 Good afternoon everyone. A very warm welcome to the Festival of Politics 2023. My name is Clare Adamson. I'm the MSP for Motherwell and Wisha and convener of the Constitution, Europe, Excelling Affairs and Culture Committee of the Scottish Parliament. I'm delighted to be here today to our panel discussion on the future of Scotland's arts and culture. I'm delighted to be hosting this on behalf of the Parliament and the Edinburgh International Festival. We will have a short panel discussion with comments from the panel and then I'm hoping to open it up to the audience to get your thoughts and participation in a conversation this afternoon. I'm delighted to be joined by Jeane Cameron. Jeane is an internationally respected freelance culture leader based in Glasgow and is the chair of the Centre for Contemporary Arts in Glasgow and the trustee of the National Theatre of Scotland. Fran Heddie is the OBE, is the chief executive of the Edinburgh International Festival and has worked in culture, the arts and major events for more than 25 years, including London Organising Committee for the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Moira Jeffery, who is the director of Scotland's Contemporary Art Network, scan and member led organisation which connects and champions Scotland's contemporary art community that includes art galleries, community organisations and venues together with individual artists across Scotland. So we're delighted to have such a well Kent panel and such expertise available to us this afternoon. So I'm going to open with a question just about this morning we had a discussion of the future of broadcasting and we talked about how people's consumer attitudes have changed and how people consume broadcasting in very, very different ways and we're now in a post-Covid world we're facing cost of living crisis and the challenges. So just to get a feeling of what they feel are the biggest challenges to the culture sector in Scotland at the moment and any insights into innovations that they would like to see coming forward and I'll perhaps start with Jean on this. Thank you for inviting me to be here, it's good to see you and good to see a really great audience so there is a blinding light there and good but good to see familiar faces in the room so hopefully there'll be plenty of time for discussion. I think colleagues especially from an advocacy point of view Moira will talk about headline figures and Fran has talked very eloquently about financial challenges in the Scotland and Sunday piece facing what's facing the festival. So maybe I think one of the big challenges I'd like to talk about is experience and I just think that there is a real challenge in terms of how we connect with as wide anodians, as how we co-create our culture, how we invite people in, how we are, it feels to me that post-Covid the national conversation changed and shifted and we talk about that a lot at National Theatre Scotland and it feels like actually it's okay that we still don't know what's next exactly where do we go from here that EIF talk about but actually there's something about being brave and holding that space for change that I think is a real real challenge in terms of how to hold that quite expansively and in terms of work in terms of deepening our connection with everybody's potential in Scotland everybody's creativity actually how do we engage people to say actually that this is something that you can see yourself in or actually the best ideas may come from you so that dynamic of communication and experience is something that I think we need to shift how we talk to potential participants audience members and I'm going to give you an example of something I thought was great and I saw it this week and I was just at Market Street coming off the train from Glasgow and it's a real flurry of posters out there for all the different festival shows etc that the one that caught the poster and it was on the street so it was on the street one before I tell you what it was it wasn't something that I had to have signed up to a social media channel for I didn't have to be engaged already with that particular organisation it was just happenstance and I saw it in the the the street and it was the fringe and it was the fringes sensory backpacks there was a there was a big poster competing about you know there was all this stuff about shows but there was a picture of a kid with a beautiful sensory backpack there saying we at the fringe have these available to you and I thought gosh actually that might be the one thing if I can see myself if it's that thought of my own friends and the young people thought that's the thing that's going to make me want to experience the fringe we'll take it from there I know that I feel welcome resourced and I thought that was great fantastic um Moira from your own organisation and the the area you come from what what do you see as the biggest challenges and so I'm looking with some anxiety about this the future um I'm not sure that I can see the future but I hope we might be able to talk about the future and build the future together that seems really important um the pandemic really taught us that we couldn't see what was coming down the line it also taught us how significant culture was for people's sense of themselves for their health and well-being and it taught us that we can cope with crisis um I think we're actually in a perpetual state of crisis I'm you know happy to talk culture budgets if somebody wants to but it's not just that the planet is on fire we're living through a cost crisis we seem to have a massive crisis of inequality currently in the united kingdom and in that context I think we have to think about what are the skills that we need for the future how do we want to shape the future so I would flip this title that rather than saying what's the future of Scotland's arts and culture I would say that Scotland's arts and culture is our future I was lucky enough this year to speak at a graduation ceremony um it was the one at Glasgow School of Art um sadly I obviously not in the the GSA building but at the Bute Hall at the University of Glasgow with all these amazing young people and I was speaking to the people who were graduating in architecture um and in fine art and those people are the people who are going to build our future they're the people who are going to build our livable cities our green neighbourhoods our carbon adapted buildings they are the people who are going to have the skills of collaboration flexibility they are going to be the educators the trainers the facilitators and the conversation holders of the future so we in the culture sector are the standard barriers for the new generation who are going to come through where the challenge lies is how we keep the door open for people um in my own organisation we're incredibly lucky I work with museums galleries production workshops organizations with no building artists led my members are you know we church in buta island shetland which supports artists of all abilities to make work you know or a or a grand neoclassical building in in Edinburgh um we know from very recent research that our model in terms of being for example with the exhibition programmes of being free at the point of access that works we know that the challenges that people are experiencing around the cost of living crisis that opening our doors works the the most recent research in trade to Scotland that came out at the end of april established that the arts and gallery sector the museum sector is thriving it's bouncing back and it's welcoming visitors but it requires investment all of this requires investment um and we need to work out how to how to do that how to do that sustainably so lots and lots of challenges but I feel we don't have any choice because you know as I say art and culture extremely important to Scotland's future thank you and um can I just say Fran thank you you must be the busiest woman in Edinburgh at the moment um with the right in the the um heart the city during the the international festival but um what are your reflections on what the challenges might be and what innovations you'd like to see coming forward I think one of the challenges I can see is that you Claire gave us the heads up she was going to ask this first question that said you've only got four minutes to talk about the challenges so I think condensing it into four minutes is is one of them that I mean we're all facing an overarching challenge around the funding and the resourcing landscape that we that we're operating in and I think when we talk about arts and culture I'm thinking predominantly about the subsidised arts and culture sector that that I can see a lot of people in the in the audience working and and I think we've all we've all worked in um but I'm really struck by what Moria was saying because I agree that I think culture is the future arts and culture is the future because there is no more innovative creative set of individuals and those that work in the arts that's where ideas come from and if we need to think of new ways forward if we need to think of radical solutions it's going to come from artists it's going to come from creators um I think it's absolutely fundamental that we collectively can affect a sort of reshift a rethink about the position of arts and culture in society but importantly in terms of the economy in terms of our governmental structures in terms of all sorts of things because we know that the role that arts and culture particularly subsidised arts and culture plays is fundamentally important to the creation of new work we're able to take risk in a way because of public public's investment that the commercial sector just doesn't do so there is a kind of um there's a sort of flow chart if you like from from the work that we do in the subsidised world through to the creative the commercial arts world and then all of the things that flow from that so all of the production skills and all of the exploitation of that content and I know we'll probably come on to IEP later but all of the the rest of the economy that's built on the shoulders of what we all do so if you think about Edinburgh at the moment and the number of tourists that are here they're here because of the arts and culture so there's a whole tourism industry that relies upon what we do and on the back of tourism industry there's all the associated hospitality restaurants and taxis and bars and on all of those things and hotels so all of that relies upon what we do and I think sometimes we have conversations with ourselves only about the arts um perhaps we need to be a bit bolder and a bit more kind of up you know feisty about about what we contribute so you also asked what might be some solutions to some some of this and so um this morning we had a a meeting in the in the hub with representatives from um south australia and I was really taken that um culture in south australia is part of a department called and I've written it down here uh industry innovation and science so one of the things I'm wondering about is whether or not we just get rid of the culture bit of external affairs and the constitution because I'm not sure how well it's working if I'm perfectly honest maybe we need a department of innovation where we can be alongside scientific innovation green innovation healthcare innovation because I don't know what creativity is if it's not creating something new and being innovative so that will be my kind of starter for 10 this takes me to I dilemma that I find I'm from an IT background uh and um the the Scottish games industry which is a huge international success not as big as it could be I I I don't think but um again it doesn't know where it sits if it's in the economy sector or the creative sector or the culture sector and yet we're now doing film production based on games engines and all these kind of things so so you're absolutely right these things are much more integrated than than we think so if I could take it back to um the skills that we were talking about and the opportunities for young people so um I'm from a constituency where um you know um we we've had some great um cultural icons um come from and young people but young people feel I think disengaged from the process so um when you were talking about all the production skills when you go to the the conservatoire and you see set design and and it's technology it's engineering it's all the things that that young people might be told would be good things to study but they don't link it into that cultural and um creativity area so um is there something more we could be doing to open up the opportunities to young people and encourage um skills and um articulation into the arts from from different um less traditional routes um well come to gene again first okay um do my sales pitch again as a national theatre scotland board member that um in the autumn I think it's on the I think it's online now if anyone from any school educationalists are are interested or in the room that uh there'll be uh careers investigation day and it's the um that's hosted at rock villa in Glasgow and actually I think I think the first one was post lockdown um and um so it's open to um young people and their their educators split into um I think s1 to s3 and then the the higher secondary school and it is a bit of a demystification um opportunity so people can you see what here terminology like marketing plan or things like that but spend time with the team behind there so it's very much embodying what and um what goes on um back of house um which thinks really important and also my experience at cca is the chair at cca and we've got a beautiful little film studio at cca as um and that's one of you were down the road from the conservatoire as well as down the hill from the the art school but that those spaces opening up those spaces for um students and people to come in and and access um skills but I think um you know I would I I think it's a both and approach from all for the innovation and that that's where the sustainability will come from but culture is also a bit a sense of belonging and telling our stories of who we are to the world so I love the cultures and you would imagine that as the producer of Edinburgh culture something that um it sits with external affairs so those kind of you know room really digging deep into um traditional skills actually our heritage as as well and just um making sure that our young people have access to express themselves and and know what they're rooted in and feel it's as good as the next place yep Moira I'm the lucky parent lucky adoptive parent of two care experienced children and when my children came to me with incredibly complex life experiences but also you know huge innate wisdom and charm and intelligence despite their challenges it was really difficult for them to settle it's I mean I just I remember them coming to me and I remember thinking it was round about Christmas time I remember thinking that I had my best outfit on and my lipstick on it was looking great and I look at the photographs of myself and I look absolutely terrible rabbit in the headlights my young people really struggling to settle in it in a new environment and within a few weeks we established that there was one place in our week where we could cope and where my children found a sense of kind of agency and sense of self at 18 months and two and a half and that was at our local art centre around the corner doing 30 minutes of what was then called mini music and that half hour of simple rhythm that was free that was facilitated with other young people as my children have grown one of my children has really significant challenges around neurodivergence but she can still sing and now she's not singing at the wee art centre around the corner she's singing in Glasgow in the concert hall in front of a thousand people and all of this has come through the local authority and all of this has come through education and through schools and it's been local and it's been accessible it's not been about palaces of culture it's been about her neighbourhood it's been about trusted adults so I really believe that we must provide within our communities and we must provide routes for all of our children if our most these are the most vulnerable children in the whole country with the right support as 18 year olds they are standing in front of 1200 people in a concert hall singing a solo it's astonishing what we can do if we can intervene at the right time there is so much work that we can do and there is so much that needs to be done to support this kind of work in the mainstream curriculum to ensure that expressive arts are protected to ensure that that library church community centre is still open but you know we can do it I have seen it it is magic yeah and wonderful to hear I sometimes wonder if we don't if we celebrate Scotland's successes enough in these areas so my own situation's a major we have Sir Alexander Gibson was born in Motherwell Liz Lockhead very contemporary from last year's festival with Medeib and one of the the highlights of the festival then and I wonder if if our young people if we don't celebrate enough those successes but wonderful to hear that experience because one of the issues that the committee of the parliament is returning to always is this idea of a well-being society and what well-being means and we know we have a huge issue with mental health amongst young people coming out of covid and it's just how do we reach further to those harder to reach areas to ensure that young people have those opportunities and are able to get that support now I wonder if perhaps Fran, you could reflect on what the international festival has done in terms of outreach for young people yeah I mean I would agree I think you we have to start at school we have to start when people are tiny but we have to go even further back actually we have to start with the teachers because if the teachers who spend all day with with our young people aren't aware of some of the opportunities and the potential the creative potential both in the curriculum but also outside of the curriculum for our young people then then we're never going to we're never going to get there so I think you know embedding the creative arts within the curriculum is absolutely absolutely fundamental but I think we've also got to bear in mind that for our young people in school at the moment we don't know what jobs they're going to be doing in 20 years time they don't exist yet so we haven't actually got the the words or the language to describe the the job titles that they're going to have or the industry that they're going to work with so we've got to be even more sort of fleet of foot around the development of skills that we enable our young people to to get so we're thinking about this at the festival an awful lot and something that we've done a lot in the last few years is really develop a relationship with with the school so we've had a residency model where we've worked with a school for three or four years consistently year after year after year so that the students get to know us and we get to know the students and what they're interested in and what fascinates them and where they're going and what's what's tomorrow because you know if you sit here at my age I don't know what I'd be at the 1980s was my heyday not tomorrow so to understand that and also to work with the with the teachers to to familiarise them with the possibilities within the festival or arts and culture will generally all the creative industries so for example this came to fruition last summer at Leith Academy where we did a whole production in the school that completely took over the school and the students had all sorts of roles within that back of house front of house production roles so they really understood and they got their first paid experience of working an event so they understood actually what it's like to work in to work in our industry which is fantastic and then something else that we do um we're slightly younger students is a program called art of listening where we introduce more it's kind of what you were saying we introduce young people to music and teach them how to hear and how to experience and to feel and to hopefully inspire them into a lifelong love of of music and music and the arts so I think what you have to do is catch people really early inspire them show them what can happen but also but teach the teachers so that we've so that we're it's a cascade effect so where are your organisers are very much embedded in the communities in which they work so um but do you still feel that our um financial or rather the barriers for some people actually taking up opportunities when they are in the communities and not sure um to what extent people see the work that Claire does the rest of the year at committee but the culture committee has been hearing evidence recently um around culture in communities and has heard about some amazing projects all over Scotland um I think the most shocking evidence that I heard and we're hearing this all over the place um is that one of the really significant barriers to people participating in these subsidised activities was hunger was hunger it's utterly extraordinary so there is a bit of me I could talk to you forever about how tiny the culture budget is and how it's failing and global comparators I could talk to you about standstill funding and the impact that's having on on artists every day but there's there's something else there which is there is no cultural policy without housing policy there is no cultural policy without social policy there's no cultural policy without integrated transport you know there's no cultural policy without health policy we have to build these things together and we have to build an awareness that whilst I'll say that culture is Scotland's future it can't carry this extraordinary burden um of the difficult lives that people are living it can support people but there is so much work that that we need to do we're at the kind of tail end of a particular historical moment and we need Root and Branch transformation and culture is one of the places where we will imagine that transformation but people can't take place in cultural activities when they are hungry and we need to find ways to enmesh some of the you know we've got a brilliant member platform a wonderful art centre at Easterhouse there as well as delivering cultural experiences they are part of the school meals program in Glasgow and joining these things creating places that are warm where it's not stigmatic to be fed where there is dignity and is really really important and we have to look holistically at all of these policies. Jane, you've got a strong connection with Glasgow and some of the challenges in that city have you any reflections on the barriers that still exist and how we might be able to overcome some of those? In terms of adapting obviously CCA is for those of you who don't know it it's on Suckey Hall Street and City Centre and CCA kind of joked that by the time that COVID came around it was well versed in lockdown because it had already had to lockdown twice due to the two tragic Glasgow School of Art fires around the corner so 2014 and 2018 or 16 18 maybe so that really affected the organisation's ability to trade, the cultural tenants, Scottish Playwrights Studio Scotland, Scottish Ensemble, everyone had to close down and also what was happening on Suckey Hall Street that same time and over COVID is the night time economy was disappearing. Marks and Spencer's has shut down, shut corner so the footprint on Suckey Hall Street and the surrounding areas has really shifted and actually our population now in our quite not our entire population but as a growing population in our doorstep is the are the asylum seeking communities who are feeling very isolated and living in the hotels in Glasgow City Centre, Renfrew Street etc and CCA has really adapted to welcoming and hosting those communities we've taken on the lease of what used to be in my day it was a posh hairdressers on on on Suckey Hall Street but then became a vape shop and then was empty but CCA have taken that space on a common common ground I have opened up that space in March and actually looking at that being an autonomous space that welcomes the community with lived experience that are isolated there's there's community celebrations there I think it's a there's classes in terms of using computers free access to computers just connection and that is a distinct autonomous space that informs what goes on in CCA but also hopefully provides a welcome for those communities to come in to CCA and I think it's a I think it's a first for a Scottish high street if we might say that but potentially a UK one so watch it's quite young in terms of the programme opening so watch the space on that you'd be very welcome to visit sounds wonderful and I wonder if it's obviously touched on funding it's always something that comes up when we have conversations about culture but I wondered if there were other areas that we think we could be getting more investment I'm thinking of you talked about business Fran I wonder about philanthropy and and and the arts and why there's a bigger space in Scotland for that or do we sometimes rely on what our budgets are really squeezed at government level a bit too much for these areas I think it's a it's a really finely balanced sort of coming together of all the different funding sources that all of us all of us have but the foundational one is the public investment so because without that you won't get the philanthropists investing because they they want to know that the commitment is there and if that commitment's there then it all it all falls apart but to what we were saying earlier I think I'm struck by what what Moria was saying about the burden that is placed on the arts to solve some of those bigger societal issues now we all want to be as accessible as possible we all want to be welcoming we all want to make a difference to people's lives but I know that when we sit down and lots of people will notice you look at your funding application you have to fill in and you have to talk about how you are going to meet child poverty targets how you're going to meet the green agenda community cohesion health well-being every all of these things that have got the we all want to do on no more money so we have to do all of these things and so the the core of what we're there for which is to support artists and to develop creativity is getting squeezed so you know we I really support all of these agendas that we want to do so perhaps there's something about thinking about a cross government all of these let's face it larger spending departments if there was just a percentage from some of those that went into the arts and went into arts organisations that do fulfil those agendas and I think it would transform our whole funding landscape so there are discussions going about things like a tourist levy and how that might be a percentage for the arts and I am not in government I'm not committing to anything but those conversations are being had at the moment Moira you mentioned as well the the challenges that the organisations within the community have in terms of of those funding models are there other areas that you think are yet to be exploited where we could bring more money into the sector or is it harder to get recognition from a big organisation or you know an arts funding company or philanthropist do you think or I'm thinking I'm thinking as well about of course lots of controversy we talked about the planet being on fire there's lots of controversy about some of the types of business that are specific as well is this something you've come across at all and I think in many of these circumstances we can look to artists and the kind of institutions that they create and that if you place artists at the centre of these conversations their ability to problem solve their ability to build new institutions I mean amongst my membership I think I've got is it 70 voluntary collectives artist led organisations who are kind of building the future regardless of how slow the machine of government or public funding might be they would hugely benefit from support many of them but many of them just act and are creating new worlds anything from kind of community interest companies that combine in air we have Norture which is both a nort space and a bakery I had guests recently from Birmingham called Maya group who are very aware that in Birmingham for example they have ballet there's a theatre and an opera taking place and they've decided they're going to build their own artist hotel so that instead of paying your money to the travel lodge or the premier in that money will be you know the profits eventually could be reaped by the artistic community so I think there's all kinds of things on the ground but let's be realistic culture is delivering for Scotland in so many ways and in ways that you might not be aware of it's delivering for example in productivity we know that a visit to Glasgow museums delays a visit to primary care so we know that you you know you have less gps visits even just going to an art gallery reduces your gp visit and we know for example the work that culture can do in relation to workforce retention in some of the most challenging places for example mental health services in the NHS those teams who are involved in cultural programming both for themselves and for the clients and patients that they work with and have better retention rates and better health the definitive study has been done by UCL of all the research to date um on health outcomes in relation to culture and from infancy to old age and you know dementia culture is delivering but the mismatch between that and public investment it's not about an ever decreasing sum of money it's about a massive imbalance and misunderstanding of the the public of public expenditure we are an infinitesimally tiny bit of Scottish government spend and a little bit of shifting of pipelines could deliver so much for us and that core investment brings partnership but it also brings and renders visible the day-to-day benefits that we are providing every day in the culture sector jeem in that I totally agree with the fine balance I think and everything of course that Moira said I think we're asking a lot aren't we in terms of governments but we really are asking governments to think beyond their own terms actually to be kind and think about the future the long term um and really that's an ask but we're asking for that bravery in terms of that that that investment from our from our public funders and that's for us to make the case for that um as I said in my opening remarks is I think we're in a real we're still in an emergent space and we're still holding change and I don't mean just as the culture sector it's like we're re-worlding we're all if we were somehow able to hold our nerve and um and not be hungry but to just to be holding that space in a more kind empathetic way across the sectors and have moved forward together I think there's real possibilities and one of the things that came came to mind there about business was the opportunity with the you keep me right this clear is it called the the business purpose uh the the the the Scottish commission there is I don't know the the Scottish commission we're businesses are being asked the central idea is that businesses are being asked to um imagine uh economic prosperity for our places in Scotland but also imagine the think hard more about um you can think more about social well-being as well as environmental sustainability and I think the cultural projects those members that Moira talked about what's happening um in our organisations you know we've got we've got a real opportunity in our sector to meet that emergent business commission to say actually to get you beyond your state your shareholders to other stakeholders we we do work with artists that innovate improvise devise that have all those skills that can actually you know really help workforces as well um I think that's really important and you know looking at um again I'm sorry I can't remember the name of it but there's there's one of these multinational branding agencies that does a trust survey globally every year I think it may be called Ellerman but businesses are more trusted again than governments in terms of how the public are are looking for guidance across fair work governance optimism so actually when businesses are thinking about reimagining and re-emerging about who they are I think we've got a real if we can get in the room we've got a great opportunity from our sector certainly um sounds like an opportunity rather than you know I challenge ahead you know and I guess that's one of the themes we were hoping would come out from today's discussion so I'm very keen to get participation from the audience and I wonder if anyone would like to ask a question of the panel um we have a hand up lady here oh there's a microphone coming thank you my name's Hazel Godfrey several years ago I went to uh talk by a Alan Riech the poet and a academic and Sandy Muffett the painter this was in the National Gallery and I never forgot what Alan Riech said at the very beginning he said the arts are not an optional extra they're an essential part of our being and I feel that if people the population were aware of how important it is then we wouldn't have this idea that well you can cut that bit because it's just people enjoying themselves now I've my family are all involved in you know music and art etc so I'm very aware of the fact that they are struggling to be funded so I think the two things together it's really important that that's important work and this should be more funding always an opportunity for more funding I'll take another question maybe we come come back to the panel on reflection yes I agree very much with that last contribution I mean I think it is important to recognise that art and culture is is central to our being it's central to the kind of country that we we want to be and I think some international comparisons are are actually quite relevant here in terms of the amount of resource of governmental resource that we devote to the arts and culture in Scotland and the same is true of the UK more widely is pitiful compared with many other countries and you know it's kind of indicates that our governments at both Scottish and UK level don't recognise that arts and culture are central to our being and they're not doing enough about it you know I mean compare with compared Germany just with respect opera for example the number of opera houses that Germany consisting admittedly it's a much larger country so we'd expect them to have more but they have such a rich range of opera spread over quite small cities within within Germany I mean we have one opera company whose funding is only adequate for them to be able to put on one new fully staged production next year otherwise they have to rely on revivals of existing admittedly very successful productions I mean it you know arts and culture are simply not being given a high enough priority I'm going to cabinet panel just reflect on those two observations so can't first great observations couldn't couldn't agree couldn't agree more with you I think arts is not an optional extra and we saw you know where the festivals and were cancelled during Covid and nobody could go to any arts organisations what what did we all do we we we went to our books we went to our music we went to our films because we can't live without arts and culture right so it's absolutely fundamental um I was in a meeting around table with a group of politicians earlier this week and one of the challenges I said said to them we're going to have a general election coming up and in within the next two years there are every party is putting together its manifestos and there is always this sort of discontinuity or this kind of tension between the rhetoric where every politician will tell you how important how valuable the arts and culture is to society how much they really care and then there's the reality of what happens so I said to them when your manifesto comes out guarantee me it's not going to be on the last page the commitment to arts and culture because that's where it always is and that's where that's why I kind of I'm sort of taken or I'm interested in the idea that we get rid of the culture department because it's always the smallest the culture budget is always the smallest let's get rid of it let's mainstream it so that it is in health so that it is in international relations so that it is in community so that it is in education because that's what we do so let's make sure we and just to give you another example on your on your international I was talking to another international festival who take place for exactly the same time in terms of days as the Edinburgh international festival they get 12 times the amount of funding that we do and they are appalled when we talk about about the the level of investment or rather the lack of investment not just in the festivals but in arts and culture generally and they were saying what can we do can we give you an aid package can we do something like that which is shameful I mean absolutely shameful so yes but I think we really have to hold our politicians feet to the fire because we are the electorate we're the ones that are going to vote for it so we've really got to make sure that that rhetoric matches up to the reality okay with all due respect Fran I certainly wouldn't be taking away a culture from anyone's portfolio at all I've lived through the experience of a dear institution in Paisley that was set up by philanthropists being a museum and art gallery art gallery was taken away it's just a museum now and actually the the word where's where's the provision for art so I think there's a real I think there's a real danger in that clearly but I wanted to pick up on something both of you said and something I was really disappointed in in terms of lessons learned from from COVID really but it's somewhere that other politicians of the places are sort of looking at it I'm an independent I'm a freelancer I do lots of different things most of our artists are freelance and it's really precarius thank goodness is organizations like Moira's organization very protective the artist but there was something really and can speak about strands and programs that are positioning the artist but there was something I felt in the the air if you like that was trusting the independent and the leadership of the independent more through like freelancers make theatre and other initiatives during COVID and I don't think that power dynamic has followed through as we're all emerging again that that that that's a that's a real pity I don't see that coming through in the guidelines for the multi-year funding for Creative Scotland for example it looks like our governance is to be would diverse led organizations of course but there's nothing about that centres the creative the independent the art the thinking of the artist there and I think that's such a lost opportunity um that that investment in the artists I think is so central it's really foundational to you as having the the organization and two two things that give me hope and around that in 2020 San Francisco established a fund for artists so 130 artists were given unrestricted bold unrestricted income for 18 months to actually be part of the the to the fabric of their place they're not the central economy but they make the distinctness of that really important and the unrestricted bit was really important because I guess like all of all of us some life happens so there was a recognition that they didn't have to be a creative output that was assessed over 18 months equally there was also a recognition within that that they were likely to collaborate and distribute some of that funding amongst their immediate community so that was that's through the mayor of San Francisco and it'd be interesting to see what's happening with that um and the second one clear and it's it's maybe an ask I know you're not in government but I'm really interested again in Spain in particular just now taking on the presidency of the EU in the next six months looking at the status of the artist and actually what does that mean in terms of tax relief working conditions etc for the artists they're convening as I understand at an EU wide meeting of culture ministers in November to discuss the status of the artist it'd be great if if we were able to have some of the findings of that shared here yeah that's um one of the the impacts of Brexit something my constitution role of the the committee has been looking at is is that change and of course much more challenging for artists to and younger and emerging artists to do tours because of all the Brexit implications from that as well but Moira um one of the things that came out of Covid and and um the culture collective as a collective and and that although you're talking about individual freelancers there does seem to be a a movement behind the freelancers now perhaps a stronger voice do you feel like yourself that that's coming through I think there's still quite a long way to go I have to say I have been a funder I've been a public funder um and in the Halcyon days of the early 2000s my job was an absolute joy in at the old scottish arts council I had a couple of years there responsible for the funding of individual artists and what I learned about the funding of individual artists was the fewer the restrictions and the conditions the the better the output was because you're working with people who are experimental and innovative um but I should also say that I'm not a believer in some kind of I always want people to hold two kind of contradictory things in in their heads which is that artists are special people they're really special they're distinctive they deserve special kinds of institutions but I also want you to hold that they are citizens they are taxpayers successful artists are our employers less successful artists are endless subsidisers of public work because they put so much of their hard earned income from hospitality jobs and and call centre jobs into cultural production so I and for example there's a lot of discussion about things like UBI I'm interested in those models about how they would serve all citizens and if they serve all citizens can we also examine how they might serve the artistic population but I don't want to see a kind of cadre of super subsidised artists um you know without limitation almost always because when you have those kind of academy style structures that was something we were looking at in the early 2000s it always goes to you know white men over 65 who are already rich you know those those kind of things that support that support people at that stage but we did see in the pandemic that emergency funding for people who had credible artistic careers moving quickly did save people's livelihoods small amounts of money when they were needed so I'd be really wary of creating some kind of a tax I mean we use these fiscal measures for all kinds of things fiscal measures are you know used to promote all kinds of business activity it's perfectly okay to use fiscal measures as one part of a kind of complex mechanism support for artists but I think that we have to be really aware of where support is targeted and that that should be around emerging practice or disadvantaged practice it might again also be particularly targeted at older people who suffer disadvantage and I think we have to be wary of creating a kind of superclass of kind of a cadavision model which was genuinely on the policy agenda I think in the in the early 2000s so there's a kind of range of responses but I want I want to hold on to that idea of artists having agency citizenship rather than you know being subject to policy it's artists who create our world and I'm wearing my badge they make that world better by my summer campaign artists make a better world so hold on to that sense of agency we are seeing for example in this city amongst all the challenges of the town centre artists taking over disused office buildings creating studios creating new mechanisms so so let's think about them as active citizens to work in partnership with not as people deserving of sort of sympathetic or inappropriate support but as people that we should collaborate with absolutely I was interested in the comment about it being central to who we are our culture and the lady mentioned to Alan Ray up in sandy and they've just released a new book about brownsbank some lovely poetry in it and it goes back to my my point about making art and successful art and successful artists and poetry that's current and relevant part of the curriculum instead of maybe rolling out Robert Burns once a year to do a bit of scots and that's what education system so it would be would be really nice to see some of those things more embedded um did I see um the the chap sitting here did you want to contribute did you have your hand up yeah thank you thanks hi my name is Barry S and I'm from a company called Erica we're an RFO people don't know that means it we're regularly funded by Creative Scotland um I I was listening to people talk and I was thinking about Margaret Thatcher um when I was a teenager I remember seeing Thatcher on news round touring around university in Sheffield just shaking people's hands and she met somebody and said oh what is it that you do oh I study ancient north verse and she's like oh what a luxury and what does that do for us um and I think that points to this kind of level of conditionality that everybody's talking about here I think this conditionality of having to say that the arts is involved in wellbeing or the arts is the arts is going to solve the the uh of course I I work for a political arts company so we deal with all of these these these things but um the conditionality that's placed on arts companies now I think is a symptom of a very kind of neoliberal managed decline of the of the cultural sector and so we're placed we're asked to be innovative or creative or um what are some of the other words that were thrown around or to like explore philanthropy or something um these things are are conditions of the fact that we don't value culture for for itself uh it's only valuable if we can meet some other conditions that are placed on us those are more and more they become more and more impossible to meet in fact it's it's asymptotic we'll never meet them and as much as we try to meet them and demonstrate that we meet them that argument isn't more are just placed on us and it's never enough because we've already having the argument on the wrong question we're already trying to argue with people who think that we have to justify ourselves through what we can do for housing policy or what we can do for wellbeing or something that's we've lost we've lost the argument at that point we're arguing about something that that has has been pointed out on the panel and other parts of government should be dealing with we can interact with those things our organization we're the only organization in scotland ever to be nominated for the turner prize and we work specifically with around housing migrant communities sex work and a whole bunch a range of social issues but we shouldn't be um we shouldn't be we shouldn't be sat and tasked with having to address these bigger policy level things when we should be given the space the culture is is like like we say it's how we tell our stories how we understand ourselves it's how we make meaning you know it shouldn't be conditions that we should have to be meeting it's like the meaning that we create that we should be celebrated for um so yeah listening to some of the things that are coming off the stage reminds me very much of Maggie Thatcher and the neoliberalization of the arts and then I'm sorry to hear that so thank you for that contribution um so I I'm trying to reflect some of the work that's happening in the parliament at the moment in terms of the of what the the committee has looked at but I'm also very aware that those conversations are being had in from Westminster about what kind of courses should be funded how we do that that kind of thing so absolutely appreciate where you're coming from any reflections on that comment yeah I've got a huge sympathy for for what you're saying I think I talked before about the the requirements of the creative Scotland form and you'll be familiar with that and I had a conversation with somebody who runs a big sports event not very long ago and I said oh you know I've just been having a conversation about what how we can demonstrate we contribute to tackling child poverty right so and he looked at me blank and I said do you not have to do that and he's just like no what so there's a complete asymmetry and inconsistency about what the arts is expected to do within those very small budgets and the expectations that we have around other things that government support like sport that don't get or business or but yeah precisely precisely and because we're all lovely people that work in the arts we want to contribute to those things we want to but I think you know we just stretch ourselves so thinly and what is what is then lost is that very core of supporting the artist and the creativity the core of what we do the thing that's utterly unique that nobody else can do so we we've got we have to challenge that somehow and find a way again just thinking of the arts and nature where the things that kept us afloat how on earth have we just not kind of held on to that movie as we've emerged that really you know I just uh so there's something about yeah very small actions of hope and optimism and creating that artists do that um I just think are the like talismans and actually those small things being repeated create patterns and somehow bringing those rising to the top I just think we've let go of the the simple the simple the simple essence things quite quickly but I think that is about conventions as I mean we are working you know trying to work in the arts in a way that's breaking down those conventions very very much as a as a sector in terms of allowing space for new new new ways which actually are based on old knowledge to come to the fore again there was a glimpse but during covid I think of holding space and finding space feels like a luxury right now because we haven't got we haven't got the capacity to do that because we are so busy trying to satisfy 15 other agendas and that that holding space just isn't isn't happening so I feel really like we need systemic change where we completely reposition what we do in relation to civic society and to take you know it's got to be about creating art for art's sake and it's got to be an acknowledgement that there's a contribution to these other agendas but that is not why we exist art is something fundamental within us and with all of us that we can elicit and facilitate and encourage and support but it's not too solved how poverty is because it has a value in its own right if I could just say I think that's a really helpful and really interesting contribution and I'm going to go away and have a really hard think about the potential that I might sound like Margaret Thatcher I think there's a distinction I think there's a really interesting distinction between us to being serving somebody else's agenda and the agenda that artists choose for themselves and an interest in kind of demonstrating where people reach and the effect of the work they do versus the set of demands every room that I go into with the politician I guess you turn your face to the sun to try and articulate in language that they understand some of the work that you do and maybe you become too conditioned about that and I think this conversation is really helpful in reflecting on some of that and I think that there's spent a lot of time really recently trying to understand what's kind of motivating practice and a lot of it is about modelling the future and creating this kind of infrastructure of the imagination of better worlds or creating pockets places that are better worlds than the worlds that we kind of currently live in and I think that's important to kind of raise that as a kind of conversation but I'm listening really carefully I'm certainly there's not one bit of me that says that we should be serving other political masters but I want other political masters to understand what it is the culture sector actually does all of this work that we do that is can be transformative I'm really really uncomfortable about words like innovation because I do think that's that's Mr Thatcher in science mode isn't it and we need to find what those words are you know that's a word in my office innovation is kind of banned because it's it's not effective insightful is my other banned word please don't ever use the word insightful for some reason that just really sets my teeth on edge but I you know I want to hold that really troubling thought about where is it I mean am I in rooms like this too often am I not understanding what it is that artists kind of need and want to do but I've spent a lot of time recently one to one with with artists in a kind of consultative setting where many of them are saying to me that actually they want off things like exhibition treadmills they're struggling but they do want to work with communities they do want to understand much more about the mechanics of the world that they're part of but yeah I'm going to get my hair done when I go home and and just try out that kind of thatch right modelling see if it see if it works it's slightly uncomfortably with me but I really really helpful at a contribution a bit kind of touching base with core values so thank you so the culture committee will be publishing our culture in the community inquiry shortly after we return in the early autumn but I will say that the the merging themes that really stood out to me was from hearing from artists that all of a sudden because COVID changed everything for everybody they had to they they could stop jumping through the hoops tick in the boxes all of a sudden they became trusted organisations by the funders to go out and deliver what they thought they should be doing in the communities and the other thing that I saw from that in my own community in particular was it was the the artists the the cultural organisations that were able to do that really quickly really pivot and that's almost down to the creativity we've all been talking about there so um so that's certainly something that I've learned from COVID and when we talk about culture being core to certainly COVID for all of us what we missed and what it impacted on was that that connection with community and connection with culture and the ability to share the experience with those around us of attending events and and seeing that in action so certainly those themes have come out in the work that we're doing but that's me rambling on I'm looking for more contributions from the audience anyone there's a lady here and I'll come to you next sir thanks sorry it's a bit um bit Margaret Thatcher Margaret Thatcher milk snatcher one of the um most horrifying comments I think I've heard in a long while is the barrier to engagement is hunger in this country in this this time I mean and surely we have to address that because what kind of country do we want to live in when actually the biggest barrier to folk access in culture is hunger I mean it's a basic human right to have enough food especially if you live in a country like this meant to balling more reflection than a question but I don't know what do we do with that information more I mean you mentioned it where does that go where does that sit with this so we we certainly am at a weight of increase in food bank use and we all have our caseloads as MSPs and know what the challenges are and I I came to politics through the closure of Ravens Creek which saw the biggest meal and employment in Europe at one point in my constituency and I thought that was the worst things could be but I'm more scared now than ever for for my constituents so I certainly want to reflect on so the gentleman the glasses you had to your hands up so hello my name is Stephen Lacey and I was until recently the chair of DG Unlimited which is a small voluntary organisation in Dumfries and Galloway and I have a question which you may be able to answer Claire which is that in about 2017 2018 I can't quite remember the date we along with a lot of other organisations contributed to a cultural strategy for Scotland which was initiated by the government now certainly part of the discussion at that time was that that strategy would be fed through every single other department so that they every initiative whether it was in housing or education etc would be forced to take on board the cultural strategy and then I'm afraid I lost track of what happened to it did it fall into a black hole or what? I think the main thing was COVID happened we've also had reiterations of governments and signs a change of personnel at the top of the portfolio but it's certainly something that is still on the agenda and Moira you you were involved in that process as well do you want to to just say a little bit about your experience of it and if it's awful it's fine no I mean the committee is a really interesting place to be and it's been incredible for for a tiny organisation like us in a sector that is so I hate that word sector community people artists arts organisations the opportunity to begin to understand the processes that that were part of whether we like it or not is really important but I hold that work so that other people don't have to if you don't mean I'm not expecting everybody to to be interested in it the cultural strategy pre was a bunch of random aspirations that have no budget attached had no significant mapping or research there's no sense of you know you're a local authority you're trying to work out what school provision you need to meet there's no map of culture in Scotland like that nobody knows where the the desire is where the communities of artists where where where there is need where there is provision it's it's a blank we the map exists simply because of the activity on the the ground and there is a complete lack of strategic context and the strategy didn't deliver a grown-up governmental picture of what culture should be it did deliver a set of aspirations that do seem to be what we call cross portfolio they do seem to be aspirations around a national geographic picture where that you have the right to participate in culture and gear lock as you do in Galloway um but I don't know last year during the crisis there was a there was a suggestion that there would be a refresh of the culture strategy I know that clears committee have tasked um SG or or the cabsec with updating us on this there is no picture there is no action there is no plan but there seems to be a kind of shape of obligation that maybe that's what Barry's talking about an expectation that for example funding mechanisms will deliver and expect the cultural sector to deliver across policy areas or geographic desires um but where the governmental responsibility for that is where the action is where the investment is there's just a massive mismatch it's not what I would call a strategy I just wanted to say that I have been on a workshop recently with with colleagues from um the cultural division just going back revisiting what the strategy was so that that feels to me it was in it was in May it was doing one of those really long bank those many bank holidays and it was a bit tired it was on the call I have to say that kind of wanted to go on the holiday so that was quite recent that was May but that feels like those conversations are live I mean I've attended every single one of those but I think I just want to be frank there we're not seeing any movement nothing is happening that you know we we met with the cab set the other week the cycling seems to be taking up a huge amount of worth of the directorate the kind of mega event culture that we're subject to in Scotland um so I'm not I'm not seeing action I'm not seeing I'm just not seeing that kind of governmental context at the moment interesting you the cycling's been termed as a major event major event set underneath the culture the cabinet secretary for culture and not under sport as well so one of these dichotomies in in government sometimes Fran have you any thoughts on on the the policy and the strategy if I knew what it was I could comment on it um I think I think there's just an absence of strategy there is and I've lost count of the conversations I've had with cab sec and ministers and to say what is the strategy and there there is none is the honest truth so and in the absence of that then what we do is fill the gap by trying to respond to every single different government initiative and priority because there isn't one culture there is no strategy for culture and that's a sad place to be so I certainly um interesting I know certainly be taking that back to colleagues and through the committee with me I thought this was more relaxed for them there's um the lady at the back of the room would you like to to ask her questions hello um it was more like um a comment on the um people are the main barrier to culture is hunger and to me it's not um it's not helpful um and the reason why is because I feel that when we fight for different causes when we go on a march um against climate change or when we go on international women's right women's day um we're not meant to feel guilty about it we think that it's uh it's a good thing it's socially acceptable however when we want to fight for the arts we are we're kind of taken for I don't know a bunch of privileged people but actually access to like participation to arts and culture is a human right it's actually listed uh in the and I didn't know that until last year um in the international declaration of the human right uh and arts and culture is a public service and that when we fight for arts and culture and more public funding for arts and culture we're not fighting at the expense of other public services we just believe that all of these public services are important and my name is Odin I've been involved in the Save the Theme House campaign um so over the last nine months ten months we've been organizing public meetings with consultations where to find a consensus to try and reopen the theme house we we organized a protest in front of a theme house and then a national arts protest that is bigger and I was really um it was kind of heartwarming to see so many people who were ready to stand up for culture and write to their local councillors and MSPs and after 10 answers of oh but what about the NHS or what about trying to divide us amongst ourselves to be to to finally reach like the kind of the comfort that what we're doing is right and as a citizen of Scotland well I'm not actually a citizen as a resident of Scotland actually have a citizenship um I would want to see our decision makers fight more so maybe they are on a day-to-day basis because everyone is burnt out overworked etc but I would want to see them fight more for more investment in arts and culture and not just accepting things as they are and operate within or capitalist system which is you know on a day-to-day is what's going to happen but ultimately if we don't fight things are never going to change and our cultural sector will continue to dissolve as it is dissolving right now in front of our eyes and so that's all I want to say Sure Moria if you want to there was just something I wanted to say which I didn't I don't want to say that the primary barrier to cultural participation is hunger that's not what I was saying so but I noted that one of the barriers to that was expressed was hunger and what I'm trying to say is not that it's culture versus hunger it's that hungry people deserve culture that's what I'm saying is that hungry people are as entitled to culture as sated people and fat people like me that you know that that's the that's what I'm saying so really I'm not suggesting that those are are oppositional things and when I talk about all the different ways that culture may operate in in complex ways it's not saying that that because I'm placing a different value on those so so please I don't want to be misunderstood about that and I understand the absolute challenge that people have faced to lose something that they loved and I think we can see that that will happen again and again for lots of different reasons complex reasons not just reasons of money sometimes reasons of structure and allocation of resources but I know how hard you're fighting for something that you really wanted and need any thoughts do you use the word dissolved in terms of the culture sector dissolving and I kind of feel maybe it's okay that some things dissolve to as long as there's space made for other things to come to come through and it's just that in creation of space for things that are not visible immediately that don't look like outputs immediately actually that place for experimentation for the things that we don't know we need now that actually in five years ten years time create a sense of all wonder purpose I think it's really I think in terms of this re-emerging things will dissolve and I think that's actually healthy and okay but just it's the creation of the the democratisation of the of whose culture and those spaces for that to come through can it come yeah absolutely because I think you raised a really interesting sort of comment around the idea of competition that actually for somebody to succeed somebody else has to lose so that for culture or the arts to get funding somebody else has to lose or even within our own ecology that if the national museums gets more money than somebody else has to lose and that's really dangerous because actually the answer is everything needs funding and we need to raise everybody up so I think sometimes the debate that we have around this is really is really unambitious because we sort of accept that there's a fixed and diminishing pot whereas actually what we need to be doing is working at how to grow it and celebrate when organisations or our individual artists are successful and do attract resources that's a really good thing it's it's kind of like saying you know all all money for health should go to GP services because that's where people live and we shouldn't fund those big hospitals that you need both you need everything you need a diversity of provision within within any sector and I think we're sometimes really bad at that within the arts of criticising each other and not and just on the basis that it's a zero sum game on a just genuinely don't believe it is interesting I'm afraid I think we've probably run out of time completely and so it's been really interesting afternoon it's we've gone to to many areas and explored different areas around the the cultural landscape in Scotland but it's been a real joy and thank you for your questions and participation but I'm going to leave the last words final reflections from the ladies in the panel friend give you it to go okay last reflection is I think we've we've reached a point where we can't go on like this so something fundamental has got to change and we need to be bold and we need to be brave and we need to hold people to the fire people speak to the fire that's what's got to change I'll be getting my fire extinguisher there's certain that there's something about pace and just being really conscious of pace what's urgent where do we need to we can't do everything we can't have 15 competing things but actually what takes a long time to germinate and what are the what can be our quick quick wins within organisms it's something about pace and what needs to be looked at now and really not necessarily looking at critical mass but looking at critical connections now whether that they're just yeah going to protect things longer longer term but the fast experimentation also is really helpful why? I've got the final final words. I've got so much to say to go home and just really digest but I am yeah we're just we're living through this absolutely massive mismatch between rhetoric and reality and you know we've had a lovely couple of weeks thanks to the generosity of colleagues of being allowed into political rooms that I don't normally get into and being loved by politicians you're then going to walk away and not deliver for us but whatever the solution is it has to put artists at the centre there's like there's no point if we don't there's nothing without artists voices artists perspectives and I think that's the core lesson for our future we'll fail if we don't do that. Can I just say thank you very much to all the panellists to quite diverse and interesting perspectives from your roles and previous roles so to Gina and Fran and Moira thank you very much can we please show your appreciation thanks also to the parliament's staff who've supported this and of course to the internet internet festival who have been partners in bringing this afternoon's panel together so thank you once again can I remind people please fill in the feedback forms that you would have been emailed from Eventbrite or received on picking up your tickets downstairs we want the festival politics is a long-standing event now in the parliament we want to make it as successful as possible so please do give your feedback to us and just remind everybody that the festival goes on tomorrow and there's something we talked I talked with the panel earlier about is ethics and AI and how that might affect the cultural sector in terms of deep fakes and you know IP and design and all these kind of things and actually script writing all these things that are coming our way so that's maybe one for next year that we can pick up but again enjoy your day in the parliament and thank you very much for attending today