 Hello, everyone. My name is Jeremy Eaton. I'm the design director at Double Edge Theatre, and it is truly a pleasure today to welcome all of you to a live conversation with surrealist scholar Susan Abarth and Double Edge's artistic director and founder Stacey Klein. They will be discussing the work of surrealist Leonora Carrington in preparation for a broadcast and online world premiere streaming of Double Edge's Leonora La Maga y La Maestra on March 14th at 8 p.m., which was filmed at Peak Performances in Montclair State University in partnership with All Arts. We really hope you will all tune in and watch that broadcast, which you can do at allarts.org slash peak dash hd. And also please post questions for this conversation in the comment section of the live stream through our Double Edge Facebook page. Before we start, I'd also like to say a huge thank you to HowlRound for live streaming this conversation today. And without further ado, I'd like to turn it over to Susan and Stacey. Wonderful. Well, Stacey, it's a great pleasure for me to be here today and share with you my great adventures with Double Edge Theatre over the last few years. It has been truly an exciting and learning experience for me. And I have to say, as I got to know the directors, the actors, and all the many people who make their magical performances come alive, my admiration and respect for them grew and grew. So that's why it's so wonderful to be here today. I think I will share the screen with you a little bit. Hold on. There we go. Well, we can look at the beautiful Leonora Carrington as I continue my introduction. So I want to say that research into Leonora Carrington is still burgeoning. There are many wonderful new scholars creating all kinds of works on her. They're artists inspired. And it's truly, in the past, I'd say 10 years, almost a global industry and nothing could possibly make me happier than that. And I'll just introduce myself a little bit beforehand and say that in the mid 90s, I first was introduced to the artist in New York City. And I wrote my PhD dissertation on her. And the dissertation was expanded into a book in 2004. And you see the cover there, Leonora Carrington, Surrealism, Alchemy, and Art. And it was the first book to come out exclusively on her. I made sure that it was affordable and many people could purchase it, and they did. And you can see the photograph that I treasure of Leonora and myself seated. And in the background, the daughter, Nora, of another great female Surrealist artist, got the ordnance. And I spent about 10 years on and off visiting Leonora and sitting in this kitchen and learning from her. And I have to say that I learned a lot more about her artwork. She taught me many things about being a feminist, being brave, sticking up for the oppressed. And most of all, she taught me that the environment and saving the environment is of paramount importance. And it's intertwined with feminism and even magical practices. So she was my great, great mentor, and I am forever grateful to her. And I'm also grateful to all the scholars I've met along the years who have also shared with me Leonora, her wonderful family, so generous, and many, many other people. Then recently, just in the end of 2020, my Mexican co-researcher and writer, the curator, De De Arc, and I produced a book on Leonora Carrington's tarot cards. And I want to say that it was De De Arc who was doing research for her great retrospective exhibition on the artist who made the exciting discovery of her major arcana tarot cards. This really changed our perception of the artist. And together we worked really hard researching and we kind of rethought her whole body of work in light of her interest in the philosophy behind the tarot. And this actually worked really well with Double Edge's interest in Jewish mysticism. Well, moving on. For those of you who may not know much about Leonora's biography, her biography is theatrical in the extreme. I'm sure right now there is a biopic being made somewhere about it or will be soon because it really reads like a page turning thriller. These are two photographs of her home in England. It was quite a mansion, Crookie Hall, and she was the daughter of an industrialist in the textile industry. She was presented to the court of King George. And here we see her in her beautiful debutante outfit. She looks very placid and nice in this picture, but she was anything but. She had been kicked out of numerous private girls schools and was quite incorrigible from a young age. She went to art school shortly after her coming out to society, where she very soon after one year met the visiting artist Max Ernst, the great surrealist, who was in London for an exhibition he was having. It's quite the story the two met and fell madly in love and very soon she left England forever really and went with him to live in Paris. It wasn't so simple. He was on his third marriage. She was 20. He was 46. There was a lot of scandal and problems with it. And I'm also showing you this beautiful photograph taken of Lee Miller and Eddie Fiddling and Nush Elwar with Leonora Carrington at the bottom because as soon as she moved to France, she joined the surrealist circle. They were enchanted by her and she fit right into their notions of magical women. Well, they were very happy together and they purchased a home in the countryside of France. We can see Leonora here holding hands with her friend, the great surrealist artist Leonor Feeney, who has that long blonde wig. And she was leading an idyllic life with Max Ernst. They were very happy when all of a sudden he was interned as an enemy alien in a French concentration camp. It was 1938. The war was breaking out and tragedy was going to disrupt their happiness. She began to experience some mental instability and a friend of hers picked her up and drove with her. She was afraid that she should remain in France and they were going to drive to Portugal to leave. Meanwhile, Max Ernst got out of the prison camp, came back. She had sold the house. He rescued what he could. And here is a photograph of him and other surrealists in the port of Marseille desperately trying to sell their artwork in order to collect passage to leave before they would be probably exterminated by the Nazis. Leonora had a tragic situation in Portugal or, I'm sorry, in the north of Spain. She experienced a psychotic break and she was placed in a mental asylum in Santander, Spain. And there she underwent some very unpleasant treatments with thorazine. And her parents planned to send her away maybe to South Africa. I'm not sure about that story, but she escaped and a Mexican administrator by the name of Renato Laduke agreed to marry her in order to carry her to safety. And they escaped to New York City where she once again met with Max Ernst, from whom she had been separated, who is now married to Peggy Guggenheim. So this is a photograph of Peggy Guggenheim's home, which was also an art gallery. And here's Leonora with of all people Fernand Leger, Duchamp is in this picture, Mondrian and many other famous artists. And she was a part of that whole milieu. There she also befriended Kurt Seligman, the surrealist, painter and also writer. And his book, The Mirror of Magic, would be a great influence on her work and thinking. And he was quite theatrical as well. And I just wanted to show you this great photograph at the opening of his book. He he actually created a magic circle and stood within it as a kind of ritual setting. At the end of 1942, beginning of 1943, her and her Mexican husband relocated to Mexico City, where there was a large surrealist emigre enclave, Benjamin Perre and her soon to be great friend, Remedios Varro. And it was there that she experienced a kind of a revival of all her interests in magic, in mystery religions, and her and Remedios would go to the witches market, and I'm showing you a scene from it, two scenes from the witches market. And I think this is where we're going to now move into Double Edge Theater, where I was invited. Stacey, I'll let you take it away. So we invited Susan to come at the pretty almost beginning of our process on Leonora, and to share with us all of her interpretations, knowledge, wisdom about not only about Leonora's paintings, but how they intersected with her life, her books, her and magic in general. So, and actually, we were also working on Alejandro Hodorovsky and a fictitious, we thought, relationship between Hodorovsky and Leonora with Leonora as his mentor and discovered later on after we thought we were making up something really crazy and exciting that they actually had worked together making plays in Mexico City. So that is where the real meets the fiction, I think. So Susan, when she came to my office, which is this picture, she brought a cutting from very small cutting from Leonora's house, a plant in Leonora's house that she had brought back with her. And we wanted to show you this plant now, because it's taken over my whole office and become a monster plant. So we think that Leonora enjoys our performance work that we're creating together. Yes. Well, to pick up, Leonora was always interested in the theater. And while she was in Paris and in France, she began to write plays and not all of these plays have been published. And I hope someday soon there is a big publication of all her theatrical work. It's a great area of study for future scholars and by no means an expert on it. And in 1957, she worked with her good friend, the great Mexican writer Octavio Paz, on a play on a piece of literature by the American Nathaniel Hawthorne called Rappuccine's Daughter. And I found a lot of archival photographs of that. They worked together really well. They were great friends their whole lives. And you can see that she was a really an important set decorator. The background sets are hers, the bed, the people. And she also did costumes. She did other stage sets. I don't have photographs of various Shakespeare plays, like the Tempest. But the most interesting performance perhaps of all was a production of her play, Penelope, that she staged with Alejandra Hodorowski in Mexico City in 1961. And you can see at a glance how very extraordinary the stage sets are, the costuming, you can see tarot card imagery of like the hangman and the ace of wands in the background. And yeah. So also throughout her uvra in my studies, I've found so many costumes. Things are always coming up for auction. Stage sets, again, I am not an expert in Leonora Carrington's theatrical productions. And I hope people right now are working on this fantastic topic. But you can see how very fanciful they are, how original, how beautiful. And also she did paintings that all her work is theatrical, but there are specific paintings that show theaters with a stage and curtains and theater boxes. And unless you start to get complacent and think that these are normal theaters, if you look more closely, vines are growing, trees are growing, animals are sitting in the boxes, human animal hybrids are dancing, and the space is opening up into magical spaces. It's like a ritual theater. Although that's how theater should be. Well, I think this is where Stacy and I began to truly think about Carrington in relationship to what a contemporary theater director can do with her work. And I think this beautiful overview of the stage compared to one of Carrington's paintings was a good entry way into the topic. Yeah, I think that I wanted to include this painting. I think it's called Elementals, because it was really the beginning of our work with the design part of the performance. We even actually built that bridge there in steel, and we used it in the opening performances we had until we realized that it would take an extra truck to tour it around. So that was eliminated, and it became what you see in the bottom. But also these doors that are these three little doors with people in them that are underneath the lower bridge, that was a kind of dive into this idea of cordals and secret doors and people and animals being all over the place. So really, these kind of paintings were how the set was designed by Michal Curriata. And then it was further worked on the stairs that we picked from several different images of Leonora. Michael Fitzgerald engineered to be exactly the same, and we had to actually have the actors work for hours on how to walk on a surrealist staircase because they're not even. But we needed to have that reality of hers. We couldn't just fake it. So the whole design we attempted as we melded with her work, we attempted to take from her and see how it affected our movement, our psyche, our magic, our creative process. And the same with the costumes. The costumes almost all came from multiple Leonora images, some of which like Susan, you would point out, I remember specifically you pointed out the Hasid and the trio of men and things like that. So we tried to adapt all of these things. So we created a world in which the actors could find their world, their own world. Well, before I move on to the next image, if we can look at this, and I'm sorry, it's so small, we'll see larger ones. One of the characteristics of Carrington's paintings is that they team with activity. Figures are moving all around. There's water, there's land, there's sky, there's different elements, there's animals, there's different climates. And a great narrative is implied, but it is never clarified. So great things are happening that are very mysterious, there's ritual gestures, and it's such a magical landscape and so unique that I think it was a challenge to try to replicate this on stage. And I think that these details of aspects of her paintings can kind of help you to see how beautifully Stacey integrated Carrington's vision into the work. I think we've talked about this before and I think you got a lot, there was a lot more than you bargained for studying Leonora. You just kind of fall down the rabbit hole of her world, you enter into it and you see more and more detail. So you can see how the state, always there are these little stairs and movement from one place to another, which is not just a physical movement, it's psychological movement, it is magical movement, it's emotional movement, and I think you were able to do that. Also I wanted to just briefly say that Leonora learned a lot, not just from the Surrealist, but from Italian Renaissance painting. In her great masterpiece, The House Opposite, for example, she takes lessons from Trecento painting in particular with utilizing what we call the cutaway, it's like you open the wall into a multi-chambered dwelling and there's passage from one chamber to another chamber. Each chamber is a magically separate place, things are happening and there is a sense of liminality and of course liminality has always been associated with the theater and creating a kind of magical time space. What do you say about that, Stacey? Yeah, I think it is, for me it's like finding my inner being. I think that kind of dimensionality and not just the scene, the dimensions of seeing, but the dimensions that you can't see are really important to the way that I create work and that the ensemble, the double edge ensemble creates. So for us it was like looking at what we were creating, how we create and given the freedom to actually go there without having to worry about does this make sense, does that make sense? Right, so for example we see three women stirring a cauldron and one figure moves through into this space, people drop through trap doors all throughout it. This looks like a dream sequence, people are in bed perhaps dreaming and again it's a kind of a psychic space. There were certain paintings that were very influential I think to your production and one of them was this painting which is a very early 1939 self-portrait of the artist as a young woman and it's extraordinary for multiple reasons but the elements that double edge took out were in particular the window and again the importance of portals opening up into other spaces, totem animals, freedom running, levitation and then Leonore herself this kind of very powerful female figure in the center kind of orchestrating it all. And the horse and the hyena, the horse and the hyena as we shall see. So you can see immediately how this window has been incorporated, the horse itself has been incorporated and what was your thoughts about doing that Stacy? We knew we had to have the window right from the beginning also because the meeting between Hodorovsky and Leonore, the written about that by him refers to her in the window and I also had the pleasure of seeing her house from the outside and then seeing a film while we worked and the windows were so prominent. So I think the idea of her in the window, this is Jennifer Johnson, our Leonora or just Leonora, everyone's Leonora was really important to us and then we worked with the horse which was always important, the idea of escape, the idea that she has the hobby horse and the horse escaping was really important to us, important in many ways but mostly as a woman, the whole process of her journey of escaping, the chains that were around her for many different reasons. So that was important and then the window had multifunctions, we used it in other scenes as other things in her painting so it became more of a portal than just one specific window. Well if I may just go back briefly, this is Carrington's great coming-of-age painting where she shows herself as a fully grown sexualized being, of course the hyena refers to a wonderful short story she wrote called The debutante that stars her hyena whom she's friends with and this hobby horse, this rocking horse of her childhood morphs into this other horse escaping and the curtain window is representative of the normative feminine boudoir right that she grew up in and her escape from it as Stacy said and I just want to say a few things. One of my first advice to them was the costuming of Leonora herself and one of the things I loved about Leonora the most was her attire. She had no need at all to dress in a flamboyant surrealist manner because it was all within her and she could stop a room dead as she entered it so she always wore the most plain outfits gray flannel louses, dowdy shoes and it was the perfect perfect outfit for the witch in disguise traversing the world and I think when Jennifer changed into that costume she truly became Leonora. She's already an incredibly gifted actress and her voice her the way she moves is is so accurate it sometimes gave me chills actually and I they often you often had at the beginning a spiral staircase if I remember correctly and then you changed it and it did really remind me of Leonora's home and you know I knew her when she was in her late 80s and then 90s and she would jump through these little spiral stairs like they were nothing she was so agile and these stairs are just like the stairs in her paintings going from one psychic place to another. Another very important painting and piece of literature for the Double Edge production was Down Below and Down Below was her recollection of her mental breakdown and incarceration in the asylum in Santander and this is a painting of the same title when she first moved to Mexico City under the care of Pierre Mabille who was a surrealist you know a collaborator and also a psychiatrist she was able to write down her traumatic experience it's an extraordinary book I highly recommended to everyone Down Below and this painting shows the fictionalized asylum the various denzians of it and then herself in the corner and I know that from a feminist perspective what happened to her in the asylum I think was of importance to you Stacy and I'm going to just show this wonderful scene from the production where Dr. Morales who was her doctor and tormenter is portrayed here anything you'd like to say Stacy about this? I think we can keep going but I do want to plug the stone door which is the other amazing book that she wrote that gets very little attention and it describes a psychic space and a mystical space that I've never really seen captured in literature so I that was very um if the Down Below describes the first half of the performance then I think the stone door takes us in inward into that mystic space. Well thank you so much for bringing that up because the stone door is the great masterpiece as far as I'm concerned of Leonora's writings and not only you and myself but other people particularly in the magic community have commented to me over and over again when is that going to be published so I hope now that we put it out there it will happen however I do want to say that there recently has been a republication of a number of her short stories and we're so lucky and you can go online and purchase those. Before we go on I want you to just notice the egg two eggs here because eggs are going to be very important part of Carrington's iconography. All right so again the level of detail of double edges picking out of items in her work is extraordinary so this wonderful door that they kind of wheel around and go in and out of really comes almost directly from this painting by Carrington and Stacy did you design the the this textile did it come from the portrayal of Leonora here? That is actually originally supposed to be honey. Oh oh that's right. That's taken from a Hodorowski story about his ancestry and a honey bath but because we wanted her to be immersed in this cold and clinical bathtub which is from the down below story we also wanted something that was softer around the edges and just to reference all of this this is a melding of many different paintings but the story is from her life and as she's written about it in Down Below and the horse is there as the repeated reference of freedom and then one of the characters from the Down Below painting is up next to the horse kind of wistfully and the soldier is part of that story that she describes of her encounter with the soldiers in Spain during her attempt to escape and this door was built actually directly from this painting Amanda Miller who is the bird in the performance is often to be seen perched on that door but not in this painting. So all throughout Carrington's paintings are mysterious robed figures they're quite fascinating what they represent we do not know ancestors magical practitioners um some of them are in black and white which I believe is a reference to the habits of Mexican nuns she very much liked to visit convents and was interested particularly of course in Sorjuana Inés de la Cruz a great feminist nun figure in Mexican history so also with the figure of the soldier that Stacy mentioned this is a little detail of a Nazi soldier that she created and I think you were copying it in the costume yes but it it was not done at the time where she was actively involved with escaping the Nazis actually this was done in response to the terrible massacre of students in 1968 in Suateloko near the Mexican University and she pictures you know Mexican police at this terrible terrible historic moment you know as Nazis I'm sure it gave her really bad flashbacks to that time period and in fact she left Mexico in 68 and lived for a number of years in New York and in New York City she was fascinated by the Pacific community and so on the other side you see an image of a rabbi uh Hasidic who was part of a series she did on the Debeck and I think that Carlos here kind of incorporates aspects of that and she was very very interested in Kabbalah and other forms of Jewish mysticism well as I mentioned before eggs were a very important symbol for Carrington they operated on many levels I think first and foremost she was interested in the alchemical egg she was a great reader of alchemy and she used egg tempura as a kind of magical alchemical artistic medium but also the egg for her was a symbol of feminine power and creativity and so you utilize eggs in a lot of your performances yes and right next to me my egg oh there you go there's the egg now these three characters in the glasses are my favorites double edge I must say and they come from many many Carrington paintings that show always a trio of mysterious men sometimes a gender is not very specific Carrington really enjoyed portraying non-gendered people and half animal half people and I think so I have this again three Hasidim but there's many other trios that we see Stacy talk about stilts and stilt walkers in your performances yes well I think that uh it's important for us to um deal with every level every plane as I said before dimensions are important and giant people small people also flying people all of those different planes are important to include and non people or animal people so this is this was pretty clear that we were going to have the giant tests in here also because you told us to because that had to do with the egg and fertility and the whole women's dimension of this which we worked on so much and was so important to us and I love it that you brought that you tried to activate all the spaces and it's true you can see in any Carrington any Carrington painting there's things flying through the air things crawling around there's all this movement and you really managed to capture that it's very exciting so here is another example of a mysterious genderless trio uh and I think you took it from this great painting grandmother Moorhead's aromatic kitchen and again these mysterious cloaked figures some of them amusingly have sunglasses on even though it's nighttime and they're in an interior and performing their magical mysterious rituals and again just more trios from Carrington uh Tribeca is obviously a play on Tribeca and I believe this is actually kind of a disguised portrait of land or a drawing a magic circle and these very cabalistic I think quasi-demonic creatures come and join her in the night and then this is from a painting Sisigie with these very comical again characters and sunglasses you know protecting their eyes from magical radiance comical scary comical scary just ever so slightly Edward Gory Ask which I love and here is uh the scene shows Carrington doing a tarot reading and I just to show you again the incredible movement in a Carrington typical painting moving from one place to another and I think this was a big inspiration this painting 999 for you uh this is one of my favorite paintings of Carrington it's the Garden of Paracelsus and who was a great herbalist and doctor and magician and it's showing a magic circle with people doing rituals on it and as they are doing their things the space kind of opens out into multiple magical dimensions this is this is completely unique in the history of art really an extraordinary composition and I think that you tried to achieve it you have people flying through the air here and again your Leonora Jennifer holding the egg emulates these magical figures always holding these powerful light filled eggs often there are children magical children flying being guided by elderly witchy relatives and I loved how you used fabrics to create spaces especially in the upper regions and the acrobatic abilities of your crew are so extraordinary I don't know how they did it I was kind of terrified they would fall the whole time I never saw anyone fall so tell me a little bit about this this character here uh this is Travis and he seems to morph and change into all kinds of uh Carrington-esque creatures yeah I think that this is probably emerging of his Carrington and his Hodorovsky this is a this is where as Leonora was mentoring Hodorovsky which is an important fact I think that a lot of his work is heavily influenced by the time that he spent learning from her and we've taken a few of his images and put them in here as she gets deeper and deeper into teaching him and Jennifer Leonora is in back of him brewing the whole thing and of course you can never have any any performance about Leonora without a cauldron and there are many parts of the performance where she has a cauldron and this refers to Celtic cauldrons witches cauldrons are in a lot of her paintings and I love the headdress with the horns and it's taken directly from this wonderful masked figure from the down below painting so I like how you you turn her into one of her own animal human hybrids Carlos was extraordinary in the performance and I love this particular still shot showing him in this wonderful powerful position as the magician with one hand up one down Leonora will paint the magician over and over again now it comes from the tarot where the magician is shown drawing sacred energy from above and bringing it down to earth and I'm showing you here one of Carrington's tarot cards of the magician above but also in the lower left corner you can see other images again these mysterious genderless draped magician figures always utilizing this pose you even incorporated sculpture I don't know how you did it this is her sculpture How Doth the Little Crocodile which is a play on Lewis Carroll and it's an actually this is a small I'm showing you a small tabletop version of it but it's actually a gigantic public sculpture located near Chapultepec Park in Mexico City and why did you include those Stacy? Well I saw that sculpture in Mexico City and I must have taken like a thousand pictures all around it because I was just so blown away by that I think the the idea of seeing animals in this reality is really not just moving but also important for the world right now especially to understand the our presence as one part of a whole dimension of life is an important lesson from Leonora for all of us so I really thought the crocodiles needed to make a trek across in their boat and I always wanted to see that boat moving so we finally accomplished that here Yes you did. Well another great painting what is St. Anthony? I do have to just interject at this point because we're nearing the end that Stacy Jennifer and I took what was it to a 48 hour trip to Monterey to the Museum of Contemporary Art there to see the great Leonora Carrington retrospective and we spent what two whole entire days in the museum looking at each painting in person it was really a wonderful collaborative experience because we could talk about you know each one standing in front of it instead of a picture you know or a projected digital image and this particular painting again was one of those highly influential works that plays a really important part in your performance and in particular I'll just switch up was this corner of the painting showing the circular movement of the queen of Sheba and you orchestrated that final the finale really beautifully Yeah and this mask is another statue I don't know how many more we have to go because we are nearing the end I think we just have a couple now we have a couple more minutes this is another painting I know that you were very influenced by La Chasse by Carrington and I also included this work here just her great interest in arctic landscapes and creatures with horns Yeah and this was the our we even call it the arctic to the point that Susan didn't know what we were talking about yeah no idea and again just to show you that the costumes come from a merging of many different images and I think that's really important because you can't just copy Leonora Leonora was not a copyist herself she was influenced by Bosch by many many artists but it was never a direct copy and I don't think that's the way to go when you're putting on anything about Leonora you have to interpret it yourself I think you did that very successfully just a few more that's the last moment in our performance and she's really I think the idea here is that she's going up the stairs instead of down the stairs into her house towards the horse and we don't actually have a picture of that here but we have our Leonora double who gets on the horse and rides away and that's the end so we decided that she would definitely be on that horse in the end and get away that's wonderful well Stacy we are right on time ending I'll stop sharing so we can ask some questions hello first of all thank you both I have a question Stacy for you before we take some um questions from our online viewers my question is having seen this work many times I really feel that it transcends any feeling of reproduction of visual reproduction and I'm really curious about your process as a director how you first approached finding your own creative vision and meeting Leonora I feel like you went toe to toe with her and she's such an incredible artist um what was the beginning of that like for you um it seems great it was always natural and it got more and more natural um as soon as I saw the paintings and particularly read those two books um I I really understood a world that I hadn't visually understood before and maybe even um word wise I didn't understand before the the merging of the personal story with the epic seeing um the juxtaposition of all different realities which is like the way that I see life but I hadn't seen that really it it was like Shagal who I've been working with for many years was a preparation to Leonora and I think Leonora has the added bonus of being a woman and she really understands the world in this way of that is not about answers it's about questions being put out there so that was just exciting and we kept like falling deeper and deeper into her world and then I think the collaboration with Susan allowed me to actually understand a lot of what I was seeing um in a different way which was exciting and new and also of course informative thank you I have a question that is coming to us online from Luis Marentes he says that several Mexican women like Graciela Amador worked on puppet theaters and they had several connections to the S3 Dems Dita I'm sorry if I mispronounced that movement and I wonder he's he wonders if there's much work about their set and puppet design and whether she had any connection to them uh or perhaps they were more active before she arrived um well she she arrived early so that's a really good question and I don't have an answer to it but I will say this um her son Gabrielle and his wife deal with theatrical performances and puppets and I think it's uh again her theatrical work is an unexplored area and I'm really hoping that there will be a book on this really interesting topic so great great question don't have the answer yet future research um another question I have for both of you is what do you see your future looking like continuing your work with Leonora and her world our future would mean with double edge or I think either I interpret it as individually even uh what do you how do you see your Leonora continuing with you I mean Susan just published this the most amazing book that she put up there at the beginning narrow it's just coming out you can't even get copies of it I had to beg for a copy of it um it's I think it's already in its third round it is for anybody has it so um she's like not she's in her career already I I just want to well I actually did a arc and I are publishing another book on the magical relationship between Gramerios Varro and Leonora Carrington because the artistic working relationships between women has not really been explored Picasso and Brock and other male artist collaborations have been but women's collaborative processes which I dare say are different than men's have been neglected and so we wanted to focus on this and we've already done an enormous amount of work and a book will be forthcoming on that topic and in addition we have many many many other projects it's it's endless and Leonora is a prophet of the new age she has pioneered so many things um eco feminism for one and she has so much more to teach us and uh I personally have spent I've written many many essays in smaller publications on her magical practices and I will continue to do that as well we have this performance that we've been talking to we have an outdoor Leonora performance we've done Leonora's world um we are um working on a new performance that is uh related to her outdoor work and other work um so I think we had to get outside with Leonora just because of her massive amount of outdoor um and environmental work um I think that's that was really important to us and um so that's those are all continuing projects we think we'll be touring Leonora this performance for many years hopefully um especially once this pandemic is over Stacey you just perfectly transitioned us to our last question which comes from Jen Parish Hill it's about the outdoor presentation which she saw uh she said that Jennifer's Leonora spoke to the goat which I'd like to interject and say this was a live goat who was in the scene um announcing that the goat was not on the menu uh she's the question is is that a nod to Leonora's vegetarianism and the ask her out wrote then wrote thank you very much it made me tear up it certainly was I think right yeah that the goat definitely would not have been on the menu but there were a lot of herbs out there that were so and in Leonora la maga la maestra um she's making soup with a lot of different um other herbs so we're we're constantly trying to refer to her um bruise and and things like that I mean the live goat is not going to tour I just want to clarify that well thank you both very much and um I'd like to say to everyone that's watching I really hope that you'll join us for the broadcast which again is on March 14th it's at 8 p.m. you can log into allarts.org slash peak dash hd and you can also check out double edge on facebook and get the links and all that kind of information for anyone who wasn't able to just drop that down and again thank you both of you very much thank you Susan thank you see you bye bye