 changed a lot of industries, right? So everybody knows the list, but not healthcare. So what's the reason and when is that change going to happen? So when is it going to be disrupted like everybody says? Yeah, I think we all know the reasons around healthcare being really obsolete and just very, very difficult across all dimensions. So I won't take the whole panel to talk about that. I think in terms of what's really interesting for us as we look at opportunities in healthcare is that the consumer experience is truly left behind. I mean as a consumer today, forget about as a patient, you're delighted with everything you do in terms of shopping or food or taxis, entertainment, even banking now is being disrupted, but yet you have a miserable experience when you're sick or even when you want to think about whether you're getting sick. And that's crazy. You know one of the most important things in your life, you really have set your expectations so low. And so as we think about it, the Holy Grail, you know kind of where do you want to end up is at a point where somebody or a set of companies and hopefully it'll include the companies that are on stage here today can deliver a consumer experience that really can delight in terms of taking my data, taking what is known about me across all of these silos, personalizing and joining the dots around my health journey, the way you do in every other aspect of my life. And to answer the question, what do I think needs to change? A lot of things, but one of the things that we don't talk often enough about is our view that you really need one of the big three to enter the space of health, especially in the US in a very dramatic way. And if I had to bet, I think it would be Amazon. So my answer to you is Jeff Vizos. I think that's what needs to change. So do you think that it's going to be like a big disruption at one store? It's going to be a long, long, long painful process? Oh God, I don't know. As an investor, I very much hope that it'll be somewhere in the middle of that. I do think it's going to take a lot of capital. But it's going to be driven by the consumer. I guess that's my point. I think that no matter how much you try to get the providers, the administration, and you have to carry them with you, but the consumer needs to shout and shout loud enough. And the question is who's going to put in the long-term investment to really enable them to have the view? And there will be some great companies, and I think we asked around, you know, we have two of them here today, but I do think that it needs a lot of long-term thinking from somebody who's worth a trillion dollars. And that probably is Amazon. Yeah. So, Johannes, let's face it, you have a pretty no rocket science app, right? So you have a video call. That's nice. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So that's why we are sitting on the other side of the table. So you're connecting doctors to patients, right? Why a mobile phone? So it doesn't sound like a rocket science. So what is your secret sauce? I mean, you have been attracting some significant investment, significant cracks, and you know, I mean, I've been even myself being using in Finland like three or four apps like you. Yeah. Now, I think it's a lot of, for your question, like when we first started looking into it, we were also surprised like, why haven't someone done this already? Because it seems so obvious. Yeah. It seems obvious that you should have instant access, direct learning phone, have a GP calling you, solving that prescription, sick note or whatever. And that's what we went there. Then when we first started to get into it, everyone just said, no, this is not doable. You can't do this. And then you soon realize there's no regulatory issues in actually providing care like this. But it's a lot of compliance work. It's a lot of complexity under the hood. Like from the consumer perspective, it is very simple, and it should be very simple. And we being a consumer driven company, I think that have been the lack in the healthcare system as a whole. Like, it's the consumer focus has not been there. Like we are a consumer driven company even though we're in healthcare. Then underneath is highly complex. Like we are a healthcare provider ourselves. We employ more than 500 clinicians. We do all the compliance work, quality assurance, training them on how to deliver care in this way. We publicly reimbursed in three European markets with everything involved in that. So I think it's just a lot of things that you have to knit together to create a very strong and easy to use consumer experience. So what has been the biggest barrier? So what's that been the biggest obstacle? Has it been the regulation? Has it been the friction in the system? Has it been finding the barrier, i.e. the taxpayer or the government to pay for the service issue, provide partially or what's the biggest thing you have overcome? I think what's very exciting for us right now is that we see a very big shift when healthcare systems all across Europe are starting to be very open for digitalization of healthcare. That was not the case when we started. I asked three years ago, we had a lot of the big European markets were totally closed and now that is changing and it's changing quickly. But I think what's important is that the consumers and the patients, they are very ready for this. I'm a patient myself. We have been very ready for this a long time and now what's really, really great and us and other companies pushing this forward is that you have policy makers and governments also realize that this is necessary. You don't have to maintain the welfare states of Europe. You have to go digital. You have healthcare expenditures just keep on increasing in all European markets. You have lack of access everywhere. You have a lot of inequalities when it comes to access of healthcare and the way to solve that is digitalization. Yeah. So what do you think that? What are you driving with your let's call it like a simple but functioning app, right? Is it the cost down or is it quality up or is it both or what's the kind of driver? I understand that the consumer loves it. So they don't need to go to the doctors office or line up and everything. But for the system, so for the healthcare system, is it the cost? Is it the quality? Yeah, so it's like we have many different stakeholders here. We have the patients and for them it's obvious. You have a lot of accessibility. It's much more convenient. You don't have to travel long distances. You don't have to call a landline early in the morning to have that solved. You can solve those needs from the comfort of your home. And then you have your clinicians and suddenly you drive a lot of efficiency for them and also add a lot of flexibility to your working environment. It's great being a doctor like we have psychologists as well. But you're bound to one specific area and suddenly we have a lot of doctors that are on part-time parental leave, part-time sick leave. We have more and more older doctors that are retired, but it will work a few hours per day. And then you have the healthcare systems and the governments. And as said, you have healthcare expenditures keeps on increasing everywhere. And you have to drive efficiency and to be able to create more and better care. Yeah. So why hasn't it changed? Because if I think myself, I mean, I love those apps that connect me to the doctor because I don't need to go anywhere, right? So why isn't everybody adopting this? And let's cut the consumer out because I mean, if the healthcare system would say that right now all the doctor visits in the first place are digital, that would save a lot of cost, right? Yeah. So why isn't it that way? Well, I think it's happening in France. We just recently launched in France. They open up nationwide for the relaxation and the video with doctors. You have a big movement all across Europe now, and I've changed it to this direction. So it is, it is happening. And then I think that you know, for us, since we started, our ambition level have always been to make sure that we can be a mass market solution. Yeah, something for everyone. But we don't want to provide a bill of premium service for the few that can afford to pay for better access and better services. In order to achieve that, in Europe, you have to address the biggest payers in the markets. And that's the public systems, right? And the public systems usually don't move very quickly. Yeah. And then, you know, entrepreneurs and us, and we need to help, you know, push things, things forward. And what's beautiful with what we are doing is also that we have the consumers, the patients that are actively pushing this forward, because we have been placing, you know, Korea and Libya, as we now call in France and UK in the hands of patients. Yeah. And they said, of course, I want you to see my GP, my doctor in this country. Yeah, yeah. So, Claire, you have an amazing business that I've seen before. So, it's very complicated, like data analysis correlating a lot of things. So, if I'm a patient, I can download your app, right? Yes. And the app tells me what's the problem based on the symptoms, right? So, again, I've been using those since the time of the WebMD. So, what are you doing differently this time? And by the way, the reason why I'm asking these questions is in a way that I'm just so puzzled why this system doesn't move. So, why can't we, you know, democratize access to healthcare and why can't we cut the course with the new technologies? I'm just puzzled. And that's why I'm trying to push you guys to tell me that why isn't your apps, like, taken into use by anybody? So, tell me a little bit, like, how would you design the healthcare system based on other health systems? How would you design the app if you would start from a clean paper? Okay, lots of questions there. So, I'll start with what makes us different. So, WebMD has been around for a long time and it's very popular. And one of the most popular websites in the US and I think in the world. And by far the majority of traffic is driven there by the symptom checker, which is very basic. It's a decision tree. It does basic triage. So, it's quite sort of rigid, limited and rigid. You know, if you go down one branch and you answer something wrong or you can't go back again. Pretty much everyone googles their symptom. You know, this is an age old sort of need and I work with a lot of GPs who tell me they're surprised nowadays if a patient hasn't googled their symptoms and we're going to see them. But it's not at all personalised. It's not reliable. You put in one or two key words driven by SEO. And usually it's the worst case scenario that comes up and then an anxious patient turns up to see the doctor. And what we've done is built a system that's much more personalised, reliable and actually reasons a little bit like a doctor reasons during a consultation. So, it's very intuitive. The individual tells Ada what's bothering them and Ada asks follow-up questions. It's completely dynamic. It's probabilistic. So, basically, based on an enormous knowledge base that we've built up over years with an in-house team of doctors, data scientists, engineers and a reasoning engine. Basically, Ada, with every piece of information, is weighing up what might be going on here and what's the most useful thing to ask now to try and differentiate between those possibilities. It goes through stages of the conversation and make sure it rules out, must not miss things and so forth. And at the end provides the user, not with a diagnosis, but quite detailed information about what might be going on, roughly how likely that is, you know, six out of ten people with symptoms like this had this condition and what would be appropriate steps to take much more personalised, much more accurate than anything that's come before. So, do you think that you are better than doctors in analysing symptoms? I know it's a difficult question, but... You know, our goal, really, is to work with doctors. Yes. But at the same time, very often, people have no access to a doctor or don't even necessarily need to get to see a doctor. So, we can fill those gaps. The figures are quite shocking still. More than half the world's population still lacks access to basic essential health services when they need them. And even those who have access, it's often suboptimal access. You might wait weeks for an appointment and then quality is variable when you get access. You know, so something like this can provide access to personalised, reliable health information when you maybe have no access at all, an instant access when it may be a wait. And help you to understand, you know, do I need to go and see a doctor straight away? Is this something I can self-manage? Is it an emergency? And we actually also have it. We actually started with doctor-diagnosed decision support. I think it's another sort of differentiating factor for us because we spent a number of years honing our knowledge base and reasoning so it's good enough to support doctors and then translated it to patient-friendly language. And we still have that doctor-facing tool. And so we do have partnerships where the patient assessment is then shared with the doctor. The doctor has all that information in their hands before the patient even walks through the door, before the consultation, whether it's a remote consultation with a service like Cree or face to face. And that can really drive very big efficiencies in terms of sort of speeding up the consult and forming the doctor. So what do you think if I divide world into three camps or four camps, actually, I need to use four camps here. This is very simplistic view. So we have the Western countries, so the European countries. Then we have the US, then we have China, and then we have the developing world. And I know that I left India and a lot of other places away from this. But where do you think that this kind of disruption is going to happen? Because I'm pretty skeptical myself on Europe. And we have too much legacy, and we don't need to even go, why the legacy is there and all that. US is a business-driven healthcare system, right? But then there are other obstacles and legacies rather than the public dimension. And then you have China, which is very centrally governed, and then you have developing countries that don't have anything. So any comments on this, like, where is this going to start? Maybe I can give you sort of an investigative view because clearly we thought about that. I think the reality of the healthcare system in the US, even though it is value based, it is results-driven and business-driven, it is incredibly fragmented. It's fragmented from a regulatory perspective, but it's also fragmented from a payer perspective. So to really be a mass market opportunity or a mass market offering is very, very difficult. I go back to what Johannes said, which is if you get the public reimbursement, if you get that on your side, you get the providers, you get the payers, and you're able to then really be a mass market solution. That's number one, and that's very unique to Europe. It's certainly not the case in India. China, of course, it is the case, but let's leave that aside. But Europe versus US, which is what I can comment on, I think the fact that you can have mass market solutions in countries like UK, Sweden, of course, France, and then hopefully at some point in Germany, I mean, that is phenomenal in terms of the opportunity that allows you to leverage your capital and the infrastructure you need to put into place back to your comment as to how simple it is. It's an art of being simple. It's at the back. It's like it's Amazon is beautifully simple, but at the back, it's incredibly complicated. And that's exactly what the goal should be that the consumer thinks it's very simple. The other thing is that you have the licensing across Europe from a doctor perspective, which also helps in terms of thinking about fungible pools of talent. And by the way, the problems that we're describing are not, they are not developing well problems itself. I mean, UK, you know that very well. But the waiting times where people for urgent care have had to wait more than four hours, have more than four acts over the last few years. And guess what's going to happen with Brexit? It's going to go much, much worse. Yeah. Non urgent surgeries, waiting time is something like 18 weeks. This is not developed care standard. So, you know, I think we all know what the problems are. You know, it's probably not constructed to talk about them. But it has to be for a $2 trillion market. Yeah. There comes a tipping point where 80% of the spend is going on chronic care. But nothing's being done on prevention. Yeah. How is that possible in a world of personalized medicine and truly breakthroughs around technology and data? So, yes, it's backward looking view. It's been very difficult in Europe. You need to be pessimistic. I think if you're not optimistic looking forward, then we should all just go home. Yeah. My view. So you're optimistic for European healthcare systems to transform with tech? I'm, you know, when we invested in Cree, it was no levy. That was about a year and a bit ago. And the company had just launched. At the time that we invested, we had no idea whether this would work in the UK in terms of public reimbursement. Certainly not in Germany and in France, it was not illegal, but it was not allowed. Yeah. Fast forward a year and a bit. And it's completely legal. And there are systems being put in place, which is pretty phenomenal. Yeah. Things have gone way faster than we thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which never happens. Yeah. I'm talking about, I'm not saying it's going to be smooth sailing, but that's really interesting, isn't it? Yeah. That it went faster than we thought. Yeah, yeah. Typically it's much slower than we thought. That's right. So, yeah, I think things are changing. And when things go change fast, as we all say, you always underestimate in the long term and you overestimate in the short term. Yeah. Somewhere in there, it's going to work out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Johannes, you probably have a comment on that, right? No, there's definitely what's happening. It thinks I'm moving very quickly. But to your point, I don't think it's the healthcare systems themselves that they will allow, provides us to thrive and it will be entrepreneurs and others that are pushing this forward. Yeah. Sure. So we're operating globally. We have consumers using our app globally. And we have partnerships in all of the parts of the world that you mentioned. So the UK, Germany, US, Asia, Africa. And we see significant differences in being able to, the way we're partnering in those different parts of the world. So what I would say is that parts of the world where there's less mature health systems, less infrastructure, an even bigger gap between, you know, what the healthcare people need and what they currently have, where there's investment into sort of driving that in infrastructure now. And we can potentially do it from the ground up, sort of built around the tech. I see an amazing opportunity, you know, to really build the solution, build the healthcare offering around the needs of the patient and the technology. So I think that's really exciting. Yeah. Hey, there's something I want to want you to deliver to the audience and the entrepreneurs in the audience. So let's start with Johannes. So what is your tip to the healthcare tech entrepreneur? So two or three tips that everybody can walk away with by saying that Johannes told me to do one, two, three. Yeah. That's the thing, like when we first started launched in Sweden, there were no, we weren't willing to pay for it. There was not like, it was a reimbursement structure into place with the healthcare. Like we went in and we pushed for it. And I think that's, that's the short answer, just do it. So you mean that you need to get reimbursed? No, no way. You just go in there and start fighting for what you believe in. And we believe in a healthcare system that is much more efficient and accessible for all of you. So you're just saying that just use your entrepreneurial drive to make things happen and believe in what you do. And just when you have been kind of, because my understanding is that you're able to really kind of cut cost out and the patient experiencing good and everything. So what is that? But another thing that I think this is very clearly so that this will be a patient driven change. And I think that's having such a big lack in the healthcare system. Like you have a healthcare system mainly building systems for the healthcare system. You don't have a healthcare system building things for the patients. We are the patients. And we are building things directly for the patients. And I think that's, that's, that's what healthcare systems should have been doing. And since you have been able to make this kind of a public private partnership as they call, so meaning that there's a public healthcare system and you are a private provider, you're able to make it work very well. Yeah. So what is the essence in making it working well? I think it's a lot of different things. I think as we described, it looks very simple from the outside perspective, from the consumer perspective. But in the back end, it's a lot of complexity in what we're doing. And I think it's just, you know, but those problems can be solved. It's the same one we first looked into. People said it is not doable. It is doable. Is it a lot of heavy lifting? Yes, it is. Is it really hard? Yes, it is. But it's solvable. Yeah. How about you, so a couple of tips for health entrepreneurs who want to be health entrepreneurs? Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, I very much agree with Sonali and Johannes regarding this is going to be a consumer driven transformation. Yeah. And so I think think about where we need to get what healthcare should look like and will look like in the future, centred around the consumer and what we want that experience to be like and the quality and level of access and then help drive that change, build something that helps drive that change if you really want to have an impact. I would also say that despite that, the majority of Medtech health tech companies to date have monetized B2B. So even if they started B2C, they very often pivot and end up monetizing B2B. Very often in healthcare, the beneficiary of your technology is not the same person as sometimes even the end user and the paying customer. So you often have to work, it can be very complex, working with multiple stakeholders. You need to understand all of them, your value proposition, the user experience and so forth and work within that complexity. Yeah. And I think my final point would be it's likely to take longer and cost more money than you initially expected because healthcare is complicated. So just be ready for that. Yeah. And have investors who sort of prepare to go on that journey with you. And Sonali, is there any like really specific characters you look for when you're meeting healthcare entrepreneurs or looking at health startups? Are they different from any other startups? Is there something special you look for? Yeah, I actually think there is. This is, you really do have to be patient. Yeah. This is in every other industry you can think of, you do have more than one party, you have marketplaces, sometimes you have regulators. Here you have the public sentiment, you have the regulators, you have the providers, you have the payers that are sort of somewhere in that, and then of course you have the consumers. And you need to make sure that your quality of care is, you're a clinic after all, you're a virtual clinic. And the ability to balance all of those stakeholders and these constituents and but always do the right things for the patient is imperative, because otherwise you won't be around in 10 years or 20 years, which is probably the lifetime it takes to get to a very, very, very large business. Yeah. And we're only interested in where you are in 10 years as an investor. We're not interested in sort of up and down, and you know, we're just like, where are we going? And we take a long view. And so from an entrepreneur, in terms of what we look for, we really look for somebody who is truly mission driven. Yeah. And at the end of the day, when things are hard, and there's always a shortcut, that the team will do the right thing for the patient. Yeah. And always do the right thing for patient. And don't take that for granted. It is certain we've seen this across many sectors, where people take shortcuts, they do things for growth, for funding, for valuation. All of that will come if you do the right things for the patient. And there's not, not everyone is going to make those the right decisions. And so our filter is very focused on who is the entrepreneur, and where is the mission, and where are the sort of set of values, if you will. Yeah. So long answer, but... No, no, but it was... Very specific. Wow, that was like, hopefully, somebody recorded that, because like this, like a mission driven, you know, approach as a healthcare. I mean, this is like a really, exactly how it should be, in my opinion. Hey, some really smart questions from the audience. We have a couple of minutes time, unfortunately. So, somebody, please probably, Sonali, for you. So someone is asking that, since the healthcare upside is very big, right? Yeah. And then the timeline is very long. So are the healthcare startups higher valued or lower valued than the regular B2B startups? So are they high, are they overvalued? Given... Lower or higher, lower or higher, because you know... I think, you know, I think it's probably somewhere... It's quite balanced between the two, because, as I tell my partners very often, there isn't a bigger white space right now in Europe. There just isn't a bigger white space. So I think the size of the opportunity makes everybody dream. But at the same time, it's not easy to figure out the exact revenue model all the time. So you have to sort of balance the two. But I think on balance, you know, companies that can really change large industries, the $2 trillion industry in Europe, and I think three and a half in the US, people see that. And so probably on balance, I wouldn't say overvalued, but they're deserving of the prize that they're trying to win. So, hey, final 10 seconds on data ownership. Somebody's asking, so who should own the data? Let's have just one word. So who should own it? The patient should own the data. Completely the patient. No doubt the patient. Okay, so who's going to make most money out of health data? I don't know. Someone else can answer. It is the patients themselves. I mean, you know, ultimately, it's about the value that you can generate. You know, I think for the individual, in terms of delivering better care by having ownership of your data and being able to share it as you wish to access better care. All right. So we put mission-driven entrepreneurs put patients first, right? So let's have our applause. Thank you. Thank you. Team all.