 Hey, it's real to have you here folks. So we are very excited for this debate as this is the Eastern Resurrection debate as we are a day away from Easter It's going to be a lot of fun If this is your first time here consider hitting that subscribe button because we have many more debates to come But for example, you'll see at the bottom right of your screen this Monday a tag team Skyler fiction and Dr. Josh Whether or not Christianity is rationed with Craig and Caleb so that'll be a lot of fun Hopefully we will see you there for that and want to let you know though I have linked these speakers in the description box that way if you're listening and you're like mm-hmm I like that you can hear plenty more where that came from so we are very excited for this one folks It's gonna be a pretty like easy-going loose format It's gonna be ten flexible minutes for the opening statements on each side and then we'll go right into open conversation also I want to give a huge thanks and Positive shout-out just to say thanks so much for all of your guys's support is I know that today as well as Last several days. It's been like a pack No kind of ebbing and flowing and we want to say thanks so much your patients and Hey, you know I hang with us and being encouraged stuff like that. You remember we used to have was it like a year ago? We used to have these We used to have these We used to have these audio issues like 24-7 where my audio is right now I appreciate you guys giving me that feedback on your work on that, but we made it up through it We're gonna get through this and we thank you so much for being here with that We're gonna have SJ start out first and so SJ very happy to have both you and Tom here The floor is all yours for that roughly 10 minute opening statement Okay, well, thank you James. Thank you so much for having me on I'm really excited about this because today is holy Saturday. It's a very holy day for Christians tomorrow Is obviously Easter Sunday, and that's the time when Jesus resurrected And so this is the most important time arguably of the entire year for Christians So I'm gonna talk a little bit about the situation here So I am making the case that Jesus did resurrect and I'll say the crucifixion topped all means of punishment is the most excruciating and humiliating For this reason when Jesus threatened the livelihood of the Pharisees by working miracles serving as a beacon of light and hope for the Poor and downtrodden and finally affirming to them his divine nature They demanded the Romans crucify him and you can read about that in mark 14 You can read about that passage they wanted to retain their elevated positions in the temple and Jesus posed a serious threat to them Jesus knew what they had in store for him 700 years before his crucifixion the prophet Isaiah 53 spoke of the suffering servant who would be quote pierced for our Transgressions around a thousand years before King David in Psalm 22 referred to the one forsaken by God Who is surrounded by a pack of villains who pierced his hands and feet? The prophet Zechariah in 1210 also drew attention to our coming Lord He said and I will pour out on the house of David and its inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and Supplication they will look on me the one they have pierced and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and grief Bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son Daniel 9 even predicted the timing of Jesus's crucifixion his 77s less 7 or 483 year countdown began after the decree of Artic Xerxes in 444 BC and ended during the passion week in 33 AD When Jesus was crucified these were all written hundreds of years prior to the time when the Persians Invented the crucifixion as a means of execution which estimators have indicated is between 400 and 300 BC Malachi also predicted the timing of Jesus's arrival as he noted Jesus would appear in the second temple in 3 1 which the Romans destroyed in the year 70 so that we have a time period from this Numerous men had claimed to be the Messiah around Jesus's time yet all but Jesus's ministry died out Why was claiming to be the Messiah so prevalent? It's because the prophesied time was at hand The Jews were looking for a Messiah then this is why king Herod upon finding out the Messiah had been born in Bethlehem As prophesied in Micah 5 2 ordered the murder of all of the boys under two He didn't want to lose any of his power to a higher power in sanhedrin 97 and 90 97 a and 97 b their expectations were clarified So here's what the Jews believed about the timing and you guys pay very close attention to this the school of Eliyahu taught 6,000 years is the duration of the world 2,000 of the 6,000 years are characterized by chaos or from Adam to Abraham 2,000 years are characterized by Torah from the era of the patriarchs until the end of the Mishnahid period from Abraham to the Anno-Dimini era And 2,000 years are the period of the coming of the Messiah So I just added in the era times in there that is the course that history was to take But due to our sins that time frame has increased the Messiah did not come after 4,000 years passed And furthermore the years that elapsed since them which were to have been the messianic era have elapsed Early Jews knew the Isaiah 53 passage referred to the Messiah as recorded In mid-rash Raba Ruth 2 14 and here's a quote He is speaking of the king Messiah come hither draw near to the throne and dip thy morsel in the vinegar This refers to the chastisements it is said, but he was wounded for our transgressions Bruce for our iniquities They also knew the prophecies referred to two types of jewish Messiah as evidenced in the sanhedrin 98 a If the Messiah and here's a quote of israel will be righteous The Messiah will come in the clouds of heaven if they will not be righteous He will come as a poor man riding upon an ass And of course, Zachariah 9 9 says see your king comes to you righteous and victorious Lowly and riding on a donkey on a colt the file of a donkey Who writes donkeys anymore? Jesus reconciled these seemingly divergent messiahs He is both the suffering servant and the glorious king who will come again in glory to judge a living in the dead And his kingdom will have no end his crucifixion was a sacrifice of the strongest for the benefit of the weakest Which is an inversion of the survival of the fittest concept in darwinian evolution On calvary. He reconciled god's perfect love mercy and justice Jesus appeared as a humble servant who came to Change the world his revolutionary teaching stated that the meek would inherit the earth and sinners would be saved Meekness is not weakness but restrained power He fulfilled mosaic law and gave christians a new covenant to love god above all and to love one's neighbor as oneself He replaced an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth by instructing people to love and forgive their enemies He instilled a sense of hope when there was little he forgave even his worst enemies the Pharisees and romans who crucified and mocked him Here's what he said father forgive them for they know not what they do Who heard jesus on the cross in its final moments his mother his female disciples and his beloved disciple john witness jesus's crucifixion His other disciples such as peter had gone into hiding They did not want to suffer the same fate as jesus and their hopes that jesus would reign in their presence had been squashed Today back in history. They would have been very depressed Jesus's brother james had tried to stop his ministry peter denied even knowing jesus three times to save his own skin But then something miraculous occurred in his letter letter to the city of corinth and first corinthians 15 Paul reported an early memorized creed which stated that after jesus's crucifixion and death He appeared to peter and his other disciples and to 500 and then to his half brother james before appearing to paul Also known as sol the one abnormally born Jesus appeared to individuals and groups over a period of 40 days before he rose into the heavens The holy spirit then descended upon jesus's disciples and they were empowered Emboldened and blessed they no longer feared death because they had seen their messiah overcome it They spent decades preaching for jesus despite being jailed beaten and stoned and eventually martyred by burning boiling Crucifixions and beheadings people don't willingly die for something they know not to be true And jesus's early disciples were uniquely positioned to know whether what they were claiming was true They said they saw the risen christ and their bravery in the face of gory persecutions and death proved it The resurrection forms the foundation of christianity as st paul has indicated without the resurrection We have nothing by overcoming death jesus gave us reasons to know his words to be true He said destroy this temple and i will raise it again in three days and he did he gave good on his word How is it possible that a carpenter a tax collector some fisherman and a tent maker from an obscure Near east ancient near eastern village could start a movement that completely appended the world Nothing is possible with god during jesus's time many made claims to be the savior prophecy to come in the first century In the jewer scriptures such as daniel and the writings yet when they died their followings died out christianity grew despite heavy and sporadic persecutions under emperors such as nero desian and diocletian and other leaders such as pliny the younger By 313 when constantine finally granted christian's legal protections christianity had between five and six million adherents Some have discounted the resurrection by claiming that miracles are not evidenced yet We have evidence of miracles today in the early 1980s barbra kimiski snider was curled up in her bed after 15 years of enduring multiple She was blind wheelchair bound and barely able to breathe Her doctors had decided if her lungs collapsed, which they expected they wouldn't revive her She was too far gone and had no quality of life Then she heard the words my child get up and walk Her atrophy disappeared her eyesight was restored and she regained her ability to breathe properly She got out of bed and found herself walking Even her curled up feet had been healed Later that day she went into her church and walked down the aisle in front of a shocked and cheering audience She had always been in a wheelchair Decades have passed since that time and barbra is still without ms today jesus heals And jesus loves in conclusion i have demonstrated That the jews and ancient times were expecting two types of messiah a mighty king and a lowly and humble savior Who would come riding on a donkey? They further were expecting that the the savior would arrive in the time frame when jesus arrived Jesus fulfilled biblical passages. In fact, he fulfilled 330 old testament passages that said he would be pierced for our transgressions Which were written hundreds of years prior to the crucifixion We have substantial extra biblical support for his ministry crucifixion and his disciples claims that he rose from the dead And i'm prepared to present those if needed Jesus's disciples were uniquely positioned to know whether what they believed was true And many went to their deaths rather than recanting the truth. Thank you so much Thanks so much sj. We will now switch it over to tom jump for his opening statement And very excited for this one Just want to let you know in addition to this debate as we had mentioned Skyler fiction who is in the live chat at the moment He and dr. Josh will be coming on next monday for that tag team debate Tonight by the way, just want to quick mention because i hate i don't want to violate your expectations so i want to give you heads up the Team skeptic flat earth aussie debate is probably going to be postponed to next weekend So we probably won't have one tonight. Sorry about that folks But we are going to try to sort some stuff out with that debate and hopefully have it next weekend if we can So thanks so much and tom the floor is all yours Yes, the topic of the debate is did jesus rise from the dead and the way we address this question is the same way We address every similar question like did the flying man that dug mentions actually fly Did harry potter exist? Did mohammad split the moon in half? Did santi saibaba create dust from his hand? All of those claims we address in the exact same way. It's with evidence Well, what is evidence evidence is what we use to differentiate between what's imaginary and what's real So if i told you i saw a dog that would be reasonable to believe But if i told you i saw a unicorn that would not be reasonable to believe The difference between these two claims is that dogs have an implicit empirical basis I mean, there's lots of things about dogs that we know that i just haven't mentioned in that statement like their phylogymy taxonomy DNA genetic makeup chemical composition their fossils bones how to train them what they're allergic to There's lots of things about dogs that we know Scientifically that i just didn't mention the statement. I saw a dog, but none of that exists for unicorns So in the statement, I saw a unicorn the only evidence there is that the claim that I saw it Which isn't enough in the take in the example of a dog That it's the my testimony in addition to the empirical evidence And so it's reasonable to believe because it has the combination of those two things Whereas in the case of I saw a unicorn it just has my testimony. So it's not reasonable to believe So the difference between these two claims is that one has an empirical basis along with the testimony and one is just the testimony Testimony on its own is not sufficient to justify beliefs about things existing in the world And so anything that lacks an empirical basis isn't reasonable to believe based off testimony That means miracles magic mythical creatures the paranormal supernatural UFOs And this applies to all religions and all such claims in everywhere in the world doesn't make a difference What they are including the resurrection of jesus So because the only evidence we have for the resurrection is the testimony of people thousands of years ago None of that's evidence that had actually happened That's like saying I saw a unicorn would be unreasonable to believe that based off of the testimony So in order to justify the belief that jesus rose from the dead You would need empirical evidence of miracles actually occurring at some point and then you could infer that That was a miracle like these other ones that we've been demonstrated, but no miracles have ever been demonstrated to have occurred They're all fail every scientific test we've ever done So we have no way to differentiate miracles being real things rather than imaginary things They all seem to just be imaginary things And so it's reasonable to infer the assertion that jesus rose from the dead is also an imaginary thing The fact that the apostles died for their beliefs Doesn't make a difference like if we have if there was a flat earth or who died for his belief that the world was flat Would that add any credibility to it being true? No, what about 10 flat earthers a 10 flat earthers died Would that be evidence for flat earth? No, what about a hundred thousand ten thousand ten million makes no difference The amount of people who die for their beliefs does not add any credibility that their beliefs are true The fact that people believe them or genuinely believe their beliefs isn't Evidence that it's true The fact that they were willing to be persecuted for their beliefs isn't evidence that they're true I mean, you don't hear in a scientific debate someone saying ah bruto giordiano and in galileo They were persecuted for their beliefs that the world was round. That's evidence that the world or that Earth goes around the sun and that's evidence that the earth goes around the sun like no That's not evidence of anything. There's just their persecution isn't evidence to the truth of their beliefs It's just evidence they believe them and so that's not actually evidence the accounts Are just not evidence of the resurrection You need that empirical basis to demonstrate miracles aren't just imaginary before you could conclude that jesus rose from the dead. Thanks Thanks so much tom We will now switch into open discussion mode by the way I want to let you know we'll have a q&a at the end So if you have a question Fired into the old live chat and if you tag me with an at modern day debate in the live chat with your question Makes it easier for me to not miss those questions And super chat is also an option in that case You are not only able to ask a question to one of the speakers But you can also make a comment toward one of the speakers to which they of course would get to respond to We ask that you be your regular friendly selves for that and Super chats will also push your question or comment to the top of the list for the q&a So with that, thanks so much the floor is all yours tom and dr. Esche Okay, well, I want to I want to say thanks to tom I'm glad I watched two of his conversations actually before this this morning I I listened to the one with you james and I listened to one with jonathan cheffield And I I heard some similar arguments with respect to the unicorn and and that sort of thing So I had my mind a little time to think about those arguments So one thing I just want to mention is we do have We have a lot of evidence now one of the ways that you would go about determining whether or not something is true Is including evidence but also including the testimonies of hostile witnesses So if I could I know if it's possible for me to share a slide Actually, I'm not sure if I can do that here How would I share a slide in here? Is there a? There is a screen share at the bottom of your window screen. Oh, I see it. Okay, perfect. Okay. Let me just share a screen By the way, this is a chance for me. I know that It's controversial man the one known as praise. I am Has actually saved the day our internet crash here at my home We have no we have enough to Use a video chat but not enough to stream through obs so praise is saving the day You might not like them but you have to give credit where it's due And so I do want to say thanks so much to praise who I'll link in the description for his help And converse contender saved us on the last stream that just ended with ask yourself And sterling on veganism. So thanks so much to those guys if you haven't met praise He's a twin brother of skylar fiction. So, uh, yeah terrific guys. All right. Thanks so much sj The floor is all yours again I exited I can't share it. I guess oh shoot. Okay, so I'm not gonna I guess I I can't share the screen. So I'm just gonna tell you what uh my screen says So I we have extra biblical hostile support from quite a few people That for example that jesus was crucified this is listed under josephus tacitus lucian and chelsus and the talmud And I'm mentioning the hostile support because one of the arguments that people make a lot of times is he's saying the evidence from the apostles isn't valid He's probably uh going to discount anything that's in the bible or written by the Church father So I'm just showing you the basic facts and if you put these together In this kind of similar to gary Habermas's minimal facts argument But we've got this basic story that even putting that together without the gospels without the bible without the testimonies of all of the The apostles we still have that he was crucified. He died on the Passover according to the talmud Earthquakes accompanied his death according to flegan and phallus and also I found that in some academic literature That they have evidence of seismites He was buried in a tomb as per jewish customs and law to keep the ground pure that was uh in deuteronomy 21 22 to 23 jews even buried malifactors according to josephus and tacitus Disciples said he appeared to them alive three days after the crucifixion According to the josephus the christians were martyred according to sotonius Antacitus christians who refused to recant were martyred according to pliny the younger and trejan And his followers made an oath not to commit wicked deeds and so included in those wicked deeds would be lying I would imagine and so I think they had everything that they wanted to do everything to be telling the truth And I think that it's pretty clear that he resurrected So that's what I would say I'd say that the evidence that tom would probably discount wouldn't be the evidence from the hostile witnesses But I could be wrong Well, I wouldn't discount any of that. So yeah, I agree jesus existed. I agree. He was crucified. I'm agree He was buried and I agree Maybe that there were earthquakes after and I have no problem with any of that The only part that isn't reasonable to believe is that he rose from the dead. That's the only part that's not reasonable So I agree jesus existed So none of the evidence you presented was evidence he rose from the dead So what motivation would you say? Would the apostles have to make up a lie? Especially because they had made an oath to tell the truth. They believed it. And so they believed it. That's totally fine, too Okay, so I think we won't I think we're done james So but that's not evidence that actually happened That's the point is that it's not reasonable to believe that jesus actually rose from the dead just because Some people believed it like there are people who believe the world is flat That doesn't make the reasonable reasonable to believe the world is flat There are people who believe that Muhammad split the moon in half and the will to die for their belief that doesn't mean it's true The fact that people believed it isn't evidence. It's true So it's not it's not just that they believed it though I think you need to pay attention to exactly what they're saying they believed they said that they saw jesus over a period of 40 days In multiple forms and at multiple places and multiple groups of people saw him So it's not just one person like Muhammad making a claim or something like that It's it's not even just a belief it's something that they're saying is part of their very existence and for 40 years Actually even more in some cases But they just preached regardless of the fact that they were persecuted crucified So I think we have a pretty strong case and I I think charles colson said something that makes a lot of sense right here When he was talking about this he basically said that he was looking at the he was comparing the resurrection with the The watergate and he says I know the resurrection is a fact and watergate proved it to me How because 12 men testified that they had seen jesus raised from the dead Then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years never once denying it Everyone was beaten tortured stoned and put in prison They would not have endured it if it weren't true watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful Men in the world and they couldn't keep alive for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep alive for 40 years Okay, but none of that is actually evidence so the fact that they believed it and kept believing it isn't evidence It's true. I mean the flat earthers believe the world is flat The fact that they keep believing it and die for their beliefs Doesn't add any evidence to the world being flat Like if there are a million if there is a flat earth or who devotes his life To the world being flat no matter how much he's persecuted or tortured or killed and people kill him That adds exactly zero evidence to the fact that the world's flat And if we there are 10 there are 10 flat earthers who go through just a lifetime of torture and just never Recant and then they get killed for their belief that still no evidence that the world is actually flat There's a hundred a thousand a million flat earthers who all go through all of this torture and never recant That's still zero evidence that the world is flat So the fact that they believed it Isn't evidence and the fact that they saw jesus after his death also Isn't evidence because that happens all the time. We know that bereavement delusions happen to like 15 of the population That's 15 of seven billion. Yes, there are billions of people who see their loved ones after they die Is just a part of how the brain works. There's there's nothing nothing about anything you said that's actually evidence for a resurrection I would make an argument that when first place bereavement delusions tend to happen for older people the vast majority of people having these delusions It's been shown are are seniors and so the apostles were not older people in general They were probably a younger group of people I think john and james his brother might have been the youngest of the apostles and peter was a little bit older But but it would be something that would be pretty unlikely and i'm saying This is not comparable to the flat earthers flat earthers are not as far as i know They're not being persecuted for their beliefs hunted down over the next You know a bunch of decades because they believe in the flat earth So I think it's a false equivalence. I wasn't making a comparison. They're saying they were I'm saying if they were if we hunted down flat earthers And we just persecuted them and tortured them and they all just never recanted that would still not be evidence for their belief So even if that's true that we just torture all of them and they would never recant that Isn't evidence like the fact that they choose to believe even in the face of being tortured and killed Isn't evidence. It's true that those literally aren't that's like saying i'm holding a cup therefore the spaghetti monster exists There's literally no connection between those two things Um secondly bereavement bereavement delusions happen for lots of people of lots of ages There's it's most of them are old people that's totally fine, but they happen for lots of people of lots of ages So it's again, it's like 15 of everyone on the planet experiences these things. It's not a rare occurrence at all So again, none of that was actually evidence for the resurrection That's evidence for people claimed they saw a dead person and people died for their beliefs I'm happy to grant both of those things, but neither of those actually indicate resurrection occurred I'd say I see I disagree with you wholeheartedly But but I also want to say uh with the bereavement delusion How many people after they say that they saw their loved one spend the next 40 years in and out of jails being stoned crucified beaten Beheaded yet. We don't see that with the bereavement delusion We also don't see people having a bereavement delusion saying that their uh, their loved one Visibly appeared to them physically and ate with them. That's not something that we see with That is actually something we see with bereavement delusion We have both audit auditory and visual hallucinations of those things happening But again, you mentioned the torturing and the again, like It doesn't matter how much they're tortured. It makes zero difference At all how much they're tortured that doesn't add anything at all to the argument It's like if I if we if we didn't torture them if we if we gave them lots of money And said we'll give you money for believing in jesus or whatever That still wouldn't be evidence or counter evidence for anything they believe Even if they recanted and said after like getting a pin prick and said we stopped believing in jesus evidence That wouldn't be evidence against jesus like what they believe or choose to believe After the fact and whether that they're tortured or rewarded is completely irrelevant makes it's zero difference It's like saying I have chief puffs like it's just an irrelevant fact It makes no difference to the evidence whether like we can just take it into the context of galileo Galileo was persecuted does that add evidence to his hypothesis? No If galileo was rewarded would that add or take away evidence to his hypothesis? No The evidence of the claim is irrelevant to what happens to the person who makes it Literally has no bearing at all what they what there's not evidence whether or not they were tortured. It's irrelevant completely irrelevant Okay, that's what you feel so what evidence would convince you that jesus resurrected testable predictions testable predictions so so So if anything happened in history, we have to be able to test it Um, if anything happened in history that doesn't have an empirical basis, we have to then test it. Yes So miracles magic mythical creatures the paranormal supernatural ufo's any of those things in history Would have to be demonstrated to actually exist in the world and not be imaginary Before it was reasonable to infer they happened in the past Okay, so so right now What did you make of the barbara camiskey steiner story that I told you because that story would be testable You can actually go to her doctor's writings. You can talk to her. She's still alive right now The healing like people get healed all the time for different things It's usually medical But you'd have to make a testable prediction not just say I can explain this event We don't understand is it being a miracle? That isn't evidence of a miracle you'd have to actually say if miracles are true I predict that if we do some set of events we'll get this result You can't just say I can explain all these things that we know happened in the past with a miracle That's that's just post-hoc regional rationalization So a testable prediction is to say if my hypothesis is true Here is something I'm going to predict is going to happen that we don't know yet And then confirm that thing just looking back at the past and saying I can explain all of these things and call it A miracle isn't evidence like I can I can call it magic or I can call it unknown natural explanations Like just labeling the unknown explanation or making up an explanation isn't evidence For the evidence you need to go to the future and say if my explanation is true. Therefore, I can test this and get a result So if we could show that miracles occur today, would that be evidence to you that there could have been miracles that occurred in the past? Yes Okay, so there's a here's a here's a couple of quotes So there's a Pew study called spirit and power it's a 10 country survey of Pentecostals 200 million Claimed to have witnessed miraculous healings Then there's also this other one called from admin tang Yellers and healers Pentecostalism in the study of grassroots christianity in china And his quote is all christian churches in china practice some form of healing in fact according to some surveys 90 percent of new believers cite healing as a reason for their conversion This is especially true in the countryside where medical facilities are often inadequate or non existent So I think that I think there is some evidence that miracles are still happening today And so I think that that would give us at least open up one's mind to the possibility that miracles could have happened in ancient history I'm not seeing any evidence for miracles there. So there's people who believe it's miracle They experience something they can't explain and they label it a miracle that isn't actually evidence of a miracle That's just something they can't explain which they're labeling miracle again I could just label it magic or I could label it aliens messing with them for fun Or I could label it an unknown natural cause or it could be a known natural cause that we can perfectly well explain in Science they just didn't realize it and label it a miracle So that isn't really evidence of miracles the fact that they think it's a miracle That's not how evidence works. You have to actually demonstrate It is a miracle you have to demonstrate that that hypothesis has predictive power not just we can label the past things miracles So one of the ways that you find evidence or you can gather evidence is something they called subjective content analysis And so you're probably familiar with that But what you do if you want to identify if there's evidence of miracles is you you gather up all of the evidence from people You gather all the testimonies and you look for resounding themes And so if you've got 200 million people Basically saying about the same thing with respect to miracles and their own healing And maybe the healing coming right after prayers. That's how bob kimiski snider came about by the way They they were praying for her in a chicago radio station and she was on the verge of death Honestly, her lungs were about to collapse. She barely could breathe. She couldn't see she was blind too All of that Disappeared with the words my child get up and walk. I think it's a powerful case for god I've got a newspaper thing. I'd show you if I could show my screen from rock rockford, uh, illinois Where they actually printed this whole thing back in the early 80s So it's it's a it's a pretty good testimony and she's still around today So I think that uh, if we have evidence of something like that that occurs right after a prayer I think you got a pretty good case for jesus still working in our in us today No, that would be a post-hoc What's it? I forget what it is post-hoc something hawk where you something happens Therefore it happened because of that thing like we can say you rubbed a magic rabbit's foot and got healed Therefore it's due to the magic rabbit's foot But no it was just happened at the right time at the right place. So it was a random association For it to actually be attributed to the miracle or to the prayer You'd have to say does prayer have this effect at a more than chance rate If prayer has no more effects at these miraculous healings than rubbing a magic rabbit's foot Then the prayer probably doesn't do anything. It's not evidence of the prayer It's evidence that there are healings that occur that we don't understand. That's it So in the case of miracles and prayer all the prayer studies we've ever done Failed completely they give no more evidence than chance So it's not the prayer attribute it to the prayer is just to get a post-hoc rationalization You're saying I did a prayer the healing occurred therefore the healing occurred because of the prayer But that's not evidence again for that to be evidence You need to show that the prayer does this more often than just rubbing a magic rabbit's foot And it doesn't and all the scientific tests we've shown that it's post-hoc ergo proctor hoc. Thank you. Nathan ormond Um, so that isn't actually evidence the fact that you had a prayer and you had a healing You're only assuming that because those happened Close to each other in time that the healing was due to the prayer but that's not evidence because you could do the same thing with a rubbing a magic rabbit's foot or Using voodoo or using homeopathy the exact same arguments are used across pseudosciences all across the world We know that kind of argument doesn't work Just like we know that the amount of people being tortured has no relevance to what they believe is being true It was just literally no connection between those two arguments Okay, so I want to I want to talk about what you just mentioned with the prayer studies Why the there's a big study that was funded by the templeton foundation And of course they wanted to probably show that prayers do work But what they did was they was flawed was flawed in a whole bunch of different ways But what they did was they went into a hospital and they had people pray for a they had a couple of groups of people They had a control group and they had a group that people would be praying for All of the people in the hospital were about to go for an operation. Okay, and so with the control group They they didn't have anybody pray for them But with the other group the one that they were going to try to prove that prayers were were working They asked some people who'd never met him before they gave him very little information about the people people were praying from a distance Actually, one of the sex of people who was who were doing that was a group that didn't they weren't evangelicals in any Case just say that these people were not evangelicals doing praying interrupt for a second Well, let me just let me just finish the this this thing. So I wanted to I wanted to just mention like I mean I understand that you can say the templeton foundation was flawed and I can just I can just grant that Okay, I can say the templeton foundation was flawed But that doesn't mean you need to make a study that isn't flawed and show it works and that hasn't ever been done So even if you're right that doesn't help your case at all. Well, let me tell you why I'm right so so the reason I'm right here is because The the the group had no way to control the prayers from the loved ones in the control group So there could be prayers coming in for both groups From loved ones and those prayers would probably be very sincere Very much directed at god And so that's why they were unable to find a difference because whether you can't everybody's going for surgery so at that time you're always praying for your loved ones if you're somebody who's a believer And in a country like the united states the vast majority of people are believers And so you have that situation so there's you can't control the prayers from the loved one So that's why the study is flawed. So as I said as I said, I can just grant the study is flawed That doesn't mean anything So what you need is you need a study that isn't flawed that actually supports your conclusion and there aren't any They all fail. Well, it's impossible to conduct one of those kind of studies. That's why Well, then you have no way to show that your explanation isn't imaginary Because I can say it's impossible to do a study on an invisible ethereal dragon that breathes heatless fire Therefore we can't disprove it. Well, I can just always say it's there even though it's undetectable It makes no Just difference into anything ever has no impact at all Which is makes it unfalsifiable. So it's useless. So the same thing would apply to miracles If there's no way to show it does anything differently than just random chance Then there's no way to show it's not just imaginary and random chance is just doing it on its own So so if you are granting that there is no way to do a study to actually show that miracles are Not imaginary then you're just admitting that there is no way to show that your belief isn't just imaginary made up No, I'm not saying anything about miracles. I was talking about prayers So so I'm saying there's no way to do a study with prayers in a country where you have a lot of people who believe Oh, well the studies have done in countries all over the world with majority christians and minority non christians So it's it's the same across all religions and non religions equally in all countries It's just there's no difference at all. But I was I was not specifically referring to prayer So any testable Predictions about miracles prayer would be a kind of potential miracle would be sufficient. You don't doesn't need to be about prayer So and just to go back to barber camiskey snider in case you didn't hear this part She heard the words my child get up and walk and was suddenly able to walk I think that in alone is self is evidence again that that jesus is still working in this world Pretty hard. I'd also say that you didn't address the fact that How did christianity go from this little obscure Sect in the middle of the ancient near east with a carpenter led by a carpenter and a bunch of fishermen How did some group like that suddenly become so powerful? Without the influence of god to have between five and six million followers In the first 300 years 280 years at a time when basically People were persecuting these people there. There's no material reason for them to believe they had no they didn't get wealth They didn't get fame they didn't get money power. They didn't get anything like that So why why would uh, how did the how did it get so big and how? I mean, what was what was motivating these people to do a lie if they're saying that they're That they're talking about jesus always telling the truth and they wanted to tell the truth What would motivate the apostles to do what they did? Well, the first thing is you mentioned you said barber heard words and somehow that's evidence of magic again That would just be the post hoc ego proctor hawk hearing the words and then associating those words to the miracle isn't Evidence until you can actually demonstrate that there is some connection between those things just like rubbing the magic rabbit's foot If you rub the magic rabbit's foot and then have a healing right after You would have to show that the magic rabbit's foot does this at a more than chance rate Because it could have just been chance just the fact that she heard words isn't evidence that those words caused a miracle Just evidence she heard words. Um, the growth of christianity is just is irrelevant I mean, I can explain it in lots of different ways. There's lots of religions that have grown far faster than christianity Like fall on gong is growing far faster than christianity. Um, there's Mormonism and grew that growing about at the same rate as christianity When it was first initiated Hinduism grew in the same kind of a way. They're persecuted in the same way Um, there's lots of ways for it to grow But even if I just granted that christianity was the only one that ever grew this fast That's still not evidence of anything like the fact that an ideology grows a lot to people believe it at a certain rate Has zero evidence that it's true. I mean if flat earth belief just started to grow and everyone started to believe it That wouldn't make it true. So the fact that lots of people believe it is just a bandwagon fallacy Um, that doesn't actually give you any evidence for being true It's just lots of people chose to believe it at that time. So I don't see how you think that's evidence Well, what about the apostles? What what motivation did they have? Well, I think they believed it So I don't that would be their motivation. They believed it, but that's still not evidence. It's true So They believed it. They said they saw the risen christ. You're saying they believed they saw the risen christ How are you saying that they didn't actually see the risen christ? What's your argument delusions? Very common. You think they all had these shared delusions. So so all of these people They said 500 up to 500 saw the risen christ, but you think that they were all just delusional Well, the 500 is uh questionable because it's not actually 500 It's one guy claiming that 500 saw it which there's no actually There's no testimony from the 500 We just have testimony of the guy who wrote and said 500 people saw it And that's the same thing of people writing to say a million people saw ufo's and rosswell It's like unless you can actually back that up with the testimony from the 500 It's just an assertion even if I grant that we grant the 500 people all saw it Yeah, that's still better explained by a bereavement delusion a shared bereavement delusion than a miracle because we actually have evidence bereavement delusions happen We have no evidence miracles happen So if you want to explain an event it's better to explain it with things We already know happen and can't explain it than to assert a new thing that has no basis in reality can do it Because I can say a magic leprechaun caused them to cause delusion or an all of them at the same time Or aliens just created a giant projection screen of jesus for Kicks and giggles But those aren't good explanations because we have no basis for those things just like a miracle isn't a good explanation A better explanation is we have natural things that we know can do that like bereavement delusions And so that would be a better explanation than asserting new things we have no evidence for to explain an event So to put your argument together with his bereavement delusion. Here's what you're saying So you're and let me see if I get any this correct So you're saying that the so you've got peter who denied jesus three times And went into hiding he wasn't there when jesus was crucified You've got paul who was originally persecuting christians and uh making sure that they were all jailed and put in prison And in some cases he was actually standing at the feet of people who were being killed like st Stevens and you have james jesus his half brother who tried to stop his ministry So there's three people right there Who who are among many who said that they saw the risen christ and so then you say um Then you see what happened to them after some point They all said they saw the risen christ and they started preaching for him for decades Suddenly peter who denied him and done some pretty embarrassing things in the gospels is going around in the book of acts Healing people he's doing all sorts of things and he's able to get a group of people To follow him because he's committing miracles in jesus's name. You've got james The half brother who tried to stop his ministry jesus appeared to him too And now he's writing books in there and he ended up being killed He worked in jerusalem at one of the temples and he was killed Martyred for his work and that was evidenced by josephus and then you've got paul. I'm sorry No, I already mentioned paul james peter. Yeah paul basically i mentioned him already So we've got these three people who all changed their minds came around after jesus was crucified So if this was just a delusion What motivation would they have to say no, it's not a delusion We basically saw the risen christ and they were beaten stone jailed I mean paul could have had a pretty easy life if he didn't if he just you know told the line He wouldn't have been martyred. Well, again, so whether or not he had an easy life or hard life is just irrelevant There's there's nothing to do with any of the evidence. It makes no difference one way or the other just like saying I'm holding the cup there for god. It's just completely irrelevant. It makes no difference at all um If it was a delusion delusions You don't think are delusions because then it wouldn't be a delusion you think they're real That's what makes them a delusion So they saw a delusion like it's it's very common for people who persecute A demographic and then feel guilt for it to have bereavement delusions of the people they killed or the ideology Behind the people they killed and have conversions to those so paul converting to christianity after he tortured and killed millions of Lots of christians isn't really surprising They need a bereavement delusion of jesus and then started to follow jesus because of his guilt Absolutely, none of that is special in any way And saying that they got lots of followers is pretty not surprising at all There's a russian guy right now starts with a v i forgot his name who claims to be jesus and he has thousands of followers like There's people on instagram who post cats videos who have thousands of followers This is not a surprising fact that people follow people they admire who are charismatic and interesting So none of that is spectacular none of that is evidence of miracles the growth rate is an evidence of miracles The fact that people believe it isn't evidence of miracles the fact that they saw people after they claimed to have seen people After they died isn't evidence of miracles all of those are explained Really easily with natural things like it's there's no evidence there at all I mean the flat earth actually has more evidence because at least they can claim to see the world looking flat from a distance That's at least something that could qualify as evidence, but the resurrection doesn't have any it's just an assertion That's it Okay, so I want to say a couple of things to what you said one is You pointed out to some examples in modern times of people who are following certain people But as gamma leal pointed out in acts 5 when a lot of these people came up like thudas and he mentioned Judas the Galilean So when a lot of these people come to power and they have people following them and then they die eventually the The cult dies out and so jesus is kept going on so actually that gives us evidence that it's it's true The other let me just finish the other religions that you mentioned before Don't have somebody saying that he resurrected from the dead The jesus is a situation and circumstance is not comparable to all of those other religions you mentioned And the other thing is paul certainly didn't have a bereavement delusion paul wasn't bereaving jesus In fact, he was busy persecuting jesus So so you can't explain paul with your bereavement delusion and the last thing i want to say is people delusions You don't have mass delusions. That's like saying you could share a dream. It's absolutely impossible to share a delusion All right, so the first thing is uh again as you keep bringing up things that have no evidence at all They're just random unassociated facts. I can say there's a tree outside and claim that's evidence of a god Clearly that isn't evidence of anything. It's just a random useless fact saying that they were persecuted It's just a random useless fact. It's not evidence of anything Secondly, yes paul could definitely have a bereavement delusion people who will persecute like nazis who would Persecute and kill jews would be feel guilty and have bereavement delusions of jews or jesus or the Their religious beliefs and gods and see god afterward and their visions and change That's a really common thing So yes, people who persecute and like paul would very likely have a bereavement more likely than anybody else actually But so that's easy to explain again nationally perfectly And even if it wasn't that's still not evidence of anything because it's just something you can't explain So no like everything you just mentioned isn't evidence at all like So yes, there are people and it's not just past religions There are people who follow groups throughout all time The fact that they don't are analogous today or two thousand years ago or three thousand years ago or four thousand years ago There are always groups of people following charismatic other people. It's the thing throughout all time It's not just it's somehow special because it's two thousand years ago And my my analogies and examples aren't specifically just about this time That's those are just the ones that came to mind first this happens throughout all time So again, none of that is special. This is all common things that happen every day The sun rose tomorrow runs rises tomorrow. That's not going to be evidence of a god We already know that's going to happen. We already know people follow charismatic people We already know people have bereavement delusions We already know people have bereavement delusions of people they persecute because of guilt complexes None of that is special. This is all like super common knowledge stuff That is super easy to explain under naturalism. There's there's not even a question there The okay, so so since you said we have to have evidence and it has to be To be able to show something is true What evidence do you have that somebody was was uh had a bereavement delusion turned around their life and started Preaching for somebody for the next 40 years What evidence do you have to say that's bereavement illusion is going to lead somebody to do something like what paul did? Because you must have evidence because otherwise we can't justify your claim Because we see people changing their lives all the time for lots of reasons name one Name one who had a bereavement delusion and turned their lives We know people turn their lives around all the time for lots of different reasons So having a bereavement illusion being the reason is not a stretch at all It's like saying there are so it's there's lots of reasons people change their life around Losing weight changing religion changing political structure getting married All kinds of reasons that people turn their lives around like there's just no limit on what could you could just you can see Robin, what's his name? Francis Collins saw a three tiered water flaw and Waterfall in the forest and came to god and turned his life around for that Like it's people turn their lives around for any random reason you can think of because people are silly That isn't the fact that they would do it for a bereavement illusion is not surprising at all Again again just super common thing that we know about humans all around the world throughout all time Humans do silly things and change their lives for all kinds of reasons So that isn't really something I need to provide evidence for it's just common knowledge Okay, so basically you're saying that paul had a bereavement delusion Are you familiar with the story of paul on the road to damascus? Yes Okay, so so what did paul what does paul say happened to him on or what is luke document? I should say that that happened to paul on the road to damascus He saw jesus or saw like a vision of something I don't think he actually decided jesus it was more like just energy or something that he couldn't explain And he attributed it to jesus a herd of voice or something And what was he doing at the time? Persecuting christians are going to persevere christians or something like that. Okay. Yeah, so he's so he's going down the road to damascus He's he's he's you know on the on the heels of having just gone to the to the jews to get legal What's it called legal support for the fact that he was going to go and arrest christians? People following the way over in damascus. So he's on his way to damascus. He's got his papers He's ready to go He cannot wait to get there because he's going to be able to go house to house to house To go inside the house is arresting people and pulling them out. That's the plan He's got people accompanying him and suddenly he says that he sees jesus and jesus said he said Saul Saul, why do you persecute me? He said, who are you lord? I am jesus whom you are persecuting So then suddenly paul can't see he's blinded for a few days as soon as his Then suddenly he can see after three days. He'd ananias came in and Was able to touch him and the blindness went away and for the next 40 or so years He preached for jesus now that this doesn't sound like a bereavement delusion It's you're not looking at the whole story for what actually happened. That sounds exactly like a bereavement delusion In fact, so he's on his way to damascus with his papers to to get ready to go house to house And why do you arrest the christians? And you're saying that suddenly out of the blue. He just has this bereavement delusion Yes, if you kill lots of people, there's probably going to be lingering guilt inside of you It's not like he was just completely unaffected like I'm killing christians and having fun with this It's probably that he's suffered from serious guilt issues for massively killing lots of people like most people do And so those guilt issues built up inside of him to some point have this bereavement delusion Like there's nothing surprising about that at all the fact that he was in the middle of his job to go persecute more christians Doesn't isn't like evidence of anything like yes So many nazis who are going to kill jews would have bereavement delusions and break down from guilt on the way to do their job And then stop doing their job like that. Yes, that's happened all the time. Do you have evidence of that? Yes Where's that? Where can I find that? Nazis and people who have killed other people saying they had guilt and then recanted and stopped while they're on their way to kill them While they're on their way to kill them You're saying that there are people on their way to kill somebody and so what evidence do you have? Yes, that is super super common people on the way to kill someone like oh, I have guilt I'm not going to do that that is that happens all the time actually Okay, so what do I have it is like can reference a book or a study anything that I can go find because I mean I believe that it could be possible. I just want to find the reference Yeah, most like murder cases go through someone is going to kill a murder going to try to commit a murder And then they stop and then turn away most murders go that way. They actually don't follow through that's just Common police knowledge. It's not it's not like you actually commit and then go through with it more often than you commit and then Change your mind that happens more often than not So this is there's nothing about that that's surprising again. That's super common I'm not even following your point here So even if we granted that he wanted to kill christians and then had like a epileptic shock or something seizure That would still be better evidence than miracle Like there are lots of different natural ways to explain that and they're all better than A new magical thing happened that we have no evidence for in reality So even if you don't want to accept the bereavement illusion There's still about a million other natural ways to explain that none of which involve magic So what's another way to explain it? Um, if we didn't shock human do we have evidence paul had epilepsy? We don't we have evidence that humans have epilepsy So it's possible he had absolutely because humans have epilepsy like if I said I saw a dog That's reasonable to believe because we have lots of evidence of dogs So saying paul had epilepsy is reasonable to believe because we have evidence of people with epilepsy It is not reasonable to believe paul saw magic because we have no evidence of magic. That's like the I saw unicorn So paul had epilepsy no matter how improbable it is It's always going to be better than magic because we have no evidence of magic It's like I saw a dog is always more reasonable than I saw a unicorn There's no case in which I saw a dog is less reasonable than unicorn So we we do have when I go back to barba camiskey snider We actually have evidence of people who were in the church who saw her walking who had seen her in a wheelchair And who knew knew about the radio station praying for her. So using your same argument I'd say we have evidence today of a miracle. Therefore a miracle could have happened in the past Which part of that was evidence of a miracle again. That's a post hoc echo proctor hock fellacy So I grant what can just grant she walked. I don't know anything about her story So I don't know one way or the other Well, let's just say she did walk in in the church and suddenly wasn't blind And suddenly didn't have crumpled up feet and suddenly your after Yeah, I can just grant all of that that's still not evidence of a miracle because you're here's Take a miracle Testable predictions. What is it today? Testable predictions testable predictions. So again saying here's an event that happened And I can explain that as a miracle isn't evidence Like we can explain it as magic or aliens or no natural causes We can say an event happened and explain it in infinitely many ways None of that is evidence for it to be evidence You need to say if my hypothesis is true We're going to make a prediction about what happens in the future and then get that right Just saying miraculous thing happened. We're going to label it miracle isn't evidence That's like again the magic rabbit's foot rubbing a magic rabbit's foot and then having this happen Isn't evidence is caused by the rabbit's foot Just because some event happened And there's prayers beforehand Does not mean the event was caused by the prayers. That's a post hoc echo proctor hock fallacy Give you a chance to respond to the second sj. I just wanted to mention we will go Before going to the q&a we will have five minute closings But that's in just a little bit want to give you a heads up That will probably go for maybe about another five or 10 minutes and then go into those closing statements followed by q&a So thanks so much back to you sj and tom Thank you. I I just want to say I really appreciate tom's politeness I've never been in a debate with him. Actually I have we talked about something once we had more people in it though But yeah, yeah, we did abortion. I forgot about that. Um, but but I really have to commend you for that I think it's uh, it's it's a wonderful thing. You're you're it's very easy to talk to you even though We don't have an agreement here. I have to say that it's it's very easy to talk to you And so I'll debate with you or talk to you anytime so I'm enjoying this and I like your chair too We I'll have to get a chair like that because that chair is like rocking man so um, but but I just want to say uh I see I would say that we have pretty good evidence of miracles today And I'd say we have evidence of miracles in the past and I'd say just by looking at the example of jesus and what he did to To societies and western societies is also Evidence that led even somebody like tom holland who wrote the book dominion from his agnosticism to christianity He just identified some of the things that christians have done through the years and the value that they give to individuals And he said wow, you know, that's it's it's pretty amazing that obviously this man who came is pretty special So it's my argument Yeah, so we're doing the conclusions now right is that what that was the conclusion there Was that your conclusion s j or were you just giving a rebuttal to tom's last no Yeah, I can I can do a conclusion Okay, trying to remember we I think we had s j start So we'll have s j start the conclusions as well And then we'll flip it over to tom for his roughly five minute closing. Then we will go into the qna Okay, so I uh, again, I want to say thank you to to tom. Thank you to all of you In my conclusion, I want to say the way that you mentioned um, Francis collins and I want to say one of the things that he did under that waterfall Was he reflected on c s louis's trilemma? And c s louis's trilemma is what led me to christianity one of the ways that I was led to christianity It was a bunch of things that kept happening right around the same time But I got the book from a pastor's recommendation a chance meeting on an airplane And I read this passage and as soon as I read it It was almost as if god had filled me with just the spirit of of yes This is the truth and here's what it is a man who is merely a man and said the sort of things jesus said Would not be a great moral teacher He would either be lunatic on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg Or else he would be the devil of hell you must make your choice Either this man was and is the son of god or else a madman or something worse You can shut him up for a fool you can spit at him and kill him as a demon Or you can follow his feet and call him lord and god But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about him being a great human teacher He has not let that open to us. He did not intend to so that that basically is one of the ways that I thought Supported this thing and another thing is the last thing I'm going to say is We do have all of the theories that the people have created to try to refute the resurrection are not with merit Some have said that he faked his death, but we have no ancient evidence for that It fails to explain the change in the apostles some say he had a twin We have no ancient evidence of that that also fails to explain the change in the apostles Some say he was buried in a mass grave. We have no ancient evidence either First Corinthians 15 is an early creed within a few years of jesus resurrection that refutes it But also so does what jocephus and tacitus said and also in deuteronomy 21 That shows that jewish people buried people even if they were criminals Disciples stole the body we we have no body and that fails to explain the change in the apostles mass hallucination like dreams Those are internal and they can't be shared Plus jesus appeared to them in many modes where they couldn't see here Where they could see here touch and be in his presence The apostles conspired some might say but people don't risk their lives for decades for a lie They were uniquely positioned to know the truth and then the last one is someone would say miracles aren't possible But yet we do have evidence for miracles today as I pointed out. Thank you Thanks so much. We will kick it over to tom for his five minute closing and go into the qna after thanks so much Tom and sj. Yeah, so as I mentioned in the beginning if I told you I saw a dog That's reasonable to believe if I told you I saw a unicorn that's not reasonable to believe the differences that dogs have an implicit empirical basis And so Unicorns don't so there's no reason to believe miracle unicorns exist just because I said so the same thing applies to the resurrection There's no evidence of miracles at all not today not in the past ever at any time It's never been shown to be anything more than imaginary. They're just people saying here's something I can't explain that I'm going to label it as a miracles post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy We're every single time we try to test any type of miracles in a scientific setting to show They actually are real it fails 100% of the time just like homeopathy and dowsing and all the other pseudosciences They just there's just no basis for that So to believe that like just pick the worst possible natural explanation of the account of the gospel say Jesus had 10 twin brothers the octuplet or whatever and there was a mass delusion of Epic proportions that every like 10,000 people all had a mass delusion just imagined it to be the case That explanation is still better than miracles. I mean miracles is that bad. It has no basis at all So anything we can just cobble together of random natural possibilities of delusion or epilepsy They all had epilepsy at the exact same time That is still a better explanation than miracles because miracles has no evidential basis at all So the miracle explanation of Jesus resurrection is just terrible that flat earth literally has more evidence than that than the resurrection of jesus because at least we can see things on flat earth At least they present things we can see they have a basis of some kind the resurrection of jesus has no evidence whatsoever all we have is a bunch of assertions That stuff happened that has no basis in reality like saying I saw a unicorn we We will now go into the qna So thanks so much folks for all of your questions really excited to read through these And want to let you know just a couple of quick things as I mentioned Both the speakers are linked in the description and you can check out their channels as well John loy thanks for your super chat who said thank you for your time t jump and sj You got some street cred guys John loy thanks for your super chat who also said and thank you james appreciate that john loy Then apollo jedi thanks for your super chat who said thanks for never giving up Despite your internet provider failing you found a way for just for us to hear today's debates hit like Thanks so much apollo jedi that means a lot because when the uh when we have tech issues It's like I believe me nobody feels worse about it than I do it's honestly So I appreciate that uh that support that is positivity Holy skepticism thanks for your super chat who's said uh thanks for all of your hard work to uh james and the debaters and persevering Proud to support we'll appreciate that holy skepticism Vekkel thanks for your super chat who said to my sister sj. He is risen in all caps Amen Gotcha michael dresden. Thanks for your super chat who said hope tom you got a scare you got a critic tommy uh michael dresden regular neighborhood trolls says hope tom doesn't lose two in a row after last night Yeah, those uh those pictures of dinosaurs and the fake footprints are just such damning evidence I just there's nothing I can do against that. It's just it's just the greatest evidence ever Gotcha next up appreciate your super chat from sygephredo syrabia with a lot of emoticons. Thanks so much appreciate your support henrik simonson. Thanks for your super chat who said many religions survived and grew despite rulers etc by that metric we should all worship many religions at once now i'm not convinced sj Okay, well I many religions aren't represented by jesus christ So it's it's through jesus that christianity is completely different from these other religions Gotcha, appreciate that next up. Thanks for your super chat writer john buck who says christ is risen Dwayne berk. Thanks for your super chat who said carol baskin is t jumps mam Or mom i am confused. I'm trying to remember who carol baskin is. I thought I saw her recently I don't know who carol baskin is. All right. John. Lloyd. Thanks for your super chat who said modern day debate would t jump prefer jesus uh in other words in parentheses believed in heaven Or ted bundy in parentheses believed when he was in prison Uh as a neighbor. Thank you. Uh, let's see. Would I rather have jesus or ted bundy as a neighbor? Probably yes Gotcha, let's see trying to make sense of that one john. Forgive me if i've Butchered it but we can come back to it if you clarify for me brian stevens. Thanks for your super chat Josephus says he says josephus was so convinced he remained a jew Oh sj. He's coming at you No, there's there's definitely a group of people who've remained jews But a lot of jewish people are in the jewish are jews for jesus Or i'd refer you to somebody like michael brown. Dr. Michael brown did a lot of investigation of the old testament And came to believe in jesus because he realized the past just like isaia 53 really point to him Gotcha appreciate your super chat from movie theory who says Tom in all caps already lost in all caps said he doesn't even realize it Yes, I also have a million dollars on my bank account. I don't realize it too. All right Thank you brian stevens for your super chat who said but prayers over the radio work dot dot dot Can can you heal an amputee? Please demonstrated that I count that if you can do that that's evidence For sj. Not for you tom Prayers over i'm not saying that prayers from afar cannot work I'm just saying that the chances of a prayer from afar for a stranger working over The loved ones praying for somebody Is it seems to me that the loved ones prayers would be a little bit stronger because they're more sincere And so my my basic point is in barbara's case is she didn't just have the radio prayers She also had the prayers of her whole family and her whole church Gotcha appreciate that and thanks so much for your super chat from Dwayne berk who says t jump's chair resurrected from the dump Oh, it's a nice chair though. I like that chair It's a it's his uh clam shell chair Apollo jedi thanks for your super chat who said tom getting destroyed right now correction in all caps spanked By by my imaginary jesus. Yep. I had a bereavement illusion of jesus making me It's it's it's true. You got a lot of criticism Skeptic whiz thanks for your super chat who says sj's in all caps I don't know what the all caps is this is it all goes dismantling tom right now bad Yep, totally happened I think maybe he had a bereavement illusion Arne ruravik. Thanks for your super chat who said children ain't thriving in the hood Sj. Want to help me quote relocate them Relocate children who aren't thriving in the hood. Yep. There's a certainly if there's some sort of ways we can we can work with them Gotcha, there's something we can do. Yeah, contact me Appreciate that next up appreciate your super chat from our Let's see uh skeptic whiz again. Let's see That's like a duplicate. Uh, so I I don't know if I was on purpose or not arne ruravik Thanks for your super chat who said sj. Who would you rather? Want to be the relocated or the relocator? The relocator it's giving is more important than receiving Gotcha next up appreciate your super chat from our arne ruravik again Who says question for sj. If you were a sword bearing relocator, do you think you'd ever get a good night's sleep? No, I wouldn't want to forcibly relocate anybody I thought he meant if people really want to get out of a bad place If there's a way that we can peaceably relocate them peacefully relocate him. I should say Gotcha, robert. They want to be relocated so Robert summers. Thanks for your super chat who said besides personal testimony. What is the evidence for the resurrection? I haven't heard any yet Well, I'd say that I think would you look at the basic facts even extra biblically and you put them all together and you say What's the best explanation of these different facts? It points to jesus and I would also say that the fulfilled 330 prophecies in the old testament like ones like daniel nine daniel nine gave us a specific date for when the anointed one was going to be coming into the temple And that actually happened exactly 483 years after the decree of art exert season 444 bc So we've got we've got a specific time We've got even from the jewish people a specific time when they expected the messiah So that kind of thing I think plays a pretty good case for the resurrection of jesus Gotcha, appreciate it next up super chat from let's see Got robert apologetic who said never seen someone get as destroyed as tom right now Wow Oh, um nathan in the chat mentioned the questions about the relocation were in reference to when sj said that God relocates canaanite children to heaven That's those those the point they were oh, okay. Okay. I didn't know that's what I thought he was talking about people like saying a Bad part of town or something you want to get out Gotcha next up appreciate it We'll get to your super chat zanos carthage. We're working our way through the list Appreciate it carmel krunk. Thanks for your super chat who says t jump after jesus's crucifixion What caused the events which allowed and led to the rise of christianity from a small backwater province in roam The exact same things that allowed the growth of literally literally every religion from backwater places literally everywhere in the world So people are people that's that's the extent of what was required there Gotcha. Thanks so much. Sige freight. Sige freight. Oh, sir. Rabia in the house straight out of la appreciate it says acts 21 21 James confronts sol or paul on rumors that paul had become An apostate on the entire mosaic law If paul killed james through christian jewish people is paul's religion correct Or is it james the brother of jesus? I think they mean like is it his religion instead? If that's kind of a hard so if paul killed james because james said paul They were arguing over the circumcision and they were arguing whether or not to allow gentiles not get circumcised Who are uncircumcised to join the movement? And so uh, so i don't think that any argument like that is something that would lead to anybody killing And of course paul said to follow his example many times Because he was trying to exemplify jesus and jesus said those who live by the sword will die by the sword He didn't kill anybody I think the point they were trying to make is that you mentioned that these people were persecuted for their beliefs And you implied that that made it more likely it was true So if Those two people had a disagreement and one of them killed the other Based off of your argument it would seem like whoever was killed Well, their belief is more likely true because they died for their belief. I think that's the point they were trying to make Yeah, no, i'm not saying that because they died for their belief it makes a belief true That's absolutely not something i'm trying to say I'm trying to say when you put together the cumulative evidence For the resurrection and you look at all of the all of the information that we have Fulfilled prophecies all of the minimal facts all that kind of stuff you look at undesigned coincidences in the gospels And and when you put all that together and you say what's the best explanation? It's jesus resurrected It's not just one piece of the the puzzle. You've got to look at the whole puzzle Gotcha next up. Thanks for your super chat from nick who says sj chapter and verse in the bible where jesus appears to james you said he appeared to james Yeah, first carinthians 15 Gotcha a poser of religion. Thanks for your super chat who says thanks for your channel I seriously love it. Thanks to the debaters as well. There's no channel like mdd. Well, appreciate that positive encouragement Nope sound is still off Yeah, your kind words appreciate that and let me uh, just check here if i've got the yeti plugged in or if it's working Perfect, but yes, thanks so much a poser of religion. We appreciate that encouragement, especially on a hard day Movie theory. Thanks for your super chat who said tom making stuff up. He can't cite any sources lol If you want you can respond. You don't have to Uh, the bible there you go source Gotcha next up appreciate your I think he was referring I think to the idea that people have this bereavement stuff and he was talking about the nazis having it So I just I didn't know if he had a source for that Now on the top of my head I can get you one, but they're pretty common again 15 of the population everyone has them pretty common I think that was it came up. I think it was when the question was like Do people have guilt on their way to kill somebody but Same thing. Yeah, again, it's pretty common Movie theory. Uh, thanks for your super chat again who says Tom's cringe script is painful to listen to I'll just read the rest of there They said tom lost two in a row in all caps neff last night and now lol this guy's a troll I'm sorry It's just so like The trolling so obvious. I don't know if it's gonna work. Um, but go ahead if you want to respond tom if you're angry You can respond Sorry, james can pay me for my my disservices Next up charles bradley. Thanks for your super chat who says sj. Where are the amputee healing miracles? Hmm. Well, I haven't seen any amputee healing miracles But I'd say somebody with a collapsed lung and and legs that are all curled up and the fact that she's blind is a pretty distinctive miracle Gotcha. Thanks so much appreciate your super chat from Let's see beta whore energy. She says sj. If you don't believe in group hallucinations How do you explain people seeing mary on a rooftop? for example four coptic bishops authenticated this and 50,000 people seeing the sun hop around at fatima I would actually if all of those people made that claim and they seem sincere I probably would be like it would be likely to me that say that that probably happened Gotcha appreciate your super chat from subtracted who says why won't god heal amputees? Why won't god heal amputees? I think I think people ask that question because they don't want to pay attention to what god does heal God's healed blind people. He's healed the deaf. He's he actually when when peter went and Took a sword to the ear of the soldier who is capturing him The ear came off and peter in the story that jesus put the ear back on So actually that is sort of an amputation of an ear that jesus put right back on the person's head I think the reason they do that is because we have natural ways to explain all the other healings like sight and ulcers and Mental things but not for arms. We've never seen that happen naturally. So that would be a good miracle Let's see. We'll let ashay have the last word on that one just because it was originally for her And then we're going to go to this next one robert summers. Thanks for your super chat. We're going to work down the list and get to that Uh ashay if you want to respond you can otherwise. I'll go to the next one No, I would I would just say that's that's I think there are miracles out there I definitely think when somebody asked if I'm a catholic in the chat I used to be a catholic. I was raised a catholic. I'm not anymore But but I do believe that uh, mather mary has made appearances to people So I have pretty strong beliefs in that gotcha arne ruravik. Thanks for your super chat who says Ashay, why did all the miracles stop when the camera phone was invented? Look it up I think there are still miracles happening today. Uh, just like I pointed out in china with a study in the pew study There's there's thousands of people saying miracles have happened today. So I don't think that they've stopped by any stretch Gotcha josephus revero. Thanks for your super chat who said thanks for yet another great debate thumbs up Appreciate that josephus all credit to the speakers Brad everson. Thanks for your super chat who says does tom think testimony is evidence Yes, testimony is evidence of things that already have an empirical basis But if it doesn't have an empirical basis, then no testimony cannot be evidence for it Gotcha, appreciate it. Next up appreciate your let's see super chat from our dearest friend adam burkholz Who said how can we show jesus did not resurrect if indeed he didn't Jesus doesn't talk or do anything living people do. So why call him alive? I I'd say today jesus makes a lot of appearances in people's lives Including my own the reason I came back to jesus is because he's made himself known to me in significant spiritual ways And so I think he's working and i'm not alone I'm one of probably billions of people who's who's he's impacting including a lot of people over muslim countries are saying that They're starting to see jesus and their dreams and things like that even though they had never planned to worship him in that way Gotcha, thanks so much and nick. Thanks for your super chat. We're working down the list. We'll definitely get to it We appreciate it Sige fredos arabia From los angeles. Thanks for your super chat who says tom jump if jesus existed and didn't do what's in the gospels What did he really do? If not, what answer do you have for new testament scholars or historians? uh, all of the things that are natural and Accounted for by natural processes. He probably did do those are like accepted by history So there's not really any controversy there He did all the things that people said they did like walking to places. He just didn't do the miracles miracles are just all made up Gotcha. Thanks for your super chat from dwayne burke who says t jump the love child of rolf harris and joe exotic What was the tiger guys Everybody wants to everybody wants t jump to be their son. That's true I think i think the tiger king the tiger king show, um I'm looking up rolf harris. Uh, he's apparently 89 and he was recently seen using a walking stick As he was delivering Page is still loading it's embarrassing Uh, as he was delivering paintings to neighbors near his berkshire home Is that your dad? Thanks for that super chat from brandon ardaline Who said I want to hear a miracle that can't be debunked by science psychology or common sense Also, why are modern miracles so wimpy compared to the bibles? I'd make an argument like the barbara of komiski snider one. I'd have everybody just go look her up I think that that's hardly wimpy so Gotcha. Thanks so much for your super chat from Frank's 92 who said to sj. Why did jesus leave after he resurrected? Yeah, so jesus resurrected and he left 40 days later He appeared to people over a period of 40 days and then during the pentecost He was raised into heaven and the reason he says he was doing that at that point Is because the holy spirit would come back and fill everybody up with with uh courage love power all that kind of stuff And so then uh, that was the reason so the holy spirit is sort of working through everyone who calls on him Gotcha. Appreciate that next up appreciate your super chat from Xenos carthage who says what's their opinions on turtles you guys like turtles? Yeah, I love turtles. Yeah turtles are nice. They taste really good in soup A poor turtle thanks for your super chat robert summers who says what radio station do we need to get involved to get God to miraculously stop kids from dying from cancer. Why doesn't he care about them? Oh, what did I hear on that? I heard a really good explanation for something like that today and I can't remember not forgetting exactly what it was but but basically You know god has sets our beginning dates and our ending dates according to His plan and he's sovereign and he made us so he's within his rights to do that Gotcha. Thanks. Brian Stevens for your patreon question Said did the members of heavens gate die for something that is true or something they believed to be true They died for something that is false But they believed it to be true But heavens gate, uh, didn't see the risen jesus. They didn't see jesus over 40 days. They didn't eat with him There was nothing like that. It's not a not a comparable. It's a false equivalency Gotcha. Thanks so much for your super chat from nick Says then he appeared to james. This is quoting first Corinthians 15 then to all the apostles That's first Corinthians 15, but in the gospels. He appears to the the apostles first Contradiction. Thank you, ashay. We have evidence of a contradiction in the bible folks No, it actually says he appeared to he didn't appear to james. He appeared to peter first Then he appeared to the 500 then he appeared to james I'm sorry He appeared to peter then the 12th then the 500 then to james And that's exactly how it works out because james wasn't one of the ones who was following him In his with the 12 apostles initially So it was he appeared to what they called the 12 which was the people who were holed up essentially Trying to hide from being persecuted Gotcha robert blair Thanks for your final super chat. They said uh, sj god said you need this in love papa legba What's that? I don't know. That's interesting. Appreciate that So, uh, do appreciate it folks. I had one more from brian stevens And then we can wrap up. It's it's been a fun time folks I've got to kind of hammer away at some stats research stuff that i'm behind on embarrassingly Let's see Appreciate your kind words adam berkholz and uh adam abilia. Thanks for your patreon comments said t jump if you ever need a kidney I'm here. Just keep up the good work Thanks, man. That's I really appreciate it. My kidneys are good. I do need a new car though Gotcha, I think I adam. I'm so sorry. I think I mispronounced. I did it again adam abilia appreciate your question comment and then let's see Martianista, thanks for your kind words who said thank you for a civil entertaining debate and thank you to your debaters Dr. sj thomason and t jump Thanks. Yeah, thank you. Totally appreciate your positive words peeps Really nice and then uh, where is that brian? There it is brian. Stephen says does sj also believe the claims from islam regarding miracles They have lots of witnesses too No, I don't believe those claims Gotcha, and I think the only one that he's referring to the only miracle that i've heard of and I could be completely mistaken Because i'm not that familiar with islam, but I think the one with muhammad roping the moon I I don't think that that was evidenced by a whole bunch of people I mean muhammad cut the moon in half But I think he was meaning modern muslims modern modern muslims experience miracles at the same rate of Christians do or something like that. I think that's the claim he's making not about oh, okay Okay, that's what he's saying. I don't think that I don't I would be I think god works miracles for all peoples So I don't see any reason to think that muslims wouldn't experience miracles god loves them too Thanks so much folks. I appreciate this every time. It's always seriously a blast to be here You guys are just goofy in the chat appreciate getting to hang out with you there as well And so do what reminds you one last time I've put both tom's and dr. Sj's links in the description last super chat just flew in from dean meadows Thanks for that said tom. What would convince you a miracle took place? uh Destable predictions. So if you say I believe miracles happen and if a miracle happens like for example If I pray to a god If I say if miracles are true and I pray to a god a gold brick will appear And I pray to a god and a gold brick appears that would convince me miracle happens So it's just any kind of testable predictions where you take the hypothesis miracles happen predict that they will occur in the future and then We observe them occurring in the future in that way that you predicted that would be evidence Gotcha Appreciate that and do want to let you know folks things that we were excited about want to let you know If we ever have a debate if you ever see it on our channel is like an upcoming stream Want to let you know We Are willing to hold or I should say basically we're willing to give a shout out to and also put the link in the description Of anybody who wants to do an after show so it doesn't matter which side it is If if it's like an after show that is like a christian channel an atheist channel We will link both sides or just the one side whoever wants to have the after show And we will like I said mention it We just if you just do me a favor email me the link before the stream if you plan on doing that And then also just want to say I can't say thanks enough. It's always a true pleasure here We have postponed the team skeptic versus flat earth aussie debate That's probably maybe going to be next saturday depending on how things pan out So that will not be tonight however, very excited that uh We will also not be having a debate tomorrow But we will be back Monday and we are going to be having that tag team debate I mentioned at the bottom right of your screen and we've got a lot of other really fun ones coming up folks I'm honestly pumped. It's just been a blast. So thanks so much folks Keep submitting out the reasonable from the unreasonable and uh last again Thanks to our speakers and also thanks to praise for running obs or uh, yeah running obs for us today as You probably all heard that my internet has crashed earlier today at least Uh, it's just kind of intermittently crashes. So we we can't really do streams on it so Praise if you're there. We are ready to go off air. Are you there praise? Do you want to say hi? Thank you very much. They're very nice very charming. Okay, but yes, uh I could you guys are to hear really quick. It's my praise impression But it's been totally debunked gosh So, yeah, that's uh, I just Dr. Josh does an even better one. It's honestly, it's hilarious. So Thanks so much folks. We hope you have a great rest of your day