 Welcome and aloha. Thank you so much for joining us on think tech Hawaii. Wherever you may be whether you're here in Hawaii or anywhere else at good afternoon good evening, whatever time it may be where you are. I hope it's a time that's good for you. And we have a really good fortune of having with us today. Tina Patterson, who has just added to her many laurels. Being selected as a council member for the American bar association section of dispute resolution, a leadership position for the largest dispute resolution group of the largest association of lawyers anywhere. Hey, and David Larson, the immediate past chair of the ABA dispute resolution section and a professor at Hamlin Mitchell Hamlin School of Law in St. Paul. And we've kind of devolved into today. It's a topic that we've bounced around and skimmed off of a lot of times in our past discussions. But today we're just going to come right on and go there and talk about trauma. What it's like to deal with it. What are the resources and directions that may be of use. So David, you've just experienced one. How's that still impacting you. Well, we're It's very recent. A week ago Friday, we had a home invasion where events began that somebody that was clearly troubled. And his methamphetamines or something had this person very agitated and very violent. At 1030pm at night started banging on the back of our house, shouting, let me in, let me in and apparently this person had been going around the neighborhood police had been called. So just as he was getting to our house police were arriving, which is good. He didn't answer the back and he circled around to the front and he started pounding on the front door. And we had looked out the back and saw the police had arrived. And when he got to the front door he's just banging on it and he shouts it's the police. And so we thought it was the police that come from the backyard. We opened the door like there he is like a one foot away from us. And I just slammed the door shut immediately. And he's just pounding on the door, you know, let me in, let me in, let me in. And the police tried to talk him down for a while. And it wasn't working. So they started yelling taser taser taser. And we heard the tasers are clicking. And, and he was tased and it did nothing. And he just pulled the tags out. And at that point picked up a lawn chair and threw it through our window. And we were standing about five feet away. And as soon as he threw the chair through the window he followed it through and came into our house. Immediately afterwards one of the officers that was there followed him in and tackle and got on top of them but couldn't restrain them. We were able to get to the front door which is only another 10 feet away, but the second officer in and that person was having trouble the two of them restraining them. And we had 911 on the phone. They're saying more squad cars are coming and eventually 14 squad cars came. 20 police officers were in our house. Before they arrived it was like a movie brawl in our house. They were fighting. We've got a lot of interior damage that we're going to have to have repaired initial estimates are $23,000 might even be more. So we're going to have to kind of live through all those repairs. But the good thing is that this person wasn't able to get to us physically. So it's property damage, things that can be repaired. But thank God it isn't personal injury. And we're really grateful for that. Wow. So glad that neither of you were hurt. How long did it take for the police to finally really subdue him? Took a long time. The two officers, they could kind of hold them down, but they weren't subduing them. And they're fighting for this 10, 15 minutes. It wasn't until more police officers came that they were able really to restrain him and even then they were probably on the floor for another 15 minutes trying to calm them down. They called mental health professionals and eventually took them out on a, they walked them out, but then put them on a stretcher, took them to the hospital. When he got to the hospital, he immediately started attacking the staff, the hospital, so he assaulted staff at the hospital too. So five counts of criminal complaint or as a protection. You know, there'll be victim impact statements. So there's much more to happen still. Wow. What kind of questions does this raise in your mind? David, I can relate. It raises several questions and also brings to mind a couple of things based on my training. The fact. So the tasers would generally bring an adult down. Unless that adult is in an agitated state and that agitated state could be because of drugs or other things that they've ingested. It's unsettling to hear that the officers could or unable to subdue him, which kind of makes me think again about him being on drugs or being on some type of substance that really just hyped up his adrenal system. I guess the questions that come to mind are, how do you, you know, how do you feel? How do you, for most of us, our home is our haven. It's our safe space. And when someone unwanted enters our space and destroys our space, there's this equilibrium. And so the question that comes to mind is, how do you get that equilibrium again? And what does it take? And I'll just say again, I can relate. Someone vandalized my property recently. So I completely relate to it. So those are the questions that come to mind. Yeah, you know, okay. Always been kind of a glass half full guy. So, even though we had some significant damage, it's, he didn't get to us and didn't physically harm us. So that's, that's kind of the, I think that's what's sustaining us right now that we can say that, okay, this other stuff can be repaired. And it's going to be problematic. It's going to take time. But thank God that, that we're okay. We're okay physically. So, in the short term, that's I think how we're looking at that. My wife and I grew up in a town that fairly high crime town. There was a fair amount of violence. In the 1960s, we had a mayor of Subanjan, who made national heads when there was racial conflict, and he ordered the National Guard to shoot on site. That kind of a place. And so this is not something we haven't been aware of. If I'm in the community, we grew up and there was a certain amount of violence that wasn't quite as immediate as this by feet away. But it was happening around us. So we were aware of it. And I think that gives us a little bit of a context that this isn't something that doesn't happen. And that being said, it was so incredible to have this crash and a chair fly through the window and the person coming through the window, that it's almost not real. This can't be real. This didn't really happen. It's too surreal. So I think that's a little bit of it too. It's so unimaginable that, I don't know, maybe it just hasn't settled in completely yet. Hopefully it never will. It'll just be something that this is so unbelievable. It could never happen again. I don't know that it would and I hope it wouldn't. But I think that's where we are right now. It just was such an unbelievable occurrence that it's hard to believe it's real. So what are the most stabilizing elements forces for you folks now? Well, I mean, certain confidence that the, you know, we can talk about policing a lot and we are talking about policing a lot. And we need to talk about policing a lot. You know, we're in a period where we are looking at past behaviors and understanding that we need reform and we need reform on different levels. I'm pleased to say that I believe that's happening in the Twin Cities right now that we are making progress in that direction. But I am glad that we do have police because if they had not been there following this person in through our broken window, I don't know what would have happened. So the fact that I take comfort in the fact that we still do have for situations of immediate violence that we still have law enforcement authorities that can and will intervene because it certainly made a difference in our situation. And those are important things to understand because we know there are lots of neighborhoods where having police on the scene and in contact even before the intrusion. Hey, is afar cry from their reality. Yeah, we're just lucky. I know that we weren't the first house approached. Had there not been a call already in. I mean, I don't know what time the last between the initial call because I don't even know who made it, and the time when they showed up. So it's just serendipitous. It's just coincidental that they were showing up right when he was arriving at our house. And I like to think and I will assume that they answered pretty quickly and I will say that when the latter calls came in for for much assistance, police did show up quickly at that point, but at that point it's pretty clear that things have gotten pretty bad and we needed assistance ASAP but but they did respond quickly. And you indicated that you've known people who have gone through traumatic violence. What in your experience has helped them the most to recover from that if they did a sense of community. Those someone or some groups of individuals that they can talk to and listen. Without judgment without pointing fingers or blame and allow that person to go through the gamut of emotions, whether it's feeling guilty or feeling uncomfortable or feeling scared and being able to express that and knowing that it. Stuffing it down is not the best, and because it will manifest in other ways, whether it's insomnia or overeating or other behaviors. Those are those are some of the ways talking to a counselor I think one of the things that COVID has really brought to bear. And it's talked about a little bit I would hope that it will be talked about more is the access to counseling online, whether it's through the various organizations that are offering counseling for free. Or if you want to talk to someone in the faith community that's also another option but knowing that someone that there's someone you can talk to I have been finding this topic is we're discussing this tonight because I have been recently listening to me a bird songs book how we show up and it's about trauma part of it is about trauma and having that sense of community that sense of connection and what happens when we. We feel that we are we're traumatized whether it's past trauma that is repeating itself and showing up in our lives or it's a recent trauma that's triggered something else and and how to to to be able to. Not always come to peace but at least be able to navigate and be able to be functional versus struggling to do basic things get out of bed. And also moving away from I have to keep it to myself. I'll share this because I was talking with a colleague about this the other day, and it was in the context of when when we are in a situation that makes us either feel uncomfortable or vulnerable. Especially in the African American community, the concept of getting support mental health support is not generally looked highly upon it's something that only white people do all white people do that you should just pray about it or you know you just we don't tell others and we see this in other communities as well you don't tell strangers. Sometimes we need to tell a stranger, because that family member that that person that we normally talk to is too close, and is not going to just listen and sometimes that's what, but we really need when we're in this space, we need someone to just listen and say it's going to be okay. That's really valuable insight because I know here in Hawaii where we have a very large Asian Pacific population. There is a stereotypical resistance to being available to or contacting support services after trauma. No matter how much it's needed, whether physical or emotional or the worst physical the more the emotional kicks in. That can be a really, really hard thing to find people in the family who can help convince that person and go with that person to do that. To first up, yeah, David. I was saying Tina mentioned, you know, the community is really helpful. So, there was no way this was going to not be unnoticed with 14 squad cars outside our house with the lights flashing. We knew something was going on. But our neighbors came over right away. And there was a lot of blood around, you know, they were fighting and believing they came through broken windows and got cut up. So now it's, you know, now it's like 1130 at night on a Friday we got damage and blood. You know, if we had just been alone, kind of just looking at that and thinking, oh man, what are we going to do now. It's really been tough. But our neighbor came over with rubber gloves and a bucket and, you know, and began using soap and water and started cleaning up the blood. I don't know if this is biohazard protocol. She had a big jug of Mr. Clean. So that's how we sanitized and crossed my fingers that that was good enough, but I think it was. So, but to have that person show up and kind of take that off our shoulders that immediate cleanup and like broken glass everywhere to help clean up the real immediate things, getting rid of the blood and the broken glass was tremendously helpful. And the police department does have a contract with a restoration company. So they were over the come over and just been bought up windows and things like that. So having someone to assist us in the immediacy was tremendously helpful that, you know, we just weren't left there staring at and trying to figure out what do we do next. So the idea of having a community and it can be a community on a social friendship level could be a government entity, professional association, but having a community as opposed to no community is really essential. That restoration of connectedness when you felt most vulnerable most at risk can be an extremely big part of opening a door to evening and willingness to engage in healing. So let's ask maybe a somewhat harder question. This may be an example of how the response or responses overall and over time, who were, if not ideal, they were, they were pretty good. We see lots of examples in our society of where we're falling way short. Where to your way of thinking are the worst of those. Tina. I'm not sure I follow the question. So, can you expand a little bit more. Where, where are we falling short of providing that support that reconnection that opportunity for help in healing. I think sometimes it is in the time that we expect the healing to occur. Everything is speedy. Everything is fast nanoseconds. And this is an instance where we can't measure, we can't measure what what that trauma is going to look like. I'll share something that happened to me I mentioned my property being vandalized a couple weeks ago. I don't know who vandalized it I came home and found that part of my property had been damaged. It was a mat it's a matter of, there isn't a community. No one has said anything everyone's quiet. I got a police report, but I thought, you know, I took pictures I, I contacted my insurance company. People have people who know me have said, Oh, let me know if you need something and then moved on. In the meantime, I'm navigating trying to find someone to repair this work. And what it's turned into is and I'm sharing this because this is how it can manifest. I thought everything was okay until I started realizing not sleeping at night. And, you know, the first time I thought, Oh, you know, you just a little antsy. Well, now it's repeated. And I realize it's that sense of, I don't feel safe. If this can happen, what else could happen. And what steps can I take. And it's that it's, it's literally it took me saying what can I, what can I take control of in this situation. Because I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm navigating this maze of insurance company contractors, trying to get all of this sorted out. And it's, it feels a bit overwhelming. And it, it's supposed to be and I had a friend who texted me the other day so I was like, I would love to say yes. But the answer is no, it's not. And until it's fixed, this still hovers over. So I think that's where we go wrong and thinking it's a quick fix it's going to be immediate and, you know, it's it's It could take time and something may happen down the road that makes that person think of that event or or what transpired. So I think not trying to say not trying to say there's a time period in which you are supposed to no longer be experiencing the trauma because it can It can creep up, it can pop up, it can show up in any number of ways and I don't want to sound doom and gloom but I do want to talk about the realities of how it can appear. You know that person who was suddenly and I talked with a client recently. She, in the course of a two hour conversation must have smoked at least five cigarettes and partly four or five cups of coffee and I said, This is wearing on you. And this is how it's manifesting itself. Hey. And I think that's a really important point to remember is that, while the immediate situational physical effects may be things that can be dealt with. The mental emotional effects and situations that can trigger the flashbacks the recurrences that feeling again. I mean, for example, if you were walk to walk into your home could be weeks later could be months later and something about it just doesn't look or feel right. It means that that same experience that same fear that same feeling of violation might come back is right there. And you're right those are things that we don't pay attention to we don't deal with. I think sometimes we want to rush through it. And we want to rush through it and oh it's been a week, everything should be okay it's been two weeks, everything's going to be okay versus, you know, just asking, how are you, how are you feeling. You know when we think about people who have been the survivors of violent acts that have been perpetrated against them. Sometimes it's months and years before there's a sense of wholeness again. And it's literally bringing back those pieces of yourself to feel whole again or feeling like you have some type of control and giving the person space to say, you know, I don't like going out at night by myself. I don't like, I don't like walking in the park early in the morning and not not attaching a stigma or pre judging the person because that's where they are. We don't know what has brought them to that point. And this is the coping mechanism that they're using to navigate. And I think we've always been a little better at treating physical injuries. And because it's more objective, we can kind of map it out and figure out what's wrong. When it comes to mental, mental impairments, mental injuries, mental health, it remains a little more mysterious a little more elusive. And people react very differently. There isn't just, you know, the fracture arm is pretty much one way to fix it. Someone is subjected to trauma, you're going to get different kinds of reactions with different people. And it's, and it becomes a lot harder to try and treat that and diagnose that. So I think that that's one of the remaining challenges we're living through right now. I don't know if there's a silver lining to COVID, but one thing that happened to COVID is that our lives are really seriously impacted and we're living them differently, we're living them more in isolation. And we've begun talking about mental health in ways that I don't think we ever have in my lifetime and thinking more critically about it, paying more attention to it. And that's, that's good. And I think that we will get better at mental health. And that can have all kinds of helpful impacts and going back to policing a lot of times and thinking about what happened at our home. That was a troubled person. And they tried to talk this person down. There was no way to do it. It's happening too fast. If somebody could have gone to this person at an earlier date and time than the day this happened, maybe there could have been an intervention that would have prevented it from ever happening in the first place. So when we think about our policing, I was never a fan of the mantra defund the police. And I never thought a lot of people saying that we're really defund the police. I think there are at least many people I know are saying, fix the police, amend the police, supplement the police. It's not that we don't need law enforcement, but we need something else, we need more. And, and I think that we're in the midst of that discussion that what other kinds of services and interventions do we need to, to make available to make our environment a safer place. And that's a great insight because it's pretty hard to think of a police department or duty officers anywhere who have any significant amount of training and mental emotional health issues, and how to deal with those in people. And a lot of these, whether it's even Valde or Parkland or anywhere else, those are central. And there's another question that comes up relatedly. For the people who are subjected to this who experienced this. Is there a difference for those people between severe accidental harm, the wildfires, the floods, the hurricanes, tornadoes, and the personal violent harm. What's your thought. I don't know if I can answer that. You know, a lot I think depends on the person because I'm thinking about Kentucky now. And, you know, the devastation that some people have experienced and there are people that don't have homeowners insurance or they're uninsurable because they live in a floodplain. You know, they've been just completely devastated. They've lost everything they own. And even though it's very different than a personal assault. I don't know how they recover from that or if they ever will. They'll probably will go on, but I don't know if they'll ever feel like they've reclaimed what they've lost. So, you know, I have a difficult time comparing apples and oranges a little bit saying one is worse than the other. I'm not sure I can do that. David, I'm not sure I can do that. And I think on some level, whether it's physical or because of external force. In this case, we're talking about a natural disaster. The trauma, it's the, it's how that trauma appears where that trauma rests, whether it rests in the body or in the mind or a combination. I don't think you can say one is greater than the other. It's trauma. And it's how that trauma is addressed. How that trauma is triaged is critical. I agree with you, David. I don't think I don't think you can you can say one is one is worse or one is less worse than the other. They're both they're both difficult. You know, they're both going to generate the sleepless nights. They're both going to have the person experiencing sorrow and going through stages of grief because of some loss, whether it's loss of innocence or loss of property loss of a loved one loss of that sense of community loss of that sense of feeling stable back to the equilibrium. You know, the equilibrium is gone and and now you're you're out there. You're vulnerable. And you hear that you hear the noise outside your home, and you've had a home invasion or some kind of trauma in your home. That certainly will bring back flashbacks and fear. But if you've suffered the kind of flooding they've suffered in Kentucky and people have died, and you hear that big thunder clap. You hear the storm coming the winds coming up. That's going to be terrifying also. Yeah, and we know also that in many natural disasters, people lose loved ones. So, trying to draw distinction between the mental emotional spiritual and physical effects of those doesn't make any sense. What we're falling short on our mental emotional health resources for those people. And I'm sure we also would all appreciate those who have the least physically to lose. It may cost them the most because they have nothing left to recover with physically. And that has a mental emotional impact as well. So, David, Tina, thank you so much for talking about tough stuff and vulnerable experiences that we all have. Thanks for your thoughtfulness for your insight. Be well. Have a great weekend and take care. Thank you. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.