 Aloha. I'm Marcia Joyner and we are talking about a 10,000 year odyssey. So tell me Muse of that plant and any resources which wandered far and wide. The ancient plant of food, fuel, and fiber cultivated for millennia. As we venture through the past 10,000 years, we will explore and discover the plant from which cannabis derives. The many uses of the plant, hemp, cannabis, hashish, cannabis and religion, cannabis and medicine, cannabis and uncle plant. So that's where our odyssey begins. Today, our odyssey is not long ago and far away. It is current and in progress. The growing debate of medical cannabis, federal power versus state rights. And who better to talk about the difference in federal power, state power, not with cannabis and other things of course, is our own home. Doug Chen, our attorney general and hero, yay. Thank you. Well, that's quite a dead chuck. When it comes to state's rights. So for the last, what, 5,000 years, cannabis has been used as medicine. And so we are going to talk about the medical use of cannabis, the state's rights and the feds. And so where do we begin? The state passed a bill, an ordinance, a bill, or whatever. A bill. A law. It's a law in 2000. Correct. And yet we're still stumbling with it. Right. Right. So and now we have our darling, darling little elf that we call the attorney general, the U.S. Attorney General, Jeff Sessions. So he has decided all of that has to go. So where are we? What do we do? How do we move from where we are to what is going on in the world? Okay. The state's rights. Let's talk about state's rights. Sure. Sure. Okay. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about this. And I think I can answer your questions. So and I think it'll be really interesting for your viewers to hear about this because I think that's one of the things that people always try to figure out is, you know, how do we, how do we reconcile the two different systems that we live in? So all of us live in the United States. So we're under federal law and federal jurisdictions. But then we're also part of the state of Hawaii, which has its own laws and its own, its own policies as far as what it wants to promote and how it wants to prioritize things. So whenever you have a conflict, like you have right now that we're going to talk about, then I think that creates an interesting situation. So like you said, back in 2000, Hawaii was one of the very first states, if not the first state to pass a bill that legalized medical marijuana. But one of the things that happened is when that bill was passed, there actually was no mechanism for how it would be delivered to the people who actually needed it. So that didn't occur until just a couple of years ago, 2015, 2016, it was just a curve. I'm not keeping all my years straight. But two years ago, two years ago, they just passed a law that allowed for the creation of medical marijuana dispensaries. That's where we're at right now. Where we're in the state, what's been legalized is not just medical marijuana, but I think what's even more important to people and what's made it more visible is the fact that now we have eight licensed dispensaries, of which a few of them have already opened up and are starting to dispense medical marijuana to people who have a license to use medical marijuana. But that's what we have in the state. By the license, you mean the card? Correct. The card that you get from the state? That's correct. And this is something that a medical professional has certified as the other person has, one of the reasons for why somebody needs to use medical marijuana that's in the statute. And then they go to the Department of Health and get a license to use that. And if you do that, then you're able to go to one of these medical marijuana dispensaries, not just anybody, but licensed people. So if you have a card, you can go buy it? That's correct. That's okay. Can't buy it for anybody else? No, no. Can't send in somebody else to buy it for you? You have to buy it for yourself. Of course. And that's how that works. Okay, so that's what we have here in the state laws. Recreational marijuana, just to be clear, is still illegal in the state of Hawaii. No, no, we're talking about medical marijuana. Okay, we're talking about medical marijuana, no problem. Okay, great. Well, I won't touch that. So then we get into a lot of other issues on that. I'm great talking about medical marijuana, so I'm great. To see, I have a real issue about that. We have people in Washington, D.C., doing treason, and they're walking around, and then we got a kid on the street with one ounce of marijuana and he's in jail. So that's so good. Okay, I won't touch that button. Thank you. Thank you for warning me. Okay, so then on the other hand, you have a federal system or bottom line, let's just say, this is the fact. Marijuana, any type of use, is against federal law, period. It is a schedule one drug. And as long as that is the case, then under federal law, it will be illegal to use. So here you go. So for all of us who are watching this show, how do you reconcile those two things? So I'm ready to talk about that. Okay. About four years ago, five years ago, then the Department of Justice under the Obama administration had put out a memo where essentially what they did is they said that so long as any state, and that's not just Hawaii, but the other states that have legalized marijuana in some form, as long as these states have a well-reticulated system of enforcement and administration over their state laws, then what the Department of Justice was going to do is they were saying, we're going to treat the enforcement of marijuana laws, our federal marijuana laws, as a very low priority. If, however, we get the impression this is the federal government talking, if, however, the federal government gets the oppression that the states are not regulating their industry closely or administering things properly, then the federal government reserve the right to come in at any time and continue to enforce their federal laws. That was under the Obama administration. That memo has never been retracted, but what we have now is, we have, as you referred to, US Attorney General Sessions, who's made a lot of statements saying that he personally finds the use of marijuana to be absolutely illegal in any form or in any, for any reason. But those statements sitting here right now have not been followed up with any official policies or any orders that have come. So, sitting here right now, we're left with that same memo that existed under the Obama administration as the, you know, what we're supposed to take is kind of the default in terms of how the federal government is looking at us. That's, that creates a lot of uncertainty. Honestly, you know, for, not just for Hawaii, but for many other states, you know, like Colorado, Washington, Oregon, you know, even California now. So, in all of these states, you know, attorneys general, just like me, are really watching the federal government closely to see, you know, what, what they're planning to do next. Now, this one, of course, is 1972, but it says, Congress grants the attorney general the power to determine whether or not marijuana should be rescheduled to schedule two. That's you, the state's attorney general. And so, you know, the whole thing says that you have the power to do that. I actually think that that means the U.S. Attorney General. No, it goes into the states. It goes into the states. Okay. Yeah. Well, because it's really, come on, it's the other issues bigger than this. And so, if you take it from a schedule one down, then it's not, doesn't have the same issues in terms of enforcement. Right. So, I am pretty sure that for, in the state system, for marijuana to be moved down a schedule, it would definitely take legislation. So, it's not just something that I could just be able to make that an ounce of legislation to do that. However, even if the, I think here's the sticking point for your viewers, is that even if the state were to do something like that, you still have a federal law that keeps marijuana at the, at the schedule one level. And I think everybody out there agrees that it is so unlikely that Congress or that the federal government will reschedule the drug and we're kind of left the situation that we're at. So, there's another issue here because of our geography that the couple of dispensaries are here, but you have people all across the state that have a card. How do they transport the, if they come to Oahu and they buy an ounce or two, however they buy it, how do they go back to Kauai, Maui, what am I? Right. Correct. I think that's a, that's a problematic issue that you're identifying. So, and I think that is the reason why when the legislature legalized medical marijuana dispensaries, at least for this first go around, they tried to put, you know, some on each island in order to prevent that problem. Here's what I've always explained to people is this is that what makes Hawaii very unique is that the boundaries of the state only extend a couple miles offshore. And once you go beyond those boundaries, you're not in the state of Hawaii anymore. You're in the U.S., but you're not in the state of Hawaii. And so technically what happens is that if somebody gets on a plane, which by the way is regulated by the FAA, so it's regulated by the federal government, but technically even if they get on the plane with marijuana and they are legally allowed to have medical marijuana because they're licensed and they have it, once they get a few miles offshore of Oahu, say, in order to get to, until they get a few short miles from Maui, then they're violating federal law because they're no longer in the jurisdiction of Hawaii. So that makes us different because sometimes I've heard people bring up the fact that, oh, Oregon is now allowing people to be able to transport on a plane their marijuana from place to place. The difference between Oregon and Hawaii is that you can fly from Portland to Eugene or to the southeastern part of Oregon without ever leaving Oregon. When you fly out of Oahu, you leave Hawaii and then enter back into Hawaii. Okay. So here is this Commerce Clause. Yes. So tell us about a Commerce Clause. Okay. The Commerce Clause is part of the Constitution and it's basically put in place in order to allow there to be, generally speaking, to allow there to be a free flow of commerce between the state. So here we go back to a long time ago because this is Chief Justice Marshall and he talks about the fact that this Commerce Clause, that the Fed should not get in the way of transporting the marijuana legal, medical marijuana. And he says, here we are dealing with medically ill patients who will be cultivating marijuana in their own backyard and using it as necessary. Anyway, he says we shouldn't criminalize those people for transporting it. And this was the Supreme Court. Sure. Sure. Well, I mean, you can have statements like that that are made by different judges or justices, but the fact remains is that, you know, as far as the federal government is concerned, even under the Obama administration, they weren't going to allow this kind of... They're transporting. Right. But there are like, you take the Big Island, for instance. You know, how long it takes to drive from Hilo to Conra? Sure. Right. Right. So even if there is, I don't know if there is a dispensary there. Right. You know, that... You know, I mean, I think that's a... So my own sense of what the legislature was trying to accomplish. I'm not a legislator, but my own sense was that they were trying to take a baby step forward. In other words, I think people who are proponents of having medical marijuana dispensaries certainly envision that there would be more than eight. But I think that in order to get the bill passed and to have consensus from the legislators, I think there were other people who were very concerned about making sure that if we roll this out that we do it properly. And a big reason for making sure that we do it properly is because we have that department of Justice memo that hangs over us, which tells us that we all need to make sure that whatever system we put in place, we're putting it in place in a very careful and well-administered manner. So to me, I think it's a baby step. I think, you know, you bring up a great point that, you know, even this baby step isn't helping everybody, but it's a step forward. So it, you know, it moves us, it moves the ball. Yeah. Well, we need to take a break. And then when we come back, we'll talk about what schedule one means. Okay. Okay, great. This is Think Tech Hawaii, Raising Public Awareness. A program on Think Tech Hawaii we show at three o'clock in the afternoon every other Monday. My guests are specialists both from here and the mainland on energy efficiency, which means you do more for less electricity and you're generally safer and more comfortable while you're keeping dollars in your pocket. Hello, and I'm back. I'm Marcia Joyner, and we are visiting today with my darling, darling friend and our hero, Doug Chen, the attorney general for the state of Hawaii. What is schedule one? What does that mean? We hear a lot about cannabis, medical cannabis hemp, all of that on schedule one. What is schedule one? That's a great question. I appreciate that. So basically, the drugs are categorized under the laws into various schedules. And so all it means is that schedule one is the most serious form of illegal drugs. And so right now under federal law, then marijuana is on that list. So as is cocaine, as is heroin, they're all together. Okay. That's how it is. That's how it is, Marcia. It's right there. And then what happens at schedule two is more like it's more like very, very strong legal type of medications, but ones that need to be heavily regulated. So it kind of goes from the higher number that you go, schedule one, schedule two, schedule three, higher number that you go, then the less regulations are required. Of course, schedule one has no regulations because it's just boom, it's just illegal. So I'm under federal law. And so that's where it's at. But by your reaction, by your response, I'm already seeing that you're noting what I think many people have observed, which is that perhaps marijuana is not something that should be part of that. Nobody's ever died from an overdose of marijuana. But alcohol is legal and people die from it all the time. The opiate addiction is legal. It's not a schedule one and nothing is more horrible than that stuff. I can give you some great background on that. I know exactly why that's the case. I've been in law enforcement. I've been a prosecutor since the mid 90s. So one of the things that I always remember early on, in fact, I'll go back even further. I think when I was growing up and in school, learning about illegal drugs and being told that we shouldn't be using it, I think what's always happened is there has been a narrative that basically described marijuana as a gateway drug. In other words, so maybe marijuana is not as serious as some of these other drugs. But using marijuana leads to using more serious substances. I remember hearing that when I was growing up. And then in law enforcement, I also remember that being just a common theme, a common narrative that would be described. I think that narrative is being challenged now. But I don't think it's been overturned. I mean, I think there's a lot of people who still feel very strongly, hey, I grew up believing marijuana was a gateway drug. And I think that's why we're where we're at. Yeah. And even the name is racist. Oh, good. Marijuana is racist. Right. Oh, and that's why you're saying cannabis. Yes. Okay. The state of Hawaii has changed to medical cannabis. Yes, you're right. Based on that was a derogatory term. And again, we see people, the jails are full of young people with an ounce of marijuana. And we've got people walking around this very state with rap that long, because there's no room for them. Right. So what do we do? Yeah. Well, I see we push that button. That's the one that you feel very strongly about. But my point about that is that what I think is you're making a very good observation. Because I think that same time when you had that narrative that I grew up with and everybody in my generation felt what was the sense of drugs being a gateway to something. Marijuana or cannabis being a gateway to something worse. It was at the time when there was a war on drugs, when there was a very common saying that the way that we address crime in the United States is to get rid of drugs and to have very strict penalties for people who use drugs. That's how we're going to stop the scourge of rising crime rates. Whether that's true or not, that's just how it was back then. And honestly, I think that's how U.S. Attorney General Sessions feels. I've been in meetings with him where that is exactly what he says. He says he first became an assistant attorney general in the state of Alabama back in the 60s. And he remembers there was a war on drugs going on at the time. Unfortunately, he then ties in drugs with immigration and brings in a lot of other touchy points for people that certainly I disagree with. But he brings in a lot of those things. But I'm saying that's where, maybe the lesson that we learned from that is that's where the narrative often ends up dictating how criminal justice policies end up the way they are and how we end up with the situation that we have. But even with hemp, the plant, the part of it that you use for industrial hemp, for making things, for treeless paper, Henry Ford created automobiles out of hemp. And yet it's on that same schedule one. Nobody's ingesting it. So why is it on it? There is a great reluctance to move it off. It makes no sense. None of this makes sense. When you think how many trees we cut down to make toilet paper when you can use hemp to make paper, why are we... I'm just floored. The more I learn about this, the more I am just like, this is all too much. Like I said, no one has ever died from an overdose of marijuana. No one has ever died from an overdose of hemp, if whatever that is. Yet people die from the... I'm sitting in a hemp chair. No one's ever died from that. You're going to have rope or something like that. And yet people, the doctors write prescriptions for stuff that will kill you. So how do we move from this kind of nonsense to something that makes sense? The state took the first step, like you said, in creating medical cannabis. Okay. But $500 an ounce. Who can do that? And then there's, that's okay. You have a card. All right, Marcia, here's your card. You can grow 10 plants. Where can I grow 10 plants? How do I grow 10 plants? I don't know how to do this. Where do I go? How do I do it? I don't know. So back to you. How do we move... What will it take for us, the state of Hawaii, the people, ordinary, everyday people? How do we move from this crazy nonsense into something that makes sense? Well, I love the fact that your title of this show is a 10,000-year journey, because I think it just shows you that you got to be in it for the long game in terms of really trying to turn around people's perceptions and feelings about things, because some of it might be legitimate, some of it might be totally false. Honestly, I gotta tell you, I'm kind of a proponent for taking those baby steps. Like, in other words, I think it becomes problematic if you try to, you know, push too hard to move something through, because then it creates a great sense of resistance on the other. That's just the dynamic that I see happen. So to me, I actually felt like when the legislature passed their medical marijuana dispensary law, I think they were very careful to try to create a system that was small, that was manageable, and then from there, as the state could prove that it was up to the task of being able to administer it properly and that nothing dangerous was occurring, then I think the public would be, if that is what happens, then I think there's a better argument to move the ball forward even more. If that doesn't happen, then I think that's a good argument to really keep a tight reign on it. Anyway, that's how I see it. It's not so much keeping a tight reign. How do we go from here, where we are today? Oh, it's people like you having these talks, just so that you can get people to think about those things, because I really think that so much of, especially for cannabis and people's attitudes towards it and everything, it really comes down to a lot of perceptions. I just think about my own unconscious biases that I have. I've thought about that a lot recently and just how, with cannabis, that's one of those things. It's what I grew up as a kid learning, gateway drug. I didn't smoke it, because I thought, no way. I don't want to do something worse. Even now, when I'm talking about this, I always have this level of discomfort, because for me, I'm getting more comfortable, but it's not where I'm at. But that's what we said about this 10,000-year journey, because I'm learning. I knew nothing when we started this show. Absolutely nothing. And so the whole premise, the whole idea is to invite people like you, our other guests, that have knowledge, that come from a really solid background with some people with medical experiences and whatnot, so that we can learn, so that we do begin to understand what this is and what it can be and what it's not. And you know what I will say? For what it's worth, my own sense of it is that I do think that the public is more accepting of medical marijuana use in certain instances, certainly for life-threatening diseases or chronic pain or something like that. And we have a more aging population, so I think more people are aware of that. There you go. Well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you. And you will come back and do this process. I'll be here for the next 10,000 years. Okay. I will just be fossils. I'll tell you about her. Our cannabis journey. Thank you so much. Thank you. Aloha, and we'll see you next week.