 Coming up on DTNS will Snap or Apple lead the way into the metaverse? Well, spoiler, it won't be Snapple. Plus, progress in combating bias in large language models and what happened to AWS? This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, December 8th, 2021, in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. In Salt Lake City, I'm Scott Johnson. And I'm Roger Chang. The show is pretty soon. There is a longer version of this show where we expand into longer topics and other topics called Good Day Internet. You can get that at Patreon.com slash DTNS. Big thanks to our top patrons, including Daniel Dorado, John Atwood, and Pat. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Seems like it was just yesterday when we wondered what would happen. Now it's happened. Roku and Google agreed to a multi-year extension to distribute both YouTube and YouTube TV on Roku's platform. Roku's deal with Google was set to expire this month with the YouTube TV app removed from the Roku store back in April. It literally was yesterday that we're like, you know, this is coming. And hey, I was actually surprised. I thought they would like go up past the clock a couple of days, but they didn't. Good for them. Facebook launched a new professional mode for profiles, which lets profiles access the Reels Play bonus program to monetize content. Program had only been available to pages on Facebook before now. These profiles will also get access to post and audience analysts, just like a page would. Professional mode will be invitation only at launch. Sonos announced a new design for a disassembly program as part of a larger effort to make its products last longer and use less energy. The program will guide development on all new speakers starting in 2023, but the company planning to use fasteners instead of adhesives to make consumer repair easier. It's unclear if this will include access to repair parts and manuals. Look at that right to repair. Getting fashionable. Twitter began testing a new system for users to report potentially policy violating tweets. The system no longer asks which policy you think the tweet violates. Instead, it asks for general information about the tweet. The system will then suggest a rule that it might be breaking with the user able to accept or deny that suggestion. Twitter hopes by analyzing this data it can see which tweets fall into gray areas in its policies. The U.S. FAA has outlined flight restrictions to take place January 5th to mitigate potential interference from 5G service launching in a new part of the spectrum. U.S. carriers are launching 5G service in what's called the C-band, which the FAA worries could interfere with some systems used in poor weather landings like Raydalt, which shows how close the plan is to the ground. The new service and new restrictions were delayed from December to January 5th while the telecoms and FAA work together on another mitigation strategy. The restrictions mean that some flights wouldn't be allowed to land in poor weather at certain airports near C-band 5G service. For more on this topic, see our episode of Know a Little More on 5G Interference in Airplane Systems. All right, let's talk a little bit about the actual metaverse. Who the companies are that might actually bring you something that you would call a metaverse instead of just talking about it? Analyst Ming-Chi Kuo, who has an excellent record on predicting what Apple will release, has released his latest guess at what's coming from Apple. He does think Airpods Pro will come Q4 next year. That would be the first updates to the Pro since 2019. They might look a little like the Beats Fit Pro. That's not part of the metaverse though. Kuo also believes Apple will release a mixed reality headset in 2022 with production starting in Q4 and is already working on the follow-up device that would come out in 2024. The first version of an Apple mixed reality headset would reportedly weigh somewhere between 300 and 400 grams, which is a little bit lighter than the Quest 2, which weighs 500 grams. Of course, everybody's waiting for Apple to enter the metaverse with a device and they're not wrong that when they do it will boost things as Apple does when it introduces a new product line. The conventional wisdom though that it's a race between Apple Microsoft, which is now in collaboration with Samsung on a HoloLens. That's coming in 2024. You'll be able to get a Samsung Microsoft HoloLens at some point. Meta, of course, which won't shut up about it. Vuzix is another one that you may not have heard as much about. On the platform side, Roblox Epic Niantic is committed and there's a handful of newcomers like Decentraland, for instance. But the verges Casey Newton through his own platform newsletter has an interesting look at Snap. That's a Snapchat, but the company Snap and how the company is slowly building a metaverse-ready approach without ever using that word. Newton notes that Snap is quote, steadily improving its hardware every year and attracting developers by giving away that hardware while offering them ways to profit from it. So sure, you can laugh about spectacles, but spectacles have been slowly getting better and better and more and more developers have been using them to be like, well, that's kind of a cool thing. Let me try that. Snap, in fact, has signed up 250,000 people to create more than two and a half million augmented reality effects. More than 300 of those people have gotten one billion or more views on their Snapchat lenses and Snapchat lenses are viewed six billion times a day. Now granted, a lot of those lenses just, you know, make it look like a rabbit or something, but slowly they're getting more augmented reality like more practical. There's one that can identify plants or trees. There's one that's being used to pop up a 3D menu from a QR code, which shows pictures of the food available for order instead of just that flat page that won't quite load on your phone. It may be that Snap stealthily emerges on both the hardware and software side of things by engaging developers as it's been doing now for years and just slowly iterating the hardware until one day you're like, Hey, that's actually pretty good. Yeah, it feels like they're, they're closer to rubber meets the road to me. If I, if I was to categorize what they're doing versus everybody else, I mean, they're categorized or they're, they're described in this article as sidestepping the word and at sidestepping all of the hype around metaverse and are actually just working on their thing. And after reading through that, it, it occurs to me that they're doing practical stuff, which I think is good. I think that's actually really smart. It's, it's fun to talk about these imaginary experiences you're going to have with all your virtual friends and virtual space doing virtual things. And a lot of the quote unquote metaverse will probably end up being like that. But will it look like that Zuckerberg presentation? I'm almost a hundred percent sure that it won't look like that. And I know they're just doing examples and, you know, showing whatever, and this is what you do for a presentation. But in practicality, whatever I want, I would love to be able to look at a menu and have that menu pop up with images of that food, whether it be, you know, beautiful 3d renders or otherwise, and let me sort of explore what I'm going to be ordering. Like that alone sounds more interesting than most of the sort of pie in the sky ideas you hear from everybody else. It does. I tend to forget that Snap is doing so much work behind the scenes because I'm not really much of a Snapchat user, but Snap has been so much more than Snapchat for many years now. I had a friend who worked there and I had the first iteration of Spectacles. I was kind of like, I wonder where this is going to go? It was pretty interesting. I actually lived right down the street from the Snap headquarters at the time. So it felt a little bit bigger. And I think it's just because of my proximity, my physical proximity to a lot of people who worked there. But ever since then, I've sort of wondered, you know, they keep making new versions of Spectacles, and it gets press, and then no one seems to wear them that I know of. And then I never hear about it again until the next version. In fact, the latest version of Spectacles just got a write up. I don't remember which publication wrote it up and said, really cool, but they overheat, battery life is still crappy. These are the things that Snap still has to deal with in order for developers to be excited enough to want to build applications based on this technology. But yeah, it's a little bit of a sleeper wave. Yeah, and I think Snap is fine with that. They're like, yeah, we don't expect yet to have huge uptake out there in the world. What we do want is people making 250,000 people creating two and a half million AR effects. You know, we want to see that number go up. And every iteration in our hardware hopefully helps because, yeah, 30 minute battery life, not good for a consumer, maybe good enough for a developer who's just trying something out, just wants to experiment. Jahandar in our chat room points out that isn't the quest to a significant step towards the metaverse. And I would argue, yes, yes, Jahandar, you're absolutely right. That said, whenever Apple does something, it doesn't matter what's legitimate. I mean, the Ray-Ban Wayfarers are legitimate step towards the metaverse as much as anything else. But there's just something about Apple. When Apple does it, everyone pays attention for good or ill. You can rail against why, why, why do people do it? It's just a fact that people will. And if Apple comes out with a product, you know, there are sober comparisons that we will make to like, well, how does this compare to the Wayfarer? How is it compared to the quest to if and when it comes out? But there will also be people who decide, oh, well, Apple has done it. Now it's here. And it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it'll, it'll, it will cause things to snowball when they do it. Fitness Plus. Here you hear you me. Fitness Plus. Once the, that AR headset comes out is going to be a whole different thing. You're here first folks. Don't care about your watches anymore. Well, let's move over to Amazon who has no such headset. Maybe they do in the works. Who knows? Amazon launched the Alexa Together subscription available for $19.99 a month or $199 a year. It's an expansion on Amazon's existing product, Alexa care club rather and packages. This was the product Amazon announced earlier this year that helps elderly or special needs family members who are living on their own with things like an emergency helpline, fall detection response, and remote assist for, for settings, that sort of thing. Here's an example. Okay. We got an elderly person call for help. If they need emergency assistance, a trained agent on the other end can dispatch the police, the fire department on the, or the ambulance into their location. Then the system can tap into third party devices from assistive technology services, ATS, or they're, they're cares a wall-mounted sensor that can note when a person has fallen or a fall has happened. Sky angel care by ATS is a fault detection pendant that aging customers can wear around their neck. Remote assist lets family members manage the settings or manage settings on the elderly members device like their echo or what have you, like adding reminders or contacts or calls or for calls and messages, managing shopping lists, linking to music services, that kind of thing. The activity feed will send alerts to family members when say uncle Bob, I have an uncle Bob, he might be in the situation, has had his first interaction with the connected smart home device, which doesn't necessarily mean everything is okay, but it will also send alerts if there has been no activity. If we haven't heard from Bob in a couple of months, this would be maybe days or weeks. I don't want to say months. Why did I say months? I love my uncle Bob. I'm sure he's fine. Anyway, Amazon's offering a six month free trial and existing care hub customers will get a free year of Alexa together starting now until December 7th, 2022. Amazon says it's working on support for multiple caregivers beyond family like friends and neighbors. The only thing I would tack onto this is the one thing they're missing here is they don't have the two backups that your smartphone has, that being battery and internet. So if your Echo dies and nobody can use it to take care of this problem, because the power's out, you're stuffed. If you have it happen with your internet going out, you're equally stuffed. Your phone has two sets of backups for that. If it's plugged in, but there's no power, you still got battery, and you have internet because you got 5G when the internet's down or the Wi-Fi's down. Otherwise, I think this is great anytime we do anything to help the aging part of our population or those in need is good in my book. Yeah. I think this is meant to be filling in a gap. There are, and Amazon even makes these, along with lots of other companies, there are medical grade versions of this that do have like cellular services built in and battery backups and everything for critical cases where it's like, oh no, you need to be able to use this. I think this is, they're not quite in a serious situation where insurance will cover something, but we just want to keep an eye on them, right? We want to know, like, man, it's weird. Usually every morning I could look at the activity feed and Uncle Bob has checked the weather and he hasn't checked the weather this morning. Maybe I'll just give him a call and make sure everything's okay. That kind of thing. Yeah. It's a lot more, it's a lot better than, than life, not that, listen, life alert fans, you guys are awesome. Keep on keeping on. But it's always been this old joke of like, I've fallen and I can't get up and you gotta hit the little button and talk to them. And that's great and all, but I think these just gives them so many more layers. What expands on that? You can, the pendants that you were describing is basically life alert, right? So it's the same kind of thing, but with more features. I like the idea that you could, if you're interested as a family, you can get a six-month trial. That's a nice chunk of time. And if afterwards it doesn't seem like it's exactly the right solution or enough or, you know, because the whole idea is this person who needs to be monitored is still by themselves. They're not in assisted living. They're not living with the family. No family is living with them. Can that work? It's not always going to work. This is not a solution for, for all situations. But I think, I think for some folks it could be at least enough peace of mind to work and be worth the price. Well said. It really is about peace of mind. Hey, if you'd like to give us a piece of your mind, here's our email address, feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. All right. We don't usually cover outages on DTNS because they're usually really specific and often resolved by the time that most people would hear us talk about it anyway. The exceptions are when they impact a large number of people in services or they're particularly interesting in their technical explanation. An example of the second case was the Facebook outage on October 4th. Remember the outage? It was caused by malformed update to how Facebook handles its IP routes. Tuesday, there was an AWS outage that had wide-ranging and sometimes intermittent or unexpected effects. So it got a lot of attention. Amazon hasn't made a clear explanation yet of what caused it, but here's some of what happened and at least what we know so far. People first noticed the problems around 10.45 a.m. Eastern and stretched into the evening. Many big sites including Facebook, Netflix, Disney, et cetera, rely on AWS, so they were affected in varying ways. Amazon's own systems also seem to have been affected with reports of the Flex and A-Z apps which are used to manage deliveries, Seller Central used for managing customer orders, and the Dolphin app used for time tracking, all being down. This is consistent with reports of motionless warehouse robots and idle delivery vans and loads of hilarious quips from people getting paid over time to do very little or nothing at all. Multiple SIST admins reported errors connected to the AWS Management Console that connects access to servers for companies that use AWS. Amazon's official status page noted an impact to the US East One region and attributed it to, quote, an impairment of several network devices there. Amazon was encouraging a workaround to log into consoles other than US East One. If the problem was specific to that data center in Virginia, it would explain some of the varying effects like service just being a little slower. Some of that would be simply knock on effects as loads were shifted to other data centers. The top five cloud service providers, that's Amazon, Microsoft, Alibaba, Google, and Huawei hold 80% of the market. Amazon is still the largest with about half of that market. This has caused many companies to embrace a hybrid cloud approach so that they're not relying on one provider for everything. Even if that provider is really great, these things happen. This will obviously impact Amazon's holiday shipping, but we could guess they'll recover. You won't notice much effect, if any, within a couple of days. Might have just been a big old glitch, just like the weather. Sometimes AWS has a bad day and we all run for cover, bad in some circumstances, but you deal and you get on with your life or our cloud providers getting too big to fail. Yeah, I had a grocery delivery from Amazon. I haven't ordered groceries on Amazon in more than a month and I made the mistake of ordering it for yesterday and it got canceled because they were like, it never got packed. It just never made it into the system because by the time they would have started packing it, they had this outage. Granted, Amazon's real good at logistics. If anybody can bounce back quickly from this, it's going to be Amazon. I'm not expecting a whole lot of disarray, but it did have a noticeable effect. That noticeable effect came in and out. We were joking at the beginning of the stream yesterday when we stream live on Twitch like, hey, Amazon owns Twitch. Are we even going to be able to stream? Oh, look, we can. So it was variable. I would not look at 49% and say, gosh, that's too much. You need to legislate against it, but I would look at this and I would think I need to have training about how to work around this because US East 1 is the default. It is a big data center and there were reportedly ways that sites could have gone to other consoles, logged into consoles in other regions and got around this faster, but they didn't think about it fast enough. So there's training and then there's just hybridization like you talked about, Sarah, just having failover systems that are like, okay, we're also on Azure or we're also on Oracle or, you know, we're somewhere else where we can, if one of our cloud providers does have a problem, we can switch over to that. I mean, granted, this stuff doesn't happen very often, but they are essential to the operating of the internet and the internet is more and more essential to the operating of society. You're basically just, it's the age old, too many eggs in one basket and the logic says there has to be some way of getting around this or we got to work on better ways of doing it. And maybe it's multiple providers. A lot of us in the sort of broadcasting world on the internet, we have a couple of ISPs for the same reason. We can't rely on one to always be up and there's always a backup in case it's redundancy, which is funny and ironic because AWS, its entire design is redundancy. It's all about having not worrying about a centralized space for your stuff. It's all virtualized. And the fact that that's true up until you hit the ceiling of we are AWS and can't go any further than that for any other kind of redundancy is starting to show more than ever. So, so yeah, you can't, you know, you can, you can, you can go ahead and stuff, you know, 15 people in the same car and hope it gets to Vegas, but I don't know. I'd like a backup truck or a van, please. I'm trying to make a good comparison, but I can't. Yeah, yeah. No, every trip to Vegas needs to have one person alone in a separate car. It's the only way you're going to get out. We've learned anything from the AWS outage yesterday. No, no, I get where you're going with that. Like, yeah, it's not all your eggs in one basket. Not all your, not all your people in one car, et cetera. Right. Right. One of the things I love to do on daily tech news show is keep us all up to date on the latest terms and the latest trends in technology, the real ones, not, not the hashtags that are trending that day, but things like large language models or LLMs. That is the word for the kind of system that Open AI's GPT-3 is. They are used frequently now for everything from improving Google search results to powering neighbors, shopping recommendations, a whole lot of other stuff. And while they are impressive, they also have limits, including failing tests of logical reasoning, as well as replicating the biases and bad language found in their inputs. It's one thing to do some predictive tests, text, and you can decide whether you want to follow or not. It's another thing to say, let's have the LLM write the news and it starts making things up because it fits the syntax, but it doesn't do any fact checking. Well, Alphabet's DeepMind published three papers on the topic this week. In one, DeepMind talked about building a language model with 280 billion parameters named Gopher. Kind of a throwback name on the internet. I kind of like that. If you don't know, parameters are a shortcut to estimating a model's power. Basically, the more parameters, the more powerful. GPT-3 has 175 billion parameters. Microsoft Nvidia's Experimental Megatron that they just announced earlier this year has 530 billion. Gopher's right there in between with 280 billion. DeepMind studied how much Gopher improved by getting larger. They found that sentiment analysis and summarization capabilities definitely got better. But problems like bias, stereotyping, and misinformation, in other words, just making up stuff, were not improved as it got larger. To solve those problems, DeepMind believes the models need additional training from actual humans to kind of spot when this is happening and try to figure out why the model is doing that. DeepMind also though understands that sizes and everything and released Retro, which stands for Retrieval Enhanced Transformer. This model only has 7 billion parameters, but DeepMind claims it can outperform neural networks that are 25 times as big, including Gopher. To be good, while being that small, Retro uses an external database. So the model is trained on creating sentences, but the database has 2 trillion passages of text that Retro can compare what it was going to come up with and go, well, wait a minute, that's better. I'll use that instead. It also searches the database for refinements, making that predictive text better. A look up system like that is not new. It's been done with other kinds of models, but it's new to LLMs. DeepMind says Retro matched Gopher on most tasks, even though it was so much smaller in parameters, and DeepMind believes it might be easier to eliminate bias from Retro because you can just go into the database and take it out when you find it, rather than having to retrain the model and try to figure out why it came up with it. Because it's smaller, right? You have more control over that overall database. It's because the database is separate, right? It's smaller because it's not trying to come up with every single word. It can draw on the database the way we look things up on Google, right? We look up something up on Google to be like, how do you spell that? How do you say that? What's the fact? And that's what it's doing. It's seven billion parameters, only kind of tell it how to construct sentences. It can then go to the database to be like, ah, yeah, okay. That's what I was trying to say. Let me use that, just like we do. Yeah. And now we have, we can use Gopher in its proper context and not as the old search engine that we used to use in the early 90s. So there you go. I did like Gopher. I did too. It was all right. I end on loveboat. Well, I don't know when anybody bought a cool pair of sneaks lately, but let's say you're a bit of a sneakerhead. Are you just finding some sneakers on eBay, right? You think they might be worth buying? They look really cool. They're kind of retro. They're hard to get. You want to make sure they're totally right though. eBay wants to help with a new app called eBay 3D TrueView created in partnership with Game Engine Developer Unity. 3D TrueView lets a potential buyer with, you know, some money. Rotate the image around at all angles, all 360, also zoom in. So you get a pretty realistic idea of what you're buying. In order to produce the effect, a seller first gets walked through scanning the sneakers with a mobile device, taking video from multiple angles. Then it kind of gets stitched together. And then eBay says it's processing that data with AI. It doesn't really elaborate on that, but AI in some form to create a photorealistic 3D image of the item. And then the interested buyer can view it in eBay's Android or iOS app. So as a buyer, you don't actually need this eBay 3D TrueView app that's for the seller to use to make this effect. Then you just need the eBay mobile app in order to view it. If this sounds familiar to you, popular reseller StockX also has a 3D viewer. It lets you rotate shoes in 3D, but only on one plane. So this is a little bit cooler than that. For now, only select sneaker sellers are going to get access to the new eBay feature that's starting this month, although the company says it plans for a wider rollout next year. So I know there's a couple of sneaker heads out there in the audience. And one of you or two of you are very, very excited about the fact that you get a closer look with this stuff using the Unity Engine, Scott. But that's awesome. I was just going to say, and this kind of goes with our AR, you know, mixed reality stuff conversation earlier and why SNAP seems to have a little bit of a side advantage. These kinds of things are what are interesting and practical to me. And I wanted to extend everything, not just shoes. Let me zoom in high resolution, sort of get real Nick picky about the details on a car, on any thing you think of any object and letting me pinch and zoom around that space, even if it's on phones and tablets for now. That's awesome. So I'm actually all for this. Like there's nothing new in terms of like, Oh, a 3d version of a thing I might buy. The difference here is, is fidelity. And you can really get in there to the, to the nitty gritty and sinker heads are the perfect place for this. Cause they love that stuff. Where's the stitching? How does the pattern end? What's going on in the back of the shoe? Let me see the tread again. Let me get real close. Like this is a perfect place for it. And I think it extends to all kinds of products. And that's how metaverse shops can work. You can have a metaverse shop for sneakers where you buy physical sneakers that'll get shipped to you, but you can buy them in a virtual world because this is laying the groundwork for, I will have all the details about what that sneaker will, will look like before. And tiny, tiny little side note. Unity engine is known for its scalability. And I, when I mean, I mean actual like scaling technology where you're dealing with textures that go from really small to really big and having to sort of, you know, work through that process. Unity is a, an excellent engine for that. So I think that's also the right path to be on. You know, what else is excellent are the people who email us things that land in our mailbag. Indeed. KV from dark and chilly Maryland. Sorry, KV. I hope you turn a light on or something. KV says, following up on the discussion about the fashion trend to go with wired headphones. Yeah, we talked about this yesterday. KV says, as a wireless pixel buds user, I've found myself gradually reverting back to wired or BT buds with a connecting wire, but it was less for fashion and more for function. I've regularly encountered situations where I've had to temporarily remove one or both earbuds talking to retail or service staff or listening for announcements or where I'm going to drive wires feel convenient. I can pop up a bud, hangs off my neck and shoulders securely in the same scenarios with wireless buds. I'm awkwardly using a hand to hold them or keep popping the buds back in and out of the case pocket. I hope you and I don't drop them and lose them in the process. I don't know if anybody else has this issue or if they have more elegant ways to handle those situations with wireless buds. Yeah. I mean, the idea is you're just supposed to leave them in, but it seems kind of rude because they're not totally invisible. And also I'm like, like on an airplane, I have a hard time hearing sometimes if I just have them in, even if there's no audio playing through. So I have a hard time hearing anything. And even my job is have kind of like, well, it's noise canceling as much as in ear earbuds can have. But even I toggle that off when I'm out on a jog because I want to hear the world around me. And even so, it's like, I mean, they're in my ears. I can't hear very well. We also got an email from doctor who wrote I wanted to chime in as a teacher with a plethora of students who play Roblox when you mentioned Roblox saying experiences instead of games. It made me realize that the language does not transfer to kids. Very often I have a kid saying there's this game in Roblox and I cannot recall one saying there's this experience in Roblox. If I were making the decision on what's a game versus not a game, I'd go with what the masses call it. It's also 100% games. I mean, I'm sorry, Roblox can say whatever they want. That is the most dumb PR speaker ever heard. It is 100% a collection of games. It's not about whether it's a game or not in your eyes. It's about whether this qualifies as a game the way Apple prohibits you from redistributing it. That's true, I guess. I mean, every game's an experience, but is every experience a game, you know, we can get into the philosophical like discussion about all of that, but, but having spent enough time around Roblox to try to understand it and see the appeal, that's 100% games wall to wall. That's all it is everywhere. Like all Roblox otherwise kids wouldn't be there. They're not going to go. They don't go for experiences. They go for game gamified experiences and that's what they stay for. If it was just, ooh, look at the pretty tree. That's an experience, but they're not hanging around for that. They're out of there. Anyway, I may seem passionate about that, but Roblox is crazy, man. There's some stuff going on over there. Well, if you have passion, you know, even 50% of Scott Johnson's passion, we would like to hear about it. Send us an email with your thoughts and get it off your chest. Feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We also want to thank a few brand new bosses, Tyler LaTour, Adam Burke, Evan Holguin, all just started back in Oslo on Patreon. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you, Adam. And thank you, Evan. Yay! You guys are the best. No, seriously, I'm kind of shocked that we're on this big run with new bosses. Keep coming. You've been on the outside looking in. You got some new Patreon merch in there. This is the time. This is the time. We want to thank you. We also want to thank Scott Johnson. It's Wednesday. It's Scott Day and it's been fun as usual. Scott, what have you been up to? Well, here on National Scott Day, we like to remind folks that they want to find more of my stuff. They can. It's super easy. Assuming AWS doesn't crap out on it. You can go find me at frogpants.com. All the shows, the artwork, everything I'm up to is there. And if you're looking to find me in a more personal way, you can find me on Twitter. Find me at Scott Johnson. Excellent. Well, you can find us live Monday through Friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC. Find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live. We'd love to have you join us live. If, if, if you can, we'll be back tomorrow doing it all again with Justin Rubber. Yeah, talk to you that day. Hope you have enjoyed this program.