 How about Pat? She's the book person. I think that we're just passing the buck. Hi. I guess what I would say is sort of independent, you know, mind your own business. Help people if they ask you. That's, that's my few words. That's, that's pretty good. Independent was one of the words I get off the tip of my tongue and I was talking to her by, but when we do, I'll make sure I let her know. We have very strong opinions too. Oh, yes. And the good thing is I met with a gentleman who had, he had sent me an email and he's like, before we started, he's like, things have got to change. And, and so when we, we, we caught up. Well informed. It's not just like, Oh, I saw this here and I'm going to pair it the same thing. It's like, I saw this here. I read this, read that, talk to this person, looked at my life experiences. And here's where I met. Now tell me what you think. And it's like, okay. It's awesome. So is Orca recording this or are you using Orca as a way, as a means to do zoom? I think that they're recording this. That's my impression too. Yeah, I think that they're recording. Okay. It'll be broadcast. Oh, I should have done my hair. I know. Yeah, me too. Well, it is a 605 and one again, thank you all for the opportunity as people sign in, hopefully more. And then again, it's a holiday weekend. So we'll see what happens, but I'm Brian Pete. I'm new here in Montpelier and the new chief taking over for Tony Fakas. And I've had the, had the honor to speak with some folks here earlier this morning and some folks I haven't, but. First and foremost, thank you all very much. And the whole idea behind this is to, to talk to people in the community and find out what it is that the Montpelier police department is doing right and what we, what we have our challenges for. And then also to. To talk to people in the community. If, if, if, if need be, or if, you know, If you so desire to go into the national dialogue about policing and what's going on within the profession and within the institution and where I stand, what, what I believe about it, what I look to do with our department going forward. And so it's just to have a very good, robust dialogue and conversation. And then for me to walk away with ideas. And then we can work on and update our strategic plan. What we can prioritize and what we want to get done. And when we want to get it done and then get that information out to everyone so we can make sure that we hold ourselves accountable to the people we're sworn to serve. So with that. I'd welcome any comments or questions, concerns about policing and, and look forward to a very good dialogue and robust dialogue. So should we just jump in? Sure. Before we start asking questions, when I first tried to join the meeting and asked me for a password. And which it, which I didn't have. And then I tried a different link on the Facebook page that let me in without the password. But I'm just wondering if other people maybe are having trouble getting in and so I just wanted to mention that I don't know if there is anybody out there who could help folks who are. You know, I don't know if there's anybody out there who could help. If there's anybody out there who's struggling with that. Yeah, I had the same thing, Joan. I, I had copied it on my Facebook and it didn't work, but then I went to the police department and it worked. So yeah. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that because I, it's possible that there's a few other folks trying to get in who are running into that. So. Okay. Thank you. At noon, we had the same issue because I used the link that the police department, they said that that wasn't their official site. However, I, although I recognize that in the past, police department has used front porch form to advertise their conversation with a cop. So I thought it was legit. And I guess I would just like to make sure that in the future that they're saying, I mean, both. The same information is given on both that you do continue from porch form. A lot of people use. Read it. So, but I wouldn't go on to the Montpelier police department necessarily. Okay. That was my experience too with front porch form. In fact, I only got on because Rachel called the office and forward did a little link to me. So there was a little networking there, but I think you're right. I think it's a little bit different. But I think it's a little bit different. I think people. Are probably at sea trying to get on. I will definitely make sure we look into that and figure out, because normally if we put the link to it and that link has the password in it, folks should be able to just click on it and open it up. So I'll definitely look at front porch form and. And, and, and, and see how we can make sure that it works. And we'll test it out. Okay. So that's also true chief for the Montpelier police department, Facebook page. Okay. Thank you. I guess this is just a sign of our times that we're having trouble getting into zoom meetings. It's not just. It's everywhere. Yeah. Okay. I would make sure we get that looked at and hopefully fixed by the time we get there. Okay. I'm going to start because since I cheated a little bit by sitting in on the town meeting at noon, I've been thinking about the questions and answers that came up. At that town meeting. And. So I have a national question that I would like to bring. And focus into. I'm wondering that given the general. Under resourcing of social and mental health services. I'm wondering if you've given any thought to, and I know you're, you're like, this is your third day into. Being in Montpelier in this official capacity, but what strategies do you envision to strengthen. These much needed services. I mean, I really did not like the word defund police, but I definitely am supportive of more resources in the community. And I'm not sure where that would come where that money would come from. But anyway, can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. Just speaking for myself and what I've learned so far. You know what, like, like defund, I hear what you're saying. I think that maybe if folks are saying, well, not necessarily defund, but take some of that money and put it elsewhere. Reallocate might be a good idea, a good word to use. And by right, because people need to know what our budget is and where we're putting our money at. So we do plan on putting that out there and showing our fiscal budget, showing what we're, what we've been purchasing and where a majority of it comes from. So in regards to folks who are in the, the counseling business, social workers. From, from what I understand that the Washington mental health. The group is, is very good at what they do. And they have a lot of social workers, but they're also like everyone else are the stretch thin. So in, in looking at that, I think. I have to, to talk to them a little bit more, learn a little bit more. I think it's Mary Moulton, who is, who runs the, we spoke briefly, but we're looking to talk more. But with the direction in regarding to policing. Of course we are, it has been budgeted to have a social worker embedded within the department. Also, you know, to, to bounce back from Barry to Montpelier because a lot of the things that we're seeing is it's folks that are coming one way or the other. So, so it's going to be, I think very, very well useful there and having he or she in, in place would, would allow us to make sure that people aren't slipping through the cracks that if we do come into contact with somebody who was in crisis or we come to somebody, come into contact with say someone who's homeless on the street and they may not have the resources or the means to go pick up their medication just for an example. So how can we connect with a social worker to look at a volunteer structure or to look at even officers trying to figure out where we can go out and how we can, can help them with this particular scene, depending on call volumes, but how we can all contribute our time and what our resources are to help people because that's what ultimately is about with. So everyone's dealing with the, of course, limited budgets, especially with COVID-19 and now seeing the news and how we're not, the curve is going up and not flattening or going down. I'm hoping that, that Vermont stays strong and, and we keep doing what we're all encouraging each other doing and looking out for each other and wearing masks that hopefully our local economy hasn't hurt that much, but one of the, the, the department is, has a, is under team two. So that was a concept, it's kind of a hybrid concept with CIT training, a required mental health training in the state and, and officers involvement. So bringing a level of training to officers, it's not quite full as, as full as CIT and CIT stands for crisis intervention team. And that comes back to the 80s and there was, it's primarily based off the Memphis model. So in the 80s, there was an incident that somebody who was in a mental health crisis was shot by the police department who didn't, who, you know, as the officers came, basically they couldn't recognize what was going on here. So then, then it became a push to train officers in what mental health crisis looks like and how do we de-escalate it and how do we do it without us being hurt and without the people that were called to help being hurt as well. So that's where crisis intervention team or CIT was born and it's been worked on through the time. So as of right now, I have one of these bags of these USB ports. I have a, when I was in Alamogordo, we worked with the Bureau of Justice Assistance, the BJA, PRA Associates, which is a woman owned business here in New York. And, and we developed a pretty much a national standard on how to implement a CIT program. Only in the major cities like a New York or Las Vegas or LA do they have like a dedicated CIT team that can develop the curriculum and teach it. You don't see them, you don't see CIT being offered in smaller agencies or with smaller populations such as ours and, or even Burlington. I don't even think that Burlington has a CIT program. But what we're going to do here in Montpelier is we're going to take that plan and we're going to implement it here and we're going to train our officers as well as keep the team to concept. But I have to talk to Mary and see, just to make sure this is going to be the right fit. But my vision is to have CIT training here, train our officers in CIT training, hope. And there's, there's something else too about that. There's a research because there's some officers are going to be better, more innate in how they're going to, in how they're going to absorb the training and how they're going to absorb the information. Other officers may not be very good at it. So we want to make sure we, the state does have mandatory training. So officers can realize mental health crisis when they see it. But we kind of want those who are going to be really talented and having a knack for it. So we'll train those officers. Not only would we do that, but we'll open that training up to Barry, to Berlin, to Hartford, to Burlington, to every possible place that we can free come on in and we're going to conduct the CIT training so that we can train as many people in Vermont, especially in our local areas we possibly can. The other avenue to that that would go into the funding thing is if we, say if we charged, I don't know, or asked for $20 per officer who came, you know, understanding where their budgets come from, we can take that money and supplement our training budget without having to come back to the city and to the taxpayers and saying, well, we need more training. So we need more money. And that's just how it's got to be. So we need to be creative in how we come up with our solutions to defining new resources and new opportunities. And I'm sorry about that rambling answer, but I hope that that gives you some. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. Doctor, I can't hear you. And there's one social worker between to be used by Montpelier and Barry. Did I understand that? Yes, ma'am. Yes, doctor. That that's that's what's in the budget. So I think it's a one-third a share between Barry, Montpelier and Washington County. That seems very inadequate. I'm a lay person, but. Yeah, just one person. Yeah, for. Yeah, I think, I think it's, it, you know, there is again that opportunity to hopefully to grow the team. But at this point, it's not that this social worker from how I envision it will just be, you know, doing counseling services or directly dealing with and having a clientele, if you will, of each person that we come across, I think it's going to be more or less assisting us and minimizing the crisis. And then pointing people into the right resources and then maintain and tracking those folks to make sure that they're not slipping and falling through the cracks. Hmm. That's my assumption though, I have to, you know, we're in the, in the early planning stages, I think they just posted the position. Maybe a week and a half ago. Would you also be working with the youth services bureau. In Montpelier, because they, I think they also have like folks on staff who are. You know, trained in dealing with mental health crisis and like deal with a lot of the youth who are in challenging situations. I would definitely say yes. There are going to be times in this conversation that I would not know the answer because I'm still trying to learn. But from what I understand from Tony and, and the rest of the officers here that we already do have a very good working relationship. We just want to make sure that we continue that relationship. Again, let me, let me check to make sure, but I believe we do and, but make sure that that, that that relationship stays robust and that, like, for example, if we have, if we're able to keep the SRO position that anytime that we come into contact with youth, whether if we're, whether if we're called to a domestic incident and if while we're there, we notice that there's one of the kiddos is there, that we can make that information known to the school, make that information known to the youth services and, and all just kind of keeping the loop that hey, if, if this student comes in, you know, let's remember that there's something going on on the home front. So it would take a communication between what law enforcement sees and making sure that we all as one group, as one circle, as one team facilitate that flow of information and that we don't safeguard this information. And a lot of other places and jurisdictions and police departments, it's normally like trying to get access to police records or reports. And it's kind of like pulling teeth in certain cases. I don't think that should be the case here because the end goal is to, to keep people as safe as possible. Well, I understood you to say something about reallocation of funding and that that information is going to be available. Yes, what, what, what, what we plan to do. And again, we've had, we've been in discussions with, with my bosses, with Cameron, with, with Bill Frazier. And then we met with the mayor again just yesterday, I believe. And so we're talking about pushing the information out so public, so it's public facing and people can see. And part of that information is going to be looking at the budget and looking at what having diagrams, maps and everything that we possibly can and visual aids to show where a majority of the budgeting that we have. So I think if I'm not mistaken, the, the department's budget is in the area of I think 3.5, 3.8 somewhere to that effect. I would say probably 75 to 80% of that is going to be personnel based costs. And everything else is going to be going towards like current technology equipment, maintaining that type of equipment. If I'm, if I'm correct, but so we would put that information out there. But when we do compare that to, to other locales budgets for public, public safety is, is, is higher than where we're spending. I think, I think here, the department of public works has a higher budget than the, than the police department significantly higher. And when and where will that information be available to the public? We want to put that information out on our website and out on the city's website. And then we're also trying to see how we can, you know, maybe other different creative ways and outlets that we can get that information out, whether through social media or even one of the thoughts I've been kind of having in the background, but trying to see if we can save money on it, but putting out hard copies and, and, and allowing folks who are walking by the station. Hey, here's, here's a pamphlet on, on what we found and, and everything else to that effect. And when will that be available? I'm hoping to have that information out within the next two months. The part of one of the, one of the, the time lags is going to be starting on Monday for the next two weeks. I'll be downstate at the police academy doing certification training and coming back here on the 19th. But it is, we do have a very, we're doing this with a very robust sense of urgency because we understand how important this is to, to the people of our community. And we want to make sure that we're as transparent as possible. Well, what about this, the budget, maybe Cameron can you answer that? When is the city council going to consider the budget for Montpelier? Hi, Brian, do you mind if I jump in? Oh, I'm sorry, you need to. No, it's okay. Hi everyone. For people who don't know, my name is Cameron Niedermeyer. I'm the assistant city manager and just forgive me for my day off appearance. So the, the budget has been approved for fiscal year 21. We have had to make some amendment. So thank you for that question. Yeah. Good to hear. I have a question for Brian. And I mean, I don't even know if it's a question exactly, but just something that I would like to. I just thought I would like to share and maybe you could just think about it and get back to people later. But my older, I have an older child who's 20 and who graduated at Montpelier high two years ago. And at some point during that school year, I can't remember exactly when this was there was a, there was a, somebody on the grounds of the school who was like trying to hold up the bank across the street and ended up over at the school and ended up being shot on the campus. And so my daughter was at school and they had a whole lockdown and this whole like SWAT teams and stuff came in. And I would say that she had, you know, she'd been really involved that whole year with like raising the black lives matter flag and been. And so she was so engaged in educating herself on, on all kinds of things, including, you know, the way the, the, on sort of on a national level, like how police violence plays out. And so she went into, you know, she came into that experience already being very hesitant about, about police and came out of it feeling really like that that confirms all that hesitation. And, and then there was another shooting near the roundabout of Montpelier in this past year. And which happens to be pretty close to where I live. And so, you know, pretty much every day we walk by like a little memorial that's there on the bridge. And so I just feel like there's a lot of young people who I think have a lot of hesitation about the police, both on the national level and right here in Montpelier, even though they may not have personally had a bad experience with the police officer, but those two things, I think affected a lot of youth, you know, like everybody who was at the high school that day was affected by that. And so I would just love to like, I would love like the police here in Montpelier start thinking about like, how do they interact with some of these young people who've grown up in a time when like there's a lot of questioning about what the police are doing. And I think rightfully so. And yet like there may be a time when one of these young people needs to call the police and they might not feel safe doing that. And I certainly know my daughter would like call the police only. I mean, she said I would just never call the police. And that is hard for me to hear because like, I don't call the police very often, but I like to know that that's an option in some certain situations. And anyway, I just think it's something that I would love for you to consider like how, how to like start building a better relationship with some of the young people in our community. And what it might take to like, make them feel more like the police are part of the community instead of just something that they see is hurtful. And I understand like this may not be even be the full reality, but if that's somebody's perspective and all that they've really seen, it's very difficult for them to get past that. And I think for some young people, that is all that they've really seen in their lifetime. This is very good, very good points. And I think that was, I'm immediately thinking about the SRO program, because I think that if we, that now to me is now more than ever is a time for dialogue. Now more than ever is a time that we expose ourselves to each other and we expose ourselves to what we've come to perceive a given person, a given race, a given profession to be, and that we have to be brave and expose ourselves to each other and listen to each other and understand where that comes from. So that's one of the things that scares me most about pulling an SRO from the school, because it's going to withdraw. It's going to kind of play, it's going to move into a narrative that police departments are evil and we're not. And it's going to justify that. And I would say specifically here in Montpelier, what that the Montpelier police department has done an exceptional job with this SRO program, with its community relations to the best of its abilities. And I would just hate it to see it go the wayside of another agency or another department that may not have lived up to the expectations of the department. So I fear that and hope that we're not going to be painted with that broad brush. So I think that having police officers around to talk to people is going to show that we're human. And at the same time that we need to interact with the people that we serve so that we don't become indifferent. What's the instance that happened at the high school? Only unfortunate. And what I understand that situation to have been is there was an individual who had attempted to rob one of the banks and then as they chased him, it winded up playing out behind the high school. And the department spent it as we were, it's an active shooter life situation. So we reached out for additional resources for the state to come help for other local agencies to come help to make sure that it doesn't spill over into the high school. That was our biggest fear at the time. And the officers, we had hostage negotiators. We had other people trying to talk the situation down for over an hour and a half. Out there in the snow out there in the cold. Nobody wanted to do anything. So by unfortunately, our profession is at times of violent one. And it's not, it's, it's scary to anyone who, who's involved in it. It's also scary to the officers. And that's one of the reasons we want to make sure that we have a, a, a, a officer wellness and safety itself. But yeah, it, I think that, you know, we do want to, to not dismiss anyone's experiences, but I, but we want to make sure we continue that dialogue. And, and as far as the sanctity of life for the Montpelier police department and how we look at things, it's, it's, it's, it's a complex, it's a complex situation. So I looked up SRO and Googled it, but I couldn't find it standing room only single occupancy. So could you tell me what SRO means? SRO is a school resource officer. Oh, okay. And, and, and as you're Googling it, there's another, you can look at like a national SR, if you type in national SRO, I think you'll come to a professional organization that talks about national association of school resource officers. And out the pillars, this is pretty much one of the golden standards of the SRO program. And our hopeful SRO, the Diane Matthews has already undergone that 40 hour training block. And that's something that a lot of other, a lot of police agencies don't, don't send their people too. And, but we're able to do it. We try to make sure that our budgets, you know, we try to operate within our budgets to send, because that's expensive. We try to get people to go there to come back. There are time, all the logistics and everything to it, as well as overtime for officers to, to fill the gap that Diane would leave as she's off for training. But it's important to us. And we, we need to make sure there's never a good time to do it, but we need to make sure we do it at all times. But. So what was the SRO's involvement in the shooting that Joan was talking about? Well, at that time, the detective Nisley was there and he was in constant communication with the principal and the superintendent and letting them know how things were playing out to put the school on lockdown. This is what we're, this is what the basic, the, the crux of the situation is, and this is how we're trying to contain it and move it forward. And I would. Sure. I have to say like the way the lockdown itself was handled seemed. Clear. And well organized. So. You know, it wasn't. I'm not bringing this up just to like complain or something, but I just, I'm bringing it more just because I'm really aware of how. Alienating that whole situation was. For the youth there. So, and it's, I, I don't, I don't have a full picture of what happened even that day. I haven't researched it in depth. So I don't have like. That much clarity myself on the ins and outs of it, but I still think it just affects. It affected all those students regardless of what the rights and wrongs of it. I totally hear you. But unfortunately in that situation, it wasn't the department that chose where that ultimately happened. It was the individual that made the decision to go to the bank and then made the decision to, to stay there. And while we would try to minimize. Exposure and risk to other people in that situation, it was something that we, we, we couldn't dictate that situation. It was, it's entirely dictated by the person who, who caused it. And it's unfortunate. Well, one chilling aspect about it is that the person was shot 14 times. I think that scares people. One of, one of the things about a lot of studies on this. And experiences with it is. Typically. In those situations, there's a, there's a tunnel vision effect. And, and, and, and, and heightened heightened awareness, heightened adrenaline, everything to that effect. It's, it's hard to, to tune in or to hear everything else that's going on. So I don't know for sure. I haven't seen the action action, the after action report. I do know that state police investigated and clear the incident, which is, you know, I don't want to make that sound bad or dismissive, but they looked at all different avenues of it. And, but in those situations, when I've been in those situations myself in Chicago, when, when, when there's somebody who's pointing a gun at me. And I hear a shot. And I don't know my first gut instinct is I don't know if I'm being shot at. So most, so it's, there are a lot of studies on out, out there that say that most officers will engage in those types of situations. So it is unfortunate that that happened, but I think that's one of the perils of, of what happens that when, when we're all human and we come into a situation, they didn't know the only thing that we could deal with at that point in time was what we understood the threat to be at that particular point in time and, and move forward from there. I'm sorry, it doesn't sound like much of an answer, but the other thing that I would, would also mention that I had previously spoken about, I'm sorry, there's somebody who's looking at the meeting that it was, was something that's was having like a, in other departments, other locations, departments have what's called a Citizens Academy if you will. And in this academy, the department will show folks who want to come to it. It's, it's, it's, it's a long training about what policies and procedures are, what use of force models are and everything that the department does in its day to day routines, right along looking at, you know, role playing scenarios. And we would also invite members of the public, you know, to, to do these things. And I think it's beneficial because it will allow people in the community who don't have a really close access to what it is that officers do on a day to day basis and what they could be faced with and what they do face. So to see that it's not always as simple as, as a black and white issue, there's a lot of gray in what we do. And it also has the opportunity for us to get the same feedback that, hey, you guys are kind of in the forest among the trees. But as I'm doing this training, I see an opportunity here that we may want to look at. And it's incumbent upon that department to take that idea and see if we can implement and run with it. Anything that any ideas that anyone has that we can, can perform our jobs safely for ourselves and for the people of the city, we're all ears to hear. And that Citizens Academy, if you will, is something that I'm looking to hopefully try to implement as soon as I possibly can. Can you hear me? Yes. I've had this thought that's been in my heart for many years and I composed a letter to the police department years ago and then I was like, oh, it's, you know, but I just want to put it out there to you. So most of the time our police officers are in their cars and I know we have the bicycle officers and that's, you know, people like that. I have long felt it would be great if each officer for one piece of shift a week could take a walk downtown. You know, the pandemic isn't a great time for walking and getting coffee and stuff, but, you know, for officers to actually on foot sort of in a relaxed manner get to know, you know, what's happening on the street, who has that shop and who are those people that often hang out on that corner? You know, just a small thing, but I think in a way it can be a big thing. I definitely understand and that's something that I've been hearing over and over and not just from members of the community, but from the officers within our own department. A lot of them take a lot of extra steps to get out there and talk to members of the community, talk to families, talk to business owners, but minimum staffing keeps them from being able to come out as much as possible. So it's incumbent upon us, myself and my team, my supervision team to find out different ways that we can try to be flexible so we can get out there and allow our officers to get out there to interact with people in the community on a positive basis. The thing that we hate the most is that no officers, the only time that you see me is when something bad happens that you know, shame on me. That should not be the case. We should take every opportunity, every step that we can to be out there in the community and the public and we will make sure that we continue to do that and that we expound upon that. I'm sorry. Richard, you're still muted. I prepped you for that question from Pat. She made sure I knew. She's one of several that made sure I knew. Well, I happen to attend a city council meeting when a member of the public said, I've been suggesting for years that police walk around town and nothing has happened. So I'll, I'll echo that request. I am going to put three stars. And that's like, again, the fifth page of feedback from just from the officers as well as from, from, from, from everyone else. So we will make sure we have that. But there is something I also wanted to bring up. There's also, we've also experienced the opposite. And just being fair that in some neighborhoods, his officers are walking around or it's, they don't get that. And I'm not trying to say, whoa, was us and everything to that effect, but there are some people that don't want us around. There are some people who are saying, why are you in my neighborhood? I prefer you not being my neighborhood. I prefer you go someplace else. So there, there's always, there's always some people who disagree with, with officers being around and, you know, but we want to do what we can to push past that and try to break that barrier and then just try to, try to, try to get out and continue relating to the people that we serve and also have to, to, to clarify something else. When we were, when we were talking about the embedded mental health professional or the social worker, it's not just going to be between Montpelier and Barry. I've been reminded just, hey, actually what it is, it's access to all of Washington County, Washington County mental health services. So, so this is a, this is a person that's going to be doing the work throughout the, throughout the county and using all the county resources, not just in, in our two cities. So something happens and the police officers want to call a social worker. They contact Washington County and Washington County advises them or they send a social worker. How does that work? The current idea, the current philosophy is that the, the social worker will be embedded. So if not primarily again in the areas of Montpelier and and Barry, but again, accessible throughout the county. So it would be, if, if, if something happened, there's a crisis situation, social workers would make sure and we would need to make sure that the situation is safe. And the social for the social worker to come in and do that, do that. So it wouldn't be, they would be riding around with us, if you will, or have an office within our, our respective departments and able to respond at the same time, the officers are able to respond. So they would be riding around with you. Or have, or definitely have access to do that. That's, that's the current, that's the current philosophy and what we're thinking that is a, is a best practice in my previous department. And now I'm a Gordo. We, we took one of our unmarked cars and we handed it over to, we were able to, to dedicate an officer to be a mobile crisis response officer that specifically went on calls that we knew to be mental health related issues in conjunction with that embedded social worker. So they actually responded with the officers as well. So I think it's probably, you know, we haven't worked out the nuts and bolts about it yet, but, but from what I understand, it's going to be responding at the same time other police officers are responding to the situation and then coming in once the scene is, is rendered safe. That they're not in jeopardy of being hurt. And I, I have some thoughts about this as you're figuring out the nuts and bolts of how this is what this is going to look like. I've had several lives and one of them is that I was part of the domestic violence movement very early on. In the 70s and 80s. And early 90s. And the courts would want us as advocates to. Negotiate the terms when we went into court. For restraint. To extend the restraining order. The courts wanted advocates to negotiate the terms of, let's say, visitation. And between the parties and at the time, I don't know what the status is now, but at the time, the philosophy was that we did not want to do that because we didn't want to appear. To be an arm of the court and whatever. However you work this out. I hope that the social worker can. Separate themselves from law enforcement so that people aren't feeling or thinking. You know, that they're being heavily handed by. You know, not only the police, but also social services or whatever. I mean, the last thing we want is for them to feel. Like no one is listening to them, you know, or, you know, whatever they're thinking or feeling. So. I'm sure you might have, I'm sure you probably thinking about this, but I just wanted to also put it out there that that has been my experience past experience. That we need to be mindful of that when we hire people. To come on and help. Or to provide, you know, rounded services. That, that, that is a very, very good point. And because if, if there is going to be that perception of officers, we want to make sure that doesn't bleed over to somebody who, somebody who is. Who is there to, to make sure they, that the folks have access to the resources that are going to help. So that is extremely strong point. And that is something that I'm going to make sure I definitely take back to the rest of the team to make sure we incorporate and do that right. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Go ahead, please. I don't know if I missed this at the beginning of the conversation. Just. Could you say a few words about how it is for your family settling into. Your new community. It is, it has been a gem. As a matter of fact, my wife Natalie's and my daughter Gabriella are sitting here in the office with me. And we have. We have absolutely fell in love. And we really. Feel fortunate and blessed. To be here in part of this community. There's a lot of things. That this city has done right. And it's in a, I think it's in an unapologetic pursuit of doing everything is possible. To do right by everybody. And it's intoxicating. We absolutely love it. I'm sorry. Sorry. Joan. If I may, may I, may I call you, Joan? Yes. Go for it. I just wanted to make sure, I mean, I didn't want to come off crass or, or anything else. I wanted to know if, if, if I hit any of the things or answered any of the things you may have feeling or maybe if I said something that. Kind of like, you know, upset. Upset you or something that you didn't, didn't disagree with. I want to make sure that, that we can continue that, that type of dollar because that is scary. That that's an absolutely scary situation. So I want to make sure I don't come across as impartial or discounting of it. Well, yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I think I'm not actually looking for any. Specific response right in this moment. I think it's more. I just wanted to. Share this experience that I've somewhat participated in. It's not my own personal experience. That is something that I've seen happen and. Just ask you to consider. As you're getting to know my pillar, like. You know, there's a lot of people who are never going to show up for a gathering like this and like how do you. You know, how do we as a community build relationships. Around these situations. That happened, you know, and they're, they're very real. So, and I, and then, you know, I mean. This is unfolding all across the entire country too. And many communities are dealing with this in much worse ways than Montpelier. But I feel like we have our own version of it here. And I just wanted to like. More just ask that you think about it and, and think about getting to know. Our young people in some way or another. Do you mind if I interject? Yes, please. I just, I think that another work that the city is doing right now, that I think would be of interest to a lot of people in these kind of conversations is we do have a social and economic justice committee who's been very active. They just approved to reach out to a vendor. Who's going to help us with that outreach. So they're looking for, an equity specialist who can help us. I think get to Jones point. A lot of people don't want to be participatory in government conversations or not going to show up. To government hosted anything. And, and those are some of the people that are most important for us as a city to communicate with. And we know that. And we know as part of the system, it's almost impossible for us to get to Jones point. So we're, we're really excited about bringing on this consultant who can help us. Sort of reach the people that we know we can't reach on our own. And I think that'll have a lot to bearing in Brian's position, because I think, you know, those people will have opinions on the police that we haven't been able to hear. And that's, again, I think we, we sort of mentioned that the city, so we're just really excited and thank you for, for mentioning that. Because I think you're right. A lot of people don't want to show up to these things. And how, how do we make sure that their voices are heard as well? So thank you. And if I can piggyback off to what Cameron said, the other thing is I want to make sure that while, while I have my opinions, I consider myself a very flexible person and only time will tell. And I hope to earn that trust, but I want to make sure that, that, that people who, you know, somebody may say, I'm not going to come. I'm not going to sign on to that because he, he or she is not going to listen to what I have to say anyway, and they're not going to value that. And that's the exact opposite of, of what I want to accomplish. And, and unfortunately, a lot of us have had to do that. And that's the exact opposite of what I want to accomplish. And unfortunately, a lot of us have had past experiences in, in dealing with people who are in positions of power, quote unquote, that have an, that have an obligation to listen to the people that they serve and they don't do it. And I am not one of those people. I'm one of those people who comes in and says, I know what it feels like. I know what I remember what it feels like. I know what it feels like in certain places, in certain times I still experience it. And I'll be damned if I allow somebody else to have that same feeling. So I think it is incumbent upon me to listen to what everybody has to say in areas that we do disagree. We talk about it because the only way any of us learns is to, to listen to what somebody else says honestly and absorb it and then, then take it to heart and look at where we as individuals, where I as an individual, what I have to play in it in the whole part. Apropos of distrust of the police, I would suggest, and I think that tenor of this conversation says the same thing. It's not only young people who were part of that high school incident, but I think there is almost widespread distrust of the police, but I'm generalizing. I don't know. In any case, one contributing factor was the incident that happened on the round about it, that I'm sure you know about and have reviewed. It seemed to most people to be a clear mental health question and the person was shot dead. So would you mind talking to us about that? Sure. I, I, um, in, in, in my experiences, um, you never know what that situation becomes. I'm, I'm drawn back to, uh, to an incident that happened in Chicago where there was an officer who, um, was called to, to deal with a disturbance on one of the buses. And that officer and knew as soon as he got there, they knew by based on description of the person who was causing the disturbance, they knew who it was. And this is somebody that they have dealt with time and time and time. And that that's a word that that also kind of it's like, you know, was it necessary because how is it? If we're always responding to this calls, how is it that this person's never gotten that full amount of treatment? How are they still slipping through the cracks? Why are we still answering these calls of service all the time? Um, so that identifies another weakness within, within the system, the first responder system, but this officer had known this woman, um, for a long time and he came in. It was a man. Wasn't it? I'm sorry. It was a man. Oh, I'm sorry. You're talking about. Yeah. It was a woman that someone had called the disturbance on. And no, it's okay. She was in a mental health crisis and the officer, he was a man. He came on. He tried to de-escalate the situation. And just when he thought he did, and he's like, well, come on and let's, let's go ahead and come off the bus. She actually took the revolver out of his. Holds her and shot him in the back of the head. And this was somebody that he'd known and dealt with for a long, long time and actually developed a, like a kind of a trustful relationship. And it's unfortunate because she was in crisis. And, um, and that's where in the city of Chicago, they went from having just a flat, um, holster to an actual, what's called a double retention or a triple retention holster. Um, but those situations also play out. So when, when we do respond to, um, to dangerous situations, we're not sure what we're getting. And we're trying to assess in a moment's notice, uh, in the dark, in this situation, in the dark, not knowing what else is going on, only two officers available, no other backup, no one to, to keep traffic from crossing in between, uh, being cognizant of what's behind that person. And if that person, if that is a real weapon, what's behind me, if they shoot, who are they going to shoot? Who are they going to hit? So there are a lot of, there are a lot of things to look at. And it's a scary situation. I know for a fact, those two officers, um, it was a very, very tense situation. It's something that they're dealing with still now and something that families are dealing with now. And, um, and I'm not trying to minimize, um, I believe was, I'm not trying to minimize what happened, but I'm trying to say that in situations like that, it's something that's incumbent upon me to try to avoid because no one wins in that situation. Everyone's hurt. The community, the person who shot the officers who have to do the shooting. So it's my responsibility to do everything I can to give them the tools they need to hopefully preserve life, um, in those situations. So, um, I don't want it to be, you know, I can kind of transition over to tasers. I don't want it to be that the only thing that officers have to de-escalate a situation is a gun, um, O.C. chemical spray and a hunk of steel, which is the ASP, which is that, um, the baton. Those are the only things that officers right now in the Montpelier police department have to de-escalate a situation. That's it. Other than that, a hands-on fight. So, you know, we, it's incumbent upon us to try to figure out what tools are out there, what are the best tools to use, and how do we use those tools responsibly? Um, so it's, uh, it keeps me up. A lot. Trying to, trying to figure this out and, um, I think that's, uh, so I, yeah, I am very sorry that that had to happen. I'm sorry for everyone who had to be involved in that. May I ask a question of, of you so I can get some knowledge and I don't want to, please don't take it as an, in a defensive way, but I'm trying to figure something out. Um, the, when, when I researched Montpelier, um, when I was applying for the job and, and when I was researching it back in this, while I was in Chicago, um, several years ago, everyone seemed to be very positive and supportive of the community and less of the department itself and less suspicious. And, and I understand the two, um, shootings that have happened that were officer involved shootings, but, um, I'm trying to figure out that there seems to be a lot of, um, there's a lot of distrust right now. It feels like a lot of distrust, you know, that my officers are, are in my one-on-one interviews are saying to me over and over, I feel like I've done everything I possibly could to, to work with people and to be happy with people. Now, all of a sudden it feels like everybody hates me and, and I'm trying to figure out, um, if you can, can help me to understand, um, how this, how this dynamic unfolded, um, because a lot of, a lot of officers are saying, I wasn't there. I wasn't the one that was in Minneapolis, but I'm, I'm being hit with that brush. And, and the community seemed very supportive of the department, but now it seems that it's, it's rightfully so, very critical. To me, I look at it as it's, it's something that happened and said, Hey, if that happened over here, what it's time for me to look at my focus and make sure that my department doesn't do that, but I'm still trying to try to get my hands around it. And, um, I'm looking for some, some insight and some, um, some, some advice and some guidance here. If you all wouldn't mind sharing with me. Well, I don't mean to sound like a sore head. And this is a minor point, but this morning in your conversation where you were talking about how polite the police department is. I was, this is trivial, but, um, there were all the, I was on the corner of a state in Maine and there are all these chickens running around loose. And so there was a cruiser stopped. There were no, there was no traffic. The cruiser was stopped at the light. And I approached the officer and I spoke through his window. You know, and I said, what have, have you caught the chickens? And he said, I'm not going to give you a ticket for J walking. So that was really rude. And, you know, it wasn't, it's a minor point, but they're not always polite. And, you know, um, and I've had, you know, I'm not a renegade. Um, the, I've had, I have, you know, tangentially I've had experiences with the police where they have come and performed social service functions. And I think that's a waste. I mean, I think redistribution needs to occur because, you know, the police shouldn't necessarily have to spend their time. Um, redirecting patients or, you know, people who are living at home who've taken the wrong medication and so forth. But, you know, I just, I thought of that incident this morning when you were saying, this is Montpelier polite department. Not always. No, not always yet. But that, that is, I think that was, um, um, it's like within the culture of within a very macho culture. Um, we're almost in some cases that it sounds like a kind of like looked at as a, as a, is a different organism all entirely because, um, that, that we expect our officers to, to do their best to, to, to treat everybody, no matter what they're feeling or dealing with at that time. Um, with respect, no matter what, you know, what, uh, what calls, and I don't want to make excuses, uh, for that. And that shouldn't have happened. And I'm sorry that happened. Um, but we're trying to figure out ways to help officers. You know, like one of the six pillars that I had mentioned before was, um, officer wellness and safety. So if an officer went to, uh, uh, a domestic situation in which that maybe a child was hurt. Um, and they're angry about that. How do we give them the tools to step back because we can't say, okay, you can get to go take an hour break to try to get yourself together. It's like, no, we, the call is over with, we need you back on the clock to answer the next call. So how can we figure out different ways to, to help them process through what they're feeling and experiencing without taking it off on, uh, uh, taking it out on the person that they're next going to come in contact with. So that's one of the challenges that we're trying to get, uh, get through. And that's, again, that's incumbent upon me to, to try to figure out what resources I can get to those officers. But I apologize that that situation happened. It was very rude, but I feel compelled to note that I was involved in another chicken incident with a neighbor where the chickens kept escaping and I kept trying to apprehend them. And I didn't call the police, but oh, he happened along, um, the street and I said, you know, I don't know who these, you know, so he helped, he got stuck helping, you know, capturing the chickens and they kept, you know, we kept to return them to the coop and then they kept escaping. So, you know, that's the converse. I think it was very helpful there. And, you know, the poor thing, he was just driving by and I drew him into this other chicken incident. To me, that's a battery recharge. I think it's, I think it's great. I'd love to have been out there. There was, there was one time when I was in Alamogordo, my, my, my, one of like my third day on the job. Actually, you know, it was my first day because I had to go qualify. So, I went to one area to qualify on something and as I'm coming back, there's a, there's a family of quails coming across the road. And, uh, so we got out the car and we're trying to help the quails get through. Me and this, this older captain and, you know, and we're all in uniform and everything. And then by the time I got back to the station, I had several people coming up to me. Why are you blocking traffic and messing around with ducks? Why are you chasing ducks around? I was like, but I thought it was great. Um, there, there was something that, uh, that I did want to mention that you had, you have a very good point, um, that police shouldn't have to spend their time redirecting community resources and, uh, and looking at those allocations of funding. It's, um, that's something that a lot of, uh, police chiefs have long been advocating that we shouldn't be doing. Unfortunately, there's a lot of interdependency. So if, if in these calls, it's not just looking at the police department's funds or policies. It's also looking at the policies of other institutions. So if, if one were to call, um, a social service agency and say, Hey, I have, this is going on. My family members in crisis. I need help. Um, I'm not sure what resources they have. I'm not sure if they have policies in place that they can come out to respond. But one of the other things that they're probably going to say is that if it is a, if it is a potentially dangerous situation, they're going to, it's part of their policies to call us in to come try to deescalate the situation in the first place. So even if we try to avoid it, what are the policies of the other institutions that are out there? And, um, I think that they need to be part of this dialogue. I'm not trying to brush the responsibility on them too, but it's like they should be part of this dialogue. And I know Mary's up to the task. I know the county's up to the task, but we all together can figure out different ways and how we can respond to these types of crisis instance, because again, we're all entered in their twine and responding to first, uh, first aid in mental health crisis situations. I'd like to go back and, um, to your question, Brian, and, uh, I don't have an answer, um, but I certainly can speak to my experience and why I'm feeling the way I'm feeling now about law enforcement, other than saying going through the 60s, it wasn't always a positive experience dealing with law enforcement, but that's, that's, that's been a year. That's enough. Knowing what I heard my parents' horror stories when they were dealing with it, trust me. So I'd like to bring it closer to where we are right now. And, you know, when people would say, uh, would talk about George Floyd and how he was killed and I'd say he wasn't killed. He was murdered. I mean, I really felt it was important. I don't, you know, I may be splitting hairs, but to me, we all witnessed a murder and it was real. It was no longer the surreal thing that you are watching on TV. And although, you know, you'd hear these stories, uh, to actually witness a murder really heightened on top of everything else that's, you know, we're right, it's a perfect storm, right? With COVID and, and everything else. So between that and also the years of feeling like people have been expressing injustice for decades. And it seems like very little has been accomplished. And I'm at the point, you know, at first I'd get into the mode, well, nothing's going to change anyway. It never does. But now I'm angry about it. And, uh, so I think that that's maybe what you may be hearing. You certainly would be hearing that from me, that that's what I'm experiencing is my anger. And it's not necessarily at any one person. I think it's just at the system that has not been willing, uh, to really look at itself and make the necessary changes. And I'm still glad to see young people. I kind of see myself in them now. To be able to get on board. And I keep, and now that I'm much older, I keep saying, don't let up until you get what you want. Just don't say, oh, they've hurt us. My feeling is that's not enough. You keep pushing until you get what you want. Because I feel like whenever I step back and said, oh, they've hurt us, we're going to see this change, it didn't happen. And so at least for myself, that may be what you're hearing is, is that emotion more than anything else? Well, and to follow up on what Rachel's saying, it wasn't only George Floyd. Every day there's a new revelation and some atrocity that the police have either covered up or the criminal justice system has brought. You know, it's, it's compounded. And, you know, last weekend, I'm a lesbian. And last year in New York, I marched with the Queer Liberation March. This year, it became the Queer Liberation March in support of Black Lives Matter. So people of color let it, were all the speakers. And at the end of the time, apparently one marcher graffitied a police car. And the police just pepper sprayed all the marchers. And it was caught on tape. I watched it. I cried. And so it's certainly in the national ethos to be distrustful of the police. And I was angry like Rachel is. I was infuriated by that. You know, here's the fifth, it was really the 50th anniversary of Stonewall because the march happened, you know, the first march was a year later. And this is what happens. Four people were arrested. They were kept overnight in this COVID country. So, and Montelior is part of it. I mean, you know, it's not like we're this isolated as kind of island because I, you know, we're part of the United States and it's, you know, racism is so endemic everywhere. Hi, Brian, I had a comment too on your question. And I, I mean, I have to say, like, I don't actually have very much for stand experience of interacting with the police in Montelior. You know, as a white person who lives in a middle class neighborhood, like I just, the police are rarely, rarely in my neighborhood. And I don't have calls. I don't have reasons to call on them or anything. And so I don't, I don't have any personally, I don't have bad experiences either. But a few weeks ago, the police actually came to my house and I'm not going to describe the whole situation here or community because it's too complicated. And I don't want to share all the personal details about this either. But there was a young person who had done something really more as a statement of concern about police violence. And it ended up with the police coming to my house to talk to this person. And, and it all got sorted out. You know, nothing really much happened. But I felt like the way that the police officer handled the situation. Like, it was clear to all, all of us involved that this, this incident was really much more of a statement of what's going on at a national level than a specific, you know, incident involving, you know, somebody else's property. And, and like this kind of there's all kinds of things happening on a national level with people like taking down statues and different things like that. So there's a lot of like protest things happening. And I just felt like the officer who came by my house didn't really have much ability to like take the step back and see the big picture. And, and really like felt like he was trying to like lecture us on the details of the situation and not and I mean obviously he needed to do his job and be like, okay, this is what you did. It was wrong. And this is the consequence. And like, I'm fine that he had to like lay that kind of thing out. But I felt like he could have done a better job like putting it in the context of the bigger picture what's happening on a national level. And rather than just kind of going into lecture mode about the details of what had happened, that I feel like just wasn't very helpful in that moment. So that's just a concrete example of like an officer in Montpelier doing something that was like, it wasn't like bad or terribly wrong, but it just wasn't like in tune with the times in my mind. So I hope that's helpful. Okay. I think I think I have an understanding of what you're saying. That it sounds to me like what I'm hearing that it's the anger is being focused at a representative of an as representative of an institution that there's so much anger at the institution that there's going to be a focus of the dissatisfaction. That that's where it's coming from. Am I close or I think that can be part of it. It's certainly what is what I was expressing. Okay. So then then if I could then I guess my next question is how can what can the Montpelier Police Department do to to show, you know, our goal was to be a national example of mutual respect and dignity and sanctity of life. And we're going to stumble along the way, but what what can we do to to separate ourselves from an institution which rightfully so has been historically oppressive to people of color to people who are poor to people who don't fit in that social norm. And what can we do? How can we get out there to try to help people who are. Who are angry and afraid of us. I'm trying to I've had to deal with that myself from coming from a very personal level. I'm trying to I need I would would love for some guidance and some help of what what our department can do to make sure we so that you know how do we become is it. I think I'm very grateful that I'm that I'm here with you now. To try to figure it out. But how do we how do we how do we do it? Have you read a scene or heard of the book called my grandmother's hands. I'm sorry. I'm reading it now. We're just talking about it. Okay. It's called my grandmother's hands. And it's a book about racialized trauma. Author of it. He he works with police departments. This. Issues. I think his work is really, really interesting. And I would love to see our police department take it out and subway or another. But I don't know. I'll definitely take a look at it. I don't know what it is. I know my life experiences and dealing with police departments and dealing with racism. And they're they're significant. But I don't know the. I know the lessons I've learned and how I want to try to push on and how I want to try to spread that message through. Through what it is I do and through the department that I'm a part of. I think it's really interesting to see how a lot of the violence that we. See against people of color in this country comes out of this like long history of trauma. And that. The way. You know, you just talked about like the. That we live in a culture that like. We live in a culture that is like. The standard by which everything else is judged and that. We look on black bodies is somehow. More disposable. And that this like affects. Our whole culture and the way the policing is in our culture. And that. Until we address some of this underlying trauma. In ourselves and in our police departments that we're not going to ever really. We're not going to be able to do. The type of education that we're in. So you know, he says, you know, it's helpful to change policies. And helpful to change procedures and new training, but this underlying trauma really affects. Everything. That happens. And he just lays it out really clearly. And he's a trauma specialist. So it's really, I think it's really interesting. His approach and. That makes it really, really interesting. The moment where things are happening. So, if we look at it, if we take a hard look at the police department. Is that going to solve everything? What else do we need to look at? And what other changes do we need to make? And how can the mob killer police department be part of that change? Yeah. I think it's time for us to examine all of our institutions. And how we function. and how each institution supports the oppression of people. And you know, my view already about school resource officers, I shared that this morning. Go ahead, Cameron. Oh, it's just gonna, first I wanna acknowledge and thank everyone for sharing these. I think this time of this sharing can be very hard sometimes. And I just wanna thank everyone for being very honest with us because there's no growth without honesty. And I just really appreciate that from all of you. I was just also gonna say, you know, I'm not trying to rest my hat on this one solution, but we're very excited to work with an equity consultant because we want that for our whole organization. Organizationally, we wanna see what we're doing unintentionally that worsens our relationship or we know, call out what we're doing well and try to spread that throughout our organization. So, you know, this is ongoing work that we've, you know, can't let go of. And we appreciate having residents that are, you know, telling us what they want and what they changes they wanna see. So thank you. Oops, I'm sorry, go ahead, Pat. So I don't have an answer to your question, Brian, about, you know, maybe feelings that aren't totally positive about our police department. And I think, you know, I agree that it's sort of a global, you know, that global residual distrust. But I guess I would like to counter and say there was a, there were some young people who organized a demonstration before COVID. They took over the intersection of state in Maine, some very young people, it was about climate action. And I was very impressed with the Mobility Police Department for sort of allowing it, even though it stopped traffic, they didn't have a permit, you know, and I felt that in that instance, the police did well allowing them to have their free speech but also encouraging them to, you know, be respectful. And I also attended the very large Black Lives Matter rally a few weeks ago, and I was again impressed with the Mobility Police Department for being present, but, you know, allowing it to be peaceful and, you know, a major expression of people's heart. So. Thank you, thank you. And Rachel, you were going to say something? I was just going to say that I think it's, you know, as individuals, I worry that sometimes we get reductive in our way of thinking that we want something simple. We want something quick. And the reality is, is I think that it's going to take a time, which we all know. I'm not saying anything none of us already know. It's going to take a while. I mean, you know, it's like anything, as you were saying earlier, you know, we all need to earn everyone's trust, you know, and actions are the best way to either gives us a passageway for that to happen or, you know, or it can also make us more distrustful. So, I'd like to be hopeful. And I think your timing to come to Montpelier is a good one. At first I thought, oh my God, what a horrible time to start a new position. But I also think it's a very good time to start a new position. Thank you. And, you know, from a very personal standpoint, I'd like to thank you all, first and foremost for having this dialogue, for your honesty, and for actually demanding that our government do what we're supposed to do and treat people with respect because of the things that you guys are doing now, my daughter's going to be okay. She'll have her chances are going to be okay. And so I'm grateful for that. And as an officer with the Montpelier Police Department, I appreciate the candid feedback. I appreciate the ideas and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to continue to hold us accountable to what it is that we need to be doing out there and I honestly sincerely mean that. So thank you very much. I really appreciate the time and everything in our discussion. I'm really grateful for it. Thank you. Thank you. It's home. But unless there's anything else, I think we've hit the 732 mark and we'll work on trying to clear out those bugs that are on the front porch form. And hopefully when folks click on that link that it'll come up right in without having to work on a password. So again, thank you all so much and enjoy your 4th of July weekend. Thank you. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.