 Again, we're just letting everybody in. So we will start the discussion properly in literally just a minute. So just please be patient. You have a little bit of time to go and get your coffee or tea depending on where you are. And we will start in a minute. Okay, we already have more than a hundred people and it seems the numbers keep rising but it's already two minutes past the time we're supposed to start. So we're gonna go ahead. Hello everybody. Good morning, good afternoon or good evening depending on where you're logging in from. Welcome to the Land Dialogue Webinar Series. It is being organized in partnership with the Ford Foundation, the Land Portal Foundation, the Tenure Facility and the Thomson Reuters Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Thin. I'm a journalist specializing in food systems and climate change issues. And I'm delighted to be moderating today's session. Now this is the first Land Dialogue discussion for this year and we're gonna be doing things a little bit differently. What this means is that instead of having a 90 minute session we are going to have a 60 minute webinar. Now don't worry, there is time set aside still for Q&A and we're also going to be keeping a lookout for interesting questions that I'm sure will come up during the discussion and we'll see if we can fit them in even before the Q&A starts. Now the idea behind this whole webinar series is to raise awareness on the land rights of indigenous peoples and local communities. This is because these rights are a prerequisite to achieve national and international goals around many, many things. And those include forest governance, food security, climate medication, economic development and human rights. Now there will be four land dialogues in total this year and each one will be focusing on a different topic. Now before I get into today's discussion topic I would like to just go through a few housekeeping rules. First this webinar is in English but we have simultaneous translations in French, Spanish, Portuguese and Bahasa Indonesia. To access your translation all you have to do is to go to this little globe icon that you can see at the bottom of your Zoom window and you can click on it and then select the language that you want. Like I said earlier, the webinar will last 60 minutes. We have about 10, 15 minutes for Q&As. So if you have any questions please post them in the Q&A box and not in the check box. However, please use the check box to let us know where, who you are, which organization you belong to and where you're joining us from. Also please feel free to tweet using the dialogue, the hashtag land dialogues. That's just one word, hashtag land dialogues. And you can also follow the live tweets from land portal and tenure facility Twitter accounts. Finally, we're also recording today's session and we will share the link with all of you later. Now that we've gotten all of that out of the way, let's turn to today's topic. And that is taking data back, woman's sovereignty over land data. Now we so often hear these days about how important data is, right? That data is the new oil. So we want to better understand where the current model of data science is and whether it includes and reflects the realities of indigenous women and their land rights. We want to know whether they are able to participate in data collection and use, particularly when that data is about them and their land tenure. And if they can't participate, we want to know why and how this can be remedied, how they can take back control. Now it's important that we define a couple of key terms, before starting this discussion, because you're going to be hearing these terms throughout today's conversation. And the first term is indigenous data sovereignty or IDS for short. And this refers to the right of indigenous peoples to control data from and about their communities and lands, articulating both individual and collective rights to data access and to privacy. The second term is called data feminism. Now this is a framework for thinking about data science and ethics that is guided by ideas of intersectional feminism. The work of data feminism uncovers how standard practices in data science, how they serve to reinforce existing inequalities around the world. We're going to be sharing some of the links about these terms in the checkbox. So keep your checkbox open. Now I'm going to introduce you to our speakers who are going to help us understand the whole debate around data better and the interest of fairness. I'm going to introduce them in alphabetical order. Now, first we have Betty Rubio, who is a Quechua leader. Unfortunately, Betty is in the field at the moment and we haven't been able to reach her. So she might not be able to join us today. However, we do have Danik Puriati, who is director of Vishnu Foundation in Indonesia. Now Danik has been involved in grassroots activities for over 25 years and she's an expert when it comes to organizing local communities, village planning, customary village empowerment and community-based ecotourism. We then have Lydia Jennings, who is a Native American soil microbiologist and an environmental scientist. Lydia's conducted research on soil health, environmental remediation, indigenous science and environmental data ownership by tribal nations. Lydia's currently a presidential postdoctoral fellow at the School of Sustainability and the Nicola School of the Environment. And last but definitely not the least is Rudo Kemper, who is chief program officer at the Cadesta Foundation. Rudo's a geographer and a technologist and he has over a decade of experience supporting indigenous communities in mapping and monitoring their lands and also to build digital tools that increase community self-determination, access to land rights and land management capabilities. Now, I've already talked far too much. So I'm gonna turn to the experts and then ask them a couple of round of questions. And I really encourage them to respond to each other's answers and to build on them. My only request is to keep your answers to maximum two to three minutes. Now, again, to the audience, please use the Q&A box to send your questions and it would be great if you could also identify yourself and your organization. Now, Deneke, can I turn to you first? I would like you to sort of help us set the scene in terms of what is happening right now when it comes to data because you have extensive experience working with local indigenous communities. Can you tell us who is collecting this data? Who has access? Who doesn't? And what are some of the main problems? Deneke, can you hear me? Yes, I'm sorry, my internet is a rubble. No. Hello. Hello. Yes, we can. Thank you. Please go ahead. No problem. I was just asking Deneke to sort of help set the scene in terms of what's happening right now when it comes to data collection. Who's doing it? Who has access? And who doesn't? What are some of the problems that indigenous women in particular are facing right now when it comes to data? Thank you very much. I'm sorry I didn't turn on the video because the internet is not good here because I'm in the city. Thank you for your opportunity. Thank you. And also related to the land in Bali is not only economic or physical, but also related to social culture. And these things are actually what makes the question in Bali a private certification regarding the land that is in Bali. So, this causes a lot of access to land, especially women, and also the community of land. It also starts to get worse and it starts to get worse because of the investment in land that is still being built. That's probably from me. Thank you. And that's really helpful to give a very specific example from Bali. Rudo, can I bring you in because you've worked with a lot of indigenous groups. What are some of the problems you are currently seeing right now and what are some of the issues? Yeah, certainly. So thanks, Tim, and hi everyone. It's really great to be here with you today. Yeah, so thinking about this question of setting the stage, I think of a lot of my experience working with indigenous communities, especially in the Amazon region in South America, where the villages are very remote, and the community members have had limited access to technology. And I definitely, you know, what then I said around most of the initiatives have been government led until very recently, I see that happening in the Amazon as well. One of the more interesting recent trends is that you do start to see a lot of communities driven data collection processes taking place because community members have found the need to collect their own data or make their own maps to be able to counter the maps that either the government has, or that outside interests like extractive industries, you know, have, which shows a lot of data like concessions over the land, but it doesn't show any of the indigenous knowledge, or any of the communities perspective on what their land looks like. And so community members are starting to do more data collection, and some of that is also due to the increasing availability of, you know, easy to use smartphone applications for data collection and mapping. And that's really good. But there is kind of a disconnect and an incompleteness about the data cycle that I've seen that I think a lot more work needs to be done on because you have community members including women that are involved in data but then there's a gap once that data has been collected and has to be submitted somewhere to be processed. And that's where I start to see that a lot of the communities have less and less control or autonomy over that process because it has to be sent somewhere. The internet, for example, in which case if a community is remote or offline they don't have access to that data or there's a latency. They don't have access to it for months. Frequently an outside party like an NGO or a researcher or sometimes even the government has to get involved in helping process some of that data or analyze it. And so you start to see less and less control by the community over the data once it has been collected. So in terms of the data cycle there's still a lot of incompleteness and gaps. Also in terms of indigenous women, you know, their level of access to that data gets to be diminished as well as more dominant interest within the community might be the only parties that are receiving that data once it has been processed or collected as well. So I think there's some promising trends in terms of the increasing availability of access to data collection tools, but there's still a lot of gaps. Maybe I'll start with that. Thanks, Ruto. Lydia, I saw you nodding when both Danique and Ruto were talking and I just just want to give you before I go back into the need if you wanted to add anything. Oh, you're still on mute. Sorry about that. Yeah, I think both have made really important points. I also just want to make sure that we are more expansive on what we consider as data. And so I think when we talk about data science and a lot of these conversations about land data, we tend to think through this very colonial lens of these binary numbers that are collected. And really making sure that we step back in a reflective that data is inclusive of our languages of our locations of sacred ecosystems of our relationships to our human and non-human kin. And that's a really important piece that women, Indigenous women have always held in different capacities and are typically part of the dominant narrative of data. And so as we talk about today in this conversation of women being knowledge and data experts, it's really important to recognize that in different cultures. It's really important to recognize that we each have our own, you know, the type of knowledge and data that women are experts in might be different than the men and it's not because of gender disparities, it's because we recognize that we each have different roles as knowledge keepers and knowledge experts. And so really making sure that we're expansive as we talk about these pieces in this conversation today. Thank you, Lydia. Danik, I want to come to you. And that sort of links to what you talked earlier about, you know, Indigenous women and the cultural values and also, you know, sort of link to what Lydia just just talked about how we see data as well. You know, how when we, you know, you talked about the challenges, you know, in Bali, in Indonesia in particular, your experience, how could, you know, this collection of land-related data could be done in a way that reflects cultural values? Right, because I think you talked about, and I think Lydia also talked about just now as women as the center of, you know, data and these values. Danik, can you, yeah, how can this be, how can data can be collected in a way that reflects cultural values for Indigenous women? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Danik. Lydia, can I come to you next? You know, Danik talked about how they're doing to try and ensure that, right, that collection is, you know, reflecting cultural values. But what about in terms of practicalities of just, you know, trying to take back that land-related data? Can this be done if so, how? Yeah, I find a lot of inspiration at looking at the scores of Indigenous communities and Indigenous scholars who are really working to both reclaim their data of their communities and also make sure policies in the future really assert their rights to have access to that, to have governance authority over that types of data. And I think it's really important that we contextualize a lot of data and material culture about Indigenous peoples and our sacred ecosystems has been collected through very colonial expedition processes. So there's both in the museum center of going back and reclaiming ancestors that are housed in museums, but then also going through and retroactively looking at databases that are collecting information about Indigenous peoples' lands and ecosystems. So I work with a Collaboratory for Indigenous Data Governance at the University of Arizona. And what is really powerful about this Collaboratory is we have Indigenous scholars from a variety of different disciplines. We've had Bruto come in and talk actually, talk to our group before, and really look at how people in a variety of different disciplines are thinking about how do we embed Indigenous governance and Indigenous rights into data infrastructures, into policies, and utilizes to support Indigenous sovereignty in every capacity. And I think it's those types of partnerships in recognizing them that they translate across political boundaries that are often not boundaries we assign or not boundaries that ecosystems assign to really ensure that we can support one another and learn from one another's examples and develop technologies and data infrastructures that really assign rights embedded within them. And to see some great examples happening here in the United States right now, the University of Maine has an EDNA program, right? It's one of the many environmental DNA samples that are being collected in the program itself. It will actually send a notification to the tribal nations that it was collected from and let their tribal historic preservation officer know about these programs, these projects happening. And so we need to really be thinking about as researchers, as community scholars, how do we start facilitating and building more programs like that and technologies like that to make sure that when we as an environmental scientist or a cultural anthropologist are collecting information about Indigenous peoples, they are not just a collaborator, they are leading those pieces, they are knowing what's happening and telling us how good our data is. Because I think this is a really lost piece is that, as in that this is partially how I was trained, we don't enough learn from the Indigenous peoples whose lands we're working on and with. And I think we actually really hinders our scientific process, because we know Indigenous knowledges have gone through the ultimate peer review process of being tested across millennia of generations. But that is often really lost in our today's contemporary peer review process, it's only three people who are trained to think the same way. And so I think making sure that we can embed this into the practices into the data infrastructures is a really vital piece of this work. Thank you. Thank you so much Lydia that's really interesting particularly you know the examples that you gave, but also can I just reiterate I've been requested by the interpreters to try and slow down the speed of our speech I know, you know whenever I get excited and, you know, really into the topic that I tend to speak faster and faster so I guess just take a deep breath and slow it down again so the interpreters can can can follow everything that we're saying. Trudeau I'm coming back to you and my question is actually you know because you talked about the challenges. And I was going to ask you about what can be done to include Indigenous women in the data cycle, you know in a way that's respectful. But there have been there are quite a few questions that are already coming addressing to you so I also want to throw a couple of them to you in case you are also able to address them in your answer. So essentially, you know you talked about the lack of autonomy, the first time when I was asking you to set the scene. So if you can perhaps, you know, they're asking can you expand on the point you made about not having autonomy, and the challenges also on the land data connection, the collection in areas dominated by Indigenous communities what is the role of the woman in those particular issues. So I'm sorry, asking you to condense three questions in one but I'll give you an extra minute or two to answer that. So you know perhaps again you might still need to set the scene a little bit more and then talk about what can be done to include women in the data cycle. We'll do. Okay. Yeah, so maybe first just starting with a quick reflection on what we mean by a data cycle, right when we talk about Indigenous communities. And I think there's a lot of alignment here also with what Danik and Lydia just said. And I think if you, you know disentangle data from any modern constructs and take data to just mean knowledge. Right the communities have always had their data cycles about their land, right for example in the form of oral histories, or through practical teachings on harvesting and planting, or you know the example from Bali that Danik brought out so spatial knowledge that's inscribed on two palm leaves. And at least for all of the Indigenous communities that I've had the fortune of working with women have always had a strong role in those data cycles. So first is to mention that to maybe set the stage a little bit. And Danik pointed out, you know the problem arises when those Indigenous data cycles are somehow invalidated by outside actors who come in with their own worldview and conception of data, such as that of geospatial data shown on maps, which is why for Indigenous communities they found it really useful and powerful to collect spatial data using some of the same tools to be able to stake out a claim and defend customary and collective right to traditional lands. So, you know, in terms of how to include Indigenous women in some of these data cycles that may involve using something like digital tools for participatory mapping. I think there's a few things to consider. One is that it's important to design the project in such a way that Indigenous women can be included in the data stewardship process at every step of the way as I mentioned before there's something completeness there. A lot of the community mapping process tends to only be inclusive during the data collection phase, and that's where the question of autonomy and perhaps reduced autonomy comes into play. And some of that has to do with the technology, right? The fact that the technology only lends itself to that initial process of data collection, but that afterwards there is a lack of access to that level of data and therefore reduction in the overall autonomy over the ownership of that data, at least for remote communities. So to answer that question that came in there. Right, and so one of the progressives to this kind of analysis or decision making phase, there's much less representation. And the perspective of women in particular tends to be muted out by more dominant voices in that process. So in terms of project design, being able to find a way that Indigenous women can be included throughout the entire process is I think really key. But it's worth pointing out that even during the data collection phase it can be a challenge, frankly, to achieve the full participation. Often women in Indigenous communities and other local communities as well area higher level of responsibility for domestic or agricultural work. And so when mapping trainings or workshops are organized, they're not always able to come or only able to come a few times. At a certain point, it tends to be either the younger people or the men that take over that process, which then ends up leads to this unequal transmission of knowledge, right? So, even though the project design was intended to be kind of more democratic and inclusive, in practice, it doesn't always play out that way, right? So it's important to ensure that any planned activities are grounded in these practical realities of daily life in the community. And if you are implementing a participatory mapping project to think about maybe extra investments to be made so that to ensure that women can participate in these activities in an equal manner. Maybe just one final observation is just to be careful about what kind of data is understood to matter when it comes to land in particular. We're talking about land data today. What I'd say here is that although different members of a community, they may possess different kinds of knowledge based on their lived experience. When it comes to land data, it's often the knowledge of men that ends up being privileged for a variety of different reasons, right? Some of that just has to do with patriarchy. Some of that is maybe because men have had more of an opportunity to travel through the land because of their essentially their profession as maybe as hunters, for example, or as resource gatherers. And so male knowledge, there's a tendency for that to be privileged, but women may also have a difference and complementary form of knowledge about the land, which is often just as key for thinking about decisions around land management or land use planning. So when designing this kind of participatory mapping methodology, it's really important to make sure that the perspectives of women and really also that of youths and elders and the entire corpus of the community is just as well represented. And sometimes that takes an extra effort in thinking about the project design. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Ruta, for being able to put all of that condense all of that in your short answer and all the different questions as well. I have a second round of questions, but I also see that there are other questions coming in through the Q&A as well and Danique. I actually want to go to next because there's a question from the audience members asking about your opening statement. The question said that you mentioned that data collection in indigenous communities, at least in Bali that you were mentioning, they're done by women with some level of ability. What kind of ability and I'm assuming capacity are you referring to? Can you explain a little bit more? I guess the person is asking if you need to have some level of qualifications or some knowledge or some, I don't know, access to technology or whatever abilities that they need to have in order to do the data collection. Can you explain a little bit more, Danique? Thank you. What I mean is that in our experience in Yaya San Luis New, from data collection to the diversity of women with some level of ability, the ability that I mean is that women are more willing to communicate to increase their social data. If a man is a man, he's just walking. So that's why it's important to share the role of a man and a woman. So data collection is done by social media, it's done by women. It's easy. And after this data collection, they do data collection, we also teach them how to extract data, extract data from the past, the data collection and what is it called, the social media, how to extract social data. So after this data collection and the collection, we usually teach them how to collect data, like the example of Lydia and Rudo, we teach them how to collect data to analyze the data that has been collected. Existing from the spatial that they do well, from the data or the potential that they have, to the social media, so that it's not only from our point of view of the public, but also from the academic point of view of how they do well in their planning. So from this analysis, we will go back, they will go back between the youth, the elderly, the village, to develop a strategic plan. And then there will be how to manage their space. But not all villages that we change do that. Only a few villages that are still very strong, will reach the point of how they build the urban space, build the strategic plan, so that this will be where the children, the women and the village head, the village head, will be there. Because in Bali, even though the system is YARC, but the women's voice, the women's voice, is still very important in building the plan. So they will definitely be involved in every stage to build the community. Every stage is the women's voice. And there will definitely be young children, in the middle of the village and the village head, but there will always be people like that, who are usually involved in our experience. After the process, they will build the community, they will build the plan, they will manage the space. We as the leaders will support this to the government policy. But we often fail because the government already has space. But we accept this. We accept this, but of course this also becomes the synchronization of the government, the government, the province. We have done this experience several times, to support the village head to the government policy. That is the several things we have done. And throughout this process, even though the women's voice cannot be called quantity, but usually, who is prepared and who wants, that is usually the capacity we can do. The important thing is to be prepared and have time for these things. How can women access this? Now in Indonesia, there is called SID. So, the village information system. So, information about the village, they can access the village. If the village is in Asia, if the village is in Adat, they can access the village. Now, not all women usually want to do it. They want to do it. They want to do it. They want to do it when they believe. So, it is not a question of the limit to access, but the limit is to access the village. That is our role as leaders in how to access, how to use the data and information in the right way. That is our role as leaders in the field, to help our friends, to support our friends in Adat in order to use, to gather, to use and to encourage the data and information in the right way. Now, we, as I said earlier, we used to have a teacher named Lontar and so on. But now, in this globalization, young people need a digital teacher. So, all the data that is collected are in digital. And we are very satisfied with the spatial question we are satisfied with the BIG, the spatial information that is in Indonesia about one map, one policy. So, that is what we are going to do. Thank you. Yeah, sorry. Thank you so much, Denik. Sorry to interrupt. I believe Batti has joined us from the field. Is that correct? Can I get confirmation if Batti has joined us? If so, would like to hear from Batti. Batti, are you there with us? Hello? Okay, maybe not. Let me go back to regular scheduling in that case while we try and see if Batti is still able to join us in the last few minutes. Lydia, just very quickly, there's another question as well in terms of getting more youth involved in, you know, in terms of data collection, but also just, you know, maintaining and I guess land tenure rights for Indigenous peoples. Is there a strategy to have more people involved? Yeah, intergenerational involvement in land-based data is really vital to this work. So, we definitely are losing our knowledge holders and experts at alarming rates, but making sure that we have more educational programming about teaching youth about cultural sites, about the how we refer to plants, animals, our non-human kins, all of that is really vital. But I also think that youth play a really significant role because they've always existed with these data ecosystems, these very rich data environments that we have today. So, their vital role is really how do we build technologies and infrastructures that support the needs and priorities of our communities as well as survive it. So, that's why I'm a researcher and a professor or a teacher is because of those pieces, but also it's an intergenerational piece where we need elders there to be able to tell us the pieces of the ecosystem that we don't know or help us understand what was once there to envision what's possible. And so, I think that those go hand in hand and far too often both of those sides of the spectrum, the elders and the institutions, but I think that they play the most important roles. Thank you. Thanks for that, Lydia. Okay, we're going to try again because Betty apparently is online. She's just having issues with her audio. So, Betty, can we check if you are around? Like I said, you know, Betty is a she was, she's a Keetra leader. She was the president of Puerto Rico community before and she is now the first woman president of the federation of native communities in the region of Loreto in Peru. And, you know, Betty's known for being a very tech-savvy environmental defender and, you know, that's why we're having trouble connecting to her today because she is out in the field doing the difficult work. Betty, can you hear us and are you there? I'm thin. I think Betty would need some translation but she hasn't worked out how to do the translation. So, if one of the Spanish translators can just join and translate to Betty to figure that out for her. Thanks. That would be fantastic. Thank you so much, Elena. Yes, can we receive help from a Spanish translator, perhaps even on the English channel that Betty is possibly in to see if you can translate to her how to select the Spanish channel. That would be really helpful. Thank you. Then would you like me to help? I can speak Spanish. That would be great. Just very briefly. Yes. Thank you, Diana. Can you just repeat what you would like me to ask her? I'm sorry, Ethan. Oh, just tell her how to access the translation button on the Zoom so that she can then hear us and be able to speak. Okay, and that's the questions for the information is for Betty Betty. Yes. Betty. Hola soy Diana. Estoy aquí apoyando me entiende me escucha. Betty puede seleccionar abajo en su pantalla tiene un globito que dice interpretación si pincha en ese globito puede seleccionar el idioma que quiere escuchar entonces si necesita escuchar español tenemos interpretación y va a escuchar todo el inglés y los demás idiomas traducidos al español. ¿Lo encuentra? Sí, sí, sí. Okay, y ya está en el canal español ¿no? Sí. Muy bien, gracias. Okay, then that's Betty has selected the Spanish channel. Fantastic. Thank you so much Diana for all of their help and everybody else behind the scenes is making sure that this work Betty very, very welcome to you even though you're joining us in the last 15 minutes. We wanted to give you a chance to speak we've been talking about how to get Indigenous women involved in data collection and use and empower them. It would be great to hear some of your experiences in terms of some of the challenges for Indigenous women and what are the things that can be done to improve the situation. Okay. Buenos días a todos disculpen por la tardanza pero este fue motivo de la señal ¿no? Lo que yo les quisiera compartir es que las mujeres indígenas la verdad que es muy difícil o muy complicado de que nos den la oportunidad de poder asumir cargos más que todo no tenemos la libertad de poder está representando ¿no? a otras personas o a otras mujeres en espacios públicos entonces es por ahí es una gran dificultad pero sin embargo creo que si nosotros incentivamos a que más mujeres puedan capacitarse, puedan tener oportunidad de salir a otros lugares a ver otras experiencias a compartir otras experiencias con otras mujeres que sí lo están haciendo sería una como un reto ¿no? para que las demás mujeres puedan tener este tipo de espacio aunque es bastante difícil pero si necesitamos que alguien o vamos a decir se hagan eventos, se realicen más reuniones y podamos invitar a más mujeres que puedan participar y así tengamos la oportunidad de seguir demostrando nuestras capacidades en diferentes espacios ¿no? desde nuestra comunidad en nuestra localidad y si hay la posibilidad no tener reuniones virtuales así como lo estamos teniendo entonces este sería un gran logro para que otras mujeres puedan presentar al frente de los demás Thank you very much Pasi muchas gracias so glad to have you and thank you so much for joining despite you know being in the field and having issues with signal we don't have that much time and we still have a couple more questions and we want particularly we want to make sure that we answer questions from the participants and there's a question let me read it out it says you know right now because the participatory and inclusive process is inculculated in community processes such as data gathering how does this help women in securing their land rights particularly in cases where they're not allowed to own or even have rights over lands do we have a practical example of how you know this process can help women Lydia I was wondering whether there's you know just think briefly and you say you don't necessarily have an example but you know you can talk about the general issues around it so it would be great to hear from you and you know Denig, Rudo, Batti if you want to answer this question as well after Lydia I'll come to you thank you Yeah I just think that it's a really vital question since today our conversation is around women in land rights and I think making sure that we're really clear about identifying some of the factors of this that violence against the land and violence against women are interrelated we see that in man camps and up here we see that with domestic violence issues so this violence happening externally and internally within communities is a really important piece but I also see empowerment that I feel like it's these collectives of indigenous women landholders that are happening you see some great examples in the Bay Area of Women-led Land Trust buying back land as a collective that are really empowering pieces but specifically in regards to these places where women don't have land rights how do we get above that and that's where I think that some of these economic factors and organizations that are wanting to support land-back movements really putting their funds towards indigenous women-led initiatives and I do think we often talk about the spectrum of indigenous but I think indigenous women-led are really important pieces because we're often the communities that are most marginalized in land discussions thank you Thank you so much Lidia I just wanted to I have a couple more questions but I wanted to ask if anybody else wants to jump in Yes Lidia Yes please go ahead In that case it's very important that women can participate as I said there are organizations that are promoting women participation it's important to reinforce and strengthen so that more women can participate and so gain more than all of this the land rights although it's true that women have a lot of vulnerability that we can have these types of spaces but however the important thing in indigenous territories the basics are women because women are always involved in what is going on in the territory and what they are leaving in our territory for the future of our children so we believe that if there are institutions that can support these types of organizations it's important that we do it so that we have more opportunities for more women to participate in these types of spaces Great thank you so much Brudo could I just ask if you have any specific examples that you might be willing to share if you remember any because the question was asking whether there are any practical examples Yeah I think so just briefly I can frame this question just in terms of mapping for land rights and tenure which is also what we focus on at Kadasta and I think there's sometimes attention between on the one hand introducing a participatory mapping project that allows communities to map what are important to them and to really focus on those cultural values that were mentioned earlier but on the other hand also the requirements for formal land demarcation which sometimes may feel like an outside imposition something that comes from the state apparatus rather than something that's reflecting the community's internal perspective on their land which is I think kind of related to this question and the two goals are not opposed and there's some great methodologies that I'm thinking of from South America in particular that starts by asking broad questions about what the territory used to look like what it looks like today and what we want it to look like and these kinds of broad framing questions enable different community members to speak to those different kinds of things so when you're thinking about what the territory used to look like you're not just thinking about elders but especially elders have a lot to offer in that perspective then when you get to questions like what it looks like today that's where you start to have different members of the community and then being able to contribute on the nature of land management and what the community and the territory looks like and then when you're thinking about what we want it to look like that's almost a question that's targeting the youth and the coming generations and the territory that we want to leave behind for the coming generations so I think it's a really good example of an approach that can really frame the questions around land management and even thinking about land rights because asking these kinds of questions ensures that the discussion stays focused on that indigenous point of view of the territory and it captures all of the voices including women but then it also yields concrete plans of action about which parts of the land the community wants to map protect and hold collectively so it's a way of getting at land tenure and land rights while still making sure that you're answering those questions from an indigenous point of view and getting all of the input from all of the different members of the community including women. We are actually running out of time but there's quite a few more questions and I want to take as many as possible so I'm going to throw three questions and I will just let any of the speakers just take them whichever one they want so three questions and I think they're quite interesting one one is can somebody give an example of how community gathered data can be used and what would women bring to that process exactly that's number one number two what are some of the risks associated with data collection by indigenous women I think that's interesting are there any risks particularly I guess in communities where women are not allowed to own land or whether they're very conservative are there risks associated if indigenous women collect data and the third one is you know inclusion you know how do we deal with this feelings where in some communities perhaps women feel that things like land registration process and data collection and data usage is the man's role how do we overcome that so three interesting questions that I'm throwing at you in the last four or five minutes of the session example of how community together data can be used and specifically what women would bring second risk associated with data collection by indigenous women and inclusion how do we overcome perhaps the feeling that perhaps this is the role for men Betty I want to come to you first feel free to take any of these questions or you know just one or if you can condense all the answers in one go that would also be great and then Danique I'll come to you after Betty and then Lydia and Ruto if that's okay Betty would you like to go fast Hola si, lo que como liviar mas que todo este tema esta esta información mira las mujeres en mi zona donde que yo estoy viviendo por ejemplo nosotros estamos haciendo monitoreo en los territorios indígenas dentro los territorios comunales y todo el espacio que nosotros tenemos a nuestro alrededor en asambleas comunales dependiendo de la información que nosotros generamos en voz en el campo mediante asambleas se van tomando decisiones que priorizamos sobre nuestros territorios que esta pasando sobre nuestros territorios de acuerdo a eso esa información lo planteamos en asambleas comunales y se toma una decisión o para que la comunidad pueda gestionar de acuerdo a la problemática que encontramos dentro los territorios en el caso de equidad de género las mujeres muchas veces que a las mujeres no nos dan la oportunidad de poder entrar al territorio pero es importante que nosotros como mujeres también hagamos el trabajo para así poder enseñar a nuestros hijos conocer mas a profundo sobre nuestros territorios que cosa esta pasando dentro nuestros territorios y la otra cosa es que los conflictos o las amenazas que tenemos dentro sobre estos trabajos que hacemos ciertamente a nosotros como mujeres se nos complica hacer esta labor llegamos a ser amenazados por lo que nosotros muchas veces hemos denunciado nos hemos pronunciado sobre lo que esta pasando el tema de contaminación, el tema de tala el tema de minería sobre nuestros territorios a nosotros como mujeres si nos preocupa y ese es un riesgo donde que nosotros que como mujeres a mi me ha llegado a pasar que he llegado a ser amenazada por estar siendo como vocera de la comunidad desde la misma comunidad y defendiendo lo que es todo el territorio de los pueblos indígenas pero eso muchas veces a mi no me ha puesto en gran dificultad no me ha limitado de hacer de seguir siendo o pronunciandome porque a nosotros nos preocupa sobre nuestros territorios de lo que es la ilegalidad en ese caso yo ver la posibilidad de que nosotros como mujeres sigamos adelante y sigamos teniendo apoyo mas que todo fortaleciendo en capacidades para que otras mujeres puedan hacer la misma labor que nosotros lo venimos haciendo Thank you Betty Denik your final thoughts before we wrap up to those questions Thank you Thank you We are going to talk about the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the because of the needs of the government for development and investment, which is usually the worst. If we ourselves in the people of Adat, it is understandable with that, but the investment that means this is usually very bad. And there was a question, maybe what is the risk of women if she is not involved in education or financial development and so on. If we are paid, maybe the risk is not felt, it is not felt with reality. But slowly, this will be very suitable for women's access, for example, women are not active to do, usually the room is open, but sometimes women are already busy and so on, that is what makes them eager to be involved. So, the risk may not be so big, because we do not have any additional, we do not have this, but in the middle of the house or in the middle of the house, usually it will be a little bit of confusion, if, for example, women are not active to sing, then suddenly maybe the land has been made, maybe it will be seen, that's how it is, in the middle of the house, but in general, in public space, it is very difficult to record. Thank you, Deneke. Thank you very much. Lydia? Yeah, I think I'll just answer the question about what are the risks associated with data collection by Indigenous women, and I think I would just summarize that. I think it's recognizing the risks of being an Indigenous woman and going out into the world and that there are risks that are always going to be associated with that. I've been field sampling and got harassed and propositioned for things that may be really uncomfortable, while I've been outfield sampling in California, you know, so I think it's recognizing that these risks exist everywhere, and that a lot of these are environments that weren't designed for women or for Indigenous peoples. So I think recognizing that those can be compounded risks associated in these spaces, and then when you go into places that also have more political contention, that those risks just get amplified. I hope that answers that question. Thank you. Yeah, no, that's great. Thank you. Rudar? Yeah, I'll just quickly add to also the risks question that's where my mind went to as well, and I think a lot about, you know, data extractivism in general when it comes to Indigenous communities. Of course, historically, there's been a lot of that which Lydia spoke to, and that's why the Indigenous data sovereignty movement is so important. You know, when thinking about technology and methodologies and ensuring that communities are in the driver's seat at all times when it comes to their data and have full decision making power over who has access and who doesn't. And I think the same thing applies to that of Indigenous women when it comes to their data is perhaps a greater risk insofar as potentially Indigenous women may not be involved in those final decision making process of what gets to be done with the data. So even internally, there could be a risk of extractivism where Indigenous women's data is used somehow for making certain decisions about the land, but they're not involved in those processes, right? So even I think internally, there's potentially some risks about that, and I think the best way to really mitigate that is just to enable communities to create their own data methodologies and solutions as much as possible and to not rely on kind of outside approaches or tools. Those can be useful, but they're often not really serving communities in the ways that they want to and demand to. So I think that's one way of mitigating that with the risk still remain, of course. Great. Thank you. Thank you for not only talking about the risks, but also how to mitigate them. That's really helpful. Unfortunately, we have ran out of time. We're four minutes over. We did start a couple of minutes late. So I guess, you know, we're forgiven, but we do need to end the event right now. So, you know, I would just like to say thank you so much to all of our speakers who joined from all corners of the world. Despite bad connections, different time zones and everything. Can we give them a virtual round of applause, please, for all of their insights and to helping us understand this whole issue around data better? And of course, thank you to the audience as well for your participation. We would also like to thank our hosts at the Fort Foundation, the Land Portal Foundation, the tenure facility and the Thompson Readers Foundation. It's been a real pleasure for me to moderate this event. Apologies for all the questions that we weren't able to take. But we hope that this is just the beginning of the conversation around data in Indigenous women and that you will hopefully continue this conversation in other avenues as well. So have a great day, afternoon and evening or night. Goodbye. Thank you.