 And you're very welcome back and I may not have secured an interview with Charles or Camilla this weekend, but I am delighted to be joined on air by phone by another Charles and indeed someone who could be described as royalty in the music world in Ireland, the UK and further field. I'm talking about Paul Charles, novelist, concert promoter, manager and talent agent, native of Mahrefels County Dairy and he has just published his autobiography or it's about to be published. Adventures in Wonderland. Paul, thank you for taking time out this evening to talk to me. Hi Jean, pleasure to do it, thank you. So you've already published about 25 books, most of them being mysteries and thrillers and some non-fiction book on the Beatles and some aspects of the music business, but this is your first personal memoir Paul. Was it something you had on the back burner for some time or was it a more recent decision? Well I've been invited to do it several times over the years and two things really, I didn't feel the time was right and then when I kind of started to think about it around about the time of the COVID, when I was doing bits and pieces on it, I couldn't find a way into it that I was happy with and then when I suddenly discovered if I used the timeline of my own life and set the different incidents and the different things that happened within that framework, then it kind of pretty much ruled on from there. And you've had a very, very colorful life since you started back. You've been described as one of the leading music agents on the planet, I think I read that somewhere, and over the past 40 years you've worked with some of the biggest names in music and Van Morris and Ray Davis and the Canes Jerry Rafferty, The Water Boys, Robert Plant, Tom Wates, Crossway Stills and Nash, Don McLean. I could go on and on, Carly Simon and you've been either a manager or an agent or a promoter with the police and Dara Straits and Carl Keane, et cetera, et cetera. So your new book, Adventures in Wonderland, tells the story of your 40-year-long career. When and how did this all begin? Well, the first group I kind of worked with, I worked with by accident. There were a bunch of mates of mine at school in Mara Felt and I was about 15 years old and they formed a group and because I couldn't sing or play in the instruments, the only way I could hang out with them was to find something to do with the band and in those days, yes, there was a name manager, but really the important person outside of being in the band was a person who got the bookings. And I happened to know a gentleman in the name of Dixie Kerr who played saxophone in a local show band, The Breakaways, and so I went down and knocked on his door and said, look, is there any chance that you could give a couple of relief spots to these bunch of mates? They said, yeah, of course, of course. And so they were called the Blues by five and because I'd got them a few bookings, they made sure they appointed me as their manager and off they all went. And you say in the book yourself that you're not a back fricking coming forward and saying that you haven't got musical talent yourself. You tried the bagpipes at one stage and you tried the guitar at another, but you decided to go on the managing route. Yes, I mean, I think there are people that can make music and can make music naturally. And there are people like myself who might want to, but try as hard as they knew how to. If it's not in you, no matter who your tutor is or no matter what your thing is, you're not going to do it. But equally, I did find that I really enjoyed working with musicians and working with people who made music because I've always been intrigued by humans that can make music or can write songs or can write lyrics. They've always kind of caught my attention. And I've always wondered, even to this day, how they go about the process of creating from absolutely nowhere some of these amazing songs and some of these amazing works. And again, what they do on stage and how what they do on stage has become such a big, big ritual now worldwide. And as the record industry has kind of waned over the years, it's become more and more important in a lot of in a lot of artist's careers. And you say in the book as well, we forget sort of back in the 60s, we didn't have mobile phones, we didn't have emails. And you had a very innovative way of getting people to contact you with a phone box down the road from your house. Yes, we didn't have a phone in those days. We didn't have a phone for several days afterwards. But we the phone box was was kind of, you know, again, it was a different kind of community thing. But probably the same as there are lots of places done ago, people would ring up the phone box. Somebody will be passed and they would answer the phone. And they'd say, hello. Can we speak to Paul, please? And then they'd try and ask in which Paul it was. And then they say, no problem. Hang on a minute. So the fact that the phone down, they walk down to my house to be saying, hello, chatting to the mates or whatever, they'd knock on the window and say, Mr Charles, there's a phone call for Paul. And, you know, five times out of 10, she'd say, well, can you tell him he's having this tea and he'd ring them back later or something like that. Fantastic. So you went to London around 1967. What was that? Just a chance to promote yourself in your music career. But before I suppose before going to that, the Beatles was your big, big band back whenever you were a teenager for listening to the radio in your mum's kitchen. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I remember even to this day, Jean, I remember walking into her house, rolling into the kitchen, you know, and I was always kind of, you know, eager to get somewhere as opposed to keen to leave somewhere else. And I ran in and I was literally physically, mentally, spiritually stopped on my tracks by the sound on the radio. And my mum was a big fan of, you know, Frank's Sonatra and Dean Martin. And her favourite was Emile Ford in the checkmates. And so she'd be listening out for these people and she'd have the radio on. And this sound and the radio was just so hypnotic. It was so infectious, so melodic, so pleasing, so energetic. And it turned out to be the Beatles and there, right there then, really, I suppose, you know, my life's path was chosen for me, you know, and as we discussed, I couldn't make music, but I could help people who made music get up on stage. And you said in your book as well, I'm halfway through it, and I'm finding it really, really enjoyable and very humorous. I have to say your turn of phrase now, things that go in shanks, mayor places and something was massive and the crack was 90. You just, you have a great way of telling the stories. But you say in your book as well at that stage that the Beatles album, it was a toss up between Robert Stolden's Sargent Pervers. But things changed in 1968 for you when you heard Astral Weeks by Van Morris. Yes, I mean, yeah, I kind of, I was a fan of Vans by default, if you know what I mean. I mean, we were all, I mean, the same with people with Daniel LaDonnell now and Donnie Gull, everybody's very, very proud of him. We were very, very proud as being from Northern Ireland that this band called them had a hit single in the English charts, you know, here comes the night got to be number two. And so he, so he was kind of, you know, he was somebody that everybody looked up to every, you know, and it was a great single as well, a beautiful song and so well produced. And so I became a fan and, and, you know, it was work. And then, you know, something happened at those days where you wouldn't really know what it was, because it wasn't the internet and they even wasn't enemy and melee maker at those days, at least on our felt. And so I moved to London and I was, you know, browsing through, you know, the record shops there and eventually I come across an import copy of Aster Weeks. And I remember it vividly, actually, it'd been on my way to show that had been cancelled because Terry Reed was ill and I went into the shop and I didn't have enough money because there was an import, so it was extra. So I paid a deposit on it. I scooted back down to Wimbledon. I, you know, scrounged money for my mates, cut the tube back up to Piccadilly Circus, another thing and bought this album. It was Aster Weeks and literally it just was like nothing I'd ever heard before and I haven't, haven't heard anything since like it. It was just, it's not a record that you can kind of put on at a dinner party or there's not a record that you can kind of just put on and continue writing or working on something else. It's just something you must give yourself over to and the rewards you get for doing that are just so, so impossibly overwhelming and it's just incredible. You know, and then I kind of, when I kind of was, you know, working in London at a band from Belfast called Frubb, we were working around, I was doing gigs, getting more and more, getting, you know, getting a bit more successful and then I kind of found myself in a position whereby I was going to see Van at a club and again, just as a fan when he came to London once and because I knew the promoter well and then so I rang up the promoter afterwards and said, look, you know, Van hasn't played in Belfast until them days. Is there any chance at all of getting them to come over to do some dates, you know? And so the promoter said he would mention to Van. Van seemed interested. I put together, you know, ideas for a tour, which was three nights in Dublin, two in Belfast and one in Cork and I thought everything was going well. Then I heard that manager was no longer working with Van anymore and so my dates were in the bin. So then I rang up a mate I had in the record company and asked him, you know, had he appointed a new manager? She said yes. And it's Bill Graham and gave me his number and I rang up Bill Graham and, you know, again, you know, we'd never promoted any dates in England before. We'd worked as a agent, whatever. And I should I explain my situation to Bill Graham, you know, Bill Graham, one of the biggest promoters in the world and here I am a wee lad from Mara Felt and I'm going and he asked me to give Van to come over to do a few shows. And I expected to be laughed off the phone, but he kind of he was he was very nice, very nice to men, very kind of, you know, conversational, very, you know, keen on whatever and dealt with enthusiasm well. And he said, look, Paul, you know, the reality is we just could not afford to come over to do some dates in Ireland all the way from America just wouldn't work out financially. So I crossed my fingers behind my back and said, look, okay, in that case, I'll promote the whole tour. And he said, okay, send us some figures in a route. And so we went through that. And, you know, I don't know that. And then they kind of rang back and said, look, we work with other promoters in England, we're going to have to give them an opportunity as well. So then I realized I was competing with it. So I made my offer. The offer went through. I got a call back a couple of nights there saying, you know, the offer was was good. They were going to put it to Van. And I got a call on all night a few nights later and they said, look, Van has approved it. The deal is on. He's going to come and do the dates with you. And then I discovered later, I haven't got the tour because of my offer being the biggest offer. I got the tour because during those days, I was also writing for music papers in Belfast City Week and Thursday. And then I would write about Van quite a bit and, you know, but whatever news we could get from America, what he was doing or whatever. And, you know, apparently we had this situation whereby I'd been to see Demek and Armstrong. And they introduced this song and I said, oh, this is Friday's Child. It's a Van Morrison original. I'd never heard it before. And I tried to get it in the record shops and nobody would have it. So I wrote it in my column next week saying, look, I heard this great, great song. It's called Friday's Child. If anybody out there knows how I can get a copy of it, could you please let me know? And the week after that, there was a package arrived in this City Week offices addressed to me and I opened it up and it was a major minor copy of Doria and on the B side was Friday's Child and also was a letter, a beautiful letter from Van's mother, thanking me very, very much for writing about Van. And Van had heard my name through his mom telling me what was in City Week. And so that was, he recognized the name. And off we went on an adventure and I became his agent, promoter and then manager for, I think it was for the next six or seven years. And was that the beginning of the big time for you, Paul? Once you had to establish yourself with Van, did other acts then hear about you and your reputation just grew and grew after that? Yes. I mean, again, it's one of those things, you know, your best adverts are the people that you work with in terms of, you know, when people are kind of thinking of moving or going or whatever, they kind of go, OK, well look, who does, who do the Beatles work with? Or who does Rod Stewart work with? Or who does Dannard Colm work with? Or, you know, and if, you know, you work with somebody like Van Morrison and people know you work with Van Morrison, then that means that the next door you open or you knock on is open more quickly and whatever. So it kind of, you know, we got, you know, through that, through the van tour, we got to work with Jackson Brown that I've been chasing for ages. And because we work with Jackson Brown, we could cross Bistels and Nice. And because we work with Van, you know, well actually, I thought the undertones came to work with us because of Van, but it turns out afterwards that they said, look, of course we weren't going to say to you, you work with the Buzzcocks. So we wanted to be with the same agent as the Buzzcocks. So you always get that all the acts you work with, you know, when you're starting off first, nobody will take your call. When you're starting off first, nobody really wants to know because you don't have a reputation. And so why would they go with you? Then as time passes and you get your first act and that works well in the second or whatever, then it becomes a different thing. You ring up on your reputation before you and it just makes you mix it all that way, but more easier. And all of these things are in your book. And the book has 42 chapters with some with a few pages, some slightly longer. And it goes from the beginning to where you are now. And there are a few stories now that I just found myself smiling at. One was when you went to interview Rod Stewart and we played Maggie May at the beginning of the show tonight. And I was I was I sort of got a wee smile whenever you said that you made your way by tube by bus and Shang Smire to the interview. And he was recording Maggie May. So you knew you were going to get him when he was in the recording studio. Yeah, I mean, I kind of I was it was a great adventure for me. You know, again, in those days, same time, I was the London correspondent, if you will, for for city week and Thursday. And I'd actually three different interviews to go and see Rod Stewart and whatever for it for, you know, to do to do a piece on him. And the three times fell through. So the little Carol actually from the record label, again, Warner Bros thought, OK, if I fix Paul up to go and see him in the studio, then he's not going to be not there because he's going to be recording at the same time. So when we see fix it up, I went up to Morgan Studios in the wilds of Harlsdon. And I kind of went to the studio and I've never been in the studio before. And the sound system just knocked me over. I mean, I was kind of I was I started dreaming about if I could get these speakers back into my bed set, you know, they would just be living in heaven, you know, even though the speakers were probably the same size as my bed set. But anyway, they were working on Maggie May. And so when they finished working on Maggie May, you know, Rod came over and we went through to another room. And there's definitely a party atmosphere in the studio with it, you know, with the same of the faces. They are always having a good time. Everybody in the entourage was always enjoying themselves. So we kind of left them having a bit of fun. Well, did the interview. Very nice interview, very nice man to talk to preoccupied as he is now, I think as well with his hair, but still nonetheless, very, very nice man. And we come back into the studio and it was doom and gloom. It was kind like a dark cloud had come through the door as we walked out and it was just silence. And it turned out in her absence in the middle of the party and somebody had sat upon Ray Jackson's mandolin and smashed it. And so then they were about to do actually, you know, they were about to do mandolin when I was leaving. But anyway, he was very nice about it. He said, look, it's cheap anyway, and it breaks easy. Don't worry, it happens all the time in the road. He played in a very popular band at the time, Linus Farm. And anyway, I headed off into the night. They were kind of getting back into their fun mood again and another man would obviously come up and they obviously recorded the track. And when you went to London, I suppose you took a leaf of faith, that you're going to make it big over there. But another story, you took a leaf of faith, I suppose, literally whenever you had to jump out of a window in 1976 when your apartment went on fire and you had to put your trust in Vincent McCusker, one of your band members to rescue you. Yeah, I mean, it's not a it's not a nice memory to remember. But again, that's kind of I suppose on the way I put it in the book, I kind of I dealt with it because I mean, again, what the story was that I was working with a band called Frupp, a Belfast band and and two of the members were staying in the same house as I was. And it was in a very, very hot summer and very, very hot summer. And I remember, you know, going to going to bed at night, and I couldn't sleep because it was so hot. And then all of a sudden I heard this, you know, what felt like massive thunderstorm rain falling on the because I was in the eaves falling on the roof above me. And I think, oh, my goodness, great, the weather is broken. I'll be able to get to sleep now. And it kept on in a very calm as raining and raining. And I've never known rain like this in my life. Oh, my goodness. So I went to the window and the window stuck my head out. And the first thing I noticed was I looked down at the pavement and the pavements were bone dry. And I was kind of going, how can there be and be so heavy? And you know, and the pavements are bone dry. And anyway, then I kind of turned around to the right and all these flames rushed past me. And I kind of immediately realized it wasn't rain. The you know, the house was in fire, the apartment was in fire. So I closed the window again. I poured a bottle of lemonade over a towel to the towel to kind of seal my the door for my room out. And then I kind of I really was trapped. I couldn't find a way out because the door was flames on the other side of the door and I could hear them rattling away. Luckily enough, the guitarist in the band who was also in that first band, the Blues by Five, was a gentleman named Vincent McCusker from Macarra. And he was in the flat underneath mine. And so I stuck my head, the window was shouting for people and always come along. He's, you know, obviously woke up by the all the noise, stuck his head out the window and said, OK, and I saw the flames. He saw what was happening. And then so he said, OK, what you're going to have to do, you're going to have to kind of come out on the roof, slide down over the roof because of the day window. And then you're going to have to get and have your feet dangling right by me. And when I say so, just drop. And as you pass, I'll catch you. And I was thinking, OK, now let's see what else I can think of doing because that's not going to work for me. And anyway, it got to be such a desperate state. I mean, I even considered jumping down onto the pavement. I figured I'd probably break a couple of legs, maybe something else. But it wouldn't be as bad as getting burned. But anyway, I kind of he said, look, man, you've got to do it. You've got to do it. So anyway, eventually I did it. I kind of went out and I can just feel me going. I got to that point whereby I was saying to myself, I'm not going to be able to do this. I know I'm not going to do this. But at the same time I was doing it, the same time I was going through the motion of doing what I needed to do to survive. You know, I think we all have that thing in us. And I kind of slid down over the over the bay window. I then caught my chest on the hook on the the gutterine and kind of ripped it open a bit. So when I came to my head, I kind of part of my hands furiously to make sure my head was out. I got to the point whereby, you know, I was kind of either now or never. So I he said, right, I'm ready. So I dropped. He grabbed me as I was passing literally under the arms with superhuman strength, pull me and me both fell into his room in his apartment. And I passed out basically and came to the minister later when I was being let out, let out of the house. But, you know, the thing is, it was just that surprised me was that how your instincts, how, you know, matter what you think you kind of can't do, how your need for survival, how your need to continue to breathe air will make you do what you need to do, no matter what the risk may appear to be. And those were two stories that I just picked out tonight and I don't want to go into them all because we just want to give the listeners a taste of what to eat in the book. But just maybe one more story. And that was your search for Paul Skeffington. Yes, you have read the book. Well, remember. No, I thank you. Now, yeah, I basically pretty much decided at a point in my career that if I could only find the new Paul Simon, I mean, a young Paul Simon and somebody who could write songs like Paul Simon and Jerry Rafferty and people like that, which where the name Skeffington came from, that, you know, and now with that point of being the age that I was, I could, I could go off and help them a successful career. And I searched for ages and ages and ages. I kind of, you know, went through all the tapes were coming in. I went to see everybody that like all new acts I could all, you know, in clubs all over. I even took some adverts in the Belfast Telegraph and nothing, nothing, nothing doing. And I also worked at that stage with a gentleman called Paul Brady. And Paul was doing a week of the main fiddler. And as usual, I was there on Friday night, I think it was. And so there was a there was a great crowd in and there was people, you know, who kind of wanted to have a good time and were having a few drinks or whatever. So I thought it's a bit packed in here. So until Paul comes in, I go into the quieter acoustic room, have a cup of tea and a bit of peace and quiet, and then come in. And anyway, I was sat down. It was what was called an open mic night when they would have say maybe five artists on and each of those five artists would bring some guests and the guests would be the supporters and would buy a drink from the bar and that's how they made it work. And I went in, got my cup of tea, sat down at the table by myself and I'm sitting there, you know, relaxing, whatever. And Paul Scaffington, my name that I given this artist walks on the stage. But the only difference was it wasn't a he, it was a she and it was to need a ticker him. And I remember to this day something that she did that I felt was very, very special is that, you know, she obviously hadn't brought any of her friends with her. She was from Basingstoke. And so she was on stage. And when she was on stage, none of the other people were really interested. So they were all talking to various grades, various degrees. So she was kind of about halfway through her second song, when the noise from the table closest to the stage was so overpowering that they were drowning her out. And so what she did was she kept playing the guitar. She stopped singing. She walked away from her mic. She walked over to their side of the stage. And she just glared down at them until one by one by one, they became self conscious and stopped talking. And then she made her way back to the microphone, still playing a guitar and it struck up singing her song again. And I just thought this was incredible. And it turned out, seeing that this was her first ever time on stage, you know, and I just thought that's to be that sus to be that, you know, to be not be rooted not be be rooted are I going to shout at them or whatever just by kind of virtually having the power, the willpower to put this energy on them that these people stopped talking and allowed her to continue to do her set. And I never I never I've never ever forgot that. And anyway, I met her. I met her a few days later, and we became her agents. And then because we couldn't find her a manager, or she didn't was feel comfortable managers. She invited me to be her manager. And we went off and and had some great adventures together. Amazing. Amazing. Do you ever pinch yourself sometimes to see about to and that this all happened fall in your lifetime? Yeah, you you do because I find it quite unbelievable because again, there's not a story in the book about the first time I met I met Ray Davis. I mean, you know, I was a massive fan of the kinks loved all their singles. You know, really, really loved them. And I remember going up to the embassy ballroom and dairy to try and get a gig for my band, the Bluesby five. And it was as, you know, again, the best way to do it was to hitch and go and see them or go up and go and see them rather than four or whatever. You didn't infectious. You didn't have emails. And so I went went to see this manager. I knocked on the door. They said, Oh, no, he's doing something. I said, Well, I don't mind waiting for him. I was kind of I knew that just to be politely persistent. So I would then and he was retaining go-to dancers and they were dancing to Waterloo Sunset. And I heard the song that day probably about, I don't know, maybe 20 times. And it was just burned into my brain forever. I mean, I loved it before, but I was kind of this is just really one of the perfect sounds. And then you fast forward from there until say, I think it maybe is about 12 years later, I meet Ray Davis. He's looking for an agent and friend, a mutual friend has put us together. And you kind of kick in yourself, you go on, hang on a minute, how did a wee man from Marafelt's, you know, who managed the Bluesby five and whatever. And well, you know, how did I ever get to meet somebody like Ray Davis? And then also to find out that he's such a sweet, sweet man, just an incredible gentleman, you know, and I've been working with them ever since. Well, I know that as time is beating us tonight, and we haven't even looked at your involvement on the acoustic stage in Glastonbury or your Asgard agency, but Chapter 41, you give an attempt and I say when they give an attempt, it must be a hard job to do, to pick out your 20 top live acts. And I have to say that 75% are my favorite artists as well. But if you had to pick one just to give a quick summary, what would it be? I know you're a very fond of the Waterboys live thoughts. Yeah, I mean, it's not a problem, the question, the thing with that question is I have, I definitely have answers for it. But you know what, if we talk again tomorrow night, I would kind of, I would go to a different act. You know, some of the wonderful gigs I've saw would have been, you know, the Carpenters at the London Playlium, Van Morrison at the Rainbow, Mirri-Mar Grahara at the Dominion, the Waterboys at any number of festivals, you know, Waterboys are just such a powerful act live and you know what, and they get better and better and the same with the Hot Hours Flowers. So I suppose I'm chicken and out scene and not, not kind of selecting one, you know, but any of those, any of, any role of those. And, you know, and Nick Lou and you and I could talk for another half hour and I'd keep on adding names to it. And as I said, I hopefully the listeners have got a taste of what to expect in your book. And it has been getting really, really good reviews now. And Joseph O'Connor, best-selling author, said it was a wonderful, enjoyable memoir. John Conley said a fine piece of work and Tony Clayton Lee in the Irish Times said from working with Superstar, Rockstars and the creme de la creme of singer-songwriters to bring in the clash to Ireland, the undertones of the U.K. Van Morrison into the mystic. Paul Charles knows the music, but it's in this insight out and the adventures in Wonderland spills the beans in fine style. So plenty of really, really good reviews for the book. And it's been published now, it's been launched now in a fortness time for Hall, am I right? It's, it's, it's coming out on the 19th of May and it's on Hot Press, Hot Press books. You can either get it on their website or, or any, any of the usual bookstores. And I think even McFadden's and Remelson are going to are going to have copies on sale as well. Fantastic. And then you're, you're doing a few tours as well. Some of the dates here now, Friday the 19th, you're in the Irish Cultural Center in Hammerswood. But you're in Bangor on the 21st of May and you are in Dublin in the 26th of May and you are in Seamus Heaney's home place. Well, that's the nearest one to Machra Belt and to us here in Northwest. That's the 7th of June where you'll be talking about the book. And as I said, I could go on for another half hour more with you Paul. But hopefully the listeners have got a taste of what the book is about. And I'm certainly enjoying it. And Billy Robinson gets a mention in it. Donnie Gull gets a mention in it. And Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And No, no, no, no, no. Billy's one of the best sound engineers I ever worked with. Well, I'm sure the white rabbit will take you down a few more rabbit holes before the ventures are over. And I just I love some of your chapters as well. Like, you know, nothing to lose the time that you had the concert and to lose it. It wasn't just cross missiles and that were playing. I think they're and there's a pun there on the word to lose. Like, you know, there's a lot of a lot of a lot of times in the book for I sort of found myself giving a wee smile and said, that's very clever indeed. So thank you so much for taking time out to talk to me tonight and every success with the book. And you never know our past. My cross and remelts in some time. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jean. Thank you.