 welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. Think Tech Hawaii. And today, even with all the things that are going on that make celebrating and being thankful more challenging, we have a somewhat celebratory show. This one's about Juneteenth. And there are things about it that require reflection and appreciation. Hey, not just the fireworks. So with us today, retired judge Sandra Sims, retired law professor Van Davis and still visiting professor at the University of Washington and Lee School of Law and mediator arbitrator and coach business coach Tina Patterson. Welcome folks. So thank you. Sandra, you grew up in Chicago. Was there something different than Juneteenth that you experienced growing up that's still going now? We were just talking about that and I'm excited about all the Juneteenth celebrations and associations of culture. And I remember and I was kind of thinking about what we didn't celebrate Juneteenth. I didn't know about Juneteenth until relatively recently. But we did have a celebration in Chicago that's actually been going on for 93 years now called the Bud Billigan Day. And it was an opportunity for black folks in the Chicago community. It was a huge parade. It was put on by the Chicago Defender newspaper. And it just kind of celebrated culture. The parade was huge. And well, it might, you know, kids. So everything, you know, it's huge, you know, and thereafter there were picnics. It was in the Washington Park, which is, you know, one of the big city parks. So I remember that as being one of the ways in which we, you know, celebrated culture because, you know, there was educational exhibits. And of course, the people in the parade, you see all the, you know, the bands from the high schools and the, you know, because high schools had bands in those days. And they actually participated. But it was, it was, you know, it was just for us, it was like the high point of the summer, kind of getting ready to get back to school was the Bud Billigan Day. So I was just, you know, reflecting on that as ways in which we've celebrated culture, you know, in our black communities and different ways. Juneteenth is one thing that's really, you know, come to quite prominence in the, you know, in the last few years for me. But then yeah, there were those events. And I'm sure there are other events in other parts of the country, people who've celebrated different aspects of black culture. So we had that connection. So yeah, that was what I was remembering. Juneteenth is great though. This is good. And tell us a little bit about the Defender, which a lot of the people watching this may not be well aware of. The Chicago Defender was probably one of the first, most well known of the African American black community newspapers. And when I was growing up, it was, you know, you got that like the year we get the, you know, get the advertiser, you get the Defender along with the, you know, with the traditional papers, the Sun Tides and the Tribune. But you had the Defender as well. And most black families that I knew, everybody got, you know, got the Defender as well. Because that's how you kept up with what's going on in the black community. I mean, they reported everything. In fact, one of the most memorable front pages of the Defender, which I still remember to this day, was the photograph that they posted of In the Chill in, without any, it was traumatizing. I still remember that. And I was like, a little kid, I remember that. Yeah. I remember seeing that in Jet. I remember. Yeah, I was in, yeah, yeah. Jet was one of the Johnson publications, but the Chicago Defender was the paper that actually published that full on picture. And it's, you just checked the Jet still, the Defender is still being published online, but Chicago Defender still. So what was the role of the Defender in the great migration of so many black people from the South to the Northeast, to the Midwest, to the West over many decades? Oh, absolutely. Because they reported on everything that, I mean, it was like, they were in the black community telling about everything that was taking place from the churches or the communities, from the people. And of course, the not so nice things that people did to one another, the crime and stuff, that was it. But it was like, if you wanted to, it was not sure, and it wasn't sugarcoated. And then there were the social things that they reported, the entertainers and all of that was in there as well. But it was, I mean, it was like, it was the thing you had to have, I guess, when I was caught up, that was, you know, like you had, I know BJ mentioned the jet and you didn't have your jet and your ebony magazine. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But back in the day, my dad worked for Johnson Publication as a roving photographer. So we used to go to Chicago. He used to be in Chicago a lot. But I was, I'd heard, I was listening to a show, which we were talking about the Green Book, and that before the Green Book, the Chicago Defender would have, you know, sort of these little sections about where you could go, where you could not go, you know, this, when blacks were traveling, you know, it was this part of the sort of the service that was done, you know, this is where you could stay, this is where you couldn't stay, you know, that kind of stuff. So it was a really powerful force in the, in the community. I didn't learn much about Juneteenth, when I was, say, you know, the elementary school, except I remember learning about, I think it was in fifth or sixth grade about the fact that the people in Galveston, Texas, the enslaved people there didn't learn about two years later that they were free. And for me, the probably the more moving things had been later in life learning that there was the general, general Granger, who was the guy who showed up and announced it. But among the troops that were with them, where there were regiments of colored soldiers, you know, and so when I try to think of myself, I think of myself as the slave, okay, in Galveston, as some kid is the slave there, imagining seeing these colored soldiers in the Union uniform would have been like seeing aliens from Mars, you know, I mean, just what the heck, you know, what the heck you know. And then these guys come walking and they have, you know, they've got rifles and all that stuff. And they're saying to me, you're free, you know, I say, what, you know what I mean, like, I can see people's heads popping off at the unbelievable, that must have been such an emotionally amazing moment for those, for the folks, you know, just to have that and to, you know, you've got the general, of course, but also to actually just see free black soldiers must have been something, you know, really. Yeah, really something. Yeah, that kind of, kind of gives me a little bit of chicken skin, they're just thinking about it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't know what it was like for you, Tina growing up, was it, how was it with Juneteenth when you were a little girl? Growing up didn't know about Juneteenth. I actually found out about Juneteenth when I lived in Northern Texas. And there were people in the community who, you know, was pockets of people who celebrated Juneteenth, much like we talked about before the session began. The first time I heard it, heard about it, I wasn't too keen that the idea that people were celebrating getting news two years later really didn't settle well with me. Yes. Interestingly enough, Chuck, we were here about this time last year when the Biden administration announced that Juneteenth was going to be a federal holiday. And I said something very similar, which was I didn't want the focus to be on the late delivery of the news, that people in Texas had gotten a late delivery of the news, that instead, hopefully we could focus on the resilience of those individuals who, and I'm sure as you said, Bennett, that there were some people who even once they got the news of freedom, still didn't believe it and couldn't, had to decide with, were they ready to really move on and do what they dreamed of? Could they make that dream a reality? And it's that piece that I hope we could focus on. I know there's also individuals who think of Juneteenth as being a second independence day. So I'm not in that crowd. I would prefer to think of July first or second. And it's because of the civil rights act being, to me, an independence day for people. But so, yeah, growing up, I grew up in New England the most part. I'm a military. But we, Juneteenth really was not part of my discussions until, I'd say in the 90s, when I lived in New York, Texas. And even then it was very small scale, families getting together with people. And now we see this year, jurisdictions, not just in the United States, but globally celebrating Juneteenth. Chuck, thank you for sharing with us the National Geographic article from 2021, talking about a community in northern Mexico that was instrumental in the Southern Underground Railroad. It's fascinating to see this connection, again, that spirit of resilience. And maybe that's one of the important lessons for all of us, is that we do have holidays that are dedicated to losses and tragedies. Yes. Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and others. And to the service of people, but to the service of those people who have been lost. Yeah. And so maybe one of the things, if there's a coalescing healing direction to this, maybe what can we learn from having this placed in front of us with prominence, at least once a year? And maybe the opportunity to learn about things like the defender, the great migration, the two and a half year delay in getting word to people in the Confederate States that African Americans were in fact free, were no longer allowed to be held as slaves as property. So are there current lessons for us now, things that we still need to learn and prioritize that Juneteenth can help make us aware of? Well, I'll take a stab at that one. I think one of the things for us to learn today is just how useful it is to have an inclusive version of American history for all Americans as they come up through their elementary, junior high and high school experience. And rather than being sort of in a situation of resistance to any part of that history, but it's really just to give a sense of the complexity of it. And like one of the things that really struck me, you mentioned Memorial Day, and I only learned recently about, I guess it was right after the Civil War, and there were a bunch of Union soldiers who've been basically buried in mass graves somewhere, I think in Charleston, South Carolina. And there was an effort to remove them from their graves in this mass grave and give them property burials. And there was a parade on the occasion where there were all these children with flowers, black children with flowers, who were singing John Brown. And that was sort of part of the genocide. The idea of Memorial Day was from that honoring that was done by that. There's like 10,000 people back in 1865 or 1666 or something. That that was part of the genesis of the idea of Memorial Day. And when I thought of just imagine all these little kids with the packets of flowers and all these people being buried and people are putting flowers on the graves. To me, that's such a beautiful expression of patriotism, love for America and all that. That I didn't think those things would be nice to just share them, right? That that would be part of it. And we got a lot of bad history, but it's like, yeah, well, let's have all that. Because I just, to me anyway, it moved me enormously just the idea of these kids singing John Brown. Especially, I guess, when you think of the innocence of kids, I guess in all of our heads, there's those poor little kids in Uvalde and all that. And just imagine of kids that age singing John Brown. It's just made me cry when I first heard that story. Yeah. Yeah. It was very moving. Very moving. Yeah. And welcome, Louise. You're still on mute. So sorry to be late. Oh, you're never late. So Sandra, Ben and Tina, we're just giving us some background, not only on Juneteenth, but on the Ben Billiken holiday parade in Chicago, the Defender Periodical newspaper that played such a large role in the great migration of many Black families from the South to the Northeast, to the Midwest, to the West, and to building awarenesses. So one of the things that we were just starting to talk about is how can broadening and deepening the celebration of Juneteenth bring the awarenesses that are going to help us get through these really difficult divisive times. So stringing it on you, Louise, now joining us. Any thoughts on that? What do we need to be aware of that we've missed? I think that, well, I'm so sorry I missed everybody else. So I hope I don't repeat or say something crazy. But I do think that the storytelling and the history telling is so important. And thanks to Sandra and one of our past Think Tech panels, I've been listening on audible to the warmth of other sons, which has just been fascinating because I was not aware of the whole history of the migration and the decades that it took and all of the social implications. And it was an eye-opener. And I think people just need to there just needs to be more education and public education about this. I think one of the neat things about one of the silver line is of COVID was just more availability of virtual talks that we could all plug into. And among those were the talks about Black history that I think were just really important to me to learn about that aspect. And I think it's so important for history. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point that you said that. And I think what Tina had referenced earlier, the resilience, and I think that's also reflected in the warmth of other sons is one of those books that you, it's a long one, but you really need to delve into it. And it's interesting, I was in San Francisco a few weeks ago and working with some folks in the Bayview community. And one of the people there was talking about that migration into the San Francisco area. And he had not read of the warmth of other sons. And I said, Sam, you got to read that because it tells you that he was talking about folks coming there into the shipyards, into the working. And then the kinds of things they had with regard to the Chinese exclusion, all of that is happening in that Bayview area. I said, you got to read that because that explains really a lot of the movement there, and how those communities developed. It's, it's, it's, it really helps us, I think, to just understand the resilience of Black folks, minority communities in this country that have this history of just literally being trampled for the most part throughout their history. And to still be standing and to still be fighting and to still be persevering is, is honestly quite remarkable. I read a book, Mary and Edelman wrote a book some years ago called The Lessons to Her Sons. And one of the comments that she made, you know, her son's attorney 21, and she gave them lessons from being, you know, Black in America and one of the things she commented was that it was utterly exhausting to be Black in America. It was just exhausting, but this is what we need to do, you know. And that just kind of stayed with me that I, you know, for Black, many minorities just actually, yeah, the resilience is there. We have to have that because it is exhausting. And those are the great values of Isabelle Wilkerson's book, The Warmth of Other Sons, is that it systematically rebuts debunks and disposes of a lot of the myths that are actually the same myths that are being put out by the same people who are putting out the big lie now. They're coming from the right-wing sectors of society and they're used, like the Great Replacement Theory and others, to justify going back to times in which people were subjugated based on ethnic, cultural, skin color, and other factors that have no place in this country. And I think that's the importance of Juneteenth and other heritage events and months is that we need to fight back against this whole anti-critical race theory effort. And yes, we need to educate people, need to be aware, and it's not just, and not to place blame on the current generations, but to understand where we were and how we can move forward. You know, one of the things that I have also been following is the California Reparations Task Force because one of my local friends is the only non-Black, and he's Asian-American on the panel. And his, you know, what he often talks about is just why other minority communities, particularly Asian-American communities, need to care about this issue and how the Black community supported the reparations to World War internees and why Asian-American communities should support this reparations effort. And I think sort of emphasizing the ways that other, you know, diverse communities can support each other is important. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was in, what is it, 2013 was the 7th, 60th anniversary, 50th anniversary of the March on Washington. And I went down there and brought my kids with me, you know, so that they would sort of see that. And that was really amazingly beautiful with the variety of people coming together to celebrate that occasion. I remember, I mean, you know, what I mean is White people, Black people, Asian-Americans, Native Americans all, you know, and it was just, in Hispanics, it was just so beautiful, this kind of on the mall, all kinds of Americans, very relaxed, very sort of enjoying the music, being together. And it was really, really nice. It was like, for me, it was like a vision of the possibility of America, you know, where no one was trying to be hierarchical towards anybody else or something, you know. It was really, you know, quite, you know, that's the kind of hopeful scene. Unfortunately, you know, we're having a lot of people playing old tropes. I like to say there's nothing new under the sun, right? We're just regenerating another generation. I mean, when you saw that these 31 guys were arrested in Kirtland, Idaho, right? You know, they put up all their pictures, right? These are all young guys, you know, I mean, you know, it's like, they look like they're under 30 years of age, right? And I'm like, how is it possible to be 31 of you who would be regenerated one more time, the same old nonsense, you know? I mean, somebody asked me, how is this possible? I said, man, you got to ask their parents, you got to ask their parents. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, because it's like, did you all just miss that memo over the last 60 odd years of effort, you know, let alone the effort before, you know, the civil rights act at all. But this is where we've, you know, this is what we live with it. But anyway, I always remain optimistic, because I know a lot of nice people, you know, all kinds of nice people, you know, and their moments of when you see the gleam of the promise, you know, and that always moves me. I'm with you. I remain, I still remain optimistic as well. And I think there are all those kinds of, well, we don't see them necessarily in the media, but I think those things, those kinds of events are occurring in our communities. People are coming together and sharing things and sharing, like Louise mentioned, sharing the stories and understanding each other. I think it's happening. We don't always see it, but it's happening. And I am like, you encouraged by that. I think we're going to, I think we're going to be okay. And maybe one of the things that reprioritizing and emphasizing Juneteenth can help us learn is that in a country in which the Emancipation Proclamation was delayed for two and a half years for a huge portion of this country's population to even find out about it and find out that slavery was no longer allowed and freedom was decreed as a matter of law, that we still have that kind of progress to make in our learning and our understanding that HB 40 takes into account the study, the evaluation, and recommendations for reparations, California's undertaking. And maybe one of the things that this discussion helps us understand is reparations can take many forms, education, healthcare, support for learning and living and employment opportunities. So maybe what Juneteenth reminds us is the things about which we need to come together to learn and to find ways to improve our understanding and our action. Here here, here here. Last thought. Yes. Tina, Louise, Ben, Sandra. I'll say Chuck. If there's some hope for the Hawaiians out there, there's a video, actually for everybody really, of an interview with Senator Inui before he passed. Oh yeah. He talks about his entire life. Yes. I tell you that is such a moving story that he talks about. About the whole time, you know, the World War II times and things that he had to deal with. I really recommend that to everybody because, you know, like he used to say that he was a buffalo soldier, you know. And I was like, well, I don't know about that one. You know, that was another angle on sort of these interactions and intersections. But the actual stories he told in that video are just amazing. I mean, you know, everyone can just hear him talk about what he saw live through, you know. I'm going to look that up. I've heard some of what he's endured, as there were quite a few folks that are still living. Well, that is many from, you know, from that era who have some, you know, incredible stories to share about that experience. So yeah. I'll look it up. Yeah. Well, thank you all for this thoughtful exchange of ideas, of insights, and of reminding us that we do need to designate times and always to pay attention to what we can learn together, what actions we can take to support each other, and things that need to be made better for people who have been mistreated in so many ways for so long, and not to tolerate that kind of mistreatment and mistruth anymore. Thank you all. Ben, Sandra, Tina, Louise, you join us in two weeks. Thank you. We all will be back. We'll be here. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.