 And I don't know what the hell happened to transcripts on YouTube, but I know that I can't find how to turn them back on. But I think that Pete has been turning them on. So I've been getting transcripts for a lot of the calls that Pete is on, although Pete is not on this call. But if anybody sees something that says create transcript. There's a zoom function to create transcripts. I'm still trying. Yes, you got it. So I hit show captions. And I think that that's the way to initiate transcripts. Oh, captions, gotcha. And then you can probably, I think then you can turn off if you don't like seeing it. I think you're totally right. I think what happened is they hid it under captions and I was looking for anything like transcript or whatever and it was missing entirely. Bethany, thank you. And now I don't have to worry next call. Yeah, because on a call yesterday I didn't turn it on I didn't get a transcript file and I'm like, yeah. So sense doing should we recap last conversation for I think only Stacy wasn't here yesterday. So you could start there. I kind of also want to just start with a check in around sense doing just to see where we are before getting specific on which which projects and so forth because I do want to do an update on on what the options are but I kind of want to do a check in. So, anybody want to check in. So, my thought I'm reading that Washington post gift that Kevin said around this morning that makes it somewhat clear that Civil War is not off the table in in in the United States, and that agitates me to want to do more sense doing at a much, much higher level. I'm with you, thank you. And I, I think the sense of that urgency, whether it's climate disaster, or in class as you were trying to interact with Daniel about hey, our food system is busy not changing and we need to change it etc. There's a sense of urgency that many of us feel that is somehow not making its way properly to them. Anyone else check in safety please. Yeah, so I just want to say that in the background, they're doing construction downstairs. So it's really hard to concentrate but there's constant drilling and I had a flood yesterday so anyway. I clicked on your email to see what the call was about I saw that I had put something in the chat. So the reason I came is if I move to put something in a chat. That means that there's something I want to clarify so I figured I might as well be here could be for me. Sounds great. And please do use the chat liberally. That'll be great. By the way, we are so when you were talking earlier I wasn't now it sounds like there is a robot drill about to break down your door so yes. Avoid the robot drill. Never a good outcome in the movies. Anyone else to check in please mark. So following up on on Jack's point. You know, the reason that I was sort of intrigued originally in by the by the topic of, you know, COVID and Pete's posts and Grace's posts, etc. And it was because, you know, they're actually important to all of us on a very basic level of risk management and and information that that ideally we all would know, and have made sense of when it comes to COVID precautions. So I saw a very practical purpose to that topic around the idea of of sense making doing whatever. And, and so to stray from that to Civil War, for example, which I've heard a lot of podcasts on. I'm not sure how you make. I mean, I'm not sure that you can make sense of that topic. I mean you can explore the topic certainly but I'm not. I'm not. Anyway. And, you know, in climate change, I don't think tackling a wicked problem makes sense in the context of a sense making exercise. So just just some quick thoughts. Thanks, Mark. And I, the way I tried to describe them a moment ago, I see these, these sort of cataclysmic things coming at us as motivators for us to step in and do more of this. What we pick as a sense doing exercise matters a lot. And some of these are thorny hyper object problem, you know, wicked problems that, you know, we'll take bites out of when we can. Yeah, I just want to share that one of the things I found has been the most effective things to do in a group conversation is to automatically go to the original question and try to see if that's the best way to frame it in the first place. So I just wanted to share that because usually it's not the best way. Thank you Stacy, and asking the right question is super important. Mark, I'm fine. To that, I must say when you, you said about COVID let's try to understand what would have been an ideal response and I think on the one hand that's a great question because often a lot of comments about oh the government's doing this that is like, I don't want to be in their backseat driving is easy. On the other hand, ideal response must include the people's reaction to whatever you're doing. And that's the point that, you know, it's easy for us to sometimes other or at least, you know, the cry other people's reaction, totally on board with that and the question of how diverse our group is remains relevant. On the other hand, certainly, you know, there's one thing that is imaginative sense making kind of let's start from first principles and imagine something better. That's one type of question. There's what happened here since making which is more about what are people's motivations and priors so that we can try to repair a broken dialogue. They are very different exercises, possibly requiring different tools I don't know. And that's why being clear on whatever question we want to ask matters a lot. Thanks Mark on time. Yeah, I would kind of expand a bit and what we've been saying here to say that it's really the first question, because we're not going to. What I don't think we're going to stop with just one since doing so it's more of a prioritization and saying what's it and what's out would be my suggestion and then. Yeah, it can involve a large topic but we do need to probably take a part of it that's not quite as wicked to start with and I really think smaller is better every time I've done something similar to this in the past the questions, always been too big. But yeah, those are some thoughts. Thanks, our class do you want to check in. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, maybe following up on what Mark was just saying, just from a very practical perspective I'm just working on our next webinar actually on our first webinar with this new company we just formed. And the topic is soil and water and bringing attention to the needs to do the linkage between healthy soil and water and absorption capacity and holding capacity of water to soil. And as we are recording a panel, I have one guy on there who owns a hedge fund company. I have land all eggs, a panel on there which is a dairy company, you know that has its own farmers and so on. And the challenge that my partner and I discussed is that I enlarge the industry is not up to speed about the complexity severity of a change in climate and the impact that will have on the entire industry. So the, so we, we, we are bringing the top and I just had a conversation this morning with the, with this guy from the, from the hedge fund. The challenge is to bring the conversation down to common sense. And that's one of the good statements right to where you can explain to a lay person. What this means and how to engage with it. So, sense making is really simplifying complex things and putting them into terms that that anyone can follow and understand, because we can't solve problems if we don't have agreement on what is the problem. And this is the theory theory you philosophy right the social social systems change management idea of theory you is that the first, the first major time you spend on the iceberg model, right is to climb out and understand what are you all looking at. And then you come to a stage of presencing until everybody sort of gets the big picture stuff. And so we have a tendency to get lost in in details get lost in technical perspectives, and to climb back out of that and get on top of what what is the big impact here so I mean, in my case soil, but really simple concept we got to repair soil, and then we got examples around this and then we can say here's what it takes to do that, and then you go deeper and deeper, but there is, there's a hierarchy and information. Not everything is of equal importance. And, and I love the Don La Meadows, you know, leverage points of a system way to look at this because you start this narrative right and once you have agreement on the top narrative. And then you can get into the next into the administrative layers into the execution layers and the operationalizing layers from there. So that's, that's how I look at sense making. If that makes sense. Thanks class. Nancy we're just doing a light check in round just to see where we are about sense making and how we feel. Most everybody's gone, except me and you. I'd like to go and then if you'd like to check in that be great and then I'll, and then I'll go to Mark and Bentley who got their hands up. I'm going to, I'm going to kind of a strange place about this. Maybe it's because grace and Daniel have left the list or say they've left the list. Just when I thought things were getting interesting and I have in my head. I was influenced a lot by Scott Peck's model of community building way back when that says most communities are in pseudo community. Usually it takes falling into chaos, and making their way out through emptying is the third step he calls it into true community. And emptying is a little bit feels like group therapy maybe but isn't group therapy and it's it's a way of saying hey, when you did this I felt this and then you sort of find your way into a new place but, but his thesis basically told me that it takes often pressure and it takes a lot of ideas to actually forge interesting communities because you don't know who's going to leave, how you're going to respond you don't know about each other in those crises and so forth. And it felt like in a couple of the different interactions we were having in particular with grace and Daniel, we were getting to those places that were really interesting. This is a tiny example, grace on email which I don't handle long emails thread well thread well threads well, I don't respond in time I try to make thoughtful replies and then I, it's really hard for me to participate on forums and threads. I'm much better in calls and in person, all the time. I was asked, hey Jerry, when you caught COVID which I did on December 4, didn't reality smack you in the face. And what she meant was, what she meant was, I think she had a working assumption that I was immune to code because I was all back stuff. And on the Thursday call last week I was like, Grace, I had no concept in my head that I was that I had some kind of magic shield. I think that I was lowering the odds of getting badly sick or maybe even dying from the disease but I of course could pick up the disease that like that the mechanism of action is such that there's no magic shield. And I didn't get a reply back and I think she's off the list and all that. And that was just one of multiple different kinds of examples of, we were just maybe getting to the places where some of those things are possible. On a larger scale, I'm frustrated and excited in equal parts because this shit is so hard. And we are a little community who've been here with Goodwill for a couple years, probably getting close to three years pretty soon I guess in May or April it'll be three years. We, we had the Miles Fiedelman incident a while ago where he was basically he barged in here and said, Oh, I know who you all are you all don't do anything. And in some sense, that struck me to the quick because we haven't done enough we haven't done very much we've chewed slowly on a bunch of different problems and I feel like I would love to have done more in this group and I'm not really standing up personally to what I could be doing in this place on these topics that I'm so passionate about and I'm doing a lot of soul searching right now to figure out how to step up and do more in the new year which is starting in 11 days. And so, so now scoping back down the sense doing when this came up as a conversation it came up partly out of pressure of hey, Rob, Keith saying hey people. Are we going to do anything what is the mission here are we open global mind are we not. There's some evidence that what that Daniel and Grace's critiques are hey y'all are open global mind in name only that there's not a lot of open mindedness here. You know what they're saying I get it and I think that maybe a lot of us are liberal progressive leaning and have a lot of assumptions that are we're not putting on a table and either questioning or at least explicitly acknowledging. Because what I think Daniel was doing was trying to like get under those assumptions and say hey your assumptions are stupid. And we haven't, we haven't had that conversation. We haven't slowed things down enough to be able to get into the meat of those things. So, when I was thinking about sense doing a piece of what turned into this project idea was also Kevin Jones getting really enthusiastic about Mark on Twan's idea loom project and saying, Oh, let's do that. Okay, everybody, let's just, let's just go do that. And I know that Mark on Twan has a limited time budget so I was worried that he was being sort of drafted in to a project that he might have not have the resources do. And then yesterday on a call, I realized something because Mark on Twan explained a bit of how ideal and works, which was that it's very connected to mailing list threads if the ideal loom is designed to absorb a mailing list thread and then make sense out of the arguments in the thread. And I was busy saying hey let's do sense doing let's go over and take our conversation over the matter most into a channel, which would break idea loom. But then I also was having a different thought of, let's get away from the recriminations of he said she said this government was better that kind of was better. And let's do a green fields plan for what would a sane government do when faced with a pandemic coming in. It's like what would what would have just been better policy in a green field way, which is a conversation I still want to have, maybe not in this setting at all. So I'm, I'm painfully aware that the more specific we can choose something to focus on the more likely we are to get it done and to have some success that we need to pay, we need to scope something pretty narrow and like say with it for a while. So I need to figure out which direction to go and Mark Antoine I'm sorry that you felt like I had just nixed ideal them all together I didn't mean that I meant, here's a bunch of different paths we could still take and this is my reasoning behind the different paths, which I'm trying to And sort of my heart is in my throat because I know that we kind of want to have some success on some of these things. And every time I take a bite out of the elephant. It's like, man, this thing is tougher than I thought it was. And elephant has more blubber on it than I thought it was its skin is tougher I don't know what metaphors to jump to. But that's all in my head and heart right now as we step into this conversation. I'm glad I got nothing. Nancy if you'd like to help on the floor. Okay, so I jumped in because of the idea loom idea, because it's a challenge that I'm facing in a couple of other spaces, where both kind of well, well formed and well contained communities all out to very wide and dispersed networks, engage in interesting exchange that in the moment has value for whoever is in the moment is in it. But then either ages or if you have a slack that doesn't you have a free slack it disappears. And really at the practice level in the community where we're concerned about practice at the practice level those are gems, case stories, examples of rifts and variations, all those things are a huge augmentation for the practice and help develop the practice further. But they only benefit those who are in the moment in that second, which is those are beautiful moments. So there there's the importance of that engagement. And, you know, Jerry I was making notes about you know modalities and who's available and you know who has the time to actually slow down and get into what verses. And then there's a billion million threads and more resources are being dumped in and, you know, I'm not being heard becomes a really challenging dynamic in that flow between information and multiple threads so you know I go, I deal I want to try this with the liberating structures community. Because as it's grown it's lost a lot of its important connection stuff and some of that is domain related and some of that is community related and some of the practice related and I'm a community to practice junkie. So I will, I will name my addictions early on, though I'm very sad to hear all the stuff about chocolate but I won't get into that today. So, and Lucas choppy, who is that Kiko chat, and Fisher quaw, and I will happen to have a conversation about this right of when this came up on the thread, and I read the thread selectively I personally don't resonate with a lot of the back and forth. That's just, you know, I'm an old lady, I'll own that okay. And they said, Oh yeah. Totally, you know this is really much in alignment with the challenge we're facing. And, you know, Lucas said, any kind of connective tissue that he could help design or build I mean that guy said generous he's, you know, it's like an idea. Let's do it I mean it's just tremendous so like, how could that link into Kiko chat or whatever. And again, linkages are the point here in the end. Right. So, when it became about coven that that's, and that whole thing emerged with grace I'm thinking, Okay, this is where we do actually need to pick things apart here, because we're dealing with too many different things at once. So, you know, Jerry, when you say let's start do something very discreet. And I think in my liberating structures the 15% solution. What is one step that I can take that was in my control I had the resources for not to ask anybody's permission to do, but we can do and see what happens. And so it would be, it would be very interesting to sit to take a topic or a subset of the community or something else. And kind of what happens when we look at those threads in a different way, and just reflect on how those threads look in a different way. Because I suspect, I do not know that many of the challenges we have with the community dynamics have to do with how we perceive those threads, or we're dipping into our email and we're doing something else and then someone starts a new thread or another thread of the thread and all those other dynamics began to emerge but if we could actually say okay what was in that conversation. What patterns do we see and you know Jerry this is I think the crossing of modalities that you talked about which is the asynchronous is the kind of gathering the throwing the spaghetti on the wall the pulling in, you know I tend to see this. Again, I'm an LS junkie now totally I apologize but you know in terms of the eco cycle what are our standard practices, what are our standard practices are not giving us value anymore what needs to be broken and creatively destroyed. What needs to be networked out and that you know I call that the Jerry brain quadrant you know like a million ideas. What, and how do we get some of those million ideas out of the scarcity trap and into the birth. Okay, so what I really see is working that left quadrant first. Networking, getting past the scarcity trap with one idea, working that idea if you don't know what I'm talking about eco cycle. Jerry, you might want to grab that link and throw it in there too, because it to me, it allows us to recognize that all these other things are going on and all these other things are important. But let's for a moment zoom into this little piece and see what happens see what we can jiggle loose from all those ideas into some simple action. And note what comes up emotionally note what comes up intellectually but don't, don't try and process that at the same time we're trying to just see the patterns, right. And give the other stuff a little bit of space honor it recognize it, but I always feel like when I dip into OGM I feel like I'm in this is there's so much going on at the same time that I can't settle with any of it. And then I go like this, right. And I don't think that's an unusual feeling in any email. I mean I see it in the other communities I'm active in. And it's only in the very mature communities who've learned that the stew doesn't happen in the email list that happens elsewhere. And then just keep on going on and things are finding those other things are happening in other places where they can have the kind of attention, a critical thinking or even tenderness that just doesn't exist in that. Speech over. Before going to Mark and Bentley I just would like to take us into a moment of silence so we can process all that that was really lovely man say thank you made sense at every turn. Yeah, crazy. Well just going back really just I guess for a clarification in terms of what what I think Mark Antoine took from my thing. I'm not at all interested, well I'm interested in the topic but I don't think it makes sense to go back and say what, how should we have managed the pandemic or how should we manage a pandemic that might happen in the future I mean that enormous topic. I don't really have the expertise for that topic. Anyway, it, but what had struck. Well, but what had struck me, you know, when Pete circulated his. Here's what I tell my friends about cove it. And then there was the back and forth between Pete and and grace a little bit on that list that's that specific set of points that he had put out. The fact that Pete, my understanding is that Pete, this week in California with family. He's, you know, they're wearing a mask and a very advanced mask indoors all day with family members. And you know I'm intrigued by that. And does that make sense, you know I've got family members here and I'm not doing that. And so, you know that that seemed like it might be a piece that we could bite off and play with ideal loom because it'd be great to do something good with ideal loom and figure out what we could do with ideal loom in the future. And you know, Pete's Pete's 10 points plus the point that he didn't have in there about coven is causing inflammation that then is contributing to all these other diseases, and why we're having outbreaks of all these other diseases because it's knocking down your immune system. Again, I have no idea if that's true. And so that just struck me as a good starting point a very constrained starting point that might fit the group. Well, so by the starting point you mean Pete's list specifically. Pete's list Grace's response. I mean that seems to me like a great starting point for for picking that stuff apart and figuring out. Okay, are there any hidden assumptions in here that that that, you know, underlie what Pete saying or, you know, I love how Grace's first response was why the hell would you publish this or tell anybody this. And I was like wait what. But that that's sort of how she came back at Pete I was like, wow. Why would you not want to have advice like this. Um, Bentley. Yeah. I'm open to all of these I didn't want to. I also kind of said what the concept of since doing means to him and I think it's a very, it's been used to as a placeholder for many, many concepts. So it might be interesting to talk about what our area of interest is and what concept we have in there I would agree that since doing includes and for me that the understanding of since doing comes from we were, we were talking about sense making and so since doing was just kind of a way of saying okay let's do some sense making, as opposed to the concept that may evoke of taking action out in the world. And Klaus seemed to, and you can correct me Klaus. I'm focusing on the aspect of communicating to other people in a clear way, and I believe that is definitely important part of collective action. But the area that I'm kind of more focused in which I think I would like to include in our shared understanding of the title of this topic is the determining what the situation is and the best actions are, and taking into account the the full collective concerns and understanding about that so making sure that voices are heard which we've talked about and that we're taking all that into account which will also help us explain it to people that come in with a different prior understanding. So that's, and I'm actually more kind of interested in the, in the making sense of a situation as opposed to communicating in a sensible way to other people although I that's definitely part of it. And then maybe we should draw topics I would suggest. I'm okay with taking one of those COVID topics. I would, I would suggest maybe even taking one of them rather than the whole list or starting with one, and then expanding as we see fit. And also the possibility that some people are really not interested in the specific topic that some of you know, let's propose. I don't want to actually like split us but if there's another topic someone's passionate about another people and they can still raise it and other people it's not like we're saying you can't have can't do since making about this other topic, but if you're really, you know, that maybe something remain considered that some people may be willing to participate at two at a time, but just a thought. Okay, thanks Bentley. Somebody pointed out earlier, what our definitions of sense doing indeed, and yes indeed and see what is the purpose, because I was, I was once we were in the project in which idea loom then assemble was conceived. And Buckingham Schum was involved and he presented a model of collective intelligence as being on the spectrum, which later became a spiral, but from collective sensing collective sense making collective ideation collective decision and collective action. And then of course from the action you sense the results and loop over. And collective action is a very different type of tooling and a very different type of, you know, what are we trying to do and how are we doing it is since doing towards that end of that spectrum, or is it just, let's actually do the damn sense making we've been talking about for so long, which I think is also a goal. Certainly, certainly just backing up because I'm going in many directions here. My idea, like when we when we designed idea loom. The idea was people, these conversations go in all kinds of directions. Good moments come good moments go they're lost in the flow. They don't create a map of everything that's being discussed, both so it's more approachable more intelligible. Nobody wants to read the damn back and back conversation. That's entirely understandable. So helping people carve out. Okay, this is the part of conversation that interests me let's carve it out as a little micro domain and we'll have that little conversation there, and be still be aware that there's this other conversation. And at some point we may realize that they're mutually relevant and make the link and join them when appropriate, but but being able to capture what emerges that's extremely important and make it into its own more synthetic structure, the what Jack has called turning flows into stocks as absolutely important for onboarding, but also for the people in conversation and then in it enables sense makers like people who are trying to get an overview of this or that part to create a whole. Okay, here's this curated view of this part of the conversation. This is what's happening in this corner of the world. And let's give a TLDR for people who are overwhelmed by the whole mailing list as always happens. This was before like existed. This whole design was pre slack and now or matter most or whatever now people are in channels. And I think the problem it helped people not be overwhelmed but it created little silos and people don't cross as much and as much my feeling my impression from seeing slack and matter most channels and it's very hard to say, Oh, we're discussing that in that channel let's take this bit of the conversation and bring it back to the plenary townhouse what townhouse there is without inviting back people into it and oh, then you should have read the whole thing. So, so the act of synthesis is extremely important, and it's ideal is one answer to it. I don't think it's the final answer. It's one answer that is, I think quite well adapted to its original object which was mailing list. If we take a specific question like Bentley was proposing, let's use something that is more appropriate for starting with the synthetic view. Like, ideal loom is about making sense of something that's a bit overwhelming and goes in all directions and carving it out. If it's, if we're starting from scratch, it's not the best tool. You could propose sense graph for that can propose the the big graph, there's all kinds of good tools, we can do it in my reward that's fine. I'm really not trying to push ideal loom I'm trying to say what part of sense doing are we interested in, and the whole making mapping the diversity, I think is for me a key part of sense making mapping diversity. The diversity of ideas and interest in a group. I mean, we have we have the whole point is open global mind is trying to be a diverse and sometimes failing but it's trying to be but it's difficult. It's very difficult. And I made a comment in the chat earlier we all come in the conversation with past wounds. And people take offense and sometimes rightly sometimes wrongly. I remember when Grace took a fan, sorry. Yeah, Grace took offense when you asked her, Oh, do you mean this or this and it's like, that is so limited. You're asking question, but also yes it was a narrow thing but she could have expanded. So that's that's past wounds, we've all been put in boxes, and, and being able to say this belongs on the map. The reason I'm not working so hard and ideal loom so so right now is because I think it's important to let many people create different maps and then see where they mesh, and as a whole hyper knowledge work. Because idea loom has this idea that let's put everything on one map. And then the back itself can become overwhelming. I mean yeah it's a fractal it's an outline so you can collapse, but one map to rule them all is as problematic in its own way as one conversation with everything. It's so appealing. Every, yeah, yeah, yeah, everything everywhere all at once. Oh, good movie. I didn't see it. Worth watching. I'm curious. Anyway, I'm going at it again in all directions but I really want us to refocus on. Do we want to focus or do we want to see how broad the universe is and those are totally both important goals. But we have to choose. They're all value. We may have to take a poll on that. Shortly, I think that just to figure out where we are, which we're really close. Yeah, may I take another step at the information hierarchy. Can I take the screen for a moment. Go ahead. Okay. It just came out with this massive massive collection of data and who moved it into into major level compilations that you can then spin off from so let me show you one. Okay, so let's take a look at this thing here. So I'm in agriculture. This is, this is the whole world here of of emissions. So when you look at agriculture and you look at carbon, for example, there's one single dot. So it's going to come back in just a moment. So, so, no you see up here know who's responsible for what so let's just start with his carbon coming in so there's one single dot, right that represents agriculture in terms of CO2 carbon emissions, which I think is underestimated because I think it's underestimating logistics and transport. But then when you come into methane, look at what what agriculture is doing then you come into nitrous oxide and it's all about agriculture right nitrous oxide of course is fertilizers right it's synthetic nitrogen and methane, which is being used in ginormous volumes. If I'm looking at this thing, where do I spend time right where is the biggest impact that we can do in in agriculture, which contributes roughly one third of total emissions because nitrous oxide and methane is about 100 times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than is carbon. It lasts shorter but it is a very powerful greenhouse gas. So, and by the way, there are a lot of corpses regenerate America, there was a lot of think tanks who are in there, who are consolidating this information. We're interacting with the poster senate and the house agricultural committees to explain you know what are the options here. Obviously, nitrous oxide is like the elephant in the room. Right. So, so what what can we do to reduce the amount of synthetic fertilizers nitrogen that's being put onto these fields. And pollutes watersheds creates dead zones in the oceans and all of that stuff. So class now go ahead. So rather than building the argument that you're passionate about, which I agree with. Can you come back to sense doing like what what you're showing us a report from McKinsey which has a visual. That's, that's interesting. Are you saying this visual is essential and we should go there. I'm, you're taking us down into the argument which I want to avoid doing that. Because that's not this call. Yeah, so, so what I'm saying is there is data available that that describes phenomena and explains phenomena at a meta level, right. Then take the Donner and Meadows approach of a hierarchy and information that rolls through the economy. So if we are starting at the narrative level, you know, of understanding what are the core. This is one level that's the top level one level down you go into sectors of the economy. And then you go into sectors of the economy go to the next level down and you prioritize, you know, the, the, the key, the key intervention points, the key leverage points that you that you need to address. Then you get go down to the next level and you know what are the socio economic impacts how does this impact the workforce how does this impact the, the system of agriculture and food, right because it's all connected you can change agriculture, unless you change menus unless you change the supply chain aggregators processes and so on. So that's what I'm saying is the, the clarification that comes out of looking at information in a hierarchy. You know, it allows you to then go through the steps required to to break this down into greater detail. And there is a space for everyone you can get you can step every at any point into the system and say yes my spot this is what I know about this is what I can do about it. But you're within the system meaning we're moving the system into a common direction. You know, and if we can set up this this hierarchy and information, we can't define direction. That means we can't collaborate on a large scale to solve problems that are complex, but needs solving right. So so that's hopefully I was able to. Thanks. Thanks. So, I'm going to make an analogy here and class, tell me tell me if I'm missing the mark here. But when when I'm when I asked the question, what would a healthy society do to deal with an incoming pandemic. I kind of meant, how do we draw large scale. Yay, Rob's call ended early. How do we draw some large scale conclusions about how to approach the situation what to do about trust and transparency and all those kinds of things. And then to work your way down to actionable items for Oh that means that we should have this kind of data fed into a place where people can monitor it. And these kinds of actions like mask recommendations and availability and test recommendations and availability and what are the, all that kind of stuff. And then an actor can step into that mesh of ideas and go, I'm an individual in a high contagion University in a community that's not masking what should I do next. Now, by analogy, I'm a small farmer who's got some livestock and some and some and some land that's this kind of fertility in this marketplace over here. What should I do. And so, so I think the system you described earlier would be lovely from my from my eyes if it ended with or it included portals places where different participants in the system could show up and say what is the best possible advice for a player like me what what you know what what should I go do. And then here's how to fund it here's instructions for how to do it here's who sells it. Here's a subsidy whatever whatever else could make that that action happen faster. So, so health care COVID soil water regenerative agriculture. I think they're very parallel that both gigantic thorny wicked problems. But I can see my way through being part of a much larger community that builds some assets that do that. I mean, what that what the McKinsey charts weren't showing me was all the circles looked alike, and they were really nice in terms of proportion of inputs and all that. But I couldn't tell that methane was a whopping bad problem and was about to wipe out the ionosphere. I'm making that up entirely. So if you see the scale or the flow of the or the connection of the issues at all. I just saw a lot of circular diagrams. And to me, we need, we need a complimentary set of diagrams and visualizations that very few people have done yet I mean I put in the chat and here's all the fossil fuels that we're digging up and here are all the industries and all the ways that they get used. I've seen really powerful Sankey diagrams and you're like, Oh my God, okay we should go over here and make and you know make this sort of discussion. There's a huge pool among many with the same sort of sets of data that that you were just looking at just seen in a different way. How do we get somewhere there and I just described something that's much a much larger thing to bite then we can bite off. But I disagree that we're not able or don't have expertise to take a swing at some piece of it. So that's, that's why I'm talking about that. I'm not arguing that we are not capable of putting taking the swing of it. My argument is putting the information into a hierarchy, where you, you, you accept here the overarching complex, the overarching system it's like what you see here is methane and nitrous oxide are really dangerous, and agriculture is the main contributor of it right so that's where you start, and then you go down from there to build up the pyramid basically of the the economy, the ecology related to that topic. Now, and then you can get if the farmer, you know, in in Bend, Oregon can then step into this and see what applies to him without having to understand the entire pyramid. Thanks, Nancy. I can mute myself because I'm coughing a lot so so I want to take something down to this like, and my research question is, how does a large hopefully diverse sometimes huge holistic community. Understand and use its conversations for some purpose. And so with OGM I think the first question is, over a year let's just take a year. Over a year what was this community interested in. Where did those conversations go, did any of them come to conclusions did any of them suggest action did any of them cause conflict and then even cause creative abrasion which I would say is, you know the to the yen and the yang of. And just look at an x period of time and notice what was our practice what happened, because if we can't reflect on how we have been acting. It's hard to say how we might act. And to build that kind of model that you're talking about with the, you know, using data constructively if we don't understand how we can do that as human beings as the warm part of this whole thing. The rest of that is beautiful but probably won't turn into action so what if the experiment is to reflect on what OGM has talked about by sucking out these threads doing some sense making of a month a year two years of conversation, bringing that back for a conversation of how does that land for you what does that suggest to you of all the things we've talked about what's the thing that we could actually do something about tomorrow. That can contribute to these bigger pictures I this is not to malign the big pictures, it's to hold the big picture with something tangible and actionable at the same time. And then have the side spaces for the types of conversations needed that would give a place for a conversation, like if you and grace had that conversation that she started an email in a phone call or a face to face conversation I'm sure it would have ended in a very different place I'm pretty damn sure about that. I'm kind of hearing a motion an unofficial motion on the floor, and I'm going to make this up as I go along please everybody correct this to take Pete's page about here's advice I give friends about coven and grace's reply to that. And I don't know how many messages to the left or right of either of those or anything else that happened, but to start with those two messages. A drop them into ideal room with that if that seems like a fit like a fit project, and then see where else it takes us and slow it down and expand on it. I can in the meantime, I'm happy to sort of come at the question from the, what would an ideal society do about this like like because that fits right next door. So it's, you know, part of the conversation is, well but we didn't do this and this is why I said this and I recommend this because we fucked up that decision way early on it's like, cool, cool. And from that slowing down and reifying or visualizing that little snippet of conversation we could get some work products that would allow us to see what we do. And we could then see where that works next the way Nancy just recommended thoughts, objections, extensions, contractions. I would, I have a gut reaction and this may be just being contrary and you're welcome to smack me down I'm totally open to that. But by choosing that topic or poking a bear. So this is the reason I was hoping maybe to avoid the controversial topic in that sense so I agree, or kicking a hornet's nest or whatever metaphor we want to use. But if you look at that moment in a wider context of conversation, I think it may be a door that more people will walk through, then a door that some people say I want to get into this topic. And I think both are viable, but I'm curious about what happens when you open the door and say what are we, what are our conversations. And then let's look at some of those separately rather than starting with a particular conversation and this is a gut reaction and I'll leave it at that. And also, if, if Grace has left our conversational space then she's not there to represent her side of the argument and that's actually sort of neither fair nor useful. Although we could try in good faith to do so and I wouldn't object to that but it's not nearly as good as having grace actually in the conversation. So, I think Nancy's suggestion of taking a step back and looking at the using OGM as kind of a case study of sense making in the wild is interesting. It's not something I'm interested in. And so that that's just a personal thing. I'm more interested in trying out new ways of sense making and I think there's been a lot of analysis on how people have done in the wild do sense making an email list and stuff. So it's not as fruitful for what I'm looking at but I mean if that's something other people want to pursue that's, it's certainly a good thing to do. What would make you really happy. What can you describe, can you describe an exercise that would like really please you and make you want to like leap in wholeheartedly. Yeah, so I would like to take maybe like one of the bullet points from what Pete was saying rephrase it and you know if there's a future pandemic. How would we handle that and then look at, you know, conversations about that across the whole internet and try and synthesize what we do and how we'd explain it. On that, that's kind of small topic so look at actual evidence you know for people are doubting that we should do this at all, you know take masks should we were massive the next pandemic. What are the reasons why they're doing that what that they doubt that that's useful what are the reasons what do we actually do we have evidence that we should or shouldn't and then find a way to synthesize that and and put it out for other people. So that when the next kind of surge comes, we can make a statement about masks, or one of the other topics and that's, that's what I had hoped for when I heard that this conversation. I'm going to go ahead and ask her a little bit. One of the things that I think that some people feel aren't being represented in the mass discussion are the social impacts of mask wearing. In particular on kids. I think that that doesn't get represented a lot when people are like saying hey, there's a lot of scientific evidence that mask wearing reduces, you know, the replication or contagion of the virus blah blah blah blah blah It's been a really long time and system calm is a website. I don't know what they've done on covert and mask wearing, but system calm is designed very specifically to do causal relationships based on research. That is their focus entirely and Adam Bly as the founder, I think he's the next Google guy. I had one conversation with him a few months ago kind of in the in the OGM kind of realm. And he might be interested in playing, you know, some part of that if they've got a bunch of material on mask wearing and covert for example that could be really interesting. I'm, I'm afraid of getting into a research sheet blind alley. If all we're doing is trying to find, hey, here's a study here's a study this study refutes that study this study didn't have enough and you know n equals six, instead of n equals 6 million, whatever that might be I don't know. Let me kind of respond to that is that I think that you need to explore the whole space. And that will include a hundreds of studies, and it will include how people how it was communicated, and it will include people's emotional response to it. I don't think we can. I think it's an arbitrary kind of don't want to go down that rabbit hole then it's, I don't know that there's much value in doing it at all. And that's why the topic has to be smaller so maybe it's just children wearing mask entirely possible. And when I say I don't want to go down the rabbit hole I just mean I lose interest when it turns into a comparative research results kind of thing but that's not that that's not a really valid and useful thing to do. I think we need to discuss that as well because a lot of people think it's invalid because it's not communicated well about that is valid. And then kind of gloss over the fact that the reason we have a narrative to communicate is because someone did that work. And there's a whole bunch of like science communication that that's a play here that's super interesting to me. Very early in the pandemic some, some guy went and put Goop on kids hands in a classroom. Sorry. He basically cleaned the classroom, got a bunch of kids and their teacher put Goop on one or two of the kids hands and then had everybody just play for an hour, and then went around the room with a black light to see where that Goop had shown up and that Goop is made on purpose to show up under black lights. And it was fabulous because that Goop had gotten everywhere. Now, turns out COVID is more contagious through aerosols than fomites. So maybe that's not the right example. And I'm wondering why nobody made a video that says, Hey, pretend that it's like smokers and smoke because it smoke hangs in the air. You know how when you get in an elevator you can tell a smoker was just in the elevator. That's how COVID works. Like nobody did that video and I was like, Why did nobody do that video. Yeah, about toilets Nancy I lived in Hong Kong just before SARS hit and they in fact have contracted SARS I don't really will never know. But once I left and SARS really hit in Hong Kong, the G apartment in a building would all get COVID would all get SARS because of the flushing because the flush would aerosolize and there was contagion because that was a common pipe across the G flats. G flat sounds like music but I don't mean that. It's really fascinating once people start to sort of piece together how these mechanisms work. Other thoughts on this. Hey, Michael. Hi. What one thing that I'm always, I don't feel I have the right answer to that is how much does the sense making we do within the group. We try to collectively create that artifact that maps the groups thinking, which may or may not include outside thinking as mentally is proposing. I have, I think both are valuable right starting from what's inside a group or including others both are valuable, but how transposable is this in group sense making to allow others to come in and say oh yeah they've done the work we can reuse that we can found ourselves in the word they're already they've already done. I don't know. That's something that's very, very, I'm very curious about how much can we like we've talked a lot between me and Jack on on sense craft to at some point being able to import a whole branch of the project into another discussion and I have a weird mechanism to import branches between idea loom conversations, because it is something that is. It's all it's all about trust right and as I said in the other conversation yesterday. Trust is more important now than the exhaustive mapping in certain way, because it's so easy to fill the map with fabricated nonsense and defining the trust boundary. On the other hand, if the map excludes viewpoints, then people won't trust the map. So that's the other side of that so this is this is for me that's a big research question. You are digging in terrain I really love. And Jean Bellinger does a lot of really good kumu visualizations and when I look at the completed visualization my mind cannot wrap itself around them. The only way I ever really understand them is when he does a step through and says here's the start of the cycle, then we add this then there's this and then there's this. And then suddenly with some effort and some listening and some patients, I can now start to see the dynamics, and I've never gotten to the point where then we start turning tweaking the variables going hey let's raise the number of wolves by 20% and see what that does to the system. Never done that that would be really kind of cool but by that time I've run out of time in some sense. I'm afraid that's true of a lot of good deep analysis and and visualization and presentation of issues that for the people who did it, did the work. It's like really good and rich and contains tremendous amounts of information, but for outsiders it's really hard to absorb what it means and how it works. There's this magic art of science communication or whatever else that bridges that gap sometimes really well, and more often than not that that that gap just exists that gap never happens. I don't know if anybody else shares this this point of view but I see way too many explanations that look rich but are impenetrable. I can't tell if anybody agrees or disagrees Nancy. And then Mark. I just am wondering what all of a sudden I realized, we have an incredibly inclusive definition of sense making here that that I'm bouncing between. So when you go. So your example from Kuma was a perfect example, because making the map is a kind of sense making. I would say, perhaps you could call it a data driven sense making with the opinion of the map maker, doing some of the sense making so that's one kind of sense making the next one is. Okay, how do I share that with my community or group of people, and giving them that doesn't work that step through the, you know, if you move this look what happens. It reminds me of that Swedish guy who did all the stuff around, you know, manipulating maps, people would understand how you push one thing and another thing happens. What I actually think is outside the boundary of my perception of sense making which is communication of stuff that we have made sense of. So an infographic that goes out to a million people. That's a tool for their sense making but that's not sense making in the, in the sense that I know God, I'm tripping over the word sense that I'm thinking here. What I notice in conversations is some people are immediately going to the infographic I'm using that just as a placeholder, a reified artifact that makes Oh this is why I should put a mask on my kid or this is why it doesn't matter if I put a mask on my kid right. But a whole lot of the sense making in that particular conversation was who do we believe and who do we not believe it really doesn't have to do with COVID right, and has to do with a breakdown of something in our society. And when you're sense making that it's very different than sense making about mask data. So I think one of the I think one of the reasons I'm concerned about the mass conversation is, if you do what we need to sense make about that societal and contextual stuff before you get to the data or or maybe I don't know me before that just me making up shit. You're not, you're not just making up shit what you just said is crucial and like in the crux and in the middle of what's happening to us as a society. And if we can sort that out, then we can have some of the other conversations but we don't, we don't ever get to the hey look I have a lot of evidence that this thing is true and we should all just do this thing. We never get to that. And when I'm when I'm explaining OGM to a to a newbie I'm like OGM is kind of has two halves the lower half is all geeky and about arguments and, and diagramming and storytelling and all that. The upper half is all squishy and soft stuff and it's all about trust and vulnerability and, and membership and all those kinds of things. And if, if there's not some vestige of trust between the participants then you never get to the bottom half the bottom and you're relevant in material doesn't matter nobody gives a shit. Nobody will see your, your pretty chart, if they don't trust you, at least a little bit enough to have to have that conversation. So this next is super important mark on one. And I think this is why we care about the maps inclusivity the question is, somebody comes with a concern. And the question is how does it fit in your map. And being able to make that connection and the map, obviously to be intelligible has to simplify and exclude things because otherwise it's everything everywhere all at once nobody can understand it. So the one thing I've said many times with Jack is the jack speaks of wormholes between maps. I think it's very important to be able to say, This is an intelligible hole. It's not everything. Oh and your thing fits in this other map and here's how the maps are connected. The sense making, as I see it, is about making sure that everybody's in for non form thought. They recognize themselves in something a bit more structured. Okay, this is what I've been trying to say. Oh, and here's how it fits in. It interacts badly or are well with other viewpoints and but but the connection between the kind of informal discourse and okay, and we make that. How does that check out. And those are necessarily local views and how the dialogue between the local views is very difficult. I think one of the things we want to have happen is for others to show up and say, Oh yes, that object represents what I believe or how I think about this topic. It's a really simple response. The object might be a chart or diagram, it might be a sentence or a statement, it might be whatever but when this when they can say that speaks for me. That's really good because then we know where they are in the logic map or in the point of view or whatever else. I just want to tell a one minute story about misleading maps, and I've only been in one jury trial in my life it was a car and motorcycle accident in San Francisco that happened right where the Costco was. The motorcycle rider left on the jury, the two guys who showed up with motorcycle jackets with their helmets were excused by the car, the car guys lawyer. And in the jury room at the end of the first day, an hour from the end of our time we're going to have to come back. I figured out that the expert witness for the car was lying like a rug, because he had done he had shown a drawing of the intersection, and he had shown where the cars were etc etc. And there's this dent on the door which you know the poor motorcycle guy had a BMW so there's this pretty print of a horizontal cylinder on the side of the door of the car. Anyway, it turns out that at that point in the street, which I knew because I was on the motorcycle the speaker goes from being one way to being two way. And if you were riding a motorcycle to go home up south out of South downtown San Francisco you would have been in the right hand lanes not in the first or second lane which is what the car guy was claiming. And so the map was a complete miss drawing of the intersection and nobody had checked nor did the motorcycle lawyer guy guy check nobody did and I'm like, I know this intersection and everybody's like yeah. And so we found for the motorcycle guy. But but the drawing was lying. I'm not sure what I did was an entirely legit like I don't think you're supposed to find facts in the jury room but everybody agreed and when I went back and looked at the intersection I was like yep, no way. So we have that as well. I'm going to have to melt off the call, I'm afraid. And I'm happy to turn the con over to anybody who'd like to keep going on the call I'll try to listen to it later and we're recording so that'll work out just fine. I probably other people need to go as well. Michael, Michael the floor is yours. Yeah, I just wanted to jump on what Nancy was saying about about differentiating and the notion differentiating but what sense making is, and the notion that that the graphic that she uses a metaphor to refer to is the sort of conclusion that we're trying that someone is trying to convince someone of the sense they've made, as opposed to sense making apparatus that says, you know, gathering information from our overload is itself a sense making step, then organizing that information by tagging by mapping, you know, by observing the metadata is a sense making stage, and then the collective verification via, you know, upvotes and reputation and on those individual elements, like, it's almost like stop there, and then you have something more useful for drawing your own conclusions that might or might not ever feed back into the sense making apparatus. But you know better better conclusions will be reached with that kind of sense making apparatus, not like, hey now I'm going to write the editorial that that supports my position, you know better tutorials will be written, but it's not that editorial made it making and the yes I'm right thing that is the sense making. That makes sense. Thanks Michael. Any other people who'd like to stay on the call longer who I can turn the call over to or show him up this call. I think we have not reached a conclusion we're unlikely to do it now but I think we have progressed. And I think we got somewhere. But I think we need to continue this. We're not done, and we should all be there. There are being no takers for continuing the conversation. Let's schedule another call like this. Soon, alas, we are into the holidays right now. So let's figure it out gingerly through the holidays. And I just want to wish everybody a fabulous, fabulous set of holidays fight I'll see you until the new year. Yeah, Nancy thanks for joining Rob glad you made it here. Thank you.