 And so, yeah, welcome everybody, this is Paul Stacey, the Executive Director of the Open Education Consortium. Welcome to the pilot projects webinar. I thought having received significant expressions of interest from around the world in the pilot projects, I thought it'd be useful to do a webinar to kick things off and talk about the notion of the projects, the origin of them. What happened in terms of putting out a call for expressions of interest, and then talk a little bit about next steps associated with moving them forward. So I've prepared a bit of a presentation here, so let me move my presentation. So in terms of origin, these were ideas that were brought forward at our Open Education Global Conference, which happened in Delft in the Netherlands. This is a large international conference that brings together open education practitioners and advocates from around the world once a year. It moves around to different places in the world every year. But at this event, lots of people, including Paul, who is here with me in this webinar today, approached me and suggested ideas for initiatives that would be useful for the Open Education Consortia to support. And so there were quite a number of ideas that were pitched at me actually during the event, and out of all of them I picked three that I thought would have global significance to people around the world. One was a fellowship exchange, and the basic idea for this one was brought forward by Tian Balawadi, who's actually from the Indonesia Open University, but also is on the Open Education Consortia's board of directors. And the basic idea of this one is to really acknowledge that there's a lot of expertise that exists within the Open Education Consortia member base. We have 240 some odd members from 44 countries around the world, and all of them have significant expertise related to open education. But in different areas, and so the notion here is to see whether members would like to host other members and transfer knowledge from one to another so that that expertise gets built up across the entire organization. And the basic idea would be that there'd be some facility to enable the visiting persons or people to actually work with the host and receive a certain amount of renumeration for providing work, but in exchange receive knowledge that they could take back to their home institution. So this is one idea for a fellowship, and I'll talk about the response to it in just a minute. Paul, who's with us here on the webinar, brought forward the idea of doing an open anatomical atlas, and I'll give Paul a chance to talk about this a little bit later. But basically the core idea is to have people around the world who are interested in and have a responsibility often for teaching anatomy and physiology to collaborate on the co-creation of an openly licensed anatomical atlas of high quality anatomy in images. I think this is a really interesting idea, Paul. Thanks for bringing it forward, and I must say that of all of the pilot project ideas, the three that were brought forward, this one has generated the largest interest. And then the last, but the first image is already there. The last one had to do with translation of open education resources. And of course, as you probably all know, a lot of open education resources now exist, but primarily in relations. So the idea to be explored here is how might we engage students in translating open education resources from one language to another and or automation, because there's certainly one of the responses in terms of expressions of interest brought forward an actual tool that can be used to translate open education resources. So these were the three pilot project ideas. Here's the response of 58 expressions of interest from 16 different countries, and one of the exciting things from my point of view was that when people expressed interest, they also brought forward various things that they could contribute to the project. Some of them have already been working on this for a while and have made some progress. And so it's fantastic to see a starting pool of existing resources that can help move these things forward. And then here you can see the breakdown of expressions of interest across the three projects. 19 from eight countries for fellowship exchange, 36 from 12 countries for open anatomical atlas, and 16 from 10 countries for OER translation. And so we put out the call for expressions of interest in June, and we kind of left it open until the end of July just to assess whether there was interest. And actually, that level of interest, this level of interest is actually good from my point of view. That's more than enough to kind of get things kick started. And I think for me, the critical piece then becomes, well, to what extent are people really seriously interested in working together? Because, of course, it takes time and energy and effort to collaborate with others across boundaries and countries to make progress on initiatives like this. But from an open education consortia point of view, we decided to move forward and take some next steps. And so for each of the three pilot projects, I took the time to kind of aggregate all of the expressions of interest into one document and provide the names and locations and institutions that people are from in terms of where they work related to these pilot projects. And also offered up some suggestions for the kind of key planning questions that might need to be considered by all of the people who are interested to successfully move forward with the project. We also have put in place on our Slack technology platform channels for each of the three pilot projects and invited the people who expressed interest to join those channels. And the idea here would be to enable there to be some dialogue and discussion amongst all of those who are interested to help move forward these projects in a coordinated way and to engage people in the actual planning process and who's going to do what. From an OEC point of view, our role is this... I'm sort of seeing us currently as a participant for sure. We're definitely here wanting to help engage and move these projects forward. We're kind of acting as a coordinating body, providing some facilitation, matchmaking. And some people have asked us about funding. ICR, we have obviously allocated some funding to help support these projects, but we cannot fund the actual work involved in doing them all. But nonetheless, if there was a need identified by the people participating in the pilot projects for funding to get this work to move forward, then we would be happy to help contribute to that process of application for funding and be a party at the table. So that's the set of next steps that we took. And then this webinar is kind of the next step after that to kind of help create some awareness of what the projects are, the interest in them. And in the documents, the planning documents, as I mentioned, there were some suggestions from our side on what the participants might want to think about in terms of moving their pilot project forward. So on the fellowship exchange, the expressions of interest came from people who were interested in being hosted. So some people have a need, an area of expertise that they'd like to acquire. And others expressed interest in being a host. So they already have expertise that they're willing to help others acquire. So that's great, because we kind of need to have both sides of that equation in order to enable some fellowship exchange. And I know that the originator of this idea, Tian, had also had some experience with the Asian Association of Open Universities Fellowship Exchange. And so I've brought forward in the Slack channel for this particular pilot, the template that's used for the fellowship exchange by that organization as a sort of draft format for how an open education consortia fellowship exchange might work. But my hope would be that the participants can quickly kind of agree to follow a basic process. And I think the one that's in the Asian Association of Open Universities template is fine. And then try one out and see how it works. And I think if we started small and looked to build over time, this could be a really successful project. For the Open Anatomical Atlas, here's a quick little list of some of the things that people brought forward. A set of what I am thinking of as starting resources and really quite diverse and very interesting. And to be honest, I was quite impressed, Paul. I don't know how you felt, but I was pretty impressed with the diversity of the tools and the level of progress that different people had made on certain aspects of creating such an anatomical atlas. Of course, the challenge from my point of view becomes, well, so when we say open anatomical atlas, what's the scope? How comprehensive is it? And then how might those existing resources fit together? What remains to be developed? So some pieces are there obviously, but some aren't. And then when we say atlas, are we talking about a book? What is the form factor for the deliverable, if you will? And if it is a book, then both Una and I have had some preliminary conversations with Hugh McGuire, who's the person behind Press Books, the open platform for authoring books, textbooks, and also Rebus, the online community that supports the production and project management aspects of having a group collaborate on creating an open textbook. And that might be an appropriate platform, if you will, for authoring a collaborative atlas, if it really is to be a book. And then lastly, for the OER Translation One, one of the things that was brought forward was that certainly one of the people, Tennis Morgan, has already established a collection of multilingual OER. So OER in different languages. And others, like Werner Vesterman and Chile, are engaged currently in having open textbooks from open stacks be translated from English into Spanish for his target audience. So there are already some efforts underway in this area of translation. And Davor brought forward his work on Translexi, which is a tool, a web-based tool, that can automate the translation of education texts and documents. So it's good to see, again, some starting points for this particular initiative. In my view, this is kind of about supply and demand, by which I mean, if we're talking about translating open education resources, what is the demand side of the equation? What OER needs to be translated? Who has a use case and a need for a particular body of open education resources? That isn't in their language, but if it was in their language, would be really useful. And so that often is the missing equation from a piece of the equation from my point of view. You know, there's lots of interest in supply, but not always an awareness of the demand side. So what OER needs to be translated and what language does it need to be translated into? I think are critical questions. And then what's the process for translation? I will say that of all the expressions of interest in this particular pilot project, the biggest area of interest seem to be in having materials in Spanish, which I think is a good thing. It gives it sort of a focus. So that's kind of my quick, long sort of summary, short summary, I guess, but a kind of high level summary of the three pilot projects and the expressions of interest where we're at, sort of next steps going forward. Really the next steps reside now in the participants themselves. And I wanted to say a couple of things. One is it was great to get the level of interest that we got, but by no means do I think that that's all the people who are really interested. And so we've left the call for participants open. And if more people want to participate, they're welcome to. There's a post on the Open Education Consortia website talking about the pilot projects that just went up this week. That includes a link to the forum where people can continue to express interest in joining one or more of these. And then in the process of people working on them together, I think it's going to continue to be important for people to talk about what they have that can help these projects move forward to identify a role that they might want to play. And to think about these projects in this way, which is, what is it that together a collaborative effort like this can achieve that an individual or an institution on its own can't achieve? Because if it's just to achieve something small that any one of you could achieve, then I'm not sure that will be motivation enough to keep the team together, to keep the group together and have it be focused on making progress. I really think that you'll have to kind of have a scope of effort and an ambition to do something that is larger than what you yourself can accomplish on your own. And with that, I'm gonna stop talking actually and invite Paul and anyone else on this call who's here with us in person to talk about their interest. I know Paul's interest is in the open anatomical Alice. Others may have an interest in other pilot projects, but I'd welcome now some discussion among those who are here on the webinar about these pilot projects, how they see themselves being involved and what they'd like to see accomplished. So let me stop share and just stop talking myself. And so Paul, why don't I invite you to speak first about the open anatomical Alice, which I'm so excited that has generated such great interest. And I know you prepared some materials that you've posted in Slack. I saw that this morning. Thank you for that. I think that'll be really useful. Why don't you talk a little bit about some of what you've put in those? Thank you very much, Paul. And I'm delighted and honored that you gave to me this opportunity for this project. I recognize as fellow anatomist, Mike, his name. Hi, so you can hear me great. And I think the other people, I'm not sure whether people are interested in anatomy part or in other parts or just general OEC. Everyone's interested in anatomy, Paul. Yes. Go ahead and talk about it. Do you know anything about the people that have subscribed to but that can't be here? Did they say, okay, I like to participate but I can't join in here? Yeah, some of the people have sent that just in terms of it being not a good time for them. So I do think that the interest remains high, Paul. And I think that part of what we're trying to do is kind of enable communication about it in different formats and different channels to kind of reach people as much as we can. Fantastic. Yeah, it's always difficult to, you must point a moment. So let me, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. I made a little presentation. So I'd be free to share my screen if you don't mind. Sure. Go ahead. I must have a look at her. Beautiful water shot. Yes, that's Croatia. There you go. Now I hope it's there. I always like hearing people think out loud. Yeah. There we go, good. Oh, okay. Why is it, why am I seeing only half the screen? Why is it going there? Can I move this to the side to make it? Yeah, that's great. Okay, so thank you. So I, actually I'm already busy with this for a couple of years with this idea that came up years ago and I already did a couple of starting initiatives for it. And so the ideas that I had to share is first, why do we need it? Then how could we reach it and what kind of things are already there? You already showed some of them. So the plan is actually to create an open anatomical catalyst with quality controlled illustrations but with an open creative commons license. And why do I think we need it? Well, you already said it's key for anatomical learning and teaching as basic discipline for all medical sciences. And teaching anatomy, well, you really can describe it. You can say it goes left, it goes right, it goes up, goes down, it's large, it's small, it's gray, it's green, but you need to see it. So seeing is everything. And then you can say, okay, but there's a wealth go to the web, there's a wealth of anatomical images, but the problem is the images that are there are nearly all copyrighted. So there are lots of atlases, textbooks, but they're copyrighted, they're used within campuses usually, but within the campus constraints, they are licensed and not even all the campuses, we don't have a license actually. And there are thousands of images on the web, but they're either, I think 95% is pirated, they don't belong on the web, they're copyrighted, or they're old out of copyright from one old anatomical book, 80 years old, or they're not very detailed, or they have anatomical mistakes, or you can see them, that's useful, but they're not allowed to reuse. So actually, there are very few good quality anatomical images with real creative comments open license. And it gives a couple of troubles for the teachers. If you try to make open educational resources, if you try to make teaching on the web, you need open images, we made a MOOC and we bumped into that very hard. Another problem, if you do the web lectures nowadays, everything is recorded and they put on the local institutional learning platform, but it's regarded as a publication. And so it's a little bit tricky. We all put copyrighted images in there, but it's tricky. And teachers probably don't, we don't have a license access only to a few. So presumably a lot are used illegal and I've heard already from one example where a teacher for an anatomist got 5,000 euros fine for putting pictures in a presentation. So that makes people anxious. At least there are some people anxious. It's not a mass problem yet, but it can be. Well, for the students, even our students in our part of the country or of the world, which is a rich part of the world, most of them don't buy an anatomical atlas just because of the financial barrier. And in less wealthy countries, it's even a bigger problem. If you look to Wikipedia, has great lots of anatomical topics, but the imagery is still poor. It's mostly these black and white pen drawings from this one anatomy book from 1918 that's copyright has expired. I probably know the Grace Anatomy video series, film series, it's called after this main basic book of anatomy. It's the basic of all the anatomists. So, and students, they don't use atlas, just search online. But these problems, yeah, they have the problems they have pirated, anatomical errors. And the students are not even able to distinguish. Sometimes I get pictures and they show me some anatomical structure and I say, okay, but that's from a cat. That's not from a human. And they just don't recognize or they're just outdated. Hey, Paul, just before, can I ask you a question as you go along? If I do too long, I'll go faster. I just have a question for you about the absence of good quality images in Wikipedia. That seems to me that that opens up an opportunity to actually approach Wikipedia about this project. As you know, Wikipedia does other initiatives in areas where they're lacking good imagery. So the Wikipedia loves monuments, for example, being an example of a project where they sought images from really anyone who would help provide good pictures of significant monuments and historical buildings and statues and so on of interest to supplement what's in the Wikipedia article. And do you think that's worth doing? And if so, it might be something that I could bring forward or take forward in terms of contacting Wikipedia. It's absolutely a great opportunity to investigate it. The only reservation or doubt is that I have that so far the starting project that I did was getting open anatomical atlases. I'm already quite happy if I get them licensed under Creative Commons non-commercial license. That's already quite a challenge. And that doesn't work together with Wikipedia. So it's definitely a way to investigate. And it might be the case that if there's a large backing from the OEC Consortium and from Wikipedia and there's funding that brings artists over the threshold to say, okay, maybe then that's so interesting that I'm willing to drop the non-commercial attack. But that's the only, yeah, question mark. Okay, interesting. Yeah, and I see Mike has posted a link to the Wiki Project for Anatomy that has already been done. So interesting. Thanks, Mike. Go ahead, Paul. Sorry. Shall I continue in this way? Yeah, please, keep going. Okay, so basically I've got a feeling anatomy, it's so basic for us human beings. We know the knowledge for hundreds of years already. It's, I'm frustrated by the fact that we still have to pay and don't have good access to images. It should be, anatomy should be open in my opinion. So what should there be in the atlas? Well, there's a listing of things that you can think of and that were mentioned in the talks, in the meals before by several people. So it's first of all, I sort of drawings, then you've got the section photos and videos, microscopy slides, radiological images, 3D anatomical models, surgical operation photos and videos, animations, et cetera. Well, I think everything is needed. But I also think, let's see where the hardest need is and what's most frequently used. And let's not repeat things that are already there. So if we look at the section photos, I saw this blue link collection indeed. That looks very nice. So it's still a little bit difficult to access to, but I think it's great. The same thing is for the microscopy slides and for the radiological images, there's already a real fantastic website that has everything that you want, Creative Commons licenses, a huge user group and contribution group, a radio-pedia. So I think all these things are good and useful, but I think we should add to things that are there and not try to redo them again. Great. Actually, my experience as a teacher is that the artists created drawings, which are, yeah, might seem old-fashioned, just simple colored drawings, but they are the one that are most used, just simply used, people search the image on the web and people just want to know what the structure is. And I don't know, I only know one little collection, but not a comprehensive, big open creative Commons collection. And I think they have an advantage to these other things that they added their Dektec factors. So they can stress and clarify things by removing unnecessary detail, highlighting, putting things, you really need that in teaching. And in other advantages, they have little technical requirements. So you can, in all parts of the world, you can put them on the mobile phone. You can put them in paper. They can be distributed and used widely. So I also investigated a little bit. It's not, by far, not complete this investigation. It's work in progress. There are a couple of dozens of sites that I investigated for materials that it has. Here's the URL. So there is some stuff already there, but most stuff that there is either just open access, but not open reuse and really open reuse and quality control is only a few. The neuroanatomy site, this radiological site, a few that I am aware of. So my thing that I think is needed most, but people might disagree. I think everything is needed. And I think in the end, we must go to collecting everything and to giving access to everything. Does not need to be on one place, but make it available to find easily. But I think the thing that is needed most, at least in my experience, is simply the artist drawn quality control licenses, but because they are still really controlled by the copyrighted atlases. And it's not the same that you can build in your own. So if you say it's not for small projects, well, I counted the number of images in the atlases. It's approximately 1,000 per atlas. An atlas takes or image takes 1,000 to 2,000 dollars to make. So it's you're counting 2 million dollars to create such a thing. So it's not the thing that one department can do or one person can do. So how could it be done? Well, this is my idea of how it could be done. This is just a concept. My ideas take a little group of medical artists that you can start to work with, anatomists of dozens of institutions give these artists access to the section labs because I think one of the comments that I got from a great anatomist, he said, we're all copying the same images with the same errors and really original images. That's the only thing that that's high quality funding. I think that can be also from the institutions or try to find funding. But if we have such a thing as the open educational assertion behind it, that might definitely help and the kind of coordination. And my idea is you need both the artists to draw, the anatomists to determine which images are to be made in which order to coach the artist and to review them. So it's not just the funding that we need. We definitely need anatomists because that's just as much work from my experience drawing it, the artist can often do it faster than the anatomists have time to coach it. So you really need a large couple of universities with anatomists, they're willing to give some time because it's really time consuming to make a good image. And then in the planning, so you need first of all, a list. So of images, we're going to create these ones, contributing institutions, funding, a creation, a platform and which ones can you collaborate? Well, a list of images to create. You can go on several levels of detail and quality where you can say I go region by region. I think it's good to make a plan and not do everything, not to start everywhere, but for instance, to do one region and to do that completely and then to show off. Okay, so this is what it is. People come there to the place, they can't find the images they see. Okay, I won't come there in vain because if it's an image from that region, let's say a thorax, I'll always find an image and then that gives raises interest and other people will say, okay, if it works for the thorax, let's do the arm or the leg or the head or whatsoever. And Paul, you also said I was first focusing on the top quality images because these are the most difficult to access, but you rightly appointed me, okay, but you need images in different level of detail and quality. So I think that that's right. I don't know how to organize to prioritize, but I think it is right. In a prior project, I had already been making a little bit categorization. How can you see, yeah, how much an image should cost also for the funding you needed? And I didn't think of this myself, but you can categorize anatomical images in three quality levels, graphical schematic, graphical plastic and high quality. And regarding to the extent, these are the people that sorted these categories and I made a little imagery. So this is the most simple category. It's named by the people who made the category as graphical schematic. It's just line drawings. It's easy, not flat colors, no gradients, hard border lines. It's very useful to explain basic anatomy and you see three categories. This has little amount of detail and more detail, more elements from left to right. Then the next quality level is what they call graphical plastic. So it has some shadows, it has some gradients, it has some nicer colors, but large areas are not elaborated in detail. So you see here, this is not elaborated. It's just about this thing. The item is often shown in isolation. It's also great for basic anatomy, for patient information. It's not sufficient for the real medical student, but for a lot, it's useful. And the last category is the real high quality category with details elaborated, lots of details, nicely colored, nicely textured, nicely shadowed. This is both beautiful artwork and high academic quality work because you must imagine all these relations. There are dozens of structures here and all the relations, it's left, right, it's above, top, it's front must be correct towards each other. So there are thousands of relations between structures in here, you don't see it directly, but it's huge academic work from the most renowned artist in the anatomy network from the previous age. So I think the first thing is we must think, okay, which images and in which order and at which quality level. Then to get it done, we need contributing institutions, we need funding and creation. And yeah, I think that fits perfectly and actually is the only impossibility to do it with a group of universities or institutions under such an umbrella of open educational construction, such a big neutral organization. I think that's the only way to get it done. Then a platform to publish. A book might be a good idea, but actually, I also think you must do it on the web. We already, I would like to introduce a platform that actually we developed by Dutch anatomists, Dutch and Flemish anatomists. I should have put Flemish here too. It was a grant of the Dutch Ministry of Education. We developed a platform specifically designed and dedicated to open anatomy learning resources. So this is the page on images, but there's also documents, videos, et cetera. And they are searchable by a region system. Well, it's not completely filled in the taxonomy behind the scenes, so it's not perfectly working yet, but the code is there already. Yeah, it's really dedicated for that. So my view would be put it on such a dedicated platform and in a new project, we're now also extending it that it can be hosted to other two big collection platforms, big repositories, open educational repositories that can be harvested by open anatomical, no, open OIPMH, some kind of standard for harvesting so that it's not only on one platform, but that it can spread to other platforms. And I think a good business model might be because Flemish is always a business model. You can put it up there, but you must maintain, you must host it, et cetera. I think one of the business models might be that you also, besides having it on the web, you print it in a book because from presentations that I saw and research that I saw, I learned that students, they like the online, but 40 to 60% of the students, they also would like, if possible, to have a printed version, especially if that's not as expensive as the present day atlases. So even if it's free to take there, if you can get a nice printed version that you can take along to your dissection room or writing, I think there's a need for that and that might also offer a way of funding. Then the last thing, collaborations. Yeah, you already mentioned Wikipedia. This is the platform that we have, a project. We also have a new project there for exactly for creating anatomical images. So I think if we could collaborate, work together, extend with the OST project and that would be exactly the idea. And yeah, we also got a suggestion from Anatomical Societies. I think if you can work together with them, that also gives a larger feedback just to give you, and that's my finishing of what we already did in this project. So in two categories of images, so the graphical, classical, and the high quality image, we already started by making images. In the high quality field, you must think of the images are 1000 euros per image, more or less. We got a little grant to make some 10 to 15 images. We did an international contest, selected an artist from Switzerland. We had 25 contestants, made them a test and then we selected this one and she's now busy with, and the first images are there open with a creative license on the web. And the second was a present project that's just started this month's project two years, also as a grant of the Dutch Ministry of Education and with a couple of Anatomical Departments in the Netherlands and Flanders. We're going to open up the collection of actually the lifetime erver of a renowned, retired Dutch medical illustrator who's wishing to release his images under a Creative Commons license. And so we're going to organize that and put it out there on the web. That will be a couple of hundreds of open images. So I think it would be great in this project of making that if we would already also get the open educational construction people in there say, okay, I want this image. I need it and there's money to get it adapted. So either the Dutch universities can say, okay, we need this image in our teaching but if the Dutch universities are lazy and if there's an other university somewhere in the world and says, oh, that image looks great to me but I just want a stomach added or I want a blood vessel added, then there is some money and we can have it done and available with the criteria and that it must be, of course, published under Creative Commons license. So my takeaway, thank you for all the time. Let's do it. And my experience is that teachers always ask, oh, can I use that image? And then usually you have to say, no, no, it's copyrighted but I hope to get to the point that we can say yes. So thank you for giving me this platform, Paul and I'm very interested in other people's response to this. Yeah, thank you so much, Paul. I appreciate the preparation and the prior work and also mostly, and maybe you could stop sharing your screen and we'll see if there's others that want to say something but also just the enthusiasm, Paul. It's just wonderful and infectious. I love it. So, and I wanted to mention something that you, I didn't say earlier that was interesting for me and that was that, especially for this project, the anatomical Atlas project. Interestingly, some of the participants expressed interest in the other two pilot projects as well. So the basic idea was that, well, if we're going to engage some people at our institution in doing open anatomical Atlas work, maybe once we have some acquired expertise, we would do a fellowship exchange and invite others to come and learn from us or in your case, maybe someone would come and learn from you and be able to then do better work on their own open anatomical Atlas contribution. So there's the idea of potentially including a fellowship exchange component into the open anatomical Atlas work and similarly for OER translation. So as you can imagine, the open anatomical Atlas imagery would be super useful everywhere around the world and so, but not always in English, although frequently that topic, I think is primarily taught in English. But still, I think there's some interest in seeing the outputs coming out of that project not just in English, but in other languages as well. So for me of the three pilot projects, what was interesting was that the open anatomical Atlas one, some people saw that there was an interrelationship between the other two pilot projects and that would enrich the overall project for the anatomies. What I just missed in your talk, this hosting thing, who is going to pay for that if somebody from workplace A goes to place B? Well, so the, yeah, so I should say that the pilot project is exactly intended to solve that question. You know, exactly how would it work? Rather than pre-define and approach ourselves, what we thought we would do is say, who's interested in a fellowship exchange and now that we have people that are interested, let's work together to define a model for how that would work. The template that I shared from the open Asian universities, their model is roughly like this. The person who's going on the exchange to receive the knowledge transfer pays for their costs to go to be at their host university, but the host university pays them a stipend associated with the time that they invest in doing work at that university. So you could imagine it almost like a small amount of money being paid to someone temporarily to be working for you on your project. So there's a little bit of money on both sides, but clearly the person receiving the knowledge bears the primary cost of actually traveling, living and eating and being in a different country for a period of time. And the period of time also is something that can vary. How long should it be? How long would it take? These are all things to be defined by that pilot project as part of what they move forward with in terms of a fellowship exchange recommendation. So. And exchange content is on how to create open educational resources, is that correct? It could be on a variety of topics, Paul. For example, the group here in British Columbia that I'm familiar with have a lot of expertise in offering open textbooks, multiple faculty working together to create a textbook. So they have a lot of expertise in that and they're interested in hosting others who want to offer open textbooks, but have never done that before. And so you could imagine a fellowship exchange just on that topic. But the number of possible topics is large, right? It could be we're an expert in open education policy and we'll host someone who needs to learn how to do open education policy for an exchange. So that's the basic concept is that the fellowship exchanges around knowledge transfer of expertise from one body to another. Well, that was, so any, so Mike has shared some stuff. If you haven't been in chat yet, Paul, I encourage you to click on the chat option to see the link to Wikipedia that Mike shared and he's obviously also connected to Lisa Lee at the VMD, which is great to see. I was pleased to see that in some ways, many of the people who responded to this pilot already seem to know each other and felt like a team was being formed through this initiative, which is great to see. And I hope we attract more people as it goes forward. And I really appreciate, Paul, the structure that you've proposed makes a lot of sense to me. And I think that as others begin to engage, it'll be interesting to see whether we can kind of get everyone going in the same direction with a plan, either your plan, which you've mapped out beautifully or with a shaped plan that others have contributed to. I'm just wondering whether there are any other comments or questions from the other participants here. So Mike is wondering whether anyone is attending IFAA 2019 in London. I won't be, but maybe you are, Paul. I will probably, there's chances that I will be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I was invited to submit a symposium proposal on social media use in anatomy education. So we'll see where that goes. I think those are due at the end of the year in December. Yeah. Okay. Great. Mike, what do you think of the thing that I suggested? Yeah, so I'm most interested in the Atlas and I see the need. I think it fills a gap. And I, yeah, I'm just interested in how someone like me, I'm an assistant professor at a medical campus. So I didn't, when I saw the anatomy Atlas, I thought it was only of cadaveric photos. And so I have tons of line drawings that I make in Adobe Illustrator that are on this end of the spectrum. That's the simplified schematic. So I would be happy to share some of those and kind of see how they could be a contribution because for me, I think I'm the type of participant that does not have the, you know, the saying in America, the bandwidth to jump on and contribute to this project in a big way. But if I have materials that I can contribute, that I own, that I created, that's where my interest lies. So that's why I'm here. I wanna kind of see if that works, what that looks like. That's great, Mike, thanks. I think all anatomists, nearly all anatomists don't have that bandwidth. We're all, in fact, small people in our own department with as usual anatomy departments have little funds, very little funds. But I think by collaborating, the thing that we can offer is our knowledge. And if we could attract some funding for artists, then we can dedicate some time to coach and review the images. And that knowledge is the vital thing. And I think all our small anatomy teachers, but if you have a lot of them, you can come far. Thanks a lot, Paul. And I see, I'm just looking at the list of participants and I see Werner Vasterman is here and he, I don't know, Werner, if you have your microphone working, but if you do, I welcome you saying some words about your interest, which was primarily in the other two pilot projects, not this one. So Werner, if you are able to speak, I encourage you to share with us some of the work you're doing around OER translation and or your interest in the fellowship exchange. Just see if you're able to. I don't see, it doesn't look like he has this microphone on. Yeah, exactly. I don't think he's listening. Okay. Thanks, Marc. Just was trying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's there. He's there. He's, yeah, he's part of the webinar, but not able to speak, I think is what's happening. Exactly. All right, well, any, so any last remarks from anyone? I'm delighted to see the high level of interest in the anatomy one, but I think the other ones have merit as well, and I really hope all three move forward. I think we're there at the table wanting to help, but it'll take collective effort. Oh, that'd be great, Mike. If you drop some schematic examples into the Slack channel, I think that will be fantastic. And when you do that, if you could say something that encourages others to share things that they might already have, I think that'd be really great because my sense of things, because I've heard email from different people as well, is that there are lots of other people like you who've seen this need and started to create something on their own, but no one else knows about it other than them. They use it for their own teaching, but not in association with others. So I think the larger the collection of resources we can amass, the better things will be. Thank you so much. Yeah, I have a comment. This is Una Daley from CCCOER. And I wonder if there might be an opportunity to involve students at medical schools. And I know, of course, they're extremely busy folks as well, but I know having had the opportunity to visit the University of California Irvine Medical School, they do some very interesting projects with their students. They, a lot of them involve social media, putting together resources that are initially, they're projects that eventually are shared with the community and there's prizes awarded on an annual basis for the best student project related to medical knowledge. And so I wonder if there might be an opportunity to bring students in as well, who, you know, medical students who have the anatomical knowledge who could participate as well. That's a great suggestion. And I'll let Paul and Mike respond to that. Maybe Mike wants to respond first. I actually, my kids have joined me in the room here. Could you just repeat the comments? Sorry, I missed that. Yeah, no worries at all. I was wondering if there's an opportunity here to involve medical students. I know that a number of medical schools here in the US, particularly I've had the opportunity to visit UC Irvine Medical School and their students do annual projects around medical knowledge, which are then shared out into the community. And this seems like an area that they might be interested in. And of course, UC Irvine is one of our members. Yeah, I mean, we have mentored scholarly activity projects that are capstone projects for University of Colorado. Those take more than a year, typically, and they're not always education-based. But yeah, so I don't know exactly what that would look like for medical students, but typically there's a small percentage of students that are really interested in contributing their knowledge. And I have a paper out recently on how medical students have contributed to a wiki, an online wiki, and basically what they did the most is they put their anatomy, illustration, and study resources on the wiki. So that was an example of that. Yeah, I think it kind of sounds like what you're saying, Buna, where they would kind of share their knowledge projects. And I guess, yeah, UC Irvine, what they, sometimes it's a cross-discipline, so it's medical students working with students in the computer science department to produce apps, medical apps that can be used. But here in this particular case, it might be working with the art department. You know, I just, I see opportunities where students could be involved in this kind of stuff. And obviously then these medical students can benefit from this and share it within their system. So I just, sometimes they have a little more time and passion to do this kind of work. Right, they have to say, India. They have to say, India. Well. Yeah. I think they, there are some students who are very talented. We did a contest also, and we got one student that's beautiful images that he made. But to make large amounts and really to get comprehensive, I think it is more in the extras, little project, side projects, and the, let's say the level one and level two imagery. I think they can do great in that, but my feeling is that, but that's maybe I'm too such. And I think that, I think that's fine. The top level one is the most needed one. And there you really need an artist because it's also, it takes me hours and hours as anatomists to check if something is correct. I really have to research it and it takes the artist hours and hours to make it. So it's really not easy. Yeah. And I think having students participate, whether they're reviewers, assistants in some way, it could be very helpful towards their education. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't think I'm leading the project, but participants, yeah. Yeah, I think it's great to involve them because they also can say what's most useful for them, how they like it. I know actually often there's a book, a medical book written by students in two years, just taking all the lecture notes together and drawing all kinds of doctors together with it. So I think they can do be very useful, but yeah, for certain departments. Yeah, yeah. I like the idea of kind of having, if there was an approach that engaged students, your idea, Paul, of needing to have an anatomist review the illustration work of a person who's creating an image, it seems to be like if there was student involvement kind of like Una's suggesting, it'd be interesting to involve art students who have requirements around showing their and developing their skills in terms of creating imagery, maybe just for the first two levels, like you suggested, but then pairing them up with students studying anatomy to have the review of the work being done by the other art students be insured in terms of accuracy. Anyways, that could probably be a very good idea because reviewing takes a lot of time, so if you have a first review being done by students, then you can save time. Yeah. That's a great idea. I see Mike's posted another link. Mike, you wanna talk about what you've shared? Yeah, so just as things come in my mind, I'm just dropping them down. So basically, as Una has mentioned, medical student involvement, we have a cohort of around 25 to 28 graduate students that are doing a master's degree, and we've labeled our program Modern Human Anatomy, so they get the classical training in histology embryology gross anatomy, and then they also get exposure to technology in terms of imaging modeling and coding and also education. So anything that kind of is identified as a need in anatomical education, that there's a small group of our cohort that are interested in that. And what we typically do is we farm as the graduate students out to faculty as PIs on projects, and they're the mentors. So I don't know who would exactly be the mentor in this situation. They typically need to be local and on site like I could be a mentor if my involvement in this project grows, but they're so brilliant and they're just an untapped resource in many ways. So I don't know, just keep them in mind and they could be a resource. Thank you. Absolutely. Well, lots of great ideas being shared here. I think maybe we'll draw things to a close at this point, but thank you so much, Mike and Paul and Una and Marcella, Werner for joining us. Really, really interesting discussion. I'm excited by these pilot projects and really hope that they get traction and that we can show how it's possible to collaborate across countries and time zones and that there's a collective need and will to create some open resources for supporting these pilot projects. Thanks so much to all of you. And with that, I'm going to stop the recording and say goodbye and wish you all well. I'll see you all in the Slack channels. Can I just ask a question? Yeah, of course. I guess you have further plans. My, came to my mind, make a next meeting, try to get in more people from these universities that have expressed interest and try to make a real agreement. Okay, what are we going to do? Really get started, but I guess you have experience on what's the best way to do that, but my fingers are... If you're ready to go. My time is limited, so I'm always... Of course, yeah. ...more ideas and wishes than I can realize. I think that's true for everyone, Paul. And so, yeah, I guess here's my feeling about it. I'll just say what my thinking and plan is. Done a little bit of legwork to help kind of make this happen, bring people together, get the concept on the table, fleshed out, show who's interested, provide some channels for there to be dialogue and discussion. I'd love to see some dialogue and discussion happen in those channels because that doesn't take a lot of effort, but it shows that there's commitment and interest and motivation to proceed. And a significant piece, from my point of view, is that that dialogue and discussion be focused on a plan. What is the plan? What is it we're gonna try to do together and let's come up with something that scopes that out and defines it in a way that everyone agrees? I think that at some point, Paul, I think there's a need for virtual meeting among participants for each pilot separately to kind of move forward with those. But rather than me schedule them all, I'm looking for the desire to come from the participants. I'm here to help make it happen and I'll play a lead role in supporting it. But I don't wanna say today we're gonna have a meeting and then not have anyone show up. And so I think that the motivation has to come from the participants and I'm looking to see that motivation be expressed virtually in the Slack channels first and then when people feel like it's time for us to get together and really formulate a real plan and we need to use a virtual means to do that, then I'm here to help make that happen. I also think at some point, if these things start to get legs and really people are engaged, I do think that there'll be opportunities to find funding for these, Paul. And a piece of funding that I think would need to be found is something that would bring together, let's say, all the people involved and interested in the open anatomical Atlas to meet face to face and to have a planning session for a couple of days that maps out in detail what the project will entail and who's gonna do what. And I think that that could be a plan about moving forward on doing the open anatomical Atlas just collaboratively. It could also be a meeting that is bringing people together to formulate an application for a large amount of funding that they want to put forward to some potential funder. And so I think that all of those things are possible and doable and I want to see them happen. But I can't make them happen on my own. I have to rely on the people who are expressing interest in showing that they really are interested. For me, the hard part, Paul, is about breaking people out of the silo of their own little initiative, right? Everyone's got their own little thing going within their own institution that has been able to make a certain amount of progress. But I really think that your idea, for example, is a big idea that cannot be accomplished in that way. And so I'm looking for people to acknowledge that and to say, well, I really buy into the big idea and I am going to actually provide some bandwidth in contribution toward it. And then we will try to amplify that and bring more and more people on and bring some momentum forward and help make it happen. Maybe Mike mentioned the IFAA, that's the International Federation of Association of Anatomists that's the overarching organization of Anatomical Associations and it will be in London 2019. It's hosted by the Imperial College. I'm connected to the person who, or I know, I spoke to the person who did that. Mike, would it be a good idea if we would, as you mentioned, face-to-face meeting to try to make aside an extra day before a pre- or post-conference to invite people to have a meeting there? That's a great idea. Good idea, yeah. Yeah, let's pretend that it is a Slack channel. Yeah, maybe I think if we, because there's also some time because everybody's busy, I know time flies so that there's still some time to set it up. Then I say it would be great if we have a couple of anatomists that we propose that to the organization so that it can be a side-by-side meeting. Would you be willing to share in that, Mike? Such an initiative to organize such an extra meeting. Yeah, I mean, it all depends on whether or not my proposal gets accepted. It's not the type of conference that I'll just be there anyway. I would only go. So I don't think we'll know until the spring, unfortunately. Yeah, we also could do the AACA. I've got, actually, I'm talking with the anatomists from the AACA each two weeks on a video conference. So we might also try to join in there. That's easier for the American people. Now, I will say what is most easiest for this American anatomist is the AAA meeting in April in Orlando, Florida. So I will be there and I could represent the project there and get to talking on the forum for the AAA American Association of Anatomists and then, yeah. But that's possible. I always have the impression that the AAA is more research-based and the AACA is more education-oriented. So AAA has an education journal, though, that has pretty good impact factor. So that might be a perception that should change or could change, but yeah, it's there. Yeah. But yeah, so that's fine if we do that. I don't have that connection with the AAA. Actually, I'm a member, but yeah. So, yeah, we could maybe could do different things in conjoined, both the IFAA, which is in Europe, and AAA in America, originally. So then you have different continents because it's always in the European conferences. The European people come more in American conferences. Logically, the American people come more because of the cost of traveling. That makes a lot of sense to me, Paul. I mean, I think that when there are opportunities like those convenings, it seems appropriate if there are participants in this initiative that could kind of talk about what they're doing, what this initiative is all about, and attract others who are interested. That would be fantastic. And I think that there's sort of, in my view, there's sort of those opportunities to kind of promote this work is one strand of thing, but then the other strand of thing is really around the people who are part of the project meeting to formulate a plan and determine the go-forward process that everyone will want to engage in. And so those are kind of two slightly different activities. One is promotion and trying to attract more people. And another is the group itself meeting to kind of plan and go after funding and so on. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I wouldn't be able to take the lead in April because that's just my most peak, particularly. Sure. So when is IFAAA? What's the date for it? That's a good question. Do you know that, Mike, is it in the middle of the year or so? The date for IFAAA is August 9, August 9, something like that. Yeah, August 9, 10, 11. Yeah, so it's nearly a year or so. OK, well, hopefully we'll make some progress before then. You're active in the AAA, Mike, I understand. Yeah, AAA, yeah. That will be in April. Yeah. I think it's good that it stays a multi-continent initiative. So the American associations are indeed worldwide. But I think it's good to have both sides of the pond involved. Sure. So I don't know completely how. Yeah, it's best to have people at one moment together and then to start off. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I don't know which one would be the best. I know which was best for me, but not which one is for general. We might post that in the Slack channel, maybe. Yeah, I encourage you to do that. I think that that's the kind of thing, Paul, that I am imagining being put forward in the Slack channel and there being some dialogue and discussion. And maybe both happen, but with slightly different people. And I think that that kind of process will be really useful. The more dialogue and discussion that happens in the channels, the more activity there is, and the more progress I think will be made. So I really encourage that to happen. It was super nice to meet you both. And thank you so much, Paul, for preparing a bit of material to share. It was really fantastic. So exciting, the work that you're doing and wanting to do with others. And I'm really pleased to have Open Education Consortia also here, helping to make it happen. And we'll continue to work with all of you to make some progress. Thank you very much for giving us the trust to make the pilot project. And I think anatomists are very, very busy. So you can be busy with weeks, not responding. But that doesn't mean that it's off the radar. And it's a long-term goal that I definitely know there will be a need for it. I agree. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you all. I'll say goodbye until next time. And I'll see you in the Slack channels. Thank you, guys. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.