 Go it says going live pop up Well, hello everyone and welcome back to for the minions the weekly show We talk about a variety of third-person mobas this week ethereal announced that they're gonna have a play test coming pretty soon and then We got mecho and overprime and predecessor really hasn't done much new this week They just keep on keep it on and we'll just uh, you know discuss them just a little bit But I'm your host the man who's joining me as always my friend and co-host jelly knees. How you don't jelly? I am fantastic man. Who's happy to be here now. You've got a song stuck in my head now So it's clearly gonna be a problem all up But I'm excited to be here talk about all the things and we also got the Viking Jedi with us. Welcome back Viking Jedi Hello, what's up? What's up, man? I I'm excited man I've been having a great week mostly playing vx, so I won't probably have a lot to say about Overprime and predecessor this week, but man the ethereal news So hype dude I watched the video today again just like to get everything fresh for the show and like oh man I am so excited. I can't wait to see What everything that's been done because obviously we've gotten a chance to peek at a lot of things over the last year But now finally getting to put our hands on it and have like other people put their hands on it Some people are gonna be trying this for the very first time like dapper dice for example He's been so amp since we brought him on the show to be able to you join the patreon like that same day like so I'm so excited The ethereal news is probably my favorite news. I know we have to talk about mako and some of the other stuff But the ethereal play test win questions are finally answered and I'm so excited Yeah, and I'm not gonna lie to you guys. I haven't had I played like a handful of overprime and a handful of predecessor this week I've made I've mainly been playing single player metroid radius I've just been in a little bit of a funk this week with content creation wise and gaming wise so I'll do my best though. I'll do my best So well, let's start off with um With ethereal, I think I think that's probably the biggest news out of everybody right now That uh, we finally got a play test coming. So jelly Uh, what do you want to talk? Guide us through this when is it going to be who who could play when can they play all that good stuff? I mean first off it's epic manganese transition, right? It's pretty weird that ethereal has news and neither of the other companies are going to suddenly announce something at the same time Usually how it happens, isn't it? Like oh, we're going to have A console play test then Oh my god Universe Pushing this live that I'm like they're going to do something someone's going to have something May 5th through 7th, and I'm going to lose my mind No, but so yes, there's going to be a new play test coming on may 5th through the 7th It's a friday through saturday Through sorry friday through sunday with an early access day on may 4th for any patreon subscribers both old and new So you don't need to be currently subbed to the patreon If you've ever subbed to the patreon, you're getting an early access day to that may 4th test And there's an even earlier early access day the saturday before on april 29th Or those same patreon people as well. So again old new live not live whatever it is They'll be getting access to those two early access days for these tests Love it And uh, I mean and us right like in us. Oh, yeah, yeah totes. Well, manganese is a patreon subscriber So If you guys haven't played ethereal before I think As far as what to expect from ethereal if this is going to be your first time playing is this upcoming play test I would say It plays more similar to predecessor than overprime, but has even more oddities than overprime like Having edges on the map that you can launch people off of or knock people off of or just fall off of And having um be having to kill Different monsters to create portals on the map to Great the better assist your rotations and everything there's a lot to learn with ethereal But I think just laning phase wise It's a lot like predecessor and that it's a bit a bit slower than overprime But once it kicks off and the team fight start that's when they really start Then the other thing too though is When you're in lane never think you're alone because they do have these sky slayers that can swoop down out of nowhere And take you on a wares Very much that I mean mankus is a short on his channel of him jumping off a fire lane going down into void with lia flying And just being like hey, and yep, thank you for that kill and flying back away afterwards like jesus christ I think uh, if anybody who's not played is going to be similar to me is getting used to the 6v6 having two junglers that you're kind of having to track and and work around Not to mention just the map and the levels of it The farming and everything like that you know buying items and all those things I think will come pretty natural for most of us who've played any kind of mobas But it's the actual gameplay loop and playing around that stuff that's going to really You know set the floor pretty high for a lot of people So I think the main thing that I will preach is patience like these first few games Maybe the first day is going to be brutal for a lot of people like but stick it through man You will you know and pick a champion that makes sense for you. Don't worry about it too much Like just just just focus on like a myth or two that seems fun If you are a brand new jungler, just go for it Who cares like I hope that most of the community is going to be on board that there's going to be Hopefully a lot of people that are new and we're not going to immediately flame them and make them feel like idiots Me included because I'm I've played the game, but not very well So I'm like excited to get into it, but I hope that everybody will be You know understanding and patient because it is it is a hard game to get used to But once you get the vibe for it, you can be like mangoes throwing people off of cliffs and stuff and killing them, which is great Or just getting destroyed by fumo I wouldn't know. Yeah, yeah guaranteed if fumo's on the enemy team. Sorry just when that 12 minutes hits Yeah, you know what to do But the the main thing I kind of want to echo out of that is yeah The game it's been talked about in the past being like the dota 2 of 3d mobas Right dota 2 is notoriously complicated to get into as a beginner player So have fun with your first few games, right? Don't sweat too hard and don't don't sit there going like I died eight times It'll be okay. I promise you it You'll it once you figure it out, you'll figure it out. It'll click. It'll make sense You'll have a lot of fun But don't worry about those early games too too much because it's gonna happen ever Almost everybody's new to the game if you're against a tester then I wish you luck, but um But yeah, honestly, it's super super excited to have this test coming out and everybody Being able to play the game again. Go with I mean the new map nobody nobody outside of testers has played the new map yet Yeah, right That's it was still the old map in the last test. So that by itself is a huge Change of like just quality uplift and just all the other things that are there as well And there's a different field of view now, right there you can select between the immersive versus strategic So you can be either far a little bit further away or deep in I prefer to be a little Deeper in be up close in the action, but uh bangers likes to be deep guys. I like to be deep But yeah, you do have that option now, which is nice Yeah, and I I personally prefer the immersive camera as well. It's a little closer It's a little more like the paragon predecessor over prime camera view not exact But it's it's much closer to that whereas the strategic just pulls you out in a way a little bit more um And so it's super exciting to have that in there for people to choose kind of their play style what they prefer to see And all that kind of stuff as well And what I know for me like when you were talking about it, uh in the in the video I was thinking like oh, I bet for certain myths I would prefer one camera Over another and and you know and having like because it does obviously gives you a little bit extra vision So, you know, maybe if you're playing a certain type you might prefer that versus being more immersive like you're So I think it's cool that it's toggleable like it's in in in game Like I can be switching maybe as I want to and not have to feel like you know Oh, man, I picked the wrong camera this time So like that that makes me really excited. I'm just excited in general I think it's going to be super fun Do we know like all the myths that are going to be available like do you have a list of them? We'll have 10 myths the the pre-office seven that we've had before right there We're in the last test with the addition of malware xcl and kalia So all three of them will be in this test as well so Malware guys is my boy, dude. I'm okay. Can I say a little something? I've known about malware for a while Not I've never and I got when jelly told me about malware and gave me a little bit of insights about it I was like This is This is this is speaking to me I'm this is this is this is a champion and if I didn't know any better was being built for the viking jedi So I will be one tricking that guy the entire test probably doing bad on him, but I don't care because that's he is my favorite Uh, I you know, I just oh, I'm so excited that malware is going to be in. Oh, thank you. Okay. Sorry guys a lot of fun You're fine Say again man goose. Yeah, Malware is a lot of fun. He's uh, oh, yeah. He's he's a fucking blast to play um The all the skins are going to be available as well all the skins that they already have made um not going to be a shop it's If I'm getting that right Jelly aren't these skins recolors of the original skins or There are no recolors. Wow No, there's uh, there's so they're including base skins, right? So the 10 base skins We'll have an additional 13 skins of varying amounts for each myth Each myth will have at least one skin going into the test But some myths have two and I think there are two of them that have three Um, but so yeah, everybody everybody has a skin They'll like at 23 including base skins total. None of them are recolors. They're all completely unique concepts and ideas so It's incredible and armadillo and hit what I was going to say as well There have been some changes to malware that I've made him so much more fun. It's ridiculous. Oh god Yeah, so I can't wait for you to see that that's that's but Yes skins for everybody They'll just be unlocked by default when you're in myth select You can just select which skin you want going in and you'll start the game with that skin I'm probably gonna hit the question perfectly because it is in the video You guys need to go and watch it because jelly does a really good job of explaining everything that's coming But there is controller support for xbox. No an extent. Do an extent. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead jelly limited controller support Yeah But yeah, so but like viking said for xbox controllers There will be controller support You have to go in the settings hit enable controller and then you can run around and do all that stuff using your xbox controller as well but In order to like use the shop and stuff you still have to use mouse and keep right Correct, correct So when you open settings menu and the shop those two things will still need your mouse in order to Click and select those things We have not added that functionality into the controllers yet Like I said, it's fairly early But we wanted to make sure at least the playable aspects of moving your myth around abilities. The whole nine are there for you Nice Yeah, uh, yeah, that is that is really nice because a lot of people like to that's their much much preferred input is Mm-hmm. Um, luckily I have an xbox controller that I'm not going to play ethereal, but Because I can't play for shit with a controller. I could I could barely play with a mouse and keyboard But yeah, I mean, that's really good. That's really good to see. I like that that option is going to be there for people to at least You know in the action play with their controller and I like who cares if you have to use mouse keyboard to select items and shit Yeah, exactly We're we're gonna throw the smallest bone to controller guys, but then otherwise me Right just like the console guys, right? Yeah, fuck those guys Um, the other thing is surrender was added to the game. So that's Week Reading it I was having a hard time not laughing because I was thinking of the two of you Reacting to me saying that the surrendering was going to be in the game. I literally as I was watching it. I was like Oh So it's pre 12 minutes is when you can start surrendering You'll need a full team to agree in order to surrender and then after that point Now I can't remember if I said 15 or 20 minutes, but then you'll need a simple majority So four out of six people. I think it was 20. Okay You'll need a simple majority four out of six people to agree to get to surrender I really hope and I I think it's a good because in the video you hit the nail on the head Like sometimes games just aren't fun and if you're not having fun and you want to get out of that game It's understandable even though we give people a hard time for you know for ffing The thing is to me when you surrender in this in a playtest I think that you're really giving doing yourself and the teammates and your opponents a disservice So I really hope we don't see a lot of surrenders because their people are struggling or you know Again, people are being toxic. So really really try I hope during these play tests because you only get it for a few days Guys, so try and maximize your games and get familiar with your myths even if you're behind man That's that's fine. Just keep trying and learning. Uh, don't don't don't ff. Don't if you can avoid it I mean, again, if you're not having fun and everybody's not having fun Then I guess get out of there But I really really hope we don't see a lot of surrendering because it is it is a bit annoying in a disruption To to the to the system, but of course it should be there You know my boot my advice whenever you're playing ethereal is pick Pick the myth that you want And look at their kit and think What what cool thing could I do with that kit and then try your best to do that because if you are able to pull it off Even if you lose horribly if you're able to do that one thing if you're able to grab that person and throw them off the edge If you're able to to catch like five people with uh with a noxus um Light whatever and then drop then drop the bomb on them if you could do all that kind of stuff Then you're going to be hooked. Um, oh, yeah Yeah, jumping off of lanes from one to the other being able to Fight a tropos being able to do all of those cool things climb walls fly Break walls the whole nine if you think that would be fun to you do focus on that stuff. Absolutely. Yeah No, shit. I'll always get like a little bit of a like a vertigo a little bit whenever I jump from For me everyone's first time jumping off of a lane that's that's the feeling guaranteed Yeah It's true Or being thrown off of it also kind of a bit weird. That's a whole different feeling. That's just screaming Yeah, nothing worse than coming through the portal and iran is sitting right there waiting for you The main thing is that everybody has fun, man Like it's it's it's been something that people have been waiting for for close to here at this point you know, we've been asking play test win just as much as console win and uh, I just again, I agree that surrendering should be there I hope that people use it when necessary and don't abuse it, right? Because it's it should be something that is there to help people continue to have fun But yeah, if games are toxic or whatever first of all report people through the proper channels I know that the three old discord I think has something in place or should have something in place that you know, you can screen capture someone Is you know using things that are inappropriate We want to catch those things so and I'm assuming the team wants to catch those things But the main thing is again understand This is for three days If if you're not a patreon member if you're a patreon member you get extra days This is again a reminder to everybody, but I think it'll be a really cool opportunity And so don't be toxic understand people are going to be new Hopefully most of the testers that are familiar with the game are going to be there and offering insights and not Just wanting to get on their one trick and you know slam on some noobs You know, I really really hope that doesn't happen actually, but uh, so maybe a talk can be had for those guys, but Any little huddle up little huddle up with the testers Testers are only allowed to play customs against each other everybody else. Yeah, that's the other thing customs will be available if you have 12 people that are willing to do a custom, but Kind of like our predecessor was at first or I think they still are you can't do a custom like three Yeah, you need a full lobby before you can do a custom Yeah, the fun thing is reconnect has been added to the game the reconnect didn't exist in the last test So if for whatever reason you crashed out you're you needed to restart whatever You just opened up the lobby and had to match make again which was leading with a lot of these weird lobbies back and forth of like 4v6 or Yeah, 5v2 like because people would disconnect or crash and they couldn't get back into their game Now reconnect is a thing so it if you load 6v6 and somebody leaves and they're trying to come back and they're not just being toxic And leaving they should be able to come back into the game and be continue that 6v6 And there's a party limit right so it's a limit to a three in a party Yeah, you upped Yeah, so you're not going to get three of us could queue together, but no no additional people Okay, you're not going to get dooky doing about like six people playing all together. Yep, exactly that would feel It just as a because I know you say it in the video, but uh, obviously people already asked in chat It where's the server going to be located? It's There you go. So it's an na server, but it'll be central u.s It's ohio. I believe is where the server is itself. So Oh nice and close to me nice Just far enough away from me that I can complain that it's pings that is causing me issues and anything else That's the only reason It's not a skill gap. I just have poor pings guys Yeah, so um, yeah, it uh as armadillo just said in chat it's going to be their own launcher It's not going to be coming from theme or epic games or whatever. So you just have to score it on their website Yep Yeah, we'll we'll go into more detail about how you can download everything and all that beforehand as well I don't nice Yeah, that's um, you want to you want to just uh throughout the dates again real quick jelly before we switch out Yes, so it's the early first early access day for patreon members is april 29th It's a saturday the then it's may 5th through 7th for the main tests with An early day for patreon members on may 4th and that's again patreon members old and new So you can be subbed right now or you've subbed anytime in the past You'll get access to those early patreon days. I'm stoked that you picked uh star wars weekend. You know what I mean? So we can we can go with it in The fourth be with you. Yeah, maybe I'll get a little bit of a buff You know what I mean being jedi or as chat has pointed out sometimes a bit sith like I'll use the force. I'll use the force. I still use it, baby. Let's go Yeah, houston just you asked in chat. Will it be streamable or under nda? It will be streamable so anybody can stream make content the whole line yards. So exciting so cool Okay, your friends any final comments for removal into overprime Uh, if you see me against you, I'm sorry if you see me on your team. I'm also sorry. So there you go same same Both for both for very different reasons, but yeah Don't you see you see me I guess you because you looked up I will be only Don't pick malware if I'm in your lobby. He's mine and I will play him in any lane that I get assigned to It doesn't matter. Oh god. I would love to face malware and off lane with uh, tell us Finally is my favorite lane so Um, all right, let's switch one over to overprime Um, so they we talked about last week that they're going to be adding mako. They have added mako I have not played him at all period. Like I said, I've only played a handful of games in both games I've played against them and I could tell you he's a he's elusive as fuck and with his um His small hit box. He's he's pretty hard to hit with Came near everything so That's one benefit to mako You guys actually have played him. What do you think? Super fun. So fun. So fun. So fun. It's wild Like I honestly damage or or anything else aside just the funness of mako's kit is insane It's better than the vast majority of the other characters in overprime In terms of just like pressing buttons feel really good Uh, everything you do you're like, yeah, like let me go do the thing and I think that's a great metric to To have on a new completely ip character, especially I I felt it's exactly the same way like one of the things we talk about sometimes is like that that both, uh Teams put together like a safe first um ip character in in zina um and huntress I I feel like mako is not a safe Route to go his whole kit is Very different lots of opportunity for skill expression and Not so difficult that his Entry is is like unattainable. I do think it will take a few games to kind of get used to him I mostly played him trying to see if he's solo laneable like so I played him in the off lane Uh, not really lane dominant as a damage dealer But and I was on the guys this before the show Is what was cool though is when we got to team fights having a Support and me as a secondary support that also does a little bit of damage and healing and all that stuff Was really really beneficial in the team fights and his ultimate. Oh my gosh, dude His ultimate is one of the coolest things that not only does it just like from a thematic like just looking at it Roll across into areas like it's still a little weird to kind of figure out Where's it gonna break because sometimes it like has like some weird terrain interactions I think they're gonna work some of those bugs out But like his his e flip in was also really freaking crazy Like I you I don't expect it to go as far But you also get a little roll boost like you get a little speed boost and you can use it to go forward To keep running or you can use it to go back towards somebody and catch them off guard It's so freaking fun, dude. One of the funnest things. I'm not a good player on him I don't think I'm great on him But he just was so much fun to press every single button jelly hit the nail on the head to me He's like fun level 10 out of 10 skill expression I think he's he's maybe like an eight or nine out of 10 I think that really really good macro players are gonna make him look freaking busted And then your average players are just going to make him look Okay, like he's fine. I still think decker's probably the best support Maybe myriel is in conversation there again. Um, but with macos ability to disrupt heal Not really a great damage dealer. I know that some people think that he can become damage I haven't seen a build that really makes him super damages heavy. Um, but I that's anyway, very fun. I wouldn't take him into solo lane unless you have like a very organized team keep him in the support role That's it. That's all I got for him Jelly, what are your what are your thoughts? Do you have any more thoughts on him? Yeah, he's balls to the wall pun intended. I mean, like saying how like We've talked about how safe both zina and then kira are in predecessor and over prime before They don't really change things up. They don't really push the envelope too much But mako is the exact polar opposite like it's just it's like, oh now his basic attacks can also displace people And let's make it so that his q is like a mine that sits on the ground and let's do like or it blows up on impact Let's make his e this insane dash ability that he can then move afterwards Let's make like let's make his ultimate grab people and push them into walls and then heal everyone that's around That's an ally like just oh, let's give him a flat heal. That's another one like just insane The amount of stuff that mako can do That is different from what anything else we've seen out of both of these games and even paragon in the past So it's really really cool to see and i'm excited it mako Even though it's a support character, right super fun I probably won't play him too much because that's just not my role But it makes me excited for future characters. Yes, it makes me excited for adel It makes me excited for whoever's coming after adel that i'm sitting there I was like, okay now you've shown me. Yes zina was safe zina's cool and all that's fine So but whatever but now you've shown me that you're willing to push the envelope to some extremes And I want to see what those extremes are in other roles not just in the support role. Yeah Very cool Cool care One thing I think we do need to discuss and this is part of the the the questions for fdm But I think we should probably bring it up now. Um, he has a bit of rng in his kit with his basic attacks His basic attacks have a chance to knock back Um, I'll take the question. Let me let me pull up the the entire question says we're just we're just going to get into it right now why not so the question was um Uh, who asked the question It was basically just talking about the rng range. Yeah, how should rng be a bonus mechanic? Yeah, obviously Yeah, it's it's applying to other games as well But I mean specifically we could talk about mako like it being for me What I noticed was that the times that it that it propped were not always times that I wanted it to proc Yeah, you know what I mean and like and I could see like if there was a few times even again playing as offline Where I would do something that would push or cause the disruption that is great But it would also then push or disrupt my teammate from being able to follow up on it and keep doing damage So it was like I started to question whether or not I should be using my autos To help my team put out damage because what if I'm now Bumping them out of a you know an ultimate or a skill shot or something else because it's just unpredictable So not knowing that every fourth shot it's going to do xyz thing. It was to me We had me questioning whether I should even be using my autos in team fights That one isn't solo 1v1 or in the lane. Maybe it's not that big of a deal But like obviously that's not always how you're going to be using him and so having that displacement as part of his rng was Very like am I going to get it back to back am I going to get it like we don't know it's just it's very difficult to ascertain So to answer the question I think in this case the rng in general. I think is okay as long as it's It sounds weird predictable rng. Yeah in a way that makes sense like it's not it's not just straight rng Just to be rng like it's there's got to be Something that where you can still play around it. So to me there there the difference would be New neutral or beneficial rng versus detrimental rng And I consider macos basic attacks a detrimental rng Because if you don't know when it's going to happen a knockback or a pushback of any kind Like you said could push people out of abilities could push them into safety could push them out of basic attack range Could push them out of an of your abilities, right? That's detrimental rng Whereas does somebody mentioned crit chance crit chance to me is a beneficial or neutral rng And that if it does if I don't crit I'm not going to in hurt hurt my chances of something else happening right right if I do crit it's beneficial That's great, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to be able to do something else as a result of that crit Right for maco. I would rather see like a every fifth basic attack knocks heroes back Because then at least that's on me just to use my skill to know how to play around that Use my e to jump in dash behind them and knock them toward my carry And then whatever but then I know my fifth basic attack is the one that's knocking back For instance, and it's not even rng But wukong's right click that knocks people back That is detrimental 100 because it's a melee character pushing people away from him Unless you're trying to get away from them. It's terrible Right like it's this weird it's this weird Mechanic to have to play around that feels more detrimental than helpful and that knockbacks in general can feel that way a lot of the time Sure, but so I think I'd rather just have At least with wukong. I have a way that I can say I know when I'm going to knock back Right and and have that control where it was right maco. I don't have that that choice And the thing to me too is like there is like maybe some if they really want to keep it as rng And and I didn't notice it when I'm playing him And so maybe I'm wrong and someone in chat can correct me if they know But like it's not even like his ball lights up a different color or something else to let me know Hey, your next auto is going to have this effect And so I think if they were wanted to really kind of still keep it as an rng aspect having some kind of like Notification to you as the player or even maybe to the enemy that hey like This the rng is propped now your next auto is going to do this enhanced thing At least then I can do what you're talking about. I can play around it If I don't want it I just throw my auto off into the nothingness and go back to just autoing like normal You know what I mean? And and and it is what it is or I play around it and it is what it is But like not knowing ever to me at least in the heat of the battle It's it to me. It seems like it could be tough Especially even when you consider his ultimate also can do the same thing Where you might accidentally send the whole enemy team flying out of everybody else's ultimate Like, you know, you gotta be careful as it is. But again, at least that's an active choice not rng So from that perspective, I don't like it, but I think to your to your exact description some rng like crit chance You know, whatever there's other types of rngs that exist out there I think those are fine If in most games and and I think that having rng can be fun It's just in this current iteration. I don't think it works Yeah, I think rng could be a lot of fun just not on the basic attack of a support that knocks people back That's yeah, like that's that's the incorrect way. I think to apply rng In the in Crimson Rage's question he brought up wukong I think that's fine. Like wukong occasionally like gets extra gold from a minion Or something like that, but you never really know where it's going to appear and all that stuff I think that's fine like Um, I actually don't like that. They made the the prime spirit guardian um Are it not rng like it always spawns the same Near every time I liked it better when it was rng and just didn't know what prime spirit you were getting at each time Like I think there's a lot of good things with rng and there's Ways to play around rng. Otherwise, you wouldn't have like magic the gathering and hearthstone existing like those games are all about Maximizing the chances that rng not not completely negating them. You could ever do that But maximizing and finding outs through rng and stuff like that So I think it could be a lot of fun. Just again Not on a not a knockback on a basic from work that just Like yeah, I'm just imagining right now jelly being enraged because he finally got somebody in his car In his calari ultimate and then mako just hits him with one basic attack and they're out of his ultimate And not even like trying to be nefarious, right? It's not it's just yeah It's not like mangu's using steel cue every single time I use my calarial. No, no, no It's purely it's purely rng based like it's I can be mad about it, but I can't really blame the mako player How am I gonna hit my bull rush? How am I gonna hit my bull rush it? If they're not locked into place still yeah, I don't know But no, yeah, it's like I said it's I consider like a detrimental rng because of those because of its effect More so than the rng itself, right? I mean there was the same argument in smash with I think it was princess peach, right? She could throw random items and sometimes one of them was like super op And she got it back to back and the rng was just in her favor It was just like well like we don't I just lose now Or you're sitting there spamming and you're throwing shit the whole time and then all of a sudden you it's like you lose it because of it So yeah, I don't I'm not a fan of that stuff And I think they ended up changing that eventually but like it's just That style of rng while it seems maybe cool and paper in some kind of development talk I just think in execution over a long term is more frustrating than it is good And I don't want people having to make Choices of like I'm not going to auto because I don't know when I'm going to do something that's going to Cause a disruption for my team or for my ad carry or lose us that opportunity to do something Again in isolation like in my 1v1 when I was in solo I never cared I was just like I'm throwing autos no matter what because I'm not disrupting anybody, but myself possibly You know what I mean, but I would imagine as a support you're like should I auto? I don't know They probably aren't even thinking about it Which is actually even worse because it's like they're just throwing and if it happens it happens which again sucks Anyway, I think we beat that one up Yep, uh as far as the other problem changes they changed some items Um, there really wasn't there wasn't anything substantial really No, not true. I told you guys wukong those three items that got buffed for wukong. He's a fucking menace Oh, yeah Wukong has been destroying games the way he used to a paragon now which whereas If you leave him alone, he's just going to push to the core and win He can backdoor like nobody's business, which I think was his identity, but to to in my opinion It's too far like he's just unstoppable at three items really and and just you can't do anything about it I had a game where a guy was literally just tanking the nexus with no minions by himself ending the game And there was nothing we could do about it because most of this a lot of shot Abilities are ground based so you can't do anything Especially while he's up in the air and there's a build a lot of people know about it where you can just almost Infantly stay up in air and continue to get your ultimate autos off It's he's a menace right now ban him in all your comp games Have fun with him in quick play because you can just destroy your games But no he's and because it doesn't matter if you lose lane You just have to wait long enough to get gold enough to get your items and you just push it and win It's it's insane, which is what I had hoped would exist to an extent, but this to me is too far So hopefully they'll kind of bring some of that back in and it's the items not so much wukong himself It's just the items that they can buy to be able to enhance their his ability to do that exact strategy I'll probably have a lot more to say about the item changes and the hero balance changes and everything after I've played the game a lot more, but like I said this week. I just haven't touched either But it says a rover primal unfortunate Happens Yeah, I do think that there was some good itemization and soul cause talking a little bit about it They're like there were some changes that were your typical cookie cutter builds are no longer exactly that I don't I wouldn't say it's like super far down It's like it's not like it's crazy itemization changes But I do think that there were some some meaningful nerfs and adjustments and the same thing towards some of the champions as well To kind of create a possible meta shift I still think in over primes favor Almost every champion is is fairly viable in the right hands of as far as skill is concerned Like I don't think that there's any like this guy is the worst and cannot be played and if you pay Pick him in your games. You're fucking instant losing. I don't think that that's the case I think that everybody is fairly viable, which is nice to see Yep, uh, you guys have anything I'll say about over from for a move on to red Nope No Oh rank reset. Oh, yeah, right reset. Yeah, we forgot about that Yeah, rank reset. So you do have to do oh actually speaking of ranked So not only did they do the rank reset, but everybody has to have 12 playable characters and be level 10 again So they moved it from they moved it back. So, um, you shouldn't have to worry too much about new players, you know And ruining your games, but I think at this point, um You know, most people will probably have gotten to that level, but at least it's nice knowing going forward Uh, that everybody has to hit at least level 10 before they can go in so I just think over prime has lost so many players over the past couple months that it that ranked Versus quick matches. Just it's it's it's rough to get ranked games It's rough to get quality ranked games. I agree with that. I don't It's because we've talked about it so much and I'll just quickly touch on them to give for anybody who's tuning in On the vod and stuff like that. It's mostly to me. It just comes down to the post 20 minutes The post 20 minutes is still just not fun It's just a stare off at mid lane waiting for someone to make a mistake and get picked off And then you go after and you just dance around the neutral objectives Because that's what ends game or now somebody didn't ban wukong and wukong just back doors and ends the game By himself. Um, so it's like that that's to me the state of ranked now granted I haven't put a lot a lot of games in it, but that's the feeling that I got as well. Um from The vibe I guess and the discord and stuff like that is it just Yeah, those those post 20 minutes. It just gets really really dull Unfortunately because everything else about the game is not it's so weird that it's like that hard shift It's like going from black and white tv to color tv or something You know what I mean? Like in the the first half it's like vibrant and alive and interesting and ganks are Pactful and it feels good and then 20 minutes hit and unless somebody's like super far ahead You just get into a stalemate for another 10 15 minutes until one team finally manages to pull it out Like it's just it's just wild or it's out of the fs like Something like even when the patch dropped I read through the patch notes and then I said main news message And I was like I'm ridiculously underwhelmed by this patch. Like yeah, yeah, they changed items. Yes. They added mako mako super fun Like I said before super fun character But the fact that they didn't touch on any of the stale Issues of the game were frustrating like it made me want to play the game less even with a new character there Because I was like well, it's still the same game the new character is not going to change that Like I whatever like it's just it's not good and they need to do something about it The cameras frozen by the way Not on my side. Yeah, it is on our side. It is on everybody else's side. Yeah But yeah, it is Hey, are we ready to move on from over from I think so I mean it's I just I guess I'm just sad because I think it's it's got such potential and it's it's so aesthetically pleasing um It does bum me out Um, I don't know what the changes can be But I I hope they figure it out and figure it out soon because I want to play it But I just I think we're all kind of in the same boat I'm not really other than trying it to be able to talk about it for the show and just you know For my own experience obviously trying to get you know, see how mako feels and how offline feels and stuff like that I just It's not enough to keep me wanting to grind in every single day Um, and you know, I know we're gonna talk about pred soon. Um, because that's there's something to be said in that same regard for them Um, is is you know, I think for both games I'm just lacking in a feel of like pulling me into want to log in and put time and energy into it And like you and I both especially we don't have like normal full-time jobs like a lot of people do So we really have no other Excuse other than just not wanting to go into these games and spend a lot of time in them Um, you know, and I think like guys like soul reaper and his team of guys who put together a ranked Mode themselves in their own discord are also trying to like, you know find some way to encourage people to be playing more games And it's still not enough like I And I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus because I think what they're doing is great Um, but this maybe could be a little bit of a transition into pred is it's like Those guys are putting together a actual ranked queue for people to be able to play in And they're still struggling to get people to play Because it's I think the game is just not enough to To warrant people wanting to spend a lot of time you give them a ranked grind and it's the game itself isn't fun enough Or it's too tilting to want to put a lot of hours into and I'm not entirely sure What either studio can do Immediately to improve that like I do think that pred Has done an amazing job patch over patch over patch of improving the game making it slightly better each time And and all that's but it's still not like enough for me to want to grind it and make it my main game or anything like that You know what I mean? So I don't know Speaking of pred, uh, they we really don't have anything for pred this week. They're they're just keep on keeping on um, I think uh It's starting to come down to the people that know how to play kira versus the people that don't know how to play kira And uh, there's been a lot less kira picking overall, but yeah um People that are really good with her have really shown Um, how she can shine in a game. She is um, she's quite good. Um I don't know like uh as you were talking about Overprime and predecessor and everything. I think I played them a lot more than you just overall just this week I just didn't feel like playing them. Um But I think it in december When they first both released I was about 80 overprime about 20 percent pred Yeah, now it's shifted to where i'm about 70 percent pred about 30 percent over Um, yeah, i'm like 60 40 I've probably played more pred in the last few months than I have overprime For for probably similar reasons about you're just gonna about to discuss But it's more of like a 60 40 for me. It just all comes down to their um Thank you changes really I mean that's that was really about the the biggest complaint I had with the game and they're also making Um, certain abilities a little quicker. Um, a little like they made basic attacks a little a little faster, which I felt that I said it back in december. I felt that everything was a little floaty um Putting decker stun bomb and everything and everybody told me I was just an overprime fed Fanboy and that I just didn't like skill shots and now that they've actually changed it everybody's like, oh, okay. Yeah Maybe maybe man goose was onto something back then I imagine that Everything's a little less floaty now or a little more crisp And I think that uh has contributed to my enjoyment or predecessor a lot more over over the uh the past few months I agree. I think I've um Me changing away from solo lane because I was getting really frustrated playing solo lane mostly just because it felt like I I it it really did feel like I had to play solo like it wasn't like I was playing a team game Uh, you know once I started talking to some people and reading up on some of the guides that I would see in the discord It was like no you just need to and solo you just push You don't you don't try and group because you're sacrificing too much if you do And that to me started changing as a style that I didn't really want I I didn't really want that to be the style. So when I switched to playing mid lane Um and feeling more like, you know, playing some of the mages I had way more enjoyment with the game because I felt like I could actually get around and interact a little bit more And that improved my enjoyment with with predecessor, especially being able to group up for the objectives and and feel like, you know I was contributing in some capacity versus just You know solo pushing and hoping that I don't get ganked, you know by mid lane or you know jungle or whatever Um, but yeah, so welcome back jelly knees. Hopefully you're back. You don't know if you're back. I'm back. I'm back. Okay We've transitioned a little bit to predecessor. So we're well, we have transition. We're talking about pred and Just our experiences Have you gotten to play much pred this week? Played a couple games before vx dropped and then haven't played since Same We've been playing a lot of vx veiled experts for those of you don't know, uh, it's in it's in a beta test right now And it's super fun Yeah, I don't think I think pred still has room Definitely still has a lot of room for improvement as does over prime But both of them they have a lot of stuff that they could change to make the game a little bit better, but Overall, I think pred is making those changes now. They weren't making them before whereas over prime has Kind of stalled out a little bit as far as major changes game. I think I mean, it was nice to see them change change it to where taking prime didn't Just kill the enemy team outright Like that and people probably don't remember that it used to be it didn't just kill the core And and the inhibitors it dealt damage to the enemy team whenever you're in the prime. Yep. Um But yeah, they still need to make some major changes to their objective thing before rum can come online My hope for over prime at this point is that they Do like this giant refresh patch that's gonna like change a whole bunch of stuff add new stuff Fix the minion problem fix the post 20 minute game problem and and do a bunch of that stuff And to an extent well what we've seen in the fangtooth changes from predecessor Right, like the fangtooth changes fundamentally changed how that game is played in a positive way And I hope that that's similarly that happened similarly for over prime at some point Yeah, hopefully we'll see something happen Yeah, I mean and people we've talked about it and I kind of I was hesitant to agree at first But I think that the the idea of the it seems like their patches are always like Two weeks behind or something like it just feels weird when they buff certain things nerf certain things Like it just like spear steardrop and over prime got the the cost got increased And it needed it it needed it Fucking two months two months ago like you know Um, I don't know Um, we should be transitioning into pred here, right? So what do we got to talk about not? There's not going on with pred really I think we've already talked about pretty much everything I wanted to talk about with pred If you guys are ready to get into the questions from the community Um Yeah, I think so again, I do think that as far as pred we talked about it each week and I keep iterating it I think that pred has improved week over week. Um, I think that they do things fairly slow and safe Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's also not super exciting So I don't really get like Like I was hoping that huntress would be or kira would be more exciting than she is but she just She's just native carry and that's about it at this point to me I still think that she has fun opportunity to be skill expressive I'm sure that there's some people who are already one tricking her and finding really neat interesting ways I haven't seen it yet So if anybody has like some youtube highlight of a kira doing really cool things that I haven't seen before Please link it in the ftm discord. I would love to watch it and learn about it. Um, but ultimately it's just like meh Yeah, she's cool though. Um, like I said, people are finding people are finding their pace with Or yeah, I'm sure there are some cool shit people don't cool shit with her out there She's fine Uh, let's transition into the questions for ftm from the community and the discord is linked in the description below If you guys have your own questions that you True at us So let's pull up these questions First one is coming from jalei leneo You could build your dream hero kit using a skill from five different existing characters What would you come up with also what existing or future character would be their rival? or ally That's uh, that's a that's a rough question to answer right there I already have my answer. What's your answer go for it? I want malaya and kalari a mix of their abilities together And it'd be the perfect kit. Yeah Oh, and I don't mean I don't I love over prime kalari. I really do but she's not who kalari is to me I want og paragon kalari back With the okay, here we go. We're gonna really mix and match now I want og paragon kalari with the predecessor right click where she can double dagger And she has two charges instead of just one because I think that's a fantastic change And then I also want malaya's ability to select a person to hunt down and if she does it she gets benefits from it But if they kill her they get benefits from it too Right. I want I want the full like min max kalari build of a character. I'm in I'm so in When I looked at this question The one I immediately thought of and I think I've brought this up like pretty much every week now Huang's kit in over prime. I think is the absolute best example of a hero kit in Any game I've played everything is so Tight and fucking works together so well in kuang's over prime kit uh, it It's not I'm not I'm not trying to fucking say that over primes better than pred because our kuang is so goddamn good But kuang is fucking great If you if you've just played him once or twice You're going to think he's absolutely dog shit because you're not used to Way he plays and the way you're supposed to use his abilities But when you when it clicks for you how everything interacts with each other and it's not just that It's not just the basic I do this combo. I do Q and then e and then right click every time to pull it off. No, you've got to mix it up It's a little bit like crunch. It's a little bit. I think crunch is another great kit But um, it's a little bit like crunch where you need to set things up, but you don't have to Reload it like crunch does so I mean just Everything about kuang's kit. I think it's just fantastic and if we could get more kits like that in both games, I would be happy boy yeah I have no idea how to answer this because I I think we'd have to think about this one like all week Yeah, well and I did think about it too and I still like so the problem that I run into is that I wouldn't change any Like I wouldn't steal an inspiration from the kits that are in these games What I would do is steal inspiration from other games to put into these games Yeah, I thought of that as well. Yeah. Yeah, so I would I would there's there's a and there's a lot man There's so many different ones like for me one of my favorite characters in league of legends that I like You know when I really started trying to you know get better at the game because it forced me to pay attention It's not really like lane dominant in the normal sense But it's malzahar and what you do so malzahar is uses You know a Damage over time that when it kills whatever it is or is attached to something that dies It bounces to the next thing and it can bounce to minions and it can bounce to champions Very hands off as far as that but it made me think about the game because I had the time to think about it Because I didn't have to worry about laning quite as much to focus on the rest of the game So I started focusing way more on oh, where's my jungler is there ways that I can help them Which lanes are pushed up if I want to rotate and use my ultimate So like I kind of wish that there was more Of that style because he's very easy for most new players But it gives you that opportunity to expand your your thinking on how you play the game So I would love to see that I still also think that that I don't know. There's just there's so many games I think you can like you know hotz has really really cool kits and characters in the way that they design them And then when they hit their power spikes that they could steal inspiration from so to be honest I don't think I have just one and I think there's so many that would you know I actually you know, I'll steal one World of Warcraft rogue no game has been able to capture what it felt like in vanilla Rogue I thought I when I went into MOBAs, I'd be able to find a rogue and I haven't been able to I think a Kali a Kali. Oh my gosh, I had a Kali and I had a Kalarian Kali My head at the same time a Kali from League of Legends Maybe it kind of gets the closest in the way that you use your combinations and energy and stuff like that But I think that would be really fun if the if a team if Yeah, if if one of these MOBAs was able to create that essence of playing a rogue I think that would be really neat But I also really hate stealth characters typically in MOBAs So I don't know how that would work, but uh, yeah Anyway, Kalari does a little bit of it, but it's still not quite the same thing as playing a rogue A little bit I think it'd be really fun if one of them could introduce the concept of chogall from haughts where you have two different players You'll like oh other sides of the world controlling the the same hero. That is such a cool Just off the wall concept. I think it would work in a third person Environment you'd have just one the one person the tanky guy controlling movement The other person is just all about placing skill shots and doing I I've done that with my wife before we both sat down and like I was mouse She was keyboard and we were you know moving around But I agree with you. I think that there's there are some creative clever ways to be able to do it Um, it doesn't make it viable and like the highest of competition level probably not always But it could make things fun and interesting and I and I'm all for You know, I know a lot of times like even when I was talking to soul reaper this last week You know, he always tends to think about the game from, you know 5v5 competitive or really high solo queue mentality and like you know and how the game works from that and and I respect that and I think that the game should Be balanced in a sense around those things, but like when I think of like hero kits I want something sometimes where it's just you know what this guy's just fun to play Like who cares like just let it be fun for fun sake and um, you know what to be honest Mako does that a little bit. He's fun for fun sake and and and so that's exciting and I think you can be viable higher up but Um, I I think a character like what you're describing in hot like are we typically you're typically going to see that in the Pro play maybe not. I don't know. I don't know if about hot's pro play, but it sounds fun It sounds like a good way to tilt somebody off there at their computer though if you're controlling get wrong Um, you know, so I don't know anyway Sorry, we're beating this one up a little bit But I think it's a really interesting question But I never could come up with like a full Kit that I was like happy with that was cohesive Which is also probably shows to these devs how difficult it can be To come up with new and interesting kits because it's It's not so it's not so easy. I would imagine what always felt funny about chogal Like he's a two-headed ogre. He has two heads and the heads in game argue with each other constantly And I can imagine that's how the players playing chogal are Like why the fuck do you move over there? Why can't you hit your fucking abilities? You know through I'm just playing in general with with jelly. He doesn't even have to be he doesn't even have to be controlling the same character as me I bet he wishes he could be sometimes though. That's Uh, let's move on to the next question from brady 117 Do you think non-hard crowd control abilities such as maroc's pushback Pays his alt push howitzer's mind or even giddy in small pull Did cancel abilities to cooldown even alt simple example would be phase I'll take a murdoch right clicking out of it. Did it just push her and still use the alt or As it is now should it completely capability? We kind of covered this a little bit last week I don't think anything should ever put If the ultimate hasn't dealt damage yet Then it shouldn't go on full cooldown It should go on like half cooldown or something like that But especially it spills it feels especially bad if it's something like just a quick knockback or Gideon it this is the giddy in an overprime his right click is a suction cup pulls you to the center that interrupting people is It it's so tilting so tilting and now i'm i'm imagining all the times meco has accidentally Interrupted abilities with his knockback. Yep, what it on his uh, basic attack that giddy in right click And in maco basic attack rng is effectively a stun Right, it's not just a displacement that i'm moving you from one place to another now I'm I'm actively unable to do other things which is a stun, right? That sucks That feels so bad I to me to this there's there's it's it's a nuanced answer But I wish like in those moments like so for example using the right click from giddy into Pull somebody I'm fine with it pulling them and it just now changes the way that the interaction of whatever ability was being used Is used so like if you were lining up a shot that was requiring a skill shot, but now I got pulled a meter to the right I just miss Okay, that's fine with me. I think that's that's a good interaction. Do you know what I mean? I but like and there's some some Where it kind of you just need to know the rules like what is unstoppable? What isn't unstoppable? What ultimate is always going to go off? What ultimate isn't what abilities cancel other abilities and I think when with especially the complexity between the two games You just don't know and and with a predecessor I think the thing that's extremely frustrating is like trying to CC layer and not knowing if that person is like because they're just spamming r over and over again It's like, okay Am I just gonna eventually get this and it doesn't matter how much cc you're putting out and stopping me from it Eventually, I'm gonna get it off. If unless you kill me and I hate that I think that you should be as a team that's going up against somebody Rewarded for managing to knock them out of their ability and it forces that person to be like Hey, do they have the cooldowns up that can stop me and I can't just Press the button and get away with it So there there does need to be some nuance and I do think that right now both games with especially with displacements It feels like it's might as well Just be a full on hard cc stun because it does it knocks you out of being able to press buttons You can't press buttons while you're in air You can still take damage while you're in air or all those things and it's it's just it's it's an uninteractive and a really bad way So I think both studios need to figure that shit out and make it better and feel better And I don't have an exact solution for them because I'm not a developer But as a player and especially as a casual player, it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating so I hope that answered the guy's question, but a really good question brady We kind of talked about it last week too, but still it's a good question and a good thought process Uh next question from star so star core zack Do you think that it's strange that most recent original hero for both predecessor and over prime appeared to draw strong connections Who over watch heroes will not carbon copies by any means? I do find it interesting interesting that they both come out near each other And look like have similar abilities to watch heroes reefer for kira and wrecking ball for What's the name of that fucking hamster? Is it actually wrecking ball? Or no, not winston, uh Hammond Hammond. Yeah, there you go. Hammond um I think there's only so much you can do As far as original as far as originality goes Um, I don't think they they really aimed to make a reefer clone in predecessor when they made kira I don't think they aimed to make a ham and clone I don't think they were trying to draw inspiration from from over prime, but from over watch I don't think it's a lot of it's just parallel thinking really There's an amount that there's no such thing as an original thought anymore, right? Like they're every almost everything can be pointed back to if they didn't copy that thing They at least drew inspiration from that thing, right? And so I mean we I move With kira and predecessor though and uh vala and hots. I mean there's a little more there, but um But like you said parallel thought processes, right? Like it's thematics are so Played out at this point But when you think of I want a character that's going to be riding on like a ball Right and walking around on a ball like that. Okay, great One you're going to kind of naturally start to gravitate toward things that you've seen with characters that already do that but you're also You're limited by your own thought at the same time Whereas like well now that I've thought of wrecking ball from overwatch Now I have to actively try to get out of thinking of wrecking ball from overwatch and need to like You almost have to convince yourself out of thinking about that character, which is its own task by itself, right? But it's Nothing's original everything's derivative, right? Like it's just it sucks But I wish they did something. I think I think mako and kira are two Different examples of the same problem. I think mako to an extent Is is like a feels like familiar ish that we've seen this kind of thing sort of before But not nearly as much as feels that way in predecessor Yeah, right and so are they both on that spectrum? Absolutely But one of them is significantly further on that than the other and that's I think that I think is a bigger problem Of I think there should be thresholds where you're like is this similar? Yes. Is it the same? No Whereas kira is over that threshold or like it's not only similar It's the same in a lot of ways Right and that I think becomes problematic. Yeah Uh, I mean this this question I It made me think of immediately the uh south park episode where the writers were basically making fun of themselves that simpsons had already done at first Um, so every good idea that they had for you know their episode of south park They couldn't figure out that oh simpsons already done that simpsons has already done that and it's like fine Okay, so they made a whole episode of how simpsons has already done everything and it's very to me It's apt to these situations. You're going to run into situations where For whatever reason you're going to be like. Oh, that's just like such in such game Uh and such in such character I think where the problem becomes is where it gets a little too on the nose where it feels like copied homework Uh, and that's where I personally start to be like uncomfortable It makes me feel like did you did you really just one for one almost everything across this because it's not just the abilities It's the aesthetics. It's the you know what I mean like Did you just change like the voice line slightly like you know put the commas somewhere else You know make the periods a little bit different like it just starts to feel You know like you you stole it rather than that you took inspiration from it. Um, I'm all for Borrowing inspiration from things that have existed before like there's no Like I think I made the joke that like you know world warcraft can't have a claim to all dwarfs You know just like you can't you know like you can't there's going to be some crossover of a dwarf with a hammer Or a dwarf with a big beard and you know and being a blacksmith and stuff like because that's just Naturally lore at this point in the fantasy world But when you get into like named characters with very specific lore and very specific abilities and you're just One for wanting them. I think that becomes problematic and uh and it starts to feel like can you do anything your own You want to call this an original hero, but how original really is it? Um, I think pred has some work to do in that regard Uh, and I think Mako, maybe Borrowed some aesthetics I don't think his kit feels very much like most other kids I've seen even the overwatch character that they're describing He uses a tether to be able to do the things that he does and it's not and he launches way up in the air And he does like to me like there might be some overlap, but it's very very small And I think to jelly's point it's like, you know being on a spectrum of Inspiration and borrowing versus outright just stealing an idea is is two different things And one I think is okay and paying homage to something that's creative and cool And another one is just outright theft in my opinion I think it's also a little uh more difficult to come up with an original adc kit than it is to come up with support or mage or Offlane kit adcs are just boring as fuck in general. There's only so much you can do Press left click to make to make them more interesting without doing something that a bunch of other people Yeah Um, yeah, go ahead. I was gonna do another example, but we're good Yeah, let's move on to the next one here Are there mechanics from other games that you would like to see in one of the remakes either as a hero kit or in general a couple examples shimmy could have been rhythm based a Legal legends barred like passive where you have to collect chimes over the map that's back up Personal buffs a more physics based hero where their damage scales off the velocity and the objects they fling on top scale et cetera I have a list on my computer of Character ideas from other games from other game genres that I would love to see put into amoba And my list was specifically more toward ethereal, right? But but it could go for any of these 3d mobas Right and a rhythm based character is exactly one of those ideas Right is that like that would be would it be extra difficult? And you need to be the right kind of person to do that Right like me playing a rhythm character versus viking playing a rhythm character going to be two very different plays of that character Yeah, but at the same time like that would be such a cool idea Of something you could bring from somewhere else to the 3d moba space to create a unique experience And I think there's plenty of options like that Another one that I thought of is and this was from legal legends and valorant released a character I can't think of what her name is in valorant, but zary in league of legends They talked about like trying to bring an fps to amoba right and like doing all of these things And I sat there and I was like well, why in 3d mobas? Why wouldn't you just bring an fps to amoba? Like why wouldn't you put a first person camera on a character? And that's how that character plays right and they have their own you like buffs and debuffs accordingly because their camera is in a different position But that could be a unique experience right and I'm not even talking about balance wise So I like there's because there's plethora of issues balance wise with that sure right But just the pure like like fun for fun sake like we said with mako earlier Right that kind of stuff could be fun for fun sake and could be a cool addition into these games that has not been explored yet I agree Now I would love when we talk about four fun modes too That was one of the ones that I think I threw out when we talked about it like months and months and months ago A first person mode like imagine playing a lot of these characters in first person versus having to play them right now In their third person state like how much would that change things if you were playing each of these characters in first person Like I think it would be so fun. It would be really interesting to see, uh, you know, but I agree with you I think that Oh gosh, man. There's there's so many that like my favorite of the ones he listed was a physics based hero I agree with you shouldn't be being rhythm based or something like that would be super fun And I think could be really interesting I think there's a lot of creative ways you can go about it But a physics based hero I thought was really neat because one of the things that we talk about a lot and especially in these 30 d mo bus is Utilization of space and I think if you have a physics based where it's like, you know Jumping off of something and then landing and doing like a superhero punch or you know Having a hammer or something like that and creating a bigger You know Amount of damage or a wider damage or doing something else that's physics or again the longer I hold this The more damage it's going to do Um those types of things I I think are severely lacking in both games and could in my opinion be implemented In a way that would be wukong right right now We talk about like, you know his you double space and he launches up and comes down If there was something that was more like, oh if I use this ability that gets me up in the air first And then switch to doing that and doing my double space and I come down with all that extra force and someone happens to be underneath me I do like almost an execute worth of damage, you know, like that would be really interesting It'd be really cool in a team fight. I I think There are opportunities in in all roles I know ad carry we talk about tends to be like, you know, and I mentioned just a second ago Like left click only but other games now granted They're not 3d mobas and that's where the difficulty comes But like league of legends ad carries are all or the most part very interesting They have very interesting kits, but it's top down So you get a lot more opportunity to express yourself in a top down moba versus a 3d moba so The challenge is really hard for these devs to come up with some of those interesting kits that Appeal in a 3d space versus a top down space and uh, and I don't know it's very difficult But I do think that there's chances and opportunities the rhythm based one sounds really fun And I would be terrible at it, but it would be fun. Now when you guys are saying say in rhythm based I'm not real sure what what I'm thinking is like BPM or like metal health singer where you have to Get someone to beat Sure, I was thinking crypto the necromancer was my thought process behind it But but basically the same idea of it is a beat based Character where you have to do things or rather you benefit more from doing things on on beat versus off beat right because and like and even Blood hunter I'm glad this question was here as well because blood hunter says something earlier in the chat That made me kind of have another one of those thought processes is for ethereal I want a hero like zerg from starcraft Or like the zerg from starcraft right and that that in my head I was like what if you put like a top down camera and made the person play it like an rts From a 3d from the 3d moba perspective Right, I was and again balance nightmare right and this is purely like a dream of consciousness But that that was the thought process that I went of like how could you Even begin to start doing that to offer a different perspective to bring a different Style of play into the game If you were going to go that route and try and go like really balls to the wall out there and switching up how the play styles can work Yeah, I know for me when I thought of rhythm One of the games because I'm not a rhythm based player games because I typically I'm really bad at them But one that I've really enjoyed was called hi-fi rush It's a game that kind of recently came out You're not punished necessarily for doing it off rhythm But you're greatly like everything is greatly improved when you manage to put your rhythms together and do things on rhythm By the way, if you guys haven't played hi-fi rush very enjoyable game It quirky and fun for everybody I think and they have ways to improve it for those of you who are rhythm suffering like me To make it a little bit easier to be able to make things happen But anyway, I just think that there's there's a rhythm based champion or a combo based champion like take like a like a Like a fighter, you know, like I know I don't know. I just think that there's opportunity And and I would love to see these explored It's really weird to me sometimes when I think about like our community week after week is coming up with way cool Fun interesting ideas and then we get like some of those bland things from these developers and I'm just like Ah, come on man. Do you need an idea guy? I'm not I I'm just sitting around I could be an idea guy if you need an idea guy In fact, we're giving it out every week on here on fcm free ideas for you to do and implement into your games like please An overarching game mechanic that I think would be cool in both predecessor and over prime and maybe even ethereal Um, and I think this would also solve a lot of the problems with your off lane your off lane Bullying with ranged heroes is the way Aragon used to do it where you had to pick up Your fucking gold card points experience, whatever off the ground after it was dropped Force that murdoch to have to jump to have to walk forward to actually get anything out of that Out of being able to bully that off lane And correct me if I'm wrong and maybe this is just one of the iterations But the other thing was it was based on last hits If you didn't last hit Then it was dropped on the ground and if you did last hit it could become it could come to you directly Yeah, I love right and so there's there's benefit of that of now Not only are you prioritizing last hits, but now if they're missing last hits They have to put themselves in extra danger to go get the would the last the scraps because it wasn't full xp It was the it was it was only area area xp Right, but you had to pick up the scraps yourself off the ground and I thought that was a cool Like aesthetically it was a cool thing to do for that game, even though I know a lot of people hated it, but I think for me, I know I remember head of when I was playing it was when they would Like somebody come into your lane and pick it up or like the support would pick you grab in this stuff And it wasn't just it was local. It wasn't just like your experience to be picked up It wasn't your goal to be picked up and you're like, bro. Why are you? Yeah, I need that like so that that that was I I don't know I do think though that there is there's a way again to find that happy medium of like, hey I want to punish these these op and I think pred actually does a decent job where the solo laners Have opportunity to bully the shit out of those ranged guys now every once in a while You'll get a ranged guy who just is really really good and Manages to make it work, but in over prime. It's way easier to get away with The range into melee. It's very very punishing Because lanes are shorter There's just a lot more movement abilities. There's the the portals when they open up to be able to escape So there's a lot more. I think that that makes it harder for the the melee guys to go up against ranged guys It's mainly the bushes Well bushes definitely help, but I also think that with pred Not having bushes makes trading super difficult regardless because the minions will chase you for fucking ever Which also then messes up your your lane because now you have everybody all over the place We don't have to go down that road. I think that's that's a problem into itself But at least bushes gives you that opportunity to be able to reset and be able to poke and then come back and do all that Fun stuff, but uh, there there should be a happy medium And I think pred does a better job of allowing Meleys to punish ranged Offlaners over prime does a better job of being able to have trading patterns that are a little bit more cohesive with other mobas But they also allow for range champions to abuse Meleys For a while. Yep. The other overarching mechanic that I thought of when uh all this question and um This would apply far more to over prime. I think that pred is again I'm going to pull from here's the storm here shared experience mm That would be interesting that would be a way for over prime to keep people in lane In a lane and actually punish people for leaving their lane so If if you've never played here's of the storm, um It's shared experience across the team Anytime a minion dies everybody it goes to a collective experience meter and everybody levels up off of that collective experience meter And what that does is it forces people to actually stay in a lane? Because if you're not if the enemy team is soaking a lane and you aren't soaking the experience out of that lane Your whole your entire team gets way behind. So that would be a way um You know right now you push A minion wave an over prime underneath the tower It doesn't do shit and there's barely any punishment for it like they they lose some gold But it's really not that much um if they're losing out on experience for their entire team If I don't that then that that's a different matter entirely You know, um It would keep people from rotating as much because once you rotate you're missing out on experience for your entire team You know if you miss that um If you miss that rotation, I don't know Um, I don't think that would be a great mechanic I think there's better ways to solve over prime's issues, but That's something to look at to be looked at I guess I think I know I think it would be a great mechanic to be honest I actually do because it same thing with hotz right now I mean not that i'm a great hotz player, but like there's That you have to pick and choose when you're gonna group and when you're gonna five man and uh, I think that over primes Struggles is exactly what you're describing is that it's like after 20 minutes It's just group where you lose and and that's that's the problem Is like there is no like hey, do you know what right now? They're they have all their lanes pushing into us and they're sacking xp To be trying to do whatever we could have our guy That's a catch-up mechanic or if anything, you know what I mean like gold and xp being collected in those side lanes To try and bring yourself back into the game and then group for the objectives. I don't know. I think it would be great I do I don't know if it would solve all of over primes problems But I think that that would be something that would change the dynamic of what we currently have And over prime could benefit it from it the most. I think it would really make it way more interesting Uh, so I would love to see that I don't think they well, but I would love to see it. I don't think they Now they needed you something no fuck Uh, let's move on to the final question here from crimson rage Where should either game stay when it comes to complexity? Lots of great feedback ideas in my opinion get immediately downvoted by players in both communities due to being complex difficult for new players will adding complexity to the games especially during early access be detriment That's a simplifying gameplay mechanics or lowering the skill floor a better course of action um my answer to this is if You're not introducing a complex mechanic because you think players don't get it then However, I also think there's absolutely nothing wrong with having less complexity in a game if it adds to the fun I think you can go both ways of this right like don't add something to be complex just for the sake of being complex Like that's a terrible way to do it Right, you need to so if you have something in your game. That's complex just because It doesn't have a reason to be complex Then you should be simplifying that down right because there's no there's no reason for that And there's an amount and I think this straddles the line between those two things that active items are like I said right on the line of Unnecessarily complex versus complex with a cot or complex with a purpose Right like and it would really come down to item to item Well, could this really just be a passive instead and we're just telling people to to press a button because Or does it need should it be because it's so strong or it's so whatever that it needs to be an Active choice for the player to use right like that's an that's an example, right? And so I think complexity is okay new player base are not As long as a you have ways to instruct on that complexity And b it has purpose in being complex Right stance switchers are inherently complex because they effectively can have two entire kits in one character That you have to then manage back and forth depending on what you're trying to do That is complexity with a purpose right that that is not just complex to be complex All right, and I think that's where these games need to figure out what they want to do And what purpose their complexity has and then look at that to either simplify or expand on their complexity Good answer Why thank you Everyone talks about how complex ethereal is right and I think While I definitely think there are ways there are places to improve that the complexity does not have purpose There are a lot of places that the complexity does have purpose And I think that is is most evident in the class system Right the class system is going to inherently make the game more complex. Malaya can climb walls. Leah can fly Why can't they do the other? Right that that is and but there's reasons behind it. There's purpose behind it. There's balance behind it Right, you've given that complexity a reason to exist Right, whereas you can do other things that Uh Again, I go I go back to the active versus passive items right ethereal is all passive items Right, you can find other ways that great. We made the class system, which is making the game more complex But let's simplify in other ways where we're going to make our items all passives Mm-hmm Right and let's let's find ways It's uh, it's a balancing act of give and take of you don't want to just endlessly add complexity into your game You want to find ways that if you're going to add complexity you want to make something else simpler So you can keep that balance on both sides as well I I think you answered it pretty much perfectly The only thing I'm going to add on to is is the the fun value Like I think people are going to put up with a very complex idea if they're having fun If they're if they if the complex idea is pulling away from I'm having fun Then it's a bad idea because then there are people the only the only the most hardcore are going to tough it out to learn it And there's maybe there's something an argument to be made. Okay Well, we want only the hardcore to benefit from this complexity and okay, that's fine But I I think that that in to to this question does a disservice to the new player, right if you're Going to focus on trying to make the game as fun as possible and have people investing their time and energy into it The limited amount that we all get as human beings Make sure that it's fun. I think that's really where it comes down to Uh jelly hit the nail on the head for almost every aspect of it of where you know, don't make it complex just for complexity's sake Like, you know, just have fun with it is learning You know, like in the myths for example being able to fly Yeah, that sounds fucking fun to me Even if it's complex if I have to learn like, you know, when is it the right time to do certain things? Sure, but I'm flying around a fucking map and doing some cool Shit like I'm learning how to do that or being able to climb walls or break down walls or you know Execute this kit versus that kit, you know using these items versus that items Is it all fun for the player experience and as they grow in that complexity? Um, you know, it's it's to me. That's where it really comes down Is is the player leveling up are they learning like and I mean leveling up their their skill Like, you know, is it something where they can be introduced to it over time? You know, is there a base level entry level version of for just people who are like, you know I want no complexity, but I want to play your game because it looks cool I want to get into there and do nothing where my brain has to do more than rub its two cells together Give me that too. Like it's it's again I think where a lot of games run into problems is complexity for complexity sake Like it's just like why do I have to manage all of these things is so frustrating and like it's so annoying And uh, and so if you're having those kind of complaints from your player base, you're fucked up You need to do something else a majority sake Like if you have just a few guys who are just like complaining to complain when you obviously discard those but make it fun That's that's all I have for this. I mean I Another example I have of is actually reference to dnd that when I'm playing when I'm DMing a dnd game I have a personal philosophy that if I can't explain why a player shouldn't be able to do something They should be allowed to do it It's never going to be a just because I say so you can't do the thing I have to have justification behind it If you can't explain why a mechanic needs to be complex It shouldn't be complex. Mm-hmm Yeah, I think I think complexity should breed opportunity and the less opportunities created by that complexity the The less likely you should even have it Again, I'm going to get back to quang's kit cause quang's kit never prime is very complex But because of that complexity you have the opportunity auto cancel to um deal extra Use of the electric damage to auto cancel to escape to Age that complexity breeds plenty of opportunities. Whereas if you had something like You know if you do this certain set of Things on gideon and then do something at the right time his q hits way harder All you're doing is introducing a complex system make his q hit harder like that's Not cool. Um the way fault did his kit is um every once in a while you would be able to Reset his abilities, which for the most part meant that you would q right-click q However, it also created opportunities to use his e To to e q and then e to escape it created um plenty of opportunities and it gets get Yeah, anyway dead game Well, yeah, but I think bringing that up is also a good thing because it's like okay Were there Moments in fault that we can point to and I'm sure you guys could point to it harder than I could of where the game was missing that element of either complexity or Fun or was it complex for complex reasons that didn't need to be complex Where were there moments that I know of a story that mangoose could talk about where in testing where you're spending so much time talking about a Passive and whether or not people are gonna understand said passive that you have to derail it. Yeah derailing the opportunity to address real You know problems and things that need to be fixed and And again, I think that where sometimes devs get in their own way And they start to think that they have the right idea versus what the players want players don't know what they really want They're just waiting to be told what they want, you know, like it's just It's a it's a fine line that I feel like that the devs really need to do to find those complex interactions that are fun and engaging and keep people wanting to play versus It's complex and I don't like it so I'm not going to play because it's too complex And I have other games that are less complex that are fun And I'm not going to be tilted out of my mind and yelling at my friends over discord because the game's complex or this mechanics complex or whatever So, um, I I think that's the real question and the real answer It's like, you know, are we making a fun experience versus just an experience that we think is cool? And so because we think it's cool, we're going to keep it in our game Yeah, I mean fox mccloud Hit it perfectly as well Like mangu said fault did a good job of adding complexity in the right ways in my opinion And I agree there the vast majority of complex Features in fault the aspect system comes to mind right the aspect system was a cool complexity to add into the game Did it make the game more complex? Absolutely But was it a way that it was complex that benefited the game also absolutely And there were issues with the aspect system, but the but from an idea standpoint to implementation It was 95 percent of the way there most of the time And I think that is kind of what you should strive for when introducing stuff like that is Again complexity with a purpose All right That's it for the sneak in another one, but we could save it for next week if you wanted to uh, yeah, we'll save it for next week So Where's our rapid things up for tonight? um, whatever we'll get to your question next week in the uh in this segment, but um Yeah, any final thoughts before we roll out guys Um if go ahead and plug yourselves Oh, okay, that's it. You can go plug yourself. That's a that's a different stream. Um, I so I've been streaming a little bit more this last week playing Veiled experts. Uh, so if you guys haven't checked it out. It isn't a beta right now Open test. You just have to go on to steam. I think we're on epic store and you can get it. Um, yeah So follow me on twitch, uh, follow me on twitter and here on youtube where I upload the vods now instead of live stream I just upload my vods from twitch on youtube. Um, that's all I got Sorry, I didn't play enough of these games. I have a lot more spicy takes Hopefully I didn't make anybody cry this week Delanese Uh, yeah ethereal test is coming up may april 29th and may 4th for patreon members and then may 5th through the 7th for everyone Exciting times. I mean fortnight hates me to already joined the patreon actually while we've been in here Linking me. I got immediately almost immediately got the email saying that he joined the patreon That's fantastic. So yeah, join the patreon if you want access to those early days And then otherwise just make sure you're keeping an eye out for how to download the game and get access And all that stuff when that comes out I don't so excited ethereal win Appreciate everybody hanging out with us this week not a whole lot of news The biggest news of course coming out of ethereal, which is really cool Everybody's been looking forward to getting their hands on that and i'm looking forward to But um that is going to wrap it up for this week. Thank you to everybody that's watching the video Thanks to everybody that's stayed stayed with us in the live for now. This is the four of the minions