 Good day, my lovely listeners! You are listening to the Forty Autie podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalising tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello listeners and welcome back to the Forty Autie podcast. How are you doing today? We're back up to the sunny skies. Today we are talking about autism and OCD. So this individual I met doing sort of like a BBC Radio Manchester video. We did it at my Taekwondo club, I think in Rochdale, and there was this lady who I sort of got in contact with called Louise Croones, who is sort of like an openly autistic BBC freelancer. And one of her co-workers was Nick Ransom, and today Nick Ransom is our guest. How are you doing? Hi. Yeah. Very good. Great to be on the podcast the last. I know, right? And we've met quite a few times in the past, firstly to do sort of the BBC video and then of course the documentary interview. I think we also met up a few times, just as like, I think it was your birthday or something. Yes it was, yeah. My birthday last year, yeah. Yeah. It had been a few times. Played some Fibbage. Yeah. It was an interesting matter. It was really good. I really enjoyed it. So yeah, would you like to give everyone a little bit of an introduction into who you are and what you do? Yeah, so as you know, I'm Nick and I currently work for the BBC at the moment. I'm currently working for BBC Bitesize Daily, which is the educational service at the BBC at the moment, obviously with the lockdown and everything like that. Students across the UK still need educating, so I was initially part of Bitesize for kind of the back end of December and then kind of continued into the year and then obviously when the virus hit then kind of got encouraged to come in and join the team on the daily program. So currently I'm kind of mixing kind of video editing with graphic design work and kind of organizing clips and just making sure that the content goes to the editors essentially. Previously I've worked on a question of sport and children need and I met you Tom obviously at Radio Manchester where I was a journalist for a digital journalist for a few months. So yeah, I'm very lucky to have got to my kind of goal really, which was to always work for a big media organization and I'm lucky to have finally got to where I want to be I guess, continue making programs and continue meeting different people and yeah, that's kind of what I'm doing at the moment. It's very cool and it's definitely not a job that is readily available to people. I think it's definitely quite an interesting job role to have. I think especially like, I mean, media is a very difficult industry to get into and I think one of the things that makes it hard, especially for autistic people is the sense that, you know, jobs, it's not, you can't just apply for a job in the media industry. It's all about connections. It's all about chatting to people and meeting people and that's something I still don't think I'm 100% greater doing to be honest, I kind of thrown myself into it to try and chat to people but it's, you know, I do find myself having a tendency to go on the web and just search for jobs in the industry, which I know don't really exist. It's kind of, I mean, some of them do and some of them are advertised on Facebook groups and whatever but it's more of an industry where, yeah, you've got to have a nice book of contacts and yeah, I suppose to some degree that kind of discriminates those who are perhaps socially disabled, shall we say, or disinvances, yeah. Yeah, and I do remember sort of with our longer form interview. I think you mentioned something about you started YouTube in your secondary school and you sort of took a shine to the whole media world. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I can only ever remember, you know, when people would talk about what you want to do in the future, even when I was like six or seven or something like that, I'd be walking around with a microphone and talking into it or, you know, something like that. And eventually, yeah, I gravitated towards YouTube and that was starting to grow and I did a little kind of web show it was at the time. And yeah, a lot of it is still online. So I mean, it's very embarrassing to look back on now. But now obviously it's part of the journey. Got to start somewhere. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, ever since I've kind of had that discussion of do I go to university, it was kind of always going to be television and always going to be somewhere in a media city, which is a real hub of media. These days is kind of it's amazing. Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? It's where it's all out, you know? It's like the actual media city building seems like some strange sort of tech utopian tech future is a bit crazy, especially like with all the levels and all the building structure and all the rooms where people record and stuff. It's a very surreal place to go to. Especially, I think, you know, especially if you're studying at university and you just see the outside of these walls and you just think what's in there and what goes on in there and what conversations go on in there and to finally kind of end up in those walls being people that make some decisions is incredible, really. So yeah, obviously working from home at the moment. So I do miss the beauty of the BBC a bit. But yeah, it's an incredible place to be. And the technology and the infrastructure they've got there is just is well class and to be part of that is an honour, really. So just for the listeners out there, as I said, this definitely isn't the first type of content of myself and Nick have made or collaborated on. We did the BBC Radio Manchester video, then the documentary. Now a podcast, of course. Yeah, we've done the whole set. What was the filming process like for you? I know it was a little bit of a short sort of thing, but did you enjoy it? Yeah, it was. Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I've always been one very open and honest. It's obviously autistic people generally are. And yeah, I've never usually had a kind of problem talking away about myself. But yeah, it was it was good to get it all out. I mean, it was such it feels like years ago now. But yeah, it's at least a year ago, definitely. Yeah, but, you know, I think it's it's great that autistic people get, you know, have to be able to now have a voice and able to talk about it and post their own content. And, you know, I did a video when I came out of, you know, when once I just had my diagnosis and the kind of self confidence it brings you by doing a YouTube video or a documentary like you did is is very important. So I think, yeah, it was it was good to be a part of. And yeah, so, you know, it's you got a nice balance of of people in really. So it's it's it's difficult to often describe what autism is or what what autistic people are like. But I think, yeah, just variety and trying to capture a range is important. Yeah, I invited both you and Adam, I think with some I'm friends with Adam and I've had him on the podcast. But like the other people that came along were surprisingly very, very, very different from each other. Yeah, it was it it did sort of quite astound me at the sort of range of personalities and opinions that that were there and even even experiences to some degree. And it was it was quite sort of humbling to listen to people's stories. I suppose that's one of the reasons why I wanted to put more into the podcast because I like talking to people about stuff like this. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the most fascinating things, you know, not just in my world, but but generally is is just, you know, finding out about autism. And even if I wasn't autistic, I think I'd be really fascinated by it. And yeah, the amount of depth and an interest you kind of, you know, the interest that the autistic people have is just is phenomenal, really. So I think, yeah, the more the more we share their stories or our stories, I should say that the better really definitely going on to talk about you again. What is your experience with autism? When were you diagnosed and what sort of impact did that diagnosis have on your life? Yeah, I mean, it was a it was a situation where yeah, at home, when I was younger at school and stuff, I'd be I'd be fine at home. Sorry, I'd be fine at school. I'd be, you know, I'd crack on with my lessons and I'd be fine learning and that would be OK. And then at home, I'd just kind of come home and tear the house apart really. And yeah, I don't know. I think in terms of anxiety. Yeah, just kind of letting all my frustrations out on my parents who, you know, did an incredible job putting up with me now. And yeah, I think I just, you know, I'd have tantrums and I'd, you know, terribly, you know, behave kids. And but my parents couldn't figure it out because, you know, at school, I was, you know, I was coping and I put all my efforts into kind of making it through the school day and trying not to, you know, kind of crack under learning and, you know, the socialization of everything. And I think I just thought, you know, it's just just who I am. I'm just I didn't think probably think too much about it. I just think I enjoyed school and at home I just found life more stressful and I don't know why I think it's because perhaps at school I thought that life should be stressful and it kind of it wasn't. And then at home when, you know, you're supposed to be kind of relaxing and you're supposed to be kind of chilled, I'd kind of, you know, let small things get to me. And I think that's something that happens even more now. I'm more comfortable in the work environment. I'm always I'm happy. I'm happier when I'm being productive really. Whereas at home where you're supposed to be, you know, chilling and relaxing and stuff like that, I'm not I'm not very good at it. So no, I mean, either that's kind of I know it. It is a very sort of backwards way of living really. But yeah, so I think so what happened was, yeah, essentially at the end of my kind of teenage years, I was still kind of, you know, finding life domestically quite difficult. And yeah, I was kind of I think I don't know if I was at university. Yeah, I think I was at university by this point. Kind of I'd done my first year. And yeah, it'd been quite an intense first year with kind of parties and flatmates and whatever. And by the time it got to, yeah, getting on 19, I guess, or something, my my mum went to the doctor and said, I mean, obviously, I've been at university for most of the year and then I've come home during the summer or whatever. And she said, you know, I don't I don't think I'm not sure I can't put my finger on it, but my son's not acting like a normal 19 year old or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And she she told me this and I was like, right, I'll try not to be offended by that. I'll just kind of, you know, go with it. And yeah, it was it was weird. So she so I kind of blanked it out and went, you know what, that's that's her opinion. She can go and do what she likes. And I'm all very stubborn at this point. And yeah, and then I kind of, yeah, I said, oh, yes, that was it. So a few months later, I went to Reading Pride because I tickled the diversity box, as you see. And yeah, so I was with my my then partner at the time. And there's about eight of us on this day day out at this very sunny, loud music event, I guess. And yeah, there was just something inside of me that just kind of wasn't just didn't feel right, like that the switch was some one switch wasn't on inside of me, it felt like. And I was driving home that day. And I I went, hmm, I wonder if there's anything in because my mum had told me when she she went to the doctors. It might be Asperger's or or something like that. And and I was like, hmm, maybe there is something in that. Yeah. And yeah, I ended up kind of getting home and googling and doing my research. And yeah, within probably a few hours or a few days, it was it was OK. You were right, you know, kind of thing. This sounds like me. And then I was kind of as as obsessive as she was about figuring out, you know, a diagnosis and and finding some sort of, yeah, a sense of it also. So yeah, I kind of went through my my GP and to them about it. And yeah, obviously it was quite a quick diagnosis, really, within about five months. And I was I was in in Chester here in Manchester. So yeah, it was very, very quick. Yeah, a lot of people wait years, don't they? Yeah, I'm very, very lucky to be able to have that. But yeah, I went to Chester and my mum drove up from the south and came came with me and I took a day out of uni to go out. And, you know, it was it was kind of a formality from then on, really. I think one of one of the interviewees on the documentary, Peter Bainbridge did did say that like resistance to help and stuff usually happens between like our teenage and an adulthood. And like, even though I was diagnosed when I was 10, I was still very resistant to just how much autism was a part of me. So I saw it as like an add on thing. And I saw it as the the social difficulties and the sensory stuff. And that's all it really was to me. Yeah. But I'd seem to be getting on all right. You know, I had like a I had a girlfriend and I had some sort of loose friends around me. I never really had any, never had much, much motivation to to read into autism or I just sort of went off what my mum told me when I was going through a bad patch. It's it's hard to sort of get yourself to take it more seriously. When it's I found it some for me, it was like an ego thing. Like I didn't want to be a part of something. I wanted to be just just Tom and I'm a I'm a phenomenon on its own rather than a group of people, I guess. Yeah. I think there's there's a lot of truth in that in the sense that if you're told you're different from a very early age, that is that is often very difficult to accept. And I think there's there's got to be, you know, and I'm sure there's research going into this all the time. But I think there's an element of you've got to explain it in such a way that being different is is actually everyone wants to everyone is different in some way. So I think it's yeah, it's trying trying to teach from a very early age that being different is not a bad thing. And I think that's yeah, you know, I was lucky to kind of have positive out of it, I guess. So yeah, like there's there's one thing that I picked up on when you're you know, you're saying about sort of being fine at school and and not having too much stress and then going home. It's like it's usually when people explain explain to me what schools like it is. It's usually the stress levels and the sensory stuff and the social stuff and having to cope with that on sort of a long term basis during the school day sort of drains your energy so that when you come home and when you're in a safe environment, that's when you just you stop putting up those walls of trying to act composed and stuff. And and so it sort of comes out in your emotions. Yeah, 100 percent. I think, yeah, it is it is strange. I mean, at school, I was I was a very kind of, you know, I knew lots of people, but the problem is I didn't have many friends. That was the thing you kind of what I did. And, you know, what I was about with video and, you know, that kind of thing. And so, yeah, yeah, it's it's a strange one. I felt like, oh, actually, I'm quite well, not popular, but I felt like I kind of oh, right, people know me kind of thing, which is cool. But then after a while, yeah, I realized actually no one was hanging out with me full time, which was kind of, yeah, a weird one. But as I strangely empathize with that quite a lot, because I used to be extremely quiet and I only really chatted to people over like messenger and stuff. Yeah. And so like when I started my condo stuff and I, you know, I started getting published in the newspaper and in the school magazine and put up in the PE department. It's like people knew who I was. It's just I didn't have that strong any sort of strong connection with somebody, or at least I didn't feel like I did. So I understand. I think I understand that quite as well. So I've been like the isolated celebrity. Yeah, yeah, there's an odd one. I mean, I think because, yeah, naturally autistic people are so, you know, excited and attached to their obsession to some degree. Naturally, that's going to that's going to stand out. And I think it's good that, you know, we're praised for our interests and we're good that we're praised for our kind of fascination and obsession with things. But but also, yeah, it's it can kind of all come a bit of, you know, a bit weird at the same time kind of thing, which yeah, I mean, it's funny, like looking back at myself when, you know, I wasn't labeled as autistic when I was just labeled as Nick, it was looking back. Yeah, I can can totally see elements where I was very kind of determined and very isolated in my own little way, I guess. But yeah, it is strange looking back at scenarios, knowing what you know now, isn't it? Yeah, it is. Like, especially with just learning all the different ins and outs of autism. And and to be honest, I think the main thing that really makes me reflect is going into schools and seeing autism in children, you know, from that time that I was in that situation and just sort of viewing it from a different angle. That's that's a very strange experience. It's it's really weird because you could if there were if I was a teacher looking at myself like I wouldn't be able to tell what the problem is. So it's kind of like when I'm when I'm in the class, I always try to make sure that I give each sort of kid as much attention as as the other was the no matter if they were doing well or bad or just because you don't know what's under the surface to you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think I think that's you fit the nail on the head there about about autism. Is it something that's so sort of sometimes it's I mean, there are obviously elements where autism can be very severe and and that kind of thing. But yeah, I mean, especially with kind of asperges, which is kind of I mean, obviously doesn't exist anymore. But yeah, yeah, which which I think I think that's the one where can really catch people out. And actually, you can look totally normal and you're masking it all totally well. And by the time you get around to, you know, coming home or something else, your whole life changes it on kind of flips on its head. So yeah, I could speak for hours about school and that kind of thing. But yeah, it blew my neck. So we are here primarily to talk about the relationship between autism and obsessive compulsive disorder or OCD, as most people know it. And along with a lot of other conditions that just seem to be a link to autism. When I was pulling, I was putting together this quiz called the big autism quiz. So I put on for a few Instagram advocates and stuff. And we're trying to figure out like a pick the wrong answer kind of question for what is comorbid with autism or asperges. And we couldn't find one like it just seems it seems that everywhere we look, it's like everything's comorbid with autism, which is a bit strange. Yeah, I mean, it's impossible to describe really, isn't it? There's so many. I mean, you'd have to literally get every autistic person in a room to be able to define it, you know, it's just a total it's like with anything, it's just such a massive spectrum, isn't it? Yes. And I do think that there are some commonalities between autism and OCD, you know, with the sort of repetitive nature and the obsessions and all of that. Yeah, I mean, I think they're almost so much of it that crosses over and there's so so much that runs parallel. I mean, it's, you know, autism is naturally about kind of being obsessive and kind of black and white thinking. And that's the kind of reality of it really in the sense that you're either one way or the other. And that's that's something that I find all the time. Like, I can't do do half, you know, I end up either putting on weight or losing weight. And that's just just one example, you know, it's me too. Oh, it's chaos. I've never heard anyone say that before. Yeah, I do that all the time. It's never on the stable way. It's always up and down. Yeah, so I think it's just like things like that. And like TV programs. So like this week, for example, I've been watching a lot of air crash investigation, as you do, probably haven't seen for years. And now I'm just back addicted to it. So yeah, it's, I think that's what's kind of, you know, being obsessive is at the heart of autism for me anyway. And you know, that that detail and, you know, my big selling point when I'm kind of looking for work and stuff is that I'm my attention to detail is is, I'd like to think, you know, kind of unparalleled. And yeah, when I'm, you know, watching TV shows or when I'm watching back work that we've done classic example on bite size recently, just just to like a very small consistency thing where we've written a URL on the screen and it was bbc.co.uk. And then on the next slide, it was www.bbc.co.uk. And that was heartbreaking. So I mean, that kind of thing is obviously has a great advantage. But we've had a few mistakes over the series, which I think everyone can can, you know, I mean, nobody would notice really, I don't think they're kind of really minor mistakes, which, you know, everyone makes minor mistakes. And I'm sure in every single possible thing, there's a minor mistake somewhere. You know, I think there's there's a lot of, although media is a creative thing, I think there's a lot of logic and a lot of sense behind everything that's done. So it's great, you know, to have people like that in the workplace. But I think I'm, I'm learning, yeah, kind of when to when it's a big deal and when it when it really isn't a big deal. Yeah, it's a balance. It's a very strange balance. I completely get that I am, I do often get very obsessed about very small minor details. But like, you've told me a little bit about sort of the, I guess, more of the positive side of OCD. In what ways does it affect you negatively? Yeah, as I said, I've mentioned mentioned a lot of positives there. But yeah, negatively, I mean, in relationships in the past and still to this day, it's it's difficult not to become obsessive about somebody's flaws. I think that's, that's something that I'm probably going to battle with my whole life. I find it very difficult to, you know, I'm such a perfectionist that that I want the highest standards, and you're never going to, you're never going to get that from someone, you know, that's, that's the reality is that relationships sort of, you know, go up and down and there are okay days and there are sort of terrible days and there were great days and that you know, it's going up and down constantly. You can never work in kind of just black and white with a relationship, which I think is at the heart of kind of relationship OCD, which is what I've experienced. Yeah, I had an experience a few years ago where I left my partner at the time and I kind of hadn't heard really much of OCD or relationship OCDs as there is as well. I hadn't really heard of it. So I kind of then look back on things and realized that I'd actually, you know, kind of left this person for what was a very small and insignificant thing, really. So yeah, we actually, I mean, we managed to rekindle things at the time and it was, it was actually all all right for a while. So it's a strange one where relationship, you know, and social, it kind of predominantly affects my my social life, my OCD, which I suppose some people might find strange when they think of OCD, but yeah, I'm very obsessive about relationships, I guess, that's that's what it is. It's very intriguing, because it's kind of like, honestly, as much as I've sort of looked into OCD and sort of learned about it at university, I was sort of expecting like, you know, the typical sort of negatives of not being able to go to sleep, you have to flip the light switch on or off, but you, you are like, I've never heard of like relationship OCD. Yeah, so it's, yeah, it's one form of it. I mean, yeah, I mean, when I was younger, actually, I mean, it's funny when we talk about light switches and stuff. And obviously, I didn't know I was anywhere near autism or OCD at this point. Yeah, I used to turn off light switches a lot before I went to bed and make sure they're all off and doors locked and that kind of thing, trying, what, it's compulsive decisions about relationships really. And so, yeah, I've kind of learned what's, I'm learning what is a big deal and what, what isn't. But yeah, I mean, it's, I still, I still wonder, you know, because it's kind of real just anxiety, just, you know, OCD is anxiety really at the end of the day. And it's, it's looking at things in such great depth and such detail that, that naturally it's going to have flaws. And so, it's a very strange thing. And I think at that time when I left my partner, I ended up going into, because I had no relationship to think about, I ended up with just OCD. I was actually on my break from university, it was kind of January where universities aren't operating. And yeah, as I said, I was watching the news and a lot of kind of dark stories would fill my mind and kind of, kind of, yeah, graphic images. And it was, yeah, it was, it was terrible, really, because my mind was obsessing over, you know, really dark things, which it didn't, it was only doing because, you know, I kind of put myself into that very stressed, anxious position because of, you know, leaving the relationship really, rather say, I kind of fueled the fire to some degree. Yeah. And so, yeah, it kind of ended up in a bit of a, yeah, depressive, obsessive situation. And yeah, I ended up having kind of treatment with kind of antidepressants and counseling and you know, bits of everything. So, yeah, I mean, I was lucky afterwards, as I said, that my, you know, my partner at the time kind of understood and we kind of rekindle things. So, yeah, it wasn't a great situation, but I think, you know, the amount of stuff I learned on the back of that was just, just incredible, really. Yeah. I'd never thought about the, sort of how OCD could affect relationships. I think I sort of see that a little bit in myself as well. You know, I'm not trying to take anything away from you or anything like that. Yeah, sometimes depending on my levels of anxiety, I do sort of tend to be a bit more nitpicky in my own head. It's not really something that I say a lot, but there is always something that I think could be better or could be changed or I guess that sort of perfection kind of mindset is a little bit harmful. But I've always been sort of quite stepped back. I always tried to like think things over a lot before I bring stuff up and I guess that sort of attitude to it lends itself more to a good sort of outlook on it, I guess. Yeah. I think you're right. It's good to be kind of considered and it's good to be kind of meticulous and fixated with something, but it's, yeah, it can also have its negatives all at the same time. Yeah, you're right. It's, yeah, I mean, there's so many misconceptions around OCD generally around kind of what people think it is. I mean, the Wikipedia page for OCD has people, someone washing their hands, which I think kind of says it all. Yeah. I mean, people say, yeah, I'm a little OCD and to begin with, when I first heard that, I mean, yeah, I was kind of all right with it. But now, you know, I've experienced it and I've learned more about it. Yeah. It's strange when someone says I'm a little OCD. I think I'd rather they'd say a little obsessive, but yeah, I get why people say, just kind of language sort of evolves to kind of fit what's what people know and what people have heard. But so do you say there's a lot of misconceptions around OCD? Yeah, I mean, it's I totally get why people say, oh, you know, you're being a little OCD here or whatever. And I get why they're using it. But the actual a little OCD isn't really a thing to be fair. I mean, obsessive compulsive disorder is what it is. It's it's where you're totally be a little bit obsessive. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't know. It's yeah, it's just impossible really. You can be a little bit ordered and you can be a little bit kind of tidy or you can be a little bit. Yeah, there's a difference between being organized and being kind of tidy. And I know somebody who has I can't remember what it was called, but it was some sort of perfectionist thing. But it wasn't it is it is like a disorder, but it's not very known about. And I know someone who is quite on that perfectionist side of things, but he's not like they're not like obsessive and compulsive about it. It's just sort of it comes across as being a little bit controlling and a little bit sort of difficult, difficult to navigate a conversation when there's something that is needed to be done because it's like they've got a plan in their head for everything and all that kind of stuff. And I guess that that in most people's head would cross over with OCD, I guess. Yeah, I think yeah, it's it's where you draw the line between being ordered and structured and clued up and things and where you kind of organized. Yeah, but there's a balance and there's a line between that really isn't it between where it crosses over into obsessive really. It is it's a disorder because it causes disorder in lives. Which I think those comments about sort of being a little bit OCD doesn't make any sense because if it's OCD to an amount that it's okay, it's not a disorder. I just I just find it illogical like it doesn't like upset me or anything. It's just like what do you mean? What do you mean you're a bit OCD? You're not like. Yeah, I mean to be fair, I mean people who say I'm a little bit OCD might genuinely have OCD, might not, but yeah, I think it's just it's kind of misinformation about it. And it's just it's harmful to those who who are genuinely genuinely are suffering really. I guess like in the media and stuff a lot of the sort of cases that you see on OCD come in the form of those channels where they highlight people who are very extreme OCD like people who wash their hands with like bleach and all of and all that kind of stuff and have to get up every 10 minutes to look out the window or else they feel like the house is going to explode. We see that sort of extreme of OCD, I guess, and we don't see the sort of more I'm not going to say more common, but less more common extreme. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, less extreme. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I think I mean, I think autism and you know, I think OCD sits within autism really. And I think if you've got autism, you've got it's all autism is about kind of obsessive and and repetitive behaviors, isn't it? So, so yeah, it's it's all consuming really. It's all it's all part of the same thing I would say in my opinion. Yeah, I think definitely I do have that sort of obsessive mindset, but I don't have much of the I don't have much of compulsion. It's like I use obsessions and stuff as a form of helping my anxiety and sort of making it so that I don't have to organize myself if I have like a schedule or something, then I'm not constantly worried about what time it is and whether I should move on to the next thing. I just have it there like telling me what to do. So in that sense, it's more of a emotional crutch rather than a compulsion, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can yeah, I can relate to that. It's yeah, I mean, some some things, you know, I think I think that the fundamental key to OCD is that I mean, some people genuinely do have to compulsively act, but I think when you can you can hold your compulsions down and you can sort of say, no, it's it's okay. Yeah, when you're not acting on your compulsions as much, it's obviously much easier. But that sounds like such a daft thing to say, but yeah, does that make any sense? A little bit, yeah. I think I get what you mean. Like, you fuel the fire if you give in to your compulsions. Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I get that. Like, but I think the thing is it's also good to sort of highlight what this disorder means, what the name means. Like obsessions of things that for anybody out there, the things that you think about a lot and you can't really get out of your head and compulsions are the things that you do in order to cope with those obsessions. Like as a so it's like a a relationship between the two. What happens? And so you do the other thing to make it go away. Kind of thing. And that's the sort of like base understanding of it, I guess. But then obviously, as you said, it's it can be a lot more complicated than that. Can sort of influence your life in different ways, depending on the person. Yeah. I mean, there's so many different ways it can kind of yeah, kind of come on. So, you know, I mean, there's like, you know, skin picking is it could be described as obsessive or bitey nails and that kind. You know, those those sort of things also come into it. So there's such a big, yeah, again, a big spectrum really that has so much, so much to it really. And yeah, people might have OCD and might not realise. So, I mean, you know, I always say that the more you know about yourself, the better really. Yeah. I think people are scared of putting labels on because they see it as like labelling themselves and it's either they're afraid that people are going to look in and think, ah, you know, OCD, you've lived for your life. You don't need to get this diagnosis, you're doing fine kind of thing. Yeah. Or it's like people think that you're trying to get like attention or trying to be part of like an equitation about special group or being different and stuff. And I think there's a lot of difficulty around that for people. Like you don't want to come across as garnering attention. It's like, I think understanding yourself is quite important. I think like it is strange because when I've come across people who aren't autistic, but do have some aspect of OCD, it is sometimes hard for me to distinguish the sort of superficial traits, I suppose, to an extent, because I guess OCD comes with anxiety a lot of the time. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing. There's so many, I mean autism, I believe is just a connection of, that's kind of a list of symptoms essentially that make up autism and OCD is similar. And there's this kind of attributes that kind of mirror across a lot of things. So Superficially, it looks quite similar. Yeah, it looks similar, but everything sort of slightly overlaps, I guess. So what sort of strategies and treatments do you use to cope with these sort of OCD related symptoms? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I try and stay on, I try and speak to a counselor as much as I can really and try and I mean, I think the first thing of overcoming anything is that you've got to be open-minded and you've got to be receptive to help and willing to listen really. I think that's number one for any sort of treatment for anything really. So that's something I do a lot of. Antidepressants, I think, are important to things as well. I think there seems sometimes a bit of a treatment for OCD. Yeah, OCD, yeah. So yeah, there's there are drugs which can change the brain to be less. I mean, I'm not a scientist, but yeah, it can help with the effects of it anyway. So that's something, as I say, that I've used before. But yeah, I think it has to be a mix of everything really. I think it has to be a mix of yeah, kind of self-talking therapies and antidepressants have helped as well. So I think that's kind of how I manage it. But yeah, I mean, there are moments where it feels like I'm becoming too obsessive about this and how do you stop that? How do you stop the slide if that makes sense? Yeah, because I guess you can get obsessed as well about trying to fix it as well when you sort of drive up your anxiety about it. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, yeah, I mean, I've learnt making rash decisions is daft now and making big decisions quickly is not a good idea. It's kind of how I approach things these days, I guess. So I mean, yeah, if my relationship's struggling or if I'm becoming too obsessive about one particular detail of it, then I try and step away before making any rash decisions. But then that kind of naturally leads you into a position where you're just very emotionally fueled. Yeah, exactly. And you can just hold off making decisions and just not make them if that makes sense. And sometimes decisions do have to be made. So sometimes I'm a bit too cautious, and now I've sort of gone the other way. And that's the thing is you're always sort of going from one end to the other. And there's never any in between. I don't think. So I found that middle ground. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I think that's it. And I always try and say that I'm not great at dealing with change because it totally throws all the scales off completely. And actually, my counsellor said to me the other day that you've proved that you are actually quite good at dealing with change. And yeah, you've coped with going to university. You've coped getting a job. You've coped with the virus crisis. So I think it's just giving yourself more credit sometimes, isn't it? And I think that's something I've learned with OCD is that even if you do make a decision, you've coped before. So you'll cope again, kind of thing. But it's kind of just becoming more, making more rational decisions. You know, I've found over the last month or so, well, what I've started doing is started like doing a little daily journal of kind of what goes on. And sometimes I've just kind of updating on what's happened in the day. But yeah, a journal and a diary as itself has had massive effects for me over the last month or so, just writing things down and kind of gathering evidence, really, for future decisions, I guess. And that's 100% it is that if you can work out how you work and how and what your kind of triggers are and what kind of can upset you and what can also work for you is really, really important. So I think for any autistic person, it's just self-improvement and that, you know, you should put your obsession into learning really rather than anything else if you can. Yeah. I think journaling and writing, sort of jotting down things that happen or things that you've realized about yourself or others or interaction can be a very potent tool for improving yourself and pulling up any sort of deficits that you have. I found that that in combination with reading and sort of gathering experience from life is the way that I sort of improve my social skills and my executive functioning and all that kind of stuff. I think there's a common misconception that as you get older, you get more mature whereas it's really not like that. The amount of maturity that you gain is very dependent on how much actionable work you do if that makes sense. Yeah, you're right. I think it is just learning and being open to things. And I remember when I was younger, I had so many instances where I was just so single-minded and didn't listen to anyone. And I think listening is just one of the most critical things. And I think that's why in any relationship, isn't it? It's communication and in any area of life, it's all communication. And the more knowledge you have about a subject the better you're going to react. So, yeah, as I said, writing stuff down for me has proved invaluable, really, because I can then search for possessions or something like that or just anything in my diary because I've tagged them all and see what I last did on that subject if that makes sense. So it's like having a little journalist your life. So that would be my advice to anybody who might be struggling. Would you say that in a scenario where you've spent a lot, you're all day at work and then you've got a social gathering and your social batteries very low. Do you think that those, that sort of expenditure makes you more vulnerable to that sort of OCD tendency? Yeah, I suspect when you're tired and you've had a long day or something like that that you can become more obsessive. But in my experience, I think when I'm working because I'm obsessive, actually, you know, because I'm working hard and that's satisfying. You know, it's the satisfaction, I think that takes the energy out of the fire if that makes sense. It can be exhausting during the day. But if you're satisfied by it and everything's working well and everything's working as planned, it can be incredibly satisfying and incredibly rewarding. So in that sense, you know, I don't find work, sometimes work can be tiring, but on the whole I'd say it takes the energy out of what would be a day where I'd just be thinking and wondering and stuck in my own head for most of the day. So distraction is a very important thing for me. So I've actually got a few days off this week. So I've had yesterday off and today and the weekend as well. How is that for you? Yeah, I mean, yesterday was okay because I woke up late and I just kind of enjoyed catching up on things that I wanted to catch up on. But then today I knew that I needed to do something productive. So yeah, it was, I've been working on my website and I've been trying to, obviously talk to you and try and actually be productive with my day. And that's the thing that's most satisfying for me is being productive really and getting things done. And yeah, I mean, sometimes I'll be knackered, but I think my ability to keep going when I've got momentum, yeah, exactly, is great. So it does have its benefits, yeah. I get that to some extent because if I've got an idea of how the day is going to go and what I'm going to produce and how productive I'm going to be. If there are any things in my day that don't go to plan in my head, it can usually quite heavily affect my mood on the night. But if everything goes perfectly and I do everything that I need to do and sometimes even before my allotted time, my confidence and my anxiety is low and I feel great and I can relax. But if it doesn't go to plan, then I'll just have to keep working on it into the evening because if I don't, then I feel bad about myself. Yeah, I totally get that. I think there's a massive element of determination and resilience that you mentioned earlier in carrying on, and I think that element where you have masses of determination and masses of inclination to get things done. But what can be dangerous is that I guess at the end of the road when you're losing all your energy, you kind of collapse and you end up more frustrated, yeah. We have talked a little bit about the interplay between autism and OCD and what makes someone lean towards sort of an OCD like tendency. It does seem from the statistics online that anxiety seems to be the biggest comorbid thing with autism and I know that anxiety can interplay with OCD as well. So it's weird looking at those statistics. I feel like if you did like a, do you call it like a Venn diagram where you're not a Venn diagram? Oh yeah, yeah, Venn diagram. You have circles overlapping and stuff and yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. I feel like there'd be, if we were to plot every single sort of diagnosis down, I think autism would sort of be the biggest circle there sort of tie things in together. Yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, I think there's, you know, a lot of things sit within each other and yeah, it's, there'd be a lot, yeah, there'd be certainly a lot going on in the autism circle, I would imagine. In terms of things, yeah, things that make it up. Yeah. And I think maybe autism and OCD is comorbid or maybe autism is comorbid with anxiety and maybe that's, that anxiety makes someone more susceptible to things like OCD and depression and stuff like that. It's just not something that anyone sort of gone down in the rabbit hole kind of with. It's always been, this is what the statistics show for you more likely for this. It's never like delved into the intricacies of it, I suppose. It's all very, very interesting. Let's talk, go back to the documentary a little bit because obviously like, I've sort of over the past couple of weeks I've been getting in contact with different interviewees to try and get them onto the podcast because I feel like although I tried my very best to represent people's opinions and views in the documentary, as I said, I cut it down a massive amount and I left out a lot of different chunks of opinions, some more than others. And I really wanted to get you onto the podcast sort of give people an idea of your views more in depth because I think every story is different from what I gathered from the interviews. So it's very interesting. Probably in the last two years I was all very positive about autism and I was very, after I was diagnosed, I was very, very kind of let's shout about the positives and that kind of thing. But I don't know, maybe it's just now that it's kind of settled down and I've kind of worked out what my reality is that perhaps I'm slightly more not as helpful sometimes. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I've become actually a bit more yeah, more realistic and more maybe a little bit more negative about how it affects my life. But I think it genuinely just depends which, what mood I'm in or what I'm going through is kind of my view on autism. But I think when I think about it rationally, I think there's so many positives to it and I certainly wouldn't have had the exciting life I've had now with work and my career and stuff. So yeah, I think I do look at it as I'm very lucky to have this mindset that makes me obsessive and has made me achieve things. So yeah, I think there's negatives to it that I continue to find out every day, but there are a lot of positives to it as well. People either take one of two stances when they sort of get their diagnosis. It's either autism is horrible and everything about it is terrible or it's, oh wow, look how many, there's so many people who have so many similarities with me. It's great and look at all the things that it can do. And I think you can either take either to one of those mindsets to it. I guess my mindset was more on the negative side, I guess. Maybe it depends. As I said earlier, yeah, I met this person when I was doing my final project university which was a radio documentary about this guy who was autistic and yeah, he was diagnosed when he was like eight or something like that, which for me I can't comprehend because ultimately you'd have so much more awareness but also potential self-doubt and I'm losing my way. You can't be mindlessly oblivious to it. Exactly, yeah, and you're going to consider it more and that might lead you down more of a dangerous path, but yeah, I think as I said earlier, there's an element where you've got to try and teach kids that although you're autistic, that's just a part of you and there's so many positives that can come from it as well and I think that's it, yeah, is to try and not crush their self-moral from an early age which can sometimes happen. Yeah, and I think there are some downsides and upsides to early and late diagnosis, why I think a lot of us see early diagnosis as like a complete gift, like there's nothing wrong about it, but I guess if I wasn't diagnosed with autism, I wouldn't sort of attribute my struggles to it as much whereas it's like I used to when I had like a breakdown or a meltdown, I sort of asked my mom, like why am I autistic, why am I born this way and whereas I think I'd probably had a tiny bit more support than most people going through the education system, not a massive amount though. Yeah, school can be such a tough time anyway and so to add autism into the mix and there's this, yeah, I suppose there's always this debate about whether you put your child into a school that might be more catered towards them or you just let them integrate with life I guess and work their own way out, but I suppose it depends on every single child's needs and now I suppose it just falls under autism and it's a kind of greater spectrum I guess. I suppose there's more scenarios that may occur that may have different results. Yeah, one thing that is common is that the way of living life for an autistic person is not common between people. Like one thing that works for someone else might not work for them and early diagnosis for one person might be terrible or late diagnosis and... That's the thing, I mean there's so many different experiences of autism and you see so many, it's good that there's more in the media nowadays, I mean there's plenty of programs out there that are showing the various sides of it but I think yeah, it's considered, I mean most of the characters I see on TV or that kind of thing are more female around... Oh sorry, more male and you don't see enough female people who are autistic which is obviously the thing. So yeah, I mean the narrative around autism needs to evolve really into... It's not just men, it's women as well and... It's not sort of attributed just to one race or... Yeah, exactly and it's trying to paint a giant, a bigger rainbow really that caters to everyone rather than just kind of paint a kind of very linear view of things. So yeah, I think the more experiences that go out there, the better really but yeah, it's a fact that there's more men diagnosed with autism but I think that's because it was kind of... Easy to pick up on. Yeah, exactly and probably I think most of the evidence at the start was probably from men. So yeah, I think it's never evolving thing I think and I'm sure the symptoms that make up autism will continue to kind of evolve and kind of develop as more research goes on. So I think it's good that it's out there and it's good that we've got stuff like autism awareness week. Yeah, it's the role of the media really to kind of paint a bigger picture of autism really. So yeah, great, we've talked about the documentary and a bit about autism and OCD and the crossovers. Would you like to give us free main takeaway points that you want people to remember? Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think number one would be continue to ask for help when you need it. I think that's a lot at the moment but it's just so true that I think even if you're... This morning I woke up really early and didn't feel great and I just went for a walk and I spoke to my mum and that changed things significantly. So yeah, I think never be afraid to chat to somebody. I think probably pursue your dreams I guess. So if you've got an ambition, if you've got something just go for it and kind of leads me back to my point earlier is that if you want it bad enough you'll get there and I know these are all kind of very cliche sort of things but yeah, this is kind of where I'd say. And then third point, yeah, just listen I guess, try and expand your knowledge I guess and that's something that I suppose I've discovered during this little chat I think I need to do more of is just try and read more and learn more and try not to get too complacent that you're fine in dealing with things on your own because nobody can face life alone really. You've got to talk to others and you've got to find out experiences and you've got to try and learn and that's the only way you'll live a happy-ish life I guess is if you kind of open your mind I guess. And yeah, I suppose it just comes down to kind of respect and trying to learn again, learn as much as you can but yeah, those will be my three points so yeah. I definitely agree with you on that last one especially like even if you do feel like you can get through anything there's only so much that you can tackle at one time and obviously if you've got like a job that's quite demanding like you've got it's going to be difficult to fit in all of that stuff isn't it? Yeah, I think you can always find a new rhythm quite quickly I've found. I think yes, you're autistic people might struggle with chains but actually we like our routines and actually once we've found something that works we can stick to it and we can but I think it's just it's trying to find a balance of not being too afraid to change but also sort of accept your ways of working I guess. Everything's a balancing act. Yeah exactly, it's a balancing act and we don't we don't do balance we do one way the other which is kind of the problem. Yeah. But yeah. So let's move on to the last question which is always an open question so you can respond in any way you want which I know is probably not helpful. What does autism mean to you Nick? Yeah, let me have a little think I mean there's been a lot of open-ended questions here I usually struggle with questions but like that but no yeah I think it's I think it's a talent that is a talent that is ultimately not given the light of day sometimes and I think autism has so many good stories behind it and so many talents and so many skills that could be of use in this world and often they get overlooked because you know because somebody can't communicate or somebody finds things difficult and you know Alan Turing who was suspected to have had autism on some level he you know he helped change the face of the Second World War so I think you know there's so much that can be uncovered by investing in autistic people and trying to give them a bit more respects and a bit more a few more opportunities and I think yes things will go wrong and yes autistic people might not do things as you'd expect but ultimately if you invest in them then things will come off and you know I think back to that lady who helped me at this charity I still keep in contact with and yeah without her investing in me she didn't know I was autistic at the time but she knew probably there was something different about me and you know just investing in people I think is something that I think is really important to autism and showing them respect and time and patience is critical to kind of opening up their skills and also potentially getting some rewards to yourself so yeah that's kind of what it means to me and I suppose that's the most important thing is just trying to be open-minded and kind of show autistic people that there is a place for them in the world Brilliant, thank you very much for that Nick So would you like to give out some of your links to like your website and stuff? Yeah I mean people are always willing to people are always, I'll start again people are always people can always go to my website which is nickransom.co.uk which has all my kind of portfolio and of what I've been up to and I actually did a video on autism or Asperger's as I described it then it's right after my diagnosis and that sits on my website and yeah initially I was a bit kind of apprehensive about putting that on my website kind of professionally but the number of people that view it and then see something different about me is a very positive thing so there's that, I'm on Twitter as well Mr. Nick Ransom but yeah those are the two main ones I'd say And on the website you've got a lot of the stuff that you've done and it's very, I'm currently having a little bit of a a click through it's for, oh A little click through, yeah I just had one of your videos just just pop up in my eyes Oh just started playing, yeah I am, it's a very good website I've had sort of like a nitty gritty thing today where it's, I'm trying to subtitle my documentary but the YouTube interface for subtitling is just so slow and so Oh my goodness I've typed it all up and that was easy but now I have to like mess around with the timings and it's just awful 40 minutes long as well Wow, I'll pray for you because I mean no I've actually had to do a lot of this at work actually for the BBC is yeah it can transcribe we have this piece of software where it can transcribe it fairly well and you can get it in a as a transcript I guess and then yeah trying to sort out the timings and make sure it cuts to the right point is just an absolute nightmare and that, you know I think that's, this is, you know a serious point to some degree though in the sense that you know systems should be evolved should have evolved enough now to be able to to make subtitles easy enough and for people who are deaf it's, you know it's a really important thing and I've actually got a friend who's who suffers with yeah hearing loss and you know I look at how many programs there are that either don't have subtitles or badly subtitled and you know it can make a massive difference to somebody so so yeah it's great that you're doing that I've got a few people who want to sort of contribute to it as well so I'm going to be able to get quite a multitude of languages subtitled on that oh nice make it as accessible to everybody as possible might be a bit of a task but we'll see how that goes I think that's pretty much all of the questions that I wanted to ask you actually definitely is all the questions cool if you want to listen to the 420 podcast on any different websites you can always find it on YouTube Apple podcasts and Spotify obviously if you want to check out more of Nick's stuff I'll put all the stuff down in the description that he wants me to put on and if you want to check out some more content that I produce over on YouTube I've got a lot of behind the scenes videos coming out on the YouTube channel Aspergers growth and on the website aspergersinssociety.com and if you want to get in contact with me for any sort of whether you want to share a story or you just want to you want to come on and chat about something that you're very interested in quite a lot then please let me know at Aspergers growth at gmail.com thank you very much Nick for coming on have you enjoyed the experience yeah it's been good I'm a bit knackered now but no it's been good to be part of it and it's great that you're continuing to represent the autistic community so yeah keep at it it's a bit weird isn't it there is always a sort of trend with doing podcasting it's the first 20 minutes so it's a bit sort of anxiety provoking but then you get into it and you chill out a bit more and then you forget that you podcast in and then and then afterwards you've got that sort of mark around an hour and a quarter and then you start to feel a bit drained yeah exactly I think I think you might have to cut out a few bits of where I've just rumbled and tried to find some words but yeah that's probably maybe an hour worth of decent stuff there are did I? you'll have to see but yeah I'm always very appreciative of anyone coming on so it's um thank you for coming that's cool think of fun so thank you everybody for tuning into another episode of the 40 autistic podcast we've got a lot of episodes racking up and I'm looking forward to interviewing some more guests in the future anyways thank you for all the support with the documentary with the youtube channel with all of this and I'll see you in the next episode of the 40 autistic podcast see you later folks yeah that's cool goodbye