 Welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pukie Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, how can we create a quality of opportunity for every student? And I'm in conversation with Haroon Bashir, the Equality Manager and Deputy Designated Safeguarding Lead at Hale's Owen College. Hello everybody, my name's Haroon Bashir and I work at Hale's Owen College and my role is Equality Manager and Deputy DSL. So some of my role involves dealing with the quality aspect of making sure that students feel that they're well respected at Hale's College and also that they're treated safely and my specialism within the safeguarding I suppose is online safety and also dealing with prevention. That's quite a lot of hats you wear in there actually, isn't it? It is, yeah. I do a little bit of teaching as well just to keep myself sort of engaged in that. Just to make sure that that 25th hour of the day is fully utilised. Exactly. So how long have you done this role? The safeguarding role, this is my fourth year now. So my background is that I still teach accounts. So accounting sort of the subject that I teach and it doesn't work but it does. And then I've sort of had a really keen interest in the past door side of things. Where I like working with students. I think they're really interesting. They're at that sort of crossroads in their life where they're not sure what they want to do and it's just really helping and supporting them and you can make a really big difference in their life. So I then sort of worked more in pastoral and then I worked with some curriculum and then I've gone back to pastoral and then I realised that I actually do like working with students and making that difference and the safeguarding role makes me or allows me to give the opportunity to make that difference at a higher level. And what does that, when you say making a difference, what does that mean? What does success look like for you there? I suppose it's all those things that I took for granted growing up I suppose aren't into each other the norm with some other students. So I think that even just having a house to go back to and having family around me, I think there are some students who unfortunately don't have that and it's giving them that help, helping them to believe in themselves and raise their aspirations and making an impact in life and they can do it if they really, really try and there's nothing that's wrong with them. I suppose I'm there as a part of the role model because I've worked hard for where I am. I do find it hard sometimes, I'm not going to be a great student but I will work hard and I use that because I sometimes find it hard to understand difficult concepts or I'll work and work and work at it and that determination really makes me sympathise and empathise with students and say look you can be done. So for me it's a success story. So we come into the end of the year and I made a few phone calls last Friday where I spoke to some students and they joined us about two years ago and they were in a really difficult situation in their life. They were in a hospital and they weren't very well and we supported those students into the college, we made sure that they had regular meetings and they had a safe place where they could go and at the end of the year there are people who are now going to university and it's just seeing that difference and just saying thank you and seeing that change along that journey as well. So we're in the past we might have self-harmed or done something really serious they've actually overcome that through a lot of people working together so college, air and external services work together and making that difference. Really rewarding, really rewarding. Definitely. I think today it's a shame for children, for young people because they grow up in such a fear-driven environment. When you read the news it's about well the whole country is in debt and they've got to pay that back in the future. There's not going to be any jobs and it's the same really because I don't remember having that when I was growing up and I just remember you can do what you want and you can really aspire to be what you want to be but we had a bit more resilience and we just got on with it and that was the way things were but I think unfortunately kids aren't taught, the young people aren't taught to be resilient as much and it's about just giving them that confidence. It's okay to make mistakes and that bounce ability and if they do make mistakes they can come back and as long as they learn from it. And again it's coming back to that safe space where they're not going to be judged or feel threatened. And why do you think that that's sort of changed so much that you feel that the kids are less resilient now? I think technology plays a big part. So when I was growing up there was a bully at school or there was a really bad day with people or I'd go home and that was my safe space and I wouldn't see those people until the next morning but know that you've got social media and you've got mobile phones it's really hard to switch off because it carries on and that could go on late at night and then it's a bit less sleep and then they're going back to school the next day and they're carrying that with them all the time so having that break and when I was growing up in my daily life was a lot easier I think just helping to recharge and to rethink and to realign so it's a very much different climate I think we need to try and understand that when working with young people. So it's maybe from what you said not necessarily that they're less resilient but actually just that they've got more to deal with. Yeah I think resilience is probably the wrong word because they're absorbing a lot on their shoulders and I think they just need to focus on what they can change How are your students reacting to the current situation so we're recording this in the middle of Covid and in the context of the whole Black Lives Matter movement I think they want to be listened to, I think it's talking to them I think communication is the key to a lot of this really so what we've done at the college is we have a certain number of students that we look after in safeguarding role and during the whole of the past 200 days we've made weekly contact with them and we've sent emails and different reminders on different themes just to keep that continuity going and making sure that they're okay and we've shared because we're going through that experience ourselves we're sharing our experiences with them as well and for me anyway I feel that I'm on the same, I'm just slightly ahead of them and it's about saying it's okay to not be okay and we're in it together and giving them that hope and that light at the end of the tunnel and supporting them really through it and I think the same with Black Lives Matter I think there's been a lot of press there and it's my own there was a time where I was just reading a lot on Twitter and it was the same negativity coming through again and again and years about these videos about that and I had to take a break from it I had to take a step back and think it really isn't good for you because it was bringing me down and I wasn't in a position to be that person who maybe might be able to influence it and make it better so I had to almost look at it from there of eyes that's interesting and what made you feel that you weren't in a position to influence it and make it better when you're the equality manager in your college? I think it felt very emotional and I was because I kept it there's a thing on social media which is called echo chambers where people are echoing the same views that you've got all the time and it gets people riled up whether it's something to do with racism or brexit and it's about trying to get that balance because then you start to see that everybody's the same and it's not like that there are so many good things going on in life and I think if you're constantly fed with that it does bring you down and it's almost like your emotions are fine but then your brain needs to take over and you need to start thinking about we're going to have students who are going to come here in September and August they're going to experience issues with COVID they've not been in education for a long time they've experienced a lot of injustice just with Black Lives Matter and how can we make this a better and safer place for them so it's sort of I suppose, I don't want to use the word man up but I think I have to think differently and how you can start leading people through this but in order to that you need to make sure that you're in a good position for yourself so I'm very careful now about how many hours or how many minutes I'm sort of looking on social media because sometimes it's not healthy is that something that you've kind of shared with your students in terms of how you've managed that for yourself? Definitely I've given myself as well because I've delivered some training on online safety and I've said that it does have an impact and I suppose it balances and making sure that you've got the information and emotions good but not too much of it because then it can be an overload and you are in your home all the time and you can't discuss it because it can lead to you making assumptions about what people like and the world is a horrible place so one of the things we tried to do was I think it was an organisation called Switch Promotions they basically had during the month of June it was almost like a gratitude month but every day you would do something different and it would be for somebody else and it was there to sort of improve your mental health so it was really quite powerful and we said that with the students so it was one of the emails that we would send out to them and say have you tried this or have you tried that and to do something different would help them grow a little bit more and there were things that I did which were different What kind of things? It's really sort of just going out and doing some gardening and just planting seeds and doing something I've been the lawn before and I've cut the hedges but doing things where I think it's quite nice and it's very tactile when you're sort of just putting your hands in soil and just planting seeds and then going back and waiting for them to grow and even reading I'm not a big reader at all I've started to try and read more as an entertainment as an enjoyment thing in a release and doing this putting myself out of my comfort zone by doing this with you so I've learnt that if I've got to grow and develop I've got to read my example reading It sounds like you think quite a lot about how you are a role model clearly to the young people that you work with and that you position yourself quite carefully in terms of what you're trying to convey through your actions and your words, is that fair? Definitely, yes because I think being from an ethnic minority background I know how difficult it is when I became a manager there weren't many managers around and it's about not limiting yourself and making sure that what you do it's almost like you've got to you've got to see what you want be what you want other people to see Does that make sense? You want to see what you want other people to be I suppose so you want to you're in that position and people can see you and think, oh yeah, Haroon can do it I think it's important for people to see you for who you are so for example my faith is that I'm Muslim and I need unprevent people that shouldn't correlate but I'm there to actually say these people don't represent my faith I'm trying to be a positive role model and a salesman if you like for my faith where I'm showing what it's really about and I want people to go away and think well hang on a minute, if this is happening by these people they're saying this I know Haroon and he's that what's going on and it's almost just going against That makes sense You have to think carefully about taking on that agenda or was that something that you absolutely knew you wanted to be part of Both really I want to be part of it but it's about looking at the best way of getting that message across and I have to do it my way I suppose, things that I've come up with and I've just led some sessions on it and conscious bias and it took me about six months to get the tone right and to use the right language because the majority of the staff that I've spoken to are white and there are things in there which could be sensitive for them but I don't want to make it just a white issue, it's unconscious biases with all of us Tell us what unconscious bias is So it's really thinking about the way that you're thinking and what you're making a decision so 95% of what we think about is automatically programmed and it's a case of where does that come from and 5% is thinking just slowing down so that 95% will come back from our own personal experiences what we read in the media, what we see on TV and it's about stopping and thinking about the other person and for that to happen we need to slow down and really look at the other person and their point of view And how did you find the right tone then? I think I used quite a few videos and I made sure that the video I didn't because we've had to do it on sort of remotely I've used quite a few videos which I've asked people to come forward to discuss and I'd like to think that people at college think that I'm balanced and I'm a good egg and they can speak to me which they do anyway and it's building on what we do at college and so I've used a college I've used sort of I'd say generic terms and then sort of delved a bit deeper and then come back out but the examples that I've given aren't just about black and white it's about male or female it's about sexuality it's about different religions so people can relate to different aspects of it so it's very important that I have that interaction and there has been sessions where they end and they say well I don't agree with this particular aspect and we've had a discussion and it's educational and I've not been emotional at all about it and I'm not personally thankful for voicing their concern and we can have that discussion and that conversation for me hasn't finished it's something that will carry on in the future I've mentioned I don't know if you saw a full programme at the school that tried to end racism I've not seen the programme but I've read about it it's really powerful it's very interesting because one of the they question and they discuss issues with a year seven group from a school in I think it's in South London and they split them up and they're saying well if you're splitting them isn't that causing them but they're splitting up so people can save and then they're bringing them back together ethnicity or ethnicity so you had the white students in one group and then you had the non-white students in the other and then as the weeks went on because I think it was a number of weeks the school programme was on for they then split up the non-white group into Asian and then black and even within those groups there's differences so it was really interesting and I think one of the questions is that we don't we're not aware of I remember going to an LGBT talk and there was a question that was posed to the audience at what age did you realise that you were a heterosexual and I thought that's those people who have got an from an LGBT background at a young age or a certain age and then I think realised that they were different and that was in my mind and I thought well actually it's exactly the same from being similar to my different background and when I asked them what age did you know that you were white and they go well I haven't I've always been like that but for me from a young age from about age I realised that I was different and some people would treat me differently when I was at school I was treated differently to outside school and it was really interesting because then you're able to actually share your experiences and then you can open the door but I think people don't I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg syndrome people are too scared to talk about race because they don't want to offend but you just have to pre-empt yourself and say well look I don't want to offend but can I just ask you a question and I've you know I've lived a lot about people who have transitioned from female to male over the last sort of four or five years I don't want to offend but can I just ask you a question about this and it's been open about how you what you're not sure about really and not do it in an offensive manner and just ask them nicely and you know I've not had any negative responses back from people when I've asked them but I'm quite inquisitive I do I love cultures, different cultures I love backgrounds and I find it really fascinating Do you think that's because you know you had that you said you had that sense from about the age of eight that you were different than your peers or is it just driven by something deeper I don't know I just found it interesting I like differences I think because I'm different I appreciate other differences and I try to look the commonality between different people as well so for me my faith is quite important and I know for other people faith is important whether they're Christian, Muslims and I try to make that connection with people so I think for me it's about making connections and going deeper than just what's on the outside And what do you think are the questions that we should be asking I know when we spoke a few days ago prior to this then we were having it was really interesting for me hearing a little bit about you know how you pray and the kind of the feelings associated with that and I found myself thinking I feel a bit ashamed that I don't know more about this already I've got a lot of Muslim friends but I've never thought to ask what's it like getting up at three in the morning to pray and what are the things that you think we should be asking, what are the conversations we should be having to have better awareness of each other It's a really good question it's really hard I think I think conversation just a lot of our lives are very very similar but there's certain parts where we just dedicate to that act of worship it goes both ways I think it's asking people about their faith and also people just being open and asking about yours so for example when it's Ramadan and I'm fasting I let people know because sometimes my breath might not smell very nice and I feel a bit tired and I feel a bit weak and people then ask questions so I suppose I open the door for that but I think for the majority of the time where people have come to me it's when there's been an issue in the workplace I suppose it's actually your Muslim that's open the discussion it's more of a go-to thing then sort of tell me about this I love the idea though that you're the Muslim you can represent the views of millions I just kind of think I can't imagine someone coming to me and going you're white you know what I mean I think it's that comfortability I've been at the college here for this is my 18th year so people know who I am they've seen who I am and I suppose they know what they're getting with me I suppose somebody asked me a question I'll always be very honest with them but I won't make them feel small and I think it's just having that approach I think that's important you've been there 18 years having a lot of education wow I guess you like it then yeah I've done a lot of different roles so I've been very fortunate and very privileged to you know I came as a lecturer and I did that for three or four years and then I moved into a pastoral lead for another four years and then I was asked to be ahead of division and work with staff again for another three years and then I went back to the role of quality and pastoral and then I've gone to safeguarding so every sort of three to four years it's sort of changed so and it's nice because it's all going into the same festival and all the skills and everything that I've learned it's there to share with people and it's made me hopefully a more rounded person as well. And I guess the fact you've stayed there that time indicates it's somewhere where you feel kind of you know you enjoy being there you feel it's a good environment where you can thrive and I think students and the staff make it for me. I think the students are amazing I think you know they're at that as mentioned earlier they're at that age where they're at that crossroads where they're going from school to quality to real life and I only live up the road so it's it's quite nice because I get to see students I taught years ago and they look very very different it makes me feel really old but no because I'll see them sort of like in Sainsbury's and I'll go hello and I'll get into the stage and I'll have people saying hello to me and I don't even know who they are they look so different because I've come to college with a very sort of young baby face and very youthful and they're real men with kids or you know it's very very different and it's nice it's nice to see that and but yeah I think you know the staff are very good as well I think I'm not promoted I'm not you know you know obviously very much I think there's some stuff you know it works so hard they're very open they're very honest and it's like a little family and you know if I wasn't happy I you know I would have looked elsewhere so no but it's you know and I think the students that we get we get a really nice mix of students as well you know it's it's real life it's a true representation of real life tell me a bit more about the the kind of college and how big it is and what kind of stuff you specialize in and what kind of students you're drawing on we've got um we have four and a half thousand students so it's 16 predominantly an FE college but we mainly focus on 16 to 19 year olds but we have 14 to 16 year olds and we have um some adult courses like access courses and part-time degree courses as well um and we have full-time degree courses so um but the the main sort of bread and butter if you like is into 19 year olds and they come for about 200 different schools in the area wow so we have coaches that come to the college and um we've got about 30 different coach routes that we did have before the lockdown yeah and um so they come from all you know from we're in the middle of Birmingham and Wolverhampton so um we've got them from Birmingham from Sandwell from Dudley I'm not sure how familiar people are with the area uh from Worcester from South Staffordshire and it's a nice mix and because it's not it's there's no loyalty to one particular school there's no sort of oh this is our territory everybody comes in a sort of lost little bunnies if you like in the first few days and then they settle in really well by the end of the day they're sort of exchanging mobile numbers and Snapchat addresses on Instagram and um and they then sort of just develop and it's you know people respect each other and you know this is the age where they can be themselves so they can wear whatever religious wear they want they can wear makeup they can wear the dresses they if they're transitioning you know they're very very comfortable to be who they are and it's very central to what we do at the college so you create a really safe environment for your learners definitely yeah do you think there are any sort of issues with that because if your learners I mean this it sounds like a wonderful environment but what happens when they leave I mean is this preparing them for the real world yeah I thought I was you the majority of our students I would say are here for two years so in year one it's just getting them to fit in um it's not fitting what's fitting through sort of partly adult worlds where we still have parental contact and um so we don't get away from the parents exactly but then in the second half of the year that's when we then prepare them for university employment apprenticeships um and that's when they need to start to they do grow up themselves um you know they're learning to drive they're earning money and naturally it happens but we do prepare them for the real world and we do that from the start of sort of if you're like year 13 they're planning if you like for their exit quite earlier on and that worked really well because then they work hard in class because they know what grades they need to get they're looking at universities and apprenticeships and um even for learners who have got learning difficulties and special education needs um we have a really good careers department and we've got links with connections and they come in and help make that transition as well so for me I you know one of the things I really really make sure happens is that the students that come to us did not leave and have no way to go they've got to have something and they've got to be doing because I wouldn't want that for my own children no and that's central really um how I um view the young people at home so you're trying to help everybody kind of reach their their kind of potential and make sure they're they're making some good next steps definitely and sometimes they won't listen to you they won't you know I've seen that A Levels is the other way I want to do A Levels and I'm saying look please trust me do this course you know do this vocational course your grades are borderline you work so strong with your exams and you'll get to that in two years time and some listen and they've progressed onto university and done really really well some unfortunately have had to do an A the year of A Levels they didn't make they didn't pass the first year so they then had to go to the um a vocational alternative but yeah definitely it's and it's about just treating them like young adults so you can have that conversation with them generally my approach is I treat them like young adults going to kiddie mode then I have to go to adult mode um so it's um you know they are you know they are nice they are nice kids and it's nice because you don't have that emotional involvement with them so you you know and they don't have that emotional involvement with you so they listen to you a little bit more and you know you can serve them as well and do you think that because they come into you at this kind of point in their academic career if you're like and you don't you know you haven't kind of watched them grow up to this point that you're able to guide them in a different way than if they were to stay on a sixth form for example I think it's got its pros and cons I think that some people are very comfortable with the school setup and they prefer just to carry on with the sixth form and it's just an extension of school and some people adopt the approach with it's not broken you know it might change or fix it um but but I think at college I think it's that stepping stone into the real world into real life um and I think it's maybe you're calling your teachers by their first name you don't know how and you you're making your own way to college even if you kept the approach or you're making your own way back and it's then you're being a bit more responsible and it's you know it's taking that um into my door and what are the things do you think that for your students when you're saying you you want that kind of equality of opportunity that all of your students you're hoping that they're going to have good places to go after um after the college are there things that kind of typically stand in the way like what the kind of barriers that you have to help students overcome there I think we've got some students who've never been to parents have never been to university and you know they're not sure and their parents don't get it and it's about that education side of it and explained to them that you know you would have to take care of them but you don't pay it back until because um you know you earn a certain amount of money and they only hear half of it they only hear oh I don't want my son to or daughter to come out of university with all this to come out with all this debt that they've got to pay and I think they've got to pay it straight away so I think it's education and it's raising the aspirations as well and also just investing in the young people as well and being very you know even a bit of tough love and be honest with them when they are making mistakes and telling them that um you know you can do this but you might need to focus on that reducing this or you need to you know you need to back or if you want to back or you need to you know be just be careful how you speak to people because you you're very sensitive how people speak to you but you're not sensitive how you speak to people and it's a bit of tough love as well so it's coming from a good place but it's just being very honest and open with them and consistency very well and do most of your students go to university or a lot of them go into the workplace or some questions since I started to say the guiding role I've sort of had less involvement in that area but I would say it's probably about 65 percent to uni 35 percent of apprenticeships because I think apprenticeships have improved a lot over a period of time and universities have got more expensive as well so is that a big factor in the decisions that your young people are making the kind of the the cost of that higher education I think it's initially with parents because I don't want them to have that debt but once you realise when they look at that sort of what the repayment plan is and how much it's sort of all cost and that they've got to earn up to I think I think it's about some pounds down and it's only a minimum of I don't know it's a month they don't mind it then when it's broken down like that but when they have it's a whole lump sum I think it does have an impact so for example my background is teaching accounts I would say to young people it's probably better for you to get an apprenticeship in accounting or a training program because you've got that practical experience alongside the theory whereas sometimes at university it's just all theory theory theory and then they're leaving and they don't really know what it's like in the workplace and there are some really amazing training schemes where they pay a decent salary they pay you to become a qualified accountant um I don't have to figure that out so it depends what sector they're in really and what everyone's and do you have to you know if you're help supporting students to go into sort of apprenticeships then do you have to work quite carefully to kind of match them with the right work environment and I mean that must be more complicated in some ways than university I would have thought. We've got an apprenticeship team so because our colleges fit into different vocational areas they've got an idea sort of the apprenticeship will naturally lend themselves to different vocational areas so what we then do is we then put them into the careers team and the apprenticeship team and then they're able to then we have outside speakers coming in as well and we have careers fairs where we get everybody in one place at one time from different sectors so even areas where people you know like working in a bank for example they might not initially thought about that and they could sort of be more drawn towards that. Yeah so you're trying to open out those those opportunities for them and what do you do in terms of the kind of broader education of your students because it sounds like you've got you know quite a role there in terms of educating both staff and maybe students in terms of preparing them for life and to be you know good citizens and stuff I'd love to hear a little bit about that. Well we've got a tutorial program and part of it's about their own progress but it's also about developing their understanding about being safe online, how to treat other people, look at equality and differences, look at employability skills and making them a more rounded person. So one of the projects I've been on as a convent for two days a week from Christmas up until April time is called Mentors in Violent Prevention and that was with the West Midlands Police and essentially it's a care-led program where students will be trained up to deliver scenario, their beginner scenario about your place in this situation. You go to a party, one of your friends is being dragged to the bedroom by another person, what you do and it's about being a good citizen. So they have that discussion in the class and they talk about what their train of thought is, they talk about what their actions would be and what organisation could potentially help as well. So it's one of the programs that we're looking at running hopefully within the next sort of 12 months well six months really situation is where we're getting students to lead sessions for other students. Oh wow okay and that will really help improve their employability, they want to go into teaching, they want to go into the public service sector for early years then it really helps give them that skill and they can put that on their CV. And presumably the actual stuff itself is it's important stuff for them to learn. Do you think they learn it better from each other when they're led by kids? Well students play actually a very important role in promoting the college so we have student ambassadors, we have equality ambassadors, we've got careers ambassadors and well-being officers and we have students on the interview panel when we were pointing staff and we've got a student union and the student voice even on open days as well we use students and you know young people are very perceptive. The answers that we come up with even though we've done all those years of teaching and training they come up with exactly the same. They've had 11 years of it, we don't realise that when they come to college. They've been at the age of five and they know you know those teachers who are good and those who would struggle. So I was just thinking about, I remember my daughter went to university for an open day, we went straight to the doctors and the professors to find out about the course, she went straight to the students and the students sold it to her because they probably would say the same thing but they're speaking at the same sort of level and they cooked to the chase really quickly as well and if you know a young person is saying that then it's a bit more value hasn't it? Yeah absolutely they can often find the issues quickly if something's not going to work they're often able to find those issues fast don't they? Yeah. Do you find it easy to kind of engage with student voice in a meaningful way or is that something you've had to really actively work at? So in terms of student feedback in terms of what they want? Well in terms of you know you said you've got these ambassadors so like for example your equality ambassadors like what do they do and how do you make that more than a kind of tokenistic sort of a role? So we've got an equality diversity forum and students, the equality ambassadors will be invited to those meetings and they'll also help us plan what events we want to have placed during the course of the year so they've got a very active role within that so because you know we're all getting older and we don't know what a young person wants and they might think you know actually we need to do something on self-harm or we need to do something on mental health and this would be a really good way to capture that. So it's about using them to make it as effective and have a greater impact as possible. So if I was to give you an example we've since everything's come out about back lives matter there's been students at college and saying well I'm coming to your college in September what are you doing to make it a more inclusive college? So that's put the responsibility back onto the college and the college issued a statement saying that we will support Black Lives Matter and we will support you know anti-racism agenda and we will support you here and you know your voice is equal with everybody else and there's another student who was an existing student and she wrote a very powerful email to us really holding the college to account so I contacted her and I said well what would you like to do? So because we don't have all the answers we want to do it we want to make the change so she goes well I think we should do something in tutorial I go great could you do a quiz and she's done a quiz and it's quite a quiz to be very honest with you and so I said do you want to do a PowerPoint presentation just to educate people alongside it so hopefully you know she's going to be doing that over the summer and then we can use that in tutorial to educate staff and students to be honest with you so it's about giving them that platform so they can feel that their voices have their voice is being heard and we are taking them seriously because right people do have equality and diversity policies and they're just as good as the angle that they're at and but equally I think in the college we need to make sure that we're at you know we're showing positive role models in each of the curriculum areas so if some areas are underrepresented by females or by a different group we need to show those images and make sure well actually you know I can become that and you know you asked me about role models and I consider myself as being a role model and I think it can be you know if you can see it then you can become it that's how young people generally become and there are loads of really amazing role models that we need to promote at the college in different so yeah did you have any of those role models when you were growing up I couldn't name you one in terms of in the course but I do a lot of self-reflection I suppose so I always try to look at how I can improve myself and where I've gone wrong and I've had I have quite a range of different people who I think it's meant to be your standing board or influencers who I can go to and speak to so I sort of found my own but I didn't find anybody who was from the same background as me and I found work colleagues who have and I've shared we've shared similar experiences and we've you know we've gone through that journey together yeah but not when I was younger so if you didn't you know as you said before if you can see it you can aspire to it and do it but if you didn't have those role models there then what gave you the even the idea to go and do what you're doing you know how did you work out what path to go down um well part of it I suppose was when growing up I think my dad worked a lot for us um in the post office and there was never really that you know you know he he came in this in the 60s and post office you know and retired in I think 1996 um and suddenly he's probably very different but there was very little um I suppose input in terms of being a role model in the house and his job was just fine and I understand that and I respect him wholly for that I just wanted to make sure that really when it was my turn to get married and it's that I would have um I would bake differently I suppose and that drew me to education so I would be able to have the holidays the same as the kids and my own kids and then spend time investing in them yeah so I suppose um I've left my my areas along the way um I remember when I was at school I don't know if I don't know if it's just a Birmingham thing or not but when I left school people had these little books where they sign yeah I think and they write notes and um somebody wrote something to me about me and he goes don't worry Harian you'll get there one day and ouch and I don't know if that was supposed to be like you know keep persisting and you'll get there or if it's supposed to be negative but I remember that and I don't know I think it's I've had quite a few setbacks and you know um in my life so you know I went to college scene and then I worked in a bakery and I took a year out and worked as a baker and then I realised I've had like bold moments I suppose where I think you know what I could do more with my life and I want to make a difference and I suppose I've been quite blessed with the role that I've got at the college because it allowed me to carve my own own role and because I am different I suppose it lends itself to equality and people come to me I think and actually Harian you've got quite good platform here you can make a difference to lives so I suppose it's evolved more than anything but then there's been sort of opportunities which have sort of ceased um to sort of capture when I've arrived but I've had to work hard for him because I do that alongside other things as well yeah it sounds like you have had to yeah as you say kind of work hard and kind of carve your own path but at the same time the idea that you're then that that role model to the to the kids as well as sort of aspiring to an agenda I think is really brilliant is there do you have kind of any kind of unfinished business have you got stuff that you really want to change or things you want to influence I think there's always things that I want to change I think I just I want people there's a wonderful video on YouTube called labels um and it's by Prince EA or CE um and it's about dropping labels and just seeing people for who they are and I'd love to aspire to just people to see people in terms of who they are and not what shall they wear or what color or gender they are so I suppose I probably just keep carrying on and trying to do that for the rest of my life really and challenge myself and push myself so if I feel that I'm judging people I need to make sure that I'm not doing that so um I can't be fake about what I do so I suppose it's about being true to myself and um yeah just trying to just see people for who they are because that's how I want people to see me you're quite a harsh critic of yourself aren't you it's one of the things that made me most want to talk to you was when you said to me I don't know why you want to talk to me I'm not very interesting and I thought ah there's someone I would like to interview I think I just fascinated by um your well by you really I like I love people I find people really interesting and bluntly I am surrounded by amazing people who are amazing in all sorts of different ways but sometimes the ones who tell me they're amazing are the less interesting ones and it's the people who are more quietly getting on with it and actually just making a difference to people's lives every day they're the ones who really interest me and that's the thing the idea that you're working in this massive college and you're there as a role model for your ethnicity and your faith and you're trying to enable your students to aspire to you know the different things and they might otherwise have done I mean that it just fascinates me and um I think it's a really a really brilliant way to spend your life um yeah definitely I'm very privileged I let a shadow of a doubt I'm really fortunate and you know I I've you know the college didn't have an opportunity but I also put the effort in myself to make sure that you know it tries to work and you know I think I think with everything going on with the Black Lives Matter I think it's you know um it's about educating people and it's about starting that new chapter really and making sure that we take it that step further forward and we make it a greater difference. How's the Black Lives Matter stuff kind of made you reflect on um we're doing this pretty well compared to most people or is it made you kind of step back and go actually we've got a lot of work to do here I mean how's it landed with you? It's scary because we've never done anything like this before so and some people are warming to it some people say I don't need it some people say well it's all lives matter and it's really interesting the different responses um so I think it's some of it's as I said it's about education and it's about being transparent so one of the things I'm doing within the Training for Unconscious Bias is talking about what we're doing at the college and because we're delivering to approach all the staff it's actually saying well look we're doing this you can be an advocate with us it's not us and them and if you want to have a group then you can set that group up yourself as well so it's about you know saying that here go look let's go for it let's do it but what I don't want it to be is a group where people think they've got special treatment it's about equity for me not you know um favorites just or it's just being an in thing I think the biggest worry for me in terms of Black Lives Matter is that it's got to be long term yeah you know I remember was it Rodney King in the 90s where he got beat up by the LA police and died you know and then 30 or 40 years later we're we're going through the same thing again with somebody else with George Floyd and it's about learning from it and starting to strategize and really you know make it part of the the structure if you like so you know to be inclusive you know we should welcome diversity and we should celebrate that because if a college is truly truly or an organization is truly truly inclusive it doesn't matter if you've got a group for different people because you know that college without that organization should naturally support and listen to those voices anyway does that make sense yeah so we don't we don't try and make everyone the same rather we say hey do you know what we're all different and that's okay yeah definitely and I think people get any quality mixed up with equity go on in the Black Lives Matter isn't about you know well you've got the Black Lives Matter I want my life matter and Muslim life matter and women lives it's about equity and there's a lot of catching up for I feel that you know where Black people have been sort of mistreated and you know what's the word been treated unfairly and you know they just want the same as everybody else but there's a bigger distance to travel yeah and I don't like you this is just me personally I don't like using the word white privilege because I don't think it helps at all I think privilege is more important this part my life which I'm very privileged and it's not even linked with color and there's parts certainly you know when you say to somebody who's not got a job and they're white that you've got white privilege they don't get it you know there's parts of people's lives where they're very privileged but you know let's just talk about privilege and you know I think and unfortunately what worries me about the whole Black Lives Matter is that we might get distracted from what the real issues are and the issues are about being um is about equity not equality and I always say to staff and students that you know I treat my kids equally but if I show my daughter she listens if I see my son he's out back I'm treating them both the exactly the same way so I now need to look at the equity in terms of what's going to get through with both parties so it does worry me about sort of things might get hijacked and people might use them in the in the wrong context and people using it for their own agenda as well so I'm worried about the EDL using it for their own agenda and I worry about people who you know are very maybe anti-police or anti-white might be using it for their agenda and um you know I think you know we need to show our actions and they speak out of their words and how do we I mean what's your role in that in your you know you're you're both in your personal life and also in your in your job at work I mean how do you help this message to learn how we want it to and to stick with us for the long term I think we talk about it I think people are very uncomfortable to talk about race it's about defending the wrong thing oh no let's say that and it's a closed subject and I think you know how that platform where people can talk about it it's okay to disagree I think we want everybody to agree with and you know we don't need to we can have our own views but it's about seeing the person and getting on with each other and you know you might disagree with certain things but it doesn't and that's your own personal view but it doesn't mean that you treat them you know um unequally so but what I'd like to see really is more structures and systems in place which work hand in hand with organizations to make sure that you know you've got I suppose the employers and the employees working together thinking right you know we want to tackle this and we're going to work together and we're going to listen and we're going to try and change and we want to tap into the knowledge and your expertise but that does involve a massive change in mindset how could that even happen baby steps all right baby steps and start to show the value and then slowly you know actually you know this is quite good and we get some really good feedback here and you know our behavior for example our college has improved all you know and thoughts and you know if you've got all of these things coming together I think you know I'm going to be done overnight it's going to take time and I think it's a long term plan really things about getting started and even you know when I've retired it's still going to be there and people will take it on and it becomes part of it absolutely and what do you think you know in terms of there's some big stuff in there and some of those are you know projects of a lifetime or more but in terms of you know people listening if they want to do something right away that makes a difference in their day-to-day life whether that's in their work or their personal lives what what should they do what could they do I'd take a seat from the other person's viewpoint or two things really I think stop and think before you make a judgment about somebody and just so you know and question if you if you're if you've got a very close family maybe question each other as well when you see them behaving in a certain way so for example if you're in a family car and you're stopping at the traffic lights and there's somebody who's from a different from background he's coming up and you think in quick walking also you don't you know discuss why why are you doing that and you know dig that little bit deeper and start to see you can ask questions if you're not sure about something just ask because sadly you've got people from the EDL you've got Tommy Robinson nine even sort of Nigel Freud where people are hijacking it and they say well you can't say this it's not politically correct talk about it discuss it be open about it if you're not sure if there's something that's bugging you then be honest and open about it so yeah I think it's about so it's about recognising thinking for yourself stop and thinking and look at it from the other person's viewpoint as well yeah to be curious yeah it seems like every everybody who I talk to I talk to people in a whole range of different topics and be curious just seems to be a theme that runs throughout that's because we're not I think people want us to be programmed don't they to think in a certain way in a certain way and I think that creativity of being curious you know is really you know it's a really interesting thread you were interested you were curious about me I'm curious about other people and about how they they did their lives and that's why I like equality and you know diversity a lot yeah so yeah and I was you know I always ask questions and I get told off by my family because sometimes I ask sort of like the wrong questions all the way but I'm always just asking and so you know that's just me unfortunately I don't think it's unfortunate maybe maybe you know your family might disagree but I think it sounds like a you know a great asset I think it's important to be able to explore things and to question things whether that's yeah a worker at home it's certainly something we try and encourage of our children that they ask I'll tell you what's really interesting I like football and there I support football club I'm going to tell you which one because I don't want your views to sort of switch and when I'm at a football match everybody is one it doesn't matter where you're from if you're wearing that colour that's your role as one and you're singing together you're as soon as it's a goal you're all celebrating together and it's really nice I've even told my wife to football matches and we went to Wembley it was about 400 people all around us we are the only road faces in the middle of all the stream of white football fans and we didn't feel threatened at all and and it was nice but then sadly when people then leave the stadium they just go their own ways into their own world yeah and it's a shame that that can't sort of carry on really in life yeah and bring coming together for a kind of common purpose it's a really interesting thought though actually and maybe thinking about how do you create that you know what is you said this earlier I'm really looking for commonality isn't it and there you shared a team but yeah well we did Ramadan football um not this Ramadan but last Ramadan where we had a football tournament for one one day from nine till 12 at night and it was open to students they came in there's a hundred students that came in from all backgrounds that they et together some of the Muslims prayed and then they prayed football in the tournament and it was amazing because then about half 11 12 o'clock half 11 they just all left and they all went home and they were all like talking together and and they were just doing things together wow and it was so amazing to watch and it really sort of made me think you know we need to do more of this yeah we need the sort of youth club set that people can mix you know when I was growing up I spent more time in my mind in a church than I did in a mosque because I went to scouts I went to Red Cross I went to their youth club um so it was really interesting and I suppose that gave me an appreciation for different posts and different backgrounds as well yeah I think that's it it's important isn't it to just get to know people as people yeah exactly yeah and beyond all the other stuff what um what kind of closing thought would you like to to leave people with this is the bit where you say something really profound just you know okay yeah um then I treat people you want to be well it's not treat people you want to be treated yourself and you know always you know um ask those correct ask questions ask ask ask you're not sure please just ask because I think that anybody who's got any differences I'll talk about their differences and that will educate you so much so that's not very profound but I don't know I think if if everyone listening were to to take that on board and go do it that the world would be you know you'd have made your ding in the universe and don't be afraid to ask any silly questions because I think people you know feel they're gonna either offend or they you know if you do it in the right manner in the right in the right approach I think what is the right manner to ask a kind of potentially offensive question we'll just say you know I'm really interested in your face or your background or and I don't want to offend you just explain to me what is this issue or what is this about your fake you know and and if you do it you do it like that and people won't feel threatened or but if you said why are you doing that or you know and you're doing it in such you know you know look at him or you know if you've got people on edge straight away then they're going to be very defensive but you know every person I've met and spoken to have always been quite open and receptive for me asking questions and whether people have asked them questions I don't know anybody who's sort of said well why are you asking for you know so there might be initially suspicious but then if you explain well look you know I've seen that happening and I've just thought I've had it really interesting and then when you're taking an interest in them they're quite open about it