 Good morning and welcome to Vermont House Judiciary Committee. It is Friday, March 12th. Right. Did I get that right? Yep. Okay. And we are looking at H183 pertaining to sexual assault and consent and we have attorney Michelle Childs with us to review draft recommendations from House government operations regarding the council that is in this bill. So given time, I'm going to give it right over to Michelle. Thank you so much and committee. Thank you for coming early and addressing your schedules and your flexibility. So welcome Michelle. Good morning. Thanks. Good morning. Evan, can you give me the ability to share my screen? That's not the right version. Sorry. I've been having a little bit of trouble with screen sharing lately. Are we draft 1.1? Yes. We've got it on our computer. Can't we just go with it on our computers for now? Sure. Yeah. Can you see it now? Yes. Okay, great. So it says at the top draft recommendations from House government operations draft 1.1 from this morning. And I'm going to go down to the intercollegiate council and talk about the changes that they're going to discuss today. So they had a committee meeting yesterday and I walked them through the whole bill because they wanted to understand the context. And then they had discussion about some tweaks they wanted but they haven't. I just met with the chair about an hour ago and so they had the committee hasn't seen the changes yet. So you'll see the first one, first changes are in the membership. And you recall the earlier draft, the draft is introduced, had a Title IX coordinator from every institution of higher learning, appointed by the Vermont State Colleges. And their suggestion was and they had all the college folks in the room with them getting their feedback is they wanted to go with a Title IX coordinator and a campus based prevention education coordinator from an institution of higher learning appointed by the chancellor at Vermont State College then the same folks appointed by the University of the same folks appointed by the Association of Independent Colleges so instead of, I think I can't remember the number, but there was something like 11 or 13 there was a lot of people that were encompassed in one and so they've kind of whittled it down. And I believe all the witnesses were good with that. So this is on the top of page seven in subdivision six so you had in there that to college students, students appointed by the Center for Crime and services, and House of Ops wanted to kind of detail that out a little bit more so that of the two college students at least one of whom has lived experience as a sexual violence survivor, and one who represents a campus based racial justice organization. Michelle on the page top page seven amendment there. Say, so one, it's been detailed more for a sexual violence survivor a college age I'm assuming sexual violence survivor. What happens to a situation like that when you can't find somebody to, to fill that position. I got to believe that you know, especially at a young age. A lot of people may not be willing to come forward with their experience. You know, go public with it I guess and, but anyway, I could, it could be any other positions what happens if there's nobody to fill it. I haven't really run into that situation where people haven't been able to fill a position that they had authority to appoint to. I can tell you that this language that I that you have I worked on with Sarah Robinson from the network against domestic and sexual violence and she was supportive so I don't think they had any concerns that they would be able to identify. I don't know if they were someone right okay. I don't want to just, is it okay to. I'm just don't know if you can see my hand raised. I can see Selena. Yep. I really it's not a question for you Michelle just to Tom's question I just wanted to I think it's a good question like what happens if you just can't find the person. I think the previous task force finite task force on this issue that I served on we had. I think it called for at least three college age survivors of sexual violence and we had no problem finding folks to step up and come forward and just just for your just to. I was going to say to comfort you but that's probably not really a comforting reality but you know what I'm saying that. Yeah, people that people were there were more than enough people to fill more more roles with that criteria and a previous. Yeah, and just coming from, from, you know, from my world, you know, whatever, whatever that may be, it just seems like it could be a potentially tough spot to fill but. Yeah, again, you know, you use the word comfort and I want to say that it's good that you, but not meaning that it's good that you know that people are stepping up it. Thank you. There are changes in subdivision nine. And so you had in there a prosecutor. And they wanted to clarify that it should be a prosecutor with experience and prosecuting sexual violence cases and, and then they put in the AG is the appointing authority and Rory was in that committee meeting and he was good with that. So that's what their recommendation is. And then the last one is subdivision 10, which is an attorney with experience and sexual violence cases appointed by the defender general. So those are the recommendations for the membership. Subsection C subdivision two. This is just a small word tweak and oppression of highlight the whole thing but before it said an anti review of climate surveys and I had had to move on to another committee so I didn't hear this testimony but I guess some of the colleges said something about all this information and whatever and so the change is just going, going to more like reviewing the data that they have. And if you need more information about that I may have to have you speak with either one of the stairs because I'm sorry I wasn't in the room for that discussion. And then the last change is that the council meets quarterly. And again that was that was recommended by the colleges and the other witnesses supported it. So can you remind us had the, I'm sorry for just jumping in but had had the building silent on that or where they said yes or regular. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Those are the suggestions. Does anybody have anything you want me to take back to them when I go in there later this morning. I mean, I, you know, it, it seems reasonable to me I like the fact that they, you know, have just the, you know, the one representative from UVM and from state colleges I was concerned that it was getting quite large and will unwieldy so I think this does, does make sense. And, and Sarah and I had talked about the Attorney General is the appointing authority that makes sense as well so Tom. Thank you. Yeah, I don't have any, any issues with any of these changes, but I'm going to go back to the kind of the question that I had before, and it doesn't matter any specific. It could be any of the appointees to the, to the panel or study or whatever. And so what happens if it doesn't matter. I'm not talking about, you know, the sexual assault survivors what happens if there's somebody that can't be appointed to a position. I got a, I got to imagine that the study group goes on anyway doesn't it will just remember. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen but I've been here for 20 plus years and staffed a lot of these committees and I never, never saw this anybody having a hard time finding somebody to appoint. Right, right. And that's kind of what I figured but I would hate to see something come to a screeching halt just because. And that's not no if somebody doesn't do it there's no, there's no enforcement mechanism there's no like you can't move forward, whatever, you know sometimes people are late in appointing people and or people and the person shows up one every four meetings and you know that kind of stuff but just is what it is. Yeah, yeah I guess I just didn't have to make people do this stuff. Right. Yeah, I just didn't have enough experience with it I guess to know, you know, kind of an in the weeds question but. All right, great. Thank you. So I just got a text from the chair of ops, and she says I'm so sorry but I forgot to suggest a sunset for the council. So practices in our committee to trigger a revisitation of councils created to be sure they're still useful. Can please add a sunset after seven years. So, before I do that, I just want to run that by you see if you are okay with that and then I'll draft it up onto their amendment and then they'll review and then once we meet at lunch I can incorporate it in but. So seven years that's interesting so that must be is that I'm assuming they use. That's their standard. Yeah, yeah. I defer to them I mean it's fine with me if that's. It does make sense to make sure that that councils commissions whatever so relevant and seven is their number. That's fine with me if committee members want to join in. Yeah I don't have any problem with that. It seems like a long time to wait to see if a council is working well but I defer to them to. I'm sure you'll be you know one of the primary things that the council supposed to be doing is making recommendations to you for anything so there's I would expect that council is going to be in communication with the general committee and so lots of time, not lots of opportunity to kind of check in with them. So, okay so I'll add the sunset. Yeah, yeah that's fine. Okay. Right. Okay. Great. All right, thanks and so you'll get back to us, you know, during during lunch. Yeah, so do you want to set a time because I also have a bill in the Senate that is trying to get voted out but they're waiting for recommendations from two other committees. And I don't think they're going to finish up so I think they may have to vote a bill over the lunch hour to is there a time that you want to kind of book me for that, so that I can just kind of hold that space for you. Yeah so what's your window is between 12 and 130 you said. Yeah, I guess I'm finishing up in gov ops at 1145 so maybe give me till 1215 to incorporate their changes into your draft. Okay, yeah I was thinking of thinking of later what can folks remind me if there are things going on during the lunch hour like either workshops or caucuses or anything that folks like caucuses from 12 to one and different meetings scheduled at noon but I can be flexible and moving around and prioritize. I was going to say I moved my nine to 12 but I probably, well let's do one o'clock then it sounds like it sounds like one o'clock. Right. Works for me. So Evan will you just send me like a half an hour notice for one o'clock. Great. I'm 183 and yeah and then I'm still planning on coming back 15 minutes after the floor this morning unless it's it. You know like 12 or something like that but I don't think we're going to be on the floor that long. So, okay, great and then so. I'm sorry. Oh, you have a question I'm sorry go ahead Barbara. I knew the network is struggles with resources as a nonprofit. Will they have adequate resources to cover the staffing and expenses they'll fully need to do this. If they get the appropriation. I mean that's that's my understanding. And they're, they're asking for what it will cost them or were they given a number that they could have. They picked the number. What they picked the number. Okay. And Michelle, can you help us understand when our legislative council staffs, you know some commissions and not others and that question has come up and it might come up again as to why let's council is not staffing this one. We have legislative members on the committee on the council, and we are your attorneys. You can't just like farm us out to people who aren't our clients. You know it raises issues around conflict. You know, because if, if I was staffing that and then they are coming to you with recommendations, and it's not coming from any of my clients. Then I'm kind of, I'm proposing something, you know that they're advocating and kind of lobbying you want, essentially, so. Thank you. I think that's helpful. I think it's important for, for us and others to, to understand appropriations is is aware of this and the other appropriation in the bill they do have the language in the sections. So, can I ask a follow up to that so Michelle, if there was, if there was one or two legislators on it. Does that I mean I'm just curious does that affected or would that still be the same situation. I mean if the, if the vast majority of people on there are not our clients I mean it's really, you know I mean you can imagine it said. Right, I just was trying to figure out a lot of committee, a lot of study committees a lot of stuff like that if, if we just became everybody else's lawyers I mean we just were a skeletal staff as it is in terms of serving 180 members and we have plenty of legislative studies that and committees we have to do during the interim so it's just, you know, there's not like a hard line there but it can't just be that you can throw on a couple. Sure, and sometimes I do have to a 14 member pardon. Sometimes the AG's office has sort of offered up people for certain summer things are not that I'm saying they would in this case but that seems like the other resource that's been popped up in my time on judiciary at least for work committees. Right, right. Well, we'll see what appropriation says. And that's cool. And then take it, take it from there. So, okay, great. Thanks. Yeah, thank you and actually so Michelle but everything else in the bill we've got that updated draft right because nothing else is. I haven't changed anything. All right, so same thing. Okay. All right, thank you. Okay, great. Okay, great. All right. Okay, good morning everybody I'm seeing faces that I hadn't seen before. Coach actually just got his, his vaccination so he does it I know. I thought he would have better service where he is but doesn't so that's why he is not with us right now so. Okay, so. So Barbara your hand is up. From before or. Or do you have a question or comment. That's true. All right, Ken, I see your hand up. Okay. Okay. What happened. I'm sorry. Am I messed up again. No, no, no, I just can't hear you. Can you hear me now. Yeah. So the Washington or Rory. Had a big hand in this 183 and I should have jumped on this before is he also is he okay with these changes. Changes meaning what house government operations. Well this amendment. With this amendment or what they're changing. Okay. I did Michelle say whether or not they were in the room. I'm not sure and I'm not sure how, how that piece actually impacts the. The state's attorneys I think the only section that of the study really would be that they're weighing in as the appointing authority there is a section on whether you know somebody. So basically whether the appointed by the AG's office or the state's attorneys and house government operations is sticking with. With the attorney generals but I would think Rory would be okay on this and the rest of the changes that they made really are more relevant to, to higher education. So, I think that the main part that Rory. Right. So I. Go ahead. Good. Go ahead. No, I cut you off to go ahead. I'm just more concerned about. I don't have a call. I'm not sure. I don't have a call. The. I just got all kinds of, of kids up there and, and different types of kids that are. Intermediate. But the university that I'm looking right at right now. I mean, might fall into a different answer. Yeah, that's just some of my concerns. I thought up too late. I'm sorry, but no, no, no, no, no. And that is why I don't have. Yeah, my understanding from what Michelle just said is that that the representatives from the educational educational institutions were there and there is a organization actually Kimberly works right and I'm going to I'm going to mess up the. But anyway, Barbara somebody but but anyway they represent all the independent. Yeah, Vermont Association of Independent Colleges. Right, right. Kimberly work there. Yeah, yeah. And so, so my understanding is that they were in the room. So I think I'm there to think I'm hearing two different concerns one is about the institutions right and then one is about the state's attorneys. So I think in terms of jurisdiction Lee. The institutions that that's where House government operations was looking at at the educational institutions. And, and House government operations and our education committee have been in in contact and decided that house that government operations was the more appropriate committee to look at this council. I don't, I don't know if I'm answering your question or if I'm confusing. No, no, you did I just hope. I can check. Yeah, I can check. Yeah, I can check in with. I can check in with worry. And yeah. I think too. Because there's two appointees of each college type. There's a, the title nine coordinator which is like a very focused role for, you know, when formal complaints come forward and then there's, I can't remember the language but there's the more of the kind of prevention and outreach work on the campus so that for each college or university type there's the possibility of at least two appointees plus the two student spots and so it's it's pretty similar makeup at this point in this way to the task force that I served on, and it did feel like a real mix of like, you know, every college wasn't in the room for sure for all things although there was nothing. There are public meetings and stuff so there was nothing like sometimes people who weren't members of the task force still came and participated in the discussion and gave testimony but it did feel like a really strong mix of folks of a mix of like state colleges and colleges and UBM and students from all over and it seems like constructed this one. Right, thank you and I just note that also Kate noted that worry was, was in house government operations so. Yeah, so I. I think they'll, you know, he will be a met and what house government operations has come up with does look reasonable and I think in terms of the other part of the bill worry certainly was very involved with, and I thought his testimony was very helpful yesterday. So, in terms of this, this bill, I would like to vote it out today. We're not going to do it this morning because we need to hear back from government operations. I did mention before we went on the record and I will mention now on the record that we did receive a letter dated today from mad freedom with signed by will do why we've been working quite a bit with who has asked us to postpone our vote on the bill until she can testify and I guess some some concerns that I do think we addressed yesterday however, what I'm thinking and I will ask committees members to think about this. Given that it's crossover I would like to vote this bill out today. So we can go, you know, to meet one to meet crossover and then because it does have appropriations in it it will, it will go to appropriations and so next week. So we can, we can hear from will do we can look at these concerns and then. And then if we want to make an amendment or whatever. We can do that but at least I very much value her. Her legal expertise and do want to give a consideration so just throwing that out there. I'm seeing Barbara nod. And others yeah, like that approach. Yeah, I mean I would. I would be unable to really support this bill unless you look a little further at this particular issue. I've been reading reading the letter that we received the man freedom and agree that we need to give it some more consideration but the bill is really, I think very important it's very close and we need to pass it out so I think we should go to appropriations and hopefully next week. And I don't think it would just be mad freedom but we probably want to bring in disability rights. Absolutely. Other. Yeah, so have kind of a full vetting of the particular issue and and see what we can do to modify the language and right. Right. Okay, right. That's a. Thank you Barbara. Let's see. So if we do that which sounds great. Is there any way for us to post that so people don't just see that it got voted out and feel like they didn't have to like, how can we make sure will do or others that wanted to weigh in. Don't feel like we didn't. We weren't responsive to them in the short, you know, until next week or whatever. Well, I'm, I'm going to respond to her as soon as I can. Yeah. And I also will share her tests, her testimony is posted if not it will be and I also will share it with Rory and disability rights. As soon as as soon as I, I can assuming my multitasking skills. But, but no absolutely I will. I will let her know and then talk to our colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. Selena. 35 overhead so sorry if I get drowned out. Yeah. So, yeah, we could also just one other thought we could post a draft agenda for next week sooner rather than later, even if it's not all the way filled in and we know it needs to needs to change but that just signals like, you know, that we intend to have some committee time with these with these witnesses. Thank you. You know that's a great idea and gender. We do get the agenda posted on on Friday so yeah I think Tuesday afternoon at 115 we're back in here on on this with with will to Rory, David share disability rights. I'd see if and Donna he wants to know that hopefully things have freed up a little bit for the health care committee to see if and wants to weigh in as well. Okay, great and hopefully Evan you're hearing this and we'll go over this later. Okay. All right well thank you everybody I'm watching the time for the floor, and then we'll make so. So, we'll get back after the floor, and we've got 145, and then we'll have 183 and then forfeiture hopefully will have you talk about that. And see where we are. All right, great. Thank you everybody.