 Good afternoon and welcome to this session where we are going to be discussing electric vehicles the promising solution to decarbonize the This big part of the mobility system, which is automobiles and how to do this with an ecosystem mindset approach If we wanted to replace the global vehicle fleet from combustion and engine to Electric vehicles we would need three billion tons of lithium. This means 700 years to strike this lithium. This is the kind of challenge So this is not an easy challenge And it can only be done if we do this with a mentality of value chain, which is what we will propose to you this afternoon how to Tackle the emission reduction across the value chain from batteries to charging stations Energy greeds on the critical materials needed to manufacture them how to mobilize policies regulations incentives on circularity on recycling on materials instruction What kind of partnerships will be needed what kind of public private? Collaborations can foster this transformation This is what we will be discussing today in a session that is informed by the work of the circular cars Initiative, which is part of the world economics forum center for advanced manufacturing and supply chain And we're going to do this with a stella panel. Let me briefly introduce them To my left Brian Kemp governor of the state of Georgia. Welcome to his left. He'll demirate the as time CEO of Hydro Norway leading aluminum company Provider of materials therefore to her left robbing Jeng founder and CEO of CATL China one of the largest battery Manufacturers in the world and to his left last but not least Jim Rowan CEO of Volvo cars and also chair of the Alliance of CEO climate leaders so With this, let me Start this conversation with Jim. We're gonna start with you You're leading electric vehicle manufacturer What is it that keeps you up at night? What are the main challenges that you have top of your list a lot? How long do we have? We've got to be done in 45 minutes and everyone has to speak including the audience I will try I will try to be brief. So first of all, you need to start with the technology I'm an engineer and so I look at it from the point of physics and engineering and when we look at electrical propulsion It's clearly a better engineering solution to what we have right now. We had steam that was good for a while We moved to petrol and now we're moving full-scale towards electric vehicles There's less noise So if you look at a really good internal combustion engine roughly it's 35 percent efficient in terms of the energy put into the Movement that you get in the wheels if you take a really good propulsion system the latest system from Volvo for example 93% efficient you don't need to be a data scientist to figure out that that's a big data point So there's less noise there's less heat there's less vibration and there's zero tailpipe emissions So let's assume that it's the right technology now What keeps me up at night is actually the same thing that gets me out of bed in the morning and That is that we have a massive opportunity Ahead of us we have the technology, but we also have a massive challenge It's clear to me at least that we have a global climate crisis on our doorstep It's clear that we need to act now It's clear that the sheer scale and the complexity of the change as you mentioned will require academia It will require government. It will require financing and it will require industry to work together There's there's no way that we can do all of this on our own What's not clear to me is if we have the fortitude if we have the collective will and if we are prepared to make Choices that may affect the short-term results of our companies For the long-term benefit of society that for me is still not clear And not only are we out of time It's my belief that we are out of excuses and I don't think that history Will look towards us favorably if we don't act So we have three we have three areas where I think we need to look at we need to look at self We need suppliers and we need to look at society if I start with self. What are we doing as Volvo cars? So first of all we have we have stopped diesel We have stopped all our investment and internal combustion engines We have committed to be a hundred percent electric company by 2030 and be fifty percent electric by 2025 We've committed to be net zero by 2040 and we've committed that we will be a full scope three reduction of forty percent scope one two and three of forty percent by 2025 and 75 percent by 2030 We've also increased the targets on water water usage and set ourselves targets to get a higher biodiversity score That's the next thing on the agenda. We'll be biodiversity and we've moved to full 100% green debt All of our factories around the world all of our manufacturing factories around the world are already at 75% Climate neutral and will be at 100% climate neutral and all the factories by 2030 but That's self 98% like most companies 98% of our greenhouse emissions come from scope three So while we can look at herself and be and congratulate herself on good results so far unless we attack the supply piece It really doesn't matter too much And in that sense then we really need to make sure that we work with our suppliers This is not about beating up suppliers and asking them for cost reductions is about working together and finally bringing in legislation from government That's the society part Because we need green energy all this revolves around green energy. It's as simple as that We won't get green steel. We won't get green aluminium We won't get green energy to recharge our electric cars unless governments step up And I mean really step up and put the investments and to green infrastructure especially around around green energy and All of these things need to happen in parallel. We need to do the self of course We need to make sure we work with suppliers and we need to make sure that we work with governments and other legislators around the world to allow us to have the chance to get to where we need to be and Finally, I guess I would just say at the same time and I know there is a lot going on But we also have to need to lift our eyes Towards the next specter, which is going to be not just CO2 emissions But biodiversity degration and how we look to the oceans and other Areas of the world which is much more dependent on how we behave as companies towards biodiversity That's what keeps me up at night Wow, so essentially what I take from this first intervention is this idea that we have to organize this Transition and we have to look at the short the medium and the long With an idea that this is about a value chain Not just about you are at the end of the chain in a way Let me turn to one of your suppliers, which is Robin in a way You are the piece that needs to work for the car to Be driven. So what is it that what's top of your list? Let's say not when you go to bed, but when you get up. What's your main preoccupation? Looking for breakfast Thank you so much for giving us some business on this Immobility for Seattle is we definitely I think everything rely on in innovations, but definitely need to look for the technology innovation to solve I Think a major problems. For example, we're talking about lithium shortage So that's why we are developed a lot on the sodium batteries, which is Definitely it's not as good as the lithium battery, but it can be an affordable car. You can have 400 kilometers 500 kilometers with this sodium battery Which another another side is we call the business model changes. So Consumerses have not necessary to own the whole car on batteries. They can own the car without battery Then the battery is a leasing Okay Let me give an example in China. Some of the car makers already can make it a car as as low cost as 10,000 euro Electrical car without battery Then you're leasing a small battery for example 200 kilometers range in your daily community and In a weekend when you want to go go somewhere So you have leasing another bigger pack which can have enable you 600 kilometers range Now after two days, you can return that least barely to the stations Then you rental back to the 200 kilometers battery, which you really can save a lot So such kind of things that's too critical. One is You need people to build the sword stations Second, you need a people to own the battery asset as a leasing So when the interest rate goes down all these two is easier to be managed So I think a wave and another things is a recycle, you know Leasing recycle, nickel recycle, copper recycle, magnesium recycle, all I can do the recycle things together So I do agree with the GM about this We need to work together everywhere Not only the industry, right? We need a government. We need all the even consumers to think about how to make this Decarbonize As early as possible Yeah, thank you for this view on innovation, which is Extraordinary in this automobile sector. How do you I mean critical raw materials for you is essential? How do you ensure? How come we improve the resilience of access to the kind of critical raw materials that you will need For the manufacturing of the batteries. Yeah, we put the several segment off for the car for example for the Premier car like a war war, right? They usually need a Very high energy density or the batteries which we need a nickel, copper, or magnesium somewhere, but the Affordable car, at least in my own fast way is good enough That's the number one. Number two is we're still talking about technology is because most importantly is The hundred kilometer range what kind of energy consumption you need it for example energy efficiency So some of the people as good as 12 kilowatt hour Then you already can drive your hundred kilometers. Some people need a 15 or 16 kilowatt hour Compare these already 25 percent difference. That's one thing But the people when you buy a car usually you want to have a 600 or 700 kilometers range for your comfortable in that case You need a 7 times 12 is 84 7 times 16 is 104 or 2 In the limit space 102 battery pack. You need a higher energy density which is need nickel, copper is involved There is a you have double heat number one You have more 25 or 30 percent off the battery pack needed for 700 number two because the limit space you can only use NCM Nico cobalt mechanism system to make a battery which is another price high That's why 25 percent 1.2 to 5 times 1.2 fire you get a huge cause increase and also energy problem and also the resource problem Let's do the whole things that I want Ask or OEM to try to how to make sure energy consumption efficiency Is very important for future Thank you. Let me attend to you Hilde you are the supplier of the supplier So in a way, we're going down further down in the value chain. What's your so? How do you look at this? I mean, what's your main concern when looking at the contribution you will make to decarbonizing this value chain? I Thought you should ask me what That is that's a very long way of saying what keeps you up at night What really keeps me what I'm concerned about is Is the planet that we live in which is on fire and we see extreme weather conditions and There is a call for action. I'm concerned about my granddaughter living in on this planet if we don't react and we have to react now and And and the electrical the electrification of the transport sector is is one way or one one enabler But to go from fossil fuel car to an electrical vehicle It's only half the way because an electrical vehicle needs steel indeed aluminium. It needs a lot of material and Just steel and aluminium stands for 25% of the global CO2 emission in the world So so if we don't do anything that is not sustainable we're now going to change the whole the whole fleet of of of of vehicles and And that's where my company coming Hydro is today an aluminium and energy company We are one of the few companies in the world which which has the whole value chain In aluminium under one roof under our roof from box site where we mine in Brazil We are we are have the world's largest refinery of aluminium. We have smelters which are based on Renewable energy and we have the largest extrusion system in the world we have a global business 32,000 employees around the world and And what what what I'm excited about is that Partnership is the new leadership and When we see now how we how we Cooperate now in the first move a coalition for example and and and Jim you mentioned the scope 3 when when we see that automakers are setting their scope 3 targets They are looking for partners which can produce Low-carbon aluminium and that's where my company comes in because we we produce primary aluminium Based on renewable energy, which has the footprint of 85% lower than the industry average But what is the fastest way to low-carbon is through recycling and and that is so fantastic with aluminium It's that it can it can be recycled and recycled without losing its properties It's more or less urban mining because in that Window that sits there if it's produced in aluminium you have the box site you have the energy you only need five percent energy to recycle it and That is where we want to position ourselves to a meet the the the advanced and and and the and more and more customers are Looking at their footprint and and that's that's where we want to partner and and we are not satisfied where we are today We have a target to get to zero and Like Jim was saying what what you you are doing. We are chasing the co2 From the box site all the way to the finished products We have we are in the middle of the energy shift in in Brazil from Fuel oil and coal to ended to gas and electricity We are with our best top Technologies, we're trying to get the carbon out of the electrolysis process That's the technology that we have had for 130 years and we have to get we have to get that carbon out And then we are exploring hydrogen plasma and also bio biofuel To to take the the gas out of the cast houses so so we will do our part and But it is really exciting when we can team up with companies where we can work together Particularly on the recycling because because and and and what is exciting now is that the dialogue with the with the Most advanced customers happen at the CEO level So because it's it's not the procurement and sales people that talk we talking yet I talked with Ora Kalenius, which is a CEO of Mercedes I talked with Martin Lundstedt, which is the head of Volvo group and they said we set the tone in terms of sharing the same prospects of the world and and And sharing the same values And I agree with also what you said Jim that it's not only about co2 It's a bite biodiversity when we do mining we have to we have to as quickly as we take the box out We have to to rehabilitate and And and and we studied the B2 before we take the forest out to get to the box site And this and we put these seeds in plantation and two years after we put the seed in the ground to bring to bring the forest back So so because it's about climate. It's about nature And it's about being a good force in the local communities having the acceptance of what we're doing is also extremely important Thank you very much. So too big Threats in what you said Global business and this idea that this is a global level playing field that we're looking for and the second the idea of This circular economy that is to be exploited that can also contribute To the objective third you ended on leadership. So it's a good segue to the leader of a state Georgia governor you in a way are Basically interested in making sure that any of them if possible the three of them end up Manufacturing in your state More broadly you need to organize this Transition on the ground you are very much on the policy regulation Taxes on the incentives and planning for the transition. What keeps you up at night? Well, I think being in a little different situation than a OEM or one of the suppliers You know, we are trying to support in Georgia. We have an incredible business environment incredible infrastructure Ports rail airports, you know, just great places for for companies to be to produce Really anything in our state, but my goal is for Georgia to be the e-mobility capital of the world We're well on our way to doing that We have some great OEMs air with the Hyundai meta plant the Rivian plant He is adding an EV line to go with their existing line that's been in Georgia for for 20 years So we made a lot of promises to these companies telling them we can supply the workforce We had great sites and all these other things are mentioned But really what keeps me up is is being able to supply the workforce to do all of the different things that that these companies Want to do we're not trying to tell the companies what to do. We're trying to let them know that we have hard-working people We we believe in a lot of the things that they're doing is providing good paying jobs to our citizens And we want to support their corporate goals. And so to me, that's the big thing for us is making sure we have the workforce We've gotten, you know, just with since Rivian and Hyundai. We've got 40 supplier projects We've got battery pride projects in the state We've got air mobility project. And so we're trying to support those folks But we're also being forward-thinking of you know, how do we keep this circle going? So we've been very aggressive going after recyclers to be part of that that system to make sure that we're not having a dependency on one place in the world for rare earth minerals and other things but to really I think diversify the supply chain But it really is what is driving our Suppliers and that's why they chose Georgia because they know that they can come And really have a good business environment in our state find a good workforce and that they'll have a state government That supports them in that Thank you very much and thank you also for focusing on skill labor that at the end of the day is what needs to make all of this work I guess a common theme in all of you is this idea of partnerships and collaborations, right? So let me Jim go back to you. How do you what do you look for in a partnership? How do you see the partnership? Well for us we need to first of all We need to figure out we spend a lot of time on this from a strategy point of view. What do we? What do we build we see is a core competence that we want to retain and develop with inside with in Volvo And what do we buy so he's looking at buy versus build and buy buy I mean partnership That's probably a more accurate word So where do we build internally and where do we partnership and we look to that complementary effect? Well, we think it makes a lot of sense for us financially but also technically and there's at the end of the day It's got to be driven by the customer benefits So well and of course that goes to four things when we look at that in that framework first of all the strategic element Are the companies that we partner with are they strategically aligned with where we want to go? We're not asking them to do unnatural things. There's a strategic alignment between us and them. So that's good The second thing of course is the economics need to work So it's got to be economical for us to partnership The third thing is the operational part of that are they capable do they have good quality? Can they scale are they global and that's the third part of that quadrant? And then the last part and it's it's the part that's the most important, but it's the part that's quite often underplayed and that is trust Do we trust that they that those partners are aligned with our values or do we trust? That they will deliver the quality that the promise of do we trust that they will deliver the volumes that they promised and when we align those four things Into an area. We think we would be best to outsource that That's when we partner And so that's the framework by which we use what do we want to build and bring internally because we see it as a core competence This is the stuff that we're gonna partner Here are the four elements to that partnership framework when that works We go and then we can go big and we can go quickly because everything's fully aligned at that point in time I like this idea of trust which is also the theme of the world economic forum this year It's another dimension of the trust that is necessary, which is the trust in the partnerships that make industries Work and when you you look at it simple of course that makes sense But it's often underplayed and people get wrapped up quite frankly on the economics. Who's the cheapest? I mean honestly, that's that's shame on us But that often is the case and it was good to hear your point You say we deal now with the CEO's we don't deal with the procurement and that helps make sure that we make the longer term Decisions which are much more strategically oriented than tactically oriented But but you need to work at that because that's not been the framework until For a lot of companies, let's just say so Hilda. How would you do this in how do you do this? Actually in hydro this idea that what are the the principles or the values that you would look for in a partnership Yeah, I think that we What we're looking for here is a systemic shift because if you for just part of a value chain and and and and we can allocate all this capital to to chase the the CO2 to to To allocate capital for tests for pilots the plants to demonstrate the technologies and we we we're doing all this But there's there's not a pool in the market so so so that is what excites me on on the on what we Experience now in the first move a coalition because we have to develop a demand for and then we have to to match the The the the most advanced that that's always where you start the most advanced that set to set their themselves a target And they're looking for partners for example in in in terms of Working to get to zero we see that for example in recycled in the recycled content We we we we put together our technologies from us and from it could be Mercedes It could be Porsche it could be our partners and then they're looking at you if we if we increase the recycle content For example, what what would that what what would the influence be on the? Specification because in the past specification that was the Bible there were no way that the procurement guys could change But now they're looking for not only the The the lowest price, but they're looking to see how could they they reduce the embedded carbon footprint of the car and And then if we use more higher recycle content then perhaps you could could Could change the specification a little bit and then you get things going Which and that is a kind of a partnership where you you use your competencies another another Very important area that we are working on is is echo design or this sign Because in order to increase the recycling content We we work with them with the designers of the facades or in the building or The next design of a car and if that car could also be designed so that it's easily recyclable when when the life the end of life for the car because we want to have the The material back back after use and if it's Welded or if it's put together so that it's hard to sort and shred that makes the that then you reduce the value of the Of the of the of the aluminum that has been in use So that is also a way to to to to partner to see how we can get that car back it back after use so is this back-and-forth between The the the two parties or the multiple parties to adjust each other Robin. What's partnerships for you? okay, I think The whole things is for example after design for the cycle usually when you think about your whole designs You don't think a design for repairman Design for the school recycle design to safety design to cause design to such an ability All this kind of thing I think every every time I've been focused on ready suppliers innovation capability They bring us some of the very critical materials and they fund it for example They have a new additive for example have new castle materials which what together Different element put into together as a electrical chemistry system Then we have a chemical system innovation to improve the energy density improve the safety reduce the cause or all these kind of things number two is About the delivery same as what Jim say show number three Sure, it's a sustainability and the CO2 because we already have four fetch it is a zero carbon Fetch already in the world And we commit by year 2025 all key battery manufacturing Our fetch it all zero 2035 all the supply chain, so it's very tough That's why when we're selecting we're always asking suppliers where you allocate. Do you have green energy? so they get like a like a State governor say that Georgia they can provide the green energy that everyone be more happy because This guy's counting every CO2 and then we have We have a battery battery passport to trace every each battery kilowatt hour how many how many CO2 Consume when you make this battery so Digitalize you cannot hide you cannot whenever people sell this passport. Hmm. This guy the batteries one kilowatt battery You have 80 kilogram of the CO2 emission It's big shame, right? Oh what's danger maybe 40? Now how can I sell the battery to these guys right and the consumer? We should buckle Robin you are dirty battery It's ready. You know big trouble for us. That's why I'm looking for Sustainability is all of these very quick. Thank you Robin for burying in also this idea for the integrity of the exercise that it's not just Saying that you're gonna do it, but tracing it to make sure that it happens governor What does partnerships look like from where you sit? Well thinking talking to the companies that we're recruiting people that are looking to the state. I mean they're obviously Want to produce with clean energy? We're thankfully a state that's doing a lot of that despite not having a you know a lot of wind in our state We're not a wind production state But we are I think the tenth largest state in the country for solar now We have solar production facilities in the state and then we just completed One of our two new nuclear reactors so from a clean energy perspective and you know people looking to produce Especially heavy manufacturing with large loads data centers there, you know for AI and everything that's going on in that world right now We've done as much as anybody in the country first two new nuclear reactors in 30 years But we're gonna have to have more and I think most other states especially in the south where GDP is outpaced in the northeast now because of OEMs coming To our states we're gonna have to continue to do that. That's what these companies want They want green clean energy and so we're focused on working with partnerships with our Power companies and especially Georgia power in the southern company to be able to do that And it's a great marketing tool for our state from an economic development standpoint Thank you floor to the audience now for questions Please raise your hand and tell us who you are briefly and put your question to the panel Let me start with a gentleman over there and then we'll take this lady Hello, it's Charlie Nunn. I'm the CEO of Lloyd's banking group in the UK And I'm the biggest owner of EVs in the UK for which is why I'm here and First of all, thank you. It's been brilliant to hear this perspective Can I can ask a bit more about innovation in battery and maybe Ravi you talked about sodium which is great We have to take a view because 90% plus of vehicles require financing around the the next generation of technology and what it's going to do to residual values and There's a lot of discussion around solid-state technology and then the next as you said types of batteries Which will be lower cost. That's one question and then secondly and maybe a gym This leasing battery model that's emerged in China that I've seen What's the thought process because if for you and then for for the economies that would have to embrace that it's a radically different Model, is there any thought process for you? For example as an OEM thinking that might be a model that has traction In the West thank you Let me answer the first questions about the innovation of technology in battery field Actually, there's a two area Some areas people try to increase the energy density more and more today Let me give you a example about the curtain the technology in the NCM The pack the whole pack not not only sell the whole pack Usually we can up to 260 while per kilogram in a pack so If you have a car 1000 kilometers range, so you're almost required like a hundred forty hundred forty kilowatt hour battery pack So this is one, but if we can increase the battery We cannot say double if we double you're all almost Easier to assess so today we have some technology up to double No, I'm not double seventy percent eighty percent increase our energy density We call a condensed matter battery by Seattle, but now it's very Very expensive So we are focused on the aviation applications for the cars later on when the production How to say the scale up we can reduce that and the solid state battery now is people focusing a lot on that They usually is in the cell level the highest Estimation is around 600 while a per kilogram in cell cell level so when you're going to pack a probably you can get the better the best what is 400 while a per kilogram so Still a lot long way to go because to be the mass production to be cost effective to be the safety to be Whenever there's one thing another direction is the people talking about a long cycle life batteries So usually your car Charge one charge of 500 kilometers. Then you have 1000 charge Cycle you have enough because almost half million then for the Consumer it's not for Uber for Tessie. You maybe need a 1 million, right? But it's 500 500,000 kilometer for accumulate. It's good enough But now new business model may come we call a vehicle to great It means when you park your cars in the garage In the night time you charge the battery and also great can use your car as a better the energy storage So you'll only drive your car and the car will make money for you Then you require the everyday every cycle or two cycles several cycles It means the cycle life can be in large for example We have technology to make a cycle life 18,000 180,000 cycles so if you're on the battery on the car You're just put into your garage then probably make it your a lot of money's So for the charging so these two duration drive the technology innovations Thank You Jim Just come back on the the question in terms of battery leasing And let me back up a little bit. So if you look at how cars have been manufactured in the past It was very different from and we tend to use electrification as a proxy for a brand new Technology and how we how we produce cars. So in the past You would have distributed through the vehicle somewhere like a hundred and forty a hundred and fifty ECUs or EMUs So small boxes of basic electronics that control certain parts of the car Okay, when you move to a core computer architecture as we have done and of course electric as well It gives you a huge amount of benefits that that don't quite Bubble to the surface unless you pull them to the surface. Okay, so so I'm really pleased you asked a question We tend to talk about electrification as this proxy quite frankly electrification is the tip of the iceberg The much much more profound change that's going on in the industry right now is software Silicon connectivity and data Robin and like many people like Robin will continue to increase energy density They will continue to reduce cost They will continue to make batteries safer and we will continue to make progress in that But we understand that technology and we know how to hands to harness that we understand the the chemistry within that and we understand Emotors inverters and the battery management system that extracts the value from that Let's call that the electrical propulsion system So I'm going to move that to one side and say we have a pretty good deal on that right now And we're moving fast great now we get to core compute. That's that this is the tougher stuff This is where we as Automotive companies really need to invest much much deeper and that's what we've done at Volvo for the simple reason and get to your point On on battery leasing when you go to core computer architecture, I know everything that's happening in that car And our next model when that first car rolls off the production line a digital twin is born in the Volvo cloud Okay, we're not doing this yet. This will happen in our next our next day our next production cycle When that that digital twin is born in the cloud, I see everything I know what that car has been I know when it's been driven and off. It's been overcharged. They're undercharged on the on the battery side I know if it's been repaired if it's been repaired using a blockchain technology with genuine Volvo parts That means that when you come to sell that car, which is really a question in terms of residual value When you come to sell that car, I can sit down and say hey, you're gonna buy this car Okay, let's have a look I'll look at the digital twin which we would share with their dealership network And they can see everything that that car has done the amount of miles It's done when it's been serviced when it's not being serviced We threw our software algorithms can determine how good that battery still is we call it battery passport And the battery passport then allows us to say you want to buy that we've all will guarantee that battery for another 10 years So for us I want to keep the battery attached Because if the batteries attached to your Volvo car, I know everything it's done When you start leasing off batteries and that may work for some companies I don't see it working for us quite frankly, but I see it may be working for other companies But for us, I want the integrity of the vehicle to include the battery because it's the electrical propulsion system It's one of the most important ingredients of the car Just one last point on something that Robin brought bi-directional charging in the new x90 We put in bi-directional charging as standard So we can know we can do v2v vehicle to vehicle v2h vehicle to home and v2g vehicle to grid you think about it By 2030 Volvo on its own will have somewhere in the region of 200 gigawatts of power on the road Most of it comes home at night cars generally are used 85% the time or sorry unused 85% the time That is a latency of energy Quite frankly that we need to connect into the grid if we're gonna if we're gonna have the meaningful difference It's wasted if we don't do that Then you can use that during the daytime when the when the prices are high when everybody comes home from work Between 5 and 10 in the evening energy prices are high the grid gets overloaded you plug in You use your car battery at nighttime bomb you bring it down and you use the energy from the grid at an off-peak price We need to push governments to say if you want to do an electric car You need to put in bi-directional energy or you don't get a license I would make it part of the homologation quite frankly It's a technology that nobody owns is a technology that's available to everybody and it's the technology that we should use Secondarily, I would also ask government to see if I do plug in my car to the grid and I make money from that Let's make it tax-free Governor lots of ideas here And then and then we give the tax-free money to the companies, right? I don't think that mask is gonna work So my name is Lisa from China. I'm the social innovator awardee of 2024 by SWAT Foundation WF so my question is to Jim and Robin Now we were discussing a lot about the batteries Decapitulation by upstream and downstream Since I'm working for the people who is a steel 800 million people in the darkness without any electricity electricity supply have you ever think of instead of a recycle your batteries, but reuse refurbished Refurbished refurbished the batteries and to empower the people who is a steel in the development countries and a developer or end up privileged Situations powered them by a lower cost of access of energy by solar or by the storage of the battery Thank you. Thank you. Oh Roman's a PhD, so I'm gonna leave Yeah, I think that's a very good question on that. We use the battery properly today, so we have some difficulty on that. When you're setting the car to the people, then the people own the whole car, according to law, right? Not only the car body, but also on the battery. So we have to ask them, please, give the battery to me, for refurbishment to reuse or to recycle. Consumers are also very smart. They say, oh, today lithium is 30, you know, it's a very high dollar. They can calculate how many lithium can be extracted from the battery. Then he talked to Mr. Robin, this battery was 10,000, let me be, or 1,000 US dollars. Then tomorrow, when the lithium goes up, they say, no, no, no, I need to increase the setting price to 1,200. So such kind of things is for us as a technology company, the only problem is not how we can refurbish that. It's easier how we can get the battery to my factory to do the refurbishment. As a matter of fact, the last year we do the recycle is 100,000 tons waste battery in China, and then we make 13,000 tons of lithium carbonate reuse in the battery. So economically, it's good. But how can we get the government support to delay the sale? Or this part of the battery, please, you do the refurbishment by the technology company, then send it to the underdevelopment people to help them to make electricity. This is a rely on the government side. So we have just time for a very, sorry. Really quickly on the energy piece. So LFP technology, which is a great technology, especially if you're going to use the battery for storage. So more and more, we're starting to see LFP come into mainstream car manufacture, which is great. But whether you use new batteries or whether you use recycled batteries, I think one of the big opportunities that we have as car manufacturers, we have access to large scale battery production. And we can get that at reasonable cost. Recently at Volvo cars, we just set up a new business called Volvo energy solutions. And the purpose of that company is to take the knowledge, is to take the supply chain, is to take the cost of benefits that we get through buying hundreds of millions of batteries and bring that to static storage. So we now have products whereby you can buy 250 gigawatts, 500, 750, or 1 gig. And that's thinking that it looks like a shipping container. And it's then got static storage. So rather than running on a diesel generator, it allows you to do the same. So places in the world that have access to, let's say, solar, but they don't then have the access to store that solar, that's a fantastic opportunity for some of the developing nations around the world to actually harness the natural resources that they've got in solar and then have somewhere that can store that. It's great for schools, it's great for backups for hospitals and that stuff. So we're bullish about being able to take an adjacent business model, if you like, using the core technologies that we've developed over a number of years with a number of different partners. Well, unfortunately, we've come to the end of this very, very rich and interesting session. I see a few hands. I think you can approach the panelists offline now. Let me tell you that the results of this conversation, which has shown the many different angles that this discussion brings to the table, will inform the work of the World Economics Forum Center for Advanced Manufacturing and Supply Chain within the scope of the IndustryNet Zero Accelerator Initiative. So I guess please contribute to this initiative and watch this space, which has an incredible promise. Thank you and a big applause to our panelists. Thank you.