 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always once again my longest time friend. It's Tyler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Good man. Good to be here. Good to see everybody. Everybody's well It's gonna be a big big show joining us for the first time. I'm very happy to see him He is in the frame. I apologize, but we took most it's mostly fish But Paul is there as well. What's up Paul? How you doing? Hey, how's it going? You're good, buddy? Don't worry, but I just thought it was funny because your camera was very focused on the fish. There it is now. We're good Alright, Paul is the TO of Iron Realms GT, which we're gonna talk about in just a few moments It's coming up soon. It is in Oklahoma. Yeah, that's in Barlesville, Oklahoma on the 18th. There you go So if you have not yet signed up for this GT and you were anywhere near, Oklahoma You should be doing so. Link is in the description. You can go there find all the information you need The pack Paul has an excellent pack. He is it's we've brought in official TO Wisdom here to help us dissect the FAQ, which is what we're going to be doing today We're gonna be talking about the big FAQ. Was it as big as it should have been? Time will tell. Yep. This is in fact Warhammer Weekly Plus. Yes, you are correct Alright, so but let's get into the news as always right off the rip at the top of the show Yep, so rumor engine It should be an AOS thing. That's an AOS thing in my army. I have a bunch of Yeah, I think I see the the spring and the the wheel there definitely Looks like a free-gilled outrider to me sure enough But but yes, sadly, it's a 40k thing. So who cares? Yep We had what appears to be a new cool boys model revealed via GW social media images they released today or yesterday whenever that was A little bird. I don't have an image for that one But he has a little bird and a little spear and he's two rumor engines and then he goes along Theoretically in the underworlds warband with this guy who is up on the screen, which is the other guy they revealed which is like grit or Something I don't remember what his name is. Yeah, he's very underwhelming. Yes Like I saw when I was like, okay Yep, yep That's a cool boys model it is indeed I appreciate the extremely poor metallics as always With them chunky chunky edge highlights that are visible from space. So that's real nice. No offense to the painter I don't blame them at all. You use bad tools. You get bad results. I don't know what else to tell you So there you go Not it there's not a painter in the world who could make those things look not like crap. So there it is You By the way, if you're playing the Warhammer weekly bingo game Vince Continues to make fun of the GW metallics. You may now mark that square as always That's a great name. I need to make up my own board It's so is that the stab grats brother or something there maybe his much less interesting brother. Yes. Yeah Yes Sean said I seemed a little low comparatively I turned my gain up. We'll see if that helps. Okay, keep going Well, they got any interest in cruel boys? No No I mean, I think that I think I think the big alligators cool some of the big pieces are cool But yeah, I'm playing them myself. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I already have Stuff to mix with my old storm cast to my ancient storm cast one and 2.0 stuff. So, yeah All right, so we had a article go up about White Dwarf 468 Which is not gonna be available in the US until October 29th for various reasons They mentioned What we many of us did not want to see which is that we're gonna be getting battle tone updates through white dwarfs So slaves of darkness is up next and we're gonna have core battalions Presumably some updated allegiance abilities and God knows what else and in the Warhammer plus that we're supposed to be Signing up for is not gonna give us the current white dwarfs. It's just gonna give us like Six month old dwarfs. Is that right? Yeah, I don't know the old ones. Yes You can only access the old white dwarfs in Warhammer plus up to a certain point You eventually like eventually they catch up to the point that you already know the rules and it's not helpful, right? I believe Their eventual plan is to have you be able to subscribe to it through their digitally, but I don't know Either way it doesn't matter. We're all gonna do what we do which is look when I look I'm not trying to say steal things Okay, like that's not what I'm all about like I believe in paying for products and supporting what you love I really do. I really believe in voting with my dollar But this is such an awful way to do to push updates for books like putting them in a magazine a physical magazine Medium that has literally been a joke punchline since the 2000s Okay, so Why not it's like when someone it's like when someone wants me to send them a check it's like I gotta find a checkbook Right Mail it to you. Are you kidding me? Right? There's no digital way to do this. So You know, I mean the answer here is obvious We're just gonna all Google image search you print out the page just call it a day like that's what it is Especially since we don't get it for like a month I will say that some of the slaves allegiance abilities probably need some love Especially given things we're gonna talk about later today. I'll save that But there are some things in the slaves allegiance abilities. They could use some some tender love and care Uh, but yeah, I mean yay more cool, but to core battalions grand strategies and battle tactics And that is the order of how I find them annoying from least to most I'm totally on board with you there that especially the battle tactics is what's Rows me the road worst just yeah, we're just gonna be those freebies that like Oh, if you play corn you get three free battle tactics that are like Kill a unit right sure like or like your battle tactic is like, you know Score a blood tide this turd gain a blood Okay, I'm going to score a blood tide. Yeah, I want to say something real quick here By the way, just to just to put something out positive So omega ohm said, you know, like you can play age of fantasy one page rules. AOS is a big mess So what I'll say is I don't think that's true. AOS is the best it's ever been I really do love the game Just I do not understand some of the choices GW makes that's also not a slam on one page rules Who also makes awesome stuff by the way? I love one page rules as well. They're doing great great great stuff So both can be good. I mean AOS is truly. I've had more fun with this edition than I have in any previous edition I just don't know why they're seeking to ruin such a good thing They had with this this these very poor decisions in a sea of great stuff They make some real bangers of bad decisions. So I will agree that I think it's the best edition the best Even with the issues that we have right now, it's in the best place. It's been since I've started. I mean Yeah As data later we'll show We have some data. We're gonna talk about indeed. We do All right. So yeah, big news. Of course, we got our AOS fact to release Which is the topic tonight. So We not a lot to say about that. Just in case anybody missed it. We did get the monstrous arcanum PDF so that has all of the current playable forge world War scrolls and point values in there, which we'll talk a little bit about that as well. Yes And then on that place in peace corn or rest in peace corn dragon. Yes Yeah And it's last hurrah nash gone Uh, yeah, well, we will talk about it. The important part there is that all of the points for that monstrous arcanum update Have been pushed to war scroll builder by our lord and savior The hero we all need and none of us deserve Tony P Kicking but taken names the FAQ drops friday. He's got the new points in there Uploaded pushed alive by wednesday Take notes people take notes. This is how you do it. Uh, we all need we I want tony p to have bodyguards on him I want a secret service Detachment on him. He is the most Integral member of this community. He cannot be injured or hurt in any way. We can't lose. Yeah I mean, I think the points update is impressive But just all of the interactions of rules and lists I don't know how they make something that logically deals with every Ifton statement It's amazing how he does uh shout out to uh to age sigmar list lab who said warp gnaw meta Yes, I agree warp gnaw is tight at two seven five in the new book. So Uh It's like a thumbs for that. Anyway, so yeah, that's a standout Okay. Well, we're burning through these so events We've got our events calendar. So we added It's over. Yeah, so of course coming up bruce city brawl face hammer Uh, so we've added some events and actually I need to get them in front of me as well We've got a delay with the feed But yeah, so lots of events happening this month and next month Uh, we only had to wumba open last weekend So I wanted to share a little bit on the results for that one I'm just going to shout out one more time tyler for those who joined late iron realms gt September 18th the 19th here in this dewy oklahoma, but I think you said it's in a different place But maybe there's in boroughsville. It's just small towns. Gotcha So at any rate that is pull is the to for the iron realms gt So if you're anywhere near oklahoma, he still got some spots open hit it up link is in the description go We got we got like 120 40k guys. We got to get some more aos guys to catch up Oh my god, are we gonna let 40k guys crush us that poorly that that makes me i'm truly sad now It's folks I expect better out of the aos community. All right Okay, uh now you were saying tyler. I'm sorry and yes, october. I'll flip over to the october list Uh, so I'll leave that up while you're talking about the results to wumba. Go ahead. Okay, cool Yeah, the one and only dave kerr taken out To wumba with his to spoiler slaves of darkness bellicorps and archion Had a corn demon prince in there for good measure So pretty awesome list Just gross it's the closest thing to a pure blue control deck you can have in war hammer, right? It's just disgusting Yeah, if it was interested you had a warshrine in there three by ten rotters Uh, I think he was two dropped 1975 timothy with lumineath zytrec techless Breaking my principal events of you should be punished if you've only got one hero in your list somebody needs to punish you Techless four by ten wardens two by 20 sentinels life swarm one drop 1980 quarry Who did a lot of winning with 20 snake bows last year rockin the host duplicitous kairos Some other casters two by ten pinks fairly standard. We've been seeing cogs and portal those are your top three The other top ten corn reapers of vengeance soul blight veercose idk domhain iliathan lrl seven ethanol route shown up knight haunt emerald host and ko barack mornar were your top ten for that event Nice. So yeah, pretty good What's that still pretty good mix pretty good. I mean, I know there's the there's definitely some strong pieces We'll talk about that. Yes, I call them the dimmy gods And gods Yeah, the I mean all in all good results continue to see a nice A nice mix. It's a question of how long does that last I guess time will tell Hopefully a while Yeah, uh, hopefully this is the new world, but we'll see I think with just the right couple changes. This could be our new normal Where where like You see these incredibly mixed top tens and everybody's swinging for the top 10 I also want to say rob honest wargamer rob started a conversation this week It was all about not just talking about first place, but also, you know talking about Uh, the five o's and the four of the brackets and you know kind of thinking of it in brackets I've always met a fan. I've always said you need to look at the top 10 or you know top five at least top 10 realistically Because the difference between ninth place and second place is often like Almost none. Yeah, who they who they matched up against. Yeah, like pure luck the terrain That scenario how it played into their army their potential opponent army match ups the role of a couple dice Like there's a million things that define but like when you look at the full top 10 that's when you actually get the picture of how healthy it is because You know people will bounce around you can be really a really good player and just happen to have gotten to a bad Matchup with a bad scenario and have a couple bad roles and then boom, you're just you know, you ended up in seventh It's like that's what happened Yeah, definitely Yeah, and on that note, so we've had three Sources in the community in particular who've all we've all been benefiting from in terms of Results from these tournaments over the years rob you mentioned Of course a was short and dan at a was short and then DK HM Folks may not be as familiar with but they're on twitter, you know, they've been compiling these stats I know dan as well as rob, you know, I've been thinking about that was part of the main feedback that dan had gotten On the meta watch article he did where he was sharing some results last year You know that folks really wanted to see more of the breakdown like, you know What rob's been calling these brackets So it's been kind of it's been cool to see that we're getting convergence around Representing this and in the results. So we we've gotten a little bit here Thanks to those guys and we wanted to share with everybody So we've now had Right around 20 events around the world with five rounds of 2000 points ghp 21 3.0 age of sigmar Every faction in the game has achieved at least one result of four plus wins at a five round event Just oh, yeah, let me I'm gonna bring up this little data set here. Okay, so let me I'm gonna put the events way a couple people had some updates. I apologize if anything is wrong on the events list. You may certainly Email your complaints directly at scrubby and wells and aos shorts Who are the two people who put this together? So I have outsourced this task My new co-host is much more active. So I fixed I fixed the two things in the comments I think I got both of them the two adjustments just real quick were red harvest gt in ontario is on october 23rd and 24th And the unicorns here is an element games in the uk. We had a list of those norway, and I believe it's the element games in the uk So there we go Man, that's okay. All right. No issue. No issue. It's all good. All right So here's our is this this is the four plus wins five wins four wins percentage of four plus wins meta percentage This is what you're talking about, right? Yes, yes, so this is a really interesting chart Right because what you see here What you see here That uh, you got a lot of when you look at the four plus wins Right. Everybody shows up with least one Yep, right And uh, now Obviously some of these it's a little tough Uh And you know like you you look at the one Flesh eater courts when they don't have any fouros. They don't have any exactly four wins. They only have 150 And that was done by bill susan, right? He's like an incredibly great player Right, sure. Yeah, but at the same time the fec is also a You know glaringly small part of the meta at only 1.54 By the way, this data set here Is drawn from basically all of the tournament report reports We have so far that we were able to collate that aoy shorts keeps which is basically all of the two-day events Yeah, the two-day to five thousand or five thousand goodness sakes five game two two k gts And then folks if you want to see it, we got a link to a page where all of this is available So yes, there is a link down in the description to you can go look at this data yourself And dig into it, but I mean there are some real obvious standouts here Okay, like my obvious standout is that my bias may was it may be wrong And maybe a little too strong was your bias that the suns are okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Look I have a blind spot for the things I truly love. We all know that Yeah, I think that's just a human thing. Yeah, my feeling is kind of suns are There's a few There's a few some matchups where they just auto win basically if you don't have the dps check Yeah And or if it's a mission where they can just stand and outscore you Or you know cheat on savage games Which I've really enjoyed my last game. Yeah, but now they can cheat like crazy because they can kick it forward One be six points around. Yeah, just yeah, like mad cheating like again, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it Yeah, uh, yeah, so I mean, okay. Look, I've got this this this sheet really made me check my my biases Okay And no, I don't think this includes to umbo because I think this was this was updated with the data pre to umbo um The and you know, look the fact that suns are kicking five percent above their meta percentage with the number of four You know four plus wins or whatever, right? Struggling to get that that five that five. Yeah, they've only had one five Oh, but again, that can't be the definition of what's balanced Yeah, right that cannot be the definition of what's balanced, right? What that says to me is that they're a hard rock scissors paper and they're going to inevitably find A go track like yeah, they're gonna. Yeah, exactly exactly. They're going to inevitably find that the the um You know the rock to their scissors or whatever you like right or the paper to their rock however you want to think of it and You know, it's it's just like I I've long been saying I thought they were fine Because they were they felt so underpowered in 2.0, but clearly here in 3.0. Like I'm sorry. They're just That's overperformance if I've ever seen it, right? Like I don't know what else to say about that yeah Paul any thoughts on this Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. I knew that zinch and suns would be up there I knew daughters of kane would be up high and so blight I mean, I feel like we'll talk about archaon later, but I feel like if you take archaon out of You know zinch and slaves and some of these others it completely changes their I don't know messes it would change it around a little bit You could say the same thing about go track or some of the other really strong pieces, but My deepkin they're below average so now Oh, yeah, apparently they're just fine. No one can give me crap about playing deepkin anymore. They're they're below average Yeah, you're double turtle and go trickless paul. That's that's perfectly friendly. Yeah, it's friendly Extremely friendly It did it did beat four megas basically in two turns So, oh no, I got a first-hand account of my friend brad. He really enjoyed that game. Yeah, I'm sure He did say you're a very nice guy. So you got that you still got that going for you Somebody asked is Are the sons of bammet are the tribes seeing equal play? I think it's probably taker breaker and then almost no stop up would be my read on most of the lists I or most of the these lists that I looked at Um, it's not as bad as like original recipe doc where it was just like hagnar all the way down And then 2% is calibron or something like that or the original obr or whatever, you know Right. It's certainly not that level, but it's it's mostly taker and breaker Yeah so Yeah, this matches generally what I would expect just in terms of like if you think about tiers or what we might Estimate as our tiers of a was right now with these factions IDK is a little lower than I would expect. Yeah, I think legion should be higher But legion legion's kind of a tricky play. I mean, I think it's a skill cap army. Definitely Um, I'm kind of surprised sova net is up in that top third Even though the pipe the pipe player has Has definitely whipped me before but Away pipe or whatever that's called Yeah more song. Yeah. Yeah, I mean here's what I'll say when I look at this I think this is we shouldn't take this still preliminary, but yeah, exactly. That's exactly right, paul I like I think people tend to over read statistics, right like Data literacy wasn't taught in schools when we were in school probably most of you watching this it still really isn't It's an important thing that isn't actually taught in all that maybe like 120 schools in the country right now So, uh, you know, I don't know in other countries be outside the us Maybe data literacy is more regularly taught But this is still a relatively small sample set And so it's very easy for things to outperform to be have a to not reach statistical significance Right, we should absolutely assume that this is at best directionally compelling and not Not absolutely like oh that is the order of broken things Right that is like yeah, you can really over read this give about six more weeks of this type of data And then it will be prescriptive, you know Right, and yeah, there's there's so many changes going on at the same time like we're going to talk about how How does that change everything right and so like You know, it's also a living breathing thing So it's hard to ever get one big set of really true apples to apples clean data So we have to kind of do our best I think what this tells me is that a lot of the things that I thought were pretty strong right now Or pretty strong right now, right like and and they tend to be a pretty Compelling matchup. It does tell me that suns are probably overperforming. That's a big number for what they are They're a huge portion of the meta Anytime I see something creep up to that portion of the meta Right. I'm like That you're trying to look for what the flag is what needs to change right right right And they're about to get and they're just got stronger this last week, right? Yes, exactly Yeah And I'll just say there unlike some of these other things we'll talk about that have you know Maybe taken some hits with the FAQ They only got better So great So, you know, but when you look at the meta percentage or when you look at the Percentage of four plus wins what that tells me is yeah They're just walking into a lot of matchups and winning it and the fact that they have a very That they have a couple hard counters that they're going to tend to meet in game four or five and then take an L Right. Mm-hmm. That doesn't necessarily mean like everything's okay So yeah, definitely Sorry. Yeah, I was pulling up the image. So yeah 13 percent Of four plus wins relative to seven point eight one percent in the meta Which is the highest difference of any faction. Yeah, five little over five percent difference Yeah, I'm pretty sure it looks like it looks like luminous and zinch Are kind of the next that are the biggest differential with daughters up there as well Yeah Yeah Good stuff. Well, thank you again to rob dan dkhm And just everybody's contributing to this and the community. It's incredibly valuable And yeah looking forward to more events getting added in the coming weeks and months Yes The important part is it tells you what do you like like if nothing else The one thing we can say is this tells us the kind of things you're going to likely see and the kind of Things you want to think about with your sort of list, right? And how you do want to think about building your list because these things can also change because the People respond to it at tournaments and stuff like that and it can give us directional indications of what we hope to see And then it also reinforces the hey some of the things that might be pushing stuff a little bit wrong If you've got that sort of sense and yes, that is correct All right, these can you could be like, yeah, there's more evidence of of what you're talking about, right? Yeah And it kind of tells you like if you're trying to go for top top five in a tournament You need to be able to deal with these top five because you'll you'll have to beat a couple of them Yeah around form five. You're likely to see you're likely to meet a couple like something out of that list, right? Yeah, they're gonna be up there too. Yep Right on Cool guys. That's the news. Okay. Awesome. Well then gentlemen, let's uh, let's get into some pick of the week Paul you're the guest. What would you like to share with everybody? I want to throw out there My buddy buckets, uh, Tyler Pearson. He did the legions of the first prince talk on coach We could go Really good talk He and and Kromna are some of the other guys have been really grinding and trying to Tweak every little bit of that list and they've get to change it Luckily they get to change their list about every three weeks whenever they get Skaven removed from their army or They get pinks reworded or whatever else, but it's still pretty good. I think that's a good one to watch Uh, yeah, nice. I like it. I will link that down below Tyler you've got a list today. What's your list of picks? I do Stick with the theme. I was coached. You just cranking out amazing content. It was good doc Show with marcella. She I believe went top 10 at atlantic city open with her daughters And she had some good insights on the army one in particular that I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I hadn't never thought about was using marathies so mirror dancing the blood rack medusa And then using marathi's ability to allow unit to fight or shoot in the hero phase So that you could double tap on a big unit with the blood rack medusa stare attack Once in the you know hero phase light somebody up and then the the shooting phase line them up again. I thought that was nice That's hilarious. I love it. Yeah And yeah, so yeah, that was great discussion face hammer had an end up Show right after the fact got posted So they went through the new fact the god characters We're gonna be talking a little bit about as well tonight and then yeah doing a meta roundup So russ and Byron, they just went through a lot of cool interesting topics sharing their views You know didn't agree with everything, but it's definitely great food for thought I don't know events we talked a little bit about that show if you had any thoughts on that one It was a great discussion between the two of them And I think you see a mix of their excitement some of their frustrations I mean, I think it was just a really frank talk between the two of them on how they feel about The meta and things like that. It was it was a great show. I would highly recommend checking it out. Yeah Yeah, definitely and then finally A relatively new podcast at least to me party at the all points With Dayton bud Tristan and others I've been listening to some of their shows recently They just did an episode where bud came on to talk about his nash con experience They had one on 13 reasons why he'll do well in aos 3 and 13 reasons why you might suck at aos 3 Which I enjoyed So yeah, folks are enough for me to that one. It's definitely worth a listen That's what I got very nice. Did I tell you how jacob barry convinced bud to troll me at the at nash con I didn't really get to talk to bud much. He seems a very nice guy I want to have him on sometime But he So I was in the middle of a game. It was like game three or something. It was a really tough game And I'm like so I'm in the middle of this tough game And bud comes up to me and he like hands me one of their their cards or their stickers or something like something from party at the all points He's like, hey, man, if you ever need help getting a little exposure or something, you know, just just reach out I'm happy to I'm happy to help the small channels or whatever and then he just left He just walked away. I had not talked to the guy at all Okay, that was just out of the blue. He came up and did that and I was like Thanks, because I didn't I was like, okay. Was he serious? And then jacob came up afterward was, you know laughing hilariously Yeah, that's great Uh, so, uh, I would love to have bud on sometime. We gotta we gotta do that. He's awesome. All right, great Uh, in fact, I'd love to have all the party at the all points guys on let me just say that We should just get them all just round them all up. Yeah, totally. There we go. Do a brady bunch style That's exactly right. We'll fill this little skype screen up with people. I'm I love it Uh, my pick of the week is going to be for our good friend mr. Rufesto who was on the show just recently Uh, if you want to see me talk more about the faq and If you want to see us talk about, uh The magic items we would like to see as meph and I went through and created Magic items that we thought would be cool that should be in the universal list And then we did a lightning round of like turn classic d&d magic items into warhammer magic items It was a really fun show Yeah, you made some you made some strong magic items there definitely ones people would be taken This is what i'm saying. They were all fun again again It was all you know, basically like we didn't do a lot of planning for that I'm sure some of them could be balanced, but here's what I'd say there'd be eight real choices in the list Okay, we would like as opposed to now where there is one and then a second one and that's it Yeah, I I cannot I cannot talk about my disappointment with the enhancement section enough out of 28 sections of the book. I've said it before number 26 like 27 is the worst it is it just should be stricken from the book and rewritten top to bottom So Content and Instructionally it is bad. Okay, so check that out. It's a great show. It's a lot of fun And it's just meph and I hanging out and chatting about things we think are fun and making up fun magic items Cool, man. Yeah, I started to watch that one Yeah, it was fun and the fact that we can crank out magic items that are all compelling in a few seconds Uh, I should say something about the quality of the magic items that are in the core book. That's all I'm saying Okay, let's do some hobby time Uh Pull what you've been working on man. What's on your table? What you've been painting? I'm painting. I've got uh I was painting a little bit uh prior to flying monkey. I painted some of my deepkin Uh, add a little bit to my idol on a turtle back. I don't know back behind me there Um, and then I've got uh feck is the other army that I've been uh Building up and just barely started painting but still have a lot of work to do on that. So that'll probably be my next one Nice, what's your what's your 2k list ball? What at a high level? What are you thinking? We're back Uh It's I haven't it keeps changing. I mean it's all gargle 40 years. Nobody on terror guys got it I did I had a ton of I wanted to do a ton of flair list with uh, you know some terror guys the nabrant cool king and Archrige and stuff, but I need to kind of rework it now at the all the new things Yeah, um alpha beast could be pretty scary for that army, but I think it's better in soul by but We'll see Yeah, oven gory has a lot more like just has some stronger tools It seems right now than then The stuff in fec sadly then they all monsters in fec or a lot of monsters in fec. You don't even have to be all monsters Just heavy monster. Let's call it that um Yeah But they still let they still let you stack the and summon on your uh Archery on foot and like yep There's even a list where you can like summon a hundred ghouls turn one and Now they gotta deal with that That's that's one way to do it. It's not a bad option. Let the board My my goal is to play with less models though not set up a hundred ghouls after the setup in turn one That just feels like the worst, but yeah, I like like the thinking Uh, tyler, what about you not painting? Did you get any games in? Of course not, uh By the way, bence, uh, have I thanked you this week for my iron jobs? I don't think I have. Thank you buddy. You don't have to do that, but thank you. I appreciate it. It's nice I'm glad you enjoyed Yeah, I finally got a couple games. If you want to know what tyler's talking about watch this most recent saturday's hobby cheating video As it's all about the journey. I went on painting that army for tyler And this next saturday will be how I painted the mall crushes. So there you go. Okay, go ahead You haven't got me to paint yet. You got me to watch a painting video though. Oh, well here you go So you could see how I did your army It was excellent. Did he put in the right amount of effort for this? How much should I care? Yeah, you made me feel terrible about your back hurting during that process, but that's I'm glad you're feeling much better now Yeah, we're I'm spry. I'm a spry young man. You'll quickly Indeed, yeah No, yeah, I got a couple games then uh played against a lot of dwarden last night, which is fascinating Iron breakers are very resilient. It turns out hammers can hit pretty hard Uh got the w but yeah, it was cool to see what all these various I never really played against the various dwarden units obviously familiar with iron drakes and what they do But yeah, it was cool. I was actually trying out ironsons rolling the second time You know the one that everybody plays and iron jaws sure and yeah the commandability I I get why everybody likes that commandability that allows you to charge in the enemy charge phase. Yeah, it's pretty cool That being said, I I I think I've probably used iron sons Like it is modern incarnation. Yeah, I've probably used iron zones like Maybe three times. I always play just straight iron jaws straight iron jaws. Yeah, definitely That was fascinating with redeploy or mad as hell Uh where you kind of it's a bit of a catch 22 You know, you get too close and the iron jaws could redeploy which then makes their charge easier Yep, they're just gonna move towards you to make their charge easier. Yeah I found that pretty interesting. Yeah, iron sons is really fascinating because it's so it's like this weird in 3.0 It becomes this weird nexus point of tons of unusual movement Right between the mad as hell so every time they take damage They're moving a d6 and then you redeploy anytime someone's landing nine around you somebody's moving a d you know One unit's moving a d6 and then of course, yes the off-turn charge, right? So it's just not to mention the that um Uh, you do still have mighty destroyers, of course as well Of course, yeah, you just have to pay for it But you still have the ability to charge in the hero phase as well, right? So like right there's unusual There's out of sequence movement Charge or move in the hero really really hard to play to plan against because there's so many options of what they can do Yeah, totally and it's harder to pick them apart You know, you can't just like focus down if you're running your units in pairs or close by each other You know if you got like 10 brutes and a cabbage or two cabbages next to each other Well, you're probably going to get charged by the other one if you're charging one You know, so it can can be a little harder to focus them down I found but yeah, anyway just kind of a few insights On that command ability, which hopefully is not going to go away this month with the new book So we'll see fingers crossed. Yeah, that's we all wait in uh, anticep Patient The uh, I I almost don't want that book to come but it will so here we are uh at any rate Um Yeah, my hobby time. Uh, I finished my first unit of rat cast so the real the army is real now I have five predictors painted To celebrate and reward myself. I am painting my lord Imperator or impuretant Who's my little rat boy here? He has different weapons and stuff of course because he is a little rat boy And uh, I have his little dog separate, but yeah, he's coming along. He's got all his armor done And his little skin done and when she's starting to work on the all the non-metallic steel now, so He's he's coming along nicely And then I'll probably do some annihilators next up my little my little Rat annihilators with their giant wacky hammers. So Sweet I used I saved all the little you know the big Fist balls the smasher fists from the storm fiends. I put those on the ends of the sticks. That's there. That's their thunder maces So there you go You still at an average of 12 hours per model. Yeah. Yeah, it's still the same Oh goodness, but that's all right. We'll get there. Look, I look, I've already got a whole unit painted man. I'm like, uh, I'm good I'm like almost there. Hey, he's not spreading it out over 12 weeks. So, you know Sometimes that's what it feels true Yeah, you just keep at it. You just keep look People laid a railroad from end to end in this country and they drove it one spike at a time, right? So that's a It's a lot of railroad spikes. You just keep hammering and eventually Track is laid. So that's where I'm saying No, uh, martin said, where's that blade lord? I'm excited to see how you paint one martin your blade lord is right here It's sitting in this box Did I still haven't opened yet? I will get to it. I apologize. I have some other stuff. I've been working on Uh, I was reading through your instructions though martin. You have a you sent me detailed files So I've got both of those paint from the rantathon, but don't worry martin. I'll get it to you I will paint the one and then send the rest of the box back to you Uh, okay Cool, uh gentlemen, shall we uh, shall we move to our main topic and talk about the big FAQ All right The biggest the biggest FAQ here Uh Level level two of the fact exception. Yes. Here we go level level two level three We're at level two right now. We're at level two. Yes. We're we'll we'll we've got a I'll fall asleep again inside here And they'll I'll go down farther No, um Yes, martin. You are correct. That is what I'm doing. Um I am rushing to get my I like I'm rushing to get done for a tournament in two months But that's a not a lot of time when it takes 12 hours of models. So There you go Uh, let's talk about FAQ now in the future. So what we're going to talk about today is both what was in this FAQ What wasn't in this FAQ and what we want to see in the future Uh for the FAQs All right So we're going to kind of cover all of that and try to give some thoughtful introspection on how we think this stuff Is going to actually play out all right Let's get into it The basics So here are the basics up on the screen. We're just gonna I'm going to I'm going to rattle these off quickly gentlemen And then your feedback on whether any of these you thought were impactful in any big way Okay Yep, here we go Coalition units and chaos god armies have to have the mark of chaos keyword Meaning that actual keyword that says mark of chaos So this is a thing that exists on chaos warriors and chaos knights and stuff like that There was a general cleanup of the invocations and judgments because they forgot to remove the text that would make them disappear They cleaned all that up and just said no only use the new rules everything self-contained now good to go As well as cleaning up that yes, of course summoning these does take count as one of your prayers They corrected hollow heart mages to no two spells and be able to cast one additional spell We were expecting that because they kind of accidentally broke hollow heart in cities. So that was good We restored it back to basically how we all assumed it worked um the ever Evolving story of Marathi's sharp and spear Continues as she's back. She's back to run two yet again This is the second saddest set of hilariously missed FAQs in this whole thing She's now officially indefensible at her current point value. Correct. Yes. Yes. She is now that is the best way to put it I agree I thought heiwo summed it up perfectly in his heiwo in his heiwo Tweet FAQ reactions when he met as soon as you mentioned Marathi outcome the doc supporters. Yes Dragon ogre's baron guard and all obr big guys got elite which was cool I was like I was super happy to see baron guard get added in there. I thought the dragon ogres were a cool one That's nice. It's a nice ad um, so good stuff And all the obr big guys was was good to have them be elite Obr got a couple of nice little pieces in here that being one of them Um, the engine of the gods confirmed as a priest Aduh, we all knew that but that's okay. Now we officially have keyword Um long shanks no longer has a four inch limit Thank the lord's above. Oh my goodness. Like I know I was talking about You mean I can't put like a flag on every character to make them over four inches tall anymore Stop being stado. Exactly. No, I know I was talking about suns probably needing some kind of adjustment I stand behind that but seriously that rule was so annoying because of that four inch rule Like it was the worst that way. This is not what is going to keep or make suns powerful It was just a super annoying caveat that didn't need to exist Um, so thank you for finally changing that super annoying thing Uh battle plan the vice confirmed the single objective is a new objective Hence no one controls when it's you know removed and then reset up which is again how we all played it and assumed it worked Yeah And if a unit can issue or receive a command without a cp being spent it still counts as using that command ability So this is my basics page number one Anything on my first basics page here gentlemen, you think will be especially impactful Or that was surprising the If a unit can issue receive, I mean that's particularly relevant to handgunners and sisters of the watch So sorry rocko and others But that that got clarified, you know with uh with the whole, you know, how are we defining use So, yeah, that was good. I kind of thought it was the other way But I'm glad for the clarification because especially with the battalion stuff where it almost sounded like they were saying Oh, you get a free I was like, I want to be able to reroll charges with two units if I need to or whatever, you know but um Well, I would have made those other three battalions actually somewhat interesting Right, uh, but no now in fact there are only three battalions in the main book. So that's good We can all basically ignore the rest It's it's now just uh The the the one either you can be unified or you can take three extra heroes and get either at artifact Or a command point or you can take uh, some heroes and other stuff as well Like some troops and you get an artifact and a command point. Yay That warlord battler regiment and command entourage by the way are the three I'm talking about those are your three that are relevant the other three basically became like Just not in the discussion anymore with that clarification so I think the uh indication and judgment one is good like They're their spells their prayers They I think that was pretty Straightforward that it should it's a nerf was maybe but I think that's the way it probably should be Yeah, well, it's uh, yeah, I'm sure corn players and others are not excited about this But yeah, definitely good to get the clarity So, uh, yeah, everything here is pretty straightforward. Yeah the one that uh My team beat down friends had had me convinced for a very short period of time was that marker chaos was made arc aon only playable and and uh and slaves but Eventually, uh, charles charles showed me the light where there he's still playable like always and everybody else Yeah, that would have been a major if you if you got nerfed down to only be in slaves. That would be Gamechaining I was like, why is no one talking about it if that's what it is? Yeah So what all uh, what are some of the other stuff that fits kind of in that marker chaos? I'm not a much of a chaos player that gets infected affected by that. Yeah, the answer is shockingly little is the answer Okay, like shockingly little is actually hedged out of of being included here because the two that immediately came to mind okay When they when they mentioned this was oh I can't take a slaughter brute or uh, or a butylith vortex beast Even though they have the zinch key word and corn key or try corn and zinch key word respectively um But then they went ahead and added mark of chaos to those two Uh as part of the FAQ. So I was like, well, okay. There we go. I guess then we're fine So, I mean, you know Most anything you would think of taking Like war shrines and like I said knights and sorcerer lords and you know cast lords on manticores and Slaves of darkness demon princes and soul grinders and baron guard and they impacted what's that our marauders impacted Oh marauders have that the key word. Yes. They absolutely do. So I mean like I there's I think like one of the forge world demon princes doesn't have it. I guess um Oh mr. Chase said what about beast of chaos? No, this is only for the chaos god So only only sorry this is out of the the I should have been more specific in my language The beast coalition units in the god armies are unaffected. This is only for your slaves to darkness two and four Uh coalition units in your god marked armies. So So yes beast our beast what can still be taken as one and four as normal. So Yep Yeah, so I mean it's it's basically everything Paul is the answer like everything you pretty much want to take I think the gaunt summoner was the other one one of the gaunt summoners He doesn't have it like the gaunt summoner on foot or whichever one is the one in slaves of darkness. I don't remember Or on disc. There you go. Oh, there you go. Yes TC rathy and frosty ill said yes on disc There you go And I think as much as we'll find as we get later in this list of some stuff that we aren't happy with I am glad for some of the bookkeeping things just to clean it up and clear it up But yeah, that's what a lot of this is is just stuff. We already knew based mostly Just to clarify it. Yeah Yep, all this like I said, this is just the basics. These were just expected clarifications. I don't think any of these are too controversial Let's do the basics part two Uh, here we go ready Mount traits can't be duplicated unique spells and prayers can't be given to unique characters Flaming weapon can be given to a mount so you can light your bird's beak on fire The maximum unit size is whatever that max units maximum size could be based on its role i.e. Whether it's battle line or not Uh, which does mean you can grow them over their starting size. You just can't grow them over their theoretical maximum So that's interesting I don't like, you know, so if you take Trying to think of one that like grows a lot, but isn't doesn't you wouldn't you take it in tens? I don't know an example But for example if something could go to 30 because it was battle line you started in 10 You could grow it up to to 30. I guess probably regular like if you had like maybe a phoenix card And then you emerald life swarmed it you could go above the tin that only replaces slain, right? So we can't that can't like it has to be something that actually adds to the unit Okay, um, but whatever it doesn't matter Uh Like it can be done now if there's something i'm not thinking of i'm sure someone will tell me in the in the chat What if i'm missing one? uh Wildwood and impassable as keywords Aren't removed if the scenery or functions aren't removed if the scenery is destroyed I guess you just can't knock down those woods Um, so that's still interesting. I guess it's just impassable. It's been frustrating before already to me Yeah, like this rubble you can walk over this rubble is still impassable Why reasons cool Or this this rubble still gives buffs to the sylvaneth guy next to it Because even though you've destroyed it it's still got the keyword wildwood. So it still Gives a you know minus one to hit plus one to save or whatever all the other stuff I see no issues. By the way, people who said zombies in the chat I didn't pick zombies intentionally because zombies will see in the epic view. They have their own way To break it. So that's why I didn't pick zombies, but I hear you I think skelly's is the answer because skelly's can add to their own number through. Oh, yeah They can regen on their own. So I think I think it is skeletons Uh, oh, there you go. That's right the zine trolls that can add zangor to a unit. That would be another exception Oh, yes, there are some weird zines ways to pop zangors into existence Okay, um Objectives on the border of two territories are not wholly within either they basically clarified an earlier Sort of answer that they're not Because before they had said they are in both territories So like the logical corollary to that was hence. They're not wholly within either Right. Yeah. Yeah, they told us that they They were within but they didn't say wholly within so that's just a clarification that we needed just to I think everyone played it that way that I played against but right Yeah, yep, um every monster in a monster unit can use monstrous rampage. So Okay Other than the other than the man crushers. What's other multiple monster units that Is it like Maybe baron guard. Yeah There's a Exactly. Yeah, minimal the whole unit become it or just the one model. Yeah, and And then that's also impacts like how do you do scoring? On objectives like if you got six baron guard and metamorphosis is on them Are we now saying that that's counting as 30? I say you have to cast it on a model, but I'd have to read the Word because yeah, because it says it just says hero. It doesn't say like Hero model or hero unit just hero We continue even after FAQ number two as we'll mention later to not know how baron guard work in a host of situations so Good stuff I love it And then zombies can exceed their max unit size. They now have a built-in rule that says they can Eat those delicious delicious brains and go above their unit size. So your 60 zombies is just a starting point folks This begins the challenge. How big can you grow that unit of zombies? I want to see somebody get well over there. Can you I want to see zombies versus cave in versus clan rats. I think that they could like get 300 on the board by Yes Munch in those zombie rats. There you go. Can you hit 100 zombies? I love it. So yeah, again anything in here you think is going to be super impactful Mount traits was really needed mostly for metal cruncher would put sure Even on the moth or FEC is a pretty big Proper not being able to have multiples, but yeah people that were putting the same one on the same model twice I don't know what they were thinking. I mean, I think they're kind of stretching the their imagination there, but yeah Oh, by the way, ramiam says I got my zombies above 100 yesterday. I played against gloom spite stabbas Yep, that's a tree matchup right there Fantastic unique spells given to unique characters that was really needed like Me and my friends talked about that a hundred times. I was tired of talking about it to be honest Yeah, it was the biggest open clarification There was a lot of people who were just sure that it was going to come down the other way And we're really excited to flaming weapon archion or marathi or whatever Yeah, that's definitely what they needed Flaming weapon on mount traits, uh Then everyone's like flipping through their book trying to figure out which Which mount has 10 attacks? You know Who has a bunch of like 3d6 claw attacks or beak attacks. I thought that was kind of funny because I mean, it's all fantasy, but it seems a little less Realistic, I guess like it's like turn your sword on fire But to turn your like claw or mouth on fire a little bit like you could hurt yourself. Oh, wow. So yeah Uh, yeah, you could arcane tome a cabbage Sure. Yeah, make them all weapons it up. Yeah. Oh, all right. Thank you paul So he can he can be uh, like you're You're base damage on a maw crushes stompy stomp, right on the maw crush itself He's base damage too, right goes to three with meanan goes to four with Island fury with a yep with a war chance of sticks Right and then can go to five with flaming weapons. So now we're cooking with gas Oh Yes, this has been a good show gentlemen. That's what i'm talking about. I think Look on that initial list iron jaws was not doing well. So we're fine. It's it's good. They got a buff It's a little bit strange because it seems like everywhere else like they restrict it to be on the hero whenever it's something in the similar category Whatever either way Uh, the yeah, I mean the other one that a lot of people have talked about is just putting it on the the phoenix is Bites right because they're base two damage bites. Both of the pheni are incredible incredible You know monster heroes right now that are just wildly under pointed for what they can accomplish So then actually being able to turn their damage their bites into three damage bites because they get six attacks, you know It's good. It's good. Yep Buckets that's a great shout. Yeah, blade bringer exalted chariot flaming weapons. Yeah, that's what he's wanting to bring next Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean Like blaming weapon on blade bringer was already what I was using in slanesh And it was already great because yes, you have a lot of attacks. So It's like nine ten weapon attacks depending and uh, yeah, it's good. It's good turning those into two damage attacks makes a big difference Uh, all right, cool. Yeah, so fun stuff here um Yeah, the uh the unit size one. I still think they should have worded a little bit better I understand what they're saying like if it's a battle line then it could be multiple But the last sentence of that was something like It will vary from unit to unit. It's like, oh, that's very helpful So that when people are pointing at the book, they says it varies. So I want mine to be You know Well, and the problem there is We'll touch on this when we get to what we didn't see is we still don't have the answer to schrodinger's battle line Right. So we actually don't know Because they say oh, it just your maximum unit size is whatever your status is or whether your battle line or not The problem is we still don't know if something is always Battle line, right? Is the summoned unit battle line is a you know, we know that we don't know coalition units That's the right there. They're they don't count as battle line or they don't count towards your battle line, but did they inherit The concept of battle line, even though they're not counting toward the number Get out of here with this. I hate it, but uh, nonetheless, we didn't get the answer even though I know we asked it. So Maybe just for everybody's Reference bins. I've got the text right in front of me. I don't think it was on the slide Coalition units do not count towards the number of battle line units in your army However, they do count towards the maximum number of leader behemoth and artillery units in your army Coalition units cannot be generals in addition. Coalition units are ignored when determining if the units in your army are from a single faction So, yeah, Schrodinger's is still on the table Yep, because the question there becomes they don't count towards your number of battle line. Fine fair I get it. I have to have three battle line that unit of gas warriors does not Does not count towards my three battle line But they still say battle line as a role. So the question is is their max size 20 or their max size 30 Yep Level three fact exception. Let's do it We get the fact to the fact to the fact. That's right. Okay Uh, awesome Let's move on to army specific Okay, so this one should be relatively quick because these are all boring and I only added them because tyler told me to Uh All right, army specific little changes across some sub factions Not that these aren't impactful, but whatever Nurgle mean if it wanderers one last gift and now triggers on a one So there's no conflict with the withers conflict with wither stab. It used to trigger on sixes uh to hit So now it's on one. I think it's a decent buff. It's a different Yeah, it's nice It is a it's nice that they removed that potential nonbo. That is good so I always love when they go in and target nonbows like this and fix them and I'm like What about I I need the spongebob meme of him like ripping away the little paper and pointing out the window and everything I'm like, what about all of these nonbows? He like you like some this happens because somebody In the general space play tester designer, whatever Plays this army and was annoyed by this nonbow And so raised it as an issue That's how stuff like this gets fixed nobody and asked this question for the FAQ. This wasn't a question Right Nobody's sending a question to a osgw plc blah blah blah blah whatever You know these both happen on sixes. I'd like it to not happen What would the question there be nice if it they didn't, you know Don't underestimate our community man I'm saying this kind of stuff happens because somebody plays this thing And wants it to work differently Okay, and what that tells me is we need an advocate within that circle Who plays every army like we need an advocate for every army who can highlight The sort of challenges not all I'll volunteer. I'll volunteer with each army Like that's what we should be searching for because actually we need that for the FAQs So that whenever they say this is what we're about to send out we could say You didn't think of this interaction with that Yeah, you know change it before it goes out. I don't know. Yeah There's there's it's hard. It's there's so many rules in the game, but it's still Yeah, right so anyways, that's my point with things like this These did not come from questions. These are straight fixes somebody felt like Okay, this is somebody's pet thing they play and they requested it be fixed period speaking of the sixes and stuff have you guys dug into the Multiple effects happening on a six uh making you re-roll sixes and making you I mean There's some weird combinations of well at least simultaneous Is that you go? Is it your turn? So you get to do it first? It's I don't know that monkey before monkey. We were trying to talk through some of them there So I have a slide I shared back in one of the first rules things we did on 3.0 That I believe you have to that there's actually not many things that conflict There's some but there's not many because you have to look it does it trigger on the role The unmodified role or the modified role. There are three different checks Along there is my argument. There is a sequencing that happens. You have three different states the dice are in My roll the dice I have an unmodified role And then I have a modified role and you can exist in any three of those states And so the question is what is the trigger for the thing on a roll of on an unmodified role of Etc, right? All right. We can add that to the list of clarifies. Maybe sure it it it absolutely should be paul Yes, I agree like to me. I think that's it's clear, but that is 100 complicated to explain and I hate it So there you go Uh Sylvaneth winterleaf command ability to trigger mortals on sixes to hit for one unit in shooting So enjoy that Sylvaneth players. That's what you've been looking for Well, you've got all those masked archers Of course Right Absolutely So this is super valuable. So strange. Yes. Can Sylvaneth Oh wouldn't work with They don't have that battalion with the Sylvaneth plus deepkin battalion they used to have where you could Maybe throw some reavers in there Stack that out there Nope, it's no what this means is that if you shoot with a unit of six kernoff bows Yeah, you get one bonus mortal So your door price maybe maybe this is future proofing for a new unit on the way There you go. There you go. We're gonna get that. We're gonna get the spite revenue Put it on drychus shot Yes, yes, yeah, she gets 20 shots, right? It's 20. Hey three bonus mortal wounds. That's not bad Problem paul is you're still gonna take her in narrow route because it re-roll ones and it's much better in general right now in 3.0 so But I will also say this is a command ability that triggers in the shooting phase So it's it's fighting with all out attack Right, yeah, right, which you generally will always do on kernoff bows. So, yeah You're the plus one to hit is actually going to pay off more in general than the than the potential for like two mortal wounds. So Anyway, uh Night haunt the cruel gas cruciator now increases saves versus wounds and mortal wounds to a five up pulley within 12 That's a good change. Yeah. Yeah, I was happy about this that new dude has a real role now I'm I'm back in this dude now. I was kind of a buyer of him before I'm definitely a player of him now That's that's sweet as They still need more love Yeah, but it's something. Yeah, absolutely like that deathless on a five up. That is scary for a unit of like, um uh chain guests uh in in uh Our chain rasps sorry that gas rasps the names are too close for a unit of chain rasps in freaking rick nor's Uh, you know sort of sub faction there precision. Yeah. Yeah where you've got 40 of those dudes and they're actually You know fairly hitty and now they're on five up five up Basically being involved, you know five up does ethereal five up ward. It's pretty strong Yeah, my uh, my buddy's uh, billy and eggs both play some night on and we were trying to think through How could we give them something like re-roll ones to save or something instead of because they don't get all out defense They don't get mystic shield. They don't like there's like they don't get finest, you know The best they ever doesn't really work on them either. So yeah, how do you kind of give them something so that they're those aren't all just wasted on Yeah, how come they weren't one of the first ones lined up with a with a white dwarf update They felt like they feel like they're they need it. I feel like we're not prioritizing these in the correct order Like sons and slaves were fine. We were fine. Okay How were the first two not like night hot and beasts of chaos? I will accept these cast if that's the october chaos book or I guess maybe now It's the november chaos book. Who knows because they originally said october in the same article. They said august so Who knows on that but if it's the the 2021 chaos book if it's beasts cool, but how are those not the two? We're like, hey, we're gonna give you some sweet stuff here when Uh slaves to darkness slaughter brute and vortex beast given mark of chaos. So the only two were they Great. So now they can still be taken in those armies, which is fine. By the way, no one ever takes them I think they're both fun. I I actually have Like I have two slaughter brutes and two vortex beasts all painted because I love big stupid monsters So Yay And then as I said the forge rolled monsters have been updated the rogue idol was added to cruel boys And I have a a point here where I say soul feaster Is this the right choice over the normal keeper at 385 points? The normal keeper secrets is 420 points and comes with the command ability that is on the edge of useless now right now Uh, the soul feaster is 35 points cheaper has the exact same attack profile Uh, and Also can just feed depravity if she happens to be near a hero Um, she can like just get you an extra three depravity Which is cool D3 depravity. I'm sorry three. Yeah Still has the dark temptations Still has the whole causes mortal wounds on the wound of six like The Command ability on the current keeper. That's the one for double activation, but it cannot be on the keeper itself Correct And that's the on it. Yeah one unit holy within 12 and it's a command phase combat a bit our command ability, right? So it's competing with all out attack and everything else you would use in that in the I was listening to evan who was one of the two four ones on a show with coach and he was talking a lot about how The main reason as far as I can tell the main reason the keeper was in his list Which was a very hero hammer, you know, old school So the national list with sigvalds and gludos at the top Was it to double activate gludos or sigvald with that keeper? Like that seemed to be one of the main reasons he was using it And was getting really good value out of it. So if if that's I don't know I'm not sure that would add up if there are at least some ways to get some good value out of that command ability For a little bit more points wise. Yeah, my answer is I think I'd rather have the 35 points And the potentiality three extra depravity is is is my honest answer Okay, um Yeah, I don't know like I just think that that uh, I I just that command ability Yes, sometimes it can be worth it, but I can also summon a keeper Like I can summon a normal keeper in Right. Yeah, and so like in the list building phase if I was like I'm talking list building here, right? Because that's the only time you care about points. They both summon for 12 You're gonna summon a normal keeper because why wouldn't you right? But if we're in list building, I mean like points in slenesh are so over-costed You you got to grab for every point you can And 35 points is 35 points So if I can summon a keeper in two or something like that, which is not that outrageous I don't know you can easily set up your keeper behind the hero So she can still double activate the hero on the round she summoned in Right. Mm-hmm You kind of just picture behind the person you need to double activate So anyways Oh, any of these stand out to you and the monster's okay. I don't if you had a chance to look at them in the new point values Yeah, Paul any any any monsters you think aren't crap Yeah, most of them are way over costly attention to Uh Is more in goal because uh, my buddy's been running a single or double mourn goal I think it's so playable. I think it went up to from 285 to 300 or something like that So I think that's still and then uh, he lost one of his brackets I believe too, which It's interesting that they're still You know change and stuff like that That is a minor point. I want to bring up. Hold on. This is worth talking about If you look at the forage world monsters a lot of them have different bracketing Okay, yeah, so the other thing with the soul beaster by the way Is the regular keeper brackets from five damage on her claws to four damage on her claws and from four Sort of tax to three sort of tax at four wounds basically it's she has a zero to three bracket and a four to six bracket Okay, and at four to six her claw damage and her number of sort of tax drop by one claw damage drops by one The soul beaster her first bracket is zero to six wounds Yeah, so she can take twice the damage And still be punching at maximum power And like, you know, they they keepers can heal themselves pretty effectively between the synaestrus hand and the two heal spells right so like Just saying Yeah, the other The other one that we've been talking about is the the corn dragon which got moved up to 1250 and now is Not really playable in any tournaments unfortunately I would rather them have nerfed it its rules and kept it under a thousand so that people that have paid Five hundred dollars for it or whatever can actually play it so technically Uh Technically you can play it in the current battle pack even though it's more than a thousand points because of the uh the Battle pack for this Core rules kind of thing correct the battle pack in the only the Only the contest of generals battle pack, which is in the core rules has the half points exception The battle pack for the ger for the ghp, whatever it's actually called like Come have a fun time in ger or whatever it's called Right, uh, it does not have that half points exclusion clause So there you go Uh, oh, don't worry nicolas. We're gonna get there. That's not nicolas said. We're missing the thing on the feculate normal Don't worry nicolas. We're gonna get there Yeah, we didn't miss it. We're in the army specific changes yet That is not army specific because there are multiple armies. They're touched by that bad wording Tyler Pearson says the soul piece or have an FAQ that is added to the heat knight's book Yes, it does in there They officially added it into the heat knights all those said they said count it as there's a big chart Where it says it is now part of this book and they list the book. So yes it does Uh And so yes all of these new monsters somebody said the old warp gnaw charted on two urns before now It's four all of the monsters arcana monsters double their base their bottom chart area I think or a lot of them did Which is great Like monsters bracketed way too easy a little bit of chip damage and suddenly they bracket The wardrobe monsters don't Uh, so i'm just saying That could be interesting Most of these I think are pretty skippable But as people have pointed out the ones that are interesting, I think I think the soul feasts are super interesting I think the roguidus is still interesting. I think the forge rolled guo the great great the greater greater unclean one The greatest great the greatest unclean one. I don't know and the warp gnaw vermin lord. Those are my hot picks Yeah, I don't know what on earth was going on with that point value for the greater demon of corn 580 points for that thing is insanity The greater demon of nargole 430 is at least within the realm of reason And then yeah crazy horse pouring out for that dread story and it wasn't exactly doing anything wrong Sitting over there Not, you know, a whole lot, you know 545 and it lost arguably its most intriguing element, which was bravery bombing I think now it's like a minus one of braver or something But uh, yeah, I really got neutered I mean you could barely deploy the damn thing in these 11 inch deployments. So right. Yeah, we had one at monkey that was Charles said he was always trying to He had to levitate him almost to really get him around the board. Yeah I agree Ben's on the rogue idol Yeah, still pretty intriguing. Yeah, you know, he's got game and the fact that he's now part of cruel boys I mean we have to wait to see what the whole cruel boys force looks like but that could be could be very interesting in there yeah So he's he's got he's got some potential play. There's a few monsters in there That still have some that are still that are still keeping it interesting I mean, I've got a soul feast or I have like well I have one of my keepers is actually a soul feast or model the old virtual keeper secrets But I'll tell but uh, look Any of my keepers can suddenly be a soul feast or if I say so. So let me just say that right now That's what I'm going for All right, so that's the army specific stuff. We spent way too long on it, but there we go All right Uh Next next song The wrong calls Okay, let's talk about decisions that were made in this FAQ that were wrong Participants on this may or may not agree with what this slide is classified as wrong That's why we can have that discussion mm-hmm But in my book every one of these is wrong and should be undone I will defend this all Let's move through them in order. This one. We'll have discussion after each one. Okay. Okay battle plan power struggle You do not have to hold the point consistently Just over two turns consecutively in other words I can have the point in my turn and you can take it Then I can take it back and I still didn't get the points meaning You didn't really hold it the whole time meaning I didn't hold the whole time and the interesting way this would have modified list building is gone because now We're still just trading objectives And now we're still the same armies that are built because at most every battle plan Wants to trade objectives. That's the way the game works now Right like you almost like the sort of modal outcome of this game is I hold two securely you hold two securely We trade one back and forth or swap on one back and forth or something like that or in a three when it's I hold one You hold one we trade one back and forth like that's kind of the way the game plays now Right, that's why you tend to see these swings back and forth in the first three turns And so it becomes this game of like who can trade smartly. That's just the game And what would have been interesting with power struggle is if it said hold on a minute Actually, we're going to do this one a little different because in this one you're incentivized to be an anvil To have a unit that can sit there and sit on a point and take a punishment and hold it right Yeah, that would have actually made for a different play style in a battle plan But instead nope, we just get a still trade and it doesn't matter All this does is say you score slightly different points because it's delayed Yeah thematically it's it's worse As far as actually playing the game You just need to know which way it goes. I mean we had discussions about at the beginning of which way it should be ruled I like it better the other way, but this isn't one that's like A terrible decision to me. It's just a Not the right way to go Oh, yeah, so let me be clear on this not all of these are like end of the world horrible Oh my god. I want to stop playing warhammer anything. I just think they're wrong Like this was a wrong call. You could have done something interesting instead. You did nothing So like we didn't think it through is ultimately my argument with both of these battle plan ones They're fine. The game's still playable. It's not the end of the world It's just they had a more interesting option that would have added more tactical gameplay And instead they chose the option that didn't do that That's it I wonder what do you guys think games might tend to look like if it had been ruled the other way Would we have a lot more games that would come down to battle tactics, for example I would I would tend to think that the point differential might be smaller meaning that it's going to be harder to accumulate objective scoring If you're having to hold for Two turns consistently as opposed to consecutively I don't know any any thoughts on no, I agree I think it would up the importance of things like being able to properly plan out your battle tactics It would also say like can you push and hold it would give different kinds of forces an interesting play there, right? Like if you can bunker and hold it's actually like uh, so sort of Alpha bunker type strategies aren't as strong in this current edition because a lot of armies want to dps Check you and a lot of army and a lot of battle tactics want you to do Fairly heavy damage to complete them Right, this would have been an interesting battle plan that could have given points back to sort of alpha bunker e-type armies, right? Yeah, I think it could have if if you knew it was in the pack It might change you to where you're having more of an anvil One or two solid anvils in your list if you were instead of taking a 10 man, you might take a 20 man or something of an anvil unit Yeah, that's interesting because paul. We've had a lot of debate about power numbers and have course that it Is incentivizing battle line And you know, I've been saying that Not too keen on all of these lists that are just running minimum battle line And I've been just had some pushback on that, you know, where he's been making the point of well like what else am I going to do? I'm not going to make my list worse Ben's feel free to if I'm interpreting you incorrectly You know like your your tempest list where you had three by five outriders. I believe is that right? Yeah, and you know a lot of these lists that I'm seeing like my dock list I had three by ten which elves and ten snake bows but or three by five true evidence is very common right now with sylvanas That's not much battle line. That's not going to do very well seemingly On power numbers. You're going to play differently to keep those battle line alive But yes, maybe the long way of saying maybe this one would have been a way to get more impact on the battle line Without needing power numbers in every pack. Yeah, sure sure because you could have larger more tangy Units right you mentioned like your iron breakers Yeah, right something like a group of 30 iron breakers can't sit there and hold an objective for two rounds Like that's a thing they're capable of doing right? That's a pretty hard unit, frankly. Yeah Um, yeah, so anyways sad, but here we are that's how it works. So okay Uh savage gains. This is the one that truly offends me Okay, this is like the first one with power struggle. I'm like fine. That's the worst way But whatever savage gains truly offends me, okay Because it says to me nobody thought this through So let me talk what savage gains is savage gains has now been ruled that you get two points for each One of the center two objectives you control This is bad and wrong for multiple reasons. Here are the reasons. I will list them now okay Games are a 3.0 remain interesting Deeper into the game because points in most of the good scenarios remain quite tightly controlled and capped As we have said on the show multiple times you tend to score four to six points in Rattle rounds one two and three almost completely consistently based on just like because there's usually a tactic you can achieve There's usually like maybe you get a bonus might be killing a monster or we know whatever whatever Maybe you complete something with a monster. It's usually four to six points That's the pretty standard scoring. So when you look at the scores, you feel like you're still in it, right? Savage gains when it was any of the two that meant without taking their point it still capped at five Off of the objectives, right because you're not going to take their point like first round or probably second round Right, they're gonna they're gonna clump up on their point It's just very unlikely that you're managed to steal their point off them in round one or two So they'll so you tended to get five your opponent would tend to get five because you take one in the middle They take one in the middle and then you'd have your five and so it became this kind of this Rotational game right where you're kind of moving and fighting and can you can you sort of extend down far enough where you can? Threaten theirs while still protecting yours and holding the one in the middle and so on and so forth, right me and Really created some really interesting counterplay now. Nope throw all that out the window forget about it Your only strategy here is you run out you take the two in the middle Immediately you go to five points you protect them so that they can't get them and you run up the score Like that's now the right way to play this period Yeah, I definitely liked the the the way we had had it before better Um because it did make it interesting to where okay, I've got my side You've got your side and you're still trying to push to steal that middle one But you're also trying to kind of rotate around to try to get them to their back objective um, and then From my to you had I want The battle I really would love for everything to be have the same number of maximum battle points like victory points Like if everything was I think 40k like 100 victory points is what you score if you have perfect Perfect game or whatever if there was because I want those battle points to matter and those to be your type Breakers, but whenever one You know power in numbers Theoretically you can score like 80 points because you can like burn six objectives for eight each Plus your normal stuff And when this one whenever you have that now they're worth two each It jacks that up to where it's not in the range of like the the ones I put in my pack I really would like them to be similar or pretty close so that because like one of the reasons why I was able to Basically submarine at monkey is I lost my first game big But then my next three games I won huge and those are the ones where you could score the most secondaries And that put me back into the top bracket to where I had a chance to You know to get you know to do well at the end, which is good for me, but it's kind of Stinky it sucks for the somebody that's playing playing someone that's you know in the same Win-loss bracket of them that you know, they're they're you know a three-two type army playing each other And neither one of them score very big because it's a it's a brawl, you know What turns out to be a big win So Paul real quickly on that point Uh, maybe we could talk off air about this as well and then Sunday We talked about having a show on tournaments and scoring systems So a couple of things going to mind rod has been emphasizing a type of scoring system The differential the points of differential. Yes, exactly and Jeff Nauman with siege royal slash now gateway open Has been doing that and I thought it worked tremendously well This year it kept the field a little tighter Yeah, where you have to get over a certain number Of victory points in a game to hit a threshold for the major victory And it's it's just tougher. Oh, yeah. So there's two. Yeah, there's two different things to that one is to get I think and this is the way some of the world I don't know tts world stuff was or etc But where you have to win a game by like let's say six victory points for this Battle plan for to count as a major if you only win by one to five It's it's a minor win or something. Yeah, that's I think one piece of the pie and then the other one I think is the The points differential between you and your opponent If it was only one then it scores as the 11 verse nine score I think is that's one of the way Rob is right And you can still clown with that as a major victory But then you use that points differential as the actual ranking, right? So there's two different ways you can implement it But yes the the differential secondary sort of it could be just your secondary ranking and sorting mechanism Or it could also be like your determinative factor. So I kind of like You know, I mean they both kind of do the same thing encourage you to play to the end To not say oh turn two. I've lost this game. I'm going to get zero out of 20 You know, no one likes the 20 zero type thing so Give something to play for all I may lose this game But I'm going to kill your general and get the two battle tactics. I'm going to I'm going to stop you from getting your grand strategy You know, that's one thing that makes the game fun for me whenever I'm in a losing situation Well, what what's a what's a small victory I can get and I think Giving points for it is So yeah, I'm like this next one this iron realms that I'm running I'm using I used I picked five that have a similar scoring for the maximum victory points You can get in the mission and then it's that plus I think like you get 30 for a major 20 for a minor Like 10 even for like a loss and then zero for like a forfeit or whatever. So it's like you still There you do get extra points for the major but Every victory point can matter when it comes down to tiebreakers and best in faction and that kind of stuff. Okay, gotcha The other thing we should mention here was savage gains. By the way, tyler You already mentioned earlier is changing it to this also makes suns even more powerful on this And this is like this is one of our good Scenarios that I would like to see in every pack Like I think it's a legit good scenario or it was, you know, we don't we honestly don't have a lot of Battle plans in this current pack that I think are like really tournament ready And fully tournament baked. This was one of them and now it's like, oh good Now suns just gets like an auto win in one of the five scenarios They kick off the objective. You can't score four It's worth two for them whenever they stand on it. Now they're getting six They don't even have to go to your side and they're scoring six a turn and Yep I don't yeah, I don't know like open to the possibility that well certainly on suns I can see that point and they were already incredibly strong. So But to me, you know, open to the possibility that this could go south However, we've been playing a mission called border war for forever And that's exactly how border war works is what we have now And I had always thought border war was one of the quintessential good aos missions Yeah, you could have games where the score can get a little out of whack But like if I'm going first like my opponent lets me go first. Okay, cool I'm going to get five points Two in the middle and my objective. I'll get my battle tactic. I'll get seven points. That's a lot However, I'm going first. So he has the potential to Double me off the objectives or at least get me off one of those objectives I you know, like Like I totally get where you're going, but let me just chart out a really reasonable scenario here. Okay Okay, you go first You take we're not going to count suns because the suns I think it's just become stupid on this with this ruling So whatever That's fine. Let's just get rid of them You go first You authoritatively take the two points in the middle and hold yours Okay, you score seven They go they fail to kick you off your points off either one of the two you have Okay, but that's the thing that's going to happen, right because It sure sometimes they'll push you off the point I don't think that's the majority of situations where that will happen. It will happen I think it really depends on the armies being played, but but it's a possibility, right? You're after a minute. It's a possibility. We can argue over the percentage. It happens, but it's going to happen Yeah Yep, okay Or you can you can zone you can zone out both points and then on the way to like zone out the six And yeah, I poop a bunch of battle shock immune pinks out there or whatever. I don't know like whatever happens Okay, and and you just don't have the dps check to get me off right, sure Except uh, you're a sun's list with the new battalion. So you're a one or two drop So You get to go first if you want anyway, right? Yeah, so so I get seven. How many do you get in your turn? right Well, if you don't get any you get you get you get three Yeah, hopefully right like like let's let's just give you you completed your battle tactic. Okay, yeah Then I then you don't double turn me again Just gonna have it's the it is the likely outcome because of the way ties work, right? So it's like the 60 differential outcome that you don't double turn me Yeah, when you're but when you're playing for the devil you're playing into the not likely outcome as a worse Okay, I sit here again Right, I score seven again Okay And then if you don't get me off that turn if I'm now able to reset up my castle Reinforce those units in some way Right and and then build my numbers or get rid of units that you were threatening me with like I blow down both Of your units that you were threatening me with and put you back and reset you back to needing to move me again Then you're going to be then you have the very real possibility in your bottom of two to get three again Okay, I am now up by eight points over you which is a lot in 3.0 Right if you push us back to neutral in turn three Right, you're never going to catch me. I am now un-catchable right But I don't I think I have to check how the wording works too, but I think we were even talking about could Could a mega kick a middle objective onto the enemy Border and now it's worth four points as well I think it's I don't know I have to check the wording but that was one that was like sure If you kick it exactly, you know, you can at whatever angle you need to to get it right on there Another like test the angle until you get to the right distance like oh There we go. That's a good question. Yeah, I'm not sure on that. Yeah, I don't remember either But I think you said the objective instead of like any objective, but it's the same kind of thing Yeah, I mean I don't even need to do it like again just sit there with your six and call it a day You're winning. You're pulling eight a turn. You're unstoppable Like you'll you make the differential I just talked about look like a joke Because the key tyler with getting up by eight even once is that now they'd have to hold your point for two turns To score back that eight, right? Yeah Yeah, well, it's it's certainly difficult to argue the basic point that Is this better or worse? And I agree with you that it is worse, right? I you know we could quibble over some of the details in a 3.0 context about border war with battle tactics and grand strategies Yeah, but but yeah Battle for the past and 2.0 was probably my favorite My favorite battle plan and this is just a reimagined battle for the past Yeah, so I'm okay. I guess at the end of the day, but Yeah, it's not the worst thing in the world Yeah, but like I've tasted ambrosia that was this played the correct way So suddenly I come back down from Mount Olympus. I have a really good meal Even even you know, my grandma's baklava is not making up to the ambrosia up on the top of Olympus, you know You don't have to you don't have to stick your neck out on two fronts You can just do it on one which is kind of interesting though. I thought that was You know if you go first turn one, maybe you're just Fairly getting one, you know securing one of the metals and not even trying to do the other Yeah, sure the whole play All right, so we talked the battle plans to death Let's get into the next item because it is the one I'm most infuriated about on this list Yeah, uh, which is pitting. Oh, guess what? It's back again Just like with 2.0. What why? Gentlemen, I have a question. Why is it in the first FAQ we screw up? Uh, a perfectly good pylon system like a new edition launches it fixes pylons pylons is now perfect and smooth and and completely fine right Mm-hmm, and then we ruin it In the first FAQ we just immediately ruin it. I feel like I may have contributed this because this was one of my questions So just by the fact of asking a question contributed toward ruining I'm sure other people ask because the slam dunk layup obvious answer here Was when two units are equidistant you pick one of them and pile into it done Now people get to play with their toys Instead I can move two units up like I thought about doing a visual for this but I didn't let's talk about let's I want to make this real for everybody Here's a unit in the center a unit moves up here a unit moves up here This gets really offensive by the way with huracan and units Yes, okay. Yeah pile away Pile away and yeah charge in a pile away is correct Probably the worst version of it and they both activate it once because of lightning reflexes Right, right, so they just both pile away from you and now you're stuck. You literally can't move anywhere You're just you're in this sort of like suspended state of vibration like a freaking You're like a photon or whatever um So unit here unit here unit in the middle guess what where can these people file in nowhere? Yeah And what what I was whenever I was thinking through how this could work Is like imagining something like a like a go track that's coming up against me, right? If I charge two ish lian into a unit that's behind the go track And put their tails to where they're 2.9 on either side go track can't pile in He can't fight he can activate twice and just stand still and then the next turn He's surrounded probably he might not even be able to Move or pile in again If that makes I mean he can pile in zero inches. He's just locked in space Like if you do that to rk on he can fight you with this three inch weapons But right, right, right the key is you literally sit two people at the key would be to imagine here's go track Two people so like you get somebody's charged him. They're going to die Whatever you charge something is there to die, right? But then you have two other units that are at three inches Okay, or you pull them with the inches and they just sit there and you don't pile in with them anymore Now go track Once he slaughters that one thing that he was in combat with because of course, right He just sits there and vibrates in space You guys have made it even worse. Oh my god. He literally can go nowhere Right and his weapons aren't three inch reach so he cannot attack anyone or do anything He can retreat which is his only option then but but then if he has space again, right He can only retreat if you're not surrounding him to where If you haven't surrounded right, he doesn't even have a space to stay I move to do the retreat move and be four inches be outside of three of enemies So, I mean, I know he's he's he's a One of the demigods we'll talk about later, but uh, you could do it with anything really like Sure, like two units of sort of five up cab like cheapy cheapy cheap five cab like you're I think immediately to slanash, but like your classic stupid health writers They could just be like jump jump up to get to that I think the intention is so that is really about If you get base to base with two units Not being able to oh, I picked this unit and I'm going to pile around that unit and fight this buffer hero that is over here but I'm going to be okay with that rather than I think the pinning just causes more More feel bad and then it does anything else. Yeah, I just I hate that this exists This should be struck. This should just be like switch to the correct wording Which is pick one of the two if you are equidistant and pile in toward that unit again you fixed it Why do you keep unfixing things? I do not understand you write perfectly clean rules and I can't believe That three times in this didn't come up I just I cannot fathom that the equidistant thing didn't come up Six years in this question has been in every FAQ Okay When I had to write rules For the for the reigning health solo mission coming suit To a table near you so look for that pretty soon. It's in its final layout stages right now When I had to write the a oh, sorry the rain and hell solo rules rain and hell our fun brutal fast-paced skirmish game where you played Cabals of demons fighting for supremacy of hell check it out links in the description Uh, but anyway when I had to write solo rules for that I had to and I was writing how the ai of the monsters work One of the first things I did was say if they're within this inches Then they do this if there are multiple things within that many inches Then you randomly determine which one they had the monster moves to like I thought of it five seconds into writing You know rules for this thing and I'm not anybody How would we how is this not in the core book? Yeah, it's To me this is high up on the list of I would welcome toos actually just throwing in a house rule to fix this Like just just to avoid situations in games where that you know nonsense will come up against lumineath or whatever right and then and then there's there's also the Oh That that model is actually point one model inches from me instead of being Yeah base to base you you didn't quite get it if you don't say my intention is to be 2.9 away Or my intention is to be base to base. Oh, well look there's a gap I can put a piece of paper between this model. So I'm not base to base. So I'm gonna go over here Yeah, I mean It's all terrible. It's all terrible from top to bottom It is a bit is the wrong call and I just like this is one of those things It just speaks to like we didn't think through this and just gave the answer Yep, because the pylon's so much better It's been so smooth, right? Oh, yeah, it's great. It's great. There's a little bit of tricky stuff You could do. Hey, I'm piling around this unit because I want to fight this one or whatever It's you know, you're you have freedom of motion and especially with the When you add that the pinning plus the What's cohesion rules? Now you can cause even other problems like oh, well that one model can't move Because I've got him pinned So the rest of your unit can't move either because that one model's pinned and you have to stay in cohesion Yeah Even on a big big unit you can do that too. You know a one zombie is pinned so the rest of them Can't pile. I don't know. We're not maybe not zombies. They they have their own Yep, so at any rate, this is the wrong decision. Please undo it. Thank you. Please and thank you FAQ this FAQ fix this to the correct answer that we all agreed is so simple and easy And we all know what the right answer is thumbs up Uh ward saves now stack with non ward save feel no pains which all also stack with each other I have to believe this was done in error This clearly was intended for things like the armor of whatever the heck morph a bit of it above that that that like, uh Manford has where he can like ignore the first wound that comes in is what you think. Okay. I could see that Maybe I just think I don't know. I they've got to get Undo this I have to believe just send us a one word or one page FAQ that just fixes this one and yeah, so much better I I'm actually upset that it's Wednesday night and I haven't seen a correction for this yet Like legit. I'm upset about that The scary part to me was how specific And fairly precise the language was Like it was actually like it seemed very intentional Uh Despite being very wrong and the worst part of this entire fact by far This would be the thing I was most angry about like I was thermonuclear about this when I read it The fact that I tweeted about a rule thing Should tell you everything you need to know about how angry I was Because I don't tweet about rules things. I don't care, right? Yeah, this is one that this is one that I and other people like Other tournaments. I've seen have already said nope And that's what I'm doing with iron realms too I say you get one you get one word save and if it smells like a word save it's a word save Right, you don't get you don't get a before and after and you don't get multiple afters We and that's why I say I'm not as angry because I have to believe at this point This was just an error. They didn't carefully consider their words. It was the last minute They threw something in there and didn't think it through and we're like, oh, yeah also Oh, hey, this last question came in quick Let me bang out and answer this without thinking about consequences and then just like Put that in there and didn't realize that they had just like tossed a hand grenade into a fireworks factory Because I just No You've got one on the page coming up, which is pretty. Yeah the best word stack phoenix and settler's game Three plus armor five plus amulet four plus anointed five plus protection of templates six plus lumen arc six plus settlers Six rolls per wound That's what we all want to do What's funny is because like a lot of the stuff you can see what they tried to do When I what I feel like in the design space for 3.0 was we want to give reactions But we're trying to how do we speed up the game if we're going to give reactions Well, we'll just make everything pluses pluses and minuses so that way you don't have to do re-rolls But then this is what goes completely against that now. You've got more re-rolls and slowing the game down even more Like I hope that they're trying to get rid of re-roll ones to save re-roll all saves You know try to just do almost everything as a plus and minus and Move on right. Yeah. That was certainly part of the list of what we didn't see is yeah That we've still got some re-roll saves that are in the game that just need to get removed Yeah, I mean that's what I say. I think this is a mistake. That's why I'm not as angry about that's why I don't want to drill into this because it's not worth beating it up when I truly believe this is going to be undone Hopefully in the next couple days, it should have been undone Monday morning My honest answer. They should have gotten back into the office. It should have 10 a 10 minute conversation to reword this Answer so to say we specifically mean effects such as this These type of effects are considered word saves and then they could have listed the verbiage because they're all the same And then said that's it. This is a discrete answer meaning this stuff like No way no to allows this word save stacking. It's stupid. It's toxic. It's bad. We all know it We all agree with that the entire community simultaneously vomited on this And like it's obviously a mistake throw up a pole and we're hammer community. We'll vote for it. Let's move on Right. Yeah, just roll it back and we're all good. Okay. So great like it's one of those things It's so offensive. It has to be an error and I believe it will be rolled back period I love your order here. We're two for two and we're about to be three for three of the worst that need to get fixed Sylvaneth wild woods ruined You ever watched the bob ross twitch channel, you know ruined And uh, not a happy accident. It's this is not a happy accident. Uh, this is ruined again I don't know how this keeps happening with wild woods. It is Inconceivable to me, uh, let's talk about this in two different ways First off because of the aforementioned answer on a previous question to how terrain That is that is set up later in the game Which yes is considered to be faction terrain, which is is there sylvaneth and then maybe scaven Is there anyone else that gets to do terrain later in the game? The So they gave the answer that oh those all have to be set up in in your territory as basically as per their normal rules meaning in your territory, so No wrong like again, clearly that was an oversight and an error. There's no way they intended for feculent normal laws and uh, nobom gnaw holes and Oh, okay. Wild. I I thought I think the intention was just to keep it like off objectives or more than an inch Yeah, yeah They just didn't want you to be able to put it near objectives and on terrain and stuff like that Like it's their intention was yes It still has to be three inches away from all other terrain and all our objectives But the problem is they just like they love to just answer. Yes or no They can't bother themselves to type out a full answer Right a sentence Right. Okay. I like I hate to keep saying this like I'm the end all be all I'm not I don't like again I am an idiot To be clear But when I published an FAQ for rain and hell I like would give the answer and I would write like a paragraph of my intentions and thoughts behind that answer to a lot of questions Right if it was unless it was just a yes. No question like can you move like this? No, okay, cool Right if it didn't need anything else if it was literally that cut and dried But like or yeah, especially when it's like it's like a three-part question of yeah Yes, something this and then I wonder about this and this and then it'll be like a yes And it says yes to question one two or three And then the other big screw up with sylvaneth wildwoods, which again both of these things with sylvaneth wildwoods just feel like a mistakes I have to believe they'll be fixed. But like really You can't do the uh can't move through the Wildwoods anymore. You can't navigate the realm roots anymore. They this is a look I understand these were all mistakes like the word-safe thing. Yeah, the wildwood thing probably a mistake Okay Fine, I'm forgiving of mistakes. But guys, this is the third mistake in a row with wildwoods Yeah, okay. I was I was telling scott you know, uh Sproll I was like every time uh, every time I play against sylvaneth They have I have to ask how the rules work for the trees because they have changed like five times in every game I play it's different. Yeah So yes, they lost their navigate the realm roots because they moved it to the war scroll card And then when they remade the card then forgot to put it back on the card oopsie oopsie doopsie Tyler You know on the on the wildwoods, I mean we we've talked about this before events I'm glad that we have gone back to Look, you're not pooping at trees everywhere for each tree, you know, you're not getting three individual woods Three individual trees on three different spots on the board. That's obviously oppressive and like Yeah, like I get it sylvaneth player, but like guys we you know the valley like that's incredibly powerful It's amazing. If you're a sylvaneth player, it's horrible if you're playing against it in a lot of games It's horrible as a hobbyist to have to collect that many trees Like it's just it's just um, I'm very glad that they got rid of that They went back to how it was in cragnos, which was the right way to do it That's plenty of wild woods, you know do you can do the things you need to do So but yeah other like everything else is just kind of obvious fixes. Yeah And again, I'm forgiving but it like speaks to it just speaks to like this Epic you was already three weeks delayed and we still had errors like this like I mean come on guys What's going on over there in those offices like are they just overworked? Is that what's going on like I don't So I just if it's if it's them getting burned out then I'm sorry that sucks Okay, but this kind of stuff just shouldn't make it to print It just shouldn't Right, right like if it happened once fine. Everybody makes mistakes. No book is ever gonna print perfect I don't I'm not asking for that. Okay, and I'm not stupid enough to think that's the case But like your third shot at it across the bow in as many months. We couldn't nail it this time No So, you know, okay Anyways, wild woods, I assume they'll be fixed much like marathi spear. We'll take a fourth fifth crack at it I don't know what we're on now and uh, they had original recipe woods cragnos woods new woods and then this would so it'll be the fifth time and uh Yeah, hopefully we'll get it fifth time's a charm. That's the old saying so we'll get her Okay, uh the next wrong call Uh ko fly high they can replace the move from alpha beast pack with a fly high This is some dumb stuff Yeah Like this is just the wrong wrong wrong Call wrong wrong wrong wrong Even even even with like eggs was wicked list, you know, he was like, oh, I'm not doing that, you know, people I don't know. It's just the wrong way. Yeah, we've already lived in this world and it was terrible. It was called clown car And nobody liked it. Right. You don't need to go back to it And and this is probably going to be worse than clown car what this could enable Uh, yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah, and this is one that I don't feel like as a to I can I can sure rule against it Like the word saves I can I can say house. That's not house rules. We're not playing it that way but this one I feel like they gave a clear direction and If if I tried to back off of it, it would just be targeting one Yeah, one army and so I don't Right. I'll feel right about it. I side with noops. I love noops comment. I move d six inches anywhere on the board I Mean that's what this enables So for people who aren't aware fly high is an ability of ko boats that instead of making a normal move They can teleport effectively they lift off fly high and then can land anywhere on the board nine inches away from enemies Now they can then uh because uh, they they can't dump people after they move in the movement phase That is to say they can't dump their garrison However, yeah, that's if they move in the move phase So if you move in some other way, like I don't know Let's say two boats like a frigate and an ironclad or two ironclads or whatever Moving in the pre-game move phase. They can then dump both armies But they can dump both clads nine inches away from you then they can dump all the people out When they go first because there'll be like a one drop two drop list And so they'll dump out 20 thunders plus 10 thunders plus support Uh, which those can drop up to six inches away from the boat And they don't have a nine inch restriction when you drop from a garrison So they can drop to three inches away So then you've got like 30 thunders and the support characters all at three inches off your line plus the boats And then they can go 420 blaze it right into your face and the boats can in the movement phase leave All right, or the other way they could play it is They fly high and the alpha beast back move Now they're nine inches away and in the movement phase they move to three inches And you're here or that you thought was safe in the back of the you know, but back corner hiding nope Now you the whole board is is targetable With all of their big guns and oh sure sure I mean, that's probably the worst way to do it because they're gonna likely get hurt in the hit back, but I should also mention that you're probably eating a work lighting vortex in that alpha strike Oh, yeah, and yeah, and they can if they do that, you know, they could potentially throw that work lighting right right on your army Yeah, because that's just gonna be able to like put that wherever they want at that point Yes, because they're so deep in and they are In your guts Or they could even throw the uh, what is it the shackles that? No, maybe it's not that don't let you Charge or charge. Yeah. Yeah shackles. It's not not as I mean, I guess warp lighting is just a better value overall Um, the other thing I've run into with like, uh Alpha and yes, I'm sorry James Mitchell said it's a three-drop list. Thank you James. You're absolutely right. It is three drop Thank you. Sorry. Go ahead The other thing I've run into with alpha beast back was if two people have alpha beast back Who does pregame move first and we've rolled off for it, but Is do you guys have other things where they're like multiple people have pregame moves? What order they happen in and yeah, I think they were sometimes where it's like Depending on where you move might decide where I want to move that kind of thing Uh, I mean the because the answer is always as far as I've known it's always been you roll off for it. That's yeah It's like if you both have faction terrain That gets set up pre-deployment. Yeah, you just roll off for it to move all three or do you roll off for it and then alternate? No, that's a good question I would guess you would do all of your actions and then your opponent would which is a pretty consequential roll-off Yep, yeah Sounds to me like a like an FAQ for the FAQ Yeah Pauli made me think of horror gas might be a horrifying Want to drop out of that don't get the battle shock and then they start shooting all year. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun Oh lords. Yeah. No, I hate this with a deep passion. Like we're four for four You know the events with these these four in a row here Yeah, I mean this one was very clear and again just like the the wrongest of calls Uh, Leviadons can no longer take mount traits seemingly So crazy horse earlier said that the rules in the individual book overruled this because basically they said only heroes can take mount traits So it's Leviadon is not a hero, but it has mount traits Uh, I think that's probably arguably correct. This would be this is again one of those things That's just going to create confusion like I tend to agree with with crazy horses ruling It's obvious that of course Leviadons can take mount traits like a doi We're all going to just rule it that way and ignore what that those words say Yeah, but I hate it when they print words that create confusion But I think that the ruling right now forces you to not be able to take a second mount trait if you have a second leviadon Unfortunately, I mean It's another thing where most people aren't going to care if you're going to spend your whole enhancement to get one mount trait but right sure Yep And then yes faction train summon has to be in your deployment area, which is an obvious oversight So that was the other part of the silvaneth wildwoods. We already Is there is there any other monsters that don't have heroes on them in the book like mount traits? Yeah, uh, yeah, uh, so like grave lords, uh, oven gory guys, right? They're terror guys regular guys. Yeah, you can you can give it to the vampire lord on zombie dragon But the regular foot terror guys and zombie dragons can also take them. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yep So anyway, these are the wrong calls, uh, it should be mentioned that on the word save thing I just before we leave this page behind That they did fix the bodyguarding rule. So now you either bodyguard or you take a word, which is great That was a great call. I'm glad they closed that loophole at the unit You passed the wound to can still get their ward ward roll, which I don't think should happen I think if you bodyguard it should just be like that wound as it becomes unstoppable in any way Uh, but nonetheless, at least they closed the bodyguard loophole to a point But then they opened up the word save thing. So it was like Half step forward 10 steps back. So yeah It's just like Michael Jackson moonwalking across the backwards across the stage. They went so far back with the word mistake. So There we go Sorry, not sorry, Sean Get away with your bellicorps pinks nonsense That was my game one at flying monkey paul Didn't know that. Oh, yeah, it's all so much fun So much fun All right, so wrong calls behind Uh, I just I have a little breakdown of the word feel no pain issue here Just in case anybody ran into it like in case everybody in the chat seems to be on board But just in case there was any confusion about the word feel no pain issue The issue here is here is amulet of destiny the bearer has a ward of five plus What is a ward some of the ladies allowed to roll a dice to indicate a wound before It is allocated Up to one ward roll can be made for each wound or mortal wound before It is allocated to the model in question And then if you look down here at things like witness to destiny or protection of the horned rat If this model includes an anointed roll a dice each time you allocate. So after you have allocated it Uh on a four plus that winter mortal wound is negated Here's the protection of the horned rat from the demon care from the vermin lords And then so here is your nightmare sort of one of your nightmare examples settlers gain example I use the same one in my presentation, which is three up five up four up six up You can technically have more six ups But I think you can just stop there and call it nonsense like you we you can go farther, but we don't need to Yeah, we can have someone try to set the record like might be like six or seven if they Right. I'm sure there's like truly insane nonsense you can get to but the reality is this one isn't that hard This is kind of just existing like a lot of these are fairly automatic Right. So that that's where it becomes problematic. We're not even talking about doing that much here This is like one spell cast. That's it. This is what happens when one spell gets cast. This is what it looks like So, yeah The big stuff, uh, yeah, let's talk about the big stuff Okay The big stuff here. I have the bodyguard thing. I didn't trust myself I do have it All right, big stuff Archeon the eye of Ed Sheeran Now simply gives neg one to be hit once per game A plus love this change here. Let me tell you what I love about this They looked at Archeon and said What is the thing on this scroll that is actually making him super powerful? And it was the eye of Ed Sheeran. It absolutely was Okay, because him forcing re-roll Forcing re-rolls on hits of six was simply his most powerful defensive ability full stop Because most with all the mortal wounds that are coming. Absolutely. Yeah Yep So many things that are dangerous in this game are dangerous because they trigger some effect on a six to hit You know, usually mortals, but there are other things could be multi hits could be whatever, right? and And so they properly identified his one truly offensive rule and just zapped it right away And what I love about the change is not only do they make it a once a game thing But the neg one then also doesn't stack in the place where he's the most offensive Which is in zinch Right where he's already got built in neg one to hit all the time This was a great Change. Yeah, this is one of the best things they did in this back Yeah, this was this was rather than just like a Like a clarification of a rule. This is one where they purposefully But and I still think it's a small nerf that into the day From the game I watched last night and my game at monkey playing against zinch RK on that. Yeah, I'll show you. Yeah in a couple slides. We'll talk about How he becomes Unkillable against normal damage Yep Yeah But now definitely agree. Yeah, if you're going to change one thing without changing points or whatever This is the thing. So this is how we should be fixing stuff Right. This is it like this is the template for going forward They laser targeted the actual offensive thing And zapped it with a perfect substitution I can't I cannot praise this enough I am as happy about this as I am I was as I was upset on some of the previous things This is great Like yeah, good stuff Horrors complete rewrite of the scroll. We'll go take a look at that in just a moment. So we'll skip that one for a second Uh obr arc on can no longer multicast mystic shield. Good change Um, so positive and rdp. They can now use the same obr command multiple times per phase. Yay Yep. Yeah Great change great change way to give obr back some game It's a great change. Just don't give them command points. Like be like, oh, I feel bad They're gonna get regular command points now to Just stay stay stay there. Yep. We're good The combination like I love that they made the units and obr all elite all their big multi sold monster dudes And I love that they fixed rdp and I love that they stopped the stupid arc on thing Because it was your incentive was too much to take arc on every time and just machine gun It was pretty obnoxious playing against it. Yeah, it was just an obnoxious incentive structure. Yeah It's great Yep, good changes Uh, and then as I mentioned bodyguard now doesn't work with the word save the unit capacity still takes a word save And cast dwarves officially move to legends as does the bailaway vortex as we knew it happened because they didn't get new Points, but you know now they made it official so Cool both breakers 2022. Let's do it. There it is. Yep. They're they're coming back Don't worry for all that for for you for chaos dwarves players out there Don't worry. You're getting your new army in 2022 or 2023 or something And I have a strong feeling you're gonna have a bunch of new friends who were always chaos dwarf players Of course, of course So did you see that? That word save for after the pass off like Specifically or are you just because they didn't tell you can't now you still can they didn't tell you can't hence You still can the timing on it would mean it still can since it's replacing the Since it's replacing the timing on it would still work, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's fine um Okay It's cool. Again. I like the bodyguard change. I'm on board for that I hated the fact that you could bodyguard that you could like ward and bodyguard it was Given I did abuse it at the tournament I just went to but it was silly Yeah on that I don't really see a problem with Okay, you roll a four up to put a dawn pinks and the pinks have a six up ward I don't really see a problem with that with the ward that seems reasonable I don't know that it's problem at it's just more rolling like it is what it is, you know what I mean like I I don't know that there's anything too incredibly offensive about it. Um, it it certainly means like, um Anointeds are really really immortal like the regular anointed on foot or whatever Because he can get the bodyguard of his regular phoenix guard boys in cities right So he's just like mr. Four ups You know, if you're looking for a foot general in cities that will never die boy is he a hot pick, right? It's like him and ten phoenix guard behind him just like hey boss. We got this Yeah You know anyways It's not it's again. It's not a game breaking situation, right? Yeah so Um, would you accept the ward save faq if every feel no pain in the game was rotted into a ward? Yeah, sure, of course because then it wouldn't do anything if they would have given that answer that what they should have done Was actually do the work and go through and rewritten every ward every feel no pain in the game into a true ward save That would have been the actual thing to do But that was too much work. So I mean we didn't do it And I again, I don't fault them. My guess is they're already overtaxed to the lax and have no time for stuff like that Which is a problem, right? I mean you're making money hand over fist hire some people So I don't blame the people working there. I blame whoever's not hiring them Okay No, paul is going into night mode. He's getting it's getting dark over there. I don't know. I just feel like I'm a flashlight I've been trying to get my lights figured out. I guess Now you're like you're you're like in the club. Yeah, put some little sticks a little too much. All right. You're very dark Uh, all right, so that's the big stuff Um, cool All right Let's talk about horrors. Shall we? Um, here's their new scroll. Uh, the things that they lost And the things that they gained okay So they gained a couple extra shots and attacks out of the iridescent guy They no longer have the little banner that when they roll a one or use a destiny dice for a one they can, um They can replace models. That doesn't happen anymore They're no longer wizards And they They can now even though they're not wizards. They can still generate a faked point Because you get to everybody who has their little their little standard bear You get a roll of dying on a three up you get one faked point from the unit In at the start of your hero phase Their musician now adds plus one to their save rolls. So he's a good tutor. He's just two tooting along plus one to save Do do do Is that is that just one pink? That's the musician or do they have one in every ten can be a musician? Yeah They got a little hornblower, dude Uh They are yes, they are better in melee. Thank you, Andrew. Absolutely because they're they're not fives and fours And uh like down the line. They're all fours and fours now Um and they Are immune to battle shock, but also can't be res they they're immune to battle shock Basically all the time. Basically. Yeah, they have to take 35 wounds From the starting unit to get them into a place where they have to risk a battle shock All right, and then you're only battle shocking off the the brims Yep, and so the Uh effectively when you when they split and split again You choose between split and split again or petty vengeance. You're you're always going to take split and split again I don't even know why that's insanity but anyways When you take split and split again and your pink becomes two blues or your blues become brims They don't actually count as slain right And the important part there is because they don't count as slain A lot of things result from that like they don't count towards battle shock But they also don't count as slain for the purposes of anything that restores slain models Right, which is a lot of different things, which is a lot of the stuff that was oppressive potential rally If you play it the same way as everything else Yeah And then it comes. Well, what do you bring my pinks? Do you bring back? Whatever model that you That kind of stuff Uh, I'll hold my thought for a minute. Paul. What do you think of this change to horrors overall? I like it better. I mean, I think that there's a little there's some good and some bad but overall playing against it. I'm less frustrated To see pinks on the other side of the board and I still think that they can play a big role in the army So I think it's overall pretty good. Yeah Yeah Uh, I mean, I I'll I'll wait Tyler your thoughts. Uh, yeah, no, there's still one of the best battle line units in the game They retain tremendous value and the nonsense is generally gone There's a lot of things that can burn them down, you know to do 30 wounds Uh, 35 wounds to trigger the battle shock with the brems So, yeah, I think this is really impressive to me the work that they did on this war scroll Like yeah, they they did a really good job. I think and they didn't they didn't like Just completely obliterate how the unit works. Exactly. They didn't just be like, oh But you get you get 30 Horrors and they're all on the board and they don't split or something, you know, they they still kept some of the Uniqueness of them. Yeah Yeah, I mean some I've seen some people say, oh, are they worth it in for points now like yes, yes My god, yes, like unquestionably. Yes, they're what 215 points 210 points I don't remember exactly, but it's I'm in the neighborhood, right And they're 50 wounds. Yes, right Like some armies 50 wounds is 500 points, you know, like that's the cheapest Wounds you can get it is literally the best point to wound ratio in the game. It's better than zombies right And zombies have no save not a six up save slash five up save for for the well as long as the pinks are alive slash, uh, you know A unit that makes 33 ranged attacks out of 10 dudes So Yes, they're not spellcasters anymore So their ranged attack isn't quite as good like that is to say it's it's 33 attacks on fives and fours So like hey, we're not talking about world end is shattering damage here and they can't give themselves the plus one to hit anymore But you know, it's still a lot of attacks. They could still get rend if they wanted to in, uh, eternal conflag They could still get uh, you can't retreat from them, which I think is actually Really really really strong because they are just like a super tar pit now in, uh, host You know in in host duplicates or whatever where you cannot retreat from them. That's just so so so so so so good Um for armies that can't you know fight themselves out of a 50 wound tar pit, right? Sure Yeah, I mean they're they're unquestionably still worth it. But this is such a cleaner war scroll Yeah, it's it's crazy how much cleaner this is so the the main thing that's still going to be frustrating is Whenever they're splitting and splitting again that In the actual game the time that takes but To get to get to change that I think you have to you would have to change the unit too much Yeah, I mean they the the the terrible part about this unit is that silver tower happened and somebody decided that brim should exist That's that's ultimately where this unit went really was that where brims came from. Yes, where they just picked some blues before then Yep, yep Yep Then we made silver tower and decided we needed other fun little enemies to have happen because pinks were kind of like an elite enemy in uh In silver tower because of their split and split again the way it worked They were really hard to tackle and then as soon as those brims existed That was it It's been all downhill from there Yeah, 215 and scroll builder. So yeah, just still incredible value. Yeah 100% So, yeah But a good change a good change. It is now just a big old tar pit. It's a big old tar pit unit and That's cool. That's it. That's good play-ins each You know, each kind of wants to build a little magic castle, right? And do the little magic tricks inside of it So and this is a good unit to support that sports their play style And a small a small thing. No, I guess could they Cast a second time with the cogs around or could they not they could they not They could have yeah, because I thought they don't they only know the one spell Uh the Horses themselves the horrors themselves Uh, they knew their own spell and now maybe you're right. Maybe they didn't know any other spell or haven't failed I think Um, no, because you could they were still casters. So you could still have them do stuff under cogs like I think I need to go I don't I remember the rule, but I think you could have them wheel out things like, um Like endless spells and stuff like that. Okay Yeah, I guess I ever any any wizard can do it in the spell normally right unless they have an exception or something Okay, so but anyways, they the point is they're not wizards anymore. So good Yes Yeah, uh T. Serrati says yes, they could but they often didn't have anything to cast. So there you go. Um, yeah, so good stuff Uh, a state of kevin says did they get into gets kevin? I'm sorry to tell you there was no changes of note in gets They were even worth mentioning buddy I apologize. I wish there was but uh, they did not change anything in gets that was worth talking about I think there were four happy to have you at the show brother Yeah, what they're four factions that didn't get anything luminous night on idk idk Maybe maybe sake Hey, let's talk about what speaking of that tyler. That sounds like a perfect transition into what we didn't see Okay There we go, I lost my laptop Uh, what we didn't see Yes, as you mentioned lrl fec, uh all those kinds of things had, uh Basically didn't get an f aq The uh, so we just don't know. Okay, that's fine a state of kevin says they What about the hoppers and the and the boing boing boing stuff? Yes, that's true. They did clarify the boing boing boing stuff It's fine Uh, I did that didn't raise the level of I thought it needed to be mentioned I'm sorry state of kevin. I don't mean to let you down, but it was good. They clarified its quick offers But clearly you didn't need me to tell you you already knew so you were good All right Some obvious items not addressed. I'm gonna Rattle through these we're gonna get into the next slides and talk about them But I want us to just after I rattle through them Gentlemen, I want you to rank these right now. Okay, not against each other just on a one to ten From thing you would you don't really care if you ever see it To thing that you feel is uh a mortal sin that it wasn't included in this f aq Okay Here we go Go trek no points change no scroll scroll change marathi no points change lrl fox movement Didn't get changed back the way it should be schrodinger's battle line not answered Can you triple reinforce a coalition battle line unit? Save stacking and the remaining re-rolls that didn't get removed and still remain cogs still broken Sons of behemoth probably still too powerful and only getting stronger every day between changes to savage gains And changes to the there that they got in white dwarf so Let's go through it one Being you do not give a crap if it ever gets addressed 10 being it should be changed tomorrow Let's start at the beginning go trek paul. Where are you at? Uh, he's uh eight he needs to go up in points or get a warskill change. I mean i've been playing him Um, he just does way too much work for his points tyler Pretty much the exact same. Yeah eights and but it has been in the game the same way for the last year and a half and With higher points. Nobody really even barely played them So I know the board smaller redeploy Healing heal. Yeah the the stacking that's one thing I want to add too to the what I want to see When I was talking about that today with some people was What if you could only heal? Once per game heroic recovery was a once per game like uh, like your best day ever I think that or once per turn even instead of being like 10 times a game if you need to you know I mean heroic recovery could also just be like properly written and not badly written like it is now I'm going to rewrite it for you right now in a way that they should have written it It's very easy because they already did it once for the monstrous abilities. You ready? Heroic recovery roll a die on a three up. You heal d three wounds Four up you can pick the number. I don't care But just like instead of being about your bravery, you know, because there's always 10 10 bravery stuff that don't Yep, because 10 bravery people have a 90 plus percent chance to achieve the healing. Yep I think the thing that's most gullying. I mean certainly his points are too cheap right now not Dramatically too cheap, but like, you know feels like 180 to 100 point increase Somewhere around I think about 550. He'd still be I'd still consider putting them on my list. Um, yeah Exactly man, it's the fact that you can take him at hunters of the heartlands because for some reason he doesn't have the leader designation That's quite strange. Yep. I think the like I agree. It's an eight go treks offensive. It's ridiculous how like it's not that again I think sometimes when I say this people feel like People feel like I'm saying oh he insta wins every game he's in or there's no counterplay against him That's not what we're saying. It's just he is punching too far above his weight like it's just I mean, you know That's that's it. He just is too efficient. I don't know how you prima fascia think otherwise, right? Yeah, um, so yeah, I agree get him out of hunters of heartlands. That's number one He shouldn't ever be able to be taken in that battalion. It's clearly not intended for him And to well and give him if you're gonna do that just give him the leader keyword So that way I can score him on the The places of our old new places of arcane power because that's one of the Oh You can't score on that one, right? So, yeah, I mean he's he needs to be somewhere between 500 and 550 I don't know exactly what the right number is do your calculations figure it out. It's somewhere in that range But it's higher than 535 or 435. I know that for darn sure Yeah So, okay. I'm also at an eight. I completely agree with you both of your ratings Marathi Points we're okay. So one through 10 paul. Where you at? um seven Not as important as go trek, but she needs to go up She does too much And especially it depends on the ring. Is it ring two or in one? And now she's officially ready to again so I still say seven it's not the most important thing in the game, but abstain Only one army could take her Tyler take put the number down. You know what it is I'm joking Yeah, it's let's see It's it's seven to eight It's probably at least an eight the minus two rend is uh, is a big deal I mean, we've talked a lot about this how If you had mine razor The light switch was on if you didn't a lot of cases it's off And you're not sending her in because she's just gonna bounce and she's gonna take three wounds And you never want to have her taking three wounds in your turn. You can control that all of sequel What if you keep the points the same but she loses her? Shoot or fight in the hero phase thing Would you take that? Oh, yeah, that would be an enormous change. Yeah, she yeah, I think she definitely like I'd be fine with her at her Points if she loved that or if she lost that. Yeah, she lost that. Yeah, definitely Would she be worth so I think she's 660 right now. Would she be worth that? Yeah, she'd be on the expensive side of what was worth it because she's still a super unique tech piece Right, but she would she would that would inadvertently also balance bow snakes out if you made that change Yeah Or if you restricted her command ability to like once again, she can do this thing or something like that again I would I would be for that right like there's there's other ways you could do it But all of these things have some kind of like I'm not we're we're gonna talk about how we fix this Just a moment. I actually have another slide for what the kinds of things we want to see So that's why I'm just trying to test like how bad is this? We'll talk fixes in just a second. So you're like what you said seven or eight Yeah, seven seven eight I do I do think it's a big deal that she's got the minus two run back and she is definitely too efficient But again, it's like we discussed last time. We're not talking about an enormous point increase But she does need a point increase. Yeah, I'm gonna seven on her. She's not as offensive as go direct to me I agree, but like She's Too low by like she's just too low. I mean that's again, it's just sort of obvious LRL fox movement Uh What's your number paul? The fact that the foxes are immune to melee I guess a six. I've I've only played against a single fox before And so I think if I played against a quad fox, I would be telling you a different number, but Fair enough Tyler Yeah, let's see Probably I feel like we're giving boring answers here, but all the same. Yeah, it's around a seven like I do think it's an enormous Example of non-play experience negative play experience That you can have a melee army that just can't do a damn thing to these things. It's stupid That's a 24 inch movement is is bad, but the The the move in the shooting phase is where every shooting phase is worse even if it was just Not in the enemy shooting phase. I think that would take away a lot of the feel-bats sure Hey, I mean I like hold on. Hey, these deathguards said they're not that immune to melee. You can still get them I would like for you to chart me out the way that you catch these guys in melee under a reasonable Circumstances that doesn't include surrounding them with your entire army All circumstances. Yes. I would love to know. I like I'm not doubting you I'm saying type that out the comments, buddy. You can write me a novel I want to know how you catch them because any smart player should move them 15 inches away from your army in the end of your shooting phase every time Yeah, and guys, I get it like There's an argument. Maybe the foxes are a little too high in a in a vacuum severeth There's there's, you know, they're not Destroying the scene that you know, even the fox spam list is doing well I've seen it ran by good players like joe crier and it's doing very well All that to me is just beside the points like These goes back to arguments we made on the show Tom and vence have made over the years like that doesn't matter It's just the fact that you have armies in this game that cannot do anything against them And it's a terrible play experience If you're an iron jaws or you know, whatever you might be that's a pure melee army So sort of like it's a prima facie argument. That's just bad design Allowing them move in the at the end. What could that just to play devil's advocate couldn't That just say well, if you don't have any shooting or magic mortals in your army, then That's your own fault for being too focused on one Build type Yeah, potentially, I mean, I guess except for like sure. What was my shooting in magic option in corn? Sure, what was my shooting in magic option in in nergal My shooting in magic option in beasts my shooting in magic option in night haunt My shooting in magic option in slanesh my shooting in magic option in iron jaws You know, that's only like a quarter of the army And you know, like I I saw veto said iron jaws can because they can charge in the hero phase No, they can't and again because that assumes that the fox player is stupid enough to move up to be within range there Like they have the bow range They're just going to not be that close Right at the point where you could charge them in your hero phase Like yeah, you can charge in their face, but you're not going to be in range Yes, it is possible But the player will just change the way they play because their bows have decent range Right, they don't need to be that close. They'll sit at 11 inches or 12 inches. They can still easily shoot you right And then they'll just And then Like okay, I'll move in the hero phase. Okay, cool. You can move up to three inches Roll up. Sure. I'll let you go ahead mighty destroyers. Try to charge me roll that 11 Right with your plus one to charge knock yourself out, right? If you get them, you got it. Congratulations, right? And then and then they're just gonna then Float away from me float away So like again, that assumes that the enemy player is like brain dead And doesn't just minorly adapt to what the enemy capabilities are. That's that's the challenge there Like I said, I haven't looked closely at the foxes and this is like so if we If they were written the right way where they cannot move in the enemy shooting phase How much does that change their playability? Like how much are they Banking on that right now to be playable at all if that's the case then maybe the points should go down I don't know. I haven't looked that closely at them Do they still get to do the pile away or is that old battalion? No, they still get to pile away. That is still a thing they can do. That wasn't Relying on the battalion. So even if you like get into them like one dies and the other two pile away and correct you Yep Yep Um, yeah, I mean, I just don't I hate ease. I saw what you wrote I just don't buy it because again like there's just not enough space and there's not enough I don't know what that is like I've played against the foxes and I've never caught one in melee Even like actively trying Um, like they move 15 inches away from you and there's always somewhere to go Their base isn't that big Yeah Yeah, I killed one in melee only because he wanted to Come back because he he he had to fight. He had to fight my unit to get him off an objective So right and they don't do a lot of damage. That's absolutely true Like the regular foxes are neg two rend d three damage on four shots the the Severeth is neg three rend four shots d three damage each, right? and You know like and then they have a move over you mortal wounds thing um They You know, they They're not like they're they're chip damage for the most part. They can't assassinate characters quite well Because they have a very good hit and wound Um, yeah, I mean, I'll give you my honest answer here Uh, it's a nine for me I want to see in the future and it's not because it's broke as a joke or or because it wins I don't think any of that. I think it's like I think fox force five is a stupid list Where they float the entire thing up to three inches away from you if you're not a shooting army And then they stop they've let me pin you in your space So you can't ever do them and then they just leave They float back and then you can't charge anything and then they next round They move up and pin you in your zone again and then move away again It's annoying and stupid and awful and a bad play style My answer why it's a nine is simple. It's not it's not as though It's some broke as a joke thing. It's not right because they aren't super damaging. They are mostly annoying I think their points are relatively fine and well balanced, right? I just think that type of weird situation shouldn't exist It is if I work like when we did the npe show 72 of the respondents said that the number one way they define npe is when When a rule takes away interactivity Hmm, right And I can't think of a less interactive way to play than the way the foxes play It literally takes away almost all counterplay It says if you don't have this very specific thing You cannot kill this unit or counterplay it And I just find that to be a bad experience That's what it comes down to so no, I don't think they're overtly powerful I'm not asking for the FAQ because I think they're overtly powerful Again, I played against the foxes a couple times, you know, and I won more of those games than I lost right Not that I should be like the baseline judge I'm just saying I think it's a bad thing that shouldn't exist because it's just taking the fun out of the game And it is a negative play experience defined Like if I like if I looked up negative play experience, it would just be a picture of these guys Yeah, it's me It's it is I mean it it's the one that stands out the most over the six years of this game to be honest Right. I mean that that could be recency bias. I mean, there's been a lot of nonsense over the years But yeah, I played the spam with iron gels and I played one I played severth only with iron gels and I mean, they were both just it's just it's done Yeah, it's just it's just a feel bad for no reason. It doesn't need to be like that Right. So Yeah, there you go That's it. That's that's sort of why it's a nine for me, right? Because again, it's not necessarily like all these are so the first two were so were a power question This is just a it's a bad play expectation. That's all Um, Schrodinger's battle line one through 10. How quick does this need to be answered? I'll give it a three Okay, not a big deal to me. I don't know. I guess because I don't play The army's the coalition units. Sure. It's like I don't really care, but I guess clarify it But it's not a big deal to me. Sure Tyler Yeah, I kind of middle of the road and like maybe a five I mean, it's it's only one of those that would like to see clarified, but I'm not sure if it's having an outsized impact that it's not been clarified. Mm-hmm. Yep Uh 10 answer this now. This is silly. It wasn't answered already. I know it was asked Why isn't this answered? Why do I have a basic question about how many models I can take in a unit? Yeah, that is a fundamental thing. Again, there's nothing broken about this. There's nothing bad about it. It just Shouldn't exist Just give an answer. There's no there's no greater things that need to be considered here Right. This is like well you because you got go track. You're like, well, we don't want to make him broken But we want people to still use him. He's a really fun cool narrative character And you know a lot of people really have love for him. So we got to take a gentle hand with him Okay, I understand you want to take some time to think about how you fix go track like I'm good with that This isn't one of those things. Just give an answer Just type it out man How hard can this one be? Just it is or it isn't I like Open the box. Is there a dead cat in there or not? I don't know right Uh save stacking one through 10 poll 10 Tyler Oh goodness As you know, I've had some of two minds about this which will come out here tonight So Seven Yeah, I'm gonna go for I'm gonna go for an eight But this one's really interesting and Paul prepared some awesome data before the show We're gonna dive into this one. I am excited about this Uh, yeah, I'm gonna solid eight on this one I think it's interesting when it matters and when it doesn't and there's all sorts of nuance to this conversation Yeah, but it's I'm high like it's one of my highest ones I just think there's a lot of implications and there's one thing that we'll talk about when we get to the how to fix this stuff Yeah, um, that is that it's going to be a challenge I see a lot of people like spamming the comments with 10s and 11s I get where you're coming from because this annoys the living they have played in immortal care Right. Yeah, this this one annoys the bejesus out of me as well. So like I get that answer I'm not I like if you said 10 to this and it provoked that kind of response. Hey, man I get it, but there are some consequences that we need to think through You know, we'll talk about those um cogs Cogs and its current form paul eight I mean, there's two there's two armies or three armies that hollow heart zinch and lumenath and So it doesn't affect every part of the thing, but Just make it where three you pick three units that are within 12 instead of saying all units or one or whatever Something some number define the number Put a number on it. Just don't let it be 12 Not everybody in the army, right This feels so easy. Yes Tyler Yeah, run a nine. Yeah, it's it's incredibly dumb and in zinch and a couple of others, but yeah Like I would love to have the points in my iron jaws list to throw this in so that I can have another spell cast with just one Weird knob and use it, you know generally seemingly the way that it's intended. Yeah, you're getting a Yeah, you're getting a single extra spell for 45 points. Sounds great to me. Like that's good value in a lot of lists But unfortunately, that's not how it works Mancoba dad said zero, but I'm a hollow heart player. Yeah, that's fair. Get that Yeah, I'm a solid nine on this one as well. I just think cogs is horribly offensive And it either needs to like jack up a hundred points or set the number like you got you got a choice here I will talk about fixes at the end. Okay, and then sons of them What's what do we need to do to address them? I say seven I I still I see I see the stats we showed at the beginning and I know that there's people there's lots of lists that just can't handle that Can't because of whatever but I don't I don't think we have to break them. I just sure we just gotta figure out how to Reduce something on them either counting ass or wounds for Megas or man crushers. I don't know. Yep Tyler Yeah, that's I'd like to See where we are Like no major changes to the game. No safe stacking removal. See where we are in three four months So because to me it feels like we could be in a they could be More in line around that time frame So Six like I get it a lot of our as you just said Paul A number of armies struggle to pass the DPS checks the damage per second to get them off the board In enough time to where you've not been outscored. I get it like that. Yeah, that's that's the challenge right now You absolutely have to focus them down one at a time So if you're spreading your damage around don't do that Like kill one at a time all a sequel But yeah, I'd really be curious to see where we are with no major changes to the game in four or five months Yeah These guys I'm still coming to terms with this right But I mean my answer is I do think it's my answer is probably a five, but that's higher if they don't fix safe stacking That's gonna be my answer right because I think that's where a lot of the problem comes from Especially now that with the new battalions, you can have two megas who are spellcasters pretty easy sure So I have one of them with the five up save. Yeah, one of them's got amulet You got two guys was who couldn't potentially mystic shield if they you know like not I don't understand I can't both do it. I'm just saying like you have two different sources of mystic shield, right? Depending on where you need to be on the board and so on and so forth So that's challenging Like I just think they're Yeah, I mean they're they're too good. So one one that's not on the list that Tyler and I talked about is That I think is one of the key things is Measurement like Is within is within 12. Is that a cylinder or is that a bubble? Is it a sphere of within 12 because we're playing a 3d game? And they have all this stuff that they don't define whether it's a 2d measurement or 3d measurement And so there's all there's Lots of things throughout the game that it's not clear whether they intend it to be within three horizontally or within three You know in 3d space that kind of stuff three and 12. That's one that I would like to get cleared up Yeah, that's it. That would be a good cleanup. That's a nice. That's a nice shout out I don't know they like you're saying like there's a guy up on a building Does he measuring down and creating a little trying like a cone of his ability or are you measuring sort of flat out from him? Right, right. You're measuring from the base, but How do you sometimes it's how it's almost impossible to measure in three dimensionals with Yeah Yeah, I mean, I think essentially Paul. Yeah, you're just measuring the horizontal the flat horizontal plane But I can understand why Because I was thinking the opposite. So yeah, there you go. That's that nope. That shows why we probably need to answer Yeah, well, my reference point would be measuring two objectives from a vertical From a vertical height. Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. You're just measuring But I assume that's because the objective is a giant cylinder. Yeah, that's I assume it's a cylinder, but We don't like I can't be touching the assuming is really not the same as As an answer ruling as as an army, you know as a way to play the game Everyone needs to have the same assumption. So yeah, that's fair. Yeah Yeah, no, it's good answer. That that is sort of an unclear thing. I'm with that. That's a good call All right. Now, let's look at some awesome math. Who's ready for math? Oh, yeah, math time with with paul Okay, so Paul I'm gonna let you handle this So this is the first slide you gave me which is save stacking math versus rent now I cut off the plus zero save because I had to make a schedule, right? Yeah, it's kind of a Plus one save plus two to save plus three to save walk us through kind of what this chart means and how we're supposed to read it Okay, so what I was trying to Think through was how you know, one of the questions was is save stacking bad and And explain how bad maybe it is. So basically I looked through and said The first the first three blocks are the top block is How many wounds that don't do damage? So if they're on a two up save you have zero rent, which is the left blue there Then one out of six gets through um So you can kind of see whenever you get then you move to a plus two save so you're Plus one ignoring your first trend plus three save plus one ignoring rent one and two So that this is just all kind of the groundwork for what we're going to talk in a little bit later But so then you multiply that out. So The second row is really looking at How many How much damage do you have to make them save against like wounds times damage? So let's say three three three saves at two damage each that would be six, right? So if I want to do one damage to somebody that's on a two up with zero rent I have to put six. I've got to get six damage through on average to do that right and it kind of You can see that all the way across and then the bottom one Is just ideas as an example if you've got 10 wounds if you're using no rent you need to get 60 Wound you have to hit hit and wound for 60 damage worth And assuming that they don't have a ward save or that you're not using mortal wounds or whatever But this is just kind of a basic you have to use 60 to get through that 10 wound character but what you'll start to see is With that's that's for a plus one to save but what you'll start to see is it starts getting ridiculous when you start looking at some of these Base three saves that we'll show you in a second. So that's kind of a primer there I think this is right, but I made it today. So Yep, math all look correct. Yeah, this is just kind of the base thing, right? The important part to understand here is the higher these saves go the more this six starts creeping out Right like down and over So like a three up save thing That has plus two to save Needs it takes six wounds again. We're assuming no re-rolls. No wards. No other things, right? So what that means is that if you're on a three up May save and you get plus two to save against neg one rend you're effectively ignoring that rend This is what we always talk about, right? Because then you still have to do six damage to get one through Right, and that's why we keep talking about neg one rend is not as valuable as it used to be because Almost anything important is going to be plus two save Most of the time right now the other thing I want to set the table for here real quick is in prep for the show Tyler and I were actually talking and we did a little review of how much neg three rend Is there in the game? Okay, because we always talk about like oh, you've just got to get some neg three rend and I was like Hold on a minute All right, how much actual neg three rend Is in the game? and the answer is Not a lot Okay, I'm guessing five or five percent Of a tax maybe oh god, it's not even close to that. It's it's definitely sub one percent Oh, really? Oh, yeah, I mean like now the son's army is an interesting exception Right because it almost every one of their people has neg three rend somewhere like either the death grip has it The gate breaker has it on his main big giant smasher club The little babies have it on their head butt, right? So like there's you know, there's a that army is a weird exception of actually quite a lot of neg three rend But a lot of neg three rend is existing on weird Monsters that aren't heroes that you probably weren't taking and happens to be on a wounds chart Like you understand saying they only have it and it's and it's like fives to wound or force force, you know Yeah, it'd be like So examples of this would be like the um The help hit abomination has a neg three rend attack The chimera has a neg three rend attack, but both of them are on wound charts, right? So they can lose that if they get wounded Right. Mm-hmm So um, and what we were looking for was like we started saying, okay Where is the neg three rend written on scroll and then where is the neg three rend where you can like Automatically trip into it. You know, I'm saying like you don't have to cast a spell or something that has interplay Like if it's a thing you can do where you just say that unit go Yeah, right Then we still counted it and the answer is some armies have none just zero Neg three rend it doesn't exist in in the force. Okay. I mean, I'm not talking to allies or anything I don't maybe that is a thing But in a lot of places it's like one scroll and it is often a sub optimal scroll Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There are notable exceptions So like iron jaws with the metal ripper if or if it still exists in three weeks Right as of right now um A state of kevin says keeper of secrets is rend three, right? It is not a state of kevin. It is not Kevin shalaxi is it's fine buddy. Yeah shalaxi has a single attack. This is the only neg three rend in slanesh Right, which is yes, you can get to neg three rend in slash Or sorry, the only neg three rend in slanesh is on shalaxi on her soul piercer attack, which is one attack Out of that thing. Wow Don't don't forget the neg five rend on old bolty. We didn't we absolutely thought considered that on a six to hit Yep, he's got he's got it on the six Um prince border. I has it. He's obviously a good one because he he's only on the charge But still border. I can get to neg three on the charge You know the um Aaron's got a good shout out here dirthu with date three per which we've talked a lot about With date three per yet one of the few examples of it in silvaneth, honestly like silvaneth is a pretty much Is basically bereft of neg three other than the day three per example, right? Yeah um And so like there's not a lot of neg three rend around now coach said but do those armies without rend three have Access to mortal wounds. I would guess they do. I wouldn't guess that coach I really wouldn't because rend three isn't distributed like that. It's not distributed in this sort of like obvious way Where it's like, oh, you're the high rend But more attacks people and you're the people who just can punch mortal wounds like sure some but not all my point is simply to say Neg three rend is pretty darn rare So when we look at that neg three rend line, it sometimes look like the situation isn't as bad But neg three rend is hen's teeth over here. Okay. It is not very common So that was just groundwork. It was important to to lay down Uh, I don't think lrl has anything past neg two. Uh, haiti severeth severeth's And severeth's bow is neg three rend as is altharion's. Yeah Yep, altharion also has it LRL does does damage. I thought they just only did mortals Exactly, that's an army that has almost no neg three rend, but does have plenty of mortals. So They're doing fine. They're doing fine. Yeah Uh, okay, so now we're talking about save stacking with normal units versus rend. So yeah, take us through through this one. Okay um So the first one Is all right. So the first one is really looking at Uh, so this is uh, like a something with the five up save six wound hero, you know Yep, your your standard crappy hero right buffing wizard Whatever hero. Yep. Isn't a slaughter priest five five up save six wounds. Isn't that what a slaughter priest is? I think so. Okay. Yeah, that's right um, so They're they're designed the game was built around them being squishy, right? They're a five up save And so, you know normal that first line is looking at normal So let's say you're doing a neg one rend against them It takes seven seven attack, you know seven damage needs to get to their save where they have to save against it For them to die their five wounds um, but you give them plus One save that goes to nine damage On the one neg one rend and you get them plus three save that goes to 12 damage. So now they're almost Twice as tanky is as they started out Still not The end of the world, you know, it's it's more but it it's something that you can chew through, right? Right. And so the the key with this let's I just want to reinforce this point When you can put a regular for this is like a bad hero Folks, okay, let's just be super clear here, right? Like this is a non defensive Utility hero on a five up save with six wounds. What's happening here mathematically Is that if you can push to Okay, the The plus one save where it's being retained over the rend right Then what happens is it doubles effectively, right the sort of amount of wounds. It's a very straight mathematical thing It's pretty obvious Right. So if there's also a ward in play in any way, suddenly you can take 14 16 wounds to bring down that that you know, normal hero right Yep okay So then the second one that we've got in the middle There is a regular three up save six wound hero. So more of a storm cast tanky tanky hero or You know Anywhere across the board. So when you they're looking at a three up Now let's look at that same example because I think neg one rend is probably more average what you tend to run into Instead of it taking 12 Damage to chew through their their saves It goes up to 18 with the plus one, which is a big significant thing But that goes to 36 with the plus three You know So or even if you're fighting them with something neg two rend right neg two rend should be like Really chewing through stuff. It goes from nine to an 18. So like doubles or triples their survivability And that's where I think you're starting to get into the realm of even something that's Should be easily killable You know six wound the three up save hero starts to turn into You've got to throw 600 points at them and a good good hammer to even kill that thing Now people will say mortal wounds. Yes, this isn't looking at mortal wounds. That's another part to the game and I think that's where we've Really the pendulum has gone too far in mortal wounds because they they're the answer to a lot of things Yeah, we don't want to make mortal wounds just the always out right because then all of a sudden the incentive is Going to be every they'll the only units that get taken are those that can do mortal wounds Armies that have more access to them become innately better They start propagating more wounds throughout the game and it's just like yeah, it just creates whack incentives, right left and right And and this is like the great example here. I've told the story before in previous weeks but you know my nomad hero and I Hosted the ever-chosen baron guard bouncing off of them Right because I save stacked him. It was just like yep The 600 point baron guard can't bring down my 100 point nomad prince What was the finest hour and all that defense or yeah, yeah, yeah, they were neg on rent, right? So, yeah, yeah All right, um, so then the third example here is looking at a normal battle line, right Four up save is kind of about average for a battle line There's some five up and three up about mixed but let's say four up save with 10 wounds Kind of the same thing against neg wonder in they go from Taken 15 to taken 30 15 to 20 which is a pretty big step up and then at like plus three they go to 30 or even if you're you know If you've got no rend it's not as big effect. That's why I kind of the The leaning now towards is what if with all the safe stacking why not do no rend or neg two rend neg one is kind of A little bit of a no man's land where it ends up not not being worth the extra point you have to pay for it All right, so then we're going to get on to the good stuff Let's get on to the good bad stuff the next slide Or any questions there talking points or no because now here's where we get into the real the real meat of it save stacking with god demigod units. Yes indeed So RK on you know I I in the monkey tournament. I fought him with Uh go trek I got into him. I was so excited. I got go trek into RK on I'm gonna kill our count. I'm gonna win this game He was on a uh plus three save sometimes sometimes plus four. He was rerolling ones And uh, he's got his normal mortal wound for you know for up ignore six up bounce back So here's what happened. So you talk they build the model around. Okay. Here's the normal You know if you want to kill this guy with Neg one rend. Let's look at the bottom there It takes 40 40 damage to get or your 40 damage to get through his 20 wounds You know, that's not undoable When you save stack to plus three Now that's 120 damage And don't forget he's healing about 15 times a game d3 So if you don't kill him and one one or two turns or double turn him and kill him He's gonna be at full health next time you fight him Yeah, and minimum you can kill is it is it automatic the from the mounts or does he have to roll the dice for the d3 He'll it's automatic from the mount. It's automatic. It's only It's automatic. So he's 2d3 than 1d3 than 2d3 than 1d3 than 2d3 than 1d3. Yeah, okay And so like You know so so and I ended up so then what I ran into is this third He was rerolling ones to save but I've also last night I watched a game where he was rerolling all saves to it's very easy It's just shield shield a fade like you're real. Yeah So rerolling ones are rerolling all saves Basically turns into the same thing when you're plus three because you're ignoring rent one and two And like you said almost nothing in the game has run three So do you see that number there six hundred and sixty six is how much damage you need to get through or Get through that that armor I think it's really 720 But anyway, I think I rounded one of the numbers up above but you know Unkillable that's that's that's what that is too regular damage And then that's not including that he's minus one to be hit or Real you know used to be real in sixes now now he's minus one to be hit or You know other stuff after you know Other ways that they can deal with damage. So that's one of the all let me I'll let me make chase this point here chase says The numbers need to be described more accurately. The number presented is the number of attacks that deal one damage each That's not the flat damage value needed. Yes. That's you're absolutely correct chase He's we're sort of assuming one damage attacks here Right, so this is a tax that you can multiply the attacks times the damage and it's kind of the same thing But yes Simplified, right? Yep. So yes the point is 600 700 Attacks dealing one damage or some combination of that amount of damage, right depending on the point is It's pretty simple math like one in 36 attacks gets through when you're on two of re-rolling ones, right? That's that's Very easy math And so it's 36 times 20, which is yes 720 is the number see I think it rounded funnily when you did out the excel But that doesn't matter It's insane Okay, like chase your your point of very fine wording is well taken but uh The the point is still the point still stands. We should never hit this number like it just isn't uh like it It's just unreasonable That something should be able to take 700 Attacks at rend two Okay for one damage and live Yeah, right that shouldn't be a thing yeah So so far of I'm 100 on board with some of these case specific examples that save stacking Is an utter nightmare And and we need to change And so it'll be interesting. We'll have to talk more about these generalized cases that paul you're getting into with your earlier slides Right with regard to save stacking. So I think the evidence is the evidence is abundantly clear it is An unacceptable problem that has to get addressed. But yeah with some of these specific examples with archon and I would actually put negash And some others At the top of the heap So anyway, yeah negash could reach these same numbers because he also has a re-roll ones to save right? Yeah So so he can actually achieve the same thing. Yeah Uh, yeah Go next one. I've got his go track everyone thinks like oh way to dice is how you get through go track I'm gonna send like you said in your last video. I sent like you sent 30 clan rats at him or Yeah, with like death frenzy and bonus to attack. Yeah, I did both I did both the clan rats and the zombies I put two different games back to back So so in this one I assumed best case where you're doing one damage each if you're fighting with a mega gargant or something Three damage six damage. He doesn't care about that at all So like this is best case If with no rend You need to get you need to get 71 Saves he needs to take 71 saves If if he's plus even just plus one to save Wow, and and if you've got neg two rend and He's plus one to save it's 35, but if he's plus three then that goes to 71 again And he's going to heal D3 Anytime that you damage him in the next hero phase if you don't kill him so I don't know he was just one of the outlier examples that I thought would be Yeah, I mean you really got to hit him with like super duper duper weight of dice All right, because again these are attacks that successfully hit and wounded So you have to resolve 71 50 attacks into him or how many saves does he had? Well, he had 22 Okay, he's not dead Exactly like sure it's going to happen like I'm sure there's somebody out there watching right now or who's going to watch Yeah, it happens going to be like oh, I put 30 attacks into him for somebody and he dropped dead because you know the dude Who rolled his ward saves was just like oh Oh beans I rolled all ones and twos like sure that happens. It's a dice game Right, but we're talking about sort of the modal averages here, right? That's the the point So Third example we've got here was that another one that I was interested in seeing what it looked like was mega gargant And this is assuming they don't have a five up after save But you know they go from look at that neg one rend again they go from 53 damage to 105 damage if you've got the mystic shield best day ever Um all defense going right There's just not a lot that can Give you that many saves worth. I mean they don't they take your you know, they're not like go trek He doesn't they don't ignore that Your rent your damage characteristic, but it's still a lot to chew through But that's that that's the dps check that we're talking every time we talk That is what it is. It says can you do If I have neg one rend can you do 70 damage Because that's what you need to do if you want to take them down and one One combat for right and that's just assuming they just use the plus one save like your traditional standard Fallout attack, right? Yeah, yep I think this is I think this math is so great poll because it really makes it real right when you see these kind of numbers here You're like, oh geez like when it makes the the wound translation into amount of successfully resolved attacks Right that deal damage. You're like, oh, yeah, okay. I see now, right Uh, and it's just like yeah the It it you know, it really does drive at home the kind of mathematical averages that that are existing right now because of the save stacking Right And because I think a lot of people go into fights and they think I should be able to kill this Yeah, and and it's on the fly. You're not going to be able to do the math But you know, it's it's something where it's like, uh, no, you're not going to kill that yep uh Okay Inquisitor said, uh, the damage reduction is a bigger thing on go track than save stacking all this go track in my last game versus Ironbreakers with plus one attack and a curse on go track. Yeah. I mean curse is one of his worst nightmares to nightmares to like high Volumes of attacks because then you cut out his save like curses But you still if you just do mortal wounds, you've got to do 24 mortal wounds on average to kill him right? Sure, I mean, yep combination it helps but Eight mortal wounds doesn't cut it. You know, I mean, oh, yeah, absolutely No, you've got to like hit him with a ton of attacks. Yeah, you're exactly right It's 24 mortal wounds But that becomes something that's doable, right? Especially when combined with a few of the normal attacks will sneak through so on and so And so yeah, like curse is a bad day for go track. No, no doubt about that um That it does like curse pretty dramatically take changes the math against go track if you if you're surrounding him with a um Without like a high volume of attacks unit, right? Yep. That's sort of his ultimate nightmare Okay, let's talk about future priorities. Here we go. Let's bring this home gentlemen all right That was great by the way. Paul. Thank you for for doing all of that. That was really fantastic and I loved it Because it's just when you look at that math and you're like, oh 700 damage. Sure easy Like that All right, go track. Let's talk about options. We could put him up 100 points. We could limit his healing Right. There's there's things we could do with this guy. We could get him out of hunters of the heartlands You could not let him re-roll hits Sure Like he gets to re-roll all hits all wounds so he can fish for the mortals on the sixes. Yep Yeah, that's the funny part about what he used to fight archaeon because archaeon made him re-roll sixes previously So the appropriate way to play it against archaeon was to literally roll all your dice and then go Yeah, none of those roll the whole thing again Can I just do my second roll because of my first roll? I don't right. Yeah, you just literally go I'm going to ignore your rule because I'm going to re-roll everything. I'm just rolling one time assume This is the second roll. Here we go. Yep Right, that's First roll didn't count straight in the second roll So, yeah, I mean what's what's what do you like as a solution for go track? Paul where where are you sitting? I think I think you you put them at like 550 to 580 points and People will the points kind of take you lose like a whole decent unit if you bring them from what you have right now So bring them up 100 points Uh, if you're going to limit his healing you better do it to everybody else. It's not fair to just Yeah, forget him if you're going to still let archaeon do He'll 20 times a game at d3 Yeah Yeah, I don't like the limit healing because to me that's an arbitrary incoherent choice. Why are we There's sort of a strange lack of her similitude, right? Like you understand why marathi can't heal because she's relying on the iron heart of kain, right? She has this magic eye and it creates that has tied her essence to immortality Right and so you could just sort of chip away at her before the heart gives way, right? Yeah Yeah, definitely take him out of hunters that should not be a thing And then yeah, I think paul you're right that, you know, he still seems reasonably attractive at 550 to me for what he can do in the game and Yeah, 530 550 somewhere in that range 535 80 580 might be a little too high for my taste, but yeah, I think those two changes I've been doing yeah, I'd say pulling from hunters definitely Um, I like I get the healing problem on him. It's certainly significant Um, I could so are you guys more worried about the hunters just where he doesn't get to do his Hunters lets him not get it roared because It's it's because he can go in hunters he'll get roared and like He's immune to roar and then hence he can always all out defense Which is always where you're all out defense because because normally I when I played him I didn't even all out defense him very much because You're not throwing 70 damage at me if you're not If I don't even need to do it unless you know, I'll say I'll spin it somewhere else I'll just heal sure three with the heroic recovery. So that was just my take I think it's weird that you can get in that but Yeah, give him a leader keyword that takes care of hunters. Absolutely Um, yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple different scroll changes you could do to him I'm not sure how much I love the limit healing for reasons you both said like it's it's weird I'm not sure what the versatility of it is. I'm sure we could construct something Right, like it could be like death seeker You know, he can he can't heal or he never heals more than one per per battle round or something like that Like I'm sure you could construct a fine enough narrative rule um I mean he is a slayer who's like sort of seeking after death kind of maybe I guess I don't know possibly So like maybe you could construct something around that. That's fine um But yeah, I think like his points should be like I said somewhere between 500 and 550 not to beat a dead horse, right? But it's it's clearly way too low now uh marathi 60 points up Allorial, I don't have it here, but allorial 30 points down That's that's all the way I I I cannot I cannot up marathi without lowering the cost of her sister Yeah I'd almost like to do to marathi would make it where She can only take Two damage a phase or something instead of a turn over the 40k thing I don't know how it works in 40k, but there are 40 there are 40k models that have the same basic rule as the iron heart of kane But theirs is all limited per phase Like the the um the satan in the in the negrons are like yeah Even even bumper bumper up to 20 wounds and then let her take two damage a phase or something that way She's still that lives about as long, but you have more chip damage you could do to her rather than just Her being an annoyance that you shouldn't even fight sometimes Yeah, and Playing her a lot. Yeah, I mean Benzino might take like a lot of armies have a way to chip damage her down And it's just you're on the clock and then You know are you as the doc player with her Doing your dentist to minimize taking the three in your turn because you can control that Yeah, are you are you retreating out most of the time? I don't know. I mean that's what I'm not sure Guess that you strategically play in it. See how how long you want her to survive, right? Yeah, yeah, there's you're picking at choosing your spots. You're not just outfilling with her round one Yeah, you're you're playing a longer game You're Focusing down a particular target for her to finish it off in the combat phase And then hopefully you don't have terrible dice rolls which can happen with her because you know relatively low number of dice So like yeah, there's these various things that you can do that you can make her Extra annoying that not everybody does but I think yeah in general my opinion is the simplest answer Is just to bump up her points. I don't think she should go up too much. Yeah 60 points seems pretty reasonable. So that'd be 720 Yeah, that that sounds about right to me. I mean people would love that number sure Okay, cool. Pearl the fox movement remove her from the enemy shooting phase done solved Yeah, like that's it. Yeah Easy Yep, agreed. Yeah, like it's just it's the easiest fix. Please stop this All right. Now, let's talk about the controversial one save stacking. That's a big question How do we fix this? right Well, I'm not I'm still not necessarily sold that we need to fix it. I again, I I'm 100 sold on case specific examples Arkya Nagash and so on The the generalized case, I mean, I think your data helps Paul to make a better case for it um I don't know guys like yeah, let's well, maybe we'll just I don't know if we want to get into trying to argue here Let's do this. Let's talk about what are the limits of this real quick, right? We've talked about the situations, but but it is important to talk about the other side of this this discussion, right? Yeah, so there is obviously a limit to how much you can save stack You can only all out defense once only one hero can be in best day ever and they you know, you can only do it once for hero Mystic shield Yeah, officially capped at one thing now some armies still have a lot of plus one saves They can swing around right like slaves of darkness. It's pretty egregious right now. Yeah, all right With Leviadon gives a plus one save bubble, right like there are there are items there, right? um and the The the you know, so like the question becomes Like so if you if you have the capability to engage Across their army like if you're fighting multiple points at once multiple units, it becomes very hard to protect uh, all of that Uh, and I'll come back to it. James treathers. I see you. Well, I'll come back to it. You're raising interesting points We'll come back to the box. That's all fine. You can raise your questions You can split your shots and yeah You can like shooting still like I never ran into save stacking that much as a problem until there ended up being just one unit I needed to remove and then it was like an unmovable problem Right and sometimes that is the case but like with all shooting army. I was just like Bang I would shoot one thing they'd use all at defense and I'd be like great now I target everything else in your army, right Anything that's not bonus Where and that's where neg one rend does still pay dividends right because when they're on normal saves This this came up. Tyler. You and I were talking I mentioned I watched re-rolling one's latest battle report which is like which was corn versus Phenetium, right? and they were You know, they were like fighting with Like a dozen units at once. Yeah, like there are whole armies that smashed into each other in the middle okay And so like save stacking was just not even present in that game Personally because one of the players was corn Right and so didn't have a lot of save stacking even as it was right. Yeah. Was was she involved too? Yeah, she was she was involved. He was playing Phenetium Obviously, but yeah, I know where that's going. She was involved. All right and so like The the point being is like in that case because they were fighting with just like their whole armies were all fighting at once Right, you just didn't see save stacking as a problem at all because it just it never came up There wasn't enough of it to go around everybody would like render was still applying as normal and life continued on in the game Felt completely reasonable Right in that case So I think there is this interesting but the but the reality is that's not often how a lot of play goes You're not often fighting with like 10 units at once. You know, yeah kind of a thing You are often trying to like what this this what save stacking is enabling Is sort of Death Star alpha strike type things like an Archeon or whatever right where you can kind of shove it down their throat and go You've got to deal with this now Right where you have one sort of present threat currently in their face. You might have other threats around Right, but it's it's sort of hard to get at um, I think part of the equation is the which factions armies can readily get mystic shield off reliably and which can't so again as a Zinch player, I'm probably going to be getting mystic shield off the most of the time onto Archeon if he's there As an iron jaws player Maybe never getting mystic shield off Except maybe a turn one if I'm going first and I'm outside of a bind range With my weird enough shaman on the backboards and then I put it on a cabbage for it to potentially alpha or just whatever But yeah, like at that point I I'll probably maybe never get mystic shield off in the game again So it's irrelevant Anyway, I think that you know, there's definitely inequities in terms of mystic shield It's not always going to be on and these models. Yeah. Yeah, and again This is very this is as we've said something is very inequitous between armies, right? Because something like slaves of darkness has a million different plus one saves They can give out on prayers and abilities and just crazy things like things that don't aren't hard to To activate and and require no, you know, like it'd be very hard to stop them from being presence Right because like I saw Bain in the chat said like oh, well when best day ever is on it blocks all other command abilities Maybe that's a solution. Well, sure, but a lot of people don't sure then you that stops all out of defense It doesn't stop mystic shield. It doesn't stop oracular visions. It doesn't stop A prayer from the war shrine. It doesn't stop like, you know, whatever whatever, right? The many other ways they have to get at that They didn't need to use command abilities for any of that. They still got to plus three or four, right? And again, that's not all armies, but it is a thing that exists, right? Sylvaneth is another one that has like a lot of plus ones actually Yeah, I think really. Yeah Like one of the and I feel like it's more of an experiment Than saying that this is the way it has to be but and like iron realms. I'm doing Plus one is what you get doesn't matter how many You can't stack more than one and so we'll see how that I think that that can affect list building and Can change the game but hopefully for the better, but I'm not sure that it's The best way to do it, but it's one way to to try I like to try to see how it goes Yeah, I think it's very fair to yeah, Paul give it a shot My concern is it goes too far particularly out of the gates And yeah, especially in relation to the shooting problem, which Bench you have here But maybe yeah, Bench you want to start going through these options? Well, yeah I actually want to set up the shooting problem first before we talk about solutions So the shooting problem is this a lot of people talk about the the problem of shooting in in in the meta And I'm not saying there aren't some shooting armies that are still like You know problematic like I played an all shooting tempest iron me that really like Was like shots shots shot shots shots, right? Like more shots than people ever thought possible um I like it's a number of shots that make ko cry and You know, but ko does still exist of like that. So I'm not going to say there's like no shooting problem in the game But what's interesting because I mean as long as sentinels exist. There's a shooting problem in the game But like but a lot of shooting is actually mitigated by what's going on With this various ability to respond with kind of different save stacking Because so much shooting that isn't the most offensive stuff I'm not saying that stuff isn't still a problem. It is But a lot of shooting is like neg one rent shooting and it used to be quite damaging But there's now quite a large ability to protect the unit. You didn't want to get shot Because you can you like you know what they're going to shoot So you mystic shield that unit and then they all out defense and then all of a sudden they're like They're much more resilient to that neg one rent shooting, right? They would have like take your stand take a just average four up war scroll unit or four save unit, right war scroll Previously neg one rent shooting would have done a lot of damage to them because they only would have negated a third of the woods But even turn one A lot of times They'll stay and cover and then mind it, you know, even if you're going even if you're trying to alpha shoot them They're never and they all out defense and now it's like, well, what's the point? I'm right. I don't have enough damage to kill that model Right, exactly. All of a sudden there on Uh, all of a sudden there they went from negating a third of the damage that was dealt to them to two-thirds of the damage dealt to them So ironically save stacking has to some degree except in the most egregious cases Limited the power of shooting Right, especially like neg one rent shooting Yeah So if we just like If we just blew open the doors and said the most you can ever get ever is always plus one Which I think it is an interesting experiment paul I'll be fascinated to see if my prediction comes true here in iron realms By the way, but don't forget iron realm gt Down in the chat or it's down in the description. Hit that up if you're near oklahoma. It is a tournament coming up You should go there. It's going to be super fun and paul is addressing save stacking So if you hit save stacking and you're in that area go check it out and see how it plays You know, I think that you do Reopen the door to some degree To that shooting being more powerful Now that being said, I think that if we actually had proper terrain rules Okay Where there was, you know more impassable line of sight walking. Yeah, exactly Yep, more hard line of sight blocking terrain and obscuring terrain and stuff like that Kind of the terrain pack that myself and rob from oswar gamer and tyler have talked about a lot in the past, right? If that was the real terrain pack we had Then I think you would then I would say great. We're we're solid I would have no problem suddenly pulling the throttle down to to plus one to save is where you kind of cap Right, because you then negating shooting would be a matter of play much like it is in 40k Right, they use a lot of the 40k formats use pretty terrain heavy boards And the way you negate shooting is you you use the board right you you like You do what you do which is don't go stand out in the open. So you get shot like You stand other places behind buildings and stuff and you like Force them to come to you or to move into positions where they have to sort of put themselves out there or whatever, right? So, yeah So let's get to options now. Okay um the uh The The options are like we could limit to plus one to save in all ways like you can just like everything you put on it Doesn't matter. It's just you got plus one. You got plus one. It's sort of a state based effect, right? You can that's kind of whatever we first read the rules That's kind of what we thought it might be when they were kind of sneaking it. They were giving us the previews Because I said something about oh, you know Plus one say I don't remember exactly what it was, but that's kind of what we were like. Oh, maybe that's the new way Yeah, yeah Plus two save you could you could if you think plus one is too strong You can say like, okay. Well, you can go to plus two and that's it, right? It never again like that's sort of the max you can push into Tyler one of the things you suggested was limit the save to never improve below Plus three unless it's already better in which case it can never improve at all Right. So like so ones and twos always go through right ones and twos always go through Yep, unless you're annihilators and then you got a tip save Yeah, if you're like annihilators or crag nosy and you're and on your scroll is written two up Then you get to keep that if you got a two up, but you did just stay there, right? I mean that certainly elevates the value of buckets of dice, you know as opposed to neg one rent So it's not really necessarily doing a whole lot on that front because it's still saying that you could stack Against rent. It's just that you can never get better than what your war scroll is And you can't ever push three up people to two up which is a Right and We've kind of also talked about it a little bit earlier, but We've got to like completely get rid of re-roll ones or re-roll saves Yeah, if we want yes, if we want if we want to keep save stacking, we got to get rid of that because that's Oh, yeah Yeah, I completely agree like I can't believe we kept any re-roll saves Maybe some of the re-roll is going to go away in in the white dwarf sites of darkness thing We'll see like diseases re-roll ones go away. I don't know um, but like because Unit isn't a big deal, but right there's way too many three ups. I'm sure Become two of them, right Yep, yeah See, I agree like the the re-roll problem is is real right now, right? It just it takes all of this and just exacerbates the heck out of it Yeah, like the fact that they didn't FAQ away shield of fate is just mind-boggling to me. All right, right so So yeah on on these options Let's see I'm concerned that just immediately going to plus one save periods. You've got mystic shield and find a sour Sorry, you just got plus one save that that might be going too far too quickly But maybe not I mean I it's the counter to that is it lets you spread it out Now you're plus one save on three different units instead of stacking it all on one. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's better, but Yeah That's that's interesting the plus two save in all the ways I do Where I wonder if that's not going far enough actually in that I mean it's and it Right. It depends on if it's on a three up or on a five up. Yeah character, you know save character Yeah, it's like how how big of a difference is that cutting out the plus three? And allowing the plus two Like it is that the real Gap that we do need to To cross here just cutting out that plus three Actually, maybe let's drill in on that a little bit So we've talked a lot about. Yeah, these three plus save Finest hour mystic shield of all that defense boom now again, you're not or other ways to get it Sylvan f tla true of the ancients. Can you even get to four? Yeah, yeah, there's ways to get to yeah, even plus four and some armies So cutting out the plus three and plus four Is that going far enough? What do you think paul? Just limiting to plus two. I think it's I think I would take it as a step in the right direction and you know That way they're not completely they're not because it does like you said it makes finest hour all out defense and You know mystic shield one of our kind of all all all get worse because you can't stack it but If I was to pick between the three I'm kind of leaning towards your third one about you know, at least ones and twos get through at least You know, I mean, yeah, and then stuff that's already on a two up you know They can't ignore rend basically they go back to three, you know, the rend goods gets through and they're at three up At least instead of it being like whatever 83 saved you're at 66 It does it does. I think tyler's right. It does change the incentive structure such that you are incentivized toward buckets of dice Right because like low numbers of high damage attacks You have a very high chance of that not to go through At all whereas buckets of dice yield the law of large numbers will start to come into effect And you'll get a third of your damage through right like the math gets real swingy if you have four If you have sort of four hit, you know four potential things to save against on a three up It's very easy for that to become zero It's also potentially possible for it to become like all four of them go through of course But right be to become it's very it's a very swingy result Whereas all of a sudden if you're if you have you know, 80 You're saving against or whatever because you're you're getting shot at by bone splitters or something Right. It's like well a third of this is just mathematically going through right Yeah You know, there's other options we could get that are more crazy By the vibe that aren't systematic changes. Okay, and people have been talking about some of them in the chat so for example A lot of these instead of just like they that we inserted all this plus one to save into the game Or sorry. Yeah, plus want to save through an FAQ, right? That's what inserted all this in here Yeah, when we went back in the first FAQ and just said shove it all in there The core rules has a little bit of it obviously through mystic shield best day ever all on defense, right? But a lot of it a lot of the other stuff got shoved Yeah, you see I'm saying like regular visions and yada yada yada, right? Yeah We could just make all those things reduce rend by one Because then you know, you could reduce rend by a million It still caps at a zero Right. You understand I'm saying they get you back to your base save which is kind of what the war scroll was built around Right kind of what the points were designed around was what's your base save? Right. So then like people who are on a three up if everything just said reduce rend by one instead of Uh, actually increasing the save Then archaeon couldn't get better than a three up Right imagine if everything that said plus one to save right now just said reduce rend by one Okay, archaeon's still rolling around at best on a three up right But that still goes back to the uh, the buckets of dice Sure, what ends up getting through that 100 true, right? And nicolas that is part of the problem that I have with yeah a lot of these as well Is that they are a little clunky and in elegance whereas like the plus one save has the benefit of it's the simplest clearest most elegant I right because it would just be the one that's suddenly like Aligned with the plus one to hit and plus one to wound sort of thing Yeah, it would feel very safe. It would feel similar in some way Yeah, although in that case that's not true either you can stack plus four to hit and counter out negatives to penalties Those are still there. They're just not as we just didn't like poop those all over the game in the same way Right. Yeah, you could also change all of these plus one to save things to a six up word Which does not sec Right and then it would effectively like Just kind of yeah, it's going to reduce a six everyone a six up word Everyone would just be rolling around with six up wards all the time It would be a lot more rolling for not a lot of effect Right, that's a problem. Like you'd be rolling a lot of dice and not pulling many out Like oh, I took 20 wounds got through hold on. I got 21. I got to roll 20 dice again Right and of that like I'm going to negate three wounds on average Uh that it would have problems with how it already then works with like a lot more armies would suddenly Be very bad at taking advantage of that Right, like doc and knight ha everything death effectively, right? Like all those armies are suddenly like wow this what a useful. What a useless set of rules. You just handed me Yeah So suddenly all of those rules just do nothing the knight haunt problem expands like times a million So or you go or you go back completely switch to the re-roll ones and not pluses But I don't know that's the right That's what it was in two point. I was originally I think they were leaning towards re-roll wants to save rather than right Pluses, yeah Yeah, the other option is you just go through and cut a lot of these out of the game Like you could you could be systematically targeting about there Sorry strategically targeting about these right instead of trying to do a broad sweeping change Like we could just go in and make them like neg one to hits instead of plus Yeah, you just go in and rewrite a bunch of them into different effects Right, you could also go that direction and kind of limit like okay the three plus ones in the game are all out defense best day ever and Mystic shield and that's it Right that that literally becomes like the three plus ones in the game And so suddenly it's way more tightly controlled Yeah, one of the things they said in the chat that I liked the idea was mystic shield changing to the a sick support Sure, so like that way there's one less One less that you can stack that's available to everybody and The word save is now available to some armies that don't have it Yeah so I think there's a lot of options here and my answer is it they should be looking at ways to solve this Because I think it is a challenge right because of these are so inequitously distributed I just think there is a real challenge here Like Yes, is it always a challenge to your point Tyler? No But when it creeps up, it's sure the heck is a big one Yeah Yeah, that's what i'm struggling with is that i'm just not yet convinced that there is A clear and evident generalized case For a change with safe stacking, but i'm 100 convinced there are Meaningful multiple examples that are case specific We've talked about some that are really damaging to the game the ecosystem. It's actually right now the play experience Arche on a gash at the top of the list, but there are others And you know, I've given various anecdotal stories We all have anecdotal stories of you know, my events I told you three cabbage a cabbage surviving three stone horns that that should never happen I mean that's very realistic right like that's anything that's just relying on mass damage with like neg one or neg two rend It's it's not going to be weird for that thing to just live Sure Yeah, right. Like if you see it coming as you often do you just You just turtle up and it's like okay sure attack me with everything Yeah, I'm leaning more and more towards Make all out defense make that plus one save make mystic shield a six step after save and make a best day ever minus one to be hit And now you split you split those into three different things that all can buff you but not to where you have to do 720 damage to kill you sure sure It's interesting There are multiple other ways to some armies have I guess that's the downside is that there are still armies that could plus three to save Yeah, sure. I mean again We've got an on FAQ this or get new tomes out or whatever and somebody said how much is this a problem new tomes? Will this just be fixed with new tomes? Maybe maybe not I have no idea but I can tell you given our current rate It's going to be 2023 before you have like half the tones in the game is replaced So we'll be a year away from launching aos 4.0 by the time we get most of the before we tick the 50% mark over right So that's like that's not a quick fix Um Okay, let's uh, I want to bring this to a close here somewhat soon But I want to take discuss a couple things real quick cogs affects only one wizard Done limited to one Easy it's a cheap end the spell. It's 45 points. It's plus one to cast How much does it generally cast to go from one cast wizard to a two cast wizard? Why it's about 40 to 50 points? Hey, what a weird thing that 45 would be right in the middle of that Yeah, there we go. Does that still get taken sure sometimes? I don't care if it doesn't I don't care plenty of endless spells don't get taken and nobody seems to have a problem with that. So whatever Uh, I want to return to the fox real quick for jason's to others because I haven't forgotten you jason Somebody said they are kind of still danger close should they just not be able to skirmish And my answer is they shouldn't be able to skirmish like that and just be immune to melee. Okay Their shot is still 18 inches. That's still a perfectly reasonable shooting range There's a lot of shots in the game that are much shorter range and people have to be a lot more danger close If at the end of the shooting phase they moved like a d6 inches or something right the enemy shooting phase They could just kind of float around with sort of a redeploy With a d6 fine if you want to give them a little bit of extra cushion But like yes, it means you have to use that piece more carefully, right? Like that's my argument the fact that they can just flat move literally the entire charge distance away is the problem So that is what needs to go away. Are there other fixes or half measures we could take sure I got a lot but like 18 inches Man, I just played a whole army with a lot of 18 and shooting that I had to move up there I didn't have the ability to just leave Right like I had an army where most of my stuff wanted to be at 12 inches Okay so like You know, I wasn't I wasn't you know, a lot of those units didn't put out severeth level damage by the buy Uh, so that would be my argument, right? Like I don't have a problem with a sort of skirmishy play style But that shouldn't just mean you get to like ignore enemy Movement Um aos coached it. How do you feel about manfred given? He's also anti combat for the most part Uh, I think his rule like I didn't mention him here, but I think his rule should be exactly the same Uh, like it should be limited to one combat phase or something The fact that that dude never fights in melee unless he wants to is is weird Um, like it's quite really strong. Yeah, like he's I I don't know what to think about him except to say that that ability is stupid And if you haven't played against it like again, it's so weird because if you just have a whole shooting army And you can just like level the guns at him He dies and okay great I mean unless he saves stacks himself in which case he will be immortal too because he's a base three up, dude But like a couple of turns of shooting at him you will bring him down But he's he's really tough and he just Can't ever die to combat if he doesn't want to yeah, he's a weird piece I don't know what to think about him except to say like He's possibly a problem, but I I don't know So yeah Okay, and that's it. That's the end any final points gentlemen. I do want to wrap this up We went a while there. Yeah Yeah, I think definitely more conversation around this whole safe stacking issue, you know, personally, I'm still not convinced for whatever it's worth Again with the generalized case for it very convinced for the specific cases Where does how does that wash out though? Like trying to fix Archeon and and so on and so forth, but not Changing it in general. I don't know. I'm very conflicted about it. It hasn't been a huge problem To me In the 30 plus games that I played there have been some specific very odd Experiences though But you know in a small number of games which I've given some stories of and I'm sure we all have stories It is clearly something that Is bothering a lot of people about 3.0 And but it it's just I find it quite complicated and very worried about unintended consequences particularly when we are in a Meta that's in my opinion the healthiest that it's ever been in the game with the with still incredible variety like Lot of monsters are playable heroes are playable big units are playable ms. Use every that everything's playable right now and so I don't know guys like I I get it, but I'm just not quite sold And I'm not really seeing any clear direction From a generalized standpoint on how to on how to address this. That's fair. Yeah, so Paul I'll give you the final word. I just want to say this I think the game is still in a great place you look at the results people are winning all over the place It is still a game that's largely one on objectives not killing stuff Objectives and battle tax and not the tactics and not just killing stuff, right? So we need to make sure we keep this problem in in these problems within Sort of the box that they belong in right we do have a wide swath of armies all placing in top tens We actually have the most healthy meta we've ever had That being said that doesn't mean we shouldn't still be seeking to improve stuff Of course, we all agree with that. Sure, but But I do think we need to acknowledge that that is the case. Will that persist? I don't know. We'll see. I hope so. I you know, it'll be interesting to watch how it plays out So, yeah, I think that the game isn't a good place I think we can get to better And I think we as like I'd love to see them roll back some of the nonsense and fix some of the mistakes from the FAQ from the wrong call section Like one of the things that really gets me is these a lot of these have become proud nails Like we have a really smooth deck now But there's a couple proud nails sticking up out of it and they're really obvious Right, so as things have become a little more controlled and the fields become wider, which is great The things that stand up those tall poppies are really Uh, you know, they're really sort of obvious, right? Um, so Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at Paul, what's your final thought before we call it a night? Um, I kind of the same same place that you are I think overall that we're in a pretty good spot for the game. We just are trying to make it better Trying to deal with some of the Things that are the most agrees, you know Not fun to play against I think safe sacking can be one of those things as well as everything else on this list So, uh We're But we'll keep keep it going, you know get our games in we'll we'll see how it goes But I do like that there's lots armies doing well and I like that the Hopefully the battle tactic change won't won't turn everything upside down to We all hope for that. We all hope for that All right for all of you out there watching. Hey, if you liked this Give it a like if you disagree with our list comment down below. Tell us what you think Uh, but hit that like button. We really appreciate it helps other people find the show I yet again have managed to make it three and a half hours into a show without saying hit the like button So I appreciate that. Thank you to everybody who did if you're still watching, please click like it's so nice It's so easy and it helps other people find it. Uh, subscribe if you haven't already of course as always Thank you paul pleasure having you on brother. Thank you for doing all that work with the cool charts Tyler as always a pleasure all of you out there. Thank you for joining us and as always We'll see you next wednesday Thank you