 Okay today we're going to be spending a half hour with Martha Whitney and Martha works with our community and economic development office and specializes in women's issues. And the city during the last couple of years has been doing some very exciting and innovative work that Martha is going to be talking to us about. Martha welcome to the program. Thank you very much. Okay before we get into what you have been doing in the last couple of years tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? What kind of work were you doing before you got to City Hall and so forth? Well before I came to City Hall my focus had been in two areas. One had been which led perfectly to this job was a match I never expected. But I had been doing the last three years trace work on doing house painting, landscaping, roofing jobs. And for me this was a chance to say you know I've been brought up in a family where there's four girls and one boy. These are jobs that we didn't do in my household. The girls worked inside and the boy did the job outside. And the rebellious side started coming out and said I want to do these jobs too. So I went out and got those jobs and learned really what it's like to start at entry level without the training at home. How could we keep attracting all these rebellious souls to the City Hall here in Burlington? I don't know. And before that I had been doing housing advocacy with the Mont Correlation and Handicap during a statewide housing advocacy project. And what I learned was that I needed to go on and work on issues that were really my issues. And the issues of women's work and women being empowered were clearly my issues and therefore I do the best job at that. And this was a good marriage. And this was ideal. What the City was looking for, the Community Economic Development Office was looking for two years ago was someone to design a training program for women who wanted to enter the trades. Martha explain a little bit what you mean by the trades. What is that? Trades are, we're looking at non-traditional trades for women. The traditional jobs for men which are carpenters, electricians, sheet metal workers. Okay. You use the word empowerment and you use the word non-traditional employment. What's the relationship between the two? Why will women be more empowered if they're involved in what has historically been non-women's work? Well, there are a number of parts of what empowerment is. One of the keys of empowerment is being able to find who you are and having a voice and a mechanism to express that. The second is money. You know, it's great to have a loud voice and have a desire for what you want to do, but if you don't have any money, you have no power in this country. Okay. And what you and I and all of the viewers know is that historically there have been jobs that have, without much thought in this country, have been quote-unquote men's jobs and there have been jobs which have been quote-unquote women's jobs and it didn't work in both ways. There are relatively few men's secretaries, although I think that barrier is breaking down. That's beginning to change. There are not all that many men's nurses and that's beginning to change a little bit. And certainly for women, there have been whole areas of economic opportunity that women have just not felt comfortable. The society has not said that the women carpenters, right. We've defined that women have certain physical attributes and physical mental attributes and therefore we can put them into certain kinds of jobs and men into certain kinds of jobs. And it's really limited who both men and women are. Right, exactly. And also we've said that the primary role that women have is to work in the home and it's clearly that women, whether you're still in a nuclear family or whether you're a single parent or a single person without children, you need to support yourself. And we look at the trade as a mechanism for having jobs that women can earn enough money to really be self-sufficient. To a large degree, and I think it's extraordinary that these stereotypes are changing rather radically in our country right now. I can remember 20 years ago that the idea of a woman doctor was thought to be pretty weird. And I remember a friend of mine, even 15 years ago, who was a lawyer here in the state of Vermont, had a lot of pressure on her being an attorney. And those things are radically changing. And also I think these are culturally determined. For example, in other countries around the world, women have been doing what we would consider to be non-traditional work for many years. And even during the war. Even in our time. That's right. My mother was a rosy. Is that right? Working a factory during the war? She worked in a machine trade shop. As many of the other women in the step-up program, their mothers, their aunts, they had also worked during World War II. Because the men weren't there to do the job. And our country said, yes, you can do this. You have the skill. We need you. So it's really a definition of what we want women to be doing at any specific time. And I think what we're saying is not really terribly complex, is that people, men and women, should have the opportunity to do the kind of work that they feel good about and they feel comfortable about. There is no reason that I can think of why if some man is interested in being a secretary or a nurse, he should feel uncomfortable about that. There's no reason why if some woman, as has been the case here in Burlington recently, wants to become a fire person, there's no reason why she should not feel comfortable and have that opportunity. So it's not really complex, is it? It's also really important, and I want to stress this, it's really important that we don't criticize the work that women have been doing. Women doing secretarial work is absolutely key to any business, to any office working well. Those jobs are as important as valuable. Unfortunately, they don't pay it well enough. Their work isn't seen as as valuable. And we're not going to get many men going into those jobs until those wages go up. But we're starting at where do women have a skill and where jobs open? Okay, so we're assuming that we want to break down traditional employment barriers and open up all jobs to all sexes. What are we in the city of Burlington doing? Well, we are first focusing on a trade position, as I mentioned. And the way that was looked at is we looked at who are the women in Burlington that most need better paying jobs? And primarily those are women who have been in sales positions, clerical positions, or women who are on welfare. They don't have the time or the money to go back to college. And many of them, what they really want to do is work through physical work. This is what they would be best suited for. And we looked at here in Burlington that there's a building going on in the Chittenden County. And women had less than 3% of those trade positions. So here is an opportunity where employers are needing more workers. We have an employment rate of under 2%. Now we need more workers. And the workforce that is available is women. But you can't just say, okay, we'll go out and hire them. We need to really nurture this idea. It's still new for businesses to be working for hiring women. But it's also still new for women to say, I really can do this. And a lot of the women don't have the background. They don't have the background. The background really starts back in seventh grade where they take industrial arts. My generation, your generation didn't have industrial arts for the girls. They have that now. So it's beginning to change. But we're working with women in their late 20s through 40s who didn't have that opportunity. So we, with the direction of the Burlington Women's Council, looked at the area of how to get women into trades in two directions. One was to look at creating an ordinance. And that's called Women in Construction Trades Ordinance. And the Women's Council said there are these jobs, but we need to encourage employers to hire women. And they worked for Women's Economic Justice Committee, worked for about two years, being very thoughtful in how do you create an ordinance that will work well for employers and will work well for women to get them into these trade positions. And what in April of 1986, we passed that ordinance. And it was passed 11th to 1. And that's important to point out. There wasn't something that was won by a 7th to 6th vote. It was almost unanimous. Okay, maybe you want to tell the viewers exactly what that ordinance mandates. Well, the Women in Construction Trades Ordinance is an ordinance that calls for all contractors who are working with the city. Using city money. City-funded projects. Now, let me just interrupt you here to say, as he indicated, there's a lot of work that's going on. And a lot of it is city-funded. For example, the Southern Connector Project will essentially be a $50 million project with some city funds. South Meadow. The South Meadow Project, in which the city received the Housing Development Action Grant. We are hopeful in praying that, in fact, the $52 million sewer project that we've negotiated with the state will, in fact, be approved by the legislature, which is going to require an enormous amount of work. We have an entire street repaving program that's going on. There's a lot of public works going on in this area. And what Martha is saying is that any project which involves city money or even federal money that goes through the city will have to fulfill other requirements enumerated in the ordinance. Right. And we looked at that. We said, you know, we don't want to have to deal with really small projects, because, you know, you have a really small company. They're not doing a lot of hiring. So we looked at projects that are over $50,000. We also looked at companies that are over for five employees. And what we're asking them to do is to meet a 10% goal of having 10% women in each of the trade positions. And what we have found in the very beginning is that there was fears, which we anticipated, by contractors who were saying, well, what if the women aren't out there? Are we going to have to lay off men so we can hire women? We said, no. We are looking at when you have a position that is open that you will do the recruitment that's much more proactive than the recruitment that you traditionally do in the trade and reach out to women and say, women are encouraged to apply to this job. And you put an ad in the paper, you say that. And then you contact organizations such as the step-up programs. They do have any women that have graduated that need a position. Okay. Jump from the ordinance to what's going on today. Has the ordinance worked? The ordinance is working very well. It's only one year in Acton. And already on the South Meadows project, we went from approximately 2% women working in those companies on the South Meadows project up to about 9% women. We haven't actually reached 10%, but 9% is doing quite well. And one of the ravine sewer projects we reached 15%. Southern Connector has, as they've gone through different phases that's gone beyond the federal 6.9% and fluctuated somewhere around 8% or 9%. And what kind of work are women doing? They're doing more than holding signs. In the beginning, we had meetings with people with Southern Connector and said, it's not going to be okay just to have women holding signs. And it's the very beginning, the first month, that's what's open. So women went in and took those jobs holding signs. Not making a bad living holding the signs, by the way. Absolutely not making a bad living holding signs. And it's one of the more difficult jobs. But if you get stuck in there, then you're in trouble. But they said, no, this is going to be stage one. And they followed through with their promise. And one of the graduates from the Step Up program, which I'll talk more about, is now a roller operator. She's no longer receiving A and FC, which is the welfare payments, and is supporting herself. How much is she making now? She's making $5.85 right now. She's still in a trained position. Any other state in the union should be making $10, right? She will be making $10 now. Wages in Vermont are lower than other places. But she is still in a training position. And she's learning something in her next job of the day. She's learning how to use study equipment, which are in road construction of the top-paying jobs. Okay, my impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you have a chicken and egg situation. Is that if girls, kids in high school, do not see opportunities out there for them, they're not going to be interested in getting trained, right? They're not going to see that as a possibility. On the other hand, they drive down Shelburne Road and they see women handling the heavy equipment. They're going to say, I'd like to do that. That pays pretty well. That's possible. Have you noticed an increase in interest among younger women in the possibility of doing building trades for them? I think to be honest that at the vocational center, and that's where you can look at numbers, the numbers are not changing as rapidly as we'd like to. But the daughters of the women and the sons of the women in the step-up program are already talking about, hey, my mom is a carpenter. I can do that, too. And the awareness that they're seeing, they're going to be the ones that will start changing. You've mentioned the step-up program on a number of cases. Why don't we jump to that and talk about that? Step-up for women is a job training program, specifically for women who want to work in the trades. And we have it at two sites in Vermont growing to being one of them. It's a program where low-income women, who are ready to go back to work or who have been working and want to get a job in the trades, come in for a 13-week training program. And what happens is they have a chance to explore a variety of trade areas. And they come out saying, I know what trade I want to go into, and I have the entry-level skills to get a job in that. Okay, and if I'm a low-income woman, how do I get involved in this program? Does it cost me anything? There's money for childcare, there's money for transportation, there's money for tools, so when you first go out on your first job site, you can get the tools that you need. And, again, the program is free of charge. Okay, how might somebody get involved in the program? Someone could get involved. Is it any time they can call me, Martha Whitney, in the Community Development Office? And the number there is 589300 extension 197. And come in and talk to me. Find out what the step-up program is. Okay, it is... Let me just jump in to say that it is, in fact, a very exciting program. I had the pleasure of attending the graduation last summer of a number of women from two sites together. Two sites together. Burlington and St. John'sburg. Burlington and St. John'sburg. And it was really very, very nice. I think there was an enormous amount of pride on the part of the graduates, the women who had undergone the training. They felt, and usually I'm not as... I don't praise these programs quite as much, but this one really looked very good. I think the people felt not only had they learned the skill, but they had more confidence in themselves. It was the people who were involved in the training really seemed to be concerned and very fine people. And the graduates seemed very excited about what they had accomplished. So if anybody out there is interested in getting more information, go back to those called Martha at City Hall, and that's 658-9300, the CETA office. And I'm sure Martha will be happy to sit down with you and explain to you. Very happy to meet with anyone who are interested in the program, or just give us your name, and we will send you out in the announcement for the next program, which will start in March. And... Where is the funding? The funding comes from... The funding comes from the Department of Employment and Training and Department of Education. And here in Burlington, we are sponsored by the City of Burlington, which is the only city, I believe, in the country that is sponsoring a trades program for women. That's something we should be very proud of, that we are recognizing women need training and that we are going to put our funding... And we are very proud of it. We're proud of the work that you are doing and other people are doing. You mentioned a little bit early if we could jump... I'd like to just say a little bit more about what the Step Up program is. I think it's very different than any other training program. And the reason it works is we recognize that women are not going to make it just if you teach them how to use a circular saw or run a backhoe. That women have had years and years of training about who they are and what their capabilities are. And our program looks at the program and we say, you know, you're going to have to go out there and you're going to have to be stronger than you ever thought that you had to be. And you can be that, but you've been told you can't. You have to prove you can't. So they work out in a gym for an hour and a half, every morning lifting weights. I lifted weights with them yesterday and I know it's hard work. And the strength that those women are developing physically also is telling them if they can break those barriers on those weights then they can break any other barrier. And then the second part of the program we do, we look at, it's called Women's Resources. And it's a very strong program in creating a self-esteem that will be what a woman needs to make it in a nontraditional field. And that, what comes out of those other pieces is it's fascinating to watch each part, the craft classes, the physical conditioning and the women's resources develop these women who say, oh, I get it. You're not teaching us just how to be carpenters. You're really giving us our self-esteem, aren't you? And yesterday, five women and step up from the very job site where they're working, got placed and they came back and go, aha, we finally get it. You know, this is really what's happening. We're changing who we are. That's right. And once you do that, you can do almost anything. It's fantastic. That's what I picked up at the graduation. Okay, the job bank that we're running in the city. We're starting now a job bank. It's actually been going on since we started the ordinance and we realized we really want to make this something that people hear about and can use to a greater extent. A job bank for tradeswomen. And what it is, is any woman, whether she's been working in the trades for five or ten years or whether she just wants to go in for the first time in the trades with or without experience. We have listings of jobs from contractors. For any jobs, it's going to be for jobs only paying $5 and more. It's like women really can't support themselves on less than $5 an hour. That's what minimum wage should be. And we will match jobs that employers have with women who are looking for those jobs. And again, the way women who are interested in getting their name with a job bank, as you call Linda Siegel or myself, Martha Whitney at the CEDA office. And we will put your name in the job bank. We'll find out what training you have, what tools you have, how much experience you have, what kind of job you're looking for. And when we have notices of jobs, we will send them out to you and that's up to you to do the rest. And for the viewers out there, this is not simply limited to Burlington residents. No. It's open to all women who have qualifications. And I also want to be clear, we're not taking over what job service does. We work very closely with job service. We have a very good relationship with them. But we also recognize that there really needs to be a step further for trades women. And there really needs to be more emphasis that women can have these jobs and it's something that we would like to get started and hopefully in the future maybe job service will take over this project. Okay. So once again, if there's anybody, any woman out there who's viewing the program who has skills in the trades area who would like to know what... Who wants to get into the trades. Right. And would like to know what employment opportunity is available to give us a ring. Okay. There's a third area that I want to touch upon briefly today and that is that you and I and some other people have been taking a look at our own situation within city government. And as a city, people may be surprised to know but we employ over 500 people in a wide variety of jobs and many of the jobs are what we call traditional blue collar jobs. And we have begun the process of studying the sexual composition of the jobs. And the truth of the matter is that what we learned was not particularly gratifying. Although not particularly surprising, I suspect. I suspect different... Not any worse than anybody else who would want to be better. Right, exactly. I think as we have been indicating, historically women have not been involved in trade jobs and that is absolutely the case for employment patterns here at the city government in Burlington. We looked at the Burlington Electric Department which had some, what we considered to be about 80 non-traditional type jobs. We found, I think, one woman employed there. And the public work situation is not any better. I think our police department has historically done quite well. What do we have? Eight or nine? I think it's about five women. It goes up and down. But they're doing very well there. They've looked at how do you get women in and they recognize the needs of women and their force and they've done very well with that. And people who may have seen the paper earlier this week will have noticed that for the first time in our history, we have the City of Burlington has hired a woman who is a firefighter and that's a major breakthrough. You also have a second woman who has just passed a physical exam. That's my understanding. Right. So we're making some progress there. You and I, Moth, have been chatting about affirmative action city-wide and we just had a meeting yesterday and why don't you summarize what we've been talking about perhaps. Well, what we recognize here, and I'll sort of reiterate a little bit what you said is that there are not women working to trade positions in the City of Burlington in non-traditional positions, except to the police department and now in the fire department. Those changes are excellent. But some of the best jobs are with the city or some of the better jobs are with the City of Burlington. We want to open up these jobs to women. And what we are looking at is creating an ordinance that's very comparable to the women in construction trades ordinance that we talked a little bit about earlier and saying that we want all city departments to do very active recruitment of women for trade positions. And not only to recruit women, but we also want them to hire women that are qualified. And we want them, and I'm going to explain a little bit what we're looking for at that. I know the papers will pick it up, is that if there is a man and a woman who both apply for the job and they both are qualified, we are going to be hiring women to fill those positions until we get more women into the department. And we are clearly looking only at women who are qualified for the department. That's important. This is a sensitive issue and it has an element of controversy attached to it. And the controversy attached to it is everything being equal, every employer including the city of Burlington looks at an application and says which person has the most experience, which person can step in tomorrow and do the job at. And that's what any good employer wants to do. That makes common sense. The problem that we have here is that if you have a history of discrimination in one form or another and you don't have people who have the background for the job, there is no way that they are ever going to be as qualified as other people who have that background. And I think my own feeling is so long as we are very careful, as Martha indicated, that nobody is hired who is not qualified to do the job. And that goes without saying. You're not going to hire anybody who is not qualified. What we are saying is that it makes sense to give women the head start here, give women the edge so that the time will come and it will come where you're not going to have to do that because you're going to have well qualified people all over the place and then you are going to pick the best person because you're going to have a tremendous pool of both men and women. And I think every year that we get more and more women into the trades and more and more women who become experienced with the work, the issue of affirmative action will become an irrelevant discussion in 10 years from now because you're going to have people there. So I think what we would like to do in the city is take the lead in the state, take the lead in the country if we can in breaking down these non-traditional barriers. The time is going to come. There's not the slightest doubt in my mind that in 20 years from now the idea of half of the blue collar workforce of God knows what the workforce will be in 20 or 30 years with automation will be women. Nobody will blink an eye. It's going to happen and I think we would like to see it happen sooner than later is essentially what we're talking about. I think we're running out of time I am very proud of what we are doing in CEDO and through your office. Our goal is to move as vigorously and as effectively as we can understanding that there are real problems there and I think one of the points that you made in terms of the women in construction trades audience is that we didn't just pass something and go bang on our way through. We talked a great amount with other people in the construction industry. We were very gratified to have the support of the Carpenters Union. Many contractors came out and spoke out and said you know some of the best employees I've had have been women. I want to have more women in our company. And I think the point that you've reiterated a dozen times now is also that we haven't been unreasonable in saying if somebody came in and said I can't find any qualified women workers we understood that and our job then is to get women who are qualified and not just having an ordinance without a new training program. And not being absurd and trying to bang somebody over the head for what can't be done but we are making real progress. I think the message that we're sending out to the entire community and to the women in our community is that if you're interested in non-traditional type employment stand up you have the opportunity to do any kind of work that you feel you would enjoy doing and the fact is that the building trades work everything being equal pays considerably more than a lot of other work and if you think you can do that you think you can enjoy doing that we have programs here in city hall to train you we have programs here in city hall to help you get the jobs that you are qualified for and that I hope and expect that every single year from now on in the community will be seeing more and more women working for city government in what had historically been non-traditional jobs and I think that perhaps in 10 years there will no longer be a phrase such as non-traditional, that's all men will do the work that they feel interested in no matter whether or not it has historically been quote unquote women's work and we're seeing that and we will see women breaking down barriers and doing work that traditionally has been quote unquote men's work and I think that's the best way to get the best kind of workforce people should do the work that they want and I think it will be great for economy and it will be great for the human spirit people should have the opportunity to do the work so we are making progress we will continue our progress and I thank you very much for joining us today