 We thought it'd be fun to talk a little bit about music as the show We don't normally talk about music although Johnny my co-host is a musician I'm more the business side So it was interesting to unpack your book from both of our lenses And I thought it'd be fun to just talk a little bit about what your first music memory is that shaped your life And I'll go first because I don't normally share this on the show But growing up with a single dad My first real music experience was the summer in michigan and my dad rolling down all the windows in our car and our family sedan and turning up the volume on eric claptons layla And singing every single word of that song just as gleeful as could be and I just remember him being so happy And starting to realize just how music was so powerful for him to evoke that emotion And that memory will forever stay with me So I was curious what your first musical memories are and how this shaped your lives I was thinking that there's a my first musical experience and then like my first Pop music experience. They're both significant to me. So you know, I I grew up in going to church with my family my both my parents Play piano and sing and so If my mom wasn't playing piano at the church, you know, my dad was singing in the choir and and I I learned music that way. So to speak I learned about harmonies and um orchestration arrangements and all but what moved me was um the first record I ever bought Which was Joan Jett in a black heart. So I love rock and roll And I just remember the first time I hear in those those chords like Da na da na da na It's like it just it made something inside me shake and I had to have it. It was so raw Um, I still love that song to this day. I think it's an amazing song I just did a a bit where I was discussing how she was my first crush Which is probably why everything went sideways Wonderful I can I can relate panos what she got for us I grew up in Cyprus, which actually is where I am right now by coincidence and I remember turning on the tv It was probably around 1978 or 79. So it was, you know, six years old and There was a black and white movie called king creole with Elvis Presley and walter map out Oh, yeah, and Elvis started as this awesome bass line And the eponymous song king creole that Elvis sings is still to this day one of my favorite songs And that trio, you know, the Elvis Presley trio I think is one of the most underappreciated musical trios in history because every one of those guys DJ Fontana and scottie more They're just amazing amazing musicians and so is Elvis and I just don't think you often get The credit that you should be as a musician. So that that is my first Childhood sort of musical experience that frankly set me down to a path of wanting to move to America And wanting to be music It's interesting that you say that Elvis had been responsible for a lot of people wanting to move to America and playing music We can certainly See his influence on the Beatles and and everyone else who had followed I I loved hearing that and scottie more. Oh, yes, the backup musicians Ridiculous Elvis doesn't get enough credit as you mentioned. I think his hips get more credit than him But he was just as Comparable as a musician as the rest of those guys For myself, it was it's difficult for me to pinpoint this because I grew up in a musical family Music was a big part of my household. My dad played in bands They played and rehearsed at my house. They played at the the club on the weekends and because of that There there was always a radio on or there was rehearsals. There was always musical instruments in the house However, when I heard AJ ask this question I can I can definitely pinpoint the first time music moved me in a way that was not Was feelings that I've never had felt before and We used in the summertime As kids would do we play pickup games with the other neighbor kids and I remember playing outside the neighbors playing football and The local radio rock radio station was on and they were playing purple haze by jimmy hendrix And for whatever reason When the guitar riff started and I remember Having feelings and being moved in such a way That I had never experienced before and I wanted a lot more of that and that radio couldn't go Any louder and of course following that because I that had led me to wanting to play the guitar And wanting to recreate those sounds and the feelings that I had Inside and and the feelings There was some that I didn't know what they were because they were more of sexual tones that were sort of brought out in those moments But I also felt invincible. I felt immortal I felt myself becoming larger from enveloping those colors and tones That Basically the rest of my life was was written in that in that moment What I love about all of these anecdotes and the anecdotes in the the book as well is just the powerful impact of listening and Johnny often in our growing the business over the last 15 years Uses a lot of music metaphors around you're not hearing it. You're not listening properly And I'm really curious to unpack what you both have learned from musicians and listening Especially when it comes to being innovative in business because that's such a powerful skill that I think is so underappreciated And underdeveloped in a lot of members in our audience we are in an era right now where I think there's a lot of broadcasting and not enough receiving And It tends to sort of mask in many ways the critical importance of just paying attention and As an entrepreneur I think I always thought as a musician because I am a musician by training and When you're playing music and especially if you play jazz When you get lost in the core changes as they say, what do you do? You just sort of like hang back and just stop You pay attention You know, you almost recalibrate where you are And in my entrepreneurial journey there were many times When I did find myself down the path where I did get lost And I think it was that instinct of okay Let me just pause for a minute Pay attention to what's happening around me and I mean really pay attention And and then start jamming again And in many ways, I think we're We're taught the other way around And many of us tend to talk our way out of deals We tend to talk our way out of jobs so knowing When to talk when to lead But also when you just hang back and pay attention Either to the conversation you're having to the person that's talking Or to the situation that's at hand Is of critical nature and in the book We talk about Miles Davis and how He literally did play notes as if they cost a whole lot of money And he believed that the silence is even more important than the actual notes themselves So for me it's always been What are you not saying as much as what Are you saying or what's not being stated as much as what is stated that that counts Pan is perhaps you know this story with Miles It's with herbie hand cock when he had first joined the group And herbie was just very excited to be performing At a level with these people that he had looked up to and thought were the pinnacle of performing And I guess there was a maybe you know the story better But there was a live performance and herbie had played some wrong notes and he freaks out And He was so worried about what miles was going to say afterwards and what would the repercussions of this because of course miles had Was known as a hardcore Musician and guy when it came to those performances and herbie didn't really notice anything that was going on And except that the some of the tones that miles was playing had shifted and changed and after the gig Herbie was very nervous waiting to get chewed out and nothing ever came of it and I Herbie wanted to know perhaps maybe miles didn't catch it and said something just to see and Miles basically just said well, you didn't hear me change the whole Key of that section because of the notes that you played He said and it was basically you need to start listening The thing about listening for me is I come out of a design background first, I mean I play music too, but um When we were starting to Work on the ideas from this book like I I just sort of see the parallels between the creative acts of design and and music and um You know in in design we talk about observation as like the beginning of inspiration And and listening is the same you know like in in the book we talk about There's a uh antidote about Bjork sitting in in Reykjavik growing up in Reykjavik and the the sounds from the harbor You know to to most people who charge noise pollution right like The seagulls the boats the horns the whole thing for her that's music right and I mean she she I she literally actually took those sounds and Composed the beginning of a song um with those sounds right sounds like a random noise until it turns into harmonies But there's so much around us to be inspired by if you if you can do what pano said and and stop You start to you just naturally start to notice opportunities Right um or notice things that are different that cause you to think something new And I think the key to most Creativity new new ideas innovation happens with that simple act Which to upon us this point we live in a society that doesn't encourage it You know, it's a constant feat of information to us. I mean When you hear people say they're behind on their netflix, you know, there's a problem, you know Right From our work that we've done here at the art of charm over the years One of the biggest complaints that most of the guys have is I run out of things to say or I'm always so quiet in a conversation and it drives me nuts I want to be vocal well all the answers And all everything that you need to say is in the other person If you just take a moment to listen to what they have to say You always have something to say you'll always be able to contribute and what to what we're all saying here is We don't spend enough time Stopping and and listening to what's going on and and Bjork is a great example She was able to use those sounds to create some of the Most beautiful songs. Well in another way to think about it is sort of we're all biased towards action And even as an entrepreneur you are conditioned to think that It's all about what you do But it's often what you decide not to do That actually determines your fate So it's another way to look at this idea of of playing and silence of listening and talking Of of doing or not doing it's The space that's many times determines Where the opportunity is more so Than the other areas that you're so busy filling If you will and I had to learn this Lesson time and again as an entrepreneur whether it was The earlier thing that I said to you before of you know, yes, you can talk your way out of a deal you already had and it happened to me But And then also Sometimes you're so hell bent On what you think your company is doing That you don't pay attention To what your customers are saying you should be doing so that's how we've been Sort of using this concept of listening as Perhaps the most integral part to innovation to entrepreneurialism and ultimately For me to all all creation I really enjoyed that point because Yes, we're thinking about innovation from the teams that we're on and the company that we're leading But that innovation is also spurred by our customers our clients our audience and the feedback that they're giving us Hey, this is working. This isn't working. This is what I wanted. This is what I need And if we are to your point exactly hell bent on proving our point winning that argument having the most facts data accolades We're missing that feedback loop that generates the innovation that we're all after again We're conditioned to look at customers As sort of this passively receptive audience to our creation But every good musician knows that in every show that you go That audience is a unique audience in that unique moment of time and they're ultimately Co-creating with you that experience that you're both sharing It's not about you creating an experience and they're passively just receiving it That moment in time is generated by both audience and creator And I've always believed that business is the same way your customers, especially in a post industrial era in a digital era Your customer is every bit As much of a co-creator of the product that you're putting out there As as you are as the inventor Um, so again for us it goes back to these musical concepts that we're articulating in two beats ahead about This musician instinct that they have for listening for collaborating for co-creating That we believe is so applicable to to innovation and and certainly these are concepts that we've experienced firsthand in our journeys I'd love to unpack the collaboration Angle a bit more. I feel that Uh listening is certainly a component of that Much of the music that I think of that is timeless that is You know transcending of genres is when You have these completely different perspectives and musicians and styles coming together and collaborating to make something so unique That as we spoke about earlier just like reaches inside of us and like makes us stop Business is the same way like you need that level of collaboration at a team to really Make something impactful And you guys working together on this book. We're collaborating. So I'm sure there's a lot of lessons to impact there as well How do you approach collaboration? Apart from just the listening angle. I think one of the most interesting things we learned um as we talked to more musicians and entrepreneurs and writing the book is that collaboration was uh a very active choice by And part of the musicians to pursue other people that they felt were more talented or Um at least equally talented and they felt like they could have respect and trust in You know, and I felt like that was such an important idea because I I see um In education for example, there's a lot of push for project-based learning Which I think is a really great idea. I mean I work in a business. It's all about project-based. I mean, you're working with different people all the time, right? So I think it's a great idea But but what I what I've realized over time is like the emphasis on project-based learning in schools isn't enough because There's a missing element there of this desire to work together This pursuit of each other's talent this belief of one another's creativity It's just like random people just thrown together and especially if you're random teenagers throwing together You know how difficult it is to even get them to talk to each other let alone work together um, but I would I would but it carries on into adulthood. I was I was speaking once um Had a university and I you know, I said something about collaboration and in the q&a at the end Someone said uh, just raise their hand. It's like but what if you don't like your teammates, you know, I was like Like Yeah, it's a very fair question. So um, I think that's for for um I guess the biggest surprise for me then was like thinking about something like Beyonce who in her own right, you know, we know is a giant of talent Her her creative pursuit is like to choose people that are amazing at the thing that they do like she chose like She wanted to do a song with jack white because he's an amazing guitarist, right? or or um she wanted to work with um It was a Milo x would remix her music Put it up on Spotify and YouTube the record label kept taking it down because breaking copyright But she loved what he was doing so much that she asked him to go on tour with him um For her was all about just finding that great creative partner and so It really changed my even my own thinking about how to How to work with other people like at least, you know, even if you do get in that situation when you're randomly put together Trying to figure out what it is about them that you find inspiring or different Or exciting and then letting that be the thing that draws you together, right? it's it's a very um To me an exciting way to reframe what collaboration is Because it makes it a pursuit of other and a pursuit of something bigger Um versus I think what seems to be scary in this if you're raised in that high school model Just random putting people together to try stuff today at lunch I was talking with my twin daughters who are seven and as you know Seven-year-olds have a habit of asking questions about everything And sometimes the simplest things you just never stop to think about but We were having a discussion and we started talking about The new Pixar movie soul, which is all about jazz. Yeah, and um We started talking about Pixar and I used the word. Oh, they're they're a company And they said what's a company? And I had to stop and think about it for a minute How do you explain to seven seven-year-old? But then you say well A company is a group of people that come together just like we are here around the table to create something. So if me and mom Collaborate to create dinner. Well, I guess you can call us a company of sorts that produces the dinner um But What struck me as we were both writing the book But also reflecting on the journey that michael and I have had as collaborators in multiple projects Is that We're so conditioned to think of groups in business or companies And the way that you go about curating if you will who you hire Based on skills And you spend a lot of time evaluating people's skills Maybe they're the personality, but at the end of the day The magic sauce of anything is just this intuitive chemistry you have with somebody where actually It's almost as if the skill is less important to that intuitive chemistry And what we found about the way that most musicians collaborate is that first and foremost It starts with that instinctive connection that you have with somebody and Had michael and I when we first met We said well, we have an intention of writing a book together or designing a class or a major Or starting an initiative about identifying rights owners in the music business or any of the stuff that we've done together We would have probably been completely turned off from each other and never Had anything to do with each other after that initial meeting But it was this intuitive connection that we have that led us And if neither of us have written the book before so clearly we did not select each other Around our skill set, right? We just had an innate trust that the two of us would produce something interesting. We didn't know what it was but I think as a musician I thought I can rip with this guy. I don't know where it's going to take us. I don't know what's going to happen but We're approaching life and the world and business and everything else Both simultaneously from a very similar point of view, but also from a very different point of view. So That intuitively I think told us we can create something cool together And there's a quote in the book from t-bone brunette who's a very famous music producer And is this something along the line? I don't care who's playing what I just I just I I don't care what you're playing. I care who's playing it And I love that quote because it's not so much. Well, I need a bass player I need a guitarist. I need a drummer. I need this. I need that is more What are you bringing to the set that's going to make it interesting? So first and foremost, I care about who you are Rather than what you are And and I think this is a discussion that we're not having enough in the business world about how you bring teams together and certainly anybody who started company knows that your co-founders are usually not people that you sort of consciously select as Well, you are this and I'm that so let's make a company together It's often just this intuitive connection that you have with somebody who you go about hey Maybe we can do something fun together How do you create that intuition in team members who maybe haven't worked together before or are placed there in a Circumstance just based on their skills. I ran the company that I founded sonic bids We were always especially in the early days as companies grow you do lose that Um, and I used to have a mentor who started a company called ricodesk Who said to me, you know, the company's kind of stopped being fun after we we we could no longer share two pizzas So I don't know what's that like depending on how much you eat is like eight or ten people, right? But those initial teams are so critical to the success of any business and I think in the in the History of any company those early teams tend to be Long forgotten like most people they'll tell you who the founder is but they have no idea who The second and third than fifth person actually are and the second person is often the most critical person in in the creation of something um, but they're they're they're often confined to uh, you know some asterisks somewhere if if that but For us it was all about this shared interest and because I guess it was easy to find that because sonic bids was in the music space so music acted as this binding agent That no matter what walk of life you were Uh from no matter what passport you carried No matter what your skill set quote unquote was whether you were an engineer or You know salesperson or whatever I think that commonality Had a reassured everybody that You know we vibe to use a music term And in the early days that made all the difference that because vibe for me is another way of saying I trust you Because there's something that connects us there that's beyond What's ever on a piece of paper or a resume or a linkedin profile? It's something that cannot actually be captured in any of these things. It's only something that you feel when you share Either a room Or maybe I guess a zoom With somebody nowadays. I I love it. It's and for AJ and I we've been doing the art of charm for the last 15 years And though we're quite different in many aspects of our life. We're always able to figure out a way To continue working together because the mission that we sent out on in the very beginning had never changed Now if either of us Diverted from what this was about Then we wouldn't be able to work together and much like a lot of musicians You have an idea of what you want to do and what you want to create together and everyone starts to go for it Then if anyone deviates, let's say they choose. I'm going to chase the money now rather than the creative vision that we had for each other Well, you have deviated from that path chasing the money comparatively to chasing the innovation or the the mission that you sent out to do are two completely different trajectories that operate completely different and so For certain that to have that vision aligned And agreed upon and then the steps that we're going to take to get there Needs to be set up so those collaborations can maintain In fact, they should those collaborations should feed each other to where somebody's not feeling it The other person is able to carry it and pick it up till the other person finds their way back And I know for AJ and our In our lives and our business with the art of charm There certainly wasn't always days that we could share two pizzas either But it was the the vision that allowed us to to continue on and pick each other up when Either of us had faltered or felt defeated or or just a bit burned out And that's what made Our podcast successful and and allowed us within the that construct to be able to grow as well And and you know john as you're talking. I mean We've never met you guys before But when you just said, okay, we've been in business together for such a long time I'm not surprised because I think the four of us are having this conversation and I think You two know that michael and I have an intuitive connection And I know just seeing you guys interact with each other That you have that intuitive connection and another thing that Somebody that I I met early on in my business career told me Is don't confuse invention with intention And um there's a guy called bill warner who founded a company called avid and I never forgot that because I think we often confuse sort of The product that we're putting out with the reason and the intention and the purpose that we have with what we're trying to create And um, you you get too caught up sometimes in in that Whereas I think with michael and and and and may Again, we never sought out to do anything together. It's just one thing led to another led to another and it was that innate trust that we had um, and the curiosity that we have Uh in who each other is that that has kind of led us to where where we are Yeah, I think that's such a Um difficult thing to learn, you know, um Another person in a book is spencer tweedy. He's he's the son of jeff tweedy the um founder of wilco and um Spencers um A really cool guy I have to say I mean he he's He's a great drummer. He's played with norah jones and mavis staples, you know He's he's on all his prom dad's promotions right now because wilco can't get together so He's playing on his dad's solo album, but but he um He said something to us that I mean he's written a book now. He's got some records out. He's started a microphone cable business And we're trying to figure out like what is the what is the red thread across all these things and he said well I kind of learned I learned from my dad that the important thing about a songwriting process is Literally the process it's like if if you If you're willing to embrace the process enjoy and enjoy it for what it is You'll continue to be motivated and won't be distracted by whatever artifact comes from it you know and um It sounds kind of intuitive. I think for like especially for someone who's making a living making records and making books but it really is about that idea of of enjoying What you're learning through your curiosity is or enjoying the practice of your craft You know and then good things come from it I mean ponies is right like if we had met and like hey, let's let's set five goals together for the next five years I mean no way No way would that ever worked You know and think about that for anyone you've ever fell in love with I mean that like The first thing you don't like you like finds one really attractive. You don't start making life plans for your children's college You know in your retirement So, you know, it's it's um, but I think in in business we often do get confused by those things, you know and we and we we put our eyes on the wrong prize in fact when it really is this idea of shared purpose leads to great things versus trying to focus on the artifact that um Can be a distraction actually Johnny and I in 50 years of business. We've been on a lot of unsuccessful collaborations, we've had seven business partners over the years and part of their inability to collaborate is why they're no longer here And I feel that in collaboration. There's always a part of you that gets sacrificed for the collaboration And Johnny likes to say, you know, don't bring that tired riff back into the meeting We've heard it. We said no, it's not working rework it But you know, many of us who are struggling in in collaborations, especially in a school setting As you said where we don't have that intuition or that shared purpose yet We get so hung up on Us personally showcasing our talents or getting our ideas to come to fruition or being that leader in the group And we're unwilling to make that sacrifice for the collaboration What have you guys learned from musicians and how they approach collaborations when they know that riffs are going to be cut Lyrics are going to not make it in there that they thought when they were writing or when they were playing Were that thing were that spark? Yeah, that ego can gets in a way so easily big time if you believe if you believe enough in the pursuit together Then you can you can actually go overcome these things like I had to have a friend once he's actually in the book um as well I said a friend once as if he's no longer around he is around We used to work together. We no longer we he lives in a different city now, but um He he said in his collaborations, he never compromised And I was like that sounds impossible like what do you mean? And when he impacted for me, I thought it was very interesting. He's like well It was in my mind if either party has to compromise Then neither of you are going to be happy. So if you ever get to a point where either of you are Unhappy with what the other one is doing and you feel like you have to give in The best thing to do is both set your ego aside and try for a new idea Because eventually you'll both get to an idea that neither of you are compromising about and you both feel great about You know, it was one of those the discussions that aj and I were having before we got on with you guys And what we wanted to discuss and how we wanted to frame everything today and The that the section in the book about collaborating I was wanting to see and I now I have already known what what I had felt my musical background has I have brought into the company with me and I know what those aspects are and that I That you guys illustrated the collaborative part in a way and I was like, oh, I never I never saw that aspect of it and For myself and aj was talking about the riff idea I mean so many rehearsal rooms where everyone's bringing in these different ideas and what's getting cut and what's getting added and for myself The the riff never mattered Or the lyric never mattered If the end result was was was better So if everyone's riffs go in everyone's lyrics go in and we're looking for the best the best bits I had never gotten And I think this was just through that process where I had never gotten beat up or never felt I'm so mad at these guys. That was it. I can't believe they didn't they didn't use this bit Because for me, I was always happy that At the end we've all agreed that the song works The the song is strong and it is strong because of all of our efforts and aj knows Coming into and to meetings. I have viewed meetings in that the same setup For the last 15 years because that's what I'm so accustomed to and comfortable working in that And as aj mentioned, we certainly have guys who have come through and it's like well, listen. It's my way or the highway Well, you see there's only four of us on this call right now Yeah, and this you know this concept of trusting That your collaborator is bringing something to the partnership The the the collaboration that is additive Not because of what they do necessarily but because of who they are And the way that that's expressed Is again something that we've seen in talking with musicians time and again like um You know one of the examples we talk about in the book is is ferrell and actually how he successfully collaborated with so many people including brands like adidas and You know, this is a situation where there's a successful partnership there because There's an inherent trust between company and artist That even though the artist is not a classically trained designer Apparel uh designer shoe manufacturer. That's not what they bring He is not a supplier to adidas, right? That's not what you're that you don't bring ferrell in for a collaboration Because of his amazing ability to manufacture foam soles, right? That's not what you're hiring this person for So if all you see shoe manufacturing As it's basically a bunch of components that come together to create something then You sure miss the whole idea of bringing in a ferrell and I think when you hire people in companies Or when companies acquire smaller companies, they often make that mistake they They don't see The people for who they are and what their talents and how they can be additive They're just trying to fit them within a very particular sort of frame Um, and it doesn't work It just doesn't work because you're leaving out the very uniqueness of that person um And what they bring to it and it's something that I think you see throughout the book this idea that successful creative collaborations are not Because of the very specific very well defined skill um, it's about What the other person brings to the collaboration that That's michael was saying actually is uncompromising because everybody is individual as an individual And it's that individuality That they bring that merges and becomes part of a braider hole That is what makes a hole so cool That is not a bunch of people who compromise their own individuality is a bunch of people who brought their individuality and one plus one equals 10 precisely because Of how they come together and their respect that they have about each other's difference rather than each other's commonality and in your experience of assembling teams And then joining teams that you necessarily didn't pick From the start right because in entrepreneurship when you're starting your own thing Your your hand picking the team and then when you move to a corporate setting you didn't get to pick the talent But you're still leading the team Is there a difference to how you approach collaboration in that or identify How to bring that individuality out in those team members to get the best out of that collaboration well, i'll tell you my experience and i'm i'm sure michael can share his but um After I I I sold My company and I went to berkeley I went from a company of about a hundred people to an organization of 2000 plus people and The areas that I lead at berkeley are actually all over the All over the world A campus in abu dhabi a campus in valencia spain in new york city and I also inherited a number of of of um of people that Were kind of cobbled together to create a new area of berkeley that we call global global strategy and innovation and I have spent and spend still a lot of time trying to understand people's individuality rather than How they fit into my grand plan? So it's almost like you're reversing the process and my plan is developed Out of their individualities Rather than me trying to shoehorn them into a grand plan that I prefabbed and brought to and brought to the table because then you're missing the Very strength of all the people that you have working with you um so Honestly, it's been a process and it still is I there are people that are just Not that easily knowable or sometimes they don't know their own strengths and I think your job Is to help them figure out Where they can be the strongest and how they can express themselves in a different plateau so Or a different platform, I should say um So that's been sort of my approach and it's been an adjustment for me going from a company that I created To an organization that is several times bigger That's a 75 year old institution and working with people that Didn't know me at all Up until I became their their manager there's a A guy in our book named steve stout who he wrote a book called the tanning of america he's basically This genius businessman that connected hip-hop culture with lifestyle culture and has been one of the major deal makers for a lot of these artists to get um outside of their music into other kinds of businesses, you know But in his consultancy He talks about this idea of majors and minors. He's like your major is your role Like your job title But your minor is your passion And he's an incident in a business. I want to know everybody's major and minor because when we build teams Your role may not matter You know um What could matter would be your passion so He's primarily um You know a marketing organization. So he's like His business is like technologists storytellers and creatives Because but in those three main categories of employees, they could have passion around music. They could have passion around sports. They could have passion around uh Food or luxury or whatever it is and so You know what even though they're in the technology team, they might be a software coder If they have a deep love for luxury brands, I want them on the project You know whether it has anything to do with software or not Because they're going to bring that energy that knowledge um to whatever we're doing and I think it's a lot like what you're talking about panos. It's like you you want to know those individuals and their passions because In at the end of the day, none of us are motivated by our job title Right. I mean job titles don't really even mean anything if you like try to actually deconstruct them um We're motivated by the things that Make us enjoy life, right? And so if you can figure out how to unlock that It on teams for your job. I mean That's great and that feels great. You know now that we have the the collaboration We got we got the pressure cooker of a bunch of guys putting something together We gotta we gotta eke something out and in the book you guys talked about putting your putting a demo together And for I want to make this quick connection Because when facebook came out or sonic bids or any of the technology that we're using We got a beta version. We we saw the first version and we all liked it and so they decided hey Let's develop it. So what could you tell us? About that section and what you guys had gotten out of that It's the bravery of doing even when you don't know what you're doing and The truth is You just don't know what you're doing even when you think you do and I feel The the the most brave thing that you can do is just dare to take that first step And almost trusting that number one it's going to turn out different than you had envisioned it in your head But that is to michael's point earlier It is the most important part of beginning a process That will lead you somewhere interesting, but you have no idea what that interesting is And We I have another great quote from an interview that we have with Justin Timberlake and he says, you know Learn how to dare to suck And it it it takes Bravery and courage To not be afraid to suck, but it's in that Moment If you will Where the sucking can turn into something truly amazing and different Um, so for me, that's The whole concept behind demoing if you're so focused on the polished product And if you so over legislate and over design what that Polish product ought to be I think you miss All the opportunity that may exist by coming up with something totally different than you intended to begin with and many a great song and a great product a great company Heck a great marriage are often byproducts of of just Being comfortable with the fact that you're going to end up somewhere that you had absolutely no idea you would be when you started out um, and I think it gives you confidence actually that Even when you are making what you would think are mistakes. They're just parts of that process, right and for anybody who plays an instrument you know I don't know about you AJ, but Johnny you do and Michael you do, uh I remember the first time that I picked up the guitar I went to the store and I bought a An imitation Fender Stratocaster that looked like Clapton's Blackie, you know And I plugged it in and The edge also played a similar guitar and I had seen you two love it red rocks And I thought I was gonna pick up this concert. Yeah, and I thought I was gonna pick up the guitar and sound Like the edge or or or clap or Clapton. I mean, I guess we're starting with Leila and we're finishing with Leila And I played that note and it was so Different that what was in my spirit in my heart in my head in And it was both exhilarating and utterly crushing At the same time because it sucked And my finger hurt and it it it didn't it didn't feel or sound like anything Then what I thought the experience would be watching The edge play Gloria or Clapton play Leila Uh, I don't know any other guitar player playing any other song named after a woman And but it was that first note that sucked That ended up being the first step that I took to the life that I have today, right? Um and to me that's that's the bravery around demoing. It's just Doing and not being afraid to get it wrong. One of my favorite stories that An examples of that is Is the Ramones and you have these four guys who really didn't have much of a shot at really doing anything else And it was the new new york in the 70s the places just Decomposing as they sat there and Had this idea that we're going to put a band together and we're going to try to make something happen and You see Film of them at cbgb's like their third show where they all started the wrong song and then they get on a fist fight on stage and but yet fast forward We have now have a band Who took their limited skills? Crafted songs that fit within the skills that they had And not only made a name for themselves, but have inspired There's probably not a kid who picks up a guitar Who doesn't go through the Ramones path as they start to learn how these things come together And realize that oh the three chords I have learned that hurt my fingers That are are killing me and are bumming me out because I only know three Well, that's all it takes for me to write an album and show three other guys how to play these these three chords In a rudimentary drum beat and we are off to the races And then to take what you've put together in that rehearsal room That painstakingly get on stage and then you're going to go all start the wrong song and get a fist fight on stage Knowing we're on a path to success Pretty brave And one more question before before we wrap and we love asking Everyone of our guests what their x factor is And that's either a skill set or a mindset that has allowed you to reach your full potential in life Michael anything come to mind for your x factor, you know one one thing I've a mentor taught me In the last couple years was this idea of anytime that I feel defensive about something to switch that feeling of defensiveness to curiosity And uh, man, that that has been life changing for me It's opened me up to so many things that I think normally I would have shied away from or conversations. I wouldn't have Um or even heated moments. So that would be mine beautiful realization You know, I'm gonna give an answer that probably would have not given even a year ago, but I would say it's sort of this combination of both confidence and humility um Confidence because it's about what we were talking earlier, right like the Daring to act even when you just don't know But then the humility to learn when What you didn't know ends up being something that maybe I don't know you should have known or Or or uh, or you're learning from right Because if you don't have that humility, you're just not going to learn from the inevitable Um wrong notes that you're playing um, so for me, it's been this this duality that I'm not afraid to try Which in and of itself takes an act of courage But then if it doesn't it's not accompanied by The humility that it takes to learn Then I just don't feel you make forward progress you remain stagnant either in just playing those three chords if you will And you're just writing the same song over and over again um Or in never playing or learning how to play one chord And therefore there is no second or third. So there is no song and there is no album Uh, it's really no rock star. Uh, so that yeah, that's that's been on on my end Thank you both so much for joining us and writing such an enjoyable and insightful book on innovation and music two beats ahead And have a wonderful day. Thanks for having us. Thank you guys