 Welcome to the city considers. My name is Brett Lee and I'm the mayor of Davis and today I'll be talking with the former mayor of Davis, Rob Davis. Welcome Rob. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Brett. It's good to see you again. Yeah, so you've been retired from being mayor for the past three or four months. Yeah, and so looking back What are some of the things that you're most proud of achieving while on the city council and as mayor? Yeah, well, I mean it's interesting. I've been giving it some thought because periodically people, you know, ask me to speak to different groups. In a next week, I'll be speaking to a group of Afghani visitors, Fulbright sponsored about local governance issues and particularly transparency. And I think, you know, kind of you know, maybe underlying everything we do as a council, I think what I saw in the council that I, the two councils that I was involved in this was really just this attempt to really make sure we were hearing the community and that we were creating as many layers of transparency and accountability as we could. I know that's not maybe a new accomplishment. We were building on a lot of what was there commissions, but I think that we number one, when there was a new challenge, whether it was community choice energy or broadband issues, we created, you know, more opportunities through, you know, working groups committees to hear the community. So I think we continued to build on that. The other thing about transparency that I would say that I think, you know, our council did that I'm actually really proud of is in the area of financial transparency. You know, I know these are, it's a fairly arcane thing. Most people are not at our budget meetings. For example, we kind of joke about that. But, you know, the fiscal model that we put into place to really help people understand both the fiscal challenges of the city and also, you know, sort of the trajectory of where we think things are going. That to me created a sense of, okay, shared understanding. And so, you know, those issues of transparency, sitting and listening to people, creating opportunities for people to speak, making sure that we're listening to varieties of perspectives. We also did a number of community forums, as you know, on everything from cannabis to turkeys to, you know, to police oversight. Right. I mean, those are ways to garner, in a participatory way, community input. So, whereas I think that's in the DNA, perhaps, of the city, I'm glad that we continued and furthered it. And we, you know, we didn't we didn't just use the Brown Act as a means to, you know, follow the law, but we went beyond it to create more layers of transparency. So that's an area that I think, you know, what I say it's the top thing, no, but when you consider that all of local government, really all of government, really rests on this basis of trust. And we've seen nationally and even internationally and even more than that locally how trust is so important. The more we can do and the more that I think the last council did to create and look after trust, I think that's so important in this time. So I'm really thankful that we had that ethos as a group. And I know that continues, you know, now. And so you mentioned trust. I mean, what has sort of, or what did surprise you about your interactions with the community around the areas of trust? Well, I think, honestly, I think trust has to, in a sense, has to be earned each on almost every issue. It's like sometimes it felt like we were starting over on each issue. So why should we trust you on this one? Right. And all, you know, what we would try to do or what I would try to do is point back and say, well, this is the way we work. But I think I always was surprised like almost like, what have you done for me lately? Like, why should I trust you now? And so it was hard work. I mean, it was hard work. And I felt maybe I'm looking back maybe a little more defensive than I needed to be. But it was it was the sense that every time every morning when you wake up, you've not really accomplished it, you need to continue to work on it. And I thought that there might be a point at which people say, you know, this Council, they've shown us. And so we can trust them. But on any given issue, it was like we had to maybe partly because we're dealing with new people who haven't been involved before, and they needed to see it and they needed to experience it in the way the others had. But that was a surprise to me, I think a little bit. And did you notice a change from when you first got elected to when you left office? No, I mean, I think we maybe I don't know if I've talked to you a lot about it, I think we probably have talked to a lot of people about it. I mean, I, you know, without wanting to get political, I mean, what happened in the 2016 election really did change the dynamic in the community. And part of it was the November 2016 election, November 2016 election, not your election 2016, which actually went very well. But yeah, the November 2016, it was almost immediately, there was a sense of angst of uncertainty. And again, we're in a very liberal city. And so obviously people were upset, but it went beyond that. I mean, it was a sense that things were changing in ways that were unpredictable. New standards were being set. There was a tone of discourse that whether people agreed with the current president and thought that was the right way to go or not, it was, I would use the word infecting. I mean, it was infecting a lot of the discourse locally. And it made for a more sort of not rigid is not the word I want, it's a more brittle kind of discourse where you were kind of feeling like things were on edge. And it was hard not to respond in kind. I think it's really incumbent upon the city council to really set a tone of discourse. And I think we all struggled at times with the kind of communication that was happening and how to step into it and be fruitful. And I know I did and I'm sure others have, you know, we've had to apologize at times for things we've said, or left unsaid or ways that we acted. And part of it is because we want to model a good way of being, but we're also caught up in an environment where there's a lot of hostility, and there's a lot of discourse that's really not very, you know, very civil. And that was a challenge, I think. And that definitely, from the first two years that I was on Council. So, you know, you're, what is it, your fourth year, your third and fourth year. And then when you got reelected as mayor pro tem, and when I became mayor, there was a big difference. I don't I don't know if you saw it. Yeah, what I kind of how I describe it is, before November 2016, if somebody heard, like something a little crazy, I don't mean crazy in a negative way, but just just something that didn't doesn't make sense. They would ask, is it true, Rob, that you're closing all the parks? Yeah. But after it was sort of, I can't believe they're closing all the parks. What's wrong with you? Yeah. And it was, I think before that, people would hear something that didn't really make sense. And they would at least ask, is it true that the city is going to close all the parks? And, you know, obviously, we're not going to close all the parks. But, but they would just sort of, I can't believe it, you know, and just, it's an accusatory tone. Yeah. I mean, I struggled with that. And again, it's not everybody. And it's not even, I don't even think the people that are engaging in it, I don't believe them. And I'm not angry at them. It was something that was happening at a macro level that was causing people to doubt and causing people to be afraid. And I saw a lot of responses coming from those places. Yeah. What's interesting is the national narrative has sort of changed the local interactions. And it's also pretty interesting that, you know, as we learn more about kind of the past few years at the national level, how there were outside entities purposely raising the agitation level, getting people to be more at odds with each other and more distrustful and angry. And it's, it's, but that's why I, but that's, I mean, that's, I'll go back to what I said a few minutes ago. That's why the careful construction of trust, you know, these layers of accountability, being extra careful about, you know, very public decision making, keeping an open mind, you know, listening, creating those extra venues, that was my, I don't think it was just mine. I think that was our response to that is to try to react not in a negative way and sort of pull in, you know, our defenses and huddle, but to say, all right, well, what is it, what's going on? What do we need to talk about? And, and that takes time. Yeah. And I think we all experienced that we were putting more time into the work of, of, of city business and a lot of us spending time with people responding to those types of questions that, or those kind of accusations that came forward. I don't, I don't regret anything that we did. But I do, I am cognizant that the amount of time I spent in my first two years was qualitatively different than the amount of time. And it's not just attributable to being the mayor. I mean, it's just people needed more time. Yeah, I found that I spend a lot of time talking to people about the challenges and explaining that there are challenges, but we can tackle them and solve them. I think people are kind of surprised as you kind of, you talked about the fiscal model, the Leyland model and some of these other things, that the city has been thoughtfully approaching these challenges. And, and actually we do have the tools to be successful in addressing them. And I think that surprises people because they get a narrow piece of information. And then when you're able to sit down and talk with them and talk about, you know, how we're bringing three or four different sort of resources to bear on the, the problem. And you know, this idea that we actually can achieve what we're hoping to achieve. Yeah. Well, and a key to that, and that's why I think I'm really like and believe so deeply in the importance of local government is that we can do that in a face-to-face way, right? So we're, you know, when people have questions, they can approach you. They do. They approached me. We can connect them with the appropriate staff. We can take the time to respond, you know, thoughtfully. We can also, and I noticed some of my colleagues, you know, when I was on council, were really good at this, taking questions that they had heard that were not being voiced maybe in the space and bringing them into the discussion. Things they'd read in the paper that represented opinions and what it showed as a consideration. But also that's the power of local government, right? The face-to-face nature of it and that people can not just get a pat answer but can get a deeper explanation. And, and, and those explanations, I thought you were going to take it in a slightly different direction but those explanations to me are also about trade-offs, right? I found myself a lot of times saying, okay, so this is what you want. Now let me talk about what I think we can achieve and what some of the challenges are to doing that and the trade-offs that are involved. And a lot of times that's budgetary or time. Sure. You know, we make decisions based on, on budgetary constraints or we make decisions based on the amount of time staff has, you know, to engage in certain things. So it's not as if the answer is a black and white, yes, no, we will, we won't. It's yes, we are moving. Here are some of the challenges to get there. This is how long it's going to take. And, and that more reasoned discourse is possible, I think, at the local level. It's one of the things I really enjoyed about being involved in the local government here. Yeah, you mentioned trade-offs. You know, the council recently has had a lot of development proposals. Yeah. And that's a good example of, you know, the trade-offs. Absolutely. It's sort of a balancing act and at some point it becomes a little bit subjective. And, you know, we're hoping to, you know, add some apartments to help address some of the student issues and work with the university to have them house students. And at the same time, you know, Davis is a nice place. So how do we keep it as a nice place? And some of the concerns about traffic are very valid. And, you know, we have sort of these competing interests and, you know, how do we, you know, what concessions do we make to achieve some of our goals? Yeah. I mean, I like the way you said it. I mean, these are not, a lot of issues like that are not, there's not a narrow technical solution, right? There are multiple factors. And when we're, I think when we're making, when you're making, when we were making decisions about those types of things, yeah, I mean, you try to, I think we're, you know, in a representative democracy, I think one of the reasons we get elected is because people value our ability to weigh evidence and the way different factors in a decision making. But, you know, I think any of us would say, you know, after any given decision of a magnitude of, you know, building a thousand new units or something, you don't walk away from that and say, I was absolutely right to have no doubts about that decision. I mean, you, it's not wrong to acknowledge that there is, there's, there are unknowns in that. And that's the way most decisions are, right? I mean, we don't know the full impact of even a street redesign, which is a fairly narrow technical thing. You follow the rules. But do we know exactly what might happen? No. There might be some unintended consequence we can't see. We always live with that. And I think as long as we're humble at acknowledging that, then we, we can move forward. But I think the key is, you know, and I said this a lot when I was on council, and I think the last several have done, councils have done a good job. I know you all are doing the same as, what are the ends we're trying to achieve? Let's, can we stay focused on how this is helping us accomplish that? If it's not, okay, well, let's talk about that. But this is what we're trying to do here. So let's talk about what we want to do and what are the ends that we want to achieve. Yeah. I know, I always tried to steer the conversation back to, okay, well, let's make sure we're staying focused on what it is we're trying to do here. Yeah. I appreciated the way you ran the meetings because I think it encouraged more transparency, you know, asking about the reasons or, you know, where people were on a matter, not just simply sort of yes or no, but just sort of, you know, can you explain, can you elaborate? And I think that helped build a consensus. And I think mistakenly, some have thought our consensus was we were just, just so agreeable. I think upon close watching of the council meetings, you can see, you know, there is some, you know, we have different opinions and views, but we sort of reach a compromise. So there, there is movement in terms of what's originally proposed versus actually what we ultimately vote on. You know, and that's a, Brett, that's, and I'm glad you're saying that because it's a fairly nuanced thing, right? I mean, we come in, we listen, we talk and we make a decision and it's five oh, and we had a lot of five ohs. But those five ohs, I could take many examples of where I came in with a general sense, but there are details that need to be worked out within that. And that working out of the details was done after careful listening. And so on any given issue, I know I moved on things. And I know my colleagues did. And part of it was just our ability to take the time to listen to each other. I felt the role of the mayor in a case like that. And what I tried to do was to listen carefully enough and do us and do that kind of summarizing. You know, so this is what I'm hearing. So based on that, where are we going, right? You know, and I think if, if someone that's chairing a meeting can faithfully capture and the people in the meeting are saying, yeah, that, that represents, I don't feel like my voice is being excluded. Rob's not just picking out what he wants and putting it in my mouth. He's actually summarizing. Then I think that builds confidence in the group to say, you know, my voice isn't going to be excluded. This is not a railroad, you know, I'm not being forced into a position I don't want. And we did move. I mean, on many issues, just sitting there listening, I'd be like, yeah, I like that approach. You know, and so, yeah, in the end, it looks like a 50 vote to approve a project. But there are lots of details within that. And there, there are things that maybe I would at any given point say, I'm not totally happy with that. But it's not a deal breaker for me. And I appreciate the perspective that's putting that on the table. So I think that's important. Those are dynamics that are difficult to pick up unless you're really paying attention over a long period of time. But one of the things I valued in our council was that willingness, people were forthcoming about, you know, where they were on issues. I felt that every night. I think what I really appreciate, appreciate being on the council with you, and the recent councils is the ability to disagree on an item and perhaps vote against the majority. And then on the next item, being able to work, you know, create partnerships with colleagues to, you know, come up with a better proposal. You know, I don't think there was sort of any personal antagonism, right? So we understood that sometimes people would not see it our way, and they would vote a different way. But on the next item, you know, they might be part of the and that can hurt. I mean, it can hurt. It can make you upset. That's where ego kind of comes in. I didn't I didn't see a lot of big egos of people that needed to be right. I think there was a respectful, okay, you're not there. And there were, you know, there weren't a lot, but when they come, they, you know, not easy. You don't want to be alone. You don't want to be on the losing side of a two, three. And also, if you vote, you would also like to bring everybody along with you. So I mean, those are dynamics that I think again, I'm not sure it's easy to pick them up unless you've really observed a group of people work together for a long time. And and I think two years is is is is a good period to really get that sense. I mean, what I what the other thing I would say is I really appreciate I came to expect certain not not perspectives, but ways of approaching problem solving from different people. So, you know, I would always say, well, you know, Brett is going to raise questions about impacts on, you know, a neighborhood. Brett's also going to be logical. Lucas is going to be able, for example, to provide a broader context of how this fits in with the state and what some of the challenges and constraints are to moving. Rachelle, it would be too easy to say she's just a business perspective. But as a, you know, as a person, business owner, she and will would would help understand those things. And on any given issue, you had people approaching it with their sort of background and collect and wisdom that they accumulated. And and you can lean on that, right? I know I know I don't have to carry all the weight on this type of analysis that Brett's going to help with, for example. Sure. So that's the dynamic of the group. Yeah. So what about being mayor surprised you, right? So it's kind of interesting. So you're on the council for two years, you sort of look over to your side and there's the person chairing the meeting who kind of wears the mayor's hat. And then suddenly, you know, there's this transition, you know, one week you're not the mayor and the next week you are the mayor. What were there any surprises that things that you thought, oh, I didn't realize that. Well, you know, in this form of government, and we say it over and over, right? It's a weak mayor form of government. You are not setting the policy for the city. I wasn't setting the policy. You don't get an extra vote. I didn't get an extra vote. We say that. And yet I think the reality is away from the dais and perhaps even on the dais, there is some additional weight given to the word of a mayor. First of all, the mayor is asked to speak on policy issues, to various groups, much more than any council member. Yeah. And so right there is an authority and I would call it a power, and I don't mean that in a bad way, but an ability to be the one sort of articulating, this is where I am. And even if I was careful, and if you were careful to say, and this is just my perspective, and I'm just one among five, people listen to that differently. You write something in the paper, it comes from the mayor. That is sort of the unofficial role, and I think there's importance to it, especially in, I would say in two areas, in times of ferment and times of change, people are going to look to the mayor to sort of set a tone, whether we want it that way or not. Right. Come down and speak at this event. There was a hate crime, we want the mayor. All right, I wasn't expecting that. Right. You know, how do I respond to that? How do I, what is my role in that? That was really not expected. I would say the other is when we have a contentious policy issue or something that's challenging for the city to solve, like homelessness. Sure. And sort of trying to frame, or you know, student housing or issues related to the elderly, or crime, police. You know, being, being able to carefully frame an issue in a way that provides not just some comfort, everything's going to be okay. I don't mean that, but a sense, like you said earlier, that hey, we are working on this. That role of being confident in articulating a path forward, I think is something I was, I was never expecting to have, I don't know why, but I just never expected to be given that sort of responsibility. And I think it's given. I think the community sort of gives it to you because you are the mayor. And, and we all have to find the best way to respond to that given our background and who we are and what we believe in our values. But that was, that was a surprise. Yeah, it was a surprise. Every day. I mean, there was, there was, not every day, but it seemed like there was something happening all the time. I'm sure you're experiencing that as well. Being the mayor, right? Playing the role of the mayor, beyond just leading a meeting, right? And so as you sort of reflect upon your experiences, and I'm sure you have, what are some of the things that you wished you would have had a little more time to either see through to fruition or just get a little further along the path? Yeah, well, there are many. I mean, I think the fiscal challenges, I kind of wish, I mean a lot of them go beyond the city, but I kind of wish I had been able to do a little bit more around employee compensation and cost containment. And those aren't necessarily the same thing. I mean employees, you know, our, our negotiation with employees is a challenging thing. Getting their buy-in to really own the challenges themselves. I think I wish we could have done more. Obviously on social issues such as homelessness, there's always going to be more to do, right? So in one sense I feel good about the progress we did make, but really the challenges are still there. And so I don't know. There are many times I think, you know, if I had just had a little bit more energy, you know, if I had just had a little bit more time, maybe, and I don't know how you feel about it, but sometimes it's like I need to do something on this, I need to write on this or I need to have this meeting and you're tired. Yeah. You're just, you're just tired and you wake up after a couple weeks and you're like I didn't move that forward in the way I wanted. So those two, I mean, I think there's a certain sense in which, you know, the housing issue, maybe like the financial, the fiscal issue, feels so, you know, so much like that's a broader California, maybe even national issue. Right. How do we rein in in here? But I think, as you said earlier, you know, there are things we can do locally. And so I always felt like what more should have we been able to do in relation to housing, in relation to the, our relationship with the university, with the fiscal, with social challenges like homelessness. Again, I had some sense of ends that I wanted to achieve, but I'm not really sure any of them have exact endpoints. And so you're always kind of working on them and so it's always a challenge to say should I have gone further. My default would be to say on all of those things I wish, I wish we had, but, you know, we had to leave something for you guys to work on. And so, you know, I'm experiencing this, being the current mayor, the time constraints, just, you know, you talked about, you know, being tired, like, I have that often, we're all think I'm going to do something in the next, you know, thing I know I'm waking up and going like, oh my gosh, I just fell asleep and it's the next day already. Well, you have a child at home, you have a full-time job, the meetings go late, you know, you're out every weekend doing something for the city. Yeah. I mean, you have to sleep. Yeah. So, you know, so you're probably, your batteries are recharged a little bit. Yeah, quite a bit. And so, are you open to the idea of kind of helping the city, either being a commission member or unofficial sort of person, to help kind of some of the challenges? Well, I've already met with the homeless outreach coordinator and the consultant, you know, working on homeless issues and we're working on a curriculum for, you know, public, sort of to engage the public in issues related to homeless. So, my answer is the question is, I am moving back into that. Because, and then the other thing is the area where I expect to do some work is the area of youth restorative justice. In one sense, I'm going back to the kind of things I was doing before I was on council. So, I was on a commission. That's one way to serve. But I think these areas where I can get involved in training or maybe do direct service delivery, you know, through like mediation, which I'd like to get more into, are also a way of serving in the community. So, I'm real interested in continuing in those things. Okay. If there are other things, I'm happy to be involved. I'm not sure right now. I've given myself a year to take off from any formal board engagement of any kind. That would include commissions. Well, actually, this is a perfect stopping point for our discussion this evening. And, you know, I hope you'll be willing to come back and talk about some of the specifics of the things that you're working on. Yeah. And join the City Consider's program here on Davis Media Access. I wish you the best because I know you're what you're doing and I think you're doing a great job and I just hope you'll continue it and see it through for two years. Well, thank you, Rob. I appreciate that. And thank you for watching and listening.