 That's maybe quite a big sentence. Yeah, say a bit more about that. Are you talking about like therapy in the past as in dealing with the hurt child that experienced it maybe? Yes, because the problems why people function unhealthily in the present isn't to be found in the present. No. It's to be found in the past. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 66 with myself, Jackie Jones, and of course the wonderful Mr Bob Cook, as always. And what we're going to be looking at in this episode is the importance of retrieval of memories in the therapy process. Well, thank you for those kind words. Always, Bob. That's very nice of you. Now this subject area is very dear to my heart and I think retrieval of past memories is so central to the development of the therapeutic process and people's change that is imperative to talk about. Yeah. Okay, so is it okay if I just start? Yes, absolutely. Okay. So I would lose counts about how many times clients have come in in the assessment processes and often when I work privately with them and say what's the difference between counseling and psychotherapy. And it's a very, very big subject and I usually give a very superficial reply in a way. And for people listening here, counsellors, this is, you may have different versions of what you see is the difference between counseling and psychotherapy and also the similarity. So bear with me. So I will say very briefly because I didn't have that much time in an assessment process usually. It says with counseling and psychotherapy, number one, they're trained differently. So for example, psychotherapies are trained how to deal with disturbed people and counsellors aren't. But the most important thing really I think in the domain of psychotherapy is psychotherapies will look at how the past affects the present. But counsellors are more likely to stay with the present. Of course I know there's been the rise of therapeutic counsellors so I think the whole conversation can get overlapping there. I want to talk about psychotherapy in depth clinical psychotherapy where the major focus is how the past affects the present. And transaction analysis, the way I use transaction analysis and think about transaction analysis is a psychodynamic model, which is primarily looking at how the past affects the present. Now you can use TNA in a very different way, in a much more short term way, where you're looking at the present much more and you're looking at behavioural change. How it burned was very much 70 years ago talked about how you strengthen the adult and not go particularly into the past. But for me, in-depth psychotherapy is how the past affects the present. Would you see it that way? 100%. It sounds quite obvious really to think about it but the past and the future is where all I was suffering is to be in the moment is where we should all try to be. But I was passed as a wonderful way of coming into our present through memories, through feelings, experience, through all those things. So as a therapist I would always be interested in how people are enacting out their past, not only with me as a therapist, but also in terms of functioning in the here and now. TNA, you might simply want to say concentrating on a person's script and how they play out their life plan, if you like, in the present with me. And also looking at how their script or their past hinders their healthy mechanisms in the present. So most people I've ever seen through the door, this is what therapy is about, because otherwise they wouldn't be coming through the door. If they didn't have any problems in their functioning or present, they wouldn't be coming through the door. And it is the issues in the past with their enacting out of the present which causes the problems. So the therapy is to be found in the past, not the present, from my position. OK. That may be quite a big sentence. Say a bit more about that. Are you talking about like therapy in the past as in dealing with the hurt child that experienced it maybe? Yes, because the problems why people function unhealthily in the present isn't to be found in the present. No. It's to be found in the past. Yeah. See that's what I think with counselling is the difference between counselling and psychotherapy is that maybe the talk techniques to deal with the symptoms of their past. They don't necessarily deal with whatever happened in the past, but the talk techniques have to deal with it. So psychotherapy for me is to help the person reflect, visit. Talk about the wounded parts of their history or the traumas, if you like, that happened in the history, which they've defended against or moved into survival mode, if you like, to get by in the world and often quite successfully, by the way. And perhaps doesn't help them anymore today, maybe in personal or emotional relationships. Yeah. And that's often why therapy is quite difficult because you are going back to some places that hold a lot of hurt. And it's a very slow process. It's not like we, you know, I suppose I do do a timeline, you know, of certain points in people's lives when I'm first seeing them just to get a feel for them. Yeah. But you don't just dive in straight away into those hurt places. No. So when I'm talking about memories, I need another statement about trauma. I need help along the way. Yeah. So most people I have seen and are still in a couple of groups come into therapy because of past trauma. Now that could be really massive trauma, which will abuse. It could be high degrees of sexual abuse. It could be physical abuse. It could be abandonment. It could be neglect. We could go through trauma. Yeah. So it's hard to say a continuum of minor trauma to tennis trauma. So I'm just using the word traumatic moments here if you like. Now the major way that people defend against trauma and memories of the trauma is to lock the trauma away in compartments, if you like. Metaforon people's psychological spirits and not to revisit again either emotionally or through memory. Yeah. And then they find coping mechanisms to deal with life in a so-called if you like healthy way. Until the trauma is visited or the compartments are opened a bit, then all the energy by the person, if you like, is all about keeping those compartments closed and denying their memories emotionally or actually physically. So this is where the defensive denial comes in. And they deny their memories as well as their emotions. So when I say retrieval of memories, I'm talking about going into the trauma and dealing with the memories that people have denied through dissociation or disavowed mechanisms. So they can actually move towards integration instead of fragmentation, find a healthy way of living. Yeah. And that's a real journey to go back to look at it. Do you know what I mean to bring it all together to move forward. It's a long process for people to be able to do that. It's not something you can do in six weeks or two months or something. It is when I'm talking about this type of work, which is deep trauma, we're talking more in years rather than months or weeks. So people who've had may come in for post traumatic stress or come in with challenging histories. We'll have what in the trade we call dissociative processes. And that might include amnesia, denial, flashbacks, depersonalisation, all ways of movements away from the self and memory. So when I talk about memory retrieval, I'm talking about helping a person finding parts of themselves, which have been safely put away so that they can function, but actually doesn't help them today. Yeah. Somebody once said to me, and it might have actually been in supervision, I'm not sure. You know, when I look at myself and my earliest memories, I think my earliest memories, I was probably about four or five. Like, you know, things like my first day at school, I've got flashbacks of my first day at school and everything. Is there a point where we can start to lay down memories? I think it was in supervision, somebody said that until you've got the power of language, you can't lay down proper memories. Well, there's a difference between implicit memories and explicit memories. So it depends what that person meant by lay down memories as well. But a lot of memories are held in the body. Well, that's it, somatic memories and just that feeling and that sense of something rather than natural playing out of film or however a memory. I went through a massage the other day in a place I hadn't been before actually, by the way. Annoyingly, the massage therapist talked from the beginning to the end. Eventually said, well, actually I've come in here to relax rather than not. But in this talking phase of hers, I did make that sort of, I think it was on the born therapist. I did sort of talk about a few things, but one of the things she was talking about was because she knew I was a therapist. About emotions being held in the body. So I said, have you had any training to deal with what happens if suddenly somebody regresses in front of you because they've massaged, you know, an area? Part, yeah. Yeah. No, no, she said. So I said, well, I think all massage people are going to work in the way that, you know, even in the way you work, which is quite light. She would have had some basic training if a person regresses in front of you. And I believe that because there's a tremendous lot of emotions, especially if you've had a lot of trauma, which is held up and held in the body. And, you know, therapists need to tread very lightly. They certainly don't do massage, obviously. But, you know, I think that massage therapists should have some sort of information about this. So what I'm saying around the way about saying, I don't know what you mean by lay down, but I do know that a lot of early feelings and memories are locked up in the body. Yeah. It's called somatic and the user words somatic. Yeah. So my memories can be triggered through all of our senses for me smell is a really strong trigger for memories if I smell something it can, you know, transport me back to something in my past memory to go of course. Yeah. So, sorry, sense. So if you're working with somebody, if you want to do retrieval of memory work, please remember the sense is the last sense is one of the most keenest senses of all. And it's a very important one for people being abused usually are very triggered by smell and that type of sense. And often then for out of that can come memory. Which again in the therapy room, you know, we don't want to depersonalise it all together but it is something to be aware of. If you've got, you know, a candle with a certain smell on it or if you've got a certain picture in the room or whatever that can be. You know, a trigger or a memory jolt for, you know, certain people. Of course, if you're doing trauma work with people traumatised and you need to take them back there, that needs to be done in a contractual safe way in context of the development of the therapy. That's okay, because that's all being, you know, you might use visualisations to get back to sense to actually trigger memories by the way. But what you're talking about is when it what you're actually talking about is when these things have not been contracted for at all. And the therapist hasn't thought about triggers and hasn't thought about particularly thought about the things that you and I are talking about. So they can be triggered very easily. I was somebody assessment and only the other day and something in the room, he said, he said, you know, this certain object in the room triggered him back. And this was in the assessment. Now, I said, well, let's stay where we are in the here and now, and I'll pass this on to the therapist that you I'm passing you on to. Are you able to will pass this object to the to the offices has happened, and he said yes, and we went out. Right, I think therapist you want a really interesting point here, because I think therapists need to think about how how the actual office or therapist room is. Yes, yeah. Cycra analysts way back in the day believed in having no pictures having nothing that would stimulate or trigger these memories or these associations until the right time upon their walls. So it's a very good conversation to have about with therapists. So today, in fact, only today. One of these therapists came into the room said to me at my Institute I was in there said oh, I'm starting my therapy up and they're working from home and it's not there and show me pictures and they're lovely. I can see it was a lovely. I think therapeutic space. I said, oh, you know, that's really good and maybe you'll be able to show your supervisor that. Right now in terms of this conversation. I think the supervisor would do. It will be very good to look at these pictures because there could be a discussion about. Well, you know what's in the room, how can we put this in the room. I know, have you, you know, I can see there's candles there or not candles there what was your thought about incense and how come the rooms pink wasn't in this particular pink. You know, have you thought about how that might stimulate anybody coming in the room in terms of a aggressive way. Yeah. And it's a really good point that you touched on that if a client is triggered to know how to ground them to bring them back into the present to get them back into the here and now. Oh, I clearly told in the case I've just said, I clearly took to the person look. I'm glad you know what triggers you. We're not going there now. Are you okay to move out of the room. From a very adult way. Yeah. The very directive way. So looking at retrieval of memories in the therapy process. Talk me through how you would use that in therapy with somebody. Well, just let me say why we would use it said a little bit about why we use it. From where I come from, which is a, you know, a relational integrative perspective using TA is a major model, but integration is the aim of the game. Yeah. People who threw trauma fragmented off or disowned parts of themselves so they can function and survive in life. But of course, as I said earlier on in this podcast. Today might have a high cost in terms of healthy living, and they come into therapy because they want to deal that trauma and to have a more unified, you know, integrated sense of self if you like. Yeah, that's where we're heading. Now to get there. We have to go back to help the person. You know, through inquiry through achievement with the person to involving yourself as a therapist. We need to go back to find out what their defense mechanisms were to look at, you know, the fragmentation to help them look at the different parts of the self to help them to actually debrief their trauma if you like. In that, we are always mindful of the retrieval of memories that often are being locked away, which may be so central to the trauma memories such as what the abuser said to them. Memories such as what the abuse actually was, what actually happened in the talk, for example, and how the therapist defended against ever remembering that and what the cost of that is. Yeah. For example, so I forgot what the question was was the question is how I do it. Well, yeah, how would you use memory retrieval in the therapy process. Yeah, I've just explained the reason why I would explain the path, the methodologies very general. Number one, very slow. Number two, using inquiring questions about their history rather than interrogational close questions. When I say hypnotic induction, I mean, I don't mean him not induction any sort of negative way. I mean, sentence constructions was just slower and lower. Yeah. So the person relaxes. So the defences go down more so we can get the person to maybe talk about the trauma in ways they've never talked to anybody before. And out of that might come when this. And it's again about that holding safe space so that they can and an hour or 50 minutes, which is a therapy hour, isn't a very long time to do that. No. Do you know what I mean? Very, very true. That's you've kind of got, you know, 10 or 15 minutes going into it and then an hour before you've got to make sure the ground did enough coming out of that session. Yeah, so what I did when I when I was going to work in a what was what Thurbs called a regressive way, which means going back into time to where the trauma. Ray would either be an hour and a half session. Yeah. Or two sessions in the week. Right. Yeah. So I will build up what you're talking about here, which is protection and a safe place to actually be. I also also always check on support. Yeah. Now they're going to get home. Yeah. All these things. And the client's agreement to doing it rather than think, you know, the therapist thinking, right, we can choose. I'm going to do this with them and just, yeah. This will be very planned out. Yes, yeah. So I would call it retrieval of memory work, which is really actually Jackie. I could call it retrieval of trauma stroke memory work because it's actually helping a person, you know, talk about their trauma. I'm not talking about reliving or, you know, anything like that. I'm just talking about talking about the flavour of the trauma. And even if the person only gets in touch with a segment of it, then we might go a bit deeper another time. Yeah. It's a process, never an event. Yeah. And I think like you said it, you know, we need to be so mindful that it is a very slow process and it's not rushed and it is sometimes dipping in and dipping out rather than going in and experiencing it fully, which can be re traumatising for a client. Yeah. And what I'm talking about is in-depth psychotherapy. Yeah. And not all therapists are trained to do it, be even know how to do it and see, may never do it. Yeah. Yeah, I think the first time it happened for me, it wasn't a planned thing. It was something in the room that triggered a client that suddenly brought up overwhelming feelings. It was something we hadn't even spoken about. So, yeah, I was very conscious of that. Yeah. And it was for me just a matter of having that safe space and grounding the client. And then we went back and discussed it the week after. Yeah, it's a very good point. It needs to be very slow. Yeah. And you don't have to deal with, you know, what the trauma was in the moment. You can deal with it next session. Yeah. Come back to it and at the pace of the client, otherwise you're going to overwhelm the client. So it's really, really important to be a tune to the client and go with the pace of the client and have the safety and security for the client as the top priority. Yeah. For me, it is really important that the client feels in control in the session. Yeah. They can say stop or no or I'm not ready at any point. And the therapist would only do this sort of work way into the therapeutic process. In other words, they would have to know the client well. Yeah. The client would have to know the therapist well and feel they can trust them. There needs to be quite a lot of sessions where the therapist understands the client and needs to be done developmentally in the therapeutic treatment. So we are talking about quite a long way in. Yeah. Six months, seven months, eight months before you do any of this type of deep progressive trauma retrieval of memory work. Yeah. That actually helps me a lot with that client because, you know, the next week we did have a discussion about, you know, if that happens again. What do you want from me? Good question. Do you know what I mean? Do you want me to sit with you? Do you want me to touch you? You know, you say what it is that you want me to do if that does happen again? Which made me feel a lot calmer in that space as well as the clients. And I'm assuming I might be completely wrong here that it helped the client remember more things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It opened up a whole new, you know, it wasn't the reason why they came to therapy in the first place, but it opened up a whole new realm that we dipped to towing obviously, you know, over time. But for me and the client to know if this did have this overwhelm happened again, what do you want from me? That's right. So we all talk about retrieval of memory. Yeah. We're doing it in a way where the client is safe and secure and in control. And there can be a transparent discussion and inquiry about where we're going and what we're getting from it and, you know, how this is aiding therapy. Yeah. And in a way almost like sessional contracts. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because I think clients do, you know, I can honestly say 99.9% of sessions with clients don't always go the way that I have them planned in my head. You know, the direction changes and there will be surprises in the therapy room and certain things will come up. So we've got to be adaptable and be able to, you know, to re-contract with the client. Well, we have to have that level of flexibility. Yeah. Of transparency. Without a shadow of a doubt. But until we can help clients remember things that they don't allow themselves to remember because they need to keep themselves safe. Yeah. Then change may never happen. No, I agree. And like you said, it's not reliving the trauma or it's not talking in depth about the trauma. No, it's just simply touching. Yeah. The, the, the experience, but not reliving it. No. And it's validating it as well. You know, a lot of clients, it wasn't that bad or, you know, there's no reason why I should feel this way or whatever it is that they come out with. But it's validating the response and reaction and feelings. Because, you know, Mo, I don't know, a high number of clients, many, why would they want to remember what was so horrific for them? Yeah. They don't. No, I agree. They put it away in a compartment, they dissociate, they deny, so that they cope and go with light. And that is fantastic. And if that's, if it works for them, you know, we'll never see them. Yeah. That's fine. But if they come for therapy and there's a contract to actually look at how the past effects are present and be able to find out why they are so defensive in relationships, why they have intimacy issues, why communication breaks down and all these things. I don't believe it's to do perhaps some of the tumors in the history. Then we have a contract in the third big duty, I think, to help the person remember what perhaps was so by definition hard to remember. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's important as well that locking it away when they did was the best thing they could come up with at the time. If there was an easier way or a more healthy way, they would have done it, but a lot of the time, that's the best solution. Just don't think about it, lock it away. That's right. And I've said this in many podcasts and say here again, one of the major reasons most people come to therapy is to understand. Get the wanting their therapist to help them understand what has been so understandable for so many years. Yeah. The only way that can actually happen, contractually of course, is to revisit challenges in their past and help them understand what maybe was so understandable. And then they start to realise that in the context many, many years ago, it was made perfect sense. Yeah, yeah. And then they're not going crazy. No, 100%. Yeah. And that's a big thing with a lot of people, I think. Yeah, they think they're going crazy or there's something wrong with them or we could go on and on. Yeah. I think it, you know, I know that it's coming up to the end of the podcast, but I know for me in my past, there's been times, you know, where things have happened. And I can remember talking about it in a therapy session when I was training that I don't ever remember my mum being there. I know she was in the house, but I don't remember her being there. And it was said to me that maybe that's because she was in the house, but she wasn't emotionally available to you. So my memory on certain things is quite skewed, which again is something that can happen. Yeah. And it's helping the client understand what perhaps has been so ununderstandable. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And it's a privilege to work with those clients. Oh, it's probably the biggest privilege of my career. Yeah. When I look back at my career, I think I'm very proud of the impact that I've had in helping people transform their lives. But we can only do that if the two of us have the transparent contract and courage to visit these parts of the self, which have been so understandable and troublesome for people. I love the way that you put that, Bob, and courage to do it for the therapist as well as the clients. Oh, both. Yeah. And the other thing about this is, and I said it earlier on the podcast, is we need training. Therapists need training. I was very, very fortunate. I did a whole training in transactional analysis for seven or eight years in a more cognitive behavioural type of training. I then met a person who became my mentor, which is Richard Erskine, who worked in this relational developmental way I've been talking about in this podcast. And I sat in many, many, many therapy intensives or groups where I watched in works, and I became trained, trained me how to work this way. And I was being so fortunate because many, many, many therapists may not want to be trained in that particular way of working. Understand that. But they haven't had the training. So I really hope people listening have some sense of understanding what I'm talking about now because I may not have been trained in this particular way of working. But for me personally, it was such a gift in my career to have that type of training. Definitely. So I would say people who perhaps want to develop their skills of working in this type of way to look and see if there's any training on how we can work with clients in a relational developmental manner. I was very, very, very, very fortunate. You were, and you know, some of the names that you talk about the fundamental in the therapeutic world, you know, they're not going to be around forever, and yet you've trained with them. Which is amazing. And when I talk this podcast, I think, oh, I must come out of retirement. I know I'm not going to. I need to go back. It's a big part of me, but I know how much I help people. And I know I maybe some of the things I talk about myself with being indispensable. I know I'm not or anything. So I know I've retired, but I also know, you know, I love that type of work and, you know, what I can give to the professional career. So there is a grieving. I don't know which podcast I think podcast before this. There was certainly a grieving and a loss when I ended my career. I can imagine. This podcast stimulates that in me. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, from somebody who's attended the training at the Manchester Institute of Psychotherapy, you know, you've passed a lot of that on to so many people, you know, before me, after me, and with me, that, you know, the legacy will live on forever. I'm proud of that. Yeah. I've really, I know we've come to the end of class, but I've very much enjoyed talking about this and I hope I haven't. I hope it's been clear to people listening. Because retrieval of memory work, I think does need more training, but I also the biggest thing is to do this in a safe, secure, transparent way. So, if you have a client, then class won't feel overwhelmed. Yeah. And if they work in the way you talked about where you said that wonderfully, you know, if this this type of regression or this type of flashback happens, what would you like me to do is such a wonderful adult statement. I think it's a very protective way of working. Yeah. Thank you. So until the next time Bob, do we know what we're doing next time. I'm going to, I'll, I'll text you some. I mean, we have a long list, but and I haven't got in front of me, so I'll text you. So once again, it will be a surprise for everybody what we're doing. I mean, life is about surprises. Life's about curiosity, enjoyment, spontaneity. So yes. And adapting. It depends what happens between now and then. Right. Until next time, Bob. Yeah. Thank you very much. Bye. 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