 Yeah, welcome back to Think Tuck. I'm Joe Farrell. This is Transitional Justice. Today I'm going to talk to Louis Ross. He's a French person in France, of course, and I guess he stayed up late for us or got up early. Thank you, Louis, for doing that. And right after this, we'll be back and we'll discuss the street scene. It's kind of Les Mis concurrent. We'll be right back. Bienvenue, c'est rouls, c'est ça? Comment allez-vous? Hi, Jay, thank you for having me. Yeah, great. Tell us who you are. You have graduate degrees in what subjects? Litigation, European Litigation. Yeah, European Litigation, International Law, focused on human rights. That's current. Matter of fact, later this week, we're doing a show about comparative justice systems between the countries of the EU and the United States, which is a hard comparison these days. You could tell us a lot about that, or maybe you could even join us if you have time. Anyway, so what we're doing here is we're talking about, you know, I guess the condition of the street scenes and the protests. Could you tell us, you know, just to set the stage here, what's going on in the street? Yeah, so I wanted to take a bit of context in these punchline reforms. It was carried out by Emmanuel Macron's office and Prime Minister Elisabeth Bourne, as well as Olivier Dussard, the Minister of Labor in France. The flagship of this reform being the retirement, the legal retirement age to 64 and nothing else, 62. And this was after a complicated legislative process and a massive social movement. The law was validated on April 14, 2003. It is at its new year, which is that Emmanuel Macron recalled the objective of answering the balance of force system for the years and decades to come. And so there have been a lot of voices speaking out against the reform that says that the pension will decrease. Some women will be in disadvantages and not everyone will benefit from a minimum pension of 1200 euros, even though that was promised using the media at the beginning by the government to push in favor of this pension reform. Well, maybe I haven't read the European newspapers on this, but it strikes me that this is, in Shakespeare's term, much ado about nothing. If he's changing the retirement age by what, two years, is that a good reason to get out in the street and undermine the economy, undermine civil order and have violence for that matter? I don't think, if that's all it is, it ain't much. How much more than two years of a retirement age is it? I think it's much more, a bit more about retirement age is because the riots have amplified during the tense legislative parkour because of the procedure that has been used by the government to push this reform. For example, the article 49 paragraph three has been used by Elizabeth Bourne to put a government at stake so that the text wouldn't be debated and only voted as it was. So it's, I think, more about respect for social discourse and what's happening in the streets is the feeling of not being listened by the government. This is not good for Macron. I thought, going back, he won the election, he was a popular fellow, although it was not that big a margin. And the people generally liked him, but it sounds like, since the time he won the election, he's made moves that have alienated him from the French public. Am I right? He was really popular on the first mandate. And then on the second mandate before it happened two years ago, he has been elected with less more people working for him because a lot of abstention has happened. And he was the only reference not to vote for far right parties as Marine Le Pen. So why don't people just vote against him now, throw him out of office, get rid of him, get somebody else will be more sympathetic to how people feel. Well, that happened because in France, we have the president election and then the legislative election. And so he had only majority that wouldn't be as much as he had on the first mandate. So he has to walk with consensus more than putting his way into the chamber. Well, you know, I mean, I'm not all that familiar with the way the French parliamentary system works, but isn't it possible that his party could turn against him? And his party could call for a vote of confidence and his party could throw him out of office too, couldn't it? Yeah, so that's what happened with the paragraph article 49 paragraph three of the French constitution. The vote was to get the confidence of the deputies and not overthrowing the government. And this vote only passes for nine votes. So nine more votes was to get the government overthrown. But that's that meant that not only his parties, his party political party voted for him, but he had to vote for the Republican party, your right party, that Microsoft party had to vote for him to get overthrown. So yeah, he has to walk with consensus more than on his first mandate. You think he'll be able to stay the course or is he politically done now with all this trouble? Well, I'm not a political expert, but I think it's going to be really difficult to put more significant reforms in place now because of what happened with the country reform. Well, when does the national vote come up again? We saw, you know, he beat Marie Le Pen. When does that, you know, national election come up again as a matter of, you know, the sequence? Well, the presidential election happened every five years, so in 2007. You think he could win again? Well, no, because you only can present himself for two Mondays. And so the third Monday won't happen. Okay. So what about Marie Le Pen? Does this all this trouble help her? Does she have a good shot at beating him or at winning the election the next time? You know, who else is there? I mean, she's kind of right-wing, right-wing. I mean, if you're a progressive, you probably don't favor her. She has positions that are troublesome on the human rights side of things and certainly on the Russian-Ukraine issue. But Query, you know what, is that where France is going, Louis? Is France going to the right? Does this trouble in the street accelerate the move to the right? Well, I'm a bit disturbed by that, yes. But, well, we still got four years to come, and let's see what's up next. Who will be a real figure for the next presidential election? But for sure, Marie Le Pen is getting votes now, and she's a figure for the next election also. Is there anybody else? For now, it's unclear. There is the new pass. It's the new left branch that occurred for the last elections. But his main figure, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, is retiring from politics, so new figures have to come to get the lead of this political party. You know, from a distance, it really sounds like an echo chamber. What I mean is, so he takes his position about reform. He thinks he has good reasons for it. He thinks he has, you know, he has to do this for economic reasons, and to, you know, I don't know, improve the French economy, what have you. And they don't agree with him, so they go out of the street and they criticize him, and it gets in the paper. It gets on the front page often. And so what you have is a reaction to what he's doing, and the reaction, in a sense, is more of a crisis than what he was doing. And so at the end of the day, French, you know, France is world up into this troublesome time in its, you know, economic and social history. And I think whatever he did, his popularity is greatly affected by the reaction. And so I say to myself, do we really need this now? We need the EU to be together. We don't need people in the street. We don't need, what do you want to call it, divisiveness like we have in the United States. We don't need that. We want people to get together and we want them to, you know, be nice to each other and agree with each other on principle points of, you know, government, of democracy, of human rights. And this doesn't sound like that at all. So I worry about not only France, but the EU. It's very important. Don't you agree it's very important that the EU stay together now? Yes. My personal opinion is that EU is the future and dividing EU isn't a solution for human rights, democracy and world peace. But Emmanuel Macron has a strong opinion about EU and is all for the European Union. What we see in national, in France is that these protestations and manifestations has been not as much dividing in a sense that there was still a frame like a traditional way of demonstrating. And by that it was the interunion organized then also demonstrations that gathered millions of people. But since the use of article 49 paragraph 3, there has been a lot of spontaneous demonstrations. And that's when the violence occurred because I think the people seems to not be listened in the high rank of the government. Too bad that too bad that exists. But, you know, from a distance, it all sounds like Victor Hugo and they miss Iran. One would expect the streets of Paris to be filled with barricades and the people with the traditional tricolor outfits trying to achieve whatever, you know, whatever social policy they wanted to achieve by stopping traffic, by stopping the economy. That's happened so much in France, like the truck drivers and the farmers. Everybody out there, you know, trying to get a little attention and in the process intentionally stopping traffic, stopping the economy. The people realize the damage they do not only in the sort of the image of France in the EU and elsewhere, but to the economy, the day to day economy. How is the French economy? How does this affect the French economy? Well, first, I think there is an historical way of demonstrating France. I wasn't myself in France when that all scene happened. I was in the United States in Chicago. But what I saw on social media and what I took from my friends wasn't the same. And I saw a lot of things happening in social media. That happened, that for sure happened. The consequences on the day to day living isn't at that far in extreme violence that we can see in media for the vast majority of the people, even to those demonstrations has been huge. And I think it was the more the more the ones that gather the more people since 30 years. And so on the day to day living crisis, we can see a lot of inflation. I myself as a young person and a young graduate see that the price is going up. But I don't think it's only a reason of demonstration. I think demonstrations seems to be the best way now to have a certain way to act for the government and to take place in the democratic scene. Does it work? Is it working? Well, that's been a really tense legislative procedure for this reform. And what you can see it's still not done. The bill was adopted and validated by the Conseil Constitutional which is the higher judicial review institution. But there is still a law that occurs now in the Assembly National and it could overthrow this bill even though it's not judged right now. But it seems that it's not finished. And the social unrest is still there also. Well, we talk about social unrest. We talk about protests involving millions of people. We talk about violence. What is the street scene like? All these people didn't go to work on a given day. All these people are out there and they want to be part of a protest that is heard. And they are carrying signs. They are chanting whatever you do in a protest like that. And I imagine it's not just in Paris. It's elsewhere in France also. And the police are there because the police are supposed to retain order. Is that the violence between the police and the protesters? Are they carrying clubs? Are they beating people up? What's the street scene? Well, like I said, there has been some declared demonstrations and massive gathering in the streets. The strikes in every branch of the industries, as for example in the Riffin Ries, there were no more gas in some stations. And so the Union were asking to call for a friend in a standstill. There has also been a lot of videos and media taking a stand on what's happening in the street. Much more for the yellow vest jacket movement. And we can see mainstream media like Le Monde or Liberation using those videos to denounce what we could say police violence. But it's really particularly connoted and some women wouldn't use that word and more about derailment. Like for example, the BRAF M, which is a motorcycle police force, has been criticized after a recording of some individuals asking and insinuating of some violence that's going to be happening to the protesters if they still continue to protest. Have you been out into these protests? Are they dangerous? Are they an experience you want to have? Well, like I said, I was in the United States when all that occurred. But I got some friends that went to those protests and it seemed really dangerous for Pacific people to go in those protests. And we know now since several years that people are getting hurt in those protests. Are they getting killed? There are not been people that have been killed, but there are a lot of people that have been, their eyes have been thrown and exploded because of the use of the plastic cannons. How long is this going to last? I know that's a hard question. These things over time, they come and they go. Whether there's a real resolution or not, they come and they go. How long is this going to last in France? It's almost part of the culture from Victor Hugo on forward. Well, like for the yellow vest jacket movement, it happened just before COVID crisis. And I think that just put down on the social unrest and the demonstrations because of all the securities we have to take on the sanitary measures. But I think this movement is also a continuation of the yellow vest movement. So I think people don't feel listened. And so I think if the government won't accept these protesters and the things that come with and that there is a negotiation and open discourse on those programs that France is facing, I think the protests will continue and this social unrest will continue. I haven't followed these protests in the past. I wasn't around in the 1830s for Victor Hugo. But I wonder, this sounds like it's the worst protest, the worst series of protests that you've seen that we've heard about. More people involved, more stress and strain, more contention with the government. Am I right? This one's worse than before, isn't it? I don't know if it's worse, but fortunately it's much more documented. So now we can assess the things that are happening in the streets and even intentional organizations as put their concerns on what's happening in the streets. So the fact that images are coming out of the streets is a good fact, to see what are the problems and how we could work on it. You said international organizations are interested. What kind of organizations and why are they interested and what can they do about it? Yes, we are the United Nations Special Rapporteur of the film of physicians that put concerns on that, but also the League of Human Rights and Amnesty International. I think those organizations and institutions, just by taking out those concerns and saying that there is a problem in what we see is not naming and shaming, but putting a word and eyes on what's happening and that's what the main role of international organizations is for, like putting the eyes on what's happening and working on those issues. Human rights issues, civil rights issues. We have trouble in this country, as you know, and there are people really on both sides of the aisle calling for systemic reform, reform of our American constitution, if you will, because it doesn't seem to be working. And if I give you a million people in the streets of France, I would have to consider the same possibility that if the government isn't listening and the million people can't seem to be heard, then doesn't that mean that the French system, whatever it is, the French constitution isn't working very well and it needs to be systemic reform on a larger scale? Not just the issues they're protesting over, but the way the government is set up to respond to the sensibilities of the public. Is there talk in France about that? Yes, so the French constitution has been written in 1958. It gives a lot of power to the French president and that because of the fact that the French president elections is happening just before the legislative elections and so when a president is elected, deputies will be on the same political party. So that gives a lot of power to the French president. But if not revised, the constitution, I don't think it's a legal issue but much more individual ways of things, how to engage a constructive dialogue between the institution's government and civil society. In a democracy, I think we need a constructive dialogue that puts everyone in the discussion. That's an alternative to the voting process, isn't it? We have the same problem, but let me go to this though. We know that social media and smartphones are everywhere. There are five-year-old children who have social media and smartphones and spend all day on them. In the United States and I imagine, I believe that that's the same situation in Europe and certainly in France. So you have social media which can be good or maybe not so good and you have the smartphones and you have the ability of interested parties with an agenda who like to create divisiveness. And we know that Vladimir Putin likes to do that. He has the resources, he has the experts and he has done it in various countries around Europe and the United States to divide people on various issues. Vladimir Putin is probably happy to see France in contention with itself like this. So my question to you and maybe there's no data but I'm interested in your thoughts about it. How much is this divisiveness that we see on the streets between the people and the government a function of social media? How much do you think Vladimir Putin is involved in that divisiveness and creating that divisiveness? Well, I don't know Vladimir Putin but what I saw is that on social media we had a lot of violence occurring in the streets and what's happening in those demonstrations is well documented and that's a good thing but it does not possibly represent the role of what's happening in France and I think our generation, my generation is much more connected and so it has a duty to inform and save on the best way possible like we have to do research and criticize those findings and have multiple sources of how to get the good information and the criticize of information. Well, you're associated directly or indirectly with Project Expedite Justice and human rights and civil rights and doing the right thing for civil society of course and you want to do your part obviously, you wouldn't be in that if you didn't want to do your part in it. There's a whole generation coming up in the world today, it's hard to say whether they will prevail or not because you have the good and maybe they're not so good contending with each other but let me ask you this, which way is the path for somebody like you in France and for that matter in Europe? Is it to write and make public statement? Is it to get out there in the street or somehow to support or encourage the protest in the street and help to focus them so the government is more sympathetic to their sensibilities or maybe this is an end also and or is your thought and the thought of your generation is why don't we get into government? Why don't we run for office? Why don't we try to change it by being a public official? What do you think? Well, for myself, I'm still looking for that way. I think my generation and myself, we will do right because but the thing is to stay open on everything in a humanistic way. We had to be on a union and we should be open to multicultural backgrounds, multilingual. As a European, I'm just for the union of the people and so about investigating the political process of how to represent myself and others. I think there's a lot of people doing a lot of work in my generation fighting about climate crisis and political crisis and democracy crisis. And I think the fruits of that effort will come one day out soon enough. How does your generation feel about Ukraine? That's a tough question because I think I want to represent everyone but for myself, it's really really really sad because I know that the war is everywhere and all the time but now it's at the door of Europe and it's once more international law and human rights being violated and that's just a shame. Do you think your generation will support the continuation of the support for Ukraine? Well, for Ukraine and all the conflicts and human violations occurring now, I think yes. I am and we are much in the fighting for human rights against human rights violations and all civil and economics rights. Thank you Louis. You are very kind. Thank you today. Aloha.