 HPC Dodgers radio. Welcome back. I'm your host, Jared Carter. We are certainly honored and privileged to have with us this afternoon the distinguished athletic director at Dilla University and now the interim commissioner of the NAA, Dr. Kiki Baker Barnes, who is a legend in so many ways. Oh, God. No, she is. She is, regardless of what she says to talk over me. Um, but I mean, a sister who has from the coaching ranks to the administrative ranks to conference to now league has just ran the show. And Dr. Barnes, first, thank you for the time. You're actually at the NAA conference right now, right? Yes. And we're actually in day two of the convention. So we have a good time getting the chance to see some of my good friends. And now everybody's calling me commish. Yeah. I mean, so what is that like? Because I know it sounds it sounds like, oh, man, I can't believe this is happening. But you've you've basically ran Dillard so well. You've been the president, first African American sister to to run the the Gulf Coast Athletic Conference. I mean, you've had stuff like this before. Does it feel different from the other things that you've been able to do? After it doesn't, it doesn't feel different at all. When we were transitioning when I was president and we were transitioning from Dr. Howell, who was the first commissioner for the GCAC and Steve, our previous commissioner, that was a full semester where I actually ran the conference during that time. I mean, there wasn't a press release or, you know, it wasn't a point of the title. But I actually did the work during that time to kind of keep things afloat while we were trying to determine what our next steps would be and what direction we wanted to see the conference go. So I guess the difference is this time it's I have an actual title. I actually have a title in time and people think it's pretty cool. So I mean, we're just I mean, we've got a conference track me coming up next week. So I've kind of just hit the ball roll and just trying to make sure we get all things we need to take care of to have a good me. And then once we get through our conference track me, we'll get a chance to start talking about what are the next steps for the conference and what direction do we want to go? So the the Gulf Coast Conference or Athletic Conference, GCAC, let me be let me be very specific. GCAC is it's like one of the jewels of the NAA, right? Like you guys and part of it is because of Dillard and Xavier's success, obviously. But because there are a number of teams that that that compete well, particularly men's and women's basketball, do you find that that they're with this new position that there is much you have to work with your, your, you know, your PRADs and and other folks to do? Or do you just say, hey, we're running a tight ship now. Let's let's see if we can build upon that. Well, I mean, I think that's what we have to do. I think we have to come together. I think we have to talk about what it looks like for us moving forward. So one of the things that's happening at our level is with basketball. You mentioned basketball because we have done really, really well this year. Tougaloo won the comfort championship on the men's side and actually got another one seed. I'm not sure if we've ever had a team from the GCAC actually get the number one seed for for one of the four areas. So this year we had Tougaloo get the number one seed and go to the national tournament. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, they, I think they finished. They were fourth in the country at that time. So I mean, one of the top four teams out of GCAC. Well, I think we have to think about how we continue to expand on our basketball championships, because again, we've done well. And this year, I mean, Dillard had, we had a down here this year. We lost a couple of kids to injuries or some things like that. But Xavier has consistently competed well in basketball. Chaladega has consistently done well in basketball. And now, even with Everwater, they had a good year this year. They wound up upsetting us in the first round, but they've had a good year. The coach down there, I think he's going to do a really good job with helping get that program back. And they've got a new president who's who's a really supportive of athletics. And I'm pretty sure he's going to ensure that they have the resources that they need to compete. So I think where we are with NAIA, again, we've had, we usually have at least three teams that can make it to the national tournament. Now, what we have happening is we're going to be moving from one division in basketball, I mean, two divisions in basketball, to one division. And our champion, a national championship structure is going to change. So we'll have to kind of figure out what that's going to look like for us. We may have to be looking into expanding teams, but we can ensure we can get two teams in, you know, via the automatic qualification system. Those are some of the things that are coming forward that we'll have to figure out. So I don't know, it's going to be real interesting. I'm looking forward to having a conversation and working with my colleagues to figure out how we take this thing to the next level. Now, apart from running at GCAC, you're actually going to keep your your day job at Diller. Talk a little bit about looking backward just a little bit. And I know that's going to be stressful. But again, it's one of those things like you put so much work in at DU. You got men's and women's sports coming along very nicely and competitive, competitive for the conference title all the time. What was the what was your strategy outside of obviously hiring great coaches and trying to get talented students in to play and play for and have a good long careers? What were some of the other things that you did that people, the average fan may not know that it takes to build a sound program one on men's and women's side of the ball? Wow. Do you want to tell you what I'll tell you this? One of the things that I was that I feel like I wasn't prepared for initially when I took the job as athletic director here, women's basketball coach was the amount of time that I was going to need to to spend coaching coaches. So, you know, you have to at a school like at HVCU, and let me just be honest, you know, our resources are different, you know, from some of the larger schools, you know, you're not going to necessarily get the top, top, top coach because the top, top coach costs a lot of money. But you may have someone who's got a lot of potential, but they're not there yet. And maybe if they if they have the proper support, you know, then they can become a championship level coach and can win some program, you know, win some games, you know, develop a program into a national championship. But then, you know, it could springboard them to another larger opportunity. And that's one of the things that I wasn't really prepared for. I was like, yeah, we graduated with, you know, people have graduated. They have a degree, you know, I should be able to get someone here. And then they're just going to do their job. And it wasn't that way I have to provide way more support that I was initially prepared to. And I remember resisting that at first, I was like, well, you know, we all have a degree. Y'all know what y'all are doing. You should know, like, why do I need to tell you this? You know, I felt like it was improper for me as the leader at that time to be telling them things that I felt like they shouldn't know. And so it took me the first three years to get past the fact that, well, maybe they don't know. So it's your responsibility as their leader. If you if you've committed to them, then you've got to commit to their success in doing everything you can as their athletic director to put them in position to win. That's everything from making sure they have scholarship, making sure the equipment budget is comparable. I mean, you know, we're not flying places, you know, and you're not going to get two warm-ups, but we're going to make sure you get one warm-up. We're going to make sure you have, you know, and a couple of T-shirts, you know, you're going to get a travel bag, you know, to me, those were things that were standard. And so my thing is I'm going to ask for my coach to give me everything that they have. So my job is athletic directors to make sure that they have everything they need to be critical, to watch them, to share my, my thoughts from the outside and to provide any kind of information that will help them blossom and help them be successful. And so I think it's, I don't know if it's something that people really spend a lot of time talking about, but I feel like as an athletic director here I develop into a coach's coach. And so, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say, so it's funny that you say that because I don't get the impression across all sports, not just HBCU sports, that people really know what an AD does, but yet in a lot of, in a lot of conferences, black, white and otherwise, when things aren't going well on the field, on the court, they say fire the AD. So that doesn't happen with you, especially they better not happen with you because they know y'all winning, but that's right. How is it, what do you think that, that people should know about what an AD does that would reflect in the win and loss column, that would reflect in, you know, obviously beyond students graduating, coaches being there for a long time and having a good relationship. Are there things that fans should know? This is what an AD does in that this is how it turns into something on the field, on the court. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I think, you know, I've, the coaching management piece is one, but the ADs have in the support that they need to provide the support for the coaches. So ADs are responsible for trying to do fundraising. They're also responsible for meeting all the regulations of whatever association you're a member of. We're a member of the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics, the NAA, you have some schools who are a member of the NCAA. Well, those athletic directors are responsible for ensuring that those programs are compliant with whatever the association rules are. There is a requirement that the, that the athletic director, I mean, now we're doing Title IX training. We are the priority person for it. So if an athlete is involved in a situation with Title IX, a sexual assault, we're the person responsible for reporting and getting that information to whatever the appropriate party is on campus to ensure that we're meeting the federal guidelines for these kinds of things. Good Lord. I mean, there's a myriad of things that athletic director is doing to try to ensure that programs are compliant as well as competitive. And so sometimes they think we just kind of show up at games and, you know, sit up there and, you know, we look important, but depending on the school you had, I mean, you could be doing game day management work. I mean, I sit up and break down at my games. Now I have a group of students and I, I have some people who help me, but hey, I mean, I can do everything from put chairs down and pick up, sweep a floor to sit in the president's office on a, on an important call, you know, that's regarding the program. So there's a lot that goes into being an athletic director when there are complaints about coaches. The athletic director is the person that's hearing those complaints. Ensuring that the student athlete has a good experience. What does that look like? They're the facilities that they practice in, the times that they practice. You know, what kind of support they're getting academically, whether they're getting tutors, whether the support systems are in place to ensure that the students have academic success. That's a part of the athletic director's responsibility. So, yeah, it can be a lot. And this is all without being at a football school. I mean, it's, it's a big deal without football. So, I mean, did you imagine, you know, obviously your careers in coaching, you've been the Under Armour AD of the year. You've been a two time AD of the year in the Gulf Coast. I mean, you've been lauded by the NAIA a number of times, sat on dozens of committees. Do you ever feel like there's still a lot to do, even though I've proven a lot and that it's OK for you? Like, there's there's not there's not yet another challenge to go exceed. Is it just turning into turning Dillard into the perfect version of itself, athletically? Well, I think we always have to evolve. Like, I don't think you ever reached that point. Does that make any sense? Right. At the end of the year, we can win everything. And I'm still like, we could have been better, though, because what I've learned is once you ascend it to some level of success, number one, you want to be able to replicate that success. But number two, everybody want to have a success, you got. So, you know what, we force people to step up their game. But I make jokes about it all the time. I was like, I'm going to make somebody work. I was like, we don't continue to win until you beat us. So step up, get out and go do some work. Like, and that's that's the coaching athlete coming out in. But what I'm not going to do, what I'm not going to do is take a break and tell my coach, oh, what we've worked the last three years. So, you know what, we don't have to do anything else now because we have arrived. You never arrived. You have to evolve. So it's always at the end of the year. What could we have done better? What what goals did we actually need? And then what what will take us to another level? What hasn't been done that we can set the pace for? And so for me, I mean, I have a good time because there's always a challenge. What are your opinions on, I don't want to say emergence because women's sports has always been a big deal. I'm a huge women's basketball, college basketball fan and WNBA fan. What is your opinion of the growing popularity? Of sisters in sports and particularly at HBCUs, where you see we're starting to win a few games in the postseason, even in the NCAA in Division One. You see us competing in the CIT and the NIT. You know, we've always been competitive in the NAA. But what is it? What is it like for you as a coach and an athlete to see? OK, we're starting to these these programs, particularly among the women, are starting to do things and compete for national titles. We've seen Shaw in the last 10 years when a national division to title, you know, we've seen him go to Virginia Union, go to the Final Four. What is it? The women are moving ahead faster than the men in terms of national competition for titles. How what what do you think has created that that opportunity for the sisters and how can we expand upon that? You know, that's that's an interesting question. I when you when you look at women's basketball and I think versus men's basketball, I don't think women are as caught up in NCAA Division One, Division Two and level. So you're talking about Shaw Shaw and Virginia, you know, the NCAA, the two schools, you know, you and a dealer like we have kids, we've recruited students who are Division One talent, but they weren't concerned about Division One. They were concerned about student experience. They wanted to enjoy college. They wanted to play basketball, compete for national championships and have a good time. They wanted to play as a fraternity or a sorority or I mean, a sorority for the girls. I mean, so it was like I want I want to feel like family, like I want to feel like more than just a student. And so I think that what you see from for women is a more willingness, a willingness to pursue a program that's successful, whether regardless of division and where they can also have a life. So I think you see that on the women's side, on the men's side, it's a lot different. Guys are like, I'm D one, I'm D one, I'm D one. I'm not talking to a dealer or a baby. I'm not talking to you because I'm D one. I'm going to the pro. So they, I think that on the men's side, young men are more limited and they're not as open to small college basketball. Is that, you know, that's who we are in a small college basketball or if he double a division to small college basketball, you know, it's not D one, even though all D one isn't created equal because LSU and university in New Orleans are two different, are two different schools, but they're both D one, you know, so I just think that on the men's side, they just, you know, they're still like, I'm trying to go pro and I want to be D one. So they would skip over a top 25 program like a Diller University or a Talladega or a Tougaloo because they looking for that D one offer. And so some of those programs, you know, it makes it harder for the guys, I think to advance, um, I don't know. But we've been fortunate. I will say that I have an outstanding men's basketball coach who is a very good recruiter. He's been in the game for, I think 30 years. Jesus, he's been in the game for a long time. And so he has kids. I love coach, coach got kids, but he, he's coaching the kids of kids. He coached when he was in his young year. That's, that's where he is in life. He's had two kids come through and their dad played for him. So I don't know. That's my thought. I just, you know, I think you can, I think, you know, with women, you can just, we're just a little bit more open to all of the other opportunities and not just I got to wait, you know, instead of D one offer, then I don't have one. And now I'm just going to settle and be that sour about it. Yeah. I don't know. What does now that you're, you're running the show for the, for the conference and you've been running the show with Diller and you've seen NCAA, NAIA, you've coached. I mean, you've played, you've seen all elements of, of what college athletics looks like. What does the, what is the perfect version of what we could do? And I'm not necessarily talking about, you know, GCAC or, you know, MEAC or SWAC or CI double A or anything like that. When, if we are, if we are doing all that we could do, what do we look like in terms of fan engagement, in terms of talent acquisition, in terms of revenue? And what does it look like? And what's the one big thing that you think that our schools could do to move towards that perfect version of what we could be? Oh boy. Jesus, that's a loaded question. I mean, you've seen it all. It ain't my fault. It ain't my fault you're good. Look, let me ask you this. Are we talking specifically HBCU? HBCU. Right now. Yes, ma'am. HBCU. Oh boy. Because as you, as you said, we have resource challenges. So obviously the answer is we get more money. And if we get more money, we enhance the game day experience. We have more opportunity to recruit from a wider pool. You know, we can hire better coaches and, you know, we can have more media opportunities. That, that's what happens with more money. But until we get to the, to the day where we have quote unquote more money, is there something that we could do as a, as, you know, either a dealer community or a GCAC community or an HBCU community that pushes us one step closer to where we want to be until we get those resources? What's one thing that you look at from all your experience that you say this, this could change things if we do it this way. Well, you know what? I mean, my, my one thing is we got to stop, we got to stop comparing ourselves to the other institutions. And we have to define what is good for us. And then we have to stand in that. So one of the conversations, this is one of the conversations we had before I even became commissioner with the GCAC about our basketball tournament. I wanted to host the tournament at Dillard, but they're like, no, we want to be at Xavier's campus because they have the most beautiful facility. If you ask me in the country, they've got like a 4,000 seater, I mean, arena style seating. I mean, it's fancy. And there's a relatively new though, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, they, this, this was built right after Katrina. So I mean, but it's a beautiful facility. And I mean, our facility is, it's more, it's a 1,200 seater. I mean, we can see 1,200 people. But what I told them, what I've said is we have to use the mentality that they use in Miami. So I went to Miami on a girl's trip, maybe about five years ago. So we're, there's this long line. We're headed out, we're going to a club and I'm talking about the line is around the corner. So we're like, oh, man, this, this, this place is going to jump it. So everybody's in line. They're standing outside there waiting. We finally get into the club. Ain't nobody in the club. So what do they walk away from the door when they got up there? But now, by the time the night was over when it was jumping, but what they did was they created the hot ticket. They created the hot ticket. They, they let them, they, they had a long line for a reason because they said if they see people trying to get in, they know they'll never want to be able to charge top dollars because it looks like I might not be able to get in. So I want to get in because I might not be able to get in. And so my thing was when I shared that with them, I said, we got to create the hot ticket. We need to go to a smaller venue. We need to pack it out and tell people they can't get in. I said, at that point, now we can raise the price because people will pay now because they know they can't get in. You create scarcity. Yeah. So instead of trying to go to Xavier, where, and this is things I've said to them. So it's, you know, it's not anything I said they haven't heard from me. They're going to a 4,000 seater. Let's get this thing to a 1,200 seater. Let's pack it out. We got live stream. They don't see it's lit. That's what the kids say is going to be turned. We got the DJ. I mean, it's like, oh man, you should have been there. Everybody's going to be talking about what they missed out. Now when we come back for the next year for the tournament, everybody's buying tickets early because now we created a product that they want to pay for. And everybody's going to get in. But what we try to do is, oh, Ellis, you've got a 20,000 seater. Oh, we will go to a bigger facility to try to compete with them. We've never got to compete with them. Why are we even comparing ourselves to them? We do two different things. It's why, it's why I will tell you the one thing that I like the most. Celebration both. I'm so glad we have our own bowls. Yeah. I'm so happy about that because when you look at the classics, like we've done it in football, like by you classic, like a tennis records for swag schools, for football, or higher than any of the other people in the FCS. That's right. Because we have a model that works. Yeah. For our people. And we stick with, yes. So why are we always comparing ourselves to, and like it's just, you're going to lose every time. Like I was like, that makes no sense. And so what I said to my colleagues was we are small college basketball embrace that and make people feel it. I was like, you have to, you have to come to the blue of a classic. Our game versus Dylan versus baby. It is the Bayou classical basketball. That's right. That's right. We sell out of tickets every year and we sell every ticket. But that we create, but that's a rivalry though. It's like, so you, you can do that with Xavier because that's literally a crosstown rivalry. Do you think that that will work for the conference tournament? Yes, it absolutely would if we create the atmosphere and if we can, if we can, we have to, we have to do the similar, the kind of the same thing around the celebration boat, like the same kind of deal, like you got to build it up. Like you got to be there. You got to support your team. We climb in the champion like, and people have to be willing to pay for that ticket. And so I think we can do it, but we have to stop trying to be other people. We have to be true to who we are. Why do we need to be in a bigger venue? We don't need to be in a bigger venue. We need to pack it out. We need to have the DJ and we need people want to get in, bring the entertainment in and we need to, and we need to own that.