that's what I'm supposed to do that's it okay thanks Bruce for CPAC I have been attending weekly meetings on Thursdays and I think we have our next meeting tomorrow uh I think it may be the last meeting I want to give a lot of credit to Dave Zomek and some of the other town staff including Chris for basically here finding out what the original complete set of asks were and once you know they understood what the shortfall was coming back and prioritizing the town asks so that I think that we're probably going to be able to fund kind of everything that's left is kind of what it looks like to me um so we'll see we'll see what happens and you're welcome to tune in Karen anything on drb yeah so I missed that meeting that Chris was talking about about the school because I was uh in the air at that time so I'm sorry I I don't have anything to say okay okay you're not going to tell us how Hawaii is right now it's cold and windy and rainy oh gosh just like here okay uh CRC Chris you're smiling CRC I haven't been to a CRC meeting recently but the town council did refer the solar bylaw to the CRC maybe Janet mentioned this last time with the um requests that they report back by sometime in June I believe in June okay so a pretty long period well hopefully it'll be sooner than that all right all right great so the time now is 955 and I don't have a report other than to say it's been a great 2023 with all of you I hope we have as equally or better time in 2024 have a good rest and um until January 17th Chris anything from you thank you and happy holidays and we'll look forward to seeing you in mid-January all right anybody have anything else thank you to the staff yes thank you thank you so much all right time is 955 and I think we are adjourned good night bye all right good night Pam good night mr. Marshall yes I want to have a good holiday