 I'm an artist director of Safe Place Festival, which is a festival for relaxed performances. I'm very excited because usually I do this with my partner, and now I'm doing it by myself. So maybe it will take five minutes, maybe 30 minutes, I don't know. We'll just, you know, go with me. But at the end of the session I want to hear your questions if you have any, or maybe have a discussion, and mainly hear about inclusion in your countries. It really intrigues me. Okay, so, sorry. So the first part is, why does the world need relaxed performances, and what made us do this, and who is our audience, is Eyal. He's five years old and he's autistic. Every time his parents took him to see a children's show, they had to leave. Mainly because of his behavior, which didn't suit the society and the rules. But last week, for the first time in his life, he enjoyed a full theatre show that suited to Eyal. You probably know that due to their unique needs and through no fault of their own, children on the autistic spectrum are left out of cultural activities that for most children are trivial and routine. Children on the spectrum may feel anxiety, sensory or emotional overload for a variety of reasons that we take for granted. Be it the loud volume or the sound in a show, frequent lighting changes, or simply a large audience. All those may trigger reactions that often times are constructed as noisy, destructive or violent, and that's why many families just pass this joyride. In Israel 2019, there are approximately 3,000 children on the autistic spectrum talking about children that are diagnosed. About 300,000 are in special education, and more close to our matter, why are we doing this? Every year about 15 new TYA productions are produced. Now, I have a question. How many of those shows do you think are suitable for children on the autistic spectrum and other cognitive disabilities? What do you think? Five. Two. Five. Five. Two. Fifty. Five. Tiki? One. One. One. Why one? Anyone else? Fifty. Okay. Interesting, Danny, because the answer is zero. Okay. Sorry. That's the reality. But I'm not here to make you sad. Yn 2018, we started our first safe place festival. We're already in part two. So, what is a relaxed performance festival? I think I skipped, wait, I'll go to this one. So, safe place is a festival, it's a fully inclusive theatre festival where any behavior is okay, not judged, and any reaction is acceptable. This means children can come in and out of a show as they want, walk freely in the venue and make noises or any physical gestures as they need. All performances have been adapted and different elements that may cause an overload have been removed. I'll get deeper into that in the upcoming minutes. So, I'm going to go back to this, how it all began actually. So, safe place was the first time that this type of festival ever took place in Israel. Today, it is the only annual festival in the world, I think. Unless anyone knows anything I don't know, which is interesting. So, yes, it's the only festival in the world right now. I forgot to say, we're live streaming, hello, and speak louder. Hi, all, if you're watching, I'm my only friend that is watching, hi. Bo, bye, it's the only festival in the world, blah blah blah. Yes, dedicated to theatre shows and for children on the autistic spectrum and other neurodivergent differences. My partner, O, I'm not doing this alone, thankfully, and the co-founder could not be here because in Israel, the school year starts on September 1st, so she had to be with her son, who is autistic. My daughter also started a new kindergarten, but she's not autistic, so I'm here. I would like to indicate before I go further that our initiative is under, it's been adopted by the Association for Children at Risk for Autism, Treatment and Research Centre, and it provides us in our initiative a strategic and professional guidance and support through its communication therapists, occupation therapists, and psychologists, all of whom are experts in autism. We had a dream, we went to New York, we took part in the Big Umbrella Festival, and we studied there in the professional development. We came back to Israel, and after three months our festival was born, and all the tickets were sold out within a week for some shows within a day. So before I go even deeper, I just want to give you an introduction of the first festival, which happened August 2018. I need to go to the YouTube. Wait. The first festival was in the Caribbean Museum. It's difficult to find a place that suits you, because it's so big. Here you don't have a place that doesn't suit you. You feel that you've reached the right place to understand you. So what do I do? What's my work? As part of my fascinating job as our project's artistic director, I get to meet theatre artists. Is anyone here from the technical team, maybe, to help me with this browning? Can you call someone? So I get to meet theatre artists, and select shows that may be adapted and modified into relaxed performances. Now, in Israel, like in most countries? Yeah, thanks. You should stay here. I can't see your hands. No, it's English. I think I'm used to Mac. Does anyone know? In Israel, like in most countries, there isn't a show that is made from scratch for this kind of audience. So what I do is I go through the year and watch shows, and I pick a show that can be adapted, that has a natural way towards this audience anyway. So the adaptations can be as minor as I can make them. I work separately with each production and artists, and the main part is making it every show as sensory as possible. So naturally, the adaptation doesn't cover the content of the show alone. It manifests itself as an all-encompassing accessibility framework that includes pre-show, inductory materials for the families and the children. I will show you about that later on. A crew of volunteers are present during the shows. A quiet space the children may use if they experience some form of sensory or emotional overload. It means that outside every venue, whatever the venue is, so outside there will be a quiet space. It is a calm, tolerant space that one may come in or out of throughout the show, all according to the child's needs. We do our best to select a venue that may transform itself to become relaxed, starting with clear signs at every corner. A team of volunteers... We cannot have this festival without volunteers. They are like the ground base of it. A team of... Sorry, I lost my... That they are accompanying the families and the children. And they are... Sorry, in any way. After silencing the hand dryers in the toilets as to prevent the triggering of any fears. The field of relaxed performances around the world today is still in its infancy, but one may detect a rising interest and openness to the matter. These days more and more theatre and artists and community centres and more realize that to include everyone, they must also make room for cognitive accessibility. Now, when we create a relaxed space that factors all this in, we have a fantastic opportunity to give these children those moments of pure joy that only happen in the theatre. The apparent effect on children who watch a show for the first time and may behave how they like without judgment, layers or social criticism is an exciting experience, not for them, but for their families who can finally breathe and who can enjoy such an outing and enjoy it together. So one of the principles that lead me is finding the best and most respectful performances in Israel and most professional. This is something I will not compromise or I will not settle for anything less. For example, I have, you know, every artistic director has its vision and his way. Like commercial shows, it's not really my thing, so I wouldn't adapt a commercial show. It should be super amazing or unique in order for me to start working with them. But I can give you an example that in New York and Broadway they have relaxed performances for musicals like The Lion King, for example. It's an audience for like 700 people. But yeah, you can have a show for five children. You can have a show for 700. It's all about the approach, I guess. And in our festival we try to give all the options. So I was talking about some of the things that help us through the shows like these are accessories that we put outside of every show. It's stress balls, it's those headphones, the soundproof headphones that we provide everyone who needs it. This is our special table. So when you come to our festival, it doesn't matter where we are because we don't have our venue yet. The first festival was in the Museum of Tel Aviv. The second festival, which was last week right away, was in the Cinematic of Tel Aviv. Now they are all huge institutes that are trying to fit us in and it's August and most of everyone is on vacation and there's no school. So inside all of that we need to make our space in all this hectic place. So the families that purchase the tickets to the shows, we don't go to the cashier of the Cinematic. We have our table with all our signs and volunteers, of course. So what you can see here, and I will pass it to your live, every show has a social story. Does anyone... Is there someone here that doesn't know what is a social story? So Christian, no it's much easier for me. It's a visual information, sort of a pamphlet and a toolkit that supplies the background of the entire show. And it's listing all the scenes, a visual and a literal breakdown of the characters, set and props in the show. This way the children can prepare in advance with their families. And it also lowers the level of fear and uncertainty, elements that might trigger anxieties and overloads with these special children. By the way, it's suitable for all the kids, okay? You don't have to be autistic, but you know. So we have like a general social story, I will pass it. These are icons that someone, we hire a professional to make this story. So this is a general social story of what happens when I come to the theatre. So I might see many people, I'll sit next to my guardian and I will try to wait with the patient through the show. I can check my social story, what will happen. I can look, I can listen and I will talk quietly. If I need help, I can point to those icons and maybe ask for help. In the venue there are nice volunteers that don't help. So you can pass it along. This is a social story for a show. As I said, every show that we adapt gets its own social story. So this is just the beginning and a breakdown of the scene. You have to be very specific with the end, autistic children. I would say before, just to know the breakdown and to know what's going on and when is it going to end. So you need to be very, very specific. This year we added some stickers to our table. So there's the red sticker which says, I prefer not to be approached. I think I can wear it every day. There's the green sticker that says, I can talk but I'm not always able to lead a conversation. And there's the photograph because a lot of families don't want to keep it private and don't take pictures of our children and don't post it on Facebook. So it really helped us this year because we document everything. So this is our fight space. So this year we decided to have tents and we put them all around the cinematech. It does look ugly. I know the aesthetics is not amazing. I didn't want it to look like a campaign. So we just added those fabrics. But inside you have a lot of sensory toys for the children and even costumes. So a lot of children just put on themselves hats and costumes and big pillows like this. So every time a child feels like maybe he's too tired or it's too much or he's going to have a meltdown, just go outside and relax. I'm just going to show you a few of the shows we had this year in our program. Some were specifically tailored for the festival and some of the rest of the shows are amazing shows that were adapted. And now they have their own version as a relaxed performing. So this was tailored for the festival. It's just a bubble workshop for the whole family. I think that was like the greatest success. So Lee, she's an actor. She did the whole workshop as a character. But I think it was so popular because again it was an activity for the whole family which is something they early experienced. This was just a storytelling for the young ones. We limit the amount of audience in every activity. So we limited here the amount for 15 people. This is one of the shows. Now all the regular shows, the theatre shows, they were in the Cinematheque venue which is on a daily basis, it's cinema. So you have those chairs and there is a stage. The performances were on the stage. But the children, two amazing things happened because in our first festival all the shows were in this open big room and there were no chairs and they could go around and run and do whatever. And because we only had this this year, so most of the children were really concentrated and they were just sitting for 45 minutes. That was amazing. The rest of the children and the families were like, again we limited the amount of audience. So we limited to 60. This venue is suitable for 150 if I'm not mistaken. So it feels empty and they spread it all around the chairs which is great because they can feel comfortable to go and to sit wherever they want. But you can see some kids moving closer a room. And then another room. And then at the end they were just in the front row in front of the show. It's a great deal. So this is a sweet child holding a social story. It gives a lot of confidence to know what's happening next. Another special activity we had is a one-on-one sensory clowning. So it was with this sweet clown. So every it was open for one child and a caretaker and they had 10 minutes of activity. You didn't have to pay for this. We just gave it to the family. You just have to register in front. And there's a timer working for 10 minutes. And they also have a social story for that too. But the only difference in this activity is that they can choose which activity from the social story they want. And again this was tailored especially for the festival. There was a long queue and everyone really liked it. That's another show. That was our poster. Oh, I missed... Oh, no, I did. Okay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yes. I'm in my third part of the lecture. So in this last part I want to tell you about the collaborations that we made this year. Because what happened after the first festival, it was like a dam was breached. And we got so many call-outs and parents writing us, can you please come to the north? Can you please come to the... Well, you don't see please so much in Israel. Come to the north, come to the south. We want it in our village. We want it in our city. And we had to rethink it from the beginning. And then it started not to only be a festival. It just became an initiative. And we started thinking of how can we bring it more to the people. And we are only two women that do it alone. And what can we do? So the first collaboration we did... Sorry, I just got lost in my text. So I'm going to go back and find it. So we now believe that every... No, I will say it by heart. The first collaboration we did is we went to the three largest and most... The three largest theatre festivals in Israel, which are in Haifa, in Hulon and in Jerusalem. And we asked them, would you like to collaborate with us? You just open a slot in your program to a relaxed performance. We will take care of the slot. We will like our festival. We will bring the table. We will bring the tent. We will bring the volunteers. We will help you with the description and all the accurate texts for the PR and for the program. You just need to say yes. And they did. And it was amazing. And again, the demand was crazy because all the shows were just sold out. I know for part of them it's not for the... Maybe it's not... They don't do it for the same reason that we do it. They just... They really need the PR or maybe. But it doesn't matter because from now on, they will always have a slot in their program for relaxed performances. And these are festivals that are existing more than 30 years. So it was great. And I really think that just as it is mandatory by law to provide physical accessibility for people with physical disabilities, so it should be cognitive accessibility. This way we're paving the way to a better and more inclusive future. And we really believe that every festival in the world should do it. Really. And it's really simple. So that was the first collaboration that we did. And the second one in Israel, as part of the yearly education plan, we call it a cultural basket. So it means basically that every educational institute, which means schools and kindergartens, they get to see a variety of cultural shows chosen by the educational staff. And throughout the year, hundreds of thousands of students watch dance shows, theatre performances, literary and musical encounters right at their schools or kindergarten. And often they make their way to the actual theatres. The special education kindergartens also take part in this cultural basket. But it's much more challenging for them to find the appropriate material for the children. So thanks to an exciting collaboration, we started with the Ministry of Education this year. Every show that has been adapted by the Safe Place project goes into a kind of inner inventory from which the teachers can more easily invite shows that have been specifically tailored for the needs of the special education children. Nearing 2020, we've been working on more such collaborations with community centres and public institutions. The demand is enormous, and there's no better feeling than to allow these children this opportunity. The adapted shows now reborn as relaxed performances provide their creators with the chance to showcase their works to new audiences. And just a little note aside, I just want to say that in the world today, there are incredible theatre groups that produce and perform relaxed performances all year round. And they are indeed experts in their field. The artistic director of Eulikart is here. So Eulikart is definitely one of the groups. We were privileged to study with the three of the best groups. So it's Eulikart, and it's from the UK, Sensoriom Theatre from Australia, and Trusty Scythic Company from the USA. I highly recommend following their work. So I invite you to ask me anything you would like to know and also hear about the simplicity of inclusion and how to make it a daily matter and not a project. Also anyone who would like to hear about the workshops that we give and more of our collaborations, please, let's have a beer. This is a dramatic sentence for the end. Thank you very much. Of what age you go up to and whether there's work that you've done or planned to do without the lessons of even adults. So you'd like to go up to the children and whether that would be any different. I think it would, but I think I know nothing about that. No, seriously, because I've been doing TYA for many years and now I'm doing this in the OPA. It's also the field of TYA. Is it about 10 years of the PhD? It really varies because we don't put it into age groups, actually. I'll pass along also our program. It's in Hebrew, of course, but you can see. The age group is, we write like from three and above because a child that is 12 years old can come to show that it suits four years old. But it will suit him great and these are things that happen. So you can pass it along. I forgot to say that also this year in our program, I forgot to say that we also had two things that we tried out this year and it went very well. We put a list of triggers on the description of every show. So like if there's water in the show or soap bubbles, we just put the list of triggers. We give the family the responsibility. They choose, they know their child the best. We had an exciting collaboration with the train theatre. They made a show, a relaxed performance for only five children. It was premiered last week in our festival. This is very, very new in Israel. People are still trying to understand why a show for five children. So we put a lot of energy in just explaining why and the importance of it. It's an issue. I presented it at our festival, Sensori and Quantity, which is beautiful. But I had two mothers ring with 21-year-old boys who developmentally were five or six, and they came. But it's a very different thing that showed because they were all men. Let's agree that it's all complicated in any way and that there's no right answer because there are so many approaches. We just try to make our bets. Can anyone maybe share about inclusion in their country? Yes, Danny? There was an interesting journey in the UK. I'll be a little bit brief. I'm not sure how much it will be. But it started because I think about 2010-2011 when there was a family with an autistic child that went to see a performance in the West End of Wickey. This became a sort of national scandal because the family were asked because their child was making involuntary noises. They were asked by a number of staff if they could kindly leave the tutorial because they were upsetting everyone. And they campaigned and they still campaigned. And as a result of it, we had a conference at the Unicorn Theatre Children in London about autism and theatre. And I think from there, from a lot of... There was already some work going on with relaxed performance. I think the cinema industry in the UK had led the way a bit before theatre. And I remember one contribution at that conference that was a light bulb moment for me which was one of the contributors said, why is it one relaxed performance in mainstream theatres? And the analogy they gave is in the UK in trains you have one quiet coach. And so if you want to be quiet, you go to the quiet coach. No, it doesn't work any better. Just the same. For obvious reasons. But you know, so they said, so why do we go, there's one relaxed performance and 105 uptight performances, if that's your say. And why don't we just say, if it's a problem of the year to be with neurodiverse people, we'll do one performance for you and all the rest will be relaxed. And I thought it was a really interesting provocation. And now my understanding is, although one of our arts centres, Bathsy Arts Centre, has dedicated itself that every performance will be a relaxed performance. I think this is largely because there's a wonderful artist called Jess Tom, some of you might know, who has Tourette and uses her Tourette. I was part of her aesthetic brilliantly. She did an amazing production of Beckett's Not Eye, which was the best thing I've seen for about a decade at Bathsy Arts Centre. And every performance Jess does is relaxed because she wants to create work. Because she couldn't, I mean she was speaking for herself. Because she couldn't be a fit of number of theatre audiences because of making voluntary contributions. I think they are the most progressive in the adult sphere. So it's extraordinary that her influence in that, and there's, I mean I've performed in the works, a couple of shows there, and for me as an artist, I'm absolutely welcome the fact that I now know the next thing I do there will be relaxed performance, every performance, in about five spaces in the building. So it's new, so it'd be really interesting to see how it, but I think it's the first time I've come across that, that's been a co-access policy for me at Bathsy Arts Centre. All Polka was doing these starting relax shows. We invented them. A children's stage invented them. It's been doing it for a long time. So it's come from our world. I know the UK, the leadership of the relaxing approaches, I get a lot of my knowledge from the UK groups of course, and could I ask a question? Sure. The cultural bread basket, I heard about it years ago, and I thought it was absolutely fantastic. And since then, I've heard about the Norwegian rucksack, and the Danish suitcase, sort of, Farrow Island and something like that. And in the UK, we're trying an arts backpack. That's our version. So it's the same shows coming to the Kindergartens and Schools. It's five artistic items a year for primary children across the arts that we will guarantee. Like five healthy things a day keep you well. It's five minimum, five artistic items either in or out of school, every year for every primary child in the UK. But I recently, picking up on your, you've recently tailored it for special education, your cultural bread basket. And I wondered whether the other, like the Norwegian rucksack and the Danish suitcase and the Finnish handbag. And, you know, whether they have thought about this, because we aren't, and I have mentioned it, but it hasn't been listened to. I now feel I can go home and push it a bit more. There's a basket inside the basket? Yes. It's much easier just to reach and to open the second basket and say, oh, this is, it has a stamp of proof that it's adapted and suitable for these kind of audiences. But in a way if you don't mention it, it won't happen. Yeah, of course you, yeah. But we were very, very privileged to have this kind of collaboration and in the Ministry of Education they were just amazing and very, very open. They come to the shows and they see by themselves it's not only like people behind desks they really, they mean shit. And they do it. It's amazing because the main people that are going to profit, like literally profit from it is the artists. Because the shows are there. They're not ours. We don't have commission from the shows. It's theirs. They have a larger larger options for a larger audience. I hope it will anything else, any more questions? Yes. I run a theatre company with two shows and more often we've been asked to do a relaxed performance of shows and some shows clearly are good for it and some shows I kind of feel like they might not be good for it. And I'm interested because you said that you selectively, carefully the shows that you think adapt well I'm wondering what you think that it might be our responsibility for the shows that we have the sense having had experience of it that they're probably not necessarily great as for lack of performances. But it's our responsibility to tell some venues that actually we don't think this show is going to be great for a lack of performance. First of all, not every show can be adapted and become a relaxed performance. Some shows are really, really fast or really, really verbal or too complicated and it's just they can't be adapted. I hope I understood your question correctly. We feel the obligation and the responsibility to most to say yes because we want to be inclusive and want to make sure everyone can get access to our work but I kind of feel like maybe we shouldn't always Can I respond to that? So I've just produced a show and I've just been asked to do a relaxed performance at a festival that's going out because part of their mandate is that every show provides relaxed performances. Where are you from? Sorry, I'm from Canada, from Vancouver and we're in the middle of a big conversation which is great but I'm really clear that the show is completely inappropriate because it's based on World War I racism, bullying and this but lately you can't actually don't know how to do that and not have bonds go up so because I'm not trained in relaxed performances because nobody at the venue that it's going to is trained in relaxed performances I've been very clear that this show is not appropriate and if it's part of a mandate they need to have a conversation before they hire the artists so I think as artists we actually have a responsibility if we believe our show isn't appropriate to be able to explain why and if they have someone who is an expert in this who can actually go show me the video because I want to see it and then I can come back with you and I would totally listen to that because they know way more than I do so I think we do have a responsibility to be mindful and to at least say I don't think it's appropriate but who do we show the work to who can tell us whether it's appropriate we have a thing going on in Vancouver right now around providing performances to people who are deaf or hard of hearing and we have an amazing artist in Vancouver who is deaf and he's educated us all and just because it's non-verbal doesn't mean it's appropriate and so I'm like right okay I have no idea this is not my world you have a different language than I have and so I feel like it's a similar thing that I need to work with people who know way more about this to decide but I'm pretty sure my instincts about the show I'm talking about right now with the performance going on is not necessarily a good show for a relaxed performance we could probably redo it to create a relaxed performance but I don't have the budget to do that I think people feel welcome relaxed will make it relaxed where is that? we should be cool coming up and we've got company at which is a company on building statistical performance for people in the audience so that was a really interesting statement but we say if you have concerns, contact us and we will adapt whatever we find that if people feel welcome a huge issue and it's interesting in Christian from Arena it's a beautiful production that they do for robots on which is about the relationship between a lot of big sounds so many autistic kids come and I was really nervous but because they've been to be made welcome knew that there was big sounds for me honestly this approach it's hard for me to accept it because I really think that we have a lot of responsibility it's like you go to someone who says maybe it's an extreme example someone who says he's a doctor but he only watched on YouTube how to become a doctor so it doesn't make him a doctor of course if he puts the title so the same here I think it needs a lot of research and mainly it needs time to to check on the audience and to make a lot of mistakes this is how you succeed and I made so many mistakes in my life and I make it like on an hourly basis but really it's not just making a TYA show it's different because of the audience so you have like extra responsibility this is my approach I agree with programs in Surin because of that it's not like experts they are working for heat it's not a question I always think when there's a show that has a theme of autism or neurodiversity I was involved in a show I wasn't the maker that was all about autism and from my perspective the work I do I find the whole process so difficult there was an assumption that something that is about a theme will therefore be good for the people affected by that theme in their day to day life and for me it was like a highly verbal show performed by people with autism it was a series of monologs and you know it was sort of people were welcome and that was really good but because the theme was there there was never any thought about thinking about the whole constellation of autism and actually there were really there were simple ways we could have made that way more just engaging and enjoyable but that wasn't seen as a necessary question or practice and when I raised it people became really defensive and I wasn't in a powerful position in that structure so I literally just stopped asking because I was like it just doesn't fit and I'm not going to like you know like roll those in and also some autistic you know a cast member with autism kind of disagreed because that wasn't their experience especially when I was there but really not going to get in this argument but I just think there's always that assumption and from what you said like if your work is about sometimes work can be about and not for and not about it's wonderful when they all come together but I've never seen it done fully meaningfully like a really an example I always think of because it haunts me I hope no one makes a show I'll change it I'll change it oh god it's about dementia and the title of it was like bleak it was like if they might as well have called it like death and then when I decided 10 fight loads of people with dementia to see it I just put my heart because I was like well I've got to tell them about their experience you know who are you like so I don't know I think it's an exceptionally complicated thing to try and do all those things in my mind and on the history of autism it was great the parents went and said I learned more in that hour than any doctor has taught me in 20 years on my child the trigger yeah really and what I found the most surprising about the process was that in order to develop so it's low potential I had to drop every preconception of autism that and how the audience are going to respond anything I do has to be okay to make mistakes in that environment in order for it to be so in terms of triggers and stuff I had thought that live noises and people who are autistic that could be overwhelmingly incredibly interesting but there are some things I've done a lot of work with children with autism so my experience is that loud sounds can be one of the triggers because I'm not an expert in any way I'm just like this is not the show of people so I want to be uber cautious but you're right there could be children in to watch that show who are like this is great, we love these sounds I always feel like it's a drop in the sea what we do and it's like you can never win because it's the spectrum but you can try this is what leads me anyway sorry I just want to add something in terms of from the artist perspective I also think I'm a presenter primarily and it's really important to me the same way that I am with Q&As is that artists have to be okay to do relaxed performances of course, right? I can't just as a presenter even as a producer well now we're doing relaxed performances and a conversation needs to happen on the front same with Q&As some artists love doing Q&As some artists hate doing Q&As and I completely respect that so if I need that that needs to be the conversation up front this show is going to have relaxed performances these are the audiences that are looking at they are going to have all those things so the artists have agency over the decisions they make in terms of where and how they want to put them I really agree and part of the things that are important for me when I search for a good show is who are the people behind it so I'm happy that a lot of them are my friends but I need people that that you know they don't do it just to get rich you know because they are really intrigued and interested and I cannot work with artists that cannot be fully in the process of this incredible thing that they are going to give the children so it's something that leads me also when I think of I might see a really really good production it's really suitable but I know the artist or the theatre might be they don't really care or they just do it for again for like PR then I will not work with them but it's not worth it yes Just to respond to that it's a question realm because I think it's problematic which is human rights I say this as an artist but I know that there are for example technical equipment I've known instances where there have been artists who said I won't have a ticket to work in my stage picture and you said well that the human rights are there but I've seen to access the performance and so maybe as a presenter one has an obligation to say you can't work here as an artist because effectively you're excluding people on the grounds of them and the same could be true about relaxed performances you're effectively saying I'm excluding you and your obligation and responsibility as an artist the other thing I was thinking about is there's two approaches there's this kind of the work that exists but there's also a bit like a work that we can't do and others there's a sense that there's an aesthetics of access that you start from there impulse for an artist and it makes the work actually richer by, it feels like a limitation but it's actually fantastic you know I know artists in the UK who are gagging to see where any carts work sometimes because they're told that the sonography and the sound and the aesthetic is so innovative and of course it's a small audience about ten people it's fantastic but you know it's it and I think there's a lot of other examples which have happened around for example inclusive audio description and sign language and sensory impairment as well as stuff around I've become interested in embracing the idea that you start from the point that we want to include everything and being as an artist in the nature of the show and I say that to someone who's got those words and I don't know the answer to it but that's where the limitation is always stimulation and I think there's such a wonderful strength I'm just thinking of the playful tiger process we um one thing we worked with so I was put in the position of like oh maybe you could train the venues and um but I was really so I collaborated with a young guy with autism who communicates through an iPad and he did the sensory audit for the venues and um what I completely adored about that process was he uh wouldn't have done that without um he wouldn't have found his way to that himself but then he was in this really powerful position and you could see it in his whole body like it was like really articulate and by the end he was just totally like inhibiting that role and like it gave him this like force like it meant loads to him doing that like his mum kept telling me like and I think there's something really there's like as a future as a way of like keeping developing and I thought that was the first time I'd ever like done that and I thought that's a really nice direction too to like include those young people as self-advocates but he needed some support enabling to be to self-advocate you know what I mean but then once he was like he was ready to go like he didn't need much support then he was like he could stop telling them off now he was like he was like oh my god what did you do with the lights he was your architect you are right I'm going to get fired he also wrote us a review from the point of view from the childhood what was it? 14 more times oh that was fantastic you posted a symposium yeah this was something like with symposiums and conferences and I just continually felt like I was in a position of always saying non-verbal people and never inclusion in the conversation so then me who's highly verbal is like really talking to everyone about this so in this symposium we we had like a one person who did the presentation to iGaze the young guy who could present it and yeah it's just like if with technology there's just so much more opportunity isn't there to make that possible and it feels like a really natural next step I think I think we had to finish our time as thank you so much for coming