 This time we have much more time, so from our side I think we can take it till midnight or even after that, so whatever questions are there you can be sure that we will listen to them and say something. Again, let's first take up, we are trying to take up those questions which were asked in the last meeting, but then we hadn't addressed the things like who are our scientists, who are backing us up and other questions, so I presume that lots of the questions which you might have on your list may already be answered in the first part and after that, anyway then we have enough time, Slava will want to organize it a little bit differently the speaking, but that he will tell you then. So you may or may not know this quote of the mother, it has been decided and remains decided that the matrimandir will be surrounded with water and this is a very interesting quotation because it shows that already at that time in the early time 65 there was the discussion about the lake and there were people who were in favor of it and against and the mother put her foot down and said it's decided now and it will remain decided, so that also gives us the feeling that there is no question yes or no for the lake, there may be some small details which we can discuss, but the mother has so clearly said it's decided and will remain decided, so the question yes or no doesn't arise at all for us. Now a few words to Polyethylene, Polyethylene that is the material of which the foil is made for the lake and it's one of the purest materials you can imagine, it contains only of carbon and hydrogen nothing else, there is no aluminium inside, no chlorine, nothing, no nitrogen, so this means that there is also no leverage for any acid or any chemicals to break up the polymer, so that's why it is so stable and that's why in Germany by law for garbage fields the producer has to give a guarantee of 100 years and even after 100 years it's still okay, so you can't compare Polyethylene to other plastics which contain all kinds of stuff and it is licensed everywhere for food containers and everything. Now there is the difference of high density Polyethylene and low density Polyethylene, the high density Polyethylene is just linear, you just have single carbon hydrogen chains while the low density is branched, so it has less specific weight and it's not as strong, we have given you all for just to feel once how it is a piece of this high density Polyethylene, we are using 2mm thickness right now, but inside our main specialist has proposed maybe we could even use 2.5mm which will be then even still much stronger. Next, so let's look at the question which again and again comes, if there would be a hole then what would be our remedy for that. Now the soil or the sealant is structured in four layers, first on top of the underground we have a geofabric here, a white geofabric which will be put on the red soil, for the first stretch we had taken 400g per square meter, then on top of the geofabric comes the foil, the polyethylene here, next picture, then on top of the polyethylene comes again a geofabric which is a mat, there we have taken a relatively thick one, 1200g per square meter, here you see the whole first lake section foil with geofabric and then on top of that next, we have a 30cm layer of granite chips and on top of that this is distributing the load so well that on top of that you can even go with a caterpillar or an excavator or you can drive with a car, it doesn't matter, it distributes the load so well, so these four are the layers, then now let us say, which is very unlikely but let us say there would be a protrusion, there would be a stone which would make a hole in the Htpe foil, then on top of these granite chips there will be some sediments settling and being on top, are there people here who are diving actually, is there, okay, that's all, so we are the only two divers here, okay, so if you have been diving in a sweet water lake, next picture, you will see that these sediments over the ground, they are not solid, it's not that they fall down and then you have, let's say, red earth, they are like a pulp and then it will get thinner, thinner, thinner and it will form kind of like a sauce or something and then you have really like a layer where the sediments stop, like you see here in this thing, mostly when one dives, one dives either in the open sea there, it's totally different or in lakes which have a rocky underground but if there are some sediments you have that type of sauce on top of the ground and if there would be a hole somewhere where the water would flow out, you would immediately see it, you would see like a fennel where the water is sucked in, so by inspecting the ground of the lake you can easily detect where is a hole, it would be different if there would be an underwater plantation if all is full of plants then it's difficult to detect a hole but in 10 meter depth where there is not enough light for plants to grow, it will be very easy to detect a leakage, if one wouldn't detect it and it leaks for a long time then there is a danger that where the water goes through the foil it forms a cavity below, it goes then down in the aquifer and if that cavity gets bigger and bigger and bigger and forms a big hollow space below the foil then the foil may break and then of course you have a major damage but if you detect the leakage early then it's relatively easy to repair but it doesn't really happen very often when I was talking to Mark Meissner the engineer of Laue, of Laue they don't even have a fixed procedure to fix holes because it practically never happens but silicone is actually bonding very well to HTPE, next picture and silicone also has the advantage that it's not afraid of water, water actually is one part which is required for silicone to bond, many silicones are humidity bonding silicones and if you take an HTPE plate and put a thick layer of 100% silicone on top and would press it on a hole and then let it cure maybe here you could put even a stone then on top of the plate then it would bond, it would close a small hole perfectly well. Now we have quite a bit of experience with silicone, the Matrimandier contains two and a half million gold tiles which have been glued with silicone and we have done at that time our homework quite well we had made accelerated weathering tests with this material structural glazing where we simulated 100 years of exposure in one and a half years having it in an institute in Rosenheim in the accelerated weathering cupboard and still the bonding was so strong that rather the glass tile broke than the silicone coming off and if you see that from two and a half million gold tiles not a single one has fallen off from the Matrimandier you may assess how well we did our homework that imagine a building with two and a half millimeter tile at two and a half million tiles and in 20 years not a single one has come off so I think you can trust us that when we envisage a technical solution that it will also hold now for next picture there are even companies which are specialized in glue underwater glues for swimming pools and all that so for example here in Germany this TPH is a company they even have special products for underwater gluing so to repair a hole a small hole in the lake is not a big problem to detect it we had in the early stages even in the early building applications which we had sent to TDC I think we had proposed a system of humidity sensors where you have all cables below the lake foil with humidity sensors and then if there would be a leakage you get an alarm but these are difficult to maintain if a mouse bites through a cable then it's gone there are other methods like you have a kind of a drainage where you collect the water in a slump and then you see if some water collects but all this is actually quite outdated today you can have even remote sensing from drones there are such sensitive methods I know somebody who sells software where via satellite lights you can assess the thickness of a pebble layer for underground for people who make big ponds where they dig out pebbles so with remote sensing today you can find out everything so one could even with remote sensing with drones you could see if the humidity on the side of the lake would change but the simplest way of course is instead of investing a lot in in detection leak detection systems if he just would make the foil half a millimeter thicker and would increase the geofabric below from 400 gram to maybe 1000 or 1200 gram per square meter then it's practically impossible that anything protrudes this thing so the question of of a small hole is actually not such a big thing but we will approach Zika Kimi that's a company in Switzerland from who is actually manufacturing the structural glazing which we have used for gluing the tiles and we are still very good customers of them next here you see a picture where a company of ours golden glass has made some temple roofs we just last month finished that subject where we made some roofs for a Shiba temple in the Himalayas Nirishikesh and we are still importing quite a good quantity of silicone from Zika Kimi so if we tell them we want them to make a specific special research on what material would bond HDP I think they will do it now two three words to golden glass because next picture because golden glass is one of the companies like Aditi diamonds or Varuna which is quite involved also in Orville without many people knowing it for example the land of the desalination plant is in the name of golden glass the triangle is in the name of golden glass all these crystals in the garden of existence and many materials have been imported by golden glass and then been donated to matrimandia we still make sometimes spare discs for matrimandia which they give to donors all this is done in golden glass it's in the metropolis industrial estate next picture okay so next one now let's look at the technical people who are supporting us LGA the Landesgewehrbeanstalt Nürnberg is I think the most reputed scientific institute in Germany it has around 2000 scientists and since the late 90s we have actually solved all the technical issues of matrimandia in Germany many of them with the scientists of LGA that means you can hire a scientist you you have a certain question in a certain field you go there you identify the scientist and then you pay I don't know 250 300 euro per hour and he works out the solution for you for example the waterproofing of matrimandia had been designed by LGA and the lake they have accompanied since the first day when we started planning with harald crafts proposal and all that these two Carlos Schillinger and Jochen Köhler they have been quite a number of times here in Orwell and we have done number of research projects regarding the lake Carlos Schillinger is a geologist Jochen Köhler is also a geologist but specialized in underwater biology so all our and they have been doing the biggest water projects in Germany for example next picture the Brombach lake which is a lake I think which has 18 square kilometer area it's an artificial lake they have done the Rhein-Main water channel which connects the North Sea to the Black Sea via the Danube the mine and the Rhine so they really know about how to go about artificial water bodies and each question what we have we have regular meetings where Dirk who was in Orwell living in Orwell for a long time and who now and then comes also who is a water engineer then Harald Kraft who is a water engineer Carlo and Jochen and myself we regularly meet in Nürnberg if necessary we have a video conference with our specialists or whatever and then we discuss the issues whatever it is and we take our decisions regarding the lake construction so scientist wise or backup we are I think quite well equipped much more than what might be even necessary and at the spot that is Said from now who is doing the foiling so nothing is just done into the blue without us really studying every detail and and we are being accompanied so I think you should have some confidence that what we do there is not just some nonsense but we will deliver a perfect product but I must say it requires that you then let us do our job if everybody comes and he wants to have this and he wants to have that and that one wants to have another and that one wants to have a tree here and that one has wants to have a bush there and that one those fish and that one that then we can't do our job but if we can do what we think is right I think the product which we will deliver will be quite nice next now let's look at the research which we have done in the first section of the lake there are three groups of questions what we had the most important one of course is can we do it at all is it feasible all like building it in sections with Lego block walls how we can handle the htpe foil all these things one main argument of those people who were against the lake or who were against us building the lake was always that it's too bigger project it's impossible for our will to do it now when we are doing it it looks that there's nothing like that it's just flows and it's not at all impossible but this was of course one big question is it possible to have such a first class according to the most modern technology and with a depth of 10 meters is it possible to do a water storage lake here in in Orville or not the other group of questions is of course technical questions like how to repair a whole underwater biology how to control algae growth and all that and the third big research part was is it feasible to do water harvesting with a water storage compared to desalination that was always the big question because in an area like ours where the most of the rain comes down in the monsoon time in six to eight weeks and then you have to store the water maybe till the next summer if you want to use it then the most costliest part of such an arrangement is the storage facility and in the traditional way that you have underground tanks let's say the underground tank below matrimandia which is just a concrete tank storage of one cubic meter will cost you something like 10 000 rupees or so and then it becomes absolutely unfeasible if you can desalinate a cubic meter of water for 50 rupees or 30 rupees and storage facility for water harvesting costs you per cubic meter 10 000 rupees then it makes absolutely no sense also from the environmental point of view if you make big concrete storages concrete is one of the most aggressive polluters in terms of carbon dioxide so there has to be another way and so the question is water harvesting feasible from the economic point of view from the ecological point of view compared to desalination that was one big question and there the situation looks like that now after having finished the first section of the lake we have a fairly clear picture what the whole lake will cost most of the expenses we have already behind us these are the two big lego block walls and then of course excavation and foiling that means we have purchased the excavators we have purchased lorries we have purchased sheep foot roller compactors and so on and now the rest is actually foiling and excavation the lego blocks walls we will use again and again they are movable so we'll take out one put it in the next then flood it then take out the wall and put it in the next so we know what the whole lake will cost it will cost us approximately 70 crores and we can use that is also a very relevant question we can use each cubic meter of storage approximately 1.4 times that means it's not that only in the monsoon we'll fill it up and then we have to store the water till the next monsoon but to our great surprise even the summer monsoon brought this year a lot of water in and we actually had quite miscalculated the height of our walls because we were not expecting that the evaporation is so little and the recharge from the summer monsoon is so strong so in the end we had to pump out nearly 80 centimeter water just into the meadow because we had expected that the water level before the next monsoon will only be maximum four and a half to five meter but it was then it showed that it was much more so actually you can utilize one cubic meter of storage volume approximately 1.4 times and so if you calculate then the costs for a period of 10 years that you say okay how much is one cubic meter storage costing us if you write off the installation costs of the lake over 10 years then you come to approximately 50 rupee per cubic meter compared and the running cost of of a storage is negligible let's say three rupees per cubic meter so the cost for one cubic meter storage of runoff water will come to 53 to 55 rupees in desalination it is that the operating costs of the plant that means mostly electricity will come to around 20 rupees per cubic meter and the installation cost of the plant will come to around 30 rupees so it's comparable it's more or less the same the storage of runoff harvested water comes to the same price of the creation of desalinated water now desalinated water has in areas where near the coast of course advantages because the runoff water if you harvest and store is not drinking water it's water which you can use for irrigation or you have to purify it further to make it into drinking water while the desalinated water is already pure drinking water and then one has to think also that the whole collection system for the runoff water will also cost a lot of money but in a city like Orville which after some time 30 percent of the areas will be sealed whether roads or places or roofs you have to do something in any case with the runoff water you cannot just let it do what it wants to do so for a coastal area desalinated water has some advantages but then if you go 50 or 100 kilometers inside the countryside then of course desalination is no more feasible because the transport of the desalinated water will cost too much but this was one of the major questions which we had to compare water harvesting with desalination and my opinion in that thing also changed before this experiment I was thinking that water harvesting stands nowhere compared to desalination but now I see that it's actually desal... runoff water harvesting also makes sense especially if it's not directly at the coastline but here the research actually is done so if we would now wait and let the first section of the lake remain for a year or two or three we wouldn't gain any further information from that this part of the research is over the other part with is it doable or not also with the first completion of the first part of the section is finished we had a lot of challenges and problems even to procure all the material for example the long arm excavator it was such a hustle to get that long arm we paid it in advance then it would never come and all that but okay all the machinery now is in place we know how to slope the shores we know how to compact the underground we know how to put the foil so that part of research also is over which was of course a test in the sense that if you would not have managed to build the first part of the lake then of course it would have been a problem to build finish the whole lake but now after the first part is successfully finished that type of research also is done and the third part let's see are there some more questions yeah the third part also okay let's quickly go through the questions so cost comparison between desalination plant and water harvesting we have already spoken about next at what ratio we can utilize our storage it is around 1.4 cubic meter per cubic meter storage next how easy or difficult it is to install an open water body with hdpe foil that also was of course one of the questions which we had but this we are absolutely fine now I think we have acquired the capacity to do that next how to handle htpe foil and there still side is required it takes a lot of you need a lot of experience to really handle it a few years maybe to to work with it but I think at the end when the lake is finished we will have a team which is experienced enough to construct other open water bodies with htpe foil in our will or in the area or wherever here you see we are doing it mostly in the night because during the daytime from the sun the htpe foil gets very hot 70 80 degrees and then you can't seal it anymore next now one very big part of it is the temporary walls made out of legal blocks we had to first learn how to make legal blocks get the molds made get a big mixer in place but now it goes quite smooth to erect a wall also with equipment with our big excavator with a long arm and we can build the lake in sections that means now as you all know we have two legal block walls in which the first part is which is filled now then we make a third legal wall 200 meters further then we flooded that means we let the water go in so it distributes in both the parts we take out all the legal blocks from the middle use that as the next wall and the next wall and then we have the foundations on which the legal blocks are standing they will remain we won't take them out and that will give us the possibility that later on if we want to change something let's say zero we want to we first make the whole lake finished then if zero which is supposed to come inside the lake a little bit we want to do that part we put the two walls in this section back we waterproof it again then we pump out the water from there into the other part of the lake and because the area the surface area is much wider than the bottom if we pump out from one part the water to the rest of the lake the water level in the rest of the lake will rise only maybe 60 centimeter so we don't lose any water if you want to do a major change or a major repair or we want to change something in the shoreline or whatever we can put back the legal block walls we foil it we waterproof it we take out the water we do our change and then we flood it again we take out the legal blocks so that gives us the possibility to change whatever we want even after 10 20 30 years in the lake without emptying all the water and without the matrimandial lake losing its function because it will have a very important function for oral for the oral water system distribution system and most probably also for the electricity system so the function of the lake also has to be secured not that it's only decorative problem that all of a sudden the lake is without water but the function of the lake also has to be kept and with these department walls which I think we have mastered quite well we are in the position to make any change in the lake whatever without disturbing the whole water body next this is what we were just talking about next now one big question where we had heated discussions also amongst our scientists where Harald Kraft always was pleading to have a 10 meter deep water body and the scientists said that it's better you make the water body so shallow that from everywhere still plants will grow because the plants will produce oxygen and all the area below 5 meter is counterproductive for the oxygen household of the water this this question of course is a very very tricky question and we see now already that sometime Jan recently has measured the oxygen content in the lake on some days when it's cloudy it looks that it's double then on a day where it's sunny and it gets hot so there there we still will see a development but the final equilibrium and and our final knowledge can be there only when it's finished and when it's a full circle and we we have a current unfortunately we cannot make now a study how the current which I think will develop how it will come about because right now we have the big hill at the side where we have the small lake on top and that shields off that part where afterwards the wind will touch the surface otherwise we would have installed maybe some weather station all around the lake and seeing how strong is the wind at which point and from there you can then make a dynamic model and see what would be the current flow but it's not possible because the area now is not what it will be in future but here also if we don't do what the scientists tell us and we have I don't know peninsulas with trees where all the leaves will fall in the lake then you cannot maintain a good water quality the parameters for the water quality is mainly two things number one is the biomass intrusion if you have a lot of leaves falling in or other things and you have a lot of nitrates and nitrates in the lake then it's very difficult to maintain a good water quality the positive factors are the bigger the surface area is the more wave formation you get and more oxygen intrusion through wind is coming in so this is always these two counterparts you can of course try to increase the oxygen level with the fontane which you see sometimes in lakes and and there are all kinds of stuff but the research for this also would not give us any additional knowledge if we keep the first section of the lake now as it is because even from one day to the other the oxygen level changes and definitely with the next section where we have doubled the area we have totally different situation again and when it's completely finished we have again a different situation and if we sit and look at this lake now for a year or two or three we are not wiser after three years so here still of course a development will come you can do something also by consciously choosing the species of fish and and other animals inside the lake next algae growth is the same situation there are miles of bookshelves filled with books on this subject here also we will have to see where it goes we have to see which algae finally grow then we have to study what we could do to counteract if it gets out of control but this is also something where we don't gain gain much more knowledge now if we sit for three years and look at it next the hole we have already discussed detecting leakage also we have discussed now the additional functions for a water storage system I was very surprised to hear when Jan told me that there seems to be some kind of strange feeling about our underwater cushion in the matrimandial lake with some of the community members the mother was not at all against the matrimandial lake fulfilling a very practical role Roger had told the mother we'll have a quotation at the end of the presentation Roger had told the mother his idea of what practical function the matrimandial lake could have by saying that the water could flow down from the lake into the communities then it could be purified at some purification plant at the outskirts and from there it could be pumped where it is required for irrigation and all and the mother was quite positive about that and reported that told that to Sat Prem so the mother was not at all of this opinion that this is a holy lake and should be only for decorative purposes not at all and we were all with thinking what practical functions could the matrimandial lake have for the community and now right now we see two additional functions one is the storage of drinking water in the underwater cushion the cushions anyway will not at all be visible there will be five meters below the lake surface and we could store up to half a million cubic meter of drinking water in the matrimandial lake without anybody noticing anything and it was always a big question for us once the desalination plant is up and running should we really just pump it into the lake and mix it with a dirty run of water while it is such a valuable asset pure drinking water and by separating it and using the underwater cushions we have solved this problem and the matrimandial lake can store drinking water for the community which now itself is the first cushion which we are thinking it down the next few days we will first use it for matrimandial internal purposes because the matrimandia underground water tank and all that is not big enough to contain enough water for the air condition the cooling for the air condition and irrigation in some times of the summer so we can use the first cushion for matrimandia which will be very helpful and then the next one we will connect Luka will connect to the water system of Auroville where they were thinking of building additional tanks which now they won't because we can use the underwater cushions at matrimandia so the water cushions that is one interesting additional function for the matrimandial lake the other one is the hydropower storage where we have a small we had in the first meeting you have seen we have built a small hill we have ordered the turbine now we are now enlarging that small lake on that earth heap which is 15 meter high we make it three times the size and we are aiming let's see if we come to that point we are aiming that we are we can store there enough electricity from the solar plant that we can enlarge the solar plant of matrimandia to a size where matrimandia can run all its electrical equipment from its own solar plant and from the stored energy in the mini lake on top of the hill we could then if we succeed we let's see run matrimandia ideally in an island mode so that it's supported by its own solar energy now for the whole of Auroville this hydropower storage has a much bigger relevance the next step would be when we have the hill that we have upper lake there and then we have a hydropower storage between the matrimandia lake as the lower lake and the lake 30 meter higher on the hill as the upper lake but the final the best thing would be of course if we have the matrimandia as the upper lake and 50 meters lower at the beach to have the lower lake next picture yeah no the picture yeah no can you put the picture yeah here you see from our desalination plant area we have laid the pipelines already nearly a kilometer under the east coast road and kuna school and and close to mango hill and we have put two big pipes inside one is for bringing the drinking water to the matrimandia area and the other one is for the uphill power storage so we have envisaged at that time maybe a lower lake somewhere at the beach now we have to see if we can utilize the foil cushion in the open sea then it would of course be the easiest we just provide the lower storage in the open sea and we have the connection with the matrimandia and then we could store 17 500 kilowatt hour per day with this storage that means we could run or will nearly I mean in with the present population anyway but even with 50 000 people we could run it to a big extent with our own solar energy which we store in the matrimandia lake and that is now the 17 500 kilowatt hours is with a one meter variation of the lake level which on top of it it is that it's the lowest in the night when every anyway nobody sees it and then during the day when the sun shines it is full and we pump the water out we pump the water up into into the lake next now how safe and durable is the htpe foil we have talked about that also we have 100 years guaranteed performance next how to prepare the lake bed before the foiling that was a big issue which we were thinking a lot and we were working on a lot but I think now we also have got enough experience for that and there is also no reason for this question to wait now and look at the existing lake next the evaporation that is a very interesting point we had more than 10 years ago already made our first test pond with the LGA being present at that time physically they were doing it at matrimandia we sealed it that one with mixing bentonite with red earth we got bentonite from jaipur area and all that and there we measured john was doing the work mostly we measured very minutely the evaporation every day sometimes several times per day we were putting up evaporation pans inside the water so to make sure that the water temperature in the evaporation pans is the same as in the water body and all that and we came to an evaporation which was much more than what is written in the books the school knowledge is that in our area we have 40 centimeter over evaporation in a water body that means we have a total evaporation over the year of 1.7 meter and we have a rainfall of 1.3 meter so a water body evaporates 40 centimeter every year more than what it is replenished and in our first test pond our measurements they gave us the picture that the evaporation would be much much more and now based on that experience we made our calculations for the first section of the lake and now all of a sudden we found that the evaporation now is much much less we were surprised that sometimes the water level over a few days was not going down nearly at all while it was sun was shining and there was no rain so obviously in a big water surface humidity is saturating the air on top of the lake and blocks the evaporation which in a small pond is not the case because the wind blows away the air on top of the water body so anyway there will be big surprises and the bigger the lake surface will be I presume the better the ratio of evaporation with a 10 meter deep water body according to the school knowledge anyway we would have only 4% of evaporation every year compared to the stored water but it looks that the ratio even will be will be better next so now the big question which we are discussing internally at Matrimandia also a lot is should one leave the first section of the lake as it is now and wait for three years and look at it and I don't know what one wants to see then or should we continue according to what were our questions for research for the lake all the questions have been answered except maybe a few which anyway cannot be answered if we don't progress so from the point of view of now testing the lake I don't see any reason why we should not proceed with the work htbe foiled lakes have been made in thousands thousands and we don't have to prove now that htbe foil holds water that's not the the purpose of the test all the questions which we had are answered and now the whole thing is in a flow we have purchased two big excavator very big excavator cobelco jcb we have purchased lorries we have sheetfoot rollers we have all the equipment in place and now if we think that we can put the lake project into coma and then wake it up in three years again and it will be the same as before this is ridiculous all the machinery will be rusted or we give it out on lease then it will be broken half will not be there anymore or half of the workers who are trained now they will have disappeared there is a financial flow now where the whole thing is in a move and if we kill the project now it will not be easy to revive it after three years it will cost us and cause which is a complete wastage we lose three years of time so i think this idea that now we should stop and look at this first section of the lake makes absolutely no sense so we have to continue it would be highly irresponsible and it would be a kind of mismanagement and huge wastage if now we don't continue the whole thing is rolling now and it's like that the thing is manifesting the gin gin is out of the bottle you won't get it back and the lake will will manifest so from my point of view we can discuss afterwards it makes absolutely no sense to stop now and look at that first section and then i don't know what we should gain in that next so now our desalination plant here you see at the time when we were afraid that the receding beaches would eat into our compound actually a small part even before the groins were made was going down into the sea but here you see there is a groin which is the last groin of a series of groins which the government has made and by that they have stabilized the beaches so at least that danger that our land will go away is not there anymore next now something about the general water situation over many million years we had the rainfall replenishing the aquifers or filling the aquifers and there was a strong underground current flowing to towards the sea and flowing under the seawater in these aquifer layers which are basically clay layers so the freshwater is separated from the seawater so below the sea there is a huge freshwater bubble but now next picture now much more water is been pumped up by the bore wells in all our area then what is replenished there are studies of some French institutes that up to six or seven times the water is pumped up what goes back by rainfall so now we have a situation where more and more the groundwater level is below sea level and that means that the direction of the underwater current has changed now the water is not flowing from the land towards the sea it's flowing from the sea towards the land and then going into the lower groundwater level and there is a point when the salt water will hit the coastline and from that day onwards then when the freshwater bubble is exhausted salt water will intrude into the groundwater now one could think that our desalination plant should be ready at this point in time but this is absolutely a wrong concept we have to start producing desalinated water much before because every cubic meter of desalinated water which is pumped in line replenishes the aquifer that means our desalination plant is aiming at 5000 cubic meter per day so first of all 5000 cubic meter desalinated water if it is brought onto the shore it replaces the pulling up of 5000 cubic meter from the groundwater by borewell and then on top of it that desalinated water which comes it's being used and then after usage it will go in the aquifer and replenish the aquifer so by desalinating water you ease out this relation or you improve this relation from pumping up to replenishment and we should add as soon as we can desalinated water to the mix of water so that we in Oroville are not adding to the water problem by consuming more than what the aquifers get replenished so we have to see that we commission that plant as soon as possible we cannot really wait until then the salt water intrudes into the groundwater next now our desalination plant is supposed to be for sure the most ecologically friendly plant in India but maybe one of the the world's most ecological plants first we are not you we will not use any chemicals at all then we will drive the plant by 100% green energy that means solar or wind then we are using a so-called ERS energy recovery system I will explain you later which reduces the electricity consumption to half or less than half and then the most harming feature of a desalination plant is the forming of a brain carpet on the seabed I will explain you later what it is so now do the chemicals there are mainly two reasons why the traditional desalination plants use chemicals one is that the water is pressed through a membrane and the plankton in the water the living organisms they clog the membrane so usually you flake them out with chlorines which of course are quite poisonous so that they don't clog the the membrane now we won't do that we lead the water through quartz pipes which are UV transparent and we expose it to a high UV radiation and we kill the plankton with UV radiation and not with chemicals and then we filter it out with an ultra filtration system before the water comes to the foil the other reason why chemicals are used are the oysters oysters male oysters give their sperm in the water and the female the eggs and then when they unite the lava wherever they sit then on solid ground there they stick themselves to it and they remain the whole life that's why you see oysters at the bottoms of ships even at the skin of whales and in a big pipe which sucks in the water of course these lovers will be sucked in they will stick there and they will love this environment because they live of the small organisms in the water and there they have a strong current so they will grow very fast and then they start clogging the pipes after some time and then usually this is cleaned out by just flooding the pipes with hydrochloric acid which dissolves the shells of the oyster and then the whole mess is washed into the sea with all these with all that acid now we won't use that we will use robots to clean the the pipe so we won't use chemicals green energy is clear we will purchase windmills and we will need three to four windmills for the plant once it goes in full swing and then we'll wheel the energy there now the energy recovery system next picture is that you have a high pressure pump which pumps the water through the membranes and then you have first a salt content of four and a half percent in the usual salt water and when you pump the water through the membrane on the other side of the membrane you get the fresh water but that means that the salt will remain before the membrane and the salt content will get higher and higher and once it reaches six and a half percent then you have to adequately increase the pressure because you have to counteract the osmotic pressure and then you need so much pressure that it becomes unviable and you release this six and a half percent salt water back into the sea and this water is under very high pressure so usually you just let it shoot into the sea but we will have an energy regain system which uses that pressure to build up the pressure of the fresh seawater which comes to the membrane and in that way we can reduce our energy consumption by up to 60 percent so this is what is called an energy regain system it's a little bit difficult to maintain but it reduces your electricity consumption considerably and the last and maybe most important point is that when that brine is released released into the sea then it has a salt content of six and a half percent that means it is much more heavy than the ordinary seawater it sinks immediately down and forms a carpet on the seabed and because of the high pressure it doesn't have any oxygen anymore inside so it kills all the eggs or whatever which are in the seabed because it has no oxygen so you have to have a concept where this formation of heavy water carpet doesn't happen now in our case we have planned the release point of the brine 500 meter out into the sea at the location we have done a lot of patrimatic studies how are the currents there and calculated everything so in our case we will not have the formation of that carpet but if you see for example the big desalination plant in Chennai it releases 450,000 cubic meter of brine every day and has only 200 meter from the coastline the release point so the whole bay of Chennai is dead because of that I would have never given permission for such a plant so these are the four points which we want to implement in our desalination plant and it's planned not only for providing our will with drinking water but as a model plant which we want to then propagate for other communities at the coastline so that they also may think of an environmentally friendly desalination you must have heard that Pondicherry now has decided to set up a desalination plant and these plants usually are all the traditional plants which are not very nice now next point where do we stand with our desalination plant we have lost about four years because the forest department had refused to give us permission for the plant saying that it would disturb or prevent the sea turtles from nesting and putting the eggs at the beach I have never seen a sea turtle there but doesn't matter we have now made a proposal to the forest department in Viluparam that we open up our compound wall for the sea turtles and they can come in and nest there and that has been accepted next and in January last year there you see the forest ranger one miss Ashwati she has inspected our site and given green light and now the Viluparam forest department is recommending our plant now the documents have gone to Chennai and we hope we'll get the permission there soon and then it goes to Delhi and once we get the final approval then we can start um erecting it and and producing desalinated water next so now um the last point how would an Auroville water management system look in Auroville with the Matrimandir lake having certain functions in it Matrimandir is the highest point in Auroville it's 50 meters above sea level some even 55 and um so from there it would be the ideal place to distribute drinking water into the community by gravity now that we can store both um runoff water harvested runoff water and drinking water in the Matrimandir lake it makes sense to separate the two waters and have two water systems one for grey water for irrigation and one for drinking water or household water both can be stored in the Matrimandir lake separately with the underwater foil cushion and um we should in any case have a water harvesting system for the town where we bring all the uh harvested water to the Matrimandir or to some storage lake around the hillside which will be connected by pipes to the Matrimandir lake and there from there distribute by gravity the drinking water and the uh gardening and irrigation water into the communities and um it's interesting that um finally become relatively close to what Roger had proposed to the mother and she then had told to Sartreme that one could even let the water flow in open rivlets to communities that of course would be only the case for the irrigation water and then um or could what get water purified in some plants at the uh outskirts um and then of course as we discussed before we would also have the aspect of using the Matrimandir lake as um uh uphill for an uphill uh power storage so I think once the desalination plant is in place one would have in any case a centralized switch system that we collect the switch water we repro process it in in many big cities the water is reprocessed up to five six seven times um and then use it only for for gray water in addition with uh harvested runoff water and the drinking water used desalinated water and runner system where we store it um at Matrimandir and from there distributed to the city that seems to be the water management system which makes most sense next uh we have put um for you a number of information dossiers on our website for example we had done a study where we had 10 core drillings in the lake bed and 10 core drillings in the area of the future hill and got that analyzed by a research institute in Surat and so some of these things we are still trying to find it out now that that request had come we will put more and more information about these things on our Varuna website so there you can find maybe um additional information next uh roses quote we haven't put uh okay okay good so now if you want to have a small break or otherwise if you want to start with questions immediately so i think you now you hello okay now we'll move to the questions and answers so comparing to the previous time so we have two major differences so as Michael said there will be no deadline so everybody will have a chance but there is a strong request for you to speak into the mic because majority of viewers are watching it through online last time it was almost a thousand people so rochan is here rochan please raise your hand yeah so you can raise your hand as high as possible so rochan can see you and take down your name i see krista was the first so yeah krista is first yes and please speak only into the mic and wait patiently for your turn everybody will get a chance okay krista you hear me like that okay uh michael i approached the matrimonier executive about three weeks ago following a memory i had which is backed by three sources that includes one is pachi you know him second is jaclyn from roge and the third is the citry plants for the center of the city by anupama kundo so i just shared with you what i shared with the executive is that there is a hill in the plan of roge it's shown in all the plans of anupama which is situated next to the varuna the sorry the siru building okay so i am not knowing if you were aware of this fact i have only very one question to you i am actually not aware of that yeah i was almost sure you were not so therefore obvious question i'm mostly interested professionally by the interface between the lake as in a harald craft study which i have reread entirely just send it back to me okay and the water reaching the top of the people that is this interface i am interested in okay so um why i mentioned this because suddenly i thought maybe it's part it could be part of the system of storing water this hill is called a viewpoint was always planned is there on the map you can on the plan you can see and could be maybe used as a alternative storage facility to a hill situated far away at a lower altitude in the green bell just for your consideration my only question to you is today i have mentioned the interface between having water in a lake okay and how it reaches the people i don't see for the time being any plan drawings i couldn't find anything so anything i've been finding and i learned a lot today from what you said by the way is harald craft study seems to have been the basis for what you are doing yes or no okay crystal now this one and i often remember when we were in lucris t and discussed the lake together with roger you remember and then i dropped you somewhere in the pump us um actually the harald craft study is not at all the base of the water management system what we have now because harald had um his main storage was not the lake his main storage was the aquifer he said we should collect um the rain water and then purified and then infiltrated into the aquifer in a systematic manner but we now proceed from the concept that after some time the aquifers will be saline so to um collect the water and infiltrated into the aquifers uh will not make much sense number one number two we have um now three thousand five hundred or a billion let's say and we have in our area three hundred fifty thousand non-oravillians and the aquifer is shared by everyone so our whole system to be based on the aquifer means that um we use the same water management system as all the rest of india which we don't want to we want to have a completely distinct system which is much more ecologically friendly and all that so um we have since long given up on this harald's concept and he also is part of our group where we always meet but this part of his study that we use the aquifer as storage is not at all on the table anymore and the interface between the lake and the communities would be right now as far as i see but we have to discuss that with the town planning group of course um would be a double piping system where we have drinking water in one pipe system and irrigation or gray water in another system and then also have a centralized swish system because if you have an individualized system or small water cells everywhere with a underground tank and then a pump and overhead tanks and all that it is much much more costly and also a big stress on the environment all these whatever you construct is a stress on the environment and if you centralize that and have only a few parameters and link them with htpe pipe that's the best you can have but we have to now the thing with the matrimandia lake changes a lot the whole concept you may know the concept of gil bullico who had the concept of having small desalination plants inside the countryside which is i think absolutely impossible because then you his concept was to pull out a cellar in water desalinated there and distributed to the surrounding area which means that you pull salt water underground to there pump it up then desalinated there what will you do with the brine and all that so now with the lake coming up and the new features for the lake the whole concept of our water distribution system will change because any new element has an impact so we would have to sit and see how we redesign the water management system thank you michael just to thank you very much i have one just i'm i'm a bt yeah okay why a plea the same way the pre feasibility study of harald gave very clear indication about feelings i know of course the first aquifer etc now you just tell we have gone to a different system could you kindly make available to to us body your concept in a similar form on a written paper where most of the steps you have been exposing today are described okay in a very comprehensive we are not having nothing we have only your word for it which is fine i know the amount incredible amount of work and expertise which is behind what you say but a paper something simple you know that even a layman could read would would come a great help to understand what you are trying to achieve and even invite maybe others to build on that who's their knowledge we have already such as that okay i think it's a must we have put this paper which you have in hand also on the barona website and they are in bullet points the concept is given but of course one should sit and and see how to style the water management system of or will it was always actually a point where one he had once employed or brought in an electrical engineer who made a electrical master plan for or will we should have a professional water engineer designing a water management system for or will this is is an urgent requirement yeah but this is maybe more a requirement for you or for tdc than for us our function is to produce the desalination water to make the storage make the lake the hill and there it ends but the planning of the or will water management system is is the resolve the tdc hi michael this is julio if you don't mind i sit because my leg is paining and i have a few questions i take your word about giving some time i don't have a single questions i have several questions i hope you allow me the time so um you said and i have also some clarification to ask first of all i would like to say thank you for your work and for what you do nevertheless you introduced yourself saying let us do our job so my first question is who gave you this job so in the sense what is your formal relationship between waruna and the matrimandir team and or will and when i say formal i refer to um a specific if there is a specific contract about it or what i remember in a meeting some years ago you were present in that meeting somebody spoke on your behalf saying that matrimandir is a client and waruna is executing agency can you please clarify this point you want me to go on with the next no no let's take thank you one question after the other okay my formal link is with waruna is that i'm owning 200 waruna private limited which has um some windmills and which is donating the electricity to or will and waruna private limited also owns quite some lands we have purchased for example 25 acres of land in the greenbelt in the hill area and in other areas we have purchased a lot of land for or will and um waruna is the project holder for the desalination plan that means waruna private limited and we have formed one unit waruna or will to which waruna private limited has donated two windmills which belong now sort of to the or will foundation because waruna or will is an or will unit and from there we wheel the energy for example to the high tension zone that means wherever we produce the energy then we pull it out here in or will and we pay 5% willing charges and um being the owner of waruna private limited of course i have a certain formal power but in fact the actual today activity is done by the whole team there are other waruna directors for example arjo and rohan and in the private limited and their executives also in waruna or will i think even slava you are an executive no not yet um so um this is the formal thing but um as to what concern concerns the work except especially in the matrimandia i'm proud to say that this is absolutely deregulated i have no title no contract i'm not an or a willian i'm absolutely nobody and that's why i can do what i want so so um the mother said that um the sign of the future society is that we replace rules and regulations by a higher consciousness now unfortunately or will goes absolutely in the opposite direction we have 125 working groups and each one makes this rule and that rule and that regulation but when the work is deregulated and one can just work without rules and regulations i think that's the best okay i go to thank you i go to but another thing um waruna in the matrimandia lake also plays a role for example now the turbine has been ordered by waruna private limited waruna private limit has owns two of the excavators at matrimandia lorries equipment and all that so waruna is also physically involved in the lake construction because uh first the story started like that um we decided the matrimandia executives decided okay now we'll go for the lake that was four or five years ago then to start with i said okay um let's buy a lorry then i donated 29 lakh to the matrimandia to buy a lorry then after sometime the executives said yeah but this and that and we don't want to own a lorry and then we have to look after it and this and that so i said okay forget about the 29 lakh and then waruna bought a lorry and gave it to matrimandia and then waruna bought an excavator and all that so we had to push and give the equipment to matrimandia otherwise nothing would have happened so waruna private limited also is involved in matrimandia but also in a totally deregulated way we have no leasing contract or anything we just have the equipment they are working that's it thank you um i have to go to water now um i am very concerned uh about the source of water when somebody pardon you're concerned about what on the source of water which is going to be used source of water okay rainfall falling directly on the lake will fill it only for 14 percent runoff falling uh collected from the oval will contribute only three percent so um you mentioned today first time i hear it that you already start thinking at expanding the runoff catchment area to larger areas within the oral city which is a good thing but that also means uh that somehow you are to interface with our planning agency and with our community so how are you planning to do that because that means intervention within the city not only matrimandia itself okay we tell crystal to make a plan and organize it for us how do you find that anyway it will come naturally the moment you have a sealed area you have to do something like now for example the crown road is a big sealed area so all the water which falls on the crown road we have one 1.3 meter rainfall per year it has to be done something with the water if not then it runs wildly into the fields and and forms canyons and all that so automatically the moment the city will be built the sealed areas will have to take care of its runoff water and then we will have to think of pump stations where we collected and from their pump it to the matrimandia lake and the bigger the lake will get the more it can absorb and it will grow harmoniously i hope um that we enlarge our catchment area the moment we enlarge the capacity to hold the collected water yeah thank you still think that that will pose some problem with our bioregion neighbors but this is not the time for that discussion i have also concerned about when is the desalination plant going to be operational and the concern is coming because uh you plan to have a structure there and cushions and whatever but it's not clear what water you're going to use to fill the structures and this cushion plus on a different note a just a clarification you said that to counteract the ingression of seawater you plan to percolate desalinated water into the ground but as for what i understand here your desalinated water is not going to be percolated it's going to be stored so can you please clarify these two things thank you um we can store the um the desalinated water anyway only to a certain extent but the desalinated water will be used if we produce 5000 cubic meter of desalinated water every day that we were calculating the 5000 cubic meter thinking that we have 50 000 or a million everybody uses 100 liter of water usually as an average and when you have taken your shower then the water after the shower goes i presume in your house in some sewage pond and from there it will sink into the aquifer after you use the water it either is collected in a centralized sewage collection system and reprocessed which we don't have in oral well or at present after using it automatically it will go in the aquifer where else should it go so the 5000 cubic meter of desalinated water after they are used it will go in the ground water nowhere else yeah again i think we can discuss this because 5000 cubic meter it's not enough to supply 50 000 people it's not enough to percolate it's not enough for filling a lake but it's a matter of calculation um you said also that you plan to distribute by gravity at the moment you put cushions which are at the bottom of the lake you already lose some head some pressure there so your pumps had to run all the time am i wrong in this i don't understand why you say my pumps have to run all the time what you mean by that because you said that you plan to distribute water um by gravity to oral city because matrimandir is the highest point the topographic surface is the highest point but if you go down and you put your cushion down you lose that topographic surface advantage at not for everything but for some so your pump need to run yeah i mean no no let us say you would have um i mean you can of course pump it out from the cushion into the piping system but um even then um let us say they are five meters below the um the surface of the matrimandir lake which is the highest point in orville even then every community which is five meters below the matrimandir lake already would receive it um by gravity but anyway when we pump it over the edge of the lake then it will be at the highest point and from there it will by gravity flow into the um into the communities but now you have an even higher uh pumpage let's say you know the elephant tower near arati where you have that huge barrel on top of the tower so below that barrel on top you have seven times the storage underground and all the water you pump from the underground up into the barrel 15 meters high and then from there you let it flow by gravity and that gives the pressure for the communities so i think our system where you have to pump it five meters is much more economic than what you have now okay still to be discussed um we have one more question on on the technical thing which is you said and the small pond the wind does not blow away the humidity so that's why sorry the humidity gets blown away by a wind and that's why the evaporation is higher but then you said that hasn't happened on the lake so now i would like to understand how the currents are formed if the wind has to form them when the wind cannot even blow away the humidity on top of the lake thank you i didn't actually fully understand it but uh it's very clear that a big surface evaporates per square meter much less water than a small surface um because a small surface um the air practically always is um dry air which comes from the neighboring part and the bigger the surface is the more humid the air above the surface is and the less moisture it can absorb but what was your question there now exactly yeah the question was if the wind on a lake blows away it's not able to blow away the humidity which is on the surface of the water how can the wind generate currents to mix the water within the lake yeah the um the good thing is that the wind always causes the wave movement and the moment you have a wave movement you have a steep flank and then you have again a valley and then again you have the slope and when the wind blows onto the slope it hits the water surface in a certain angle and by that hitting it pushes oxygen into the water so if you have no wave movement if you have an absolutely flat surface and the wind blows over it much less oxygen gets into the water then if you have a wave movement through to the wind and the waves are always perpendicular to the wave to the wind direction and receive the oxygen in a much better way so it's always advantages to have if you have a big surface you have a formation of a wave movement and that helps to get oxygen so the more wind you have the more wave movement you have the more oxygen you get into the water yeah that was not my question my question if the wind is not able to blow away humidity how can it create waves but doesn't matter my two points what is who will be responsible for the operation and maintenance of this huge thing that is not clear and we would really like to have an answer i just made a calculation from the number you said three rupees per cubic meter per annum that is the amount you said tonight for maintenance of one cubic meter per annum it amounts to 40 lakhs so who's going to pay for this money and who is going to be responsible for the lake after waruna is not there building it but who will run it and then i have the last question thank you i hope waruna will be there but but i think to maintain the lake will be much much cheaper than to maintain a garden area we now have an irrigation in the matrimandia gardens on an ordinary day of 200 cubic meters of water and look how many workers we have in the matrimandia gardens i think john how many workers matrimandia has now 150 something like that so for the lake we need maybe two or three and for the rest we have 150 so i think if waruna what would not be there anymore and the burden of maintaining the lake would fall on your shoulders you would be happy to have the lake and not some garden area there well i would be happy if i have a say in it but my last question my last question is what is the financial liability for orville for this project thank you very much the financial liability for orville is zero orville is not giving anything to the construction of the lake till now at least i'm not aware of it so there is no financial liability for orville for you who is next rohan good evening my name is abkhaz i have question regarding risk management because this is a big project you have a 70 crores what you're saying and we take five six years time so risk management that each part what you are doing environment making hill and all the parts so how you are what type of risk management do you have if something is not happening as your plan what you will do in that case the accounting of the lake project is done via the matrimandia the matrimandia accounts i think are cag audited so i think it's impossible that there's something would disappear the foil and all the things which come from abroad anyway have to come by donations so the foil we are purchasing in germany and it's donated from germany here it comes free of charge the geofabric the turbine whatever whatever baruna private limited does also is free of charge and the expenses at the site let's say diesel for the lorries and excavators and all that is accounted in the matrimandia accounts which are cag audited does that answer your question from the people who are living in that area and they say okay we don't want having and they are making protesting or something like that what you will do in that case no who would protest against what no i mean fish a community of those who are living in the at the coast side they may have an objection yeah this is of course a good question that's always the problem with the fishermen always is a real problem everybody has that even for example when this question happened with the turtles we were in vilu param rohan myself shiva and then this forest officer where you saw the picture she told us what problems she has with the villagers who are willingly coming and destroying the hedge farms they usually take out the eggs from the turtles if they know okay a turtle has come put some eggs then they take it out bring it to a hedge farm then they put it there in the ground and then the villagers come and destroy because they have the totally wrong concept that the turtles eat the fish turtles are vegetarians they eat only black sponge but the villagers think they eat their fish so they try to but to cross the whole village area in such a way that none of the villagers even know where is the type and it's 10 meters deep so we are relatively safe at least to bring the water um the plant itself will be on stilts on in a container in two containers we can have all the equipment for our 5000 cubic meters so we anyway plan to put it up in three four meters height on container we will have some personnel there so i mean you cannot make your equation without the local populations the villagers are there and they are there so if they create a problem fine you have a problem we can't avoid it but i think um we will manage somehow uh Slava Lafkamat still wants to say something one request um it should be quite good if we have a overall overall uh client and see in picture how it will be when with the hills and the surrounding lakes the how it will look like so at present we have no idea we know that is 50 meters or what you're saying about hill and what what will be there what will not be there it will be much easier to understand it what you're planning and will be more acceptable um the hill is planned to have a height of 30 meters that means more or less as high as Matrimandir and it will be very nice um to have a hill in Orville where in the evening you can go up and watch the sunset and look very far it's always an uplifting consciousness which results when you look from up down uh and um it is in an area which is only five meters below the Matrimandir area Matrimandir area is around 55 50 55 that's five meters below we don't want to put out maps with the exact location of the hill because we still are in the process of purchasing land there and we don't want to the price for the land to shoot up too much but um the hill will be you will like the hill once it's there i'm sure even if you don't see it before good evening my name is Ram Naray I don't have a question but an appreciation and thank you for being an receptive instrument for manifestation of this and I think all of us are here for that same purpose for the manifesto of the dream uh I have a small experience last summer observation which I said individually with some people I was happy and they were happy I would like to say it here after the uh realization of the first test lake uh the pond um what I have observed you see during the summer the water was evaporating it is the depleting even the channel water was also depleting and maybe it is the cooperation of a collaboration of modern nature which during this period of summer every week only at night heavy showers of rain which was recharging the whole channel and that one and that means the mother nature was happy happy because it promised to the mother in 1957 after one and a half year of supplemental descent upon earth that mother had a uh I have a conversation I can uh read it to you is that mother nature consented to collaborate and at that time Huta was there mother went into trans he was in the trans so happy and happy and when she came out she wrote immediately and what she wrote and that became the next year's newer message which came in November but uh mother requested uh uh Huta not to disclose it and she promised and what she wrote oh nature material mother thou hast said that thou will collaborate and there is no limit to the splendor of this collaboration later she says this can be taken as one aspect of the collaboration between the spiritual power and material nature nature is always going on her own ways spiritual things are going on their own ways nature and spirituality do not go together there is no collaboration so far between them but always hostility towards each other when the new year begins there will be an endless collaboration between them 1958 onwards there was endless collaboration what I could uh concede there will be plenitude joy glory and magnificence there will be the promise of the new world of the supplemental world because mother nature the material mother has said that she would collaborate so everyone should love her and maybe she was waiting for the first part of that test lake was manifested and she extended her collaboration and through intelligence whatever the exploration energy enthusiasm that is coming to your team if maybe it is gift and all our questions and answer with our all present knowledge we are doing it but what mother has said you know into the supreme in the 70s you are now here but i am in already 2000 that means she was 30 years ahead and whatever that she has said it is always already manifested somewhere and we are just instruments to manifest give the concrete save to this and the another one which i contemplate always i think everybody would do that the city will be built by what is invisible to you the men who have to act as instrument i would consider without you having any status as you said not this not this not this but to be a receptive instrument doesn't one doesn't have to have any status i consider you to be an instrument then men who have to act as instrument will do so despite themselves they are only puppets in the hands of larger forces nothing depends on human beings neither the planning nor the execution nothing that is why once one can laugh let us all laugh thank you great did you yeah i think in terms of collaboration we still have to train a bit but it's sometimes quite ridiculous yeah and we laugh also i have next annum palette and then julia wanted to come again i see philip now so if somebody else wanted to be on the list raise your hands early and rohan will have to take the names yeah first of all michael thank you very much for this work and thank you for taking on the liability for orville it's you know i mean we know how much has been contributed how much has been taken over by all the delays you know the rise of cost and everything so you've assumed all that thank you on behalf of orville i have two questions not two questions just curiosity ones because i'm not an expert i'm a lay person one is that in the galaxy plan one sees the lake and then you see the runoff of water possibly you know flood water from from monsoon or something which goes into the green corridors now have you thought about that does that play a role in any way in part of your plan this is one the second one of course it would be very nice to have running water mother spoke about it quite often even in the orville parks even in the park around the lake even in the matrimandia gardens she wanted running water waterfalls this is a typical element also of japanese gardens matrim the mother lived in japan for some time and if we can realize that in our town planning it would be fantastic roge also spoke about it and we have to see how to realize that of course in in some western cities where water is not an issue you have such rivulets and it's always very nice we can't think of if let's say we have a lot of runoff water which is harvested and also desalinated water which is produced every day anew and then we have a system where we purify it and that means we add then the gray water let's say we produce every day 5000 cubic meter of desalinated water we bring it to orville then you take your shower it goes in your switch pipe it goes to a plant where it's purified then after that we cannot use it as drinking water but it can be used again as gray water can be going back to the lake and then we could have a system where these 5000 cubic meter plus what we harvest in rainwater harvesting which should be much more could maybe not flow only in pipes down to the communities but in open water bodies this would be very nice this is again then an issue for town planning not for us but I think there are already quite some consideration in this direction that we would have open water rivulets flowing through the city let's see how we can realize that but we would all be for it everybody I think in Orville would be happy about that thank you so the second part is something which I was asked to ask you is that when you say that the drinking water will be collected at the lower level and stored there before it is circulated as drinking water to the city does it go through any treatment or does it just go from the plastic bags to how does that work if you speak of desalinated water yeah yeah I mean whatever you are calling drinking water drinking water can come from two sources ground water which is relatively pure or desalinated water and there's a big difference ground water is drinking water you just pump up and hopefully it's clean and it's been pumped to the communities now desalinated water has of course a special feature it doesn't contain minerals anymore it's fully free from minerals that's the reason why you can store it more or less indefinitely because it is so hungry for minerals that any bacteria which would come inside would be dissolved because it attracts the minerals from the cells of the bacteria so desalinated water has in a way a disinfective feature so you can store desalinated water for a very long time without it getting contaminated but then when you let it flow to the household usually you let it flow over some chalk or marble or something so that it regains the minerals this is not necessary actually we usually have too many minerals at least in the in Europe you have you need about two and a half gram of salt per person usually with 100 grams of bread which has a salt content of 2.5 percent you have already your daily salt so we all take much too much salt in the west and if you have now water which is totally free of minerals it's rather positive for the body not negative when people say that desalinated water is poisonous this is all a nonsense the owner of MFT Köln the plant in Germany which manufactures desalination plants which has manufactured most of the desalination plants on the Indian warships and from where we intend to get also our desalination plant when I met him last time he told me he had has lived now five years from desalinated water without minerals and he is fully healthy but usually to allow the desalinated water to regain the minerals you let it flow via some chalk or marble or some some stone where you allow the desalinated water to replenish its natural poise of minerals thank you yeah I didn't raise question the first time because the situation is already difficult I didn't want to make it worse but I may be sentimental but for me the lake has always been associated to Roger and Aral craft so I was feeling strange and not listening his name now I'm happy that you mentioned but just before coming I discovered a video it was in March 22 a video of the Aroville Foundation with the secretary with you with Anupama with Toby and with Aral where they were asking questions to Aral I had not the time because I had to rush here but at least I listened to Aral and one thing is just what Anu has been asking now concerning the desalinated water Aral said that is not that is poisonous but he lacks the nutrients and so these things have to be added and then of course you will add to the cost and I don't know or because the video is one and a half year old I don't know whether things have changed now but this is what he said and then yourself said he pays the major attention to using the water through the buildings and this to me is something not only obvious but in fact is quite outrageous that is not happening in Aroville so of course this is not your business it should be the business of the ATDC and of the architects but exactly time that finally we start harvesting water that way and then another discrepancy with what you are presenting now is that he builds his legs with clay and I remember I've been seen the slides of his presentation I always like to see that at the edge it was greenery so now it's it's very difficult for me to visit again the Matrimandir gardens and seeing just this pebble I'm happy to know that his granites at least is better but anyhow it's quite different than what I was seeing with Aral presentation and as himself he said that in case of this polyethylene if there is a breakage it's difficult to find and costly difficult to repair and so on of course he's one and a half year old the probably thinks his progress but anyhow he suggests to have anyhow a double insulation and in this case he himself use clay because he says that in the case of clay if there is a breaking it's much easier to repair and on top of the way it seal they start sealing all around so that is much safer so my question would be I don't know anything maybe I'm saying is stupidity but it would be possible to put on top of the polyethylene clay to have beautiful lakes like Aral is doing first of all Harald of course is very much part of our team and we had made some five years ago for test ponds in the Matrimandir area 10 by 10 meters and one of the test ponds we used this clay this vacuum compacted clay which Harald usually uses for his lakes and you're right this if a small hole appears and you have a clay liner then this is usually self-healing so the clay gets suck into the hole and clogs the hole so very small holes can be closed can close themselves with the clay but we had tested the vacuum compacted clay which was performing actually very well we had tested the htp efoil we have tested natural clay from the area and we had tested bentonite mats bentonite is a mineral which swells with water and if you do it in a proper way it can also give a good sealant now the result of it of these four tests of the sealant was that the bentonite mat was an absolute catastrophe the natural clay was a semi-catastrophe of the vacuum compacted clay which Harald uses was actually quite good but the best was the htp efoil which has absolutely zero leakage now if you do it with a vacuum compacted clay you have the problem that you always have root intrusion the roots of the trees are attracted by the moisture and grow towards the lake and grow through that clay inside the lake and suck out water and so a vacuum compacted clay as sealant tends to get defective after some time and has a lot of problems it's maybe nice in Germany but here we decided for htp efoil and Harald also said we should try out and if it works then he's all for it and he is very much part of the whole thing and very present also at that time when we did for mini test points he came together with the LGA specialists and we all were here in Auroville and and did the experiment and evaluated it and and he is part of the team does that answer your question somehow no I don't think it makes much sense because the vacuum compacted clay first of all it is about 10 times the price of htp efoil and then it has no function if it is on top of the htp efoil it is a sealant and if you have the htp efoil as a sealant why would you put another sealant on top of it it it makes no sense and then also of course that clay diffuses into the water so it gives a nutrition for the water so your algae growth in a clay lead pond is definitely much more than in an htp e sealed pond everybody of course has his technology which he uses and which he likes and Harald is in love with the vacuum compacted clay we know that and if he finds companies which pay for that and he makes a lake with that very well and it's nice also in Germany it's his style but for us we had all the sealants tested and he also agreed that okay let's take htp efoil but see the granite chips which you see now they won't be there anymore afterwards once the lake is full you don't see these gray granite chips then the water comes till till the top so your concerns now optical that won't be there anymore after two months hopefully so we have seven more names so i just and then julio also wanted to come again i suggest you do it in the end i think so yes jan is next i just have a small request to be a little more concise so that everyone has a chance to speak hello um we have about a hundred people earlier some left already i don't want the people go home flabbergasted with a statement earlier on julio and michael were talking about that it needs more pumping power to pump from five meter deep and an open water body that is not so whether you pump from the top of the open water body or from below it is exactly the same pumping power you should both know that the second yes that's correct because the water pressure in the water is always the same whether it's five meter down or on top it makes no difference the second point pertains to the aspect of that the test lake has been tested michael you know i totally disagree with that we all know that there we have a very lively discussion always on whether the um reconstruction should be continued or not now i have a question not that i'm in favor of democracy or voting or something but just for interest now after you have heard that who of you is in favor that we continue should raise the arm and afterwards who is in favor that we stopped now for three months can i can we do that after i spoke and then we are fair you spoke for one and a half hours i could speak for two minutes okay yeah so the picture we saw second picture or something third picture um probably a german lake very beautifully clear and then you have this kind of murky suspense at the bottom and one can think that if there is a major leak you would see kind of a change in this murkiness um our lake at the bottom looks completely different there is no clear view not even for 50 centimeter it's completely murky everywhere now we are looking at one hectare imagine you're looking at 16 hectare of lake where you have to send hordes of divers down and try to detect the leak um so detecting the leak will be very difficult regarding the foil i have no doubt it is excellent material regarding site's work also i don't have any doubt he is an excellent worker very conscientious every seam is being tested it's really proper where i have um doubts is actually about my own work if you look at the other picture we had that was last year when site came we were not ready for him um he started foiling and i had to move and prepare the next section of the test lake in the same day because he would come in the night and foil it so compression preparation of the the underground was done in a very quick way um so my doubt is on my own work the geotextile it can expand up to 300 percent but if you would have a hole the size of a fist below the geotextile and now the water level is only 5 meter now it has been lowered to 4 meter so the pressure is only 4 tons per square meter but if you increase the pressure to 10 meters it will become 10 tons per square meter so any common sense would dictate that if you do something to be 100 sure you don't test it at half the pressure ideally you would test it at double the pressure we can't do that the minimum is you test it at the pressure that it is designed to last and i strongly recommend that with every section of the lake that should be done because it's so difficult to repair later on the second point where i think we have not done any testing at all is on the water quality of the current lake you say it will take three years i say no in the current monsoon that is just about pending i'm sure we can raise the water level to eight meter and in the next monsoon in one year time it will be full but we have a big problem with the water quality just four days ago there was a bucket of dead fish in the test lake i went swimming in the lake the top 20 30 centimeter of water is 40 degrees hot there's no fish there's no plant life when you dive there it looks very unhealthy so we cannot duplicate this kind of lake until we come to a solution to this there has to be some kind of a shading people who were designing the matrimandia lakes with the little lotus ponds they know that you need to provide shading on open water bodies because here unlike in Germany the climate is so intense that the water heats up and it becomes healthy for aquatic life so my point is michael you have created something really fantastic from an engineering point you have my full full full support but now after we have done the test lake we have to make that thing beautiful and something that becomes into forms in a biotope that it doesn't become a maintenance nightmare where we need to have artificial oxygenation i think we can really with a short stop in the work one year i promise you we can make modifications to this project to really make it worthwhile of matrimandia and of oracle okay now now i want now i don't see how by stopping the construction you can solve this question of for example the 40 centimeter hot water layer on top if we continue the work at the same time we can try to find solutions for that we don't have to stop the work to find a solution or research in this point it's not required that we stop the work now to find a solution for that we can continue the work and find a solution and stopping the work means just a huge waste in this and anyway as you say now most probably in one month or six weeks we have already eight meter height of water level and whether we have eight or ten meter doesn't make such a big difference and htpe foil has been tested thousands of times in so many water bodies even much deeper than than 10 meters so i don't think that it makes much sense to stop the work so but now let's just okay you have your opinion i respect it we have our opinion i would be interested to see what who thinks we should continue the work who thinks we should stop it let's start with who would think that we should continue the work and who thinks we should stop the work okay it's i think slightly more who say we should continue but more or less equal 50 50 okay that was just for one second as laba can you just give him the mic i mean wait wait i respect the queue i don't want to hold the mic before the other people but my point is the third option i really want the work to continue but probably differently this can be a third option that i want to propose but then what would be the difference you are proposing oh yeah okay i speak a little slowly that the third option i propose is i really want this project to continue but probably did little differently no but you're making it yeah very interesting yeah by stopping we would like to and i don't i don't think we stop yeah because this is a kind of very polarizing question because there's a nuance in it because people have different concerns and people are here to express so i think what is important is integration of different opinions and definitely you have point that you prove that what is important for continuing the work so i think we need to be able to address this Saturday in community voice instead of putting it yes and no so this will help a lot in the community process because at the end what we need in the community process is this harmony harmony is not one way so i think integration brings actually harmony so for leg project i feel or maybe do you have a spare mic seems to be working okay i can meanwhile say something to it what i can it's okay okay i'll take your advice and drink some i think it's ordinary groundwater okay um of course it would be nice if we could collaborate the problem in a collaboration is if it's not really focusing on the actual subject but if people try to just bring in some elements in order to feel that okay they have also participated and contributed and then the whole thing becomes a bit problematic you maybe you know that russian joke what is a camel a camel is a horse designed by a committee so um um so if you have um if you have a committee and everybody wants to put his chutney to the dish then after some time you have more chutney than dish and then it becomes a bit weird so um if they are if it is focused on the subject we are very happy if we have any participation we are always open for discussions absolutely no problem but then at the end one has to be able to act and and do the thing which is best for the course and not just to try to integrate everybody and okay this one we do this for his sake and this one we do for that that's a little bit my problem it was um very much when we built the matrimandia uh was very clear roger had the authority and there were so many proposals for this and that and uh was very good that in the end then somebody was there who said okay it's been done like that and now it has come out very nice if you would have incorporated all the proposals of everybody it would have been a total sausage salad next i have jasmine and then gajendra and we move to this yeah thank you michael i would like to start by what you just said about uh the committee that um basically saying that uh too many cooks spoil spoil the broth right um i would like to oppose this with an experience and faith that is very deep for me and especially living in oravid has deepened it so much more and that is that as so as long as we look for solutions and we all have partial answers to a question uh it looks it tends to look chaotic and it can take very long to come to do anything that looks satisfactory but when we hit the right thing through there is a moment when suddenly everybody's happy and we know mother's will is felt i've had this experience over and over and i believe i'm not the only one um i speak here as one of just as normal member of oravid society not specialist in lake matters at all but um there are many of us who are deeply deeply um interested in seeing the lake manifested deeply care and that's why we came here and that's why we came together a few days ago at the alabumi that's why also many of us um almost 300 i believe bothered to sit and fill um and provide feedback on the matrimandial lake and i hope you've had a chance to look at it because many questions have been raised there who that uh i did not find at all answered here the questions here were of technical nature and i think we all really appreciate the work the incredibly painstaking work that has been undertaken by you and your team over so many years it's been a lot of patience and technology is certain as it certainly has its place in fact it's very impressive and it's quite easy also to get mesmerized by technology almost like by its brilliant glittering cage i would like to remind that we hear all of us because oravid was inspired by something from the highest source and the technology is meant to be at the service of something higher of spirit of which mother has given us some fundamental principles one of them is beauty and the feedback that came from our villains i think fifty hundred or more times is please introduce beauty into the lake we are missing beauty many expressed how they feel almost frightened and it is really not an uplifting experience right now to go and see what is happening and when we see the excavation one of the first questions that arises of course is how long will it take or even lake lake two to fill up i'll be very happy if i'm happy to also remind you of the questions i'd like to bring in a few other points because afterwards i don't want to speak if you allow us to go full swing it will go fast but if we discuss every point it will take another 50 years i mean we have discussed it now 20 years or 25 years and there has to come a point when then you have to do it after 25 years the first people with whom we discussed may not be there new people are there and they say yeah but i have not been consulted i have not been informed this you can go on endlessly we had the same discussion with the matrimandir for the discs or not and then there was a meeting and then piero and paulo and they and some people said yeah it would be so nice and so simple if it is just pure concrete and no discs and no gold and megalomani and blah blah blah and then after some time we just pushed through and did it and afterwards paulo came to me when it was finished and said he's so happy that we won the game and not he because now it's so beautiful so i think at some point of time you just have to do it and i continue i believe that i've already spoken about in favor of collaboration not collaboration of egos because that won't be possible but i i'm convinced that i have i see i experience people so many people who really want not from an ego perspective but who really want to see this lake happening in the best possible and most sustainable possible way that it is also a satisfactory and acceptable to our bio region that as indigenous cultures say you plan for seven generations after you not only for the next one or 100 when we pull out or for a hundred years maximum i believe it's really important and it's and it is possible and collaboration being such a key point when they say if you want to go fast go alone if you want to go far go together so i hear many i've heard many many technicians technological people who have serious questions i would like to see that we can widen the panel a little bit that the panel of that we can bring in experts also from our our indian perspective from other sides to answer all the aspects that play in for instance water quality dead water we we all probably are familiar with the research of masaru in moto if we want to be in a spiritual city we need to have water that can receive the spiritual force we cannot have dead water we have to find solutions to the beauty and the living quality of water there are many such questions that need to be answered so my query is really okay may i answer just one question of yours which you brought up about beauty i think the point is well taken it has come from many sides and it's important to remember that it's not complete as yet and that part hasn't really been worked on and i absolutely feel that from at least where i stand and where we all stand i think it's a point well made and it's a point well taken but let us go on further i hope that by going on and while continuing whatever work maybe possible to continue please take this aspect seriously right now because beauty has been violated the sense of respect for life has been violated by the killing of hundreds of trees already there is a big concern and it cannot be swept from the table please show that respect to the community let's find solutions together let's find solutions that are respectful of life of mother nature we have heard a beautiful quote by mother how mother nature collaborates so let's put that in action let's show respect also to the people from the bio region by informing them and taking them on board in the planning let's also show respect to the law of the lands that when there is a court order that prohibits felling of trees the answer is big in the room how is it possible that hundreds of trees have been felt while that judgment is active and valid so there are many questions that are really very urgent for us and we are not wanting to stop the work for the sake of stopping and nobody wants to lay to delay just because we don't want to see or will bloom we all want it and we all know the earth is in crisis or will is in crisis let's get together let's sit on the table let's complete experts from all sides so that we find a synthetic solution that mother wants from us thank you next is gajendra nanzan selvaraj what a comical i have a lot of my brain running very fast what how can i explain this space the right time i fail right time i'm talking my bottom of my heart actually i have no plan anything my brain first i will tell you first i want to say to you i'm already working many euro ruje paulo now you are there i'm so great thanks to mother the participation i'm coming for participation i'm not going for an order and rule and my own things to implement here already it is there mother view so what i felt whenever i see you i tell you first i'll tell you friend of you i'm not actually selfish i've never think any benefit anybody else so mother gave an opportunity and or a will here until today what i can even tiny things i do i'm doing every day one whenever i see you what i pray to mother this is i actually i don't say that but i i'm say that when i see you i pray to mother i'm nothing here doing here you are doing so great things here please mother you give me my life i don't know how many years my life part of my life give to michael but i see i tell you i'm telling i'm telling because why such a great things happening here you're a need here for mother work mother dream i'm really that i pray to mother always we don't know that only we are you and me only wishing on the way that's all you're not much close and not working it's very close but i only see you this is my prayer always to mother but i think there you're making a mistake that maybe i'm like the tip of the iceberg but below that there is 10 times some other people and okay the credit goes to me but actually it's side and our children and shiva and whoever so it's the whole team which is working and there's nothing that okay one of the team players is more than the rest actually there's questioning very easy anybody can make question easy easy all the questions easy but what i felt the question people they are a really intelligent people also i didn't say any participation i didn't say anything there here i don't like that they have a question whatever you come to the site you question anybody else the people are there pushing them and do it questioning is i don't feel to write things here participation hell collaboration together fish mother dream this is only i want here i like your what you're doing to work with the finish for future people for future there's so many people after 50 000 people coming here you're doing only foundation now here that is i'm separate i'm support i'm i'm very happy please continue there's a one minute very valuable of our life one minute don't waste your time all other organs also thank you but i think it's time also to maybe look a bit at the matrimandia workers and we have so many workers who are they are full heartedly putting in all their effort a lot and they are really dedicated and working hard without the matrimandia workers we couldn't do anything this is really they are very nice people they are in the team yeah uh first i would like to thank uh michael and the team for taking this forward for me this lake has been a big question all along but now you know seeing this picture there i feel is coming you know going forward i'm really happy happy about this because things are moving that the next bit you're doing it's not you've got to complete the the the lake it's another bit and i think please don't stop somehow i feel there's a big force who are trying to stop things stop things and run through a community process obviously for me i feel very strongly this community process at the moment it is basically trying to go towards stopping things please i'm really happy about this go go ahead and another thing what i wanted to say is that i mean there is a lot of questions what trees stuck here and we feel energetically with a tree this that there are many things but we can't be listening to all the all the bits here and there but the other thing what i'm just saying i really feel grateful to the indian government at least at this moment they finally stepped in and said they're they're willing to help the master plan the horrible city to come forward if you wait more you know already two-third of the green belt is gone it's not going to come it won't come it is high time be really focused and take things forward instead of trying to build in a story community process where we keep trying to stop things i pray and thank thank you all who are leading this thank you okay thanks you get 100 points out of 100 for you now for the collaboration i want to say something we should maybe collaborate also in looking at the process and how can we abolish the process by collaborating because the process this religion of the process is really something which is a big hindrance i feel so if we speak of collaboration let's look at all the aspects and there are quite some aspects which are not really very nice here philippe next sorrow hi i am philippe um can you take the mic peter no i'm i'm just very spontaneous i didn't want to say anything because i'm very very very interested what you're to say and i find it um impressive but when you talk about process and pointing at so-called um how do you say destructive process it is not correct everything is process and it's the wrong word for that just be more precise or let's be more precise in that because there's a crux here in the community between what to say um we know everything or we are seekers now in the way and these are different camps even here i feel and we have to come to some more clarity on that and not pointing fingers at each other because we all have this other thing in us that's what i want to say it's a bit not so very clear and maybe not out of state but this process i find you a michael because i really appreciate what you're doing um hi i am i am philippe i'm an engineer by the way uh thank you very much for your presentation your effort you are everything and your clarification the clarification you gave about the vision your vision of the matrimandia that you're pushing very hard thank you also for introducing us to the technical scientific team in germany making the concept decisions for the matrimandia lake i'm a bit puzzled there those are nice very smart gentlemen probably um experts in their domain i work with experts in my domain i'm somehow an expert in my domain uh you you i don't think we can anyone can claim that they are absolute authorities in their domain and that they never make mistakes right that's a basic of science you mentioned very very often those are scientific facts that you know and there's no need for you to present to us because you know and you have the experts this is there's something wrong here um just been pointed a very important thing about beauty many people do not see any beauty in the design that you're proposing so it has to be thought of like it's matrimandia it's not like if you want to do a test lake and all of you you can find other places to make those tests um i think there's a misunderstanding deep misunderstanding or a difference of understanding with the very project of orville here um orville is as i understand maybe i'm wrong but that's how you understand it and i think many people do like me understand orville has a collective experiment so when when you explain to us that you come here you're no one here right it means that you don't take any responsibility actually when you say that you're no one and anyway but anyway you do what you want that's what you told us you just do what you want right you do what you want in orville hmm um about water management i have also deep concerns about your project let's say my grandmother used to say don't put all your eggs in the same basket as a computer engineer i think decentralize what you're proposing is exactly the opposite everything is centralized anything that goes wrong will have deep repercussions everywhere that's just the principle of centralized things this is a huge mistake and you're you're not going to be affected by those mistakes because you don't live here and maybe it will happen in 50 years in 100 years if this project is realized like that i mean that's there are too many things here um i really ask that it doesn't need like we're talking about long term and now you're just yeah last point you agreed three years ago to a test point right and now you're saying that this is no this is nonsense we have to go on and complete the whole thing so that you can do your tests but then you're asking us to believe you to trust you fully with that and whereas three years ago you agreed to something and now you said this is nonsense thank you okay first of all i have never agreed to just make a test point and not belay car somebody else may have agreed i not but to come to your to come to your thing of the more scientists looking at it there was a 20 year long process endless meetings and quite a number of other scientists we had taken at that time sorrow will remember some um from the ana university from the it some water specialists indian water specialists and they proposed every scientist proposed something else you have five scientists you have five concepts and then we tried it out we made some four test points by the way we never got the permission from town development council i went twice to i'm the but to dosi who was at that time the official head of the town development council and he was enchanted by our concept and told yes i will tell sorrow and suhasini to support you and all that give you the permission we never got the permission then finally we just did it and first of all how can it be that in or will you are not even allowed to dig four holes and test for sealants imagine that in a city of progress and town development council was just always blocking it but then we tested it and the proposal of the main indian scientist was to use natural clay but the performance of this natural clay in comparison to our htpe foil was a disaster so after testing the proposal we came to the conclusion that htpe foil is the best thing and we have spent a lot of time a lot of effort on this thing and have taken our conclusion and it's not that we didn't want indian scientists to participate i was not referring to the htpe foil i'm not competent commenting anything on that i'm commenting basically on the 80 meter wide or 130 meter wide circle as you said like without shadow completely uniform and completely devoid of any beauty that's what i'm talking about but the lake also has a beauty i always don't understand how people can think that a lake is not beautiful all the important city if you see cities which are at the lake like geniva, zurek, zooc a lake adds so much to a city and now you may think that this is big in comparison to 3,500 people maybe it is big let there be 50,000 people and i can guarantee you if or will become a success it will not stay with 50,000 people everybody will want to come here and soon or will have 200,000 or 300,000 or more and the lake in perspective to the full or will population will look so small i think nobody sorry sorry nobody here i believe question the fact that there should be a lake around the matrimonial gardens we all agree to that i believe the problem is which one how do we do it like the parallel with the crown road is quite obvious right and back to that collective that's a collective project or a villa it's not the far west it's not like someone like is a cobra and say like oh i come and i do what i want for 20 years we have discussed the lake and we had a 20 year long process now how long should that process go another 40 years no the matrimonial executives five years ago took the decision and to start the lake okay next is sorrow and then judging well first Michael have an invitation because it was not why you want to talk as the mic but it is a second time in a meeting that you talk about me you take me out of history and talk about as the person that had been blocking etc please stop doing that when i was in tdc i raised question to you about financial and technical viability of the project you say that you didn't want to answer those questions that's how it went so that is for the past i mean please stop doing this and dragging me out every time unnecessarily into the into the into the history uh then i have some question why yes for the mic i have three questions maybe i can do one by one so you can you can answer the first question is relating to the depth of the lake we know that roger has not given any depth to the lake we are not here challenging the parameter of roger my personal one impression that one received from your presentation is that in order to achieve a parameter of 10 meters which has not been given by the mother has not been given by roger we are going to create a very complex uh centralize the system complex and technological and we don't finance it and the financial point of view that will be some points sooner or later has to be managed in the community you may say waruna take care or not taking care but at some point is something that has to serve our way and by taking this solution because we are fixed on the 10 meter depth of the lake we are going to invent and creating solution for what distribution like the bubble that represented the last uh meeting and many people are raised concern which i have myself in a place like carvel which has to supposed to give a certain level of consciousness even in the food and the quality of water we eat how can we supply that water which has been stored in plastic where the entire world is going to move away from storage water in plastic as far as possible so that so my question at this point is the following image first can you review this concept of the bubble because it's really one source of concern but the second point is as far as i remember there was a study of costra tell me if i'm wrong a name of the that's a four meter for the lake then rlcraft proposed 10 meter because there was a need to recharge the aquifer now there is no more need to maybe have one question no no because now you're already at question number five no no i'm question number one don't need to i just make a statement i'm a question number one now we have need over we say the rlcraft came and made a proposal of 10 meter because we need to recharge the aquifer now the concept of recharging the aquifer you say it has been abandoned but we stick to the parameter of 10 meter where yourself has raised out in your presentation and we create artificial solution in order to achieve the parameter so my question is if i understand correctly and i've not misunderstood your presentation is still an open question whether it is good or not for the water quality to have and the oxygenation to have four five meter or ten if this question is still open why then you go ahead with the excavating a lake of 10 meter and if you feel that you got all the answer now from the test as it has been made until now then please put all the card on the table of the virus respect yet and come to some conclusion has to be five it has to be 10 it has to be 10 because we have to satisfy a certain situation or it can or it can be five otherwise what might happen you just make one more second and then you can i answer the question because if you're going in circles no i was just at the end i'm not going to and be patient with me because i'm patient with you and with everyone i don't know why i've taken the matter so personally with me i can't remember you to stop okay so the question of the depth of 10 meter is very simply answered if you have five meter or 10 meter the five meter deep lake will have half of the water storage but the same cost that means from 50 rupees per cubic meter you come to 100 rupees per cubic meter stored water and then it becomes not feasible at all it was the main subject of the matrimandial lake to demonstrate that with an open water body of a depth of 10 meter you can reach a feasibility of water harvesting if you make the lake only three meter then you come to 200 rupees per cubic meter stored water it's just not feasible anymore we wanted to demonstrate the absolute optimum of water storage what is the cheapest and the most feasible and there it has to be 10 meters from the point of view of the economics otherwise you can just forget it the village will not be able to afford double the price for a thing secondly even for the water quality as yang said on top you have a layer of 40 degrees hot water now the less the depth the hotter the water gets the deeper it is the better the water quality go to jinji where you have these huge deep lakes 50 meter deep and they have a fantastic water quality so if you have a shallow lake you have a hot water you have much more algae algae growth there are arguments for this or for that but the main purpose for the matrimandial lake research was to see is water harvesting feasible and there the water storage is the key part and that had to be feasible and for that it's not feasible with five meters but it's feasible with 10 meters and we want to demonstrate that we have a technology where you can have it 10 meter and you reach that price ratio does that answer your question yeah partly partly answered that you say it is a financial decision it does not transfer the question of the quality of the quality of the water but that was not the question I make and just so that means you are ideas to go ahead with 10 meter yeah for the next time we want to you are not you are not going to review these even if the technicians I say that the quality of water is better to have four meters no we want to we want to have the maximum of water storage for our will for the or will water system and so we want to have it 10 meter deep on the width of course if we would make it if we would make it less wide we could maybe then make it more deep to have the same water storage facility but I think at 10 meter depth is possible and is the most economic and from the point of view of water quality there are different opinions harrow craft things that 10 meter is much better than five meter other scientists says no you should have it so shallow that even on the bottom water plants can grow there are different opinions but I think 10 meter is our choice second question I mean is related to the electricity nexus is a is a purely question because a few years ago when we discussed I understood that this project was for giving a backup for one hour of electricity for the city of 50 000 inhabitants so I don't know if you have updated data if the figure is correct and if the figure is correct is that worthwhile to put all this system because we are impacting the way we decide about our energy distribution not only what yeah actually this uphill power storage is something which we had proposed even in earlier meetings five years ago one has come all the way to my place in Germany to Degendorf where we inspected three or four of these uphill power stations we had done all the calculations the mathematics now with this new feature of the underwater cushion we have even much more possibilities than before and there are in the internet you can find these calculators where you can just calculate yourself how many cubic meters of water what height difference and you get the result of how much energy you can store so with one meter water level variation of the matrimandial lake and with lower storage at sea water level we get 17 500 cubic meter kilowatt hours of storage which then we have to see how we work out our electricity system in order that secondary then we have to see how much solar can we install how much wind energy we use this we have to see then but it's not related to the lake we will try to get the maximum out of the hydropower storage that for sure third question and regarding the desalination plan i mean because there are concerns about the timing because on one thing i agree with you you want to do this system you cannot wait 2028 to have in place you need to have in place before and that is i don't know how much is realistic to have in place before but my question is the desalination plant has certain cost in terms of management and you say that your role is as waruna is a service provider so once you have supplied to the client matrimandier or our will that is so who will manage the desalination plant after it's completed and this started distribution system and which covering the cost of the maintenance and management because it will be a substantial amount in any case even if you do your own electricity you generate solar power plant etc but still there is some situation involved who will manage it the person who will manage it we don't know it has to be the i'm asking waruna or our will limit waruna private limited will manage it same way as waruna private limited is managing the windmills and it's not concerning our will waruna private limited is paying the maintenance fees for example every windmill every year cost us 10 lack of maintenance fees which waruna private limit is is paying and we are giving the electricity free of charge to our will so we are planning also to convert water to a moneyless commodity in our will and it will be waruna private limited as far as i see now which will manage the thing you commit to the covering of the financial the operational cost of the desalination plant for waruna and the as far as i see we don't want to put the cost of the operation on on the community we will try to have our own windmills the cost is basically the electricity nothing else a little bit of maintenance for the machinery one calculates around 3% of the cost of the machinery for annual maintenance of the machinery and the rest is the electricity the seawater is free of charge and okay you need an engineer but i know desalination plants for example in california the montanary bay desalination plant a plant of approximately the same size of ours that engineer was managing it with his mobile phone from home so he saw that if there's a problem and then he programs on his phone and he manages the whole thing so the process continues and there's not so much of managing desalination plant if it's well designed in july then three months thank you michael uh so i have many points but my main concern today is something very personal and very dear to my heart that is about beauty in the project and beauty people can say it can be subjective but beauty can be collective as well that we can share we can admire beauty together and beauty is not only physical beauty beauty can be our attitude and also beauty can be our commitment in the process and eventually it will be beautiful that beautiful attitude and beautiful process leads beautiful result beautiful result so for me right now the beauty in matrimandri leg project is not awesome it's not yet integral and i appreciate this commitment in engineering per engineer perfection i don't know how to say it's technical perfection let's say at the same time we can see different categories in beauty so i want to emphasize it can be it is probably its lack of collaboration and attitude is making slightly this unbalanced process leading into this project right now and i appreciate you when anu was questioning about the her concern you mentioned about japanese beauty and i am here in all of you last 18 years and i still cherish the beauty of japan every time i go back though i couldn't really go back to japan last time like corona and so on but i was there like last few months ago so the way how people take care of nature you read a lot about mother how she spoke about beauty of nature and in japan and the attitude of people so when i having this as a background and particularly my family is really dedicated to beauty in Kyoto and i am soaked into this atmosphere even i was born and many people come from european fashion mason and all these artists from all over the world they come to our place and we work for government and we work for imperial families and having this background the way how it is manifesting right now is it's really questionable that beauty requires a lot of patience manifestation and beauty requires a lot of understanding not only about your own our own in understanding about beauty but we always have a chance to enlarge the limit of beauty by working together so right now i also personally work a lot with different artists architects different people and it is always actually fun to work together people always bring some limitation it may be frustrating but at the end these are really the stepping stone to some beauty which i actually didn't know so having this background i think we can really do a lot in matri mandil because it's enormous what we all really achieved for matri mandil though i came in 2005 it was almost time of completion but i still i could feel the beauty of matri mandil that we are people working together sometimes i was part of it i visited the shanta i visited the marble workshop people are working together today we don't have that atmosphere i think everybody can agree this we don't have that but we didn't lose it we just not committed to it so i think now it's time for open the door to collaboration for the lake because lake concerns everybody it's not actually about all of billions it's actually for villagers that mother said the first all of billions and merge into this background and then we can actually work together in a larger circle so but today my guideline is beauty beauty that is harmony what mother says so if we can bring greater beauty greater harmony i think we can overcome a lot of problems we have in all of it right now so i think i can contribute a lot and i know i many people can contribute for this and yeah so i think what's making this process not possible is partly existing structure and you may not like the process i know it makes you very upsetting i understand because i read your application from matri mandil from 2008 it has a lot of process and i liked it actually reading going through and again you have to go through go through this site permission site application in 2018 it's frustrating it's frustrating i can understand but when we have some obstacles maybe later yeah so i really want to request excuse me it may be frustrating okay can i say i think i think my killer i think i'm not telling you something wrong right now yeah see the question of beauty as arjun said has not come and the real battles afterwards will be for the design that's very clear i'm always a bit concerned of too many people designing something and then you over design things and the charm of the simplicity goes i very much appreciate i was quite close to paulo and he once told me that his system and he has done the chamber in this in this way his system of improving a design is by not adding an element but taking away an element i agree with you can improve a design like you have a table and then here you make something funny on the corner and he would take away the corner so he makes it more beautiful by making it more simple and we have the problem that in matrimandia if you allow the community to participate you have 3 500 designers tomorrow and it will be totally over designed but okay we have to discuss this and for sure when it comes then to the question of what we call the park which is outside on the outside of the lake where the mother has given very specific visions of tall trees and waterfalls and all this and that so and the design is not fixed now we are just making the lake but the shore we can design at any point of time as i told any point of time we can make two walls take out the water we can redo whatever we want there so let us build the lake and then we have to see how it integrates with the matrimandia gardens with the general design how fanciful or how simplistic should we design it but the question of beauty we haven't touched yet this is just building the lake but you cannot style or design the lake without the lake the lake has to be there first and then we can see okay what fits if now theoretically you make all kinds of fancy things and then so let us have the lake and then we see how we make it beautiful it's not that we are against a beautiful matrimandia yeah thank you very much so i agree that by only adding i think we cannot really achieve beauty but it's balance again and addition and then taking so i think yeah my point is by working together i think we can really achieve this yeah so then let's work together yeah actually we said time limit is midnight actually not okay i'll be short although i had a lot of things to say you see right in the beginning when orabilians came there was nothing here but still they came why did they come because they believed in something they believed in her she saw something and they believed in her and they said okay let's do it then they started the communities and we know all about it then the digging the excavation for matrimandi if we had stood on that day where it was just a barren land with the blazing sun and those three or four we see in the photograph standing there with mantis starting to dig excavate for the matrimandi would anyone at that time have imagined there was going to be this magnificent structure and that there was going to be this magnificent gardens all around but they had that faith and they went on and we know after that what happened we know how the crates the excavated site looked it was not beautiful it was quite ugly because it was an excavation but now we see what happened and this is the whole history of the matrimandi at each step of the way we had people objecting objecting objecting but there were some people who believed in her dream and they went on and today the beautiful gardens are coming you know everything is so beautiful it's such a pleasure to be there and it's such a beautiful atmosphere and so I want to thank Michael for believing in her vision of the lake that is to be and to go ahead and do the work because it needs some courage you have put you put all your means all your whatever to make this lake you have done the same thing for matrimandi for we know all the stories and bravo you know and I believe one day it will be very beautiful we will stand we don't know if we will be there but maybe next life we'll stand on that lake shore and say wow so beautiful only mother could have imagined this could any one of us have imagined matrimandi or the gardens or the lake or behind all this the new world the supramental world we believe in the supramental world but we have so many doubts about the lake the water this so I think you are doing the right thing if you take anything through the community process my experience of the last 36 years is that a community process means block block block all that you heard all the objections that you heard are multiplied 100 times is what a community process is the meaning of a community process is to block so it's a very uninspiring thing I'm sorry I am I feel there is something wrong there you know you go to a community process so-called there's nobody ever who said okay let's do it let's do it and even if we all make a mistake we have all made a mistake together we will learn from it together nobody says that everybody just says oh this will happen that will happen and that will happen I don't want this road here I don't want that thing here you know so it's like on and on it's very boring and it's not an adventure and mother has invited us for an adventure she said come to this adventure I invite you to this adventure who is who who has the adventurous spirit if we follow her vision it is not even an adventure because she has seen it so it is already there on some level and we are trying to implement it so when we in the process of implementing it she gives us something we discover things something beautiful is revealed to us and I think in that spirit we should go on with the lake and believe me it will be something very beautiful and those who want to collaborate and making it beautify they should collaborate what is stopping them they're all welcome to come and make the banks the waterfalls everything you know but if you take it to the community process good luck to you I have B then Lakshai and Anandi and then a few people wanted to speak again Anandi is this is Anandi right so you're Ravindavi didn't have on the list okay Ravindavi will build us so four people and then some people wanted to speak again I don't know if everybody can be shorter than maybe we can uphold it but try to be as concise as you can I can be very concise because there's been a lot of revisionist history here that's completely false but anyway I'll be I'll be very brief clay lakes never work we have land crabs here who eat holes in the clay so that's out and HDPE is not is a high density plastic that is not poisonous the PVC pipes that you're drinking your water out of now are poisonous so people have all these crazy ideas you know and I'm so happy that some of them are getting demystified and debunked but this story about the community process this is the community process this is collaboration and we've been doing it for the last 50 years the matrimandir people hark back in a romantic way that roger made the decisions and he he was the supreme lord there it's absolutely not true piero built the matrimandir mostly the second thing is piero made a huge mistake that people try to forget he told the whole community we have to go against the mother because the mother did not understand that the pillars are not needed to hold up the roof and everybody in the room said nothing and the next day we went up there and put in the foundations for the pillars it's written in the agenda 12 pillars he said no so i mean everybody is valuable even our wonderful michael wonke we threw michael wonke out of orville when he tried to build a factory in spade on we whole community went down there grabbed him by the neck and took him to the coot road put him on a motorcycle sent him to chennai never to come back and he's here today he helped finish the matrimandir and now he's helping finish the lake so everybody has a role and we don't have to lecture each other about what mother said what beauty means beauty is totally relative i have people telling me the matrimandir is ugly they say that glittering that glittering ball that's the most ostentatious thing unspiritual thing i've ever seen i mean these things are all very very relative and so why do we get so worked up and i'm getting worked up so why do we get so worked up and not be nice to each other everybody talks about collaboration we can sit down at the table and discuss things without banging and you know and going crazy and i've decided once i turn to 80 i decided i'm no more going to bang the table because it doesn't help so we can we can be nice to each other and we can work together and we are working together and the lake will be beautiful you remember that we had a meeting at matrimandir in the matrimandir workshop when we had produced the first discs for people to see and we also gave a demonstration of the inner skin something and then helmut was speaking on behalf of piero paulo was there and you were there and then after that you made a remark i still remember in the news and also in in the oronet about silent joy from that meeting which i think was the best comment which was made in the whole meeting you were there you remember no no i was not involved in that that was much later the meeting then with the with the thing yeah let's work together why not i mean everybody's open but we have to see that the collaboration is productive that it accelerates the process and not that it slows it down i'm luck chef uh first of all thanks for your presentation i'm as the previous two and previous one and uh thank you very much um i raised the hand when you asked i raised for continuing it so i am for it so whatever i'm going to say it's from the point of view of supporting you i disagree with some previous comment that this isn't we are going through a crisis i think we are not a political faction in audible is going through crisis from their perspective perhaps it looks like a crisis but where i am seeing from where i'm seeing it looks like an era of change um so uh but i'm new to audible so i'm perhaps may uh ask certain questions which may come across as non-informed um i saw this presentation and and it looks like you presented all the positive points i would like to see the negative of it i have not seen or perhaps i missed i would like to see what are the uh you know weakness in your plan and how you have set up mechanisms to overcome that and what what are the threats that you couldn't uh come up with solutions for uh perhaps somebody also mentioned before a brief study may not be as thick as i was in atc two years ago so i've seen herald crafts i mean not read through it but glance through it it's quite detailed perhaps it will take a long time to do that study but a brief study as white paper perhaps on this would have been much appreciated at least by people like me um and also you mentioned that the herald craft proposals right now stand not feasible after 20 years now you know that um what happens when your plan also after 20 years there are some downsides to it which come across so it may not be a bad idea to while not stopping the work parallely having some other technical people to look into the probable downsides um you mentioned also um that for the gold tiles of the gold for the matrimandir you had a accelerated testing center or mechanism uh why didn't we have an accelerated testing pond a smaller with with controlled uh environment and then see that its effect on the htpe layer and other uh geo um fabrics uh this part and then i go to the next part htpe is by far the best and the best tested uh polymer which exists and i think we don't have to test htpe the german government has by law forced the manufacturers of htpe to give a guarantee of 100 years for garbage deposits where only htpe is used because um the formula is so simple that it's totally inert against any chemicals acids all that that's why it's also used for food containers for food packaging i'm not questioning htpe i'm questioning the usage of htpe in insulation what is the effect of insulation on the earth below it so that's what i am asking what you mean by insulation um you mean the the foiling of the foiling of the entire yeah but there are thousands of lakes made with htpe to to make a test now doesn't make sense yeah it doesn't make sense fair enough um second uh is about the water quality i'm i mean like you said we drink from pvc pipes so many of us are used to it but then there is a you know a little bit drinking from a balloon of water filled in a balloon seems a little odd for some reason not perhaps well informed but like you said it could be some of the mental uh conditionings that we have uh and why are we going for such processes is it because we cannot um refill the lake with desalinated water uh why can't we just uh increase the number of desalination plans is it just a cost implication in that case can we not fundraise to desalinate water costs takes a lot of energy about three kilowatt hours per cubic meter and um one doesn't do that just for fun um you have then the purest possible drinking water and on one hand if you just pump pure desalinated water into a lake and mix it with runoff water and in the villages the uh people still have unclean water it somehow doesn't sound right um if we have pure drinking water and desalinated water is the most pure drinking water you can imagine one should use it for drinking water and not waste it and just pump it into lake and and mix it with uh the dirty runoff water it's as if you throw away food or something i mean you have some responsibility for some high quality product to use it adequately exactly my point when you create a desalination which is only enough for horrible population whereas there is a bio region imagine after 10 20 years there is a water crisis and we say what that sorry we have drinking water but not for you so instead is it not is it not sensible to plan uh perhaps for 150,000 or two lakh population and then even if it means requiring asking requesting the government of India to fund this it makes sense rather than relying just upon one party's ability to fund it yeah but we first have to set up the one that's already difficult enough and the one is meant to be a model plant in a particular way which then afterwards maybe could be used as a model to scale it and multiply it on the coastline but that's something which comes afterwards first we have to establish this one in terms of beauty like you mentioned and i totally understand that this is a work in progress even the other products which have come up in the last five years i've seen when it was built it was pretty ugly but then soon it it's okay and in fact it gets beautiful however uh why not why not have um somebody do a 3d modeling of it to see how it will look perhaps there is a challenge that we cannot imagine what not many of us cannot imagine how it would look once it is done and we can easily with a fraction of a cost a 3d model can be created i wonder why it is not done i don't think you need a 3d model for the lake anyway not for the lake for the water surfacecaping let's put it this way for example why does it have to be so steep both sides why can't we taper it off in a more in a manner that some of the trees are submerged that also brings me to the second point we only talked about you only mentioned about the you know water creatures but then there are also possibility of having trees a little bit within submerged in water and that becomes the place for birds to migrate perch nest things like that but this is a big problem the trees if you have trees in the lake or not in the lake in the middle but i'm saying on the side like i said one side even on the side if the leaves fall in the lake then you have an intrusion of biomass which spoils your whole oxygen household in the lake you have to be a bit careful and do the whole thing consciously but okay this is a subject which we will have to look in future but let's build the lake first and then we see okay what comes on the shores you brought the analogy of matrimandir perhaps it's kind of a misfit or a it's like comparing oranges to apple here because matrimandir had a design before before the engineer started digging and we can understand it's a it's a it's a it's a place where it's been dug up to create something which will come in the future so where is the design where is the model that's again i mean is it not is it not first you are trying to figure out the engineering solutions without even i'm not sure what is the what is the design part of the visual part of it and then and then even perhaps you might have even more challenges and that could have been like a great opportunity to overcome that there i must say i'm not of your opinion that there was a design before which was then never touched there was a lot of changes in the design in the course of it like um with pierro we changed there were in the matrimandir inside four big black trapeze shape holes in the beginning from where the air condition air was coming in then with pierro we removed that we made it plain the big in the beginning there were no gold tiles because of technical problems then we were working for three years in germany to design the gold tile get it perfect all this was not there in the beginning there were so many things which we developed in the course of time the inner skin all these um beams i remember we had made profiles met with again and again partly in lucris t in france partly in matrimandia and then detail after detail we designed while we were building it it was not at all that there was a design in the beginning and we followed that strictly it all came in the process of construction okay a final point um one comment that you made little bit is making me think uh you said you did you are on your own and you do everything uh little bit uh as you feel right um and given the environment like also shri moi spoke about this whole you know notion about community process being used for uh historically in order will to stop things to veto out uh i can understand the the word collaboration may seem very corrupt uh but then we also haven't i would like to know your opinion we also have an example of crown right now which is almost like a tragedy we you know like you are one man doing things there is one woman doing there and we we can't ask why the dubs uh wait i i don't get your point what are you saying i'm trying to bring your attention to the crown which is almost which is almost is being managed by is being orchestrated by one person for efficiency which is very good but then we can't question how it is done so my question basically is are you setting up a precedence which perhaps in your case we are all thankful and grat we have gratitude towards but then is it setting up a case uh for other people to emulate which may not be as good perhaps as in your case uh and in fact i would wish rather than you you taking this heat why not matrimandir team and atdc in there presenting and you as a person who is who is uh an expert who is kind of getting things done a contractor or whatever uh i wish that were to be the case um so this varuna like you said also private limited even this i i feel even the the future you're not bringing in or will i wish you say that i build this then it is atdc's job or matrimandir's team to uh to sustain it to keep it uh keep it alive you are also taking that responsibility on yourself uh i do not know what is your plan for next 45 years 50 years but then what happens after that's it i'm done um i'm uh i'm sorry if i presented the picture as if i can do what i want there is a team and and we are all doing it together rohan shiva arjun whoever is working selvam um yarn whatever but we do it in an absolutely unregulated way there is no hierarchy in our team that these are the executives and they make the decisions and the others they have to obey or something like that it's it's fantastic it's just we are working together and we are doing it and um there is no friction there is no big discussions there is no process it's we are just doing the work so um it's not that um i'm the one who does and the others follow not at all we have a team and we are doing it just together okay we are past nine at this point i have a nandi can we agree that we wrap up on this yeah everybody nandi and our leader is it okay and then and then we are done thank you um while this was going on i was bowing many times not only to michael banke or to the occasion but to the director of this play and to everyone who carries that something that sustains us for hours in this i see beauty not in the future but in the now because the beautiful elegant white water birds have come when we start to actually do things whether it is by one person a couple people or the larger community we get constant inspirations financial support creative ideas we get all kinds of support if we actually start to do things even if we are imperfect that is my experience of working alone working with two people three people or more so the number of people doesn't matter whether we are perfect or not doesn't matter whether we are alluvial is a lot doesn't matter whether it is about the lake or some other projects doesn't matter when we block something that we so much reject now this blockage can also stop since paul since that we want to actually see happen because of the n gt i know one very good project that perhaps everyone would like to see happening or a bell is paused that is the morning star the natural person center who would object to that for our villains to have natural birth for the new babies to come we need to see that there are other solutions beyond the legal laws because there is the inner law and there is the eternal law that bounds us all together i am not here for parties for taking sides i'm here hopefully myself and to also to invite everyone whether you are pioneers or newcomers or in any status to really see all sides to see the beauty now to act if that one person can do so much work with a small group how much orville can do each one of us and all of us together i feel almost guilty to take the mic now because it is so late and everybody is so tired so maybe i would not have all the things that i wanted to see it has been a long list but one thing that i do feel really want to share that when we put our faith in the mother that it is going to be beautiful i also put my faith in the mother that this community is going to be together and united mother made this orville for human unity and we cannot bypass it just because we can't we can't manage it now it has to manifest so it's not to pause the lake or not pause the lake but it is to be determined that human unity is a must at all stages and what has not worked in the past is not a criteria for it not to work in the future if we stay if we stay with that equation then nothing here could have been done so it is a place for transformation it is a place for growth it is a place for manifestation and let us be open for every aspect of beauty and manifestation nothing short of that one thing that i do want to share michael with you because i don't know if i will have ever chance to speak to you separately i would have loved to do that you again and again bring that beautiful 15 meter deep lake by the jinji as it can be done it is deep no problems water is healthy it is a natural lake it has no restriction for trees to be on the side it has no problems with the leaves falling in it so why is that working which will not work here can we not be a little bit more imaginative and creative about it how will we stop leaves falling in that lake every time there is a high wind because it is not only the leaves of the of the trees by the side it will be the leaves from anywhere they will blow in there so something that is at this point very mysterious is that we are caught on a on a sterile design which cannot have anything natural in it and for me it's it's a bit of a paradox a natural lake with natural beauty will have natural elements and have solutions for natural elements to be in beauty and in health that's my belief i think solutions will be found even this test lake now can become the site of developing the beauty side of it why wait this test lake is there we can start developing the the beautiful side of it i think it can it can enhance the the process so it's not a question and i'm not really wanting anybody to answer i don't want you to take any time no i'm sorry for that i will say something see the jinji lakes um i don't know whether you go there sometimes for swimming but there are several lakes and around the lakes is just granite there are no trees around and all that it's just granite and it's deep inside it's granite it's stone outside it's granite there are no trees where the leaves fall in and that's why the water is so pure and so clean and and there is not even any sediments coming in because it's not run of harvested water it's just the water which falls on the granite and flows in so naturally that's fantastic you couldn't have a better scenario but then this is not an argument for putting trees on the lake because in the jinji lakes there are no trees on the side okay thank you