 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always, but very soon, but not yet because he's still late But we decided to start without him as Tom. He'll be here in a minute. Don't worry, but also joining us this week The reigning king of longest show although it won't be one tonight. We're gonna keep this contained people contained It's mr. Tyler Emerson scrubbing wells. How you doing buddy? It's good to have you back on So we're gonna talk about fixing Sylvaneth tonight when it when you and I kind of I think we're originally gonna get together a Little while back and then we kind of move schedules a little bit But it was funny too because I was like I sort of texted you earlier and was like wait What were we talking about again? And you were like well you said we're gonna fix trees of course. Yes, we're gonna fix trees That's exactly what I want to do especially since I got a couple games in against Sylvaneth this last weekend, so They're at top of mind for me That's indeed indeed well Tom can tell you more about the pleasure of that All I know is all I all I know about nine sides was chopping lumber, so that was all that happened on that side So at any rate we're gonna get to all that but first we'll do a little news. Oh It said okay hold on somebody said you're muted. Why are you muted? Yeah, you're not hold on yep, I can't hear you. I'm gonna fix it real quick. I'll fix it. Hold on Sorry everybody should be that one to go ahead and talk Nope, it's not that one I'll find it. It's not you. It's it's me. All right. Go ahead and talk One of these has to be the right one Okay, talk again. Nope still nothing Sorry folks. I apologize. I looked at my own sound and didn't look at how would this not be coming through? Nope still nothing right go ahead and say something. Hey, can we not hear you? No, it's not you. I know it's not you all right We're just gonna go through Let's do this. Just talk about trees for a second There it is we got your audio working just as Tom joins Okay All right, everybody I apologize for that was really funny like we couldn't get Tyler sound working so By the way in other news events. Yes That didn't get a ban. No. Yeah, Tivodars crusade. Yeah, I know yeah, yeah, I Pre-emptively picked that bad boy up. Sure. That was it. It's a great legacy card Anyway All right. So Tom's here great. Okay. All right. Sorry everybody for the confusion there off the rip Boy, oh boy. What a night. It's been okay. So at any rate Are we live? Yeah. Yes. We're live Sorry, sorry everybody. Yes. Tom is playing magic again. So, you know, there you go. You can all You can all chastise him in the comments for that at any rate Let's let's get into some news. There's not a lot the rumor engines up It's a 40k thing It's a thing Looks like a chaosy power equal thing Okay All right next I don't care enough about it Like I just don't know what to say. Okay. Um next Nova cancelled Officially, yeah Yeah, it was probably the inevitability but let's face it. We're all sad about it. Nonetheless, like it's it's a shame. It really is I Was very much hoping that it was going to happen somehow hope against hope But here we are so 2021 2020 is officially the lost year of Of Conventions Did you hear that thumping? Sorry? Oh, yeah, it's upstairs It's your children not you tapping. Okay, that's fine There's gonna be a little time great episode I can tell already Yeah Other news. Yeah. No was cancelled. It's a shame There we are nothing else to say about it. I understand where they made the call 2021 yay back with everything in 2021. Let's let's go for it. Okay Warhammer obviously games workshop put out a nice statement. I thought that was really good in regards to sort of Current world situation that's going on basically saying the Warhammer is for everyone I thought it was a really that was a really good statement So I liked it a lot and I was glad to see them publish it. So I thought that was real cool and It was a nice easy way to Put a flag in the ground for them and say that, you know We welcome everybody. Please come play our game in a positive way great wonderful Yeah, I mean so Other than that the important part is that there is no AOS news None and and I have a theory about that Okay So here's my theory. I Don't think we're gonna get anything AOS For a while. I think we're steaming through 40k all the way to All the way to the release of ninth age That's certainly what it feels like. Yeah, I don't know about that. I mean, all right. Well, tell me your theory Tom I am hoping against hope That we will have We will get a pre-order on the 19th Like so, let me say it this way. I think July is 40k like 9th edition Like all July And so I think that we might be able to slip in one week Like either pre-order on the 20th or pre-order on the 27th for delivery on the 4th of Like a couple things like I think maybe maybe the Lumineth box maybe But we'll see Otherwise, I'm just gonna go spend all my my elf money on magic cards Okay, so Let me tell you why I Think you're wrong. Okay. Yep Because They just ended their financial year So games workshop financial year there their financial year ends in June the first week of June. Yep. Okay And They've just gone through an incredible like an incredibly not in right period, right? All right, because of like having to shut down for a while and having no sales and like Undoubtedly their investor report and everything that they're gonna put out here in July is not gonna be super great, right? Yeah, and If I was them and I needed to like super boost sales, I try to get 40k night edition out as quick as possible now That's not to say that they won't also sneak in a little bit of a OS here and there, right? Like so I don't totally disagree with you like you could see the Lumineth box Right No, it won't be the whole range But they had already they had already stated a long time ago that we were gonna get the box separate from the general release Sure, which I think now is probably I mean they also mentioned that they reset the the release schedule, right? Right, so my guess is they'll like for my Giants and the full Lumineth were probably waiting until after Until after 9th edition, yeah, yeah, I would agree with that probably August unless we get an off week in there like They put out the Lumineth box said and then it's mostly 9th edition 9th edition 9th edition And there's an off week and they're like and here's the Giants because it's because it's a book in one kit Right, it's a small enough release like Lumineth. It feels like they'll actually need a lot of build-up to get that whole thing out Right because there's so many maybe Because there's so much in there, so but I don't know I would love to be wrong Like I would love to log on this Sunday and see like them Giants are coming and I'll be like Yeah, or see that the elves are coming and I'll be like, okay Well, I'm happy for those people You think we're looking at August for the GHB. I have no idea. Yeah Yeah, we have we have heard zero which tells me it's not anytime soon. Yeah you know like We know they're somewhere because they arrived they got shipped so we know they're printed Yeah question of when they think they can fit it in the release schedule now Yeah, so like we have the bill of lighting or whatever. So they're they're there. They're printed. They're done If I had my guess I would say yeah August that would be my guess Yeah, I'm hoping that's the beginning of August so that that way we'll have enough time to take everything into account For Nashcon assuming that still happens, right, which I am going to doggedly assume it will until it doesn't So we'll see and Yes, I agree with Like I mean the question was is 40 K can have a lot of weeks though aside from two weeks of pre-orders Well, and then you I think it you kind of answered your own questions with like multi parts would fall the starter After a while like yeah, they'll put they'll put out the starter box And then they'll probably put out other releases because like the necron versus Space Marine starter box you saw that there's other things in the necron range that are not going to be in the starter box But that are in that big image of all the necron So like they're gonna say here's the starter box and then also here's the other space marine and necron stuff over the weeks after that the new big satan and the new silent king and the new big pyramidy thingy and the new war of the world's walkers and On and on right, I mean they have quite a lot to release there. Yeah, so good They are they are quite pretty. They're quite looking models. So there you go And then yes as well as of course as somebody mentioned. Yeah, that's a good That's an excellent point. Somebody else mentioned. We know codex is like death watch are coming Yes, and there's additional codec stuff. We have to they have mentioned that so at any rate it clearly it's gonna be a Bit of a drought of AOS for a little while and that's fine So be it That's okay. I'm sorry for all the Lumineth players. I think that's really that's unfortunate I mean, look, I'm excited for those giants whenever they come. I really am they But I'll be happy to paint them later as I am now So I already did my army for this year and I still have a couple more pieces I want to add to it. So I'm in no rush, but if you're a Lumineth player I'm sorry for your luck because you've waited a long time. You have you have held out waiting for for Tyrion's forces and That's not nice. That's not nice. No Tyrion's forces And you're gonna keep waiting Because they're not part of this Not I mean I'm gonna be honest. I started selling off I'm like a bunch of my elf stuff this week like a bunch of my high elf stuff just because the market's hot and I've just lost really any interest in Lumineth There's a little gap like this is what happens when when hype goes cold, right? Like when it goes too long I mean we've been waiting so almost six months at this point and so and I wasn't that really hot on them before So I thought you know what I have a lot of the projects that I'm enjoying and so I'm just gonna do those I'll shoot some people with my KO and call it a sure as well. You spent this weekend Shooting some people we'll talk about that in a moment. Anyways, that's the news. So there's nothing else They're good. Sorry. This is gonna be how it is for a while. Let's pick of the weekend All right, Tyler. What would you like to share with everybody? Cool. So we're talking about 40k. There was a let me get a few out here as usual breaking the rules we've got the Table top tactics they did a podcast video YouTube thing today They are playtesters for 9th edition and it was one of the best Concise summaries of what they can talk about publicly right now about all the work that's gone into it. They went through a little more Detail and the perspective on most of what we know right now board sizes command points the raising of point values Which you know Vince you've talked about in that in the past or both you guys have talked about in the past You know, you don't just want to have a constant spiral of lowering and lowering point values Yep And so it sounds like it's roughly 2k is 1500 to 1600 is what we'll be looking at and anyway Yeah, it's a really great summary of everything from the perspective. All right those guys I'm big fans of tabletop tactics Lawrence in particular is a very well-known competitive 40k player. I Don't know to what degree he's done a lot of ITC, but he's been very competitive in the UK 40k scene and he's willing to critique publicly So when he says something is really good, I tend to trust him and yeah, he's he's extremely Pumped about the work that's gone into this edition and yeah There could be unintended consequences and surprises as always and things don't need to get approved Improved but they're pretty excited over there. So if you're really curious, I definitely recommend checking that out to find out more details No, that's great. Look if there's one thing I wish that AOS would steal from from 9th edition. Okay It's not shrinking the board size Okay It's not It's not a lot of the little things we've seen so far. Yeah Uh If there's one thing I wish we would steal it is generically increasing the points across the board Yeah like I would love it if if like we would do the same thing in AOS but in a not Truly across the board, but mostly so my perfect world would look something like this every horde Every horde infantry type thing would go up about 25 to 30 percent Okay Every single foot hero of like six wounds or less Would go up maybe five or ten like 10 percent something like that like if they're a hundred maybe they're 110 like a minimal amount Maybe zero percent. Okay large monster heroes go up 10 to 20 percent and regular monsters like The tree lord for example who I'm sure we'll talk about tonight, right? Would stay exactly the same or go down Because right now we have this complete upside down valuation of of units in the game and non hero monsters just regular tree lords behemoths Sure But like this occurred to me when I was looking making we're finding my my list for next on and looking at Things like a steam tank right because that's a that's effectively a behemoth a non Hero behemoth like that not the one with the commander. It's just a regular old steam tank, right? But the tree lord Honestly, probably the frigate and the to a lesser degree the ironclad fall into this, but certainly the frigate does yeah, um But you could go on and on you could pick these the gorgon the cygor the Right, we could pick a ton of these and like The problem is that All of those things are basically useless in the meta concept of the game Right, like how you win the game. They don't just look me like sure fun. It's about the best. Yeah, sorry Uh, yeah, I look like surf on it's about maybe the best they've done in terms of like the silicone obviously But yeah, yeah, you're right. It is pretty systematic just looking down the list Yeah, and what I mean by that is at best at best. They kind of kill something Hmm, but like at a wound per point ratio that is always inferior with defenses that are always inferior Right with offensive capability that is likely inferior not always, but likely Yep, right And they are always one model Yeah, yeah You know, so like always it's exactly it's just upside down in the actual like All else being equal Like I know nothing about the unit. I'll take 30 of anything over one of something Because that's how you win a game is it'll actually take an objective and hold it right Like that has an innate point cost and value to it right there Right just being 30 things Has a value to it because of zoning because of like above me on the actual numbers because of zoning and because of I Model count that yes, they are more valuable than than the one-off nonhero Right not to mention that. Yes as has been pointed out those monsters also often as many of them were designed to get Really bad as they take damage Yes, okay Was your lumen arc this weekend and it was like a d3 damage on the laser But it's but it's d3 damage on the laser, but then you have to roll a six up to trigger it right instead of the Yeah, sure Whereas some of them are actually quite resilient So the ones that are less bad that are sort of the top of this pile are things like the ironclad where if the ironclad gets beat up Yes, it's a shame that it can't fly or disengage as easily, but it's going to do its job Right, but it's guns still all work right Right um Whereas if you look at something like the chimera Right Or or monsters like that as soon as they take damage They're in the toilet as far as efficacy goes Yeah, like they get three wounds on And they usually lose the only thing that makes them good They'll have like one really good strong attack and it will suddenly be like hitting on a four or instead of doing five damage It now does four or three or two or if it did six it does a d6 which is wildly different in value Right just like all of a sudden whereas any unit of 30 All lose three dudes and that unit loses zero percent of its efficacy Because you very rarely get 30 of anything into combat you get 15 to 18 of a thing into combat in most cases again base sizes make a difference yada yada yada situations or situations But your average contact point on a 30 person unit is about 15 to 18 models meaning you have 12 I'll play to albedoive wounds. That's a tough word to say out of the wounds That you can just absorb and lose nothing right, right, right. Yeah, I would I would I would um I would hazard a guess that most single monsters that are non heroes Are 40 to 50 percent over costed Hmm. Yeah, I mean they're just Or you probably are effective I would accept either you could you could go the other way too like they could just get way more destructive Right or your defensive or whatever like yes, they're just yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with that Um, but yes the point being that they are way over costed for what they do relative to the rest of the other options like y Oh, why oh why oftentimes you're looking at a monster that's 200 points that that's the same number you can get 20 to 40 infantry for there is no universe where that ever makes sense for a non hero Uh, the only I'm trying to think about any non hero monster like obviously the ships are an exception in ko But that I have in any of my armies. Yeah, the ships are an exception because the extreme utility they bring You can put heroes in them you could put heroes in them. They can transport other units around they can teleport effectively every round Right. They have they have a level of utility that sort of counts. I mean, I guess my my my coach Um, my black coach would count for this certainly Oh, you're number one complaint of that is that it's not a hero and can't be a hero Right, right. Um, but what I'm saying is is that in general? I just don't build them unless a battalion requires me to have that min one Sure, I mean the bestilladon's probably a good example of something that that breaks this rule because it's still Yeah, yeah Something like stone horn beast riders, but that's because they have the ogre rule backing them up that makes them count as 10 Models because they're a monster. Yeah, like the war shrine and chaos. Maybe Yeah, but because it's it's a almost hero It's a fake hero. Yeah But those are the only ones like I wouldn't build I wouldn't spend like I wouldn't spend money on anything else sure Like that that's not like, um, yeah, I take that back somebody allister said, um, non hero spider isn't bad I agree with that. Actually. I like the deep striking. Um, spider I still think he's overcosted. Oh the scatter strand. Yeah, he's definitely still overcosted But he has the coolest hero. Yes Uh, regular mangler squigs maybe like because but I like the loon boss They're overcosted. I just think like the loon boss dwarfs them and in quality Uh, all the rogue idols an interesting one. There you go. That's maybe him because he has such a such an extreme utility to the army Yeah, that's a great one. But the fact that there's probably a hundred of these war scrolls, right? And and we were like struggling to find the five Name Yeah, so at any rate, that's what I would love to see Employ that point. That was a heck of a rabbit hole. We just went down But it really got up my craw because as I was thinking about this I realized that so many of the things that I love in the game are in this situation And I spiraled into that this weekend when I was or after you left tom and I was building lists and playing with steam tanks And I realized there's just no universe where I want a regular steam tank in my list, right? Yeah, right Right, because it just doesn't do enough, right Whether you're in an objective game or whether you're just talking damage or any of it yeah This hopefully we can make this not a deep rabbit hole But I'm really curious. Well, I've got both of you here Vince and I had talked a little bit about this So in this process of he and I have been discussing on and off a little bit of you Tom and others of hospital refinements or additions on the front of mission scenarios victory scoring conditions To say compliment ghs. So I think we're at a time right now. We're probably best waiting. So we see 9th 40k and ghp 20 see if the landscape looks like from that point on and and then maybe there's some opportunities So what I was talking with events about is I've chatted with many of our local idc 40k guys, for example About why do they enjoy idc 40k? And because it's not I've played a little bit, but I know I'm a good understanding And one of the things they really emphasize is the implications that they've seen Being able to choose your own secondary secondaries. So of course in idc 40k, you can choose three secondaries from a list of however many There's two different categories. You've got to take one from each category One is a kill category one is a basically mobility category So you've got to have at least one kill and one mobility Which helps to generally diversify army builds you have to be able to do both And then you can take your your third one from one of the one of those two categories or old school Which is a traditional 40k secondaries. Okay, so I've just curious you guys opinions on so that's like a design style a design choice of allowing players to choose Their missions choose their secondaries each game and you've got a list to go And of course, that's what we're seeing with 40k 9th now Yeah, sure, we're gonna have to absorb or unless they ate the itc thing. My answer is no, I don't like it I want to built into bespoke scenarios I gave a couple examples of tom this weekend because we were playing with secondary So we were using all the multiplayer scenarios all weekend which have those built in Okay, and it wildly changes the game in interesting ways Wildly changes the game And and the answer is I like those are completely random and they're just funsy scenarios It's not like I'd want to import those wholesale But I want them designed and bespoke and I gave a couple good examples of tom Yeah, it's so funny because like in that in the multiplayer scenarios you score an objective point for every five damage you do And so suddenly like chaff is a liability Yeah, you know like you know what the the best unit in the game was to be facing off against pink horse Oh, yeah, the the z each player dropped some pink horse and I was like all about to get me some points Right, look at that pilot 10 vps. I dove into him face first. I was like Yeah, absolutely plow through all the wombs and like It's just you just watch the vp counter tick right with So just to finish the thought so what I've consistently been hearing and for example I brought it up because what I heard strongly in that video by tabletop tactics with lawrence and And bone so I don't know what its actual name is everybody just calls him bone or be bone they were saying that The benefit of this of the chooser and secondaries is that generally in the experience It increases the range of viable variety In the game So, you know, you can see more thematic armies because you can choose the army that want to play Maybe it's intensely jet bikes oriented and then you choose secondaries that that jet bike army can do a better job of actually scoring You probably you have to have some balance and be able to compete against the primaries The idea in both cases is to stop skews. I just like the idea that the scenarios themselves have them built in That's the answer Because they could be more intentional about it Because it's an example of like the type, you know, the one that we talked about was that like the scenarios that pull you to the center Like hold a point Um, how amazing would it be if the secondary was ones where you had to hold Um to secure zones on the outer edges of the board Yeah Where like it's where it's pre-programmed to pull you against the actual main objective Yeah, in order to score all the points you have to dominate the board Right. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, and you think you can do this in a lot of different ways Let's get back to what we were doing. We've tangent it too far. All right. Tom make of the week go We're still in this segment. Yeah. Yeah, I do need to mention. Uh, so we've got Nash con Yeah, potentially Yeah, I also want to mention siege roles and again, I'm not I'm not on here to endorse going it's not my choice, you know, given the situation that we're in just to add that disclaimer This is not me promoting people going to events. It's promoting you having the awareness to decide whether you want to go to events or not Just to clarify that So we've got siege role coming up the weekend before Nash con. Uh, it's an amazing event. It's now two days 2000 points. I'm a good friend. Jeff Norman runs it every year. It's it's outstanding So just I'll we'll leave a link to that as well but just want to give folks a heads up that's an option And I think it's going to be at the gateway center in Illinois Kind of bordering Missouri and Illinois Nice I will link to both of those. So if you are someone who wants to go to an event There are a couple of events that will happen at the end of august. So still a ways away, but uh, Who knows what the world looks like in two months, but there we are. Yeah, absolutely Tom what do you got for a pick buddy? Yeah, um, I friend of the show nico published an article this week. Um, actually, I think it was just yesterday or today On siege in destiny dice and I want to encourage everybody to check it out Nice awesome 20,000 words. I like you. I like your quick wrap up. I'll link nico's article Uh for myself, I will uh shout out mr. Mephisto and our soul bound game that's going on every friday On mr. Meft's twitch channel. Uh, we did our third game last week. It's been an absolute ton of fun So if you want to understand why I might if we get a new storm cast book Well, uh, why I'll be building an entire storm cast army, but with skaven Uh, then you have to go watch the role the the the soulbound show Watch the soulbound rpg show and you'll understand why that project is slowly creeping into my mind Stronger and stronger and stronger and I want to make the entire rat cast army Uh, so there we go. All right Uh, okay, so let's talk about some hobby time Tyler Well, but don't work on those schemes Yeah, you have you've got a butt So tyler obviously is somebody who's helped out a lot with the scheme since the very beginning Tyler tom and I have really put them originally together and uh He had a lot you had a lot of good feedback. I read over it. I liked all of it So we're gonna be looking to make some of those updates So if you're coming to nashkon, hopefully you'll see some new versions of them schemes Yeah, absolutely There's a lot of people to that, you know, we've been getting feedback from jeff michael sand scott travis Sean austin be annoying and list out names. I missed anybody and yeah, thank you guys I'm so in love with the the schemes the format. It's brilliant It had so much to air was just a nice secondary layer Particularly the sort of timmy Nates it's it's cool combination of timmy johnny and spike The spike is it's really critical that you get your schemes in the nashkon scoring system That you know has been ported over to other events as well and the timmy is you know the flavor They're so for the flavorful indifference and what they can do to your armies. So, yeah, I think it's amazing. Yeah, right on Okay, yeah, uh tts if folks, you know been doing a lot on tts So if you're not maybe we can include a couple links to if people are still, you know, are curious tts curious table top simulator about how to play aos Uh, yeah, there's there's obviously actual games and tournaments or one day events at least that are going on at tts Right now, uh, maybe we can there's a really good guide out there if anybody hasn't seen it Maybe we can include a link to that as well and a couple of maps I've put together a big collection of preset battle plan maps that has everything that you would need To play a game, you know deployment zones territory objectives all the faction terrain, etc Just try to make it as easy as possible for ts, you know to run events and people to play games nice nice awesome Yeah, I've been watching. I mean i've been watching rob's breakfast battles where he's playing on tts. It's it's a it's great fun Absolutely, we'll call that a backup pick of the week. Yes. If you're if you're interested to watch some back reps rob Honest wargamer rob is doing a a breakfast battle almost every day So he'll be ready by the time you get up if you're in the states with me And uh, it's it's awesome. Uh, he's playing a lot of different fun armies. So it's cool Uh All right right on tommy. What about you buddy? What are you working on now that you're back at home? Obviously our hobby time is this weekend playing a a heck of a lot of warhammer tom came down We got what five six games in something like that. Yeah, it was good. It was good. Um Uh, I've been writing a dnd campaign. That's what I've been doing I'm glad to hear it tom I'm glad to hear it. That is the correct answer. You have you have chosen wisely Uh, awesome I look forward to finally wrapping this thing up this game up that has been going on for six years of our lives Wow Wow, I mean that's quite an assumption. Yeah there sure does fair You could always pull the old douglas adams and go for like and it turns out that we have the The fourth game in the increasingly inaccurate, uh Eber on trilogy like that that could always happen I mean, yeah I saw him in person in 2001 in my tea and he He was like everything you could have ever hoped for He gave he gave a talk for an hour and talked to everybody. Yeah, he's he was remarkable. I'm sure And then that was the anyway. Yeah, it kind of brings up because he passed away that year. Yeah Yeah, yeah Anyway, yeah, no for myself my hobby time has been an interesting and strange week Uh, I finished up that dracon, uh that I shared out this weekend the big dragon the dracon from creature caster that I'll use as a dragon ogre shaggoth. He comically fits on that 92 mil base comically And uh, but he he fits he fits it was a heck of a balancing act to make sure he was on there correct and not gonna fall over Then I had to repaint my wife's shoes. That was a favor that I did for her That was nice So those were her shoes that she got married in because I wear my doc martin's only and all the time It's the only pair of shoes I own and I've worn them every day since I was 15 Uh So I told her I was gonna wear my docs to our wedding that I was not gonna get dress shoes and I was very I was very steadfast on that Um And she was accepting and she actually brought her own her own She went out and got a white pair of uh of of doc martin's and so I I repainted them for her That's awesome. Uh, and then now I'm working on this bust that I've had for a long time I don't know it'll show up, but it's just it's this guy right here Uh He's like a some warlord guy. He was from it's it's an older bust. I don't remember exactly when it's from but I've had it for a while. I've always been happy with it and it's more chance to play with like, uh To play with oil paints and stuff like that in interesting ways Especially since he's got a lot of nice crinkles and wrinkles and evilness in his face. So One of the problems with oil paints is that you can paint so fast And then you have to wait for things to dry I'm just like, oh I accomplished what I would normally have taken six or eight hours to do with acrylic paints in like 45 minutes Now I gotta find something else to do It's a problem Uh, the oh somebody asked did I use an airbrush on the shoes? Yes, absolutely. I used an airbrush on the shoes Uh, I and I had to seal them many many times you talk about using varnish in between layers because I don't know if she's going to wear them out or not But if she does I had to and I don't know how that varnish is going to hold up. So we'll see But that's my hobby time. I'm just waiting on my next order to arrive Which is uh, the adeptus mechanical stuff so I can continue working on the whirlwinds edge army. So indeed Tom saw the thing I ordered for my display board when he was down here. I did and uh, it's going to be uh It's going to be a thing. It's going to be a hell of a thing live up to the hype Tom Uh, yeah, yeah, I've known about it. So yeah, okay, right It's going to be a lot of fun. So we'll see that'll that'll probably be what I'll work on here Sometimes soon once I get the units done That's pretty extraordinary looking table. You guys said I saw the photos for the weekend It's all the beautiful armies and the terrain. Yeah, you look pretty sexy It's uh, I've I've I've tried to get A good selection of different pieces of terrain there. I should add a couple more I've got some of the really old like Warhammer siege towers like from the old castle. I've got the castle Thought about just getting that out and painting that right? So so I got another big castle thing to add So because those are fun Anyway, uh, right on let's talk about trees guys Let's do it. Let's go green, right? Yeah All right, so Sylvan f Is there any book in 2019 That dropped with more of a thud Than sylvan f in 2019 being the key phrase there um I mean the irony being it was another delay last summer. Yeah, sure. It was also delayed. Yes, true To find thud Like it happened and we talked about it for The the brief second that the thud echoed And then it was Gone and here's the here's the funny part about it every time I've ever heard somebody list the books That came out in 2019. They always forget sylvan f, right? People will just go through the list like oh, we got fireslayers and this and that and da da da da And they're like, I feel like there's one more That's the other one and somebody like Now I feel like you got them all and then finally it'll come. Oh, that's right sylvan f came out too I mean, I've seen it happen So many times that book just gets forgotten Uh, yeah I I don't I can't remember a book that I'm more conflicted about Well history of aos, let's say because there's so much that I love about that book You're in too deep and and I think yeah very quite possibly but I'd yeah being in too deep Maybe I am highly biased to underrate to think that that book is underrated Maybe Like what I would say is this I think that the Like what didn't help it? Let me say it this way Was the fact that like everything that actually got released for sylvan f Was like lame And what I mean by that is like you couldn't get the hero Unless you got loonhurst, right? I got one of the big draws If you got blocked out of loonhurst, which by the way dropped way before the book did Way before Okay, like a month like originally it was a month scheduled before and then it ended up being like three months before So like when the book came out, you couldn't get loonhurst. That was the only new model other than the terrain which no one wanted replaced Yeah, and fence would argue that it was a worse like mechanically. It was a worse addition A worse change Um, he doesn't like the way the new treats are um, but But for like I don't agree with that critique I My frustration is the fact that they nullified so many other people's sylvan f wildwoods I mean, you can see there's the old wild woods. I know you can I know you can like But people but people like that's but that's not the response people had does that make sense I understand every time I've ever seen sylvan f woods now are let's play the touching tips game How many of these stupid little bases? Oh, wait, this one's too big Hold on. I need to get the smaller one because if I if I get the smaller one out I can get five little extenders instead of four or whatever Try doing it on a computer. Oh my god. Sure. Sure Okay, let's just get this out of the way up top. We've said it a hundred times in the show I don't want to make this the whole discussion They did wrong with the woods Period. So Yeah, so I obviously, you know, I agree with you guys on that But I haven't heard enough discussion of is what I consider a legitimate solution The solution that has been pointed to the first person that I Had heard it from with scott sprawl scott sprawl my friend before you guys were talking about it And this is like two years ago now or something. And yeah, you mentioned the idea of don't just give us one wood And then you make terrain Have the you know, you mark the train you have a way to yeah and it essentially has the same function Well, that has the potential issue of you then have randomness lack of predictability You're more at the whims of terrain Location, etc. I mean you've got to have roles That actually smooths out Variability smooths out randomness and I haven't really heard much discussion or consideration of you know The details of that. I like the idea and obviously it would be nice to just have a single wood I disagree. I don't I don't see any problem with it. I honestly don't I don't know what you mean Everybody has whims of variability to to this kind of stuff. Okay, okay, and Control in what method? Over the course the game you might literally turn every piece of terrain on the board into a thing you can teleport into Like feasibly if it's if it's Generatable at the same rate, let's just assume it's a one-for-one every spell every trick everything that does it now that makes woods Does this but becomes more reliable Because you don't get zoned out blocked out changed out of being able to place your woods down as you will now Right, that will happen sometimes Okay So it's quite reasonable in my mind if we just keep if we just swap this out 100% in fact I'd love to play some games like this Yeah, so so like Just I would love to see somebody experiment with this where instead just one to one swap it every time you cast a spell Do a thing use the acorn whatever right use the the the agent whatever and you make a wooden instead of doing that Just just boom a terrain piece do the use the same range restrictions. All that still happens, right? and Watch how much smoother it gets Yeah, because you're going to be reliable. You're going to be 10 times as reliable because I can't zone you out of doing it Well, okay, so like for example, would you just keep the holy within six as it stands? So whatever the terrain piece size is you just got to yeah, yes, holy then six of that and more than Everything else is yes. Everything else remains the same. You're saying for teleporting into the woods, right for tell. Yeah Yeah, everything else remains the same Like I'm swapping nothing else. Yeah, right and You know just your ability to teleport these things would get easier because you're you're not dealing You're worried about placing things If enemies are wrong, who cares you can still do it. It doesn't matter Right doesn't need to it doesn't it doesn't need to heed whether or not enemies are on it right and Then we're not then we're not wasting the touch at time with the touching tips game Yeah, okay, and you're not having to buy a bucket load of the wood kits because you want to transport them to Yeah, because you you often i've been finding you need the minimum You need three of the minimum size footprint just to sneak a wood in right And then you may often want two of those at least in a game Yeah, and and in addition to all that you're not dealing with the actual physical efficiency of the woods it is an in articulate Model to play with and position just as the old woods were I understand they tried to create this space But oftentimes you end up with sort of four You know three to four bases And and what ends up happening is then you're you're doing this You're doing you can't see my hands obviously because you guys can't see me But you're I'm doing the reach over and reach under Thing where you're trying to go over top and just set okay this guy's right He's he's hold on there you okay. He's right there Or yeah, or you're sawing off have you know the treetop you're sawing that off putting a magnet in it Removing it kind of the equivalent of what we used to do But just a little bit different. Yeah, just to have that flexibility. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, like again, I see this as the root issue Of the entire book Okay, because everything in this not everything I should say There are a lot of things in this book that want you to care about trees And a lot of your shenanigans Are tied to trees like some of your stuff is fully functional without trees But your shenanigans are often quite tree dependent quite woods dependent Right shenanigans are what lets you compete in games Yeah, which is why dredwood and we talked about dredwood on the show review show that we did That it was the standout I would say aspect of that book You know like the first thing on the list that stood out the most because it doesn't require woods to be down for the mobility And you could play that core aspect of older school style Sylvaneth equivalent of stringing out 30 dryads across board now I can if I'm playing fire slayers like lori mentioned in his show with coach you can put you can wrap Go first wrap 30 dryads around a fire slayer army to give them a speed bump I gotta go through go through first while you're scoring on objectives Anyway, you can't do that with woods if you're limited to woods. So yeah, right Yeah, I mean what it's effectively done is make it so dredwood just becomes so much head and shoulders above everything else Yeah, I've I've found that spell portal for my money is essentially mandatory For nondredwood. There have been far too many games where I have playing a good player who knows how to zone space And I'm not going first. They're going first getting on me, etc, etc And I don't have the reach to reliably get a wood in their deployment area. It's a really pressure Yeah, and that constantly is happening So, yeah, I think yeah, and but then that means you're relying on magic And if you're relying on magic you could be playing corn or slaves of darkness with auto binds Okay, it's ascendant seraphon lumen at the soon to get there are so many armies in the game that can just shut down magic Sure Seraphon, yeah, if you didn't mention him, but yes, you might have yeah Yeah, I mean when you're just facing like the the super frog This gonna that's gonna more or less insta kill your your your branch switches and branch rates like they're just dead Right, and and he's also just like no no no Yep, also no You know just smacking that down. So it's just it puts you on the back foot. Yes Uh Okay, I want to get into the specifics here. Let's let's talk about it like we're complaining So that's I wanted to get the woods talk out of the way now because I'll tell you Right out of the right off the rip If I was going to fix one thing if you said Vince, you can change one and only one thing about sylvaneth That's the change I would make Yeah, yeah Yeah, no, I could see that. Yeah, you're right. Uh, I need to play some games actually testing this Yeah, definitely now that we're talking through it a little bit more I can see the point that it could be a lot better actually Uh, particularly outside of dreadwood And I have to make winter leaf and all of these other and again, that's the thing I think the book did a reasonably good job of we've got five really cool blades in my opinion Two that you're probably not going to be touching unless maybe forgot something interesting interesting to do with iron bark Like teleporting 20 iron drakes with a runelord or something With with bridge, you know, you could probably you could do that, but uh, or earth guard or whatnot, but yeah That's relative rarity five blades that are really interesting and so yeah But with uh, I mean just overall with this book I want to I want to now flip into the current state of play. So you've been playing a lot of sylvaneth Tyler take us through where you think they currently are Right now and by the way, I don't want to talk about the woods anymore from now on the woods of the woods They do what they do. Okay, so yeah Yeah, I mean there's some nuances with the woods in terms of they really scaled back what they actually do Like that might be worth talking about because they don't do actually a hell of a lot You're you're spending time doing things that tend to have no impact on the game Razz my magic is mostly useless Whatever it's called where you might get smacked by woods if you're within an inch of it I think it's called oops. You hit your head on a tree branch. Exactly. That's literally only come up once where it's made Uh a difference in the game. It made a huge difference in that particular game But that was the only game their their rules that should just be eliminated. Yes. I agree Yeah, so I make that a five plus or anyway, yeah, there's little micro details like that you could make a change but Yeah, in terms of state of play where it stands right now I've been trying out Everything but dreadwood because I knew last year that dreadwood was probably the way to go and then lori proved it With doing really well at tournaments lori has had Three or four top five top eight top ten finishes. He came in third at aos gt Uh, there's a really good show he did with aos coach I think I might mention earlier when he goes through a little bit of that and he ran dreadwood and essentially Yeah, the what I thought the the book last year when it came out It appeared to skew mobility and melee And That for the most part is what I've been saying in the testing on tts I didn't play the book. I switched over to stormcast didn't play the book a whole lot Ranged outside of like 21 or 24 kernath bows and heartwood I don't see enough Reliable meaningful range damaged options Through a combined arms list and so that I can rely that I can sufficiently rely on to compete against a reasonable Amount of the spread when the spread is quite significant nowadays and what you're confronted with What on top of the normal problems that always encounter range like your own woods will will block you your There are other things that on the board that will block you You have things like to spoilers floating around that will just pitch black things like there are other You have realm rules still that can turn off line of sight like there are just again in built meta challenges to The range strat always What's the exact wording on iron mark? Define what you mean Um on including the dwarf units The exact Go ahead. Yeah, I'll read it if you Yeah, go yeah, go ahead. Okay Uh, let's see Oh, is it where's it actually at? Well, I thought it was essentially that you can I think essentially you can ally 200 points of Not ko. It's just limited to dispossessed. I believe I think that's right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Dispossess and fireslars. Yeah Yeah Dispossessed only if general is iron bark fireslayers only if general is iron bark. Yeah, there you go. That's right. Yeah Dispossessed and fireslayers. Sorry took me made a scroll right place Yeah, so like you're thinking about the what's in that category of reliable range damage Uh, 21 24 kernels hunter. That's not in in hardwood. That's not to me a design answer you know, you're Saying we're going to make kernels bows viable by having an artifact That makes them interesting but only at scale I've been trying like Liam. He was on the show last year with coach. He talked about his list. Uh, d'Arthur Nine bows six size Some bodies not not many bodies. That's an interesting list. I don't think it's that great to be honest I've tried out lists like that. It's got a number of problems. Again, you're working hard This book is generally you're working hard to go three two And you might go four one, but you're working pretty damn hard I think now it is to go four to go three two so With maybe the exception of dreadwood again good players good dreadwood lists good matchups You can push four one with greater confidence with with greater probability Five oh is still incredibly difficult. I think extremely difficult. Okay. So yeah, there's just uh, I think ironjacks are interesting Sisters of the watch, maybe I haven't tried them out the math is certainly a lot better Again, you probably got to do bridge or strategy where you're Consistently giving reasons for your opponent to come into you Uh as a threat that's being screened off. But yeah, most of the range damage. It's it just has has inherent challenges right now Yeah, like an ideal ally for them would be would have been Uh 12 uh like injured riggers with all guns Yeah, um because they're flying so they could ignore woods ignore woods, right? Um, yeah, and then they would have the range and the reach and the threat actually Put some pressure, but unfortunately they aren't included So yeah Yeah, so I mean someone else started out at least my take on where where that Why I love that book was because they reminded me so much of high elves And I think a lot of people they reminded of high elves high elves from a combined arm standpoint That book when it came out did a little bit of magic mobility dammit, you know combat Uh durability, you know, they they check roughly the five boxes But they didn't do anything too intensely They started to do something too intensely with the change to mass rage discount in 2017 and where generally that accelerated the 7th player base Awakening to oh my god, you can spam dryads And chain them out and throw in a frost heart phoenix to make them up Not only might as want to hit but might as want to wound etc That became the the go-to and that was obnoxious and just yeah It did really well, but that's not exactly a fun play style pattern of alpha bunkering etc with all that Yeah, so the army that the book it's not a combined arms army anymore as best like as best as I can tell it's very skew Um with really good play you can skew toward. I think mobility limiting your engagements Uh being careful about where you're doing damage output but that often falls apart because of Of the house of cards nature of so many aspects of the book particularly the main way that has been most competitive Which is the dreadwood Stave extra extra cast on your branch wraith Throne of vines plus two to cast stacking Get up spites from hive then you're teleporting from your bunker wood your launch pad with plus three to move in charge And you're using dreadwood. Yeah to get away from the needs have woods down Um, so yeah, that's been the most competitive, but that's a house of cards That right now it's probably would face the most difficult challenge of actually, you know, lory wasn't facing serophon Or uh, I'm not sure where uh where zinch was when he was doing quite well But I think the meta it is quite a bit more challenging out there right now with that house of cards dreadwood build That was insane sure because if you've got if you've got Which is very likely you'll face auto dispels table wide dispels You know massive bonuses to dispels people who are single casters who will have as many casts as your whole army Right like that's all highly likely now and that everything so much of what you just mentioned is based on Being able to get off a few key spells Yes You know getting off the little endless spell that makes everybody Despite swarm hive or whatever right that makes everybody plus three to move and plus three Yeah, like it's so essential to this strat because you want to basically just you know Pop out the guys you want to put them where you want and then basically auto nail the charge Especially if it's like a group of current off who might always be in range of the appropriate Rerolls or whatever right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so the play style is is that your which I don't mind I mean we had that play style from the beginning. We had our launch pad our bunker You would push it around it. Sorry, uh, you anyway, that was that was traditional and they bumped that up with spite swarm hive Yeah, so and it looks cool. I mean it kind of it's you know Bunker and spring forward it it's kind of thematic Maybe gets a little bit repetitive repetitive and we nice have some other options But yeah, it's so the play style is you essentially have waves And I would say as long as you've got some hammers and you're going to with this mobility melee focus like nine sides Or six sides six swords 20 spikes 20 spikes double outcat You can do drive what you can do a number of different options I mean you see some similar patterns like lorries list for example 30 drives 10 spikes five spikes five spikes nine sides Six swords spiked swarm two branch wraith arch revenants So that gives you three big units, but also gives you 10 spikes Which is a meaningful threat particularly if you got plus one attack Yeah, so that I mean that they can go through a pretty sizable screen for example That's the thing that the army, you know the army needs to be able to kill a screen to give you the juicy bits It gives you nine sides you can but generally it's yeah, it's a pressure play style Which is what we used to be and you get that pressure because often your opponents don't want to take first against you Even if they out drop you they don't want to face a double turn from nine sides With reliable charges, so I've been finding that most people. Yeah, but give me first and I You often still need to pressure Influence tempo get on the objectives early pull your opponent apart Even if you're you know those nine sides die at the bottom of one If you can kill a key piece or meaning you know get enough return Maybe not an equivalent enough of value exchange. Yeah, I think you're playing the value exchange Creshing your opponent and you've got waves you need to have multiple threats of waves 20 spikes 20 spikes nine sides six swords, you know enough that gives you the capacity to have You know to try to win the value exchange game and to have enough bodies to score objectives Right. Anyway, that's generally what I've been finding Winter leaf everything else falls apart because of magic the inability to get woods out With sufficient reliability spell portal is an absolute must and non-dreadwood I think tree revenants are an absolute must tree revenants are still great in general even with dreadwood And a tree lord ancient I think is mandatory in non-dreadwood just because of the auto wood Yeah, which is which is madness because he's underway, but at least Uh, okay. No, I agree with all that. Let's I mean tom any other thoughts you want to add on that? No, I think all that's pretty accurate. Yeah Yeah, what's our current positives? Let's let's take into account what what this army has going in its favor Which I argue is actually again as we mentioned this right before the show If I were to just sort of show you the kinds of things this army has as disposal And then told you that it performed so underwhelmingly I I just feel like people would be like I don't get it. Why? Right because it feels like it has so many good Tools and that by by that I mean you look at what current author capable of you're like, okay This is a unit that's got a four up Decent number of wounds that can re-roll Like not the worst ratio at 15 wounds for 200 points like it's not the best But it's not the worst for what it gets They can put a four up re-rollable They've got a you know neg to rend weapon is one of their options neg to rend is obviously highly valuable and powerful Right So you look at that you look at the aforementioned tree revs, which I still think are one of the best units in the whole game You look at spite revs and their ability to just like They are very glass caniney, but my gosh, do they have a Yeah, they're awesome Like yeah, they really do dish out damage and tom you were early on spite revenants when you saw the book You were talking about them. Yeah, they they can be amazing They're good for mass dice Yes, you need weight of dice. Yeah, they do it weight of dice like they're not going to punch through things that need rend Or environment they're going to be they're not going to perform as well But the reality is is that like they're cheap like so two blocks is 400 points. Exactly. Yeah Yeah, double double outcast might be the most intriguing Battalion to battalion lower drop option that we have right now You know that that is another challenge is that it because some of the battalions free spirits For us full of dreads free spirits with third through and the and the current off 40 points over cost it I would say at least so you're paying too much to get to the three to five drop range Double outcast can get you to I think a six drop Somewhere around a six drop seven drop But yeah positives. Yeah, I mean there's a bunch the The I mean, I mean as we know there are inherent challenges with Stats that I think we often collectively reference in our minds to some degree or another You know consciously or unconsciously So in that right now I just looked before the outbreak was that a 41% win rate. Okay. That's not You know, there's a lot of problems with that. I think one this has always been a relatively difficult army to play higher Higher thresholds all this equal. This is an army. It's got a lot of options It has not been necessarily obvious to most players that dreadwood was the way to go So most of those players are probably not playing dreadwood that it had even had been going to tournaments within that data set If you look at the range of potential matchups Most of them they at least in my opinion they at least have a shot at competing against Um, a lot of them are going to be tough matchups. Like there's a big category of melee armies Corn slanash war clans fleshy to cords legs darkness nergal sure Those all might be yeah, they might be all tough matchups, but they're winnable games They're games, you know influenced by generalship, etc there's a There's seraphons zinch chaos ascendant with the stupid 9 plus or 10 plus on three dice summoning of pink ores Kairos with almost board right board wide threat range or lord of change or yeah Kairos in particular of nuking, you know throwing six mortal wounds at you and nuking Yeah, because he flies he ignores line of sight Uh with the woods nuking your branch wraith So there yeah, there's some kind of patterns like that obr Fire slayers even obr fire slayers you might be able to compete a little bit more than you can against some like seraphon zinch Because of again the mobility of dreadwood have enough bodies play. Well, maybe it's it's hard, but IDK so it's the ones that are at the top That probably are systematically a little too good with some of their builds that are the most problematic And that's that shouldn't be that surprising ko is I'd say the exception because they ignore line of sight So you could just get everything is going to fly and everything is going to shoot you right in the woods Yeah, but you again you've got to you need to zone You need to have 20 spikes of 30 dreads zoning Some matchups particularly with the too many match too many battle plans having the We've only got 18 inches between us. It can be difficult to zone out 24 inches the 24 inch kill box of ko So I have had that I found that challenging But yeah, if you can zone out the 24 inch kill box and certainly the 18 inch kill box That does you give you a little bit more capacity to compete against ko And yeah, but yeah, anyway point being that there are bad There are difficult matchups seraphon is an absolute joke as far as I can tell with seraphon I think seraphon is definitively the most powerful arm in the game right now When I look at seraphon versus zinch I even see a gap between those two. I would much rather play against zinch than seraphon Yeah, I mean I would tend to agree with that especially that the Again taking sort of the worst version of both of these things right because as tom will tell you You can like I played some Multiple times this week at it. I mean it wasn't terrible right Yeah, I mean I because I I played my seraphon army against tom a couple times this weekend I used a coalesced army the first time and you know, it was I had a regular slon not croak I only had three sally's, you know, largely what I was doing was, you know, my staggy my staggy chief You know that fun little combo and some thunder lizard stuff And then I did it in the one that uh, then I did one without a slon completely Was the whole like sorus type army like super heavy sorus And uh, that did not work at all that Uh, that that that poor that was a great experience Sure, sure. Sure. Were you sat back and shot me while the ogre player climbed inside of me? Yes, and used to be As I found myself in the middle of that particular, uh, operation that was not great Uh, so, you know, it's but so again taking the worst version of all these armies. Yes, I agree they if If sylvaneth is scissors, then they are the rock that is going to just smash you Because they beat your magic hands down. They shut like that's that's over They kill your tiny heroes. You actually need to do stuff. Those are dead Right curnoff even against coalesce curnoff curnoff swords are usually I mean the math and curnoff swords is the best even against two plus safe Looking at it. Now, of course, again, the game is a plate in math The reality is you often will want that to inch reach on the sides as we've had this debate forever Going on five, you know, almost five years now or at least four years now But yet coalesce just cuts that damage from the swords in half Sure, you know, I've been trying to kill 40 skanks and it's taken me three rounds with six swords. Yeah Yeah, I experienced it on k.o. Yeah, like those guns getting the big guns getting cut in half. That's a big deal Yeah, absolutely. It's fun. That's my favorite thing I also like that I that's also the more fair version that doesn't teleport and doesn't summon and all that Well, exactly. You're not running. Yeah 18 sallies Or nor nor croak. Yes, nor croak. Yeah At any rate, yeah, there's a there's a bunch of positives. I mean spites Uh branch rates arch revenants me like curnoff Places of power is amazing 30 dryads bumping them up woods. You don't have to Use a command point to second for battle shock Uh, the spites were high. It was really good. Vengeful skull root might be underrated Glade warm is not that interesting in my opinion. Dorthu has been lowered to 300 points now. Uh, he started out I think at 400 back into something like that. Yeah Uh, they've there are at least a few really interesting artifacts very tongue stave is the the go to for most most folks Vestral gym is interesting out of cast a spell like vertus harmony get a curnoff back deether model spites tree revs or Or dryads or you've got a nice common you can do with Vestral gym regrowth and an all route with Something that allows When you cast a spell As the command traits like on a trillid ancient if you cast a spell successfully you automatically get d3 heal wounds So d3 heal from that d6 heal wounds from regrowth through the automatic Vestral gym casting it So you can do a little little combos like that are interesting crown of crown of the fell bowers Within picking enemy unit within six inches. We roll all wounds against it So that could be nice with a spikes from hive combo teleporting a trillid ancient you get the free teleport from him Uh, put a put a wood down bunker wood Put out a wood holy with an 18 of the tree lords free from from his free one He gets a free teleport from that wood to the other Use your dreadwood ca tell your command ability to teleport 20 spides six sides Whatever to go along with him make those charges. Hopefully you can roll a six up with re-rolls And get in there and yeah picking in it now your re-rolling wounds Spites your re-rolling ones to hit and dreadwood that dishes out a ton of damage, right? And so there's a yeah, there's a few acorn is still interesting and certain list But uh war saw war singer is is solid I think it's a an option that the player base probably hasn't looked at enough war singer is Uh, maybe the only really interesting liable command trait, but it gives you plus two to move in charge So you can stack that with cogs turn that into a plus four. You could stack that with spider hive a plus seven War singer opens up deep striking more reliable deep striking And you're not at the whims of spider hive where you have to cast it and you have to Not roll a one to trigger it and you have to you have to be on the board So yeah, you can actually do deep striking, you know play storm cast have stuff on the board Like a little gab bomb, but but with a one less one less bonus on the charge So yeah, I'm where do we think draka stands right now? draka In my opinion is too expensive. I really think the war scroll is one of the more intriguing war scroll updates Yeah, I like the design of it. She's too expensive relative to her fragility and randomness She also of course is being hurt by the fact that our own goddamn wolves block our line of sight Right If Yeah, if her ability, maybe that's too strong. We don't have to be really tested colony of litter puries Dematically narratively You know, you know, she just sends these things out and they just swarm and attack whatever uh Yeah, if she could just hang out in the wood screen 18 inch threats And you know that that would actually make her interesting at 320 but because yeah Yeah, I mean I feel like I feel like she is the example of something that has a really good war scroll like her Fundamentals are solid. She's like 10 wounds. Yeah, but but uh her uh space three up save Relatively fast on foot and I inch move She is a caster Her range damage can be actually really You know good frankly For how many attacks she can put out? I mean she can put out a unit's worth of attacks herself effectively, right? And she can also buff, you know works well and interesting with with spideys obviously who I also think are a good unit I really think she is just a points issue. There are a lot of things in this book that I think actually need the The war scroll rewritten See tree lord discussion. We'll get to that stuff in a minute Yeah But I don't think draka needs like she got the war scroll she needs Yeah, I can see that she just needs the points that fit that war scroll Do you think she should stay a monster with a damage reduction table with a damage table? I You're saying could she flip over to be on on Be like the like the night line table or or Yeah, or just be a be an idol on and not have a monster not not be master the idol on in the cat llama These like ten wound pseudo monsters that don't really have a damage table Right. Yes. I think if you told me that was how you're going to redesign her it'd be fine Yeah, I agree with that. Yep You know on board of that I don't know that it's hugely impactful To what your general strat with her is but I mean it does matter Her her actual she goes worthless in melee pretty fast Yes, she takes wounds because those claws need to be doing a lot of work at at n2 rent to damage and when she's only making Three of those attacks versus six of those attacks. It's a heck of a lot of difference in her output, right? Yeah But I mean I to me she feels more like a ranged mobile utility piece like Sure, just kind of marching around the outside Launching bee missiles at people Yeah Yeah, and like Absolutely, she has a role or a number of roles But a very clear role which is sniping five six when he rose. Yeah a role that is Largely unfulfilled Reliably efficiently or reasonably efficiently in the book right now. So yeah, drop her points Maybe remove that monster key where good to go Okay, so let's talk about some actual how we improve this bad boy. Okay, because I agree with you and again We all stated at the beginning that the simple answer to this question is fix the woods But we're not going to do that. We're going to fix it in the other ways. So let's say we want to what woods or not What are the other ways we fix this? Tom what are you what's your first thought what's what's your what's your what's your next thing you want to see Changed in this book. I got a hot one that I want to launch off but I'll let Tom go first a real anvil unit A real anvil unit. You're saying beyond Dryads 30 dry ads in a woods neg one to hit on a four up save that kind of thing. Yeah, not enough for sure Yeah, because you can't anvil an objective with that Like that's a great anvil and a woods that I don't care about because it can't be on objectives like and so Like Right Like it's neat that they're defensive, but I just don't have to catch them because they can't be on the objective Well, yeah, they can I mean that you just so well the issue In part is potentially with the pre-deployed wildwood, which is the one let's say we're playing classic era border war We're playing border war. I want to be able to bunker at 30 dry ads on my objective I want to be able to put my pre-deployed wildwood At most three inches away from the objective, but not six inches away from the objective. Sure Right now the book says six inches away from the objective for the pre-deployed wildwood. So yeah, that's a problem There's been a lot of inconsistency in the community because yeah, anyway, there's confusion right now that they need to clear this up Uh, some people are saying just go with the faction terrain orata And ignore the boat three inches three inches. You're not getting 30 on the objective Uh Okay because because of because of the Like the the actual base of the woods is what an inch Like at the thinnest point, maybe it's a half an inch. Yeah, it's like yeah And so you're going to get two and a half inches of model bases In a curve and so the woods is going to touch it at one point, right? It'll touch at one point and then the sphere will go like that and so you're going to get two and a half inches So you're going to get what eight models? Maybe Yeah, it's definitely more than that I'd have to look at it, but it's it's more than that. I've done this so many times Well, my point being that you could just get crowded out without them ever having to enter your woods Yeah, you're late. Well, your later woods can pop up on the objectives, right? They only have to train in any models Yeah, one that one inch away from everything and of course you measure to the center points So you're right. You're literally right by the objective. You're not Encompassing it like you used to which was obnoxious, but yeah, you are right next to it. Yes, you are one inch from the objective Right, exactly. Yeah Okay, so That's fine. That's fair a real anvil unit. I don't know It's um, um I'm a few minds on that Sure, like let me let me give my answer to that. You're ready. Tell me what you tell me what you feel about this Let's let's change Kerrnoth for a moment. Okay Okay Here's Kerrnoth's new profile. They work exactly like they do now Maybe they cost exactly what they do now. I'll think about that in a minute. Okay They have no rerollable save that they have to plant their feet Okay, they just kind of do that we can still keep the name of the ability. Yep. All right or whatever just Doesn't matter In combat in melee combat Okay, the first of all on their scroll they have a they have a Three up save. Sure. Let's put them at just three up. Okay, and they have a six up damage shrug So they have a three up rerollable No, no, I said get rid of the rerollable We're gonna give them three up all the time and we're gonna give them a shrug. We're gonna give them a feel no pain I'll start at six up. I could be pushed to five up something three up picked up. Okay. Yeah I would be okay with that. I think Tyler, what do you think about that? Three plus and a six up, but no reroll in combat. No reroll in combat. No reroll in combat. Yeah, like just But they have a six up against everything. We're dead mortals. Tyler. Don't forget you can spend a command point and get a three up reroll reroll ones Like or mystic shield or mystic shield or more That stuff's all out there. So you're trading a four up always rerollable for a three up. That is a conditional reroll once Yeah, it's it's definitely very interesting So I know that's cliche to constantly use that word But yeah, it's I have to think more about it It certainly helps with the shooting issue Where they're crap against shooting because they're just a four up. Maybe reroll once So that's nice. They could be a two up and cover real once. That's great That was another thing that was taken away from Sylvanath that a number of people didn't like but Relative to the state of the game when it was taken away was not that big an issue That is okan armor with the extra plus one save. Yep That was not an issue in the game at all So that's gone. Yes, but yeah, and then the change to mystic shield, of course, which was probably a good change Yeah, that might work Shaving pushing down their save into the let's call it heavy anvil part, right? Which would the three upper generally are heavy are heavy and will save right now, right? Then you do have to do something to get them into rerolling ones But you've got options and then giving them some kind of light mortal wound protection slash other You know secondary save that just works against everything And shapes of another 16 of the damage Seems to me like it would actually be quite effective at keeping them around Because the problem with the rerollable save is if they ever get touched By something that snag one or neg two ren neg two especially they just evaporate Yeah, because you can be on six up rerolls all day that you want. I don't care Yeah, right Yeah, and you're not and again, especially with Dreadwood as the apparent main answer that we're looking at right now And the way that woods work You're not that often in my experience, but able to just here's my bunker of six sides with 10 or 20 or 30 Dryad surrounding and you've got to come at me because you're not plopping as you just said tom You're not plopping and encompassing an objective now where they have to come into six sides So there's so many games where yeah, people just are able to Ignore the sides too much and you know, I can't play conservatively. I've got to I've got to do something with them But yeah, that's that's really interesting Vince. Okay. Here's what you work. You ready for my next change Yep, all right. I'm gonna fix the thing that needs to be fixed in this army the second most Okay, there is a problem in this army There is a problem and it drives me crazy All right Do you know what that problem is tyler Ah Allerial is considered goddess your god is weak That's right Is weak I make fun of allerial all the time and I mean there's no defending her anymore right now, but it's just not She is a joke. She is a joke Yes, she is 16 wounds 16 wounds. Yeah, that is not a lot No, okay Let's just let's just all lay that out there. Dred sword is laughing right now. Sure. Absolutely. She has 16 wounds for 660 points 600 points, but Sorry, 600 points. That's right. She to go down. Sorry 600 points. Yeah uh and Still way over costed, uh, and she has base three up save Okay, fine She can fly which I appreciate. She is quite fast. That's the one thing that's good about her She has a 16 inch fly move on a pipe plate base that is very hard to fit places, but At least she flies so thank goodness for that. Okay Uh, yes, she can summon You know on average a 200 point unit Great. That's not a terrible thing. So let's call her 400 points. Let's just assume that the other units she summons are good. Okay. Yep Let's call her 400 points. I would point out that zinch gets a gaunt summoner that summons Uh, you know a 200 point unit and he cost 60 points. Just if we're doing that same math Sure, then also summons 50 wounds the table in there ain't nothing on her list. It's 50 wounds Uh, or a spellcaster for that matter other than the branch witch and whatever. That's not exactly in the same caliber of situation here right Uh, so let's call her 400 points She's a wizard and she can cast three spells at no bonus At no books none zero bonus Okay And she has You can you can throw is it the throne of? Yeah, I mean throne of vines Good luck getting the initial throne off. That's the problem. Yeah, that that was another outstanding Maybe unintentional thing about the book is that you can stack throne of vines. Yeah Plus four plus six in the woods this weekend, right? Uh, yeah, because none of us were into spell range of it neither of us had to spellers and by the way, it didn't matter He lost that game He was up to plus six to cast and it didn't matter He just murdered him At any rate Uh, I remember my corn demon prince. I think chopping him right off that that that throat. So whatever it doesn't matter But that is legitimately one of arguably the best uses for a laryl right now spell portal throne of vines Have her ass in one spot for a couple rounds Which you tend to want to play conservative with her anyway You tend to be how you want to play her because she got she's way too fragile She's way too fragile. So you've got your let's call it a four hundred point model Yeah, hanging on the back as maybe a late game pressure and in the meantime thorn of vines spell portal Uh metamorphosis metamorphosis casting value. That's number of dies. You check out a unit Each four up is a mortal wound spell portal gives you a lot more range. You can actually snap your rows Put some wounds. It's you have a longer threat range. So anyway, that's that's maybe one of the most legitimate uses of it Right now her commandability is also underwhelming just it's it used to be Yeah, it used to be amazing right And now it's reroll wound rolls of one Within 14 inches of her. Yeah an army that Is probably struggling for command points more than almost anybody else They're they're very light way way up there. Yeah Yeah So I get gods should have good command abilities. Let me just start there. That seems like a gimme. Okay Uh Yeah, my feeling is when we get these 600 point to 800 point models right Uh, they need to be Better in some way. They just they have to be a cut above I don't mind like archion is a great example of what these things should feel like and look like an act like He's so good now. I think yeah Yes, archion is very strong and by the way archion has layers of protection against sterile Right, not only does he have an incredible save. He also has a spell eater. He also has a mortal wound protection, right? Like yeah, when you when you throw magic at him, he will just tend to laugh it off Right. Yeah, yeah Nagash is it is actually a really good example, especially when put into the power of obr And the various things and the sort of petrified elite type of stuff You're essentially relegated to just trying your best to minimize what he does and ignoring him Right because he just becomes a monster an absolute monster on the battlefield, right? Yeah Uh, so, you know these even catacross by the way, I think falls into this category at 500 points His utility is so high the number of things he does the way he influences The battlefield is so impactful, right like you have to he is a relevant factor Yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure where doc are but I would I mean certainly morathi had been that kind of She might she might still be in that category. Yeah, she's such good What's up? She's worth her points. Yeah, she's 480 or whatever that sounds right off the top of my head Yeah, she's punch. She's a great anvil like she does work Yeah And so when I look at a laurel, it's funny because you mentioned like oh the strat you would have to play with Eliminates literally the only thing I said was good about her her mobility because you got to pin her to the ground Right. Yeah Yeah, we haven't mentioned that you can now Move her and at the end of the phase is when you summon it's no longer in the hero phase So yeah, you could potentially 16 with a run and then summon holy within nine of her So if she can survive long enough you hold on to that ace up your sleeve You might be able to pull off something interesting You can do some chaining some some interesting setups, but but yeah, generally Yeah, she's staying hanging out in the same spot. Okay, so a laurel the god again of the of the The god of a whole species right who by the way should know her entire spellboard which she does not correct. Sure. Yeah, absolutely That would be nice too. She only knows one. Yes, that's fine That's fine. Well, I guess two techniques. They all get a bonus one for free So she's she's she's got one plus one for free. Yes. She ever she gets the bonus nacho like everybody else I suppose. Yeah Okay So how do we fix her? Well, I think my first answer is that She always is plus one to cast Uh dispel an unbind and it goes to plus two if she's within an inch of a wood Okay That's my first answer. She's supposed to be a really powerful spellcaster Absolutely, that's actually part of her story So let's have her be that way Yes, plus two doesn't solve all the problems But it means so if you get that number at least you only have to be near a wood And even if you're not you still have something it lets you get rid of the need to pin yourself on throne Right. Okay. Yeah second. I thought this was her war form Yeah Right, I mean that's I'm not mistaken there, right? Like that's how the book opens up Yeah with the the the story of how a laurel can no longer allow her people to retreat She has taken on her war form and it's time for her to take her children to battle You don't enjoy five attacks fours and threes That's not doing it for you. It's not doing it for me. It's really not Nor nor is her her silly talent of the dwindling attacks that do nothing Okay, there's a category of things like that massive paleo talent out of the dwindling the wildwood In the charge phase. Yeah, these things that are on six ups and like Yeah, it's like what I don't know just seems useless. Um, kind of odd odd those writing I mean, I yeah, just make it a little more interesting reliable Like some a little more potential to actually do something Yeah, so one we're going to take that spear that she's got that giant spear of aryan that she stole And we're going to give it an actual melee profile. Okay That thing does not look like a missile only weapon It feels like you could also stab somebody with it in melee So we're going to give her if she's in the war aspect and a god Then she can actually swing some so she can punch Okay, so we're going to give her a good number of attacks with that thing Probably something like six attacks on threes and twos at neg one for three damage each or something like that You know figure out what you like, but it's going to be in that range. Okay We're going to take the beetle and we're going to put him on threes and threes Yes, I have that as well. Yeah twos against five or more models That would be twos and threes. It's still only five attacks two and three. Yeah That's that's a slam dunk. Okay We're also going to lower the wounds chart on the great antlers by one There's what I'm saying. So like it goes five five four three two Instead of five four three two one That is a class like what happened with that That damage chart is human beings classic desire for Symmetry Somebody made that and they didn't think about it. They just said, oh, there's five slots. There's five numbers I'll have it go five four three two one. Look how nice and pretty and symmetrical that looks Wrong wrong answer because then she gets five wounds on her and boom already that thing is starting to fall into the crapper right so So that's that's next it goes five five then she's holding her actual like You know max melee potential up higher Right So now we've turned her into an actual melee threat There's the next step right because we've given her a bunch of spear attacks. We've made the beetle better It's actually threatening and we'll do damage next up is the most important thing. How do we keep this crazy lady alive? What do we do here? Absolutely, okay And there's there's the there's the easy options Which is you give her like a four upwards You know protection of the life bloom or something whatever boomer wounds Just mystically heal as soon as they're there like as soon as they happen They're already stitching themselves back together hence representing the four upwards She has like wolverine levels of regeneration, right not not Not half the healing that a vampire lord has by drinking from a cup That's not nice Okay, yeah, I'm sorry. That is what the math said. I double checked the math and that is indeed an accurate mathematical comparison The god of life should not be losing It not even close To vampire with a sippy cup. Okay Yeah, she had she had she had she had she had 2d3 but though that was a little too strong So we had to knock it out to d3 Oh 2d3 Of hero face healing a thing that might happen one in three combat phases Or how important yes, uh hero face healing is almost always worthless. So, uh The easy answer is you slam dunk her award save. I think that's the boring option There have been some people talking about it in the comments and I think that's the super fun one which is You give her an automatic one-time full seed of rebirth Okay, absolutely. That's my favorite as well. Yeah after she dies She pops back up on the board at her full wound profile But as a setup, right? So standard nine-inch sway from enemies. Yada yada yada We've been itself enough wildwood No, I don't think you'd even have to do it I think you don't maybe like we could talk about it if that's what you wanted to have But I think it just be you know, she's back alive so You know, I or you have to set up Holy within nine inches of sileneth wildwood. Like that's still gonna be a lot of space Well, not her base is six inches wide six point right 6.05 inches wide So like that actually only gives you three inches around the woods less than it's like But you sure but that's not being in the wood. It's fair. I mean look here's what I'll say I am open to the suggestion. How about sure? Uh So like the fact that you could kill her off an object like so, you know Then she's good at holding an objective to a point You kill her off it and then your hero is on it. She can't just pop back up on it Right because she has to reset up away from them So sure you can do the woods or away from enemies like, you know And you could have the thing that if she cannot be reset up Uh, then she she has removed, you know, she's counts a slain, right? If there's if there's absolutely nowhere she can go Uh, but I like just comes back as the answer that feels very her yeah, and Also by the by it would make for interesting tactical play with her in the same way that Marathi's Iron heart makes her unique and powerful because Marathi can go You know Marathi can go sit and just be like, well, this is my objective for the next two rounds So you just deal with that Right unless you brought an you know an endless spell, you know is going to plow through me off turn I own this place now And and that makes her a really good piece It would be a cool counterplay to lots of highly destructive monsters Where she could she could get in do damage know she's gonna die But then pop back up like you could you could do the old like, you know Suicide charge and replace type of thing, right? Where you need to like get where you know, you sort of got a mutually assured instruction situation Pop back up with 2d6 wounds or full wounds full profile full profile full profile Interesting. Okay. Again She's a god. Sure. I want to point out that Nagash is running around for not that many more points Casting eight spells on a two up re-roll one save with a four up reflecting mortal wound spell Yeah, I'm sorry protection If he's in obr and yes with a potential of a five up shrug that also lets him teleport Yeah, and you may not want to even do anything to him because of the teleport. Yeah And also having a spell that just turns people instantly to dust the instant slain small Right, right. Now. He is more expensive. Okay, but my point is that's the space we're playing in, right? So again You know, I would put put her so Gordrack not a god, but Gordrack is the the sort of closest thing like that out of the destruction force I mean he would splatter her against the wall So fast and instantaneously. It's not even it's not even funny Right, and there's nothing she's going to do to stop him on the way in Right, she better have every sylvaneth in the army In between and then she'll stop that Right. She got uh, locust on a five up by a exalted death bringer chariot double activating and she had two wounds left Sure. Yeah, that checks out That like 200 point sonesh hero is going to take your 600 point god of life to the house, right? Yep So my point is is like I think that would be a really cool space now Maybe with everything I've said, maybe she does need to be like if we're going to pop her up at full wounds Maybe she goes back to 650 or 660 or something like that. Maybe that's the case. I don't know I'm I'm opening that kind of stuff. I'm trying to build her into a war scroll That's befitting her Right, right, and then we'll like we can figure out the points later because that that will just happen All right, we can back into that math But the first question should be what actually needs to happen on this scroll To make her worth playing Yeah, I like all of that. I mean, I think another like we're talking to gash. He's obviously got the amazing commandability It's one thing I was thinking about is With the army, there's not a lot going on around the spirit song And the spirit song is of course a really central narrative element of the the Sylvaneth lore So, you know as wargroves gather they have this Like rising song that gets louder and they get more connected and Stronger, etc. Such it has all these impacts. Yeah from this from the spirit song and sort of it's kind of like there's a There's an ebb and flow to it the more that they are distant from it The worse off they feel the less whatever, you know, it has it has impacts and then so yeah, you could imagine There are a number of different ways you could do this when I was thinking of her old commandability guy rand's wrath To me it was kind of like a spirit, you know the spirit song being expressed because it's once for game And if your entire army would get uh, there's real wounds or plus one of wounds one of the two It was amazing because it could last until your next hero phase You're gonna have multiple rounds multiple turns which you can do it. Great really great ability So yeah, maybe a way to maybe introduce a really meaningful spirit song Uh mechanic into the army might be really interesting in different ways. You can do it You know, you've got like the direction of what's it called the the tides of death by the Bydeneth whatever that's called the tides It could be a mechanic like that or it could be a really powerful big wall Commandability equivalent on a laryl, you know where they sort of the spirit song is is mainly mechanic oriented around her incentivizing the player mechanic where you're incentivized To have a lot of your units by each other because they're building that that's the power of that that spirit song And then maybe some You know, you don't get the benefits when there are a certain range away Like if you've got true resident inside of the board, they're not necessarily getting the spirit song But anyway, all kinds of different directions. I thought that would be interesting as a mechanic No, I mean, I would be happy if it was just literally the whole army re-rolls to wound Like that's like make it her old ability but stop it from being which was the whole army re-rolls to wound Just make it not once a battle like he used to be which was also stupid again, uh Nagash gets to give his whole army re-roll ones to hit and save every single round just just does that Anywhere they're on the board So Jobs are good. Uh, you know, these things are out there. It's not like I'm and again You know, coach asked what's her role and and my answer is these kinds of mega creatures Can't have a role They need to have multiple roles because there are too much of your army to have a singular focus Nagash In petrogash Has multiple roles He's a bully Right. Yeah, he's your magic dominance Right. Yeah, he will take objectives where that's relevant for him to do and those and those appropriate things, right? He can do he can play multitask. Well, he's same with archaeon Yeah, right. He's very central buff. Here's your uh, buff piece lynchpin your buff lynchpin. Yeah Absolutely and and by the way same with even somebody like marathi who's on the smaller end of her Right marathi still fills multiple roles in your army She can go in and hit hard when you need her to and she can also anvil when you need her to And she can also spell cast from across the board when you need her to Right, if you keep her if you keep her baby marathi at first You can you can do that and then pop out round two which i've done in games where she where I knew she was under no Threat Right, if I know there's no chance of her taking a wound because i'm fighting somebody who just has no ability to Deal wounds at that kind of range when something's bunkered. I'll keep her as baby marathi round one and just like Pop off some spells and go to town and then turn her into big marathi in round two or three Yeah, and send her in so like there's you all What i'm what i'm aiming for with a laurel is giving her the same capability because now she'd be mobile and she'd be dangerous She become a bully Yeah, right. She'd be decent at spell casting but she can certainly still meet her match, but at least she's playing the game Right. Yeah, and especially yeah with the way the army is designed right now where magic dominance might be the most challenging Uh thing that you can face as a seven up player Sure, which we still don't know how all that's going to work out like i'm i'm highly suspect of what the when tournaments happen again Whenever that occurs, you know, I can't wait to see what the magic world looks like sure where where Because I I really want to know if all these magic dominant people are going to mr. Burns themselves Or are going to just be the kings because they can just dominate the entire phase and I don't know what the answer is yet Anyway, it at least it at least would like her play and it would give her a neat utility trick in her ability to sort of You know go out there Be engaged You can be dangerous with her and then she comes back one time. By the way, just to be clear everybody I'm saying she comes back one time. I'm not saying every time. I just I'm not I hope that was cleared everyone I'm not saying she infinite respawns She has one full setup back to original what should give her the what should give her the depth she needs right Yeah, man, that all sounds pretty good. Where she stands right now. What do you think she should be point was? Oh god, like 200 points cheaper if she's going to stay like this I mean, she's vastly overcosted Yeah, like 450 at the top Hmm Like even even even taking into account 200 points of crenoth that she's summoning. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah, it's I mean Yes, because that's not how you calculate points if you have any question about that See Gone some there aren't costed at 80 points. Yeah, 60 points. Yeah, 60 points, right? Yeah, they're summoning 200 points of Um, of banks and or and or and or every other summoning in the game that doesn't back to the points. Sure Yes, I mean because take that away. What is she doing? Let's get rid of the summoning. What is her? What is she doing right now to justify those points? Oh, what is she doing right now or what is she supposed to be doing on the table? Like right now as it exists? Yeah, right now. She's giving you. Yeah, what is making up her point value? She her beetle like she's a bully Yeah, like that's what she should be doing on the table is bullying. Sure. She's a bad bully right now Right. That's something you don't spend 680 points on a bully Right. Yeah, she's a late game Round three round four round five You know after hopefully you remove some of the pieces that can take her off the board And she's managed to survive in that process. She's a late game push. Sure. Oh, you think she's an early game What I'm saying is is that like oh, that's not good enough. We have lost the game already at that point. Right. Well, absolutely Yeah, that's Not worse 680 points. I agree with it. What she's doing for her 450 points right now is dying Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean traditionally Yeah, you would have when rounds by magic was More interesting and the the woods had the footprint that you do You were chucker in the middle if you could have two to three wild woods And you would triple cast or forecast with cops rerolling saves and your rousing woods Your your throne of vines with uh, maybe spell portal chucking metamorphosis keeping her Yeah, trying to keep her alive in the back screened off by dry adds And she can do a little bit of that still but not even remotely as well And the game is more damaged output or ranged output. Uh, yeah, it's She's not joking aside. She's one of the coolest models they made Yeah, just ever she's absolutely gorgeous. The beetle's amazing. Her she looks incredible Like a laureate whole south is is so gorgeous It is an absolute pinnacle of model making. Okay This is what part of the reason we all play this game is because we love these these little plastic toys Yeah, and her model is so beyond gorgeous Right and it is a tragedy a tragedy Joke aside, I mean, I know I know I know we have this ongoing little joke But I really hate That she doesn't get played and I don't get to see her on the table because if you're playing this army of her You should want her on the board like iron jaws aren't You know, they they iron jaws aren't always not putting mega bosses on maw crush on the board They're defining centerpiece, right? And yeah, are there armies without it? Sure, of course, and they're perfectly fine And that's great. I'm not saying she should be in every force. I'm saying she should be a completely viable option Yeah Which she is not Absolutely, so like narratively. Yes. Yes So another you mentioned healing a while back. I wanted to bring that up. I think then she said that She's on Is she on 150 ml round the 160 160 that's what she's on the mega bosses base Yeah, the biggest one. Well outside of Outside, there's a bigger one outside of the non-existent bigger base. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah The big dragon or whatever Yeah, no, so you mentioned healing in the hero phase and yeah, that's certainly what I've found If if your durability is coming in the form of healing in the hero phase, you might have a problem So this army can have real issues with durability Yeah, it has turn-off that a rerolling saves tree lords ancients derthu die easily filarial drycha all the big big boys or girls die easily Dryads outside of the reminds want to hit die easily even with that There's a lot of things in the game that can blow through them. Everything else dies Army doesn't have that much durability really, you know, vertus harmony can bring back dethrou models That's not many they can bring back a turn-off. That's nice It's a seven a cast though. So it's not that much. It's not that reliable unless you're stacking throne Which you're not because of you know, unless you're you know, anyway, so How do we get, you know, what do you guys thoughts on getting more durability? Which generally I would say the army needs more durability Then relying on its healing mechanic right now. You should it be replenishing models Or should it be like if you're within range of a wildwood you get to bring Every model in range of wildwood gets to heal a worms Within certain range or gets my answer is I think I solved it with the current off. That's your answer I would say this Like Tyler, I don't disagree with you if there was ever an army that should be regrowing models. It should be Sylvaneth Because like even death Like, yeah, I know, you know, like raising more on dead. Well, like where are those coming from? Are there more bodies like sure Where are all these bodies the soil and edged down in the soil in the mortal realm? So apparently just just bodies all the way down. Yes all the way down Whereas like Sylvaneth like legitimately they could be regrowing especially if they're near their own wildwoods, right? um, and so like Uh, I would be okay with some type of like model regen in the arm Sure, I know I understand Vince's statement about current off, but Yeah, I if you want the regen aspect turn turn turned up Then the answer is in somewhere and you we you know, I don't know where you stick this But somewhere you give them the bellicor ability from the legion of the first prince Sure, which is you spend a command ability and you roll for every unit of x y and z on the table and on three plus You heal d three models. Yep Yep, right and it's one command point to do it board-wide like that's that's bellicor's army and the legion of the first prince You know his is restricted to all like the key worded of bloodletters and plaguebearers and daemonettes and and uh Uh horrors So, you know, it's not like you can do everything in chaos, but right you can do secret chariots as I pointed out Or blood crushers or whatever, you know, because those I'll still have the keyword So in the same way here, I would just restrict it to the whatever you feel is appropriate to do Like certainly the tree revs the spite revs and the dry adds at minimum and probably the current off as well because it would be Call and because you're not it's automatic. You're still making it all three up and you just it's a command point It's army-wide probably and again, I don't know where this happens. Does it happen in a battalion? Does it happen? I don't I wouldn't want it to be in one of the groves I know that for sure because that would I wouldn't want to limit it off like that Yeah, you know the builds It could be on a particular hero like that could be a larryl's new command ability that might be too too much to pack onto her Just mean like I don't the only way to get that getting her might kind of suck, you know, you could Yeah, there's there's places you could put it, but it should show up somewhere Yeah, that sounds like to me. I would put on the true that ancients the true that ancient is the sort of centerpiece non-name character War scroll of the army It's sort of the I'd say this you know the leader centerpiece of the army sure Sure, and right. Yeah right now. He the spirits on real one save that used to be better It doesn't mean to be that interesting in the game particularly when you start for cp right now so maybe other ways to Anyhow, yeah, that might be interesting. Yeah And that would really hit your regeneration because again, it would be just pulsing out every turn all your units are getting a chance A bite at this apple wouldn't always happen. No, but like three up tends to be a nice number It's kind of the prayer number feels relatively balanced And and good, you know, like that that to me would be the right way to go the regeneration Yeah, yeah There's a few obvious ones in terms of like micro details Probably the thing that everybody has talked about is the true that ancient needs to be a two cast and two unbind That has systemic issues that create systemic problems with the book that the true that ancient is not two cast unbind Again, it'd be nice massive healing talent make that a five up I don't know do something that does it just make it completely random and almost never come up in any of your games There's the ongoing durability issue with true lord's true that ancients Let me jump in on the on the double the double caster of the true lord ancient I was against this for a long time okay Because I don't like the idea of just everything in the freaking game becoming a double caster All right and triple caster and whatever whatever I I just because I would just rather most casters were single casters. I'll be completely honest. Okay Uh, I just feels like it keeps magic more under control Well, this pandora box has been open already. Which is why I'm about to change my statement. Okay. Let's just let me get there. All right Because clearly we're just gonna hand this double cast To everybody and triple cast and quadruple cast Right. We're just we can't stop ourselves So it at this point the the the genies out of the bottle like yes There's it's inexcusable at this point at this point with what we've made double casters in the game It is madness that that thing is not a double caster If we if you would have went back a year I would still be of the same opinion right because that like the number of double triple and quadruple casters that have been Injected into the game or even like triggered double casters, you know things that if they once a game They can double cast or if they roll this they can cast again or or Whatever the number of those things that have been injected into the game is madness So I guess this is just what we're doing now Yeah, so yeah For better works and yeah I think about Warp seers I know there can be challenges making cross comparisons But look at least my view of vermin the vermin lords Two cast two on bind five plus feel no pain 12 wounds Okay, that definitely really helps with their durability. I'm especially on a warp seer. That's rolling saves That's probably that that's probably too much But at least that one's a little higher and point value relative to the corruptor and whatever So five plus feel no pain for true donation For derth I mean there you're either going to have to keep so like again derthi started 400. He's now 300 Yeah, you can see lists like triple derthu A laryl or triple derthu some bodies harvest bone green with glades plus two attack Harvest spoon artifact plus one attack whatever it is Rural wants to hit built in on the charge from harvest spoon and of course gyre strike Here's my big three derthus with artifacts I'm going to go to town on you and hope that I get stomps off play the stomp game. You know, but I mean, that's not that's cool That's fun. That's not necessarily a good answer That it doesn't say anything about the durability problem other than yeah checking more derthus At opponents. So, you know, anyway, what do you guys think about? The ongoing durability problem with the the big guys gross ancient tree lord derthu Well, I generally hate overwhelming amounts of durability Because it makes the game boring So Says most people Okay Because it's going to be no fun even for you tom when everybody's just not when everybody has just hit that durability level And we all show up at a game and roll dice each other for two and a half hours and nothing changes and then we go home That is truly the worst case scenario Like too much defense creeping into too much offense creeps in the meta. Everybody shows up blows up everybody else's models We all kill each other and have a good time And that's it and we all go home and like models died. We rolled dice for a purpose game states changed and things occurred Sure, the game gets too high d on d. What happens is we show up I roll dice at you you roll dice at me Nothing changes two and a half hours pass and then we pick up our toys and go to the next stupid table Where we do that again and that is patently worse Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I agree man. Absolutely. Yeah I'm I'm that being said, okay I'm Susceptible to to what you're what you're laying down here, right? Which is that these like these special big tree pieces who clearly seem to be like they're supposed to be tough They're supposed to be ancient, right? But they're not my answer would be leave them with the mortal wound achilles heel But make them better on their actual saves by just having like the ancient the regular tree lord and dirthu all just naturally All just naturally re-roll all their saves or something like that all the time Okay, or even Again, even maybe even a two plus save base as long as there's not a way to Bump that to a one plus. I'm very against the two plus save for anything except this anything Well, it's certainly something that they are made of wood that is a tank made of steel If it's not a two plus you're not a two plus That's the rules. I read the three little pigs and the house of sticks gets blown down All right, come back when you're made of bricks and we'll talk about your two plus Well, we roll saves would get the job done Yeah, like so I yeah, I think just making them three or every roll. Well, sure. So they're like they're very resilient Especially to like low rend attacks. Yes. Cool. Like that's a neat thing Uh, I think that would be good. Oh, that's a really nice suggestion I gotta I gotta shout out mani wolters here in the comments Who said they could have an exception to the cover rule where they could actually gain cover in wild woods because they are Trees amongst trees that could be a good solution. That's kind of a cool. That's a cool thing. I dig that. I like that I can see that You could even make them. Well, if we want to go super far, this might be too far But okay You could effectively give them almost like a version of the garrisoning rules In the in the in the woods, right? Where when they step into the woods, they effectively garrison the woods So that they are neg one to be hit the plus one to save But they also can treat all of the woods as like something they can see out of It would be really weird when melee attacks come back on them because then you could attack them If you touched any part of the woods So, I mean like it would I'm just saying like something like that could be an interesting direction to go I there's obviously like rules picadillos, but like it would make sense that they would literally possess the woods They step into Right, right Yeah, because I don't think they necessarily need a lot more durability But just live it. Well, if you take the tla right now, you're in my opinion You're taking the ancient in particular outside of dreadwood Principally for the auto wildwood You generally need that and yeah, you're and Yeah, so even if he dies later on it's not necessarily the end of the world as long as you can get that wood out Before he dies and then yeah derthu again You can take you can get durability in the form of three derthus But that doesn't really seem but yeah, it's not gonna necessarily take a lot The other thing with derthu is his damage. I mean he drops off of course By 50% Way too fast It's three wounds and he's his output is cut in half. Yeah I I do not like that his sword which is like one of the coolest Again super cool model super cool looking dude cuts an awesome silhouette on the board with that big old sword And like chopping for six is real scary and then he gets three wounds on him. It's like, okay. Okay. Yep Yeah, yeah, so that would be a way of Yeah, helping with I mean that might be an answer to instead of increasing durability increase Offensive output. Sure. Absolutely with him. It feels like that would be the right answer Because that's what he's like if anything the ancient is meant to be survivable and a better caster and that would be his role And the and erthu is meant to be your your Your bully that goes and punches stuff in the face real hard And and again, this is another classic case when you look at derthu's damage chart It's another classic case of that symmetry coming into play because it goes six D6 D6 D6 D3 I used the wrong fingers for that sorry six D6 D6 D6 D3 Whereas it should have been they looked at that and they're like, ah Perfect balance when what it should have obviously been is six six D6 D6 D3 Right because then at least he'd have to go to five wounds before Uh, he started dropping off in damage, right? Right, right So uh tree lord you want to talk about him? I oh, I want to talk about the tree lord so bad, buddy I super do that's not even a joke. Okay. What are tree lords right now 160? 180 they started that Yeah, 2016 I think they were 240 Anyway, yeah, they've they're now to 180 240 or yeah, that's good comedy right there too All right The problem with the tree lord is he sits right in the space of what we were talking about earlier. He is worthless Right, and I don't mean that in any way of like His points per value or what he can accomplish or whatever because I actually like some of his abilities I would say the principal reason that you're taking him is For the 75 chance at a stomp. Yep. That's exactly right 50 to 75 Yeah, go go for the double stomp Yep, he has an extra stomp You know and look that stomp ain't bad Yeah, right. It's really not like you have a it's it's at the start of the combat phase So people can other asm people will jump around you And and you know hit you before you can stomp them. So that's fine. That can happen, right? But At the same time He like his damage is so so so so so so so very swingy, right? Uh, because it's you know only neg one rend and yes, it's d6. So sometimes he'll actually roll up and and do a fair bit of damage Uh, especially because of low on wounds and sometimes he'll roll up and just do absolutely Yeah, I think on average you're looking at like five and a half against a four up save With no no special, you know, we were ones or winterly exploding sixes or anything. It's like, yeah, it's around five five and a half Right, right, which for a 180 point model is pretty lame Feels underwhelming for the same cost as another unit. Yes, that feels underwhelming, right? Or almost 20, uh brain brain Uh, it's fights. Yeah. Yeah, sure sure so like Beyond the fact that the tree lord has foundational problems as all monsters of his ill can do we discussed it in detail earlier when we got into it, right? Yeah Is that like When I say he's worthless. I mean in the meta concept of the game. He's bad at taking objectives He's bad at dealing damage. He doesn't have any functional purpose right Whereas a hero in certain objectives will win those those games But we'll always be able to fire off command abilities or cast spells or do other things that are useful Right, even even if you're not on place of arcane power duality of death or something like that where you need to have a hero They're still running around doing command abilities and making people, you know Not fleet of battle shock and riro wants to hit just useless stuff or useful stuff. Sorry. Yeah, I apologize, right? whereas the Uh Whereas regular monsters like this Just don't do anything like he has the stomp as you mentioned, right? And That's kind of it. He can he's kind of mobile and then he can kind of walk around through woods In addition to your other would walk. Yeah, he's a free teleport. It's just cool That's a cool thing Read the free teleport combo with the limitation. I've only been on the teleport one Non true of non tree lord. They're through ancient through the woods unless you're dreadwood. Yeah Let me ask the question. Should this guy just be a hero? That would help a lot Or I mean you gotta if not Really bump up his damage output like considerably I would think that would be my initial inclination make him really scary, you know legitimately scary for 180 points Uh, he's got a three inch reach so we can swing over the top. He can be interesting So that's nice. Keep the four plus stomp. Again a four plus stomp does have it's like playing slanish Yep, am I gonna risk the biscuit to go up that keeper even that uh exalted deathbringer chariot, which screwed me with allereal They rolled the five plus crap. I'm screwed You know, so that's that's a legitimate threat That can that can change your opponents decision making. It's uh, but yeah, I don't know. I'd say maybe bump up the damage Yeah, I think there's one of two ways to go. Let's let's let's let's do a little thought experiment here I'm gonna add the key word hero Okay onto this guy's scroll Okay, but he's not gonna take up a leader slot Okay, you understand understand. He's like karnak or you know, there's other heroes. Okay, what does that do for him? He's now he can now actually use all like I'm not gonna give him a command ability And you're not gonna give him an item because other people are gonna have your items Maybe maybe not he could take an item now. That's a thing that he could he could now do whatever whatever I'm we're doing a thought experiment here. Okay I know what it gives him is the ability to take an item and to and to use command abilities Okay, he's not taking a leader slot. So I'm not changing that around right It makes lords it makes lords of the clan more interesting the battalion Where you have to take at least one true lord Is he now worth 180 just by that addition because of because he actually has some utility because he can cheaply follow He's a cheap option. It's certainly tougher than most of your other heroes That is to say at that point's value at a sort of, you know toughness per raw point Right to follow around your units that you need to be like supporting as you mentioned like obviously turn off Anywhere and just absorb how many wounds are these? 12 wounds on three up same Yes Oh, I I would even still be tempted to bump into 160. Sure. I could see that. Yeah Same same. Yeah, um, but I could see him at 180 in some builds Um Is he gaining a command ability or not? No, I mean he can use all the standard command abilities, but I'm making him like a karnak type hero Where he has the hero keyword. He can use that stuff. He's not a leader. So he has no he has no printed command ability on there You know, honestly if we were rewriting like I would much rather drop him down to 10 wounds and take him off the chart Like like like the uh, here's another parallel like the um the uh Make him the llama cat or the ogre right the former right crusher or something like that No, I was even in a site uh from daughter to kane the uh, the idol of kane. Oh, sure Avatar of kane. Yeah. Yeah, because it's like we're sitting around that what eight to ten wounds. No, no Upper pile. Yeah, but I think that thing never gets played. So I'm not sure it's the best comparison But but that's my point is that you're already playing in that space like you're like It doesn't hurt to actually like design into that and then try to make that worthwhile. Sure. Sure. Yeah Yeah, and I take back the idea of necessarily going to damage output because I mean that's Dorothy's territory, right? So that's not really a good answer either. I didn't be utility Let him be a durability utility piece at 160 Sure, and then like to me I I don't hate the Uh, I I don't hate the idea of him being that kind of a hero. Classically, this should be a hero It feels like something that's heroic Uh, because it is this big sentient single creature, right? Whatever we've defined hero as in this game It feels like he's in the qualified space for it But he himself is not leading forces hence not hence no leader Right. That's that's where my brain is at It if you wanted to give him some other interesting thing you could give him a small utility piece where Uh, it's not a command ability Give him like the little skinky priest type abilities where you know at this turn He can do this thing and pick a unit of these guys and buff them, right? Like he can pick dryads and and just make them do a thing So he's kind of like the dryad friend, right? He's meant to sit behind them and swing over the top and we run around with them and help them be Stable wherever they are, right? Yeah So you know then that then you hold him at 180 in the same way that like In the same way there's a lot of other heroes that have kind of an innate Sort of synergy with with particular units or stuff like that, right? Right And it feels like if he was going to align with any unit you've got dry chill lining with the spikes Right the and and it feels like he would be really good to align with the dryads. He's a big tree. They're little trees. Yep There you go I like that and that could be an interesting utility Uh, so this reminds me of the I don't know if there's anything I was going to say about him But there's also the branch which which is in that same category of not really having a home at the moment Right and when I was thinking about the the branch which one thing that stood out is We don't really have any synergy between the branch which and the other two household units. So households clan or whatever they call it, you know, there's the household the forest folk the outcast these yeah, these different subcategories Twitch tree lord or tree lord and tree revs are in household We've got a battalion, but branch which doesn't have any synergy on the table with those two, right? So that seems yeah, it could be a really good opportunity Uh, the narrative is a branch which is the one that is there to Use the her scythe to recover the what do they call it the lamentiri like the soul Yeah, and then to replant them in soul pods So I would think well, maybe you know the tree lords and the tree revs would Get buffs by protecting the branch which If she's in range of them. Yeah, because they would rather Lay down their lives so that she could recover them rather than her dying. She's the lynchpin. Yeah. Yeah, she's she's the uh Whatever that whatever the model is out of 40k that walks around and grabs gene seeds. That's what she is Yeah, yeah, whatever that that thing is. I don't know I don't know 40k space marine things. Um So There you go. Okay. Yeah, I just know that the that that that thing exists Yeah, so there you go. Oh, yep. There you go. Somebody actually said she's in a poppy area in the comments right there That's funny And that was before probably they heard us say it so All right, um, you can maybe make her a little puncher in combat. She's which seems a little I don't know. I guess I guess that's appropriate. You know make make her a little bit more punchy as a wizard They're never going to be I I don't care their melee should always be Unimpressive and so yeah, it's fine. It's like whatever. Yeah Um, try it seem pretty solid to me spite solid tree revs should be threes to hit. I think I don't really get why they're forced to hit. They're supposed to be the equivalent of You know what they call like the the echoes of the protectors of old so thinking of sisters of the watch thinking of One of those Black guard the phoenix guards, you know threes threes sure And you're still getting what five wounds for 80 points Five wounds any points? Yeah to tax each Yeah, my two damage on the on the champ I I don't think moving them to three threes and threes in any way breaks that breaks the game like Yeah, it's fine. I'm with that. I mean, they're also on a five up save. So like yeah, they're exactly so But it would make 10 tree revenants actually interesting because you could Put plus one attack on them. They got a six inch pylons. You could do pylon tricks. You you know potentially Finish a charge one mile a half inch on a corner Put the rest outside of whatever the pylon plus reach range is so if it's two inch reach with a Three inch pylon put them outside of five inches and then that way you can potentially save them You don't have to activate them first and they can't die in the in the meantime Yeah, you could actually have enough output. I think with threes to threes But right now it's just it's not good enough for the point investment Or at least for 10 of them and then five of them can often do absolutely nothing Like they're not a reliable way to kill a violent hero. Right. Sure. We're just fighting them. Yeah Yep All right. So what is there anything else? I mean, I think this is all positive stuff The question is at the end of this we can get lost in the details. So I want to kind of swing back up to the top, right? Sure Which is to me The sort of Fundaments here isn't that they lack good bones. I think the bones of this are are relatively strong I think what they seem to lack at least in my estimation is the like the Proper How do I want to say this it's not really shenanigans It's the proper ability to compete in the spaces they need to compete in Everything they can do is just a little bit worse than everybody else who's doing that thing Yeah, yeah, they can shoot but it's pretty bad and they often block them stuff themselves up Should the wild woods not block our line? Well, I guess if you remove the wild woods you take that away except for that initial one Yeah, I mean right now. Yeah, they block our own damn spells You have to be right next to the model you want to keep with regrowth, you know with an inch of it in wood So see it. Yeah, I mean Yes, obviously there should be some change of that where like certain models are ignoring it or whatever or yeah I mean, I it's it's so silly the the woods are just like a pile of silliness sitting on it's a it's a it's a seven layer dip of bad Right. Okay, and every every layer you dig into with that nacho is just more and more bad Um We haven't talked about cp generation I mean that's another thing that it's holding it back right now Like if you actually just had a way to give us a few more cp That would help our competitiveness a fair amount that would make a difference Uh, but we're pretty sorry for cp right now. You at best you're doing for cp You're buying one you're taking like a double outcast and you're getting one first turn and Yeah, I mean that could be by the way just like so If it was me we'd take the woods and I'd cut the the Arouse the woods thing and I'd cut that you charge into it and you get damage because I just I hate rules like that I hate little things that you just forget I those those need to be just if if I was editing I'd just be like nope. Nope. Nope I'd be striking through all sorts of stuff like that these random little triggers of of occasional value Get rid of them. I don't need them. I want stuff that's at the top of mine I I do not do not do not want okay Uh, so just like right away fire that off the roof um I would also get rid of by the way the places of power thing out of there that like you can pick a certain thing And and you're just immune to battle shock around it, which drives me completely insane that they Thought has they were writing the allegiance abilities Hey What if we have them affect One of the pieces of terrain that's on the board And when they didn't connect the dots to go wait a minute What if they just make that a wood no instead you make it this like Oh Put a rule in where you pick an existing piece of terrain And you just for some reason get to be immune to battle shock. Well, he doesn't need to be there There's nothing about this army like and look I understand maybe that's sometimes useful You can pick a big piece of terrain. You can be battle shock immune. It's actually quite nice Yeah, with how the army plays right now. I I agree. I fire it off the roof There's nothing in selvanet that says that's appropriate for them to have okay And instead what I would give them is something like spirit song Where they do have more ability to generate command points because with command points You could then actually do, you know, you can use more immune to battle shock if you need to Right, but you also can do other things as well And like by the way that this is where I would stick spirit song Spirit song would be a command point thing. Okay And if I was I'll I'll I'll write this off the top of my head So here's how I do spirit song in the first round the spirit song is weak The starting of your first battle round your your turn in the first battle round You get an extra grand point on a five up in round two It's four up in round three and beyond it's three out Okay, that's interesting right and it's just like as they get more in tune Yeah, they're able to generate more like they're able to command each other and be more in sync because that's what spirit song is supposed to be Right, it's all of them harmonizing together and like as that chorus grows So increasing their command points through that mechanic actually Makes sense to me And you could play with that number if you don't like my exact spread, but you get that you get Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it seems like it'd be really nice to have a core mechanic around spirit song That's really meaningful. Yeah, and generating command points seems to be something one This army really needs to this army would really want and three which would also then help cover the battle shock thing I just jessened that made no sense and doesn't need to be there Yeah, yeah, that's nice um, one thing we haven't talked about is surprisingly is bows the eternal debate on bows which I They are I'm sorry. I mean, they're they're mostly useless right now in my opinion I know chris welfare loves them and was talking them up on his mortally wounded podcast and it's this eternal debate But at 200 points, uh, they don't they they're just entirely unreliable They have look out sir. They get locked up in combat. Yeah, yeah, it's like an endless list of crap. Sure So but they there's still the ongoing issue of cities of sigmar with the hurricane Which was the original reason as far as I can tell why bows went up Or sorry. Uh, yeah, it went from 180 200 in the in 2017 or 2016 gh whatever it was doing 17 gh So, yeah, what do we do to bows we move them down 20 points Uh 180 Yeah, maybe I I mean do they still have their line of sight blocked by with their own by their own woods Let's say no Okay 180 and their own woods don't block their line of sight. How about that? That seems reasonable Yeah, I mean like I like their numbers being where they are the bows do work It's just it's just they're very likely you're very likely to get yourself into a situation where they don't Yeah That's the problem like when you're able to actually Bring that firepower to bear It could do some good work The problem is just how often that doesn't end up happening like they have a heck of a range 30 inches is not A short range that is a very very long range gun that out ranges most ko weapons Yeah, and So like their range is really good Yes, they hit on fours But yes, you know, there are ways that you can play and mitigate some of that and have some re-rolling shangians and whatever whatever and Attacks and yada yada. So like it's not that there's nothing you can do with that number Yeah, even just I think yeah, I think it does to me It does mostly come down to the fact that you can no longer just put them in woods and screen them and have them as a threat As a swingy threat Especially when you combine real ones to hit from the arch-revenant that would be older than 12 I I still think ultimately the shooting strat like bunkering in the woods and sitting there shooting people is not a great way to win games right like Like ultimately most games just don't get one like that. Yeah um So moving them to 180 and letting them shoot out of their woods seems like a fair square deal to me Right, then then they would have a purpose They can be a bunker unit that sits back there and protects and provides some artillery fire effectively The silver neth version of that for a sort of mixed arms where you've got other things going up front Yeah, I would also I used to use them a lot as uh frontline Ambles as additional frontline ambles Meaning yeah that but that was in a game where it was easier to keep them whole In teleport range of the woods you were not limited to one teleport You were not dealing with without sir You're not dealing with having to have them locked up in combat shoot at the unit that they're engaged with Anyway, I mean, yeah the game's very different now. So I don't know if that would work as well But yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, that was generally that would help. Yeah, I mean, I think that's really the simple answer Right, you fix the fundamental flaw and you change their points lately and there you go And they're perfectly viable as an interesting choice right so All right, anything else we want to say about silvaneth gentlemen No, I mean, I think that that I think a lot of that captures a lot of the the issues um I mean, I think a lot of the solutions the problem sitting kernaught that I just think kernaught aren't in a good spot sure Sure Yeah, there you go Yeah, uh make it here just to get get it back to where it's a viable combined arms army with the Well, it feels like that's kind of what it was meant to be when you look at the scrolls Yeah When you again because it does feel like a jack of all trades type of army where it wants to be doing a lot of things The problem is right now It really can't push into any of those and be good at any of those that's that's what i'm saying like Somebody is always beating it on multiple fronts at the same time Yeah, and it's dominant competitive playstyle right now is a bit of the house of cards To my house of cards with what it relies upon. Yeah, the sequencing events that need it I mean you also have sort of express challenges that'll probably arise in the meta where you have really strong saves coming into the meta Which makes which highly lowers the value of spikes Right, like spikes do well in a low armor meta there. They tend then that's a big power piece right now That's gonna in the more three up Blah blah high defense Spikes value just drops like a rock I mean, I know they're super cheap, but they're just super cheap dead guys If they because if you bounce them up against obr Or you know, some of the different Some of the different things out there Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and there's not a lot of ways to generate one of wounds Particularly, you know, just range of water wounds in the army That was a nice change of swords popping the the sixes in addition Sixes to wounders immortal in addition regular damage. That's nice kind of felt bowers real all wounds So you have more chance to generate the mortals there But yeah, not a lot of ways to cost effectively generate water wounds in the army right now Particularly from ranged Um, so yeah, that's that's something of the challenge cool All right guys. Well, I think we did it. We fixed silvaneth. There you go Side note, I would love to hear people I You're doing some tts games see if you can convince the people to let you try the alternate woods Yeah, I will and see how much of an effect that has in the game I and anybody out there in the audience I would love if you're getting a tts gamer in or a gaming in real life You know, talk to your opponent if they're your friend and say, hey, here's this crazy thing It's not obviously it's not the official rule We just kind of want to give it a try because vince at work weekly is wanting feedback on this So play a couple games I really really really am legitimately curious to understand how this plays because everything's good in theory, but that's you know Uh, where the rubber meets the road is where do I want to be tested? So, uh, you know, I've got a silvaneth force right there. I'll decked out and ready to go Uh, which by the way, I would play if the woods were jettisoned as a concept I really love my silvaneth army that I painted I never play them because I refuse to play with the woods in the way they're playing That's it. They they are allies for my cities of sigmar They are they are a living city army. There you go. That's the right way to say it whole thing That's it. I will never use them for anything else until I fix the wood problem right There's still a bit of the the magic getting shut down Uh, you know, at least right now with the way that wildwood generation works Acorn Holythin 12 very limited foot range footprint range Ancient you only get one if you have two ancients, you're not getting two while you only get one And then yeah, so you're still stuck Generally with the need for like spell portal or at least bell ones make it a holy within 30 Uh to get those woods out, but but yeah, it might help. Um, it does it it helps on the uh Opponent zoning issue. I would be really interested to see just what that one changed Yeah, right because I'm I mean that's science, right? Like you you don't you don't change 50 variables to do an experiment you change one Let me see what happens, right? And if I was going to change one variable that would be the one and I'd see what the difference became All right. Yeah, I'll give it a go man. Cool. Well, thank you very much everybody for watching I hope it's fun. Tyler brother as always absolute pleasure Absolutely. Thanks guys. Hey glad to have you on. I'm glad we were able to talk trees Uh, it's it I do Love this army. I just hate playing against it because of some of the fundaments. We've talked about mainly the woods mainly the woods So for all of you out there watching, I hope you enjoyed this go ahead and hit that like button It's as easy as moving your mouse from here over to here. Look at that. It's just here to here click Just that that motion just do that real quick hit that like it helps other people find the show and I really appreciate it uh because you know, so it's uh, it's always nice to grow the audience and to talk to more people and to bring more people into the Hobby so thank you very much for watching. Uh, I had a really great time on this one and as always We'll see you next Wednesday