 Yn ymlaen o'r plan o ffordd o Gweithgaredd ynglyn Cymru, rwy'n cymhau bod yw'r parwysau Llywodraeth. Yn ymlaen o'r parwysau Llywodraeth, mae'n fwy o'r parwysau Llywodraeth ac yw'r parwysau Llywodraeth. Cymru yn gwneud o'r parwysau Llywodraeth yma yn ymlaen o'r ffordd o'r gwnaeth Cymru. Dyna ni'n gweithio'r parwysau Llywodraeth yn ymloedd yn dechrau'r parwysau Llywodraeth. So we've got from five o'clock to half past six this evening, this, if I've been supported by the Crossparity Group on the Welsh economy, I chaired the Crossparity Group on the Welsh economy as well, I've made the Crossparity Group on the chair, on the memos in the parliament as well, and also the international development Crossparity Group in the Scottish plan as well, so we're looking at the Welsh economy, but also looking in the wider context in terms of international development. So I'll introduce a panelist in a while second, and give a little bit more breakdown about what they've eventually involved this afternoon. So I'm going to introduce a panelist, so our first panelist is Gemma, he's right there Gemma, and he's a proactive political contest. No, not politically, I'm going to say that. A political economist and system-sharing specialist dedicated to transforming the economy to serve society and the environment. She's the trustee of the well-being economy of Ireland in Scotland, and the senior fellow of the financial innovation lab. Gemma has a PhD in diverse economies and has published on transforming banking and finance. She's joined us online and she's joined us from South Africa, so Gemma is a network colleague of the well-being economy of Ireland, a community board that I non-profitly give passion for social and creative entrepreneurship. She graduated from the Gordon Institute of Business Science, social entrepreneurship programme. She's also a community organisation maker for other partnerships, which enables the well-being economy of the eastern outskirts of the Johannesburgs in our city, and I said to her earlier in this concert that I was so excited to see her with the staff around. We're able to see you. To my right here is Madam Brett, my name is a researcher and a political economist. Currently a research fellow, I want to see a co-operative in the middle of the economy of Ireland. A board member for the Green New Deal of Lysan sets an expert plan for the North Ayrshire community well-being strategy. So, it's great to see everybody here this afternoon. The cost of living in Lysan is probably the best issue every politician is facing at the moment, but it's also important about how we can make sure we transform, over time in terms of cost of living. It's not short term change, but the longer term change that we have in Lysan is very important, and one of the main reasons I'm in Lysan is that the cost-back group of the well-being economy, for me one of the main reasons is we can't continue to measure economic development through the well-being economy. That can't go on, we need to move on from that, need other measures to look at that, and that's one of the key things that the cost-back group has been discussing. If I had various other cost-back groups in the panel before, we've had a bit of situations from Holland in the middle parts of the issue as well, so it's great to see this. Is there a world issue? Is something wrong in the changes? No, just one issue for Scotland, it needs to be changed worldwide in terms of that. So I'm going to open up a little bit the first question, and I'm going to open that in the first question in that regard, and it's really talking about when we get this first question. In terms of the cost of living crisis, what can we do to tackle the cost of living crisis at Scotland globally at the moment? So I'm going to probably open up to Gemma at the moment, and then I'll come across to Wally, and then I'll go to Gemma. Thank you all very much, nice to see you all here, including Gemma Christine at my side. Oh my gosh, because I've been working with Wales Scotland now for maybe two and a half years, and it's the first time I've seen people in real life, so it's exciting. But what have we been doing for those two and a half years in Wales Scotland, and not just from then, but before then, a lot of people have spent a lot of time for many, many years. Not warning about the explicit moment that we're in, but saying that there is a better way, so people have been calling for action on climate change for 30, 40 years. When I counted as a youth, which sadly isn't a war, I went to COP 15 in 2009 in Copenhagen, and that was pre-COP 2016. That was the last chance to get one of five to still be a goal, and as we saw, we're still not doing it, so it's 16 years later. When I went to COP, when the global youth came from all over the world, so the UK youth delegation, part of the Copenhagen youth delegation, so we fundraised to make sure they come over, get them in the room of the English and the UK politicians, and the negotiating teams to try and read and be allies and raise real threats that are there, particularly for the global stock, facing the worst ones in this crisis. Sadly, the current situation in action is coming home to boost here for the first time in a really very real and visible way. I don't think it's been enormous to say that there is really such a frightening kind of head in the UK in terms of people's... Can we just think about that term, the cost of living crisis, the cost of living. We're not talking about the cost of enjoying our life, we're not talking about the cost of sitting up and putting your feet up. The cost of not being able to go on holiday. We're literally talking about people's capacity to live and to live when I was in England well in this scenario. We're talking about a situation where in Scotland, there is already a problem of fuel poverty, about 20% of the population are affected by fuel poverty. That's expected to rise to 60% in the coming months ahead. The cost of living, the cost of fuel on its own is going up, what was it, from 1,000? I've lost it somewhere. It's going up to possibly 4,266 I think it is in January. That's insane. Regular people who have good well-paid jobs and maybe who haven't got a lot of debt are going to feel the push. Everybody who is underneath that are really going to struggle. But I think the point is, it is wholly preventable. Had we taken action 40 years ago, had we taken action 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, last year, now, we're still waiting for real significant action, at least from the UK government. Although there's a lot of great stuff in terms of the heat and building strategy, which I think we'll get on to later in terms of Scotland's specific action. A well-being economy in terms of the cost of living means that we need to just call out the fact that this is a crisis about surviving, about people just being able to heat their houses, not freeze to death or come firstly like cooked to death in the heatwaves. It works on both sides of this. What we really need to do is say that this is really enough. The things that we need to do to tackle the cost of living, all the things we need to do to tackle climate change, all the things we need to do to tackle inequality, all the things we need to do to create good jobs for people and to push away from the cost of living and push into living well, living joyous, happy lives, which is all anybody really wants to do. I think we are in a very dire situation and I think this is going to be a really good discussion to try to ease out some positive actions and a positive path forward from the cost of living crisis into a well-being economy. Thank you for that. I'm going to bring it in in a minute. Can you remind me the point that Tim has made about the warming? If this was the case last night, it was going through Twitter. In 1986, Carl Sagan gave evidence to the American Senate talking about climate change and the dangers of climate change in 1986. He was like, no, imagine if you had been listening to the airporters and listened to the human things now. I'm going to remind myself in terms of the cost of living crisis now that's impacting on South Africa in terms of the well-being of the economy and the impact it can have on South Africa. Exactly. I just want to report what you're saying because just that question, living wage, something I've been thinking about so much is that this is a human rights crisis. It really is fundamentally an attack or impacting our human rights as a society and especially as Africans are really feeling the impact of this. Obviously with the war and the pandemic, all of these have had a huge deep economic crisis and just an effect on livelihoods in Southern Africa specifically. We've seen extreme poverty just increased by, I think, 65 million people in 2020 and then further 35.5 million people lost their jobs in addition to that in 2020 alone. And the job that the unilaterating South Africa, for example, amongst our youth is up to 63%. And so there's so many things that this is really affecting our access to basic goods, basic services, our food, our housing, our health care, our access to electricity. There is so many fundamental basic things that are being impacted by this and this is why I see it as such an important thing to have this discussion around today. But further than that, I also see unraised civil, unraised rising, poverty rising, social friction, inequalities increasing. And so this is just in terms of the social fabric, not even just access to human rights, the social fabric of our country, of our continent is really being impacted by this as well. And so this is, you know, obviously, as you mentioned, the helping economy is a long, long, long way to live overdue. But even more so at this present moment, I think this really highlights to our society, to communities that where is the sense of a winter when, you know, big fossil fuel companies are taking advantage of this crisis situation and further increasing prices. How do we bring the spirit of winter, which is just goodness, of actually recognising humanity and recognising one another? And I really think the evolving economy ties into this. And so I come from Johannesburg, South Africa, as mentioned, and one of the communities that have been actively involved in is called the Makers Valley. And we've really looked to, while the economy, especially during COVID, at the brink of COVID, we really looked to some of the approaches and looking at a local economy and community wealth building and some of the solutions that lie within this, you know, global kind of narrative. How can it be localised and contextualised for our demographic? And it's been really interesting to see some of the solutions that have come up from this, looking to wellbeing economy frameworks and approaches, but actually making it resonate with our local communities. So I just love the fact that the wellbeing economy has really always emphasised that we need social justice on a healthy planet. And this really goes back to this conversation, is that how can we ensure that there is justice for people on the planet? And I think the wellbeing economy provides a lot of answers to this. Well, thank you for that, and I think what we want to do is to be touching on that instead is the global need for change and not just country by country with that global need. So I'm going to bring in Miriam. It just answers your question. One, Keith, anything for me today to get across as we want to see as a participator as possible. So if you do have a question, we've got Robin, Mike, some of the back there, please put your hand up, or a comment to make or bring in. I've got a list of suggested questions, but we're open to the policy for the floor to make any questions. So please feel free to participate. This is a two-way process in terms of that. Miriam, just on the first question. Fantastic. And what's going to be here then? So, thank you. I mean, I think the cost of living crisis has exposed really deep steps, fractures and fault lines throughout the heart of our economy and really driven forward the need for an economic systems change approach. You know, we're seeing a perfect storm gap and we're seeing high water and profits from fossil fuel capital. We're seeing soaring rates of fuel poverty forced to choose between heating their homes and putting food on the table. And so it really kind of encapsulates a lot of the essence of some of the fundamental fault lines of the way in which the economy is owned and the way in which the economy operates. And intrinsically tied to the cost of living crisis is the volatility of the current operation of fossil fuel capital. And it can't see those as separate. And tackling it in questions was about how we tackle that at an international level, at a Scotland level, at a UK level as well. I think at an international level there's huge amounts that we can do to begin to tackle this. Look at it again, of course, the causes and distribution of consequences of climate breakdown which are heavily tied to fossil living crisis are unequal and the distributional effects are unevenly felt. And those contributed least towards the climate crisis are at the front line of climate breakdown. And that's fundamentally unjust and indicative of the economy that is unequal by design. And so what actually can we take in to address that? Well, I think firstly in terms of Scotland's place on this, you know, as an oil and gas hub, there's a huge amount that we can do to actually accelerate that transition. Scotland, who are finally our appalling weather today exempt, has a benefit. You know, we've got incredible wind and wave power, we've got incredible renewable potential. So our job to accelerate that renewable transition is part of a just transition that creates good green unionised jobs throughout the country. It's integral to actually a bigger kind of conversation around wider decarbonisation strategy. The role that we can play in granted that our limitations to this is in the nature of what is devolved and what is not, but there's normative power in pushing for debt relief or debt restructuring or debt cancellation – which the UK, frankly, has an important track record of doing. There's actually, we can take again, at normative level, to look to making trading just by designed to actually try and alleviate some of the pressure on countries in the world south and tackle international the way in which the economy is designed to exacerbate global imbalances. Like, for example, the abolition of the energy charter treaty, which enables companies to sue countries that seek to transition to renewable energy. So we're seeing Europeans, sometimes UK-based or gas companies, for example, suing governments in the middle-income governments for attempting to accelerate their transitions. Last but not least, we need to have a very serious conversation about climate recognitions and what that means for the world south, what that means to tackling those deep-set global imbalances in the international economy. At a UK level, I just want to speak specifically on energy just now. Throughout my work, I carried out research specifically looking at the ownership of our energy systems. Over the past ten years, big, six energy companies paid out almost £23 billion in dividends. That is six times their tax bill. Now, if we look to France, for instance, the French government forced EDIF, the National Energy Company, to cap wholesale energy prices to 4%, and then they nationalised the company. That was done to tackle the cost of living crisis, and as an example, we aren't seeing the levels of fuel-poverty spikes that we, in France, that we are here in Scotland. Of course, I'm from Shetland, it doesn't get much further than that in the UK. It's very, very cold, and so Scotland is uniquely vulnerable to the upcoming winter. The notion is almost kind of so ingrained in it, and I think it taps into the need to just completely and fundamentally rewire the economy to focus on delivering the public good, on delivering and aligning its goals to sustainability, to equity, to justice. So hardwired is our approach to deepening marketisation in the economy that I think we have a kind of exceptionalist perspective. The need to step right back from that and look around us to what other countries are doing, what's the norm in other countries, and recognise that public ownership of energy can help us deliver a just transition. It can create better value for consumers. It ensures that emits will be reinvested in those services and reinvested in households as opposed to extracted to shareholders in executive pay, and it can help to create more and better paid jobs throughout the country as well. So there's just, I mean, there's a hundred and one things to talk about. We need to tax profits. We need a green industrial strategy. We need an ideal for workers, and I think we will all long speak about Scotland's specific examples shortly, but this should be a way back call. This is a perfect storm, and it should be a way back call to fundamentally rewire the ownership of the economy. Thank you for that. I'm going to come back, and of course I mentioned at the start about the title of the discussion, something that will cost a well-being economy part of the answer. When I first came into the parliament, speech after speech after speech I mentioned we need to move to a well-being economy, and I thought, right, I'm going to ask some of my colleagues, what does a well-being economy actually mean to you? There are many different answers to the questions that were asked, so I'm probably going to try and turn to the panel on the spot in terms of what we're asking to keep it moving forward. But in terms of that, I'm really keen to understand from the audience what they think, what you think a well-being economy is, because I think one of the key things you always need to do as a country is how do you measure what a well-being economy is? That's part of it, and what does it mean to you? What does a well-being economy mean to you? It does fall things. We all Scotland have produced a lovely short, brief strategy, so even if you don't feel like you understand economics, a lot of people feel intimidated by that, that's not what we're about. It's about really pulling it down, and we've got this fantastic strategy, and there's four things that a well-being economy is involved. So the four things, because I'm going to ask for the iteration. So we've got purpose, so there should be guiding principles to create a well-being economy, and that should drive what businesses do, it should drive what policy does, it should drive how people are able to make decisions about their own lives to enable those kinds of principles of a well-being economy. The second thing is prevention. So this is about, you know, we spend so much money having another great report in New York, Scotland, which Anna, one of the authors, sat right in front of me here called Failure Demand. And what that did was look at how much money we spend just fixing up the messes that the current economy creates. Now, you know, even if you're not kind of the most sort of right wing dory, everybody hates inefficiencies like that, like why are you spending so much money having people come to home and then sort of trying to fix it a little bit, maybe not quite perfectly afterwards. What we need to do is do preventative measures, so that means, you know, tackling the root causes, so we often say like moving upstream to sort of stop the floods from happening in the first place. The third piece is pre-distribution. So this is again about preventing gross inequality in the first place. So this would be about people getting paid a fair wage, not taxing or not taxing the owners of that wealth later to give things back in tax credits. It's about giving people who create a value in the first place a fair share of that value in the first place. So, you know, there's lots of examples in Scotland of community-owned businesses and employee-owned businesses and co-ops, and there's loads and loads of fantastic models that we already have that's already part of our economy now, or what we need to do is scale that up and make it much more real. And then the final piece is people power, and so, you know, people need to have the choices available to them and feel like they can be in control of their lives, and I think people are just kind of on a raft being washed or dripped and not being able to take control and ownership and freedom for themselves and their own lives in that way. So people need to see whether it's in democracy, so democracy needs to very, very strongly be strengthened because it's at quite a lot of risk in the moment, both here and across the world. You know, if anyone followed the January 6th of the things that people in America like, we are really short steps away from quite a terrifying situation sometimes. But so, to counter that, people have to have meaningful roles in work, in politics, in businesses, in their communities to be able to shape the future that they need. So, that's the key. Will you come to me and then talk about bringing yourself back to that? How do I follow the four P's? Difficult. Okay, I think just to add to that rather than attend to follow on from it, is that it's about realigning our value system of what the economy is meant to do, what it's meant to deliver and who it's meant to deliver for. Our economy is meant to give us the necessities and the war to life, right? It's about warm, safe, affordable homes. It's about affordable, accessible food. It's about delivering good wages, good conditions for jobs. And it should actively root out the entrenched inequalities in our society. It should put us on a path to a sustainable future for future generations to enjoy. That should be what the economy is there to do. Instead of measuring it in that way, we encapsulate it through these very, very narrow fiscal metric systems that fail to actually accommodate the nuances and the complexities and the goals and the values that we actually want to seek. And GDP in particular is intrinsic to the way in which we do this. And we've sent an entire economy around it and we have done it for decades and it's bonkers. And it doesn't actually assess rates of decarbonisation. It doesn't actually assess how sustained a lot of economies are, the qualities of those jobs, the levels of inequality in society, all of these things that are intrinsic to how the economy functions and how it delivers for us and who it delivers for and why. And I think just to end by saying that, you know, and I was guilty of this as well. I used to say that the economy is broken and we just can't look at it is. But it isn't in many ways, so that's doing exactly what it was designed to do. The time of the economy that we have, there's nothing natural or inevitable about the time of the economy that we have today. And we've changed it in many ways before we can look to the post-war consensus and the way in which we had a dramatic shift of values, the levels of investment we saw to restructure and rebuild the economy out of the wreckage and make them look to a very different type of transition under the fact that we're living years, in which we saw an ideal of giving, devastating, but radical transformation of the economy. There is nothing natural or inevitable about the way the economy is currently geared. Who is the economy and in whose interest is it run? And we have the power to change that and put it simply and well in the economy to that part of that is a really important foundational step to do so. So, if anybody wants to come in, please do hang up after us and then I'll bring over to you what is about being economy to you, but totally yourself after all. Excellent. Yeah, I mean, it's very hard to add to what they've just said. I think Meridian comes as what building alliances is advocating for. And I think, yeah, I'm sitting from the same hem sheet. So, what I would just say, something that I think is personally being important for me is that the well-being economy is also about diversity of thought. It is about plurality. It is about a prusivity because it's not a one size fits all. And when we think about local context and moving away or, you know, the spirit of decolonisation and looking to various parts of the world and what resonates and what works in a local context, it's so important that Indigenous knowledge is brought to the forefront as well and that the voices. And this is the thing about the well-being economy that's that it's every voice is valid in the room. It's not a searching group of people. Actually, it's all of the compassing. And this is the thing is that the economy is, it's exciting because now everybody has a say as a management of how we live our lives, management of how we engage with one another. And so this is what I learned about the well-being economy. And even though approach that we have is not just about the outcome or the tool that we're trying to create, it really is also about the design or the process of how we get there. So we look a lot at co-creation and participatory processes because the process of getting to the outcome is just as important as outcome. So that's what I would add. Felly, can you make a comment on the way that's moving on to the next reality? That is the issue. First of all, thank you. I'd like to know how this fits in with the environment. Obviously economy is having a terrible effect on the environment. And I'd like to know how this well-being economy links with the donut economics, which, you know, theogne, limits to growth in terms of its impact on the environment. Thanks. Is there any other questions? I'm going to take on more or two questions then. I'm going to take the leaders in the front yard and the leading back. I'm going to take a couple of questions at times so the pan is going to take a lot of that one. I'm going to just take the lead in the front there. I'm from Scotland's International Development Alliance. I'm interested in the fact that obviously there are consensus in the room and in South Africa. But actually at a global level, if you look at the draft statement from the Heinleville political forum, which is all the Governments in the world talking about the sustainable development goals, a'r 29 yma yw'n ddysgu ar gyfer gyda'r GDP gan yw yw'r mewn mewn gwirioneddau a'r gwirioneddau yn ymgyrch. Felly, mae'n 163 yma, yn ymgyrch yn ymgyrch yn y rhan, ac rwy'n gofod y gallwn i'n fath o'r cyffredin. Felly, rwy'n gwybod ymgyrch yn ei wneud. Felly, rydym yn i'n gallu ei gwasanaeth i gael, a'n gweithio'n i gael yn y fath o'r cyffredin. Felly, mae'n rhai fath o'r cyffredin a'r cyffredin yn ei wneud. Mae'n gweithio o'r cyffredin, mae'n gweithio'n gweithio oherwydd mae'n ymhygr yn ddechrau, ond mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio, ond mae'n gweithio'n gweithio sy'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Mae'r grwp sydd wedi eu gweld iawn yllwario i chi allangoedd. Pen ddo. Ond, rydych chi wedi bod y cwrs wedi llwyddo rôl i chi pa eich gweld. Yn y fyddi'r cwestiynau, ym mrae angen, ymyl y ddalodau yn par Genllun jomau. Mae'r drôl ar hyn wrth gwir oedd y dda, mae'r ddweud yn gweithio ar y cael Llywodraeth, mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'u lighter ag yn myl. Dw i chi'n rhaid i chi ymddangur ddwy o'r cyllidion ddwy? Mae'r ddweud ddim yn ei ddweud, ac yn ei ddweud, dwi'n ddim yn fath yng nghymru, a'r ddeunydd yma eich bod y gallwn i ddweud yn Llyfrgell, mae'r ddweud yn ymddi, mae'n ddweud yn ni'n ddweud o'r llyfr am yr oed, neu'r ddweud o'r llyfr ar gyfer ymddangos. Yn ei bod yn ymddangos i'r digwydd ymddangos, ac mae'n ystafell hwnnw o'r cymwyntol yn ymddangos i'r ddweud. Mae'r ddweud iswyr yn ymddechrau a'r cyfnodd. The social protection for South Africans or Africa, I think it's at 17% in terms of social protection, the global comparison is 47% So it's really, really difficult to speak about climate justice. We're not speaking about social justice, but the narrative that we really emphasise is that they go hand in hand, they are linked. Climate justice without social justice, social justice without climate justice, you can't do either. I think it is really important to actually build and manage a narrative around this, especially now with the COP 27 being in Africa this year. Because African leaders, we are just discussing this with the team yesterday, is that there is the sense that African leaders are coming forward to say, actually we are really burdened by the socioeconomic state of our countries as a continent. And we are going to be looking at the fossil reserves that we have and we are going to be exploring that to alleviate the social pressures that we are facing. And so there is real urgency in terms of addressing or assisting. And I think you were speaking earlier about foreign aid or debt alleviation, specifically for African countries, that there is enhanced liquidity and really recognising the burden from a social point of view for African countries that can really kind of assist in terms of having a more open approach towards the kind of justice work that needs to be done. And so I say it as a sort issue, just in a practical example in our community that makes value. We started this local currency that rewards people in our community for recycling but gives them access to surplus food. And there is a whole model around this that has been really successful and it is a digital currency and it has really worked. But the actual value of that we would still say we are struggling as a community for people to see waste as value, to see that the recycling work that they are doing is actually benefiting them in the long run. They are really just seeing the immediate response in terms of access to food as a thing that they are working towards. So the climate justice or the recycling initiative or the environment part is great but it is nice to have what I would say on a community of grassroots level. It is a really hard sell and so this is why we are really passionate about combining the two narratives together. It is an initial way to touch on the global impact that I want to touch on what local communities can do as well so that we can just move on on to the next question. And I am just talking on the point that I thought about, don't like the context, just your thoughts on that. Then I want to talk a bit about the global context and the massive development and the importance of that. Yeah, I would say, and Jenna covered it really well, but I mean I would say as well on that point around the curve, the need to curve because it ties into the point that you yourself have made around the need to kind of place it with something else. You cannot just not measure the way the economy operates. There are a series of indicators that we could look to that would be universally better wherever you are in the world to try and measure what success in the economy looks like. That could be the telepoverty reduction in rates of deep carbonisation, the quality of jobs that we have in the economy to give a few examples of the need that could be, but also just to add to that that there is a real need to shift away. The climate and environmental crises changes absolutely everything. The need for urgent and radical action is very, very clear. The literal deadline in front of us is 1.5 hours to get to you. So the need for urgent and radical action is very clear. Within that too, I think there needs to be a way in which we reframe policy decisions around investment and the duration with which we expect to see returns, because that's sometimes how it's seen, right? There's a very, very short-termist approach to the way in which decisions are taken, and how we measure those decisions is linked to that. We need to reframe our minds out of that and kind of rewire our approach to public policy to try and tackle climate and environmental crises in a way that actually is consistent with long-term planning, which is something we haven't done for decades and decades and decades. Generally at a UK level, certainly. That actually kind of shifts away from the short-termist thinking, because it's simply not applicable to a nature of climate and environmental breakdown. Thank you for that. I want to now move on to the two points we've made about the speakers I was talking about in the mass development being incredibly important of this, and I suppose it's global well-being, which I think is incredibly important. And I think at the moment a lot of the customer interest is coming driven by geopolitical issues that have ignored, obviously, the war in Ukraine has obviously had an impact on that. The impact of gas, and what we've talked about in our just created a link, I think that's incredibly important, in terms of, I think there's another couple instances when we look at it, a couple of times last year we talked about the big, massive bloke countries in the U.S., China, India and other options to move to quicker measures to get us down to 1.5. And we just have to look at the pandemic in terms of how quickly, or how poorly, the demand for relatively rational and tried to support vaccination in the poorer sides. So that, again, is an issue around that. So I'm going to open it up to the panel on terms of the importance of international development in global well-being, where we can play a part, and I think the lady mentioned about the indicator of what we need to do globally to do this towards that. Do we almost need something similar to COP 22, in terms of moving towards a more simple well-being and how do we move together in that? So, do you want to come to yourself on that and first of all, then I'll go to William and then Jim? Sure. So, yeah, I do, obviously global well-being is important, and I liked somebody in the panel said, what does that mean, though, for the various countries? Because it is going to look different in each country, and I think that's one of the starting points. If we had a platform to discuss what global well-being looks like, I think that would be crucial in terms of hearing the voice of the majority world, which is often so left out in terms of these conversations and these platforms and these dialogues, is that that is such a crucial first step in terms of examining what is the development that we're wanting to do if we have to hear the voices of these countries first. But I think I was alluding to the fact that just now I was speaking about, yeah, this socio-economic pressure that African leaders are facing, and how can international or the global just kind of assess and input and provide assistance in terms of the, so you spoke about vaccination relief, which was absolutely incredible for specifically Africa and what that meant in terms of us fighting this pandemic. But there's so many other ways that this can be done, and I think specifically in terms of debt alleviation and enhanced liquidity for these countries, because this is really where the biggest struggle is. I think that's a big step for us. Obviously I was speaking from the African perspective, so this is really what's crucial for us, but from a global perspective, I really feel that, yeah, a conversation where everybody's got a seat at the table, that's berating in full specifically for Africans to feel that their voice is not only heard, but it's valid and will be taken into consideration. And even this narrative around African leaders now saying they're going to explore fossil fuel reserves, and there's a quick no way from the global audience like that's wrong, that just goes against everything that we've been working for, or time of change, that response within itself has been seen in a negative light in terms of an African perspective, because it's seen again as a sense of colonisation. And so I think it's about really just having this conversation but really valuing the knowledge that these African countries or majority world countries can bring before we push solutions and try to access or to go on this path of development without actually recognising what are the actual needs and why. Just on that and I suppose one question that was mentioned by the second speaker there was around about the need globally to move towards developing economy. How do you mean get agreement on that as much as possible? One of the key things I think for me when you're talking about a broken system is that we've got governments moving towards spending 3, 4, 5% of their GDP on defence spending, and we've got the current government here in the UK cutting their 0.7% project forward. There's something fun in the middle of the world when we're looking at that internationally. So I don't really want to know in terms of how do we move the world globally towards the developing economy, how do we mean get 100% of our 163%? How do we get agreement on that as out there? I don't know where the balance is going to be for, is that a right in terms of the speakers from New Zealand, speakers from Holland, or the sideshirts in South Africa so it's this. It's an issue that's been raised about how do we move towards it as a more action from governments that it needs to be done. So I don't know if you have thought on that and I always ask you may on the general point of that as well but I know that you've thought on that point that was raised by the student. This is where we already have five governments, national governments, working with building economy purchase and frameworks, and how about 20-40 strategies to enhance the number of governments that are looking to building economy frameworks and approaches. And what we see actually is interesting that there is an interest in what this means for national governments. I'm just hearing an echo of myself. But what this means for national governments, this has been, there's interest in terms of this, and what we see at a societal level, and again I go back to my grassroots activism stance, is that this failure demand of society saying something is not right. This economy is not working for us. And so from the ground up we've seen pressure on governments nationally and locally. We started, we've got a thing that's called the policy makers network, which are local governments across the world that are connecting and sharing knowledge and understanding how can I use building economy in my context and getting learnings from one another globally, which is also growing. In South Africa, for example, we've seen cities really getting in contact with us, asking us how we can be part of this network. So I think the interest is there. It's just about the support and the networking and providing the resources or the steps and the guides in order to implement it. And so a local level we've worked on for local government policy design guide, which is co-created by over 70 members within the Wellbeing Economy Alliance that is being piloted in various areas, and this has been really fruitful in terms of, because of the plurality of thought and perspective, but also realising that the way that it's being piloted is obviously looking different. The outcomes are not exactly the same. It's looking, you know, the nuances are there. And so even though they're working from one policy design guide, we are flexible and open to the fact that this is not going to look exactly the same across the globe, but actually that's a great thing. It's not going to. And so I think it's about this ground up kind of activism and movement around people saying we want something better. This is not working for us. And we're starting to see that, but also from national and local government policymakers actually being part of this, providing them with the support, the tools or resources in order to implement them in their, obviously, in their context. I think we'll probably want to work with local communities and local authorities to play their part. But the point obviously, my name is just obviously at the point where I've done a lot of the global well-being, how important is that in terms of the national development, but should we also be measuring our contribution to global well-being? We've talked about how we measure our contribution to well-being in front of me in Scotland. Should we be measuring our contribution to the global well-being as well? So I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, definitely. I think that's a really, really interesting idea. And I think just on COP26, first I think it was a really important moment for Scotland, the Scottish Government, to, we saw the First Minister come out against the creation of Campbell Overfield. That felt massive. I think that's a really kind of seismic shift, and we've got a lot further to go, but I think taking steps to talk about not just about, you know, we want to see renewables, but actually what does that just transition look like for other communities and other workers? What does that mean for them? How do we ensure that we don't treat all the communities and other workers like the factory, the coal miners, and actually give them the guarantee, give them security, give them investment skills, the training and the job guarantees that they need? And it felt like a real step towards that kind of conversation. So just to say that, I thought that was really important. On the international side, now we rightly saw condemnation around what some countries were and were not willing to do at COP, particularly in India and China. What I would say is that when we're looking at emissions, we cannot just look at the emissions of today and we need to understand how countries have contributed to historical emission trends. And that cannot be separated from the historical realism slavery in the case role in that's astronomical. And I think that needs to go into a bigger conversation about what climate justice looks like, what climate reparations looks like, what a positive approach to climate justice should and can be if we take this seriously, which we should. And on the point on debt, which was raised earlier as well, there's things that we can do as a nation. I think, again, at a normative level, we don't have a seat around the table as such at a normative level that can be really impactful in pushing for the type of change that we need to see just now. We always need fiscal space to be able to see through just transitions and they don't have it at the moment because we have a system of debt accumulation and that actually rewards and funds lines of pockets of the credit source and we have a narrative around debt that is one of the responsible borrowing as opposed to the responsible lending and that needs to change. One of the ways that we can change that is through the creation of an independent debt work-out mechanism. In the UK it's a massive debt donation as well. So an independent debt work-out mechanism can assess whether debt should be restructured, whether it should be cancelled, whether it should be by debt relief and I think that would be a really important first step and I would love to see Scotland champion that. I, in my previous job, work for a workshop to the International Monetary Fund and World Bank and the UK and Europe as a whole has a very important seat around the table with both of those extraordinarily new colonial government structures. And those institutions are really interesting illustrations I think where we're at I think we in terms of wealthy northern states in the role that we play in the international sphere and they're kind of masters of spin. And so, you know, you'll see all women panels in Davos, isn't it wonderful? And a lot of talk about inclusion and inclusive economy and sustainable economy and actually if you look at the nature of those loan conditions in the case of the IMF, they are still rooted in austerity, they are still rooted in deregulation, they are still rooted in privatisation of public services and companies. And that is fundamentally misaligned with what we need to see to actually tackle the climate and environmental crisis. So we need space for a just transition and to do that means that we need to challenge the knee jerk reaction to economic crisis management. And actually tackle that at its source as well. And just another thing to add on the international development front. One of the things that the World Bank has got really, really good at doing is utilising the language of sustainability, the programme of deepened marketisation of economies. You do that through public power partnerships. Now we have gone through PFI disasters. We have exported that model globally to low and middle income countries and they are now struggled with the contingent debt liability system. That's an energy infrastructure of schools, hospitals you name it. And we've done that through institutions like the World Bank. Similarly, there's now a push to drive maximising financial development. That's about achieving sustainable development goals and what we are seeing is a real deepening of the door to the asset management companies in that our BlackRock and Vanguard are rolling with the type of value we want to see. I don't think so. So there's also a need to call out some of this block because there's a real concerted greenwashing effort from international financial institutions in the UK has a seat at that table. We should use our voice more effectively and actually call for the type of climate justice we want to see. And last but not least, I just want to touch on trade. So the UK's training position is a little bit precarious just now. But we have played a role both as the UK and through the EU trade and work in walking low and middle income countries into many extractive trade and deals. Actually, that's a big role of power and balance but also welcome to decades of possible extraction as well. We look at the EU, Mexico, modernist trade union for example. That's a really good illustration of looking at Mexico into decades of possible extraction. So it's not about capping just one thing, it's about a systemic change and to do that we need to take to reining corporate power. We need to actually root the system in climate justice and tackle it at a multi-prong level because there's a lot going on just now. Obviously there's such a huge long history and some great points there from the other speakers but I suppose for me there's two principles about how we need to act globally. The first is First Regional Harm which covers things like debt. My PhD was based on debt and David Graves' debt for the first 5,000 years which everyone should read if you can listen to it. There was like a BBC that split up into a nice four parter if you prefer to listen to that sort of content. Debt is violence. Debt is power held over one person, one country, one group of people over another. It's a power from the house over the have not. It actually sits behind the entire way the global economy works. It sits behind our own situations and behind that debt is violence. It is backed up by the state, by armies. It's really just hiding beneath the surface. I had some great suggestions about ways that we might get through that but I also remember there was a lot of debt cancellation with the debt jubilee. There was certainly in the last 20 years but that was a full debt cancellation so they cancelled enough debt that the rest of the debt was payable so the debt would become sustainable in that sort of language. We are facing this crisis and we have historic emissions. I think there is a really clear story there to tell about debt cancellation being one of the ways. One of the things that we owe these countries, not everything we owe these countries but it is certainly that debt is in the wheel. First, there is no harm in that. That goes with trade agreements. Even back when I was doing my undergrad and my masters again, some in New Britain a long time ago, probably in the last 20 years, the stats were just absolutely staggering. The post-colonial British columns, the ex-British colonies were largely stuck in exactly the same patterns of production that they were in when we had the power and we owned those countries. So we sort of decolonised but we kept everything pretty much the same but we didn't have our responsibilities if we had any arguably there in the first place. So that first do you know harm in terms of debt, in terms of trade, in terms of how we interact with one another. That's kind of the negative part of the story. The positive part of that is about listening and learning. So the other part of colonialisation for me is this feeling that we in the West are better, that the story we are told is that the global south have to catch up to us. We are making an absolute catch up. We are one of the richest countries in the world and we've got 60% of people in this country, this year, are going to struggle to pay their energy. We have to make real difficult choices that are going to get into more debt and we are not doing as well. We are not mobile to follow. What that means is we have to listen and learn from countries who have been operating under great pressure for a long time, often through our fault in the first place. But we have to learn, we have to collaborate and actually not see it as this kind of master-server relationship. We are going to need to adapt so climate adaptation is a big, big thing that we're not talking about. We have to try and reduce our emissions but we have locked in a certain amount of warming and we need to adapt to that here. What can we learn from Africa which is much closer to the equator than we are? There's a lot of hotter places than we are. What can we learn? How can we put money into research and development in Africa, in the global south, in hotter countries, that they can sell those products and those ideas back to us? How can we be smart about how we spend money about how we take that forward? Just the final point on that base, the policy design guide that the Billy was talking about is really embedding that into the old. It really is like what can we learn about countries and countries from right across the globe about how they've got good democracies, about how they've made good decisions that are based and rooted in communities. We're really trying to learn from everybody across the world and share and innovate and collaborate together. I think that's hugely important. In one of those design guide sessions, in terms of what should we measure, which I think is a great question. I would say we have to resist any single measure of progress. I think the problem with GDP is there's lots, but it's a single measure of progress. So somehow you're mashing together a lot of different categories and giving yourself our number. There are some approaches, and again it's a diversity approach, so fair play to people who want to go down that route, but it's not my preferred opinion, because if you end up with a number and you've got a seven, are you happier than you if you've got a five? What does that mean in terms of well-being in a really substantive, real sense to people? I think it's smart to measure the things we already do measure in child poverty, how much money people have, whether people can get housing, how many homeless people have. Things like that are real things, but you're not collapsing something as complex as human well-lived lives. I think we can use measures, but then also just burn them because it's not the real lived experience, but we need to use smart measures to guide our policymaking and to guide our conversations with one another and understand where change needs to happen. In Scotland, we do have the National Performance Framework, and that is the Wellbeing Policy Guide Development. That was talked about quite a bit as one of the examples, but it's not really a great example of how you can have a load of measures that are really putting more of a well-being economy lens on it. But I think it stays to say, and Paul, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not really used enough. It's not that design guide, there's a few businesses, and they were saying in organisations that we'd love to show the government how we're fitting into this, but it's not necessarily part of the metrics of how you would get procurement, it's not necessarily part of the metrics of how funding gets allocated and budgets get allocated. So I think there's a really good, well-being example there that we have to now make it real and make it guide decision making and make it guide policy a little bit more. There's a well-being economy framework being put together at the moment, and I know there's been some of the discussions in the gas plan, and then the National Performance Framework, but it has to be more, you know, it has to be a lot of people and more. Can you want to move on to the next part of this, and we've got a half an hour later, and I see what you've been requesting, and I'll bring it in just in a while, a second, if that's okay. I think we've seen how important the national process is, we've talked about how incredibly important the global process is. I want to talk about now, and I'll bring it in just in a while, a second, and then we'll put it's kind of heads up to the panellists. It's the role of local communities, it's the role of local government, and it's the role of the voluntary sector. How do we move them towards a living country? Do they understand it? What's the role of them now doing with that because it has to be across all sectors? I'm going to ask people if there are any questions on, particularly on that, in local communities, or on local government and the voluntary sector, but I'm going to bring it in just in a way that I've learned that last time. So, climate emergency and cost of living crisis come hand in hand, which is something that's been spoke about this whole thing. Climate emergency has had young people working from the forefront. It allows to get them from a more international scale, but also young people in Scotland that dedicate their times to freeing them from future protests. Emergency and cost of living, emergency and cost of living crisis, all these words are great, but they've lost their meaning. I don't see decision makers treating it as a crisis or an emergency. I appreciate the understanding of time, but when it's too long, are we already there? Is it too late? Just for clarification, before I ask my question, when I speak about young people, I mean people aged 11 to 25, do you think that young people are listened to and taken seriously? Are voices heard specifically in climate and cost of living crisis? I think it's fair to say that the actions made by decision makers right now are going to affect myself and my friends in my generation's future. Young people's voices are so important that they cannot be ignored. What I'm going to do is ask a panel that you mentioned earlier about the question that I'm going to ask. That can be brought into the devised question in terms of that. John, I'm going to be seeing him, just in terms of John's approach that each one didn't get from John and I know each other really well, so John, thank you to you again. Thank you. Thank you for the invite. Just to my fellow audience member here, I hope that as a local councillor I think you would say this is our path. I'm a local MSP and I know one who is the leader of the S&P group that I'm very slowly and I'm a Labour member, is that we would hope to do everything and we can all listen better and we can all communicate better. I have a worry and it's around talk about systems and systems need behaviour and culture. I think there are lots of strong learning points. I'm 78 so I'm at the other end and I'm not sorry about that because I think in the 70 years that I've lived I've seen improvement and I've seen deterioration. I've lived through the NHS setting up, I've lived through better education, different systems going to university and so there are a licence in the past so I don't want to be all that critical. But if we go through change, we go through a transition and that donut economy, the life belt economy, about being safe and just. Gemma, you're talking about those who are least able to help themselves. My worry is about that transition when economically we do need to create value and it is interesting on the environment as well. When we talk about EDF and France, most important by nuclear, so there are dilemmas for all of us in this. So my question, having had a wee speech and thank you Paul, is just about the transition into a well-being economy which I support. But the fear of making those who are most affected now potentially being even more damaged, less safe and being less just and treated. I wonder if you've thought that through. OK, I'm going to say another two hands up just now. So at the first stage, how do you relate to the local community? Because we'll still have a question for another opportunity. But you want this part of it, I don't know. I'm keen to focus on local communities and local authorities at the moment. If not, I'll still take you back. I just want the panel to answer that point of view so I don't belay it back. I'm going to say welcome back to you and I'll do it for the ladies. If it's about local communities and local authorities and again I will come back to you. I'm keen to panel to address the local community and local authorities point of view. Hello, thank you. I have a small confusion. We are trying to match two things. One is the well-being. Another is the economy. Well-being is an inner status, which is natural inner status of being, which can be physical to psychological to social. Whereas economy is totally man-made. These two are basically controversial things. How are we doing to match these things? This is my basic confusion. Another thing is, we have been talking about these PhD differences in different countries, different places, within the countries the differences. But there is also a temple component. I mean, we are talking about the solution for a well-being economy. Is it for the present community or is it for the next generation? Is it for the next 10 generations? What is the condition of the posterity? We say that there is a certain community, which is able to pay for its energy bills comfortably. Because they are able to pay the energy bills after 10 generations. Because if we have the resources to meet those, then the sustainability of all these is a question mark, which we need to address. Keep it on the back of our mind if we need to be proactive for a better generation. Thank you. I don't know whether it is a question mark. I will bring it back in. I am hearing a plan on talking about the role of the local community and the role of the local government. I think the point that has been mentioned, I think that the last two speakers are in terms of the transition. We are not the next one, but we are not the next one. How do we manage that transition from where we are? I don't think there is any discreeting about the urgency to move that one as quickly as possible. It is talking about those local communities, local authorities, the voluntary sector, for example. How do we manage that transition? What do we need to do to move towards a more balanced way of income? First of all, you talked about the workers' value in terms of the partnership you have done in here. I think there is a license that we can learn from what you have done in Johannesburg. The next value is just an incredible community. I think we start with a question in our community because we are not stuck on the word well-being economy. I think it is the values and the principles that we are speaking about. What is the ends to the economy as a well-being occupant planet? When we speak to a local community who has no idea what the well-being economy is, we ask the question, what is a good life? We say ready. We ask what we say in Pakoma and ready. We reflect on that at a community level because of globalisation and westernisation and American media. If we just ask what we would like, the narrative there or the response there can be really just material things a lot of the time. But when we ask the word ready at a local level and asking people in our community what does a good life mean, ready to you at a deeper level, then we start to see things that we are speaking about around a well-being economy in terms of justice, in terms of a healthy planet, in terms of being able to eat and having a living wage where you can afford to have basic goods or dignified life. So those are the responses that we see at an inherent level and it doesn't matter who we ask at a community level, the responses at a deeper level start to become things that we are speaking about, which is amazing. And I think when you have a workshop like that or a dialogue like that and we start to get to that level, it's such a beautiful moment and a connection moment to say actually this is what we're working towards as a community. We're not just working for material well-being, but there are other things that we're working towards as well. And what then do we, how do we get around to this question? And so what we're really passionate about is saying we're not just putting the solutions out there. We are actually asking the questions from our community, allowing them to have the voice because we believe that the experts and the daily struggles that they are facing every single day, they are the ones that are most aware of what this reality looks like. So somebody in their local government office or administration like ordering doesn't really understand what's happening at a local level. And so we're really passionate about this multi-level, these sort of public-private partnerships, not just at a face level, but actually what does this mean at a local level. And so some of the things that have come out from this is really looking at local businesses, looking at circular economy practices in terms of production, in terms of how we're connecting at a local level, in terms of social enterprise. I think it's such a great, easy and understandable way to think about your business differently about the jobs you're creating within that business and how you're going to be able to create fair appointments. And so these are practical ways that we engage at a local level. And I think this thing of partnerships is really important and we were awarded this thing of a network of possibility in this crisis because it was partners coming together. And I think power dynamics exist in the world and this is where it becomes difficult when you're speaking about transitions. The power dynamics and the egos and the historic wealth coming into play is how do we address that in a room where we are all eye to eye and we really address the power dynamics. And so when you're speaking about well-being on an individual level and the well-being of a societal level, I think the two go hand in hand. You can't extract one from the other because they're impact on another. And so it's really important that we have facilitative practices in order to engage the community in a really meaningful way. And I know it sounds fluffy what I'm saying, but you know, we speak about getting to answers fast and tricky. But from an African perspective it's also so important to have healing from the colonisation that's taken place in the past or apartheid practices that have happened. There's a lot of deeper things that need to take place in order for solutions to just come to the table. And so I'm not saying that, you know, the dialogue has to be followed by action, but the dialogue is very necessary. And we speak about this term, I think it's a UK term so it's not a South African term, or a new minister prison. And because a lot of our governments in South Africa are corrupt, failing, that's what we mean in English, the local communities have also had to actually have their own active participation in citizenship. And what does that look like? Well, they're addressing a lot of the social and environmental ills through social enterprise, through NGOs, through co-ops. And this is what we've seen as humanist citizens, actually participatory budgeting happening at a local level, but people saying we are going to be active participants. And I think there's a sense of ownership that comes with that, is that we are seeing the impact of what we contribute to this community. So it's not just being beneficiaries and we're really trying to steer away from that language of this non-profit or country coming as a saviour to solve the issues of the community. Actually, how do we enable the local knowledge to flourish and for them to have a sense of ownership and say, hey, we know the answers? We speak about asset-based community development. This is really when we see kind of our answers connect to the table. And then there's really a sense of investment in terms of making those ideas work. And it becomes more sustainable because it's not just, oh, I'm just going to receive my balance and go. We've saved and has to be a combination of government relief but also active participation from the ground up. So, yeah, I would say this is kind of what's happening in the Americas Valley and the local things that are happening. We're working a lot with Coctey developers, the ULI, the Openland Institutes, actually a European organisation awarded us with this concept, which is quite controversial around gentrification with our displacement and what does that even mean, is about improving standards, increasing wellbeing in an area without making the local residents leave because Coctey prices are increasing. And so that's been such an interesting thing as well, is that how do we partner and make sure that the private sector organisations see the benefits. It's not just about the commercial value but the social value that this type of work brings impacts and actually enhances the commercial value as well. So that's kind of what's happening and I know it looks like all up. I mean, wow, what a set of questions. We're going to just start with others and then we'll keep going for the next five hours. On the wellbeing economy, so the very first question there, so it's something that we try and which we obviously haven't so far tonight, try and be quite clear that there's wellbeing in the sort of feeling of going to sentence which is very crucial and it is part of it further down the line but when we talk about wellbeing economy, we mean that kind of systems change to enable probably those inner things but there is a difference between the kind of, hey, why are you stressed, like I used to work for universities and they wouldn't pay you, they'd have you on a comparious contract and they'd be like, would you like to come to a seminar about stress? I'll do some free will but you can give me a contract. I'm teaching 140 students like political economy for a week, you know, like for a term, give me a contract instead of paying me by the hour, but they'd say go do you, so it's trying to get into that more systemic sort of roots of what an economy should be aimed at but I totally agree with the wee layla, it's not about the terms who cares if people use that term or not, it's just a way to bring those discussions about the economy being pointed at and aimed at something else, you know, so I've definitely saved that. The temporal quality question, fantastic, there's also a geographical quality question, there's a positionality sort of question in that and you know, don't have a nice neat answer for you because that question is fundamentally like a deep philosophical question about the human condition, what it means to be on earth, what legacy are. I really love, I forgot his last name, Roman, Kate Roberts husband, who's written a book called The Good Ancestor, so Kate, rather than the donor that you can imagine, they must have a fascinating kitchen table description. And it's this idea of being the good ancestor which is thinking seven generations ahead and I think that that's really important but then the question here from one of my local councillors and I'm an Italian girl now, you know, is that, don't go around, I absolutely love it, I'll talk about that in a second, but is that also, that's the same question because it's about who is served when and how and it ties into what the leader was saying about power. So at the minute in the current system, what I would sort of push back a little bit on the way your question was going was that actually the most vulnerable of the ones and we've served by this current system. So moving to something else is what we have to do to protect, not protect as we told because that, again, that sounds like sort of a patriarchal kind of thing, but is to make sure that the economy that we are building that exists now already in this current moment, so this is something that we have to think about. There isn't one dominant economy that is everywhere and every place all of the time. There are lots and lots of different economies, the way we care for each other like in Covid, there was a big care economy where the neighbours were looking after each other, you know, we ran a mutual aid group in my local area and had food parcels to people, you know, the councils were taking care of people, with no recoster, we must make profit out of this, with no recoster, well, you know, is this going to have good return? Like there are lots and lots of different forms of the economy, some of which are here and exist in the present and what we need to do is notice them, we need to grow them, we need to speak about them and to recognise them and the things that are bad and that are harming us, we need to call that out and we need to say you've had your day and actually we need to help, maybe have a just transition, so thinking about Aberdeen, thinking about all those communities, you know, the North East has never recovered from the reforms in the 1980s and, you know, the destination of the North East, it's never recovered and we don't want that in Scotland, we don't want that with communities and people, but these people also have a huge wealth of expertise, they have the skills we need to do the transition, so it's about managing that well, having the investment in the right places to take care of those and then I'm coming to the young people question and I love that you put an age on it, by the way before I wasn't trying to insinuate and distilling in this, definitely a little bit of that, but you know, we had a campaign at COP and we had teachers print it out and it was, you'll be dead in 2050 and yeah, it sounds a bit rude, it sounds a bit, but it was that point of you're making these decisions and you're not going to face the consequences of this and that's what I was saying, probably when you were a toddler or you could not go on yet because it's that terrifying, but you know, it's the same problem and I think you know young people are not listening to you but I also don't think young people should be listening to you, I think young people should have power to make decisions and I think what I learnt at COP was the global youth were very much invited in, we were invited in, we were allowed to speak to the teams and they were all brilliant, well-meaning people who wanted to get a good deal for the environment but when COP started to get a bit shaky, they just kicked us all out, we had no actual power, no actual rule other than a kind of clean watch, kind of on moving notes to the young kids kind of thing and so I think there's often either just platitudes being called or you know, you've got to put your money where you might fit, so I've seen some good examples of participatory budget and where they give the budget to the young people in areas and they decide themselves how to do it, more of that please, more of that, but also, councillors behind it ask them how do you stand, how do you become a councillor in your local library, like we need to rejuvenate local politics, there is a lot of power and there's a lot of innovation in local politics with this new municipalism, you know North Ayrshire is where you hopefully get on to, it's got some fantastic approaches to community wealth building and things like that and then you want to need to talk about local, finally just behind my local councillors because Dunbar is such an amazing place, sorry Phillip, there's Phillip and Phillip works for an organisation, well volunteers are the leader in an organisation called Sustaining Dunbar, Sustaining Dunbar have said of a community orchard, they've set up a community bakery, they've set up a community grocery, they're looking at community energy, thinking about retrofitting, thinking about continually pushing the boundaries, they didn't start with power, with a budget, with wealth, it was a group of people who got together and said we want to do something different, that community is there, that group of people is there and that's the things we need to build and kind of meet locally and I know we've just been talking about we need to meet because I want to know what your plans are, I know you're looking at local retrofitting programmes, bringing in, so there's so much we can achieve locally so keeping that global mic in that act local, think global thing, but actually, but it's really taking that power and we're running that thing and yeah, let's have this more young people just actually making decisions and having the power, not listening to them, but well do listen to them, let's just make good decisions as well, like that's what it's about. I know I didn't say a lot if that's important and just to support the point, I've also said a number of things, I've not done that, I'll take it over, I promise you. Look at the fellow that was behind there and I know fellow from another world recognition, he was doing this 15 years ago, so a big massive thanks to the fellow for what he's done, so he's been working with us, then we'll make one yourself, and once it's done, we'll bring the chaplain to the question here, so we'll do that. Can you talk a little bit about the administration and community wealth building? I don't think you just want to touch on that, I know there are points you've been talking about the role for the authorities and the Welsh families. Yeah, absolutely, so I've been lucky enough to sit on the expert panel for the ambitious community wealth building project, community wealth building, of course absolutely hand in hand, they're much better in heaven with the wellbeing economy, and it's the first community wealth building programme in Scotland, community wealth building is about a transfer of physical and financial assets to local communities and local economies, it's about pluralising businesses, local businesses, ensuring that they're actually written in the life of other local economies, again back to local economies, it's about fair work, it's about land, it's about procurement of the forum to ensure that we can create dense systems of local supply chains, and importantly as well, it has a different idea of what success looks like too, it's about the creation of how many living wage jobs we have, or how much inward investment there was for local procurement to pluralist businesses, for example, and so providing a start-up contract with the notions of what success might look like, I was compared to an Amazon warehouse where we had folks living in tents outside one of the Amazon warehouses in Scotland, they were being paid below, I believe the national minimum wage, but on paper, that's inward investment and that's local job creation, what's that to live with anyone, what's that to come back to anyone, it's extraction, and we need to get ourselves right out of that situation where the strong argument is this, it's nothing, because it's not, and actually we're really well placed, part of the genuine jobs transition is part of the genuine green industrial strategy to actually create the type of green jobs that we want to see to actually create sustainable inward investment for local economies, and to actually enable those local businesses, worker-link businesses, social enterprises, community businesses to thrive, and to do that we can't just talk about it from the ground up, we also need to talk about tackling some of that stuff at the top, for the same reason that we can't just talk about why people are poor without understanding why people are so rich just now, and we need to talk about those hand in hand, they go together, and so for community wealth building, I just want to give an example on energy just now, now obviously what we've seen recently, is high watering, so if you look at the Shells, Shell had nearly 10 billion pound in earnings in the first quarter of this year alone, and San Siugat, they're the owner of British Gas, they're operating profits of 1.3 billion in the first half of this year, and meanwhile we've seen great support in the UK living food and fuel poverty triple throughout the last year, and that's before the October price increase comes in, so this is a dire state of events, and I want to be clear that community wealth building is not about placing, but it will look like the state, it's not about the economic society nonsense, it's about actually ensuring that we're creating physical and financial transfers of assets to local economies and local communities, putting more power in their hands, and so for our version, just touching on energy because it's so integral to the possible living crisis, and as I mentioned before, the proper profits of the big six, Shell or Seneca, the list could go on, and now in your theatre what they've done, your theatre has very high levels, as a lot of course industrial leaders do, of the land, and so what they've done is the council have a plan information to build wind and solar farms that are council owned, public hands, and in that data land, if that's successful, it's going to create 277% of the council's energy needs, 277% of the council's energy needs, meaning they can sell that back to the national grid, get money back for that, and reinvest that in local economy and local community, that can go into channeling, fuel poverty reduction in North Asia. That to me is common sense, that's not common sense approach to this, and that's not how it's normally done, and so it's really about rewiling local economies, and community wealth building is about local economic systems changes, it's about that rewiling local economies, and I want to give another example as well, we've seen a real upsurge, and it's absolutely brilliant throughout Scotland with community land energy projects, and there was an example, I did a paper with a construction plan this morning, on a community wealth building approach to address transition to land, and one of the examples we looked at was a simple timeline in the Highlands, which is predicted to have a surplus generation of 4.4 million after operating financing costs that are taking into consideration. Again, if we look at how many windmills with Shell and BP have developed 4.4 million windmills in the hands of communities, so it's really about flipping a lot of this on its hedge, right? And I also want to touch on transport as well as community wealth building, so I think we're sticking with an incredible step in the right direction of the national island of Scotland, the idea that our really high rail fares will be in challenge with local shareholders, and also owned by the Dutch national government's fairways by the way that we bought, was illogical in my eyes, and I think it's an absolutely brilliant step in the right direction of the national Scotland, buses on the other hand. A REAPUP first group stagecoach, go ahead, National Express, paid out in average of nearly £150 million in year to their shareholders between 2018 and 2018, any ever creation in Scotland. If we look at the big city of Edinburgh, for example, where we have a council run bus service, and knotting on it as well, there's a few examples throughout the UK, what we tend to find is that they have better wages, is that they have lower fares, is that they actually function a lot better. When I say this to someone, it's just moving from London to Glasgow, when I'm very frustrated to keep the buses. I also want to look at land as well, as well as how you need a lot of energy, so just now you've got a bit of a perfect storm with land, and it ties so directly into the need to put a just transition as well. On the point on a just transition that was raised earlier, I think what we're getting at here is the difference between 90 as a standalone goal and a just transition. You can, you know, those fantastic work, econometric work carried out by transition economics that showed that actually Scotland could go to net zero without actually paying money jobs, without actually transforming communities, and without actually delivering the next going to be policy levers and lands of investment to secure a sustainable future for our communities just now. Or, we could have a just transition. In my eyes, that needs to be worker-led, that needs to be trade unions around the table, that needs to be actually about delivering the right levels of investment, regulatory reform, policy levers to actually secure a just transition that creates millions of good-being unions, jobs allowing them around the country and back the way they govern us as the economy. Again, a no-brainer for me. On land just now, Scotland has, and we've made an incredible headway to tackle this, particularly over the last few years, still has a very heavily concentrated land ownership, particularly in rural Scotland. It also has a very unregulated land market, and it has very favourable subsidies and tax reliefs for those seeking to green land. On paper, green land looks good, and of course green land is good, but how do we do so in that sense? This ties into the net zero versus just transition to Portugal. Scotland has become very much a tough for carbon markets, and so what we're finding, actually, is often asset management firms, big corporations are buying a lot of land to plant trees or hitland restoration, is still absentee landowners often, and actually what are the benefits there for communities? Now we look to actually democratise nature restoration, we can actually deliver good-paying local jobs, we can actually see benefits back to communities, and actually start to regulate land market in a way that actually actively curates it towards that. Last but not the least, just to say on the point when young people in those kind of authorities are going to cheat, but rent. A two-bedroom house on Ambridge in Edinburgh is £1,700 a month. Edinburgh City Centre has around 2,700 active Airbnb listings. That is driving up rent, that is fueling homelessness, and that is creating housing insecurity that disproportionate the effects of young people. So if we are looking for measures for what we can do to actually help create some security for young people, we need red controls in the long run, we've seen measures taken towards this, we need to see that implemented in the immediate time we need a rent freeze. The idea that rents are going up, well, people cannot afford to keep their homes or put them on a table as nonsense, we need an immediate rent freeze just now, this is a national crisis, and we need to deal with it, so that it deserves disproportionate, that disproportionate effect on young people. And secondly, again, last, I promise, retrofitting homes. We've seen progress in this in Scotland, we need to tackle charge that. A national retrofitting programme in Scotland creates good green jobs in every single constituency throughout the country. It rapidly reduces fuel poverty at a time of national crisis, and it rapidly reduces emissions in every single part of the country. And so that, again, will be a real intersection in the way that actions happen across the country. I'm concentrating on that, so I'm really keen to bring the question in, and I've been asked actually how much to bring in on both points, so I'm really sorry. If you want to use the question, if everybody's okay with that, I'll bring it to me in the next five minutes or so, so if you want to ask the question, then I'll ask how much to address the point and also what they're fighting to take in the future on this issue. Okay, so I'm going to finish off the event for you then. I really appreciate that you're asking the question, but it almost seems that most of the financing process is quite nice, but there is maybe a way to round it off in a way, so we've got five questions all wrapped into one. I think it's about narratives. We've heard lots of really useful solutions to how we can move to a lovely economy. I still get stuck hearing people down my local public leaf where rents are also terrible and getting worse. Hearing people talk about money and value that the word John used in a way that it doesn't work for the future that we're imagining. How do we move that narrative in average store-bogs in the public away from this idea that money in their pocket is linked to the need to have shareholders like their pocket-pockets for the conference? I can see that narrative clearly in my head, even though I know I'm with you and all the answers that you've shown today. So thanks for all the answers. No, thanks. I think just to address that point, I'll ask colleagues to address that point. You've mentioned, I think, that's an incredibly important part of the week. I'll put it to you in about 90 seconds if that's possible. I want to take away and address the point that you mentioned, but I'll make it a bit more important. How do you realise that you've talked about the how does a government always communicate? How does a government normally communicate? People see us as actually an act of analyse. So, I'm told that when you come to yourself and then to them and then after, it's not going to matter. We've given it 90 seconds, of course, but I'm not sure that's a challenge for everyone. That is a challenge for everyone. I love narratives, and I come from the advertising and marketing world, where this is so important. Obviously, I left because of the negative impacts. But the staff that we have is at the Wellbeing Economy Alliance, is bold, vital and entirely possible. And I think I love that because we're coming to this conversation with a positive kind of mindset in terms of we can. It's not something that's just like too hard to figure out. We know this is a wicked problem, but we can't think of solutions together. And I love the fact of bringing the ordinary joke, the term that you used, to the conversation. So, these conversations, these platforms, these dialogues need to be in different spaces. It needs to be in the spaces, in the pubs, wherever it is, where people are, where they, you know, let's have the conversations there. So, COP26, there was a common ground music festival, and the Wellbeing Economy Alliance was there, speaking about economic systems change, at a music festival, which was absolutely incredible. And using the power of graphic design, videography, podcasting, and social media, you know, we say, like even though it's not something we want to advocate, but we really want to use the good that comes from social media in terms of talking about this in the ordinary world, in the places where normal people congregate. And these channels are really important for us, and using topics that are quite vital at the moment. Speaking about inflation, so our social media team are going to do a narrative around that and post it next week around, this is something that's really, really at the heart of normal people at the moment, and how do they see inflation, and they talk about the economy, and what is the narrative around that? It's simple, easy to understand language, that's not academic, that's not on the paper, but really just tangible and easy to reach accessible. So, yeah, that's not it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm a massive policy nerd, and I'm always getting called out for speaking in jargon, rightly so. However, I will say a couple of things, so I think when I worked, I was working at Think Tank, and one of the things that we noticed, basically, was that there's a massive limitation to how many people are going to read a 30-page report, even though I love 30-page reports. Actually, what we ended up doing instead, was making lots of videos, of doing social media infographics, of doing webinars instead, and posting those on our page. I think it's about finding those different channels of communication, to actually reach different audiences, and the way that you speak, and the way that you frame things, depending on who that target audience is, it needs to completely shift. The other thing I'd say, not everybody's going to understand the lines about how these economic systems change, is because not everybody exists in that field of work. I don't think, you know, people will understand that the economy is not working for people, and I think there's a way in which we can put that across to actually speak to them in that way, to understand that they're being hard done by here, and the other, and that there's people laughing at themselves. And there was a report that I worked on, it is a report that is not long information. It's called Frame in the Economy. It was many months ago now, I think it was in 2015 or 2016, and it was with a group called New Economy Organisers Network, Neon, and it's called Frame in the Economy. It actually does huge amounts of testing of what frames work for folk, and what does just not work at all. And it gives loads of concrete ideas for what we can say instead when we're talking about climate change, when we're talking about economic crises. And I think that's been a really helpful document to encourage a shift in that. Yeah. Just delete and talk about Frame in the Economy. I'm making this up somewhere. No, no, no. I was just like straight about it. Yeah. So I think the biggest enemy of progress is the magnetism of the state of school. It is so easy to think of what currently is is the natural order of things. That this is how things happen, and anything from that is radical or an aberration. I think what we're living through at the moment and what we're going to go through in the next few years particularly is the awakening that what we're living in, that economic system is extraordinarily radical. It pushes people to the extremes. Like, you know, I remember a few years back and my son was really small and I think he was about two. And there was that photo of that little boy in London City and he washed up on the shore. He was faced down like mine now, and he washed up on the shore. And we have not moved since that moment. That is horrific. That is absolutely horrific. And the current political narrative is turn them back in the boats. You should send them home. Let them drag and prosecute people for rescuing human beings. And, you know, we should be outraged at the way that the world is incredibly structured. You know, unequivocal in really fighting for something different. And in terms of narratives, everyone's lower than that is horrific. There was a moment where that goes through but it's brief and it's fleeting when it happens. And what we're going through now we need to use this moment well. And your question is a fantastic one. But I think it's I always, because I'm a wonky epidemic as well, I always want to explain the problem but let me sit and give you a lecture on how we're going to act. We need to stop doing that so much. We need to just say this is the common sense solution to this. And you're in good homes, good jobs, good lives. That's what we need to do. Scrub the the ways that our imaginations of what's currently possible is trapping us into the lives that Westford needs to live. And let's really just ask questions being bold. And we need to ask if ourselves is enough. You come on from where you're tired. You know, once the kids are in bed, I've got my mum goes now. I'm just absolutely exhausted but you've got to somehow keep pushing on and forward. And it is possible and we need to be bold with it because people are suffering and dying. But there is another way. So let's get these, this group of young people here, let's get them in power. It doesn't mean that it's all up to you because that's the only thing you need about young people. But you know that people treat young people as like we'll just kind of, we'll mess it up and we'll just let you mix it a bit later. So let's get those people into power. And let's start where people are. So the final point on that is we all reached out to visit through the pandemic and I know there's been work going on working with the Scottish Football Association. They want to talk about how they are centered in communities all across Scotland. They are part of the community of the children and the young people of the parents who are coaches. This isn't and shouldn't be an academic exercise from a policy wonky circle. This has got to be about how people live their lives and why sport is critical and why these centres of places are good places to start conversations about where people are and what needs to happen. So everything's there but just reject the status quo just wherever you can just push for something more human and brilliant. Thank you for that. I'm conscious of the time so it's a really important one to finish. I just want to close with a few thoughts more. One of us will talk to the reports of the beginning of global change that I've been asking for. We talked about the Scottish Government asks for bodies into local communities and then reports that. I just want to say a few thanks and I thank Scotland and the National Government Alliance and we're going to be ready for global change for a global event. This event has been fantastic so many thanks to them. First we are going to do a report discussion and I'm sure we can sit here and talk but it's not going to be particularly as well. So I'm going to give you a sit here and dip in with a massive thank you