 So, hello, everyone. Welcome to a deep adaptation Q&A with me, Jim Bendell. I was looking and looking at my YouTube channel and realized this is the 35th we've done. And I find them a delight. It's wonderful to have an hour together to actually explore various aspects of this agenda. Today we have the Reverend Lauren Van Ham, who I was delighted to meet a few months ago on the course that Katie and I teach and discover the amazing work that she's doing within faith based organizations, particularly the interfaith space on societal disruption and collapse. Lauren is an ordained interfaith minister. She served as a hospital chaplain for nine years focusing on psychiatry, palliative care and bereavement support. She later worked with a consulting firm on employee engagement programs on sustainability issues. In a decade, Lauren was dean of the Chaplaincy Institute, an interfaith seminary based in California. Lauren is a spiritual director and guest faculty for several schools now in California and she currently serves as the climate action coordinator for the United Nations Initiative, which is a global interfaith grassroots organization. I love that phrase, a global interfaith grassroots organization. Lauren, thank you very much for joining us today. Thank you, Jim. It is such a privilege to be here. I asked, I said a few things about you there, but I think where I'd like to start just so we understand a bit more about the space that you work within. Could you say a little bit about the URI that I just mentioned and what you do there just so we have that context before diving deeper. Absolutely. I will talk about that and just before I want to offer a grounding for us. Absolutely. So, when I am meeting with my spiritual direction clients. I begin by lighting a candle. And the light is to remind us that there are more than two of us in the conversation. Now, certainly in our call today, we know that there are more than two of us but if it were just a one on one conversation, the light would remind us that we are connected to something far greater than ourselves. We might call it life, we might call it love, we might call it God, we might call it mystery. I often call it reverence, which maybe we'll talk more about later. And this light also is useful for us as we think about what cannot be seen because it is in the shadow. And that feels really important for the conversation that we're having today. The shadow is often scary to us because it's dark and we can't see. But the light helps us look at the shadow and the shadow always has nourishment. It is the womb, it is fecund and it can be our friend. So that's what this light represents for us tonight. Thank you. Well, that's a better way than talking shop, but let's do a bit of shop. So what do you do. So I serve as the climate action coordinator for the United Religions initiative and as you have said, you are I is probably the largest interfaith grassroots organization. It's comprised of cooperation circles. These are groups that can be eight people or 200 people. These groups are coming together across religious beliefs or indigenous knowledge and bringing grassroots ingenuity to solve issues in their area. Their area meaning where they live in their locality. And as climate action coordinator, I am often working with them on finding each other. So they may be doing very good earth restoration acts where they are, but they need some mentoring or they need to know who else is doing something similar so that that action can grow and spread. And so this work is about that. And you. How long have you been in this role. Since 2020. Okay. And were you. Were you exposed to some of the worst bad to worst case scenarios and analysis of the environmental situation before then or is this something more recent. I've been doing work that I call eco chaplaincy since about 2007, and probably like many of us. I was doing a lot of informing cheerleading, trying to create action. And it. It was as though the louder I sounded the alarm, the less imaginative the response. And so to be in this space. Where we are talking about adaptation or collapse or societal breakdown for me. It was like a relief to really identify an elephant in the room instead of continuing to fight for something that just was falling on deaf ears. So how long have you been talking about the environmental situation in particular as something that is, or will disrupt increasingly in the lives of the people in the faith organizations or the cooperation circles in the community. Like, has that, have you done that for years or because you said you've obviously done eco chaplaincy for years and got some frustration there in that time. How long have you been talking about, oh no this is actually going to destabilize and disrupt the lives of, well, all of us to some degree. I started to become more courageous about talking in that way. Around 2019. It still can feel very provocative, especially when I'm speaking with people who live in a really different socio economic system than I. I know that in the Western world, I have lived in a place that is causing a great deal of the problem. And of course, some of the cooperation circles that I work with are living in a very different set of circumstances. And so it, it invites some nuance into how we talk about it, but more and more, I think people are keen to talk about this. That's really intriguing because it would be a very different conversation I suppose in places where we've got where we were where it's currently mainly about grief and anxiety about the future or about others. Rather than actual coping right now with the direct disruptions. That's right. Is there opportunity for dialogue across those differences within within the URA or other contexts. There is. I think there's, this is where I would say the reconciliation are of the deep adaptation framework is incredibly useful to be able to have caring conversations about discrepancies and injury or harm. And what might we be doing to mend where we can to provide care where we can. It's really messy and necessary. And these cooperation circles. They are explicitly faith based. Right. Well, they are, and there is a very large group of indigenous voices at the United Religions initiative as well. So, they, they might not identify their belief system as religious right but they're bringing a spirituality or a Cosmo vision as they often call it into the conversation. I see. And that's do you find that more people are opening up to that and what and seeing the validity and power in those Cosmo visions by outside of those communities to what we do when we have indigenous voices or actual indigenous teachers in our conversations with cooperation circles. Attendance is high. People are hungry for feeling connected to these earth centered conversations and spaces. I think that hunger is because of the lack. Absolutely. How would you describe that lack. I think that many of us are starving for connection to the living system and when I say that I mean a life cycle, a cycle that holds us in birth death and rebirth. It's regenerative. It's absolutely present in birth all around us. But we have fallen. We, we believe that we have fallen out of relationship with it. I don't know that that is always true. Some of us have chosen to not be in relationship with it. Some of us have chosen ourselves to believe that we can't be in connection with it, but that belonging, I believe is always there for us. Yes, it's, it's a we externalize when actually the, the separation is and the denial is part of who we are inside ourselves as an expression of nature, you know, so it's self harming as much as harming. Or nature. So I'm interested in if things are going to get really tough for more people, they're really tough already and they have been for centuries for for many people. Because of the systems. The economic industrial and so on that have added to or cause the the predicament we're in, but I'm interested in whether religions or we can use the term faith based organizations or belief systems that are related to all that the extent to which they're going to potentially help reduce harm. And also perhaps find some meaning and even joy within this situation. Or the opposite. Because I've been the last few years I've studied psychology. It's really interesting to see how people were reacting very differently to some of the bad to worst case scenarios around climate. And I discovered that what psychologists call worldview defense so that when you're anxious that you can double down on your identity and your worldview that gives you a sense of place a sense of solidity in a changing world in a scary world. That is often equated with then effectively, you know, a hardening and numbing a bit more bigotry and that sort of stuff it's it's seen in that way, rather than an opening of the heart and mind, and therefore not correlated with more compassion, more solidarity. So I'm interested in, I think probably faith based organizations and faith based leaders faith leaders have a role to play. And I'm not sure whether that's just wishful thinking. I have a sense of whether faith based organizations are going to have a significant already have a significant role, as we, as we move into a more disrupted era and more instances of societal collapse. Yeah. So we really write on to name that there can be like this digging in of one's heels in in terms of defending the identity right and we can all share stories of a more fundamentalist expression of a religious tradition that does that. It's really easy for us to feel fearful and concern about that being the case as the climate crisis worsens the space where I feel much more curious and optimistic would be in this interfaith. Because the religions are very interested in learning together. They're very interested in kind of coming around the campfire as it were, and saying, How do you work with this or this is what our teaching is on this topic how about you. That level of interest and cooperation, of course, makes things possible in how we respond when crisis hits. Yeah, I am also very drawn to the openness and curiosity and almost the sense of knowing that the divine the spiritual is mysterious and therefore all of our ways of describing it writing it down and preaching about it will be limited. And all of our practices for bringing us to a certain state of consciousness will work for some people not others will you know and so let's talk about it as experiment I'm very drawn to that which I see that in in those, even if they're very very grounded in their own particular faith are very comfortable about exploring and comparing and integrating with others. Rather than needing to condemn in order to somehow defend and secure their own place in the world. So yes, I'm very drawn to that. Indeed. I just want to tell you though about like there's a more and more conversations I'm having with with people in the Christian faith but different kinds of different denominations. We talk about the state of the world, and I'm hearing very very different responses. One person would tell me, oh I'm completely fine with what you're talking about Jim my faith as a Christian we anticipate the end of the world and the end times and that's totally fine that just makes me feel more confident about my faith and my choices. For example, another person had to stop working with me because he thought his faith was that that he should actually maintain a sense of hope understood in terms of a material hope for humanity on earth. And that was his particular interpretation things and therefore, and having a faith based response to anticipated disruption and regress materially for humanity on earth just didn't fit. And then I now start hearing of other people saying that, you know, we're going to, we're going on the one hand we're going to have a rapture on the other hand we're going to have a new earth created and and it's all gets very confusing and I at the moment I haven't created time in my life to study where all this stuff is coming from. So as you're the expert can you just solve it. All these different stories I'm hearing. Well, I mean this idea of hope. Let's, let's start with that one because, certainly, religions are supposed to and their very nature, provide us a sense of salvation. They're helping us solve a lived experience problem. And there is hope in having that solution. And so, who I think about many of my friends and colleagues practicing in a Christian tradition, who absolutely want to see light at the end of this panel. And I think it takes a mature faith and spiritual practice to consider that there are different ways of defining hope. And that, I mean, oftentimes, you know, Joanna Macy is talking about active hope you have had conversations where we explore radical hope, this idea of when all hope is lost, what is still there. And that is a very important theological question. I think it's where we really it gets gritty in there and a weekly visit to Sunday school or to Torah school or to the mosque isn't going to be enough for us to really hang out in that space, which is why I am feeling so adamant that faith leaders need to be working with this working with an invitation to consider what adaptation actually means and what it implies. I also really spoke to what I mentioned earlier as the more fundamentalist expression that the rapture comes, and I, I can't speak to concretely about that but what I, what I would offer as a counter is that religion literally means to bind oneself again to again, ligare to bind read do it again. So, as a, as a person who is practicing in a religious tradition. What do I want to be binding myself to again and again and again do I want to wed myself to empire, and this idea that there is something greater somewhere else. Maybe. But do I also want to consider binding myself to creation to earth, the idea that that heaven is here in sangha and community and congregation, and that we could be tending this life story right here. That's, that's an invitation for us. Yes. And what I'm hearing from you there is, is how heart of how how heart led or heart centered is any of our discussion and use and retelling of stories about faith or stories about the current moment so it's, it's like, I'm suspicious of any of any of any story which is just helping people push things away not worry and just continue as they as they are. The interest is that the how faith leaders can help their congregations and others think through well, okay, things really might be getting difficult for humanity. How do I embrace these times and other people and nature. You've mentioned that more fully in response. Rather than just sort of have an exit from worrying about this because of a particular story of things so I'm, I'm interested in that I just want to say to those you who are with us on this on this call that if you do have a question for Lauren Van Ham, please send it to Katie. And then I will be able to come to you in a few minutes. So please do have a think and don't be shy please do to send those those now. So yeah, I, I'm interested in. It was great for you to talk about religion, the reunion the and, and that it's an invitation there to think about how are we reconnecting and also remembering our innate existing connection. What's in the past or just corresponded in the past about the notion of apocalypse, which again if we're talking about how religions are talking about the environmental predicament is a, is a concept that's there. And I think perhaps there's a, it's almost like there's a tendency to go fully catastrophic and fully apocalyptic in the, in the sense of it meaning that, oh well, if we don't have modern industrial consumer society we don't have capitalism. We don't have this old story of continual material progress. Then we just have the end of the world. We just have human extinction we have all that and then there seems to be this. We're just going to go to there. Some people say that might be to do with the apocalyptic apocalyptic imaginary in many of our cultures. What are your thoughts on that how can you sort of help people unpack the apocalypse to actually not just sort of shut down and actually to open up and be present to whatever's coming. Yeah. I really underline what you've said Jim about this Hollywood notion of what apocalypse looks like. And again, if we just look at the etymology. If the apocalypse isn't the end of the world, it's pulling back the veil to see what's coming next. And this is maybe what I meant in our opening today when I was inviting us to think about holding the light to what is in the shadow. In, in a time of societal breakdown and a time of climate collapse. Can we lean in. Can we lift the veil. Can we shine a light in the dark to see what is coming next, because an empire, certainly isn't supposed to last empires fall we know this. When the empire falls, what's coming. I feel incredibly curious about that and I think you do too. And it's interesting to hear you use the terminology of empire, and you're referring not to a particular nation I guess you're you're talking to an imperial system. I presume to do with money property, patriarchy and and the consumer culture built on top of all of that. Is that what you mean, growth, growth, growth. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Before we go to questions, I just want to, what's what what animates you and excites you in the world of faith based organizations in how they're responding to either real time current massive disruptions because of environmental change, or this more nebulous sort of eco distress anxiety, whereas people wake up towards what's coming at us. What's the good practice and that that you want people to know about. You can talk about your own work. This both and I mean I, I think all of us feel excited if we if we think about the ours and then deep adaptation framework restoration is low hanging fruit it feels so good to see healing and restoration happening and there are fantastic stories of this in cooperation circles around the world, probably one of the most heartening ones is an agro forestry effort that's happening in Malawi, where last year. There were trees being planted on Malawi farms. Like to the total like around 20,000 and this coming year 45,000 trees will be planted in a in a mass agro forestry initiative on people's property in these farms. So great. The framework that I am doing that is also within cooperation circles that you are a couple are participating is teaching a course that is very much about deep adaptation teaching the our framework, and I often am speaking with other groups about how adaptation can be something that is instructive for clergy people to to use with their congregations, always always grounding it in a fifth are are for reference. Very much the way that we opened today. I really love doing that work to with the four hours. So this this for those of you don't know. The, the deep adaptation paper that I wrote four years ago, I thought we didn't really have a way of talking about these things. And we just therefore went to this catastrophic imaginary and just so what I can't think of that we got to believe we can fix these things otherwise I just won't get out of bed in the morning. I don't have a way of talking about it. So then I came up with three hours which are three questions. And then summarize them with restoration resilience and relinquishment and then I added a one on reconciliation to invite this idea that we are not in control, and we do need to make peace with mortality and the things that are going to be lost. Tell me about. Like, is there a question around reverence. Have you question yet to this fifth. You know, I was really inspired by a conversation that Katie had with Stephen Wright a number of months ago, where he was inviting his listeners to in kind of a meditative space, ask the question, what do you want me to know. What do you want me to do. That is a question that I would put to reverence on the daily when I wake up when I wake up in the morning. What do you, you, you, you. What do you want me to know. What do you want me to do. Thank you for that. And I'm just enjoying in my ear and how Stephen says it. I've suddenly just had a harmony of your voice in his imagination. So we're going to Josie McLean in Australia for a first question. So, so, so Lauren, if, if you're there, can you turn on your camera as well so we don't have an ugly image. There we go. Thank you for that. I had to get out of my jammies really quickly. Thank you very much, Lauren and Jim. So, I'm wondering about kind of the difference between faith based and non faith based communities in a way. So, I've been working with a small community just off and on. Over the last couple of years that was kind of wiped out by the fires that we had here in the Adelaide Hills, a couple of years ago. So they saw their homes in some cases their neighbors die as a result of the fires. And there's a lot of deep trauma in this community as you could imagine. And we're a couple of years on now. And that trauma is still there. And I kind of thought that it might have disappeared or been started to be healed by now, but I'm now expecting it to last years. And I'm wondering, I'm just kind of curious about what you're seeing. I'm curious about whether there's a difference between faith based communities and not. What I'm seeing is that it's really going to the heart of the question of identity for these people as they've watched their lives change, particularly after, you know, some months after the fires, the patterns of their lives changed. And so, you know, there's trauma just in that losing the pattern of your life that all of that. So I'll leave it there. That's kind of the context. I'm really interested in your thoughts on this. Thank you, Josie. You know, there's, there's an incredible amount of work that is happening now around trauma informed responses and what does community resilience look like in the face of horrible catastrophic violence, you name it. I think it's really important and I, I would hope that faith based organizations can become centers of resilience in their communities so that even if I am not a person of faith or I don't belong to this particular temple that I could walk in and receive trauma informed support. I would definitely not there yet. But I would hope that that would be true. And I would also hope that this sort of adaptation and trauma informed response would start to be the operation. It's prevalent in schools and neighborhood associations and senior centers. You know, may it be so, we're not there yet, but may it be so, so important. The response, Lauren, actually, I think has triggered something here for me which is that what is the ideal for organized religion with the massive landowners they have massive resources there. They, they can connect with communities and already do in many cases so what in an ideal world, what, what would they be doing you've given one example. They have a trauma and their ability to help people in difficult situations and have you, or perhaps there's even, there's a list of all the things that could be done using the assets and skills and trust that these organizations have organized religion. I mean, I think there are some like living breathing examples of that already. There are a few churches and well, the one example that is coming to mind right now as a church in a mosque who have cooperated in Minneapolis to become a resilient center for people living there they've created a micro grid with solar and then they also open their doors to people who need a hot meal or a place to sleep. There are also churches and houses of worship that are becoming cooling centers for places where they're extreme hot temperatures. And so, we would hope that faith based entities would all be tooling up and really becoming, you know, kind of these epicenters and well resourced to respond. Now, of course, that won't matter if the flood comes there, right, but in the ways that the houses of worship can respond, we would want them to do that. So we've got four questions and just over a quarter of an hour so I'm going to ask everyone to ask their questions very succinctly. So, it can be actually quite powerful to not give the context to just go bam with the question. So we go to Katie now for a question and then we'll see if we can squeeze them all in. So my question is about patriarchal monotheism. I'm thinking specifically about the Abrahamic religions where God is separate from human, God is sacred human is not and that separation is so profound and so profoundly damaging. And it's there even in our, you know, my mental model about good, bad, right, wrong. And so I'm wondering about where is the potential for reparation for accountability for reconciliation when something is it has the status of orthodoxy, both in terms of the big narrative but also people to live lives as they're animated by these beliefs. Thank you. I'm sure I can answer that in 14 minutes. That's a great question Katie and just a friend of mine has a t shirt that says Jesus colon, and then what Jesus says is, I didn't say that. There's so much that is misunderstood about what sacred scriptures say, because organized religion and empire used it. And so I really feel strongly that clergy people who are worth their salt need to help us unlearn this really unhelpful narrative. We need to be hearing this every Saturday Sunday Friday from the pulpit to unlearn this story. That's one of the best and most powerful ways to bring repair. Yeah, thank you. And it, you know, I think it maybe feeds into Terry your question as well. So, if you can unmute and ask your question. Jim and thank you. Sorry, your name Lauren for this session it's inspiring. I'll get straight to the question. It seems to me that and to many others that a very large and powerful segment of mainstream Protestant evangelical fundamentalist religious communities here in the US especially have conflated spiritual faith with civil religion. And I'm just curious whether you personally, or you are I more generally see anything like this emerging beyond just what we're seeing and I live in Florida in the United States where the state is as red and like this. As it can possibly be. So I'm curious if you see this yourself or more broadly in the uri landscape. Thanks Terry for representing your shirts blue you're representing a different voice in Florida so thank you for that. I, I think the shortest answer in this moment and I would be happy to talk with you more about this but what we feed grows. And the United States and other countries to who are experiencing ingredients that you've named. We. It is on us to feed what we want to grow. And that is a spiritual practice worth 24 hours of my day. I, I'm just remembering my own constant questioning of where should I put my own time. Should I work with the people who I think already get it in a line and support them and help them do what I think is useful and benefit from that relationship or do I go to the barricades and have an argument and push back and the last two months, I'm doing the latter. And it's a very, it's a different thing and I can only do it in thinking that it's momentary. But also I do feel that some calling out some challenging some critiquing has to be done it's like, otherwise, I feel like we're, um, yeah we can just be swept away by the bigger forces in the world. And even if we're going to be swept away by the bigger forces in the world I want to know at least I did something. Gave more people bridges into a different way of seeing things and joining people in a different way of being a living. Um, we are going to I think Colleen Helgen next, your question, please. Hi. Thanks for being on doing this gem and also thanks Lauren. Um, my question has to do with, um, you know, there are people as we all know that believe humans are going to go extinct. And in this moment at this point in the journey, I am curious how you work with that. Um, you know, Houston Smith said we're born in mystery, we live in mystery and we die in mystery. And so for me mystery is a big part of it and it's not that we couldn't go extinct. Of course we could, you know, but it's just I'm just curious from the spiritual perspective, how you work with that part of what's happening on the planet. I think it depends on the day. I have times when I feel incredibly sad at that thought. Especially to consider how much we have brought that upon ourselves. That our choices would lead to human extinction at an accelerated accelerated rate. Really brings me to my knees. When I think about it. From a space of deep time. When I was very in Brian Swim, I can be quite peaceful about it and thinking, wow, how interesting that we would be here for a time and then we are no longer needed in the giant story. And let's tend to that. I'm interested Colleen, how do you, how do you engage people who respond to you by saying, Oh, well, humans are going extinct soon. It was our destiny, any organism that has an influx of unsustainable resource whether it's algae with leaves flowing into the pond or it's human suddenly discovering coal and oil. It's just nature taking its course so chill out. Well, you know, that could happen, you know, that certainly could happen. I guess I'm not, I kind of feel like I'm more of the mind like what is helpful right now. And some of those voices are helpful actually because it's it's bringing in a certain dimension that's needed. But we're not paying attention and as we all are aware on this call, you know, we're going into this collapse pretty unaware as a human species. So the voices that are saying actually it's even worse than that, you know, we're going to go extinct are really important in that larger field. But I'm a little bit more of the mind I guess that is that also kind of a little bit of human hubris like we know what it's going to be. That's the part that rubs me actually is just that because that is also what has got us into this a little bit as humans, you know, I clued myself in that. And so I just wonder how is there a way to work with that to help us grow into appreciating that mystery and gratitude even more. And in a sense, Lauren answered it to some degree. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. And also for this invitation to not know and therefore not be judgmental, even with the people who are quite categorical about their view is like well. So let's not just start being combative about this. There's, we don't know how bad it's going, how bad it's going to get and it could even be human extinction I mean in the deep adaptation paper. I've talked about all these different ways of framing things and that is as much seems to be about who we are as what actually information we can marshal to come up with a conclusion. I said that right now, where I'm at is I see societal collapse as inevitable a cat to catastrophic impact on humanity globally as like likely as in that means you know billions of people dying younger than than would otherwise it wasn't for this environmental document and human extinction. This century as now possible. But that was it was like possible. And I have not managed to find really good evidence at the moment that that that is going to definitely happen like if I dig down in the arguments about say nuclear power station meltdown they're not they're not good they're properly. That's where I'm at at the moment. And I do, however value the the people who've helped me look at the ultimate catastrophe for humanity. It's quite a powerful. It's almost like a meditative practice and they're like, like your people who invite you to meditate on your own death. So you can actually take on the, the death of your species, actually take it to heart and see how it helps you reconsider everything that you may have thought about your own life. So many of us are living with stories of legacy, whether that's kids, or whether it's just adding to culture or and take that away, because ultimately what's really interesting is, is take everything away and then see what remains in terms to take everyone in terms of our stories of meaning. So, I'm going to read out a question from, I think, Greg who because his internet is going down. Yeah, Greg Smith. He writes, I feel we have pathologized the climate crisis, seeing as a kind of disease that needs to be cured and or defeated says also like the war language as well, not just the curing. We believe it as ecological healing says Greg, one that invites us to participate in new healthy ways. So we can align with the new healthy reorganization, despite the truth we share now that it's all going to be quite unpleasant. So the healing journey can be unpleasant, of course. So what are your thoughts on on this. Lauren. Hi, Greg. There are some friendly adapters on this call, I know, from other spaces and it's really great people who've been in the training and whatnot. I, I like what you're inviting us to consider there. I think that very often, when something has been wounded. There's nothing in the healing process, don't we. And it feels somewhat connected to what Jim and Colleen we're just talking about to that. It's not right of us to make declarative statements about what something is because we can't be 100% sure and it's why reverence is so important to me as I do this work to stay in some space of mystery. Very important. It right sizes me and that Earth could be giving us a huge teaching in this moment. Yes. It doesn't minimize my anxiety or my grief around what is being lost and what is going extinct at because of choices we have made. Thank you. Renee, you have a question for Lauren. Oh, hold on. No, I can ready. Okay. Yeah, I can. I was thinking it might be something that I chatted with you some other time Lauren but I've got a faith community where I live and my daughter works in a cafe in this community at the United Church and it's part of a social enterprise and she really loves working there. It's a great space and I've sort of thought about, you know, inroads into this community because they're all about social justice and I've overheard them sort of having conversations about you know, lots of, yeah, well, there's opportunity. It feels like there's opportunity there. And I'm just thinking about how to engage with this young guy, the manager at the cafe and how to come into a space like that as a non religious person, but in a space that feels really community minded and really positive. And I've looked at some of the links that you shared about, you know, what the interfaith groups are doing. And yeah, so it's probably a discussion for another time but just thinking about a place that my daughter loves being and that could potentially be some kind of hub like the examples that you've given. I think Renee, it's a really important question which is that those of us who do feel moved to try and help people understand how bad things are and what's coming and invite them into that space in a generative positive way. I don't know how to do that, rather than just alienating them and also the difficulty which is then it, it's tough on us if we get really strong negative reactions. So for me it's been a question I, I know something I shy away from doing a lot of the time now. So I suppose you need to be clear about why you're doing it. Lauren, your thoughts on on this. And I think one thing that I think I heard you say is that it's a younger audience and so that I immediately approach that conversation almost from a different space, because this is their world to inherit. We all want to be really thoughtful about how we're showing up for them in this time and how we are perhaps providing them some ways to hold the enormity, the big feelings, the task at hand. And I think that the deep adaptation framework is a phenomenal way to do it and I would love to talk with you more about that. The work that reconnects you know there there are some some really good tools for helping people I think look at something with honesty, but not feel then like they need to go hide under a rock that that they can stay engaged and keep their eyes wide open. So I do hope you you do get the chance to connect afterwards to do if you need help. Everybody then do look and well as you've all registered for this meeting will you'll get a follow up email with some links. Lauren before we go you mentioned a training. I just want to say a few words on that because that may also be of interest to not only us here but also people who watch this afterwards on video. Sure. As it stands now there are sort of two ways that a group of us called project adapt have created tools for anyone who's interested there's a four session series where we teach the ours, the questions that the ours ask of us and ways that we might engage. And this is mostly from a, a space of reverence. It's, it's something that sort of invites us to be spiritually active and engaged. There's also something called the eight practices of adaptation. And these are for anyone to engage wherever they are maybe a bit like the 12 steps for some who are familiar with that path. But the eight practices of adaptation or something that I can use throughout the day, when I am encountering moments that invite me to relinquish or become more resilient as an example. Thank you so if you're watching this on YouTube, look down there there'll be some links and all of you just check your inbox in a few days. So thank you Katie for your support today. Thank you Lauren for joining us and thank you everyone else for joining from around the world and. Yeah, thank you for lighting that candle. Okay, so the next one is Katie where's the next one it's with you and Matthew painting. It's the 22nd of September, it's a different time zone if you're in the States, it's likely to be a very early morning but we'll be talking about coaching in the context of deep adaptation and collapse. Okay, and if you're interested in that and it's before the 22nd links down there and YouTube, and also just check your inbox for the rest of you, you'll get a link to that too. Bye bye. Thanks everyone. Bye bye. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thanks Gem and Lauren.