 Welcome to another episode of executive breakthroughs, and I have a fantastic guest here today Patrick at 128 technology and he's a COO and so we're gonna be working talking a lot about questions and answers that you are Gonna love to hear and a lot of insight so welcome to the ship. Well. Thank you very much So I want to find it a little bit weird You grew up a little bit of your background and I heard I read that you grew up in Pittsburgh And so why don't you just tell us a little bit about family and yeah It was raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on an interrural area. Okay, eight brothers and sisters So it was big family. Wow, you learned to uh share Oh, yeah, you know you have to get along and of course which child were you out of the eight third Okay, third from the oldest third from the oldest. I wonder what that says. I don't usually there's youngest and oldest I know but I don't know in the middle. I'm just in the middle. Yeah, okay So you figure out to get along and your dad was an engineer to he was my dad was an engineer Worked at General Motors and then of course got into the steel industry and that's how we were we moved to Pittsburgh when I was Very small very small. Yeah, so was your dad like a driving force for you growing up or someone that you looked up to or See just of course he was yeah, yeah, of course Is that and that sounds like that's led you on the path of going down the path that we're on now getting really interested in technology and engineering although back then I heard that he wasn't just The technology part of it, but just more of engineering and you're gonna fill into that later on Well, you know when when I was younger and going to school. I was good at math and Everybody said well if you're good at math you should be an engineer So I I didn't know much about engineering, but I did okay at school. I wasn't a great student But I did okay. Yeah, and then what was your first job outside of I worked at the Timken roller-bearing company in Columbus, Ohio they was a Did they call it a systems engineer there trying to work on business methods and make things more efficient and It was before computers really had personal computers had really been a part of the how corporations Made themselves efficient. It was just before they were coming in. So how did you get into technology then from there? Well, I did I did do some programming in college Fortran and punch cards and got a little bit of TTY stuff But I didn't take any They didn't I didn't take any Computer science classes that didn't really exist at the University of Pittsburgh. So when I went to the Timken company they had You know some mainframe computers and they still had some punch cards tabulators and all that and they brought in some IBM PCs they were fresh brand new and then and they said a college boy come over here You do this, right? So they just sort of asked me to do it because I was young And you just figured that out on your own or how do you know there wasn't much there wasn't much on those computers in those days They had a 10 megabyte hard drive That's all they had So you just started using them in the business and figure out how to like the applications for them We did some projects Inventory projects and we did some They did a lot of computations there manually and we replaced them with Programs or you could okay, you know that kind of thing and that was is that kind of the first time and you got really motivated to be in Technology by sort of working on Yes, yes, I learned everything by working. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't learn much in college I mean I got you know, you know taste of it as in relation to technology high technology Did you at this to this point? Did you have any like strong mentors or people that were in your life that were driving you? I mean the guy that I worked for at the Timkin company was also very interested in it. He was very helpful He wanted to start a business. He didn't when I was there, but he wanted to okay So what had you when did you leave there and what led you to kind of on your next path? Yeah, I came to Boston on I was living in Columbus, Ohio at the time and I came to Boston on vacation I had just learned a language called C programming language and I I learned it on my own At night and When I came to Boston, I got the Sunday Globe and I opened it up and it's hard for people to imagine this before the internet but there were easily 300 pages of help-wanted ads for C UNIX programmers in the late 80s And I said wow, you know, this is great and that's like I just went back to The Timkin company I resigned and I moved here and started that fast. You were just like I'm moving to Boston Yes, I had a relative here that let me stay with them for a while. Okay, so it helped out. Yeah So what was that next job? What did you end up taking and well oddly? I was looking at some Really good high-tech jobs, but I wanted to be in the city because I was you know never lived in the city So I actually took a job doing systems engineering at the Harvard Community Health Plan, which was at the time was Somewhat small and very very fast growing so it was it was in its own way It was the most on compared to the Timkin company. It was very entrepreneurial very fast growing And so I was I was my first experience with companies that were growing fast So that was kind of your entrepreneurial for a I guess working in that what kind of led you down more of the path Yeah, starting your own thing like what kind of set of events Yep so I continued to work on projects at for about two or three years at the Harvard Community Health Plan finished my MBA and you know the the high-tech community in Boston was really starting to to really get going and I We I became interested in voicemail for At while I was working at the Harvard Community Health Plan we were looking at systems from a converse network systems and We were we were sizing them and pricing them and thinking about efficiencies and and in the meantime I found out that there was a company here called Boston Technology That was doing the making voicemail and they had five engineers or at the time and They actually hired me and I was the fifth engineer actually and that company was just becoming Just getting going it was a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun So you worked there for a while and you did and you made some obviously some good connections and you started it Well, that's where I met Andy or a who's been my one of my you know He and I've started a couple of businesses or he did the first one and then I we started acne packing together and That's where I met him. I also met Bob Penfield another engineer here and Peter Comerford and the company was Run by younger people they were younger than me that actually started the business and they were they believed that business into being like it it it They were just incredible and they were great to watch and It was fun And that's to give you a lot of freedom. It sounds like well They worked really hard these guys would sleep in there on the floor in their office They were crazy and they worked really really hard and but very very inefficiently as well and You know they but it was fun. It was fun. I have to say it was it was a very good job and most people when I left there They had grown quite a bit. They had I don't know four or five hundred employees But time I left and which was about three years later And when I left it was because I was going to start to be part of an entrepreneurial company What did you take away from that experience that was there any like big learning things that you took away from working? you know they at Boston Tech they They had a culture that they didn't always they weren't a hundred percent They didn't Like they believed what they were doing so much it wasn't real like they believed They were gonna they believed in things that weren't quite real, and I don't want to say anything disparagingly by the company so You know, but they would do things like Round up every chance they could and I felt like they didn't need to do that I felt like the the company and the products were good enough, and they didn't need to do that Got it. So you left there, and then what what did you do? It was the next step Andy or he had already started a company called priority call management, and I was I was helping him as a friend and as a consultant I worked for beer or something it was and he had started the company on a shoestring and Was very excited and very easy if you ever met our CEO. He's very Very very a fantastic leader so he was he urged me to consider taking a job with him and I really I was just newly married and I had a mortgage and I just didn't really feel like it made sense and He said well, you know you should you should go and talk to your boss And see what he says anyway. He thought that And he was wise because I went and I talked to my boss his name was Bill Claybrook and he said He said you'd be a fool not to go and try and start that company and this is the guy I worked for who really needed me to To stay and do my job He was to urging me to go and I was like wow and he said I'll tell you what I'll take the risk away you go and work with Andy and if he runs out of money He had three or four months of money in the bank. It's all he had to run the business So if it doesn't work out, I'll hire you back So why do you think he did that because I think he was Because a unique thing. I mean I've had a one person who did that for me But that's you ever that's a unit tells you to be a new relationship with that person Well, I mean we were he liked me and I liked him and he felt like You know he it was something that I would regret if I didn't do it And he took away the reason why I wouldn't do it. And so that was good. That was nice of him So then you jumped at the opportunity and went into it and how did it how did I mean obviously it's worked out? Well over time well that mean that business you learn a lot About what not to do by making mistakes and that business had wasn't really a good business in the beginning We didn't have we didn't pick the right market the technology was difficult and expensive and you know So we we struggled For at least a year and a half Maybe going on to and then we found our way. Yeah, how'd you find your way? Well, we as usual our Principle initial idea a lot of startups wasn't gonna work. And so then you had to pivot or find some other some other way out or quit right just yes say uncle and What we did was we? It's it's it's classic, but we had borrowed money from a lot of people in the form of Advances of equipment and one of the guys that advanced us a bunch of equipment His name was Bob Mandana, and he had given us or advanced us Equipment that we probably couldn't pay for He didn't want to see us not pay for it, right? That's not what he wanted So he was very interested in us also pivoting and finding a new new new and he Connected us with some people that wanted to do a particular feature called international Calling card call back systems or whatever which wasn't what we were making but we Was close we figured with you know month of work or two we could could get it working And so that's what we did and Actually, we started to make decent money for the first time Shortly thereafter and he funneled business to us, and we were able to pay our bills, and he was happier He said and then from there so you had this business, but it wasn't the business that you wanted to so how did you? Well, we pivoted one more time into He paid cellular systems, and we did well much better grew the business to Andy would remember exactly their earnings and revenue growth, but it was a sizable business and we sold it to LHS group for roughly around a hundred and eighty million dollars and It was good thing. We sold it because that was a real tough business and We never wanted to do that again. You know that that was a tough business and multiple pivots complex sort of customer Problems and you know not problems, but you know it was difficult. It was a hard business for the dollars you earned. It was hard work We were actually writing software and putting it on top of other people's hardware and the people that sold the hardware We're making all the money and they and the people that were buying the solution Valued the hardware and not the software. That's the way it was and we felt like you know We were adding most of the value but getting Not getting a lot of credit. So we decided never again would we be a systems integrator slash Software that that that Remarkets other people's hardware. We said we weren't going to do that again Okay So you sold the business and as you all have to work in the business is when you start at times they you know people Yeah, I require you to do that at the next they didn't require it But I stayed on for about a year a year and a half Did any two or no he he left probably in about three months or so But I stayed on and really wanted to make it work and then the company that bought us sold themselves and when that happened you know all of the options we had vested right away and No one really believed that this company was was well run at that point And so everyone was starting to look for the doors and I decided to leave and start acne packet I called Andy and he was very interested in and helping me out and we got it going okay So this time you actually were leading Leading the way on this business. Yeah, not this one, but that was that yeah Yeah, I mean I had the idea and he was all for it and we tried to You know we had a couple of Get-togethers with potential investors. Everybody was excited. So that business we started it It's hard to believe it, but it was in 1999. We were forming the business and it was before you know the Nasdaq crashed from 5,000 roughly where it is now and before the airplanes hit the buildings and everything and it was a pretty Pretty crazy time before the everyone was throwing money around willy-nilly. So It was pretty crazy So talk about working with another founder because a lot of times You start up companies go south or things don't work It's that people don't have a way to compromise arguments come up Divisions happened. Yeah, it's obvious that since you two have been working together for a long time in a lot of different Scenarios that you found a way to communicate work together Find solutions get on the same page. Like, you know, how have you done that? Like what what did you need it to happen in order to I mean Andy is a great uneasy person to work with and I think We both just Worked together. Well, I guess that's it. He has different strengths than I do and We both respect each other. We've been getting it. We've been working together for a very long time When we started acne packet we went to Menlo Park Ventures to raise money and We only went in there as a courtesy call because we didn't have a business plan pulled together We just popped in to say hello and tell them we're starting a business and we wouldn't you know We're gonna come back in three or four months after we get our ducks line ducks in a row and we're gonna Talk to you about raising money and they wouldn't let us leave That day without accepting an offer to invest and we didn't even have a plan and Later on when we were asking them, well, why would you do that? You know what and they said that? that the reason why businesses fail more than not is Because people don't get along And he said you guys get along and we invested in your last company. They were an investor in the priority call management So they said we Really really like you guys. We think you guys are great. You learned a lot in your last business your next business It's gonna be better. We don't even care what you do. We're in You know because the quality of the people and the integrity that we had so they they were in just without even really hearing the idea And they made that judgment call based on how well we got along and how we created teams So what did you learn as you started acne packet from the working with Andy? Like what were some big lessons that you learned that you put into that business? Well, I mean, but so we chose we didn't really choose a great market Or even have a great idea in the first business it we did okay because we Executed well, but the market was small. It wasn't easy to understand the product space Changed and we were lucky to sell the business when we did with that with that me packet. We wanted to pick a bigger market We wanted to look at the major trends and make sure we had a good thesis for a long term value proposition and so we were more thoughtful about that and You know if you looked at our original Sort of just description of what we were going to do and then if you look at the company when it was going public Five years later. We hadn't changed much. We didn't have to pivot once so the good news was we at least made the right choice and Of course things happened that we didn't anticipate that resulted in selling the business to Oracle But you know, it was a great 13-year run. It was a great business. We made a lot of money We sold billions of dollars with a product so I think that we chose better the market and Did a much better job Why'd you end up selling the business what led to you? Yeah, it's a good question. We it was hard to grow the business we The market for our product was 600 million and we had 300 million or 310 million or something So we had 50 to 55 percent of the market and there was probably 40 competitors probably only three that were credible But when you think about it, it's pretty hard to take any market share when you have that big of a and So that was one reason I think fundamentally A second reason was that the value of voice calls doesn't matter where they are in the world was plummeting just Long distance people didn't stop paying for it. It was given away free by everybody and People also stopped making phone calls phone calls fax calls phone calls all kinds of calls people stopped making them as much They texted an email. They found other ways to communicate And so what was happening is is the market value of voice was declining. So we our product, which was probably in 90% of the world's networks was Facilitating voice going between IP networks and we just decided that gosh with voice declining There's going to be less money for the business case therefore less dollars to spend and the 600 million dollar market isn't growing And so without any market growth. There's no chance. We were going to get to grow our business and having You know when you try to manage a business that isn't growing. It's hard Because everybody wants to raise, you know, everybody wants to hire more people and you Not only do you have to say no you actually have to say you have to do more with less If the business isn't growing and that's a different kind of leadership than Starting businesses and growing them when they can grow, you know So what advice would you give people on exiting the business and selling because obviously you've done this several times You know, what what what things have you learned that has been helpful When you go down that path, I almost think you have an obligation to your customers and to your employees and to your investors To find a home for a business that you can't grow yet because businesses have a life cycle and you know Business that isn't growing As a standard that isn't growing that's mid-size or small that's in a standalone environment isn't going to thrive I mean, it's just not a good place for people that work there because they won't have career paths It's not a good place to try to convince investors that you're gonna be there paying dividends or whatever it is It's just not good. You need to you know when I the life cycle of these small businesses Ultimately is to be acquired when they can't when they can't sustain growth And so you just got to face into it and say all right now it's time I move on move on so talk about your customer Relationships you build with some of their customers because obviously if you gain that much of a market share I mean, of course you've got great technology and services But what there's obviously got to be some other stuff and how you're building the relationship with these customers That separate yourself out from the other people that were in the industry and probably just in general technology To get that much of a market share We did we had a very good reputation and I think For a couple of reasons I think one is you know that the product worked and that that's important You know, we we ran that business for 13 years and we never really got dragged into any sort of Legal issues around the product functionality not working or meeting requirements or contracts So we ran a good a good business. It was clean I think that another reason why people had such loyalty to us is that that whole market For voiceover IP had a lot of really big players in it Cisco, Avaya, Erickson, Alcatel You know, Nortel, I mean over the years there was giant companies and and there were some small companies in the business Sonnis, Acme Packet and a few others that had really credible products and people just loved the small businesses It was almost an advantage for us We could be responsive. We didn't have to bring out, you know, three-inch thick contracts Every time you wanted to have a discussion So people liked that about us and I think for us we were the last Component that went into these solutions and We were in the middle of the solution and people had problems and they'd come to us and say gee This doesn't work. Can you fix it and they knew that no one else would fix it without being paid and we frequently did fix it And so we had people liked us and and you saw their problem. You saw they were in pain Yeah, it's kind of like Apple today if I call Apple about something They're helping me and they're gonna do whatever they can't even if the problem's not theirs And that makes me want to be more of a loyal user because I know that if something happens I can call them and they'll solve the problem once it there and say It's gonna cost you $59 to fix this. They'll just stay on the phone and help me Exactly, you might say that it was the support and systems engineering and hand-holding and problem-solving that we did that built It's a promise that you kept to people to you said what you were going to do you built it You executed on it and then you know you supported them around the edges and things that they needed to do So that's these programs were very successful at at these companies all of our customers at acne packet The people that ran those programs did very well. I mean they had they met all their goals They they hit their the mark on in terms of quality in terms of return on investment So they all did well and so that they had a good feeling about about us So you sold the business what happened before and then eventually you got here So how did that iteration go? How did that path go from yeah after we sold the business Andy? Left there's no real place at Oracle for a CEO. So he left for it fairly quickly And by the way Oracle treated us really well a great company You know everyone talks about how bad they are. I think they're actually pretty pretty good Well, obviously to grow the business they have to be a lot and continue forward and iterate it and integrate all these other Businesses and I mean we tried to buy a couple of small companies at acne pack Well, we did buy three or four companies at acne packet and it you know The way Oracle buys companies is amazing. They're really well done. I learned an awful lot by watching what do they do? Well, but other people are not Because I'd love to probably want to know like what's kind of what's their secret or yeah They have this rip the band-aid approach that is phenomenal and it's what's that? Well when they buy you There's always kind of integration issues multiple systems problems with old old ways of doing business that they don't want you to do and rather than Do a two-year project to Build all the new systems run them in parallel and then cut over they literally will just say do it Just do it and so people will say like for I'll just give you an example So we were using salesforce.com at acne packet, which is an arch Competitor of Oracle so we they buy us and they say okay, so you have to get off of that You know We were assuming that they give us two or three years to migrate off and or find a way to transfer all the data And they said we're not going to transfer any of the data We're just going to shut it down. You guys have to type it all back in and so all the sales guys said well That means we're going to stop selling because we have to go and type stuff in and they said that's okay and literally the sales Ground to a halt No sales were being made the business ground to a halt for about six or eight weeks while everyone just got on to the new systems and then we were up and running and They were willing to they were smart Because they also had very reasonable quotas for the sales guys. They knew that they were going to hurt us They knew that they knew that was going to happen because they've done it so many times and they had they reached between reasonable quotas and between a fair treatment of everybody I think 85 90% of the people felt like they got treated very fairly they were able to Rip the band-aid and get the business converted to their way of running a lot quicker than very quickly. Oh, yeah Very quickly which in the ROI, I guess they thought would you know instead of two three years of doing it Yes, you're not productive for eight weeks But then we don't have to sit there for a couple years and work with the other system They buy 40 companies a year. I mean, how could you ever not you and yeah, so they're very good So how culturally did they do anything that got people integrated better on the culture side that you saw? Or is it more just this process of getting everything integrated? I think their culture if They didn't really tell they don't tell you what their culture is or they don't describe it But I if I had to guess everybody that introduces themselves at Oracle says by which acquisition They joined or oh I came in and with this company or I came in with this company And maybe it's because we were in not in their core sort of database business We were in their peripheries, but it seemed to be the culture of the company was You know it was about being acquired and joining up and you know Everyone said if you stay here three years, you will stay forever, and I think that's true. I think that they treat people fair they and You know, it's a it's a comfortable place to work So why did you end up leaving then you because you obviously left it? Yeah, well, you know I Did leave and they were treating me very well So it needed to be a good reason to leave now I made a lot of money at me packet, so I wasn't really I didn't need to work but I wanted to do something I was too young to retire so you know I These five other founders in here that are engineers Didn't worked really hard at at me packet, but weren't independently wealthy and they were constantly trying to start a business seeking my my guidance and they had terrible ideas and They just didn't think things through and we would help them by Introducing them to some venture people and help them by getting meetings with potential customers to discuss their ideas And they were just doing really horrible job, and I thought well, I need to help them out so and I did You know we did come up with the idea for what we feel like you needed to help them out because they're good guys And besides I like what am I gonna do? I had to do something I had to work so we had a couple meetings, and we said we agreed that we wanted to start a business and And that we then had to set about finding a market that we wanted to participate in right So then what did you all end up doing was it this business here? Yeah, okay? Oh, I didn't know that okay pivot right into here Yeah, and then Andy joined up or yeah this there were seven founders six of us sort of agreed to start the business and then the six voted Let's go see if Andy wants to Could participate and we decided we wanted to have him as well So he was the last one in but I think it was by unanimous You know we looked at each other and said we need Andy So to bring the band all back together in a way and I think so I think so yeah And so what what what what's your philosophy because obviously you know you've had a lot of different things you've been doing like What's like one core philosophy that you? Really hold up high. I think you always have to do the right thing not just by You know the investors because obviously you have to do the right by them By your employees and by your customers you just do the right thing or treat people right You know if you really screwed up at a customer, you know giving their money back, you know You know whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter if they're not happy they're not using the product just do the right thing That's really what we try to do And we always ask ourselves is that the right thing to do then we try to do it sometimes it's it's You know Hard but that's what where does that come from more philosophy doing the right thing Is it something you grew up with that you learned then or is it just something that you just I don't know really? I know I know we saw a lot of shenanigans in the late 90s and early 2000 at other companies And maybe it's a fallout of that You know, it's just but it's what we've always done and And it isn't just me or Andy it's it it's all with the CFO as we've had we just always tried to do the right thing What separates a great leader from a good leader from your perspective? Wow, I Read that as one of your pre-questions and I was trying to think about a good answer Because I know people there me, you know watching and listening to this They really want to know how do I take my leadership to the next level and they may be very successful now But people were looking at new ideas and nuances and things because often, you know It's a one or two degree change and what you're doing can give you massive lift. I Think you're right. I think Andy our CEO is a great leader. I think he has You know when I we hired I'll give you an example of a great leader. So when you hire people Really keep people you expect them because they're leaders and they have leadership experience You one would expect that they would be able to bring lots of people with them followers if you will people that they could could convince to come follow them and people that would want to follow them and invariably that's the true test of How strong a leader is when you hire like you can use a retained search and bring in a Top leader and pay him a lot of money But if he doesn't have a 20 people that he that love him and want to be with him Yes, then you've hired the wrong guy and time and time again. That's happened. We hired a two very senior people at acne packet I'm not to say I'm not going to go into too much detail. I don't want to criticize them but one of them came on board and brought literally 20 people that we didn't know we needed is I mean and spent huge amounts of money and built a great Organization and these people loved her and they followed her from multiple jobs and we also hired someone to come in and run a major I mean bigger group of engineers and Very senior level job and he didn't bring anybody in and so he didn't know anybody when we said hey We're looking to hire people. Who do you know? Well, you know Nobody so I think one was a great leader and the other one was a good manager, and I think that you know That's the difference to me What's your philosophy on hiring now because obviously you've been in a lot of different companies and a lot of different organizations Like how do when you hire people like what what do you ask them? How do you think about these hires like what goes through your head like today? Like if someone were going to come in for some position like how do you think through? The hiring process and how has that evolved and changed yeah over time Well, that's a very very good question because we we argue about that a lot internally here We've done this company. We've done the best hiring we've ever done We made the less that the least mistakes and have the greatest and best teams across the board We're we're now using and applying tests with all of our engineers and finding that to be very helpful I mean it's a three-hour test So if you want to work here, you got to take a three-hour test and that seems kind of you know Right away most people say forget it. You know, I have kids. I got away if I I can't spare three hours Yeah, it's a something it rules out people that don't that's an interesting thing that one little test It's a three-hour test when it's three hours But three hours in a career that you're gonna spend time with seems pretty minimal It's just interesting to see that the bar for someone is that low that they're not even willing to take a test Well, the test is also eliminating in a way because they could pick the language they want to use they can They take the test and then it gives us something to dialogue with them as though it was real work We get a chance to say well, why did you do it this way or you know? Yes, just as though we were working and when and that really helps give us a real way to sort of role play or it would be like to work with this person and so the combination of people that won't take the test and The improved interview process we've hired a very strong engineering team And I think that's the hardest Function to hire properly. I think it really is hard So the role-playing actually sounds really interesting because then you're really able to see With what the makeup is the person right not just how they're solving the problem But how they think how they communicate exactly elaborate how they'd solve a problem I mean you can probably get into some people's values morals ethics and everything else if they line up with sort of your thing of Doing the right thing or would they skip corners or what they exactly? No, that's exactly right and you know the test itself is very hard and almost no one does well on it Do you care as much how will they do on the test or how they? how they answer questions on or Collaborate or talk to you through the situation. I think the the ladders the key But if they don't do well in the test It's unlikely if they do really badly on the test. It's unlikely that right we would even waste time got it How do you view you know at this point your career risk-taking like how do you see? There's the second set the other side of risk-taking is what if you didn't do something right and I mean that's the It's balance. It's between you know people think oh wow your entrepreneur risk-taker. I don't think any of us are that are here I mean the I remember There was a young guy that was trying to start a business that worked for me at Oracle and he said Gosh, he just isn't sure about it And I said well he's trying to talk me into investing in his business And I said well, why would I invest in your business if you won't quit your job and do it like if you're that unsure You know, why would I do it? He goes well jeez, you know So I asked him I said how much money do you have and could you how long could you last without a paycheck? he said I could probably go six months and I said well, why don't you just go do this business and You're either gonna be successful or not. He goes that's true and and I said what's the worst that could happen? He said well, I could fail said what would happen then I have to get a job I said you'd probably have no trouble getting a job, right? And he was pretty confident that because he was a very senior guy lots of good experience that he could get a job He said so really you have the capital to take a chance and if you won't take a chance on yourself Why would anyone invest in you and so I said you know no one no one will invest in you if you don't do it yourself? And I think that's true a lot of people run around trying to raise money, but still have a job and you're like well Gosh, you know you're either all in or you're not and the risk of not doing it and staying it in his case Staying at Oracle would have been that he would have been up miserable, you know or not happy and So he took the job he did I mean he did quit and he did go start the company he had trouble raising money Ran the business for a year and a half sold it Probably broke even in terms of what he would have may had he stayed at Oracle And now he's got a really good job at a different company. That's his startup He's not he realized that he's not an entrepreneur Himself he realized that but now he's at another small company and he's doing quite well You know last question for you is when you look at other entrepreneurs What do you think is the makeup of the people that end up being successful and those that don't and I know It's a really broad generalization But I mean obviously you've seen a lot of people in a lot of industries and spoken to people and there has to be Some things in your head that you see that really jump out Well in our sector in our high-tech sector now I don't know anything about biotech or anything like that, but in our sector people the people that focus on the science I Think tend to fail more than the people that focus on you know the markets and you know in California, that's where everybody does all the Consumer stuff, but over here in the Boston area. We're more of a commercial, you know selling to enterprises Startup area there's all the companies around here. That's kind of what we do and and come and you know, I Think it's actually really Quite interesting because the companies and the people that start businesses Trying to take a pattern or take a technical idea and say it's better Don't do well the companies that really understand markets and really understand The customers and in where products and technology how they impact customers those guys So that sounds like the psychology and emotions as well as you know, I mean, it's and the market itself I mean may fit into that as well Yeah, I think so I think engineers tend to make lousy Engineers who tend to make lousy entrepreneurs in general because they focus on they think it's logical It's not and they also focus on technology instead of really What the vet with the true value proposition proposition is to the rational buyer consumers not a rational buyer, but a business is and so Insolving the pain. Yeah, the more the pain It's right where they have to buy it. Yeah, look at all that So well, thanks a lot today for joining us on the executive breakthroughs. It was fantastic Have you already shared a lot of great insights and all these wonderful things about a build a company be successful in the culture And hiring so thanks a lot for being thank you very much