 Hi everyone and welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020 where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So as always we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Behel. Anvita as you know is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. So Anvita today I have a fascinating question for you. It's a question actually that I have been fascinated by and I've been waiting to discuss this with you because I really want to know more. So it's from a young lady who is in a relationship and she and her partner are living together and she says that it's a really good relationship, it's a good partnership between them, everything else is fine. She says that her partner really really likes to do the foreplay thing. So he can spend four to five hours kissing her, kissing her everywhere, really pleasuring her which is fantastic but and here comes the big problem. She says that at the end of those four, five hours which I think most women listening to that would be so, so jealous because it's like amazing but she says that at the end of those four, five hours he doesn't want sex. So he wants it to stop just with that and she said if she lets him he would probably carry on even further but after four or five hours when she wants sex he doesn't want sex and that if she ever gets really, really aroused and wants to do the same thing to him he won't allow her to kiss him or pleasure him in the same way. I am really intrigued by this particular question and it is an interesting question because I think it is you know something that we've spoken about all the time this idea that when we go through denial it's said to you that in one of the books an author had described it as saying that you know when somebody goes that love making is starter to desert and desert is the penetration and we don't go for it and you know this is an example of someone saying they're not interested in desert at all and somewhere we have made sex synonymous to penetration in some ways. So there are lots of things that I'm thinking about so let's discuss them slowly as a response to this answer. First is that it's okay to have a choice where you don't like penetration and there's some people who don't like it so we can just leave it as he's someone who doesn't like it but more importantly what I would like say if they were a couple that came into my therapy room what I would really cycle what psycho education I would give to them is that a sexual experience is not just physical it's not only about sex it's not biological it's not physical there is an emotional angle to it as well as a psychological piece to it so it's emotional psychological the relationship is involved and so one of the first hypothesis that I would start with is is there a sexual problem that he is dealing with because you know there might be so much worry or anxiety that if he penetrates then that there might be an erectile problem or there might be rapid ejaculation or that it might hurt him or that he might not be able to perform so there might be performance anxiety that he might not be able to orgasm or help the woman orgasm when he penetrates like men have as many worries in some ways so I would really explore if there are any fears or worries that this man is carrying with him in some ways like that would be my first point of exploration you know it's interesting because I think it sounds so logical and sounds such a simple thing to say that yes you know that they should actually discuss this and come up with what is stopping him because there's obviously something stopping him but I realized often the person who is feeling something so in this case the male the man in the relationship he is feeling it he doesn't want to do it but maybe he can't actually articulate the answer maybe he can't actually say it because so often it's fairly deep buried in us in our psyche we can't actually say it out loud so sometimes sounds really simple is well two things firstly he might not know it himself you know once I had a case and there was a newly married couple and they just avoided sex and it turned out you know what we were treating for a reptile problem or something or lack of libido it turned out was that the man had had a horrible first experience he had been unable to perform the first time he had tried sex and since then he was never able to perform sex and it was really tight to his masculinity and you know what does it mean to be a man and not being able to perform and it was very complex but what I'm trying to say is that sometimes men might not realize that what a bad experience can do you know so it might be something that happened in his you know first sexual experience in his childhood sometimes it is something that they have visually seen and they don't want to do it again um you know it in a bizarre sort of way I have heard stories and this is not from my experience but sometimes children see adults performing sex and they've visually see it as like a horrific thing you know when a massive penis is penetrating and that visual stays with them and somewhere deep down it feels very scary to them to perform that so there could be so many reasons what I'm saying is that they could be I could come up with stories after stories of what might be might have happened but we don't know what happened in this case so firstly that the man might not know that that is something that is in his past but two he might be aware but it is way easier to avoid penetration and sex to actually admit that he has a problem to actually admit to somebody so that's where the trust in the relationship comes up because it's really scary to admit to somebody that they might have a sexual problem or they might so it's easier for them to make the partner believe they don't like it than to actually admit that oh actually I have a problem because then the fears of will the partner leave me because I have a sexual problem this way at least it's like oh I don't like it and at some day you know that they believe that the partner might have hope that someday they might change their mind but if you are staying with the belief that you actually can't do it then it's a really scary thing for them to share and that's why the trust and intimacy where you know they understand and they realize that you know the partner would stay like the partner is not there for the penetration the partner is there because of them and their relationship I guess also if they were to say it if somebody was to articulate it there's also a way of then slowly working through the problem of working past it but this whole idea of silence and yeah I guess it's it's it's a real problem so I was just thinking I mean this young lady had written quite a detailed email and I smiled at one point because she said don't get me wrong you know I'm like any other woman I love the long foreplay and then she went on to say that he has a particularly wide tongue and that did bring a smile to my face that's a particularly wide and powerful tongue so you know there's there's a lot happening with it but it just goes to show I mean I can pinpoint from all the messages we get how many women would say to us this would be ideal this would be perfect this is all we want but you know there is always you know there's always a problem there that we haven't quite envisaged and we don't or else I don't know I mean I was just thinking in terms of also if somebody does bring you to arousal we've always said women take that much longer and somebody spent four or five hours arousing you you truly are at that point when you want something and then it feels even more frustrating because you're not getting it so what is the way forward what do you do well so my thought was going to be that one does she really want penetration you know once again this is an assumption that we make that penetration is equal to sex so the question is and I'm not saying women don't want penetration what I'm saying is is it something that one has imagined that that's what sex should look like or is that genuinely something she wants like she's enjoying four five hours of hopefully and she's really liking it so is it because somebody said penetration is sex that she's wanting it or is she really wanting would would an oral sex be sufficient so I think from from her email definitely I mean she said that she has mentioned that he won't do this which leads me to believe that it's something she's asked for and it hasn't come and I also know from past experience of talking to people and just you know knowing the female of the species you know talking to other women I know that when you get to that point of arousal which you would after you know five hours of foreplay I think you know most women would be in a good place I think this is something that a lot of people would want to move towards it's it's a very automatic sort of desire a lot of the times maybe not every time but a lot of the time so is there some way around so there is all I'm saying is that we know most women do not orgasm with penetrative sex and oral sex sometimes gives them more surety of orgasming and so do you want the penetration don't you want to penetration is that something you're saying because that's how you see sex or genuinely that's your need that's all that I'm establishing if it is genuinely your need let's go with that assumption and your partner is not interested in it I think that's where you go and seek help and try having a conversation because how we would you know see it is is that is there something wrong sexually with the partner in the sense like is there a problem so is there a sexual problem is there a difference difficulty the whatever is there a psychological problem like I gave examples of like he is you know has had bad experiences before and you know it could be something about I was just thinking about the kissing it could be as small as he kissed a girl when he was 16 and she turned around and said your mouth smells and since then he has felt like oh my god my mouth smells so I can't kiss anybody ever again it's interesting you should bring that up because actually one of the points in the messages that he won't kiss her on the mouth he kisses her all over the rest of her body but not on the mouth so exactly so you know it could be something that has happened so we would explore if it is psychological or emotional three we would explore is there something in the relationship right like is there something he's holding back is he not giving it what is happening you know so we would explore the relationships issues in some ways like what is happening in the relationship and finally say everything is prim and proper check on emotions check on psychological sex and physiology check on everything then we would come to the point of their two partners who like having sex differently and how are we going to work with it right so one partner wants penetration and one partner doesn't like penetration so how are we going to work with this and that is something then we would work with the couple saying you have different likes and dislikes actually how are you going to compromise and how are you going to make this work in a relationship my god it's also complex when you think about it you know like yeah you know in the kamasutra when vatsayan says that people have different sizes of sexual organs and for really good sex really pleasurable sex it is important to synchronize the sizes and which is why he then creates these positions because he says with different types of positions you can actually adjust the sizes to fit each other properly because that's the first thing and this is just I mean it's like 10 steps deeper into that same point he doesn't deal with psychological issues and he doesn't deal with emotional issues otherwise I would have loved to hear what vatsayan the kamasutra would have written about saying well if two people like to have sex differently how do they bring it together and I actually was thinking when you spoke about sizes I remember somebody had written to you and said that they are very big and they feel they will hurt their partner and that's why they don't want to penetrate and you know we don't need to always see it as a point of like arrogance or something it might be a genuine fear of a man that you know a partner in the past might have said oh you've hurt me or they might have bled or something might have happened and they might be holding on to that fear that you know they genuinely will hurt a partner if they penetrate so you're right like how do you overcome these differences I'm thinking about the relationship you were saying when I was saying about holding back you were saying it could be a form of control as well right I think that that is one option I mean it is it's nice to think that maybe it's a more sensitive person I mean it's a problem either way so it is something that needs to be dealt with but it's nice to think that it could be from a more sensitive standpoint or maybe a psychological standpoint but yeah it could also be this thing about control that I will do you will merely be the one that receives and that's not so unheard of either except that this whole thing about the penetration which to me is slightly unusual I think when it comes to men because I think most guys do like the idea of penetration I'm not saying all guys but certainly most men and it's women who are more kind of uncertain about it because most women as you said don't necessarily come to orgasm during penetration but I think that it's unusual for men to not want it so and obviously in this case again you know like I said I didn't read out the whole email to you and I'm bringing it out a little bit but right at the time she also says that he's never come in her presence so you know yeah so you know as in there could be issues of control once again then that would be relationship to understand what is happening and the idea is of what are you holding back and what are you giving right and why are you holding it back and that's what we explore what I did think about from what you were saying and we spoke about this one of the things to always explore is the myths around the vagina a lot of women hold the myth that vagina is a dirty place it's a very interesting concept like men I have rarely heard men talk about their penis as a dirty place or you know people should not go down on them and it's like where we urinate from and everything but a lot of women have this hesitancy of oh I can go down on a man but a man can't go down on me because it's it's not clean it's not you know it's it's it's dirty and they stop their partner on going down on them but at the same time there are people who have big issues OCDs or psychological problems of obsessive compulsive disorders around fluids and because they have issues around fluids they don't like the texture of the vagina they feel they're going to be exchange of fluids and that freaks them out and then they don't like going into the vagina actually because they like the ideas of our hygenes and OCDs obsessive compulsive disorders and they have a big issue around fluids and hygiene and everything and they don't like to enter vaginas so you know there's so many possibilities in some ways of how come he doesn't want to penetrate but it's something he needs to reflect on and he needs to find the courage to share if she's finding it so frustrating like he needs to find somewhere the trust and courage to actually share with her what's going on so you know when you said earlier about here are two people who like to have sex in different ways it's if you if you bring it down to brass tacks I mean the most basic thing that is what it is and we did a couple of things earlier on BDSM where one partner really wanted it and the other one didn't and we talked about if you know you have two people with two diametrically opposite ideas to the same act how are they going to find that common ground and how they're going to come together do you have any suggestions in this case for these two yeah so I think it is like I'm saying it's exploring and talking and one partner saying okay I'm willing to do this much or you know there's a lovely exercise that we do sometimes in therapy rooms is that where every partner gets a sexual wish on one day like Monday is the wife's the Tuesday is the husband's Wednesday is the wife's and everything and what we normally say is that it has to be a very it's not as big as oh I wanted to BDSM or I want to have you know a certain kind of sex or whatever it's more like I you know I want to hold hands today or I want to kiss today or I want to forplay today it's like it's much smaller ass but the deal basically is that you can refuse and say one thing less like if somebody says I want to kiss you can say I won't kiss but I will hug but you always have to give something on that day so you can request so one option is to try doing that like you know to request and the partner can always maybe say I won't penetrate but maybe I'll allow you to have oral sex with me right and you build up like that in some ways depending on what the psychological issue is if that can be resolved in some ways I know some people who have hygiene issues around the vagina tend to have anal sex because they feel more comfortable with that than the vagina I'm not saying I think it's a I think if it's an informed choice it's different but it's like oh I have an issue so I'm going to go to anal sex I find a little bit problematic because I feel like you need to have resolved your issue and meet it as a choice rather than just a you know copping out strategy basically but I would just you know I think it's important to explore what your sexual desires are and definitely as in this woman has asked him for penetrative sex and he has said that he doesn't like it but it's okay for her to push a little bit more to say why not you know and that's my desire so what and then she needs to compromise like say they might have penetrative sex one day but they might not have it the next day so finding you know ways for both in some ways is the ideal thing I think I like that exercise and I think that that's something that's really useful from the way that I'm sort of visualizing how maybe they could use it so I think that yeah that definitely should be something that they can actually negotiate on so if it's like one day one person gets to make the choice and the other day the next person you know keeping in mind like you said that nobody goes too over the top so you don't kind of go to extremes and say okay I want to swing from the ceiling fan and do this with you it's like something small because we all have to remember that when we're trying to overcome a problem it has to be with baby steps you can't sort of go wild and say you know brush away everything and I really want to emphasize the point because the exercise is used more to build intimacy you know for people who are not having sex and it's to build baby steps of like holding hands or hugging or kissing it's not it's not a replacement of like we were saying that somebody has kinks and they want to impose them or you know have like you know that they have different sexual fantasies and they have to impose it so do what feels comfortable just because and like I said you can always refuse you just have to offer something back in return which can be less than and that could be giving a hug or giving something you know and it has to be less than but it is like it can't be in extremes it has to be baby steps on the way if you can get help that is better and then they will guide you through such exercises and such ways of communication and that might be more helpful in some ways than trying to do it on your own so I think in closing what we are saying is that it could well be that he is refusing to have a penetrative sex or refusing to kiss her in the mouth or refusing to let her do anything to him because maybe it is a trauma from past times that he's going forward maybe it's something that he cannot articulate maybe it is and he's choosing not to but the first step would be that it would be good if they could actually sit down and try and have a heart to heart if not with each other then maybe with some help but I do know that a lot of people when it comes to something like this they feel it's part of personal and they don't really want to go and discuss it with somebody else as you know so many of the questions that come to us people say don't mention my name you know it's just that that fear of other people knowing what's happening with you but if everything else is not really working and this is a nice gentle non-intimidating sort of role play that you can do where every day on alternate days you get different you know each partner gets to pick something that they would like to do something small a baby step I think that that might really work well towards at least some part of solving this particular problem and I can almost hear our female audiences the women and our audience is saying oh my god what wouldn't I give to have this and I guess what I want to say is that yes it does sound amazing because well five hours of foreplay is most women's dream not everybody's certainly most women's dream but I guess things aren't always as amazing as they sound because somebody always wants something else yeah and the only thing I would say is that even if you're trying the exercise or trying other things if it is a genuine fear or say it's coming from a trauma and if we flip side you know and if it was a woman who had vaginismus and wasn't able to have penetrative sex or anything we would never say or push your way through or you know do this exercise and in one day you know he asked for penetrative sex then you have to give it to him if it is a genuine fear if it's a genuine anxiety then we will make situations worse by asking for it because we are basically triggering the fear or anxiety the way to relieve anxiety and pressure is to take that situation out of it like I've said that when we have erectile dysfunction we actually say only foreplay no penetrative sex so don't introduce things that actually will make the situation worse so I really do think that the way to start with it is reflection and providing a non-judgmental space to the partner to actually say if there is and maybe they will say if they say oh this is just how I like it then it's okay to say but I like it differently so how can we compromise on this and I think that the main takeaway should be that sometimes it can happen that two people like to have sex very very differently most people have different likes anyway different likes and dislikes sometimes it can be extremes where the way that you enjoy sex is very very different like we've said in the case of BDSM and things which is somehow when you mention something like that people can understand why things could be so different in a gentler situation like the one that we brought up it's difficult to understand how your desires could be so different so most people probably find that a little bit unusual to think of but it still all comes under this idea of the act of sex or the act of intimacy in some way or the other and things can be very different for very different people so I think it's really it's it's been a really interesting question for me just to remind myself even though we work in the field to remind myself that how differently people can look at the same thing and even when it seems so obvious it never is that yeah desires can be very very different and out of the box absolutely and also I think we are so old that penetrative sex is the only way of having sex and I would really you know want to question that I know that's not because that's just the way how sex is sold to us to men and women and it would be interesting to you know think about is that is it is it really the only form of pleasure and can you actually have a really pleasurable sexual experience for that penetration if it's your choice definitely something to think about and I think as we say bye I'd like to even suggest to people who generally enjoy having sex in the same way or similarish way maybe just to spice up your sex life maybe actually try it very differently you know a lot of people do write in and say what can we do to make things exciting why not instead come up with a game where on alternate days you come up with something different that you want to try with your partner just which is fantasy yeah alternate fantasies like you know yeah absolutely it is fun and you will spice it up and it will get people thinking about sex which will arouse them even more and sex life will be better there you go well I certainly hope that if you've listened in that you found this very useful because I started this particular session off with a very different idea in my head and Anvita you've actually made me think very differently about it you've taken me into a whole different space and I really have found this discussion fascinating personally speaking I really have so thank you for that and if all of you out there have enjoyed listening to it do like comment subscribe on the video as you know we're here for you to get in touch with if you want to send in your questions I am on info.seema.anand at gmail.com and if you need to get in touch with Anvita about therapy or about consultation she is on anvita.madanbehel at gmail.com and the spellings are down in the text below we hope that you're staying well through this still very difficult time continue to look after yourselves be very safe and we will see you here soon