 I'm gonna call the shabuigan common council committee of the whole meeting to order for Wednesday March 14th, would you call the roll, please all the person kittleson? Belt is excuse belt is excused correct. Yes, Warren here Carlson Decker here common here Hammond here Heidemann here Kat here Kittleson is here Maddachek excuse bracelet here Samson excuse van Akron here and van der wheel excused Percy We have ten present we have a quorum. Okay. We have a quorum. Let's all rise for the pledge, please Just Mentioned the older persons. We are on television tonight, so we'll need our microphones Item number four on the agenda is approval of the minutes from the February 1st 2012 meeting Second we have a motion and a second to approve the meetings from February 1st any discussion all in favor I posed chair votes. I next we have the public forum on agenda items Limit of three minutes per person. Does anybody wish to be heard on any agenda items tonight? Does anybody wish to be heard and For a third time. Does anybody wish to be heard? Chairman's comments Have none item number item number seven on the agenda Is Corporal Roy class of the Cheboygan County Sheriff's Department will be present and will discuss the Cheboygan County jail inmates community service program Public Works Director David Bebo will also participate I would entertain a motion to open up the Florida corporal class Second we have a motion in a second to open up the Florida corporal class Corporal would you like to step up, please? I was gonna have Dave start out to explain What they talked about Last night, okay, and then answer any questions you may have after that. All right, David Go ahead the Department of Public Works we been Investigating this program and looking at it some time Mr. Klaus from the Sheriff's Department gave us a very nice packet of information It was very helpful to go through this in detail Working with staff in the in the department. I think what we'd like to do and what we're proposing to the council is is to go into this we want to Try it out this summer what we what we've identified is Using this type of Worker in what we have at the cemetery for our summer seasonal temporary program and What's nice about that is the cemetery is a fixed site and It's a large site 40 acres it has plenty of work During during this season the peak season when we would hire the seasonal people we'd have anywhere from three to five Additional personnel we have two full-time personnel at the cemetery year-round. They dig the graves. They set the headstones They do the foundations. They operate the equipment, but during the peak periods. We bring in anywhere from three to five seasonal What that equates to is In last year in the o11 budget for seasonal work. We spent $33,000 on temporary and seasonal labor so We think this is an opportunity here to use the work release volunteer program to save as Well as what it is as I mentioned It's a fixed site one of the issues with the program is we need to provide transportation for for these workers and Yes, we may have needs throughout the community But it does get a little bit some problems logistically for our staff for full-time staff Which has to provide supervision to this personnel to transport them from site to site to site So what's nice? That's one advantage of the cemetery. It's a fixed site There's plenty of work Plenty of grass to be cut every day plenty of trimming to be done around the the gravestones and We really think this could be a great pilot this summer to see If this works and if it does then it might lead itself to other programs or special projects throughout the city That we could expand upon it. So that's going to be kind of our our suggestion this evening I'll be happy to answer any questions Alderman Hammond. Thank you Thanks, mr. Bebo. Just a quick question on the Quality side of it who's monitoring that who's in charge of them during the day I'm assuming it would be our people that are at the cemetery if there's issues of quality who addresses that and obviously It's a cemetery if we want to make sure it's done respectful and you know and things like that So who's gonna monitor that correct my understanding we work with the sheriff's department They get they screen the initial volunteers Explain the type of work that is being offered Those volunteers then we pick them up. We get them set up. We work with them We train them give them there what their expectations are and if there's problems We immediately contact the sheriff's department and that person if there's a situation We'll probably be pulled from the program and a different volunteer would be brought in Alderman Carlson, thank you. I'm an havin Thank You chairman of the can you discuss the possible the types of inmates that we may have out on this work release program I if you don't mind I'd like to defer that to mr. Klaus You could explain that further Most of the people that are Out have huber that's decided by the courts The people we are using Two years ago three years ago would be the people working at Kohler French Numerous factories businesses around the community when the economy went down I have had all these guys with nothing to do and I thought it was an opportunity For them to do something for us to give back to the community So these are the same people that would be going out to work daily When we screen them to put it bluntly is I'm not going to take someone who Is a possible drug dealer? someone there for sexual assault And put them in an area where we don't want them So they are screened and in the last three years that we've been doing this We've did approximately 20 to 25,000 hours Anywhere from bookworm gardens Habitat for Humanity Several Salvation Army Bethesda We have never had a problem yet. Thank you. Thank you all of them Carlson all of them then after you next Thank You Chairman just to touch on that you've done some of this volunteer work in the past without any problems you indicated Can you you indicated it's going to be a volunteer program? So in no way they're going to be city employees of any kind is that am I getting that correct? It's going to be a volunteer basis. They're not going to be city employees of any way We'll have city employees that are full-time that are working right, but when we talk about the summer seasonal at least for this program It's a volunteer right my understanding. It's unpaid through through the shares, I guess my only concern is the city's liabilities if something would occur whether or not this person would be again from what my Understanding it technically an inmate with the Sheboygan County My concern would be the liability side of that and maybe Steve can touch on that as far as if something would occur Does the city incur any liability for them voluntarily doing work it on our behalf? I guess that'd be my concern I'll remember an anchor and I will have a turn him to clean up in a few minutes to address that in fact We addressed that last night at public works and Steve's got a document that he's going to go over with this It's good question Any other questions for mr. Bevel? Corporal class if you could just go over a little bit just a little bit of the history of the program and again some of the venues where the where they've been working and Some of the non-profits or churches where they've actually been working the last couple years Like I said it started in 2009 and since that time we did and this is an approximate guess 20 to 25,000 hours In that time, we've had no injuries. We've had no major infractions The thing I want to bring up is these guys have something to gain by doing community service We do have the community service people that are court ordered But also what we provide them for doing community service by state statutes were obligated to reimburse them and Most people's cases they earn time off their sentence So approximately every 24 hours that they put in doing community service They get 24 hours off their sentence and the days that they do community service. They are not charged their fees While they're incarcerated So they do have a lot to lose we have give you example Last year we had a gentleman that I believe he needed to be out for his brother's wedding He volunteered to do community service and he worked every hour we could give him So he could be out before his brother's wedding if they violate I Can take if they've earned 30 days credit. I can take all 30 days away from So they do have something to lose by not following the rules As far as where? Sheboyin County we have two guys working at Rocky Knoll With their maintenance department for probably the last six months Every morning they come to the detention center pick them up take them out to Elkhart bring them back every afternoon Fulton Park Church Bethesda the Gateway community project the Little Red Schoolhouse Just a couple weekends ago, I believe it was at Praise Fellowship We had six inmates there for the whole weekend helping them set up some bank what they had Bookworm Gardens And there's numerous other sites I Understand why you're questioning this and why I'm here to answer this but These the gentlemen we are using are generally the people that are working and I can't stress that enough Habitat for Humanity the Restore they weren't supposed to open up till probably This month next month we went in and did approximately 3,000 hours and they opened up what a month month and a half ago What was funny is the first day that they started they had their whole board there because they were so worried After approximately two hours they looked at each other and said what are we doing here and They all left except for one It works. I can't promise you that there's not going to be problems but if you had a volunteer Program or a community service program Where you were just taking people off the street? There's no guarantee you're gonna that's gonna work The advantage you have to using our people As you can call me you can call officer Rick Meyer there's four of us in our unit and We will be there in a matter of 10 15 minutes if we can't be there We will call the Sheriff's Department and a patrol officer will be there No one else can say that with volunteers There's a problem you call us. We're gonna take care of it. Any other questions Attorney McLean would you like to come up and Share share with us what you shared with us at the Public Works Committee meeting last night. Thank you Corporal Thank You David. Thank You mr. Chairman. I've got two handouts One is a memo that a draft resolution to Basically authorize entered into this program The Committee also yesterday asked that I prepare a draft of as far as the the memo goes that that Dealt with I received a copy of the Sheriff's Department's Materials that they had handed out and I reviewed those and provided my comments to the committee excuse me and They're just a few things I pointed out first Pursuant to the statutes the sheriff Doesn't assign prisoners under this program to projects that would result in the displacement of employed persons from their jobs so It's not a program where we can Terminate city employees and just have these volunteers provide the service That's not the contemplation here we're talking about using volunteers in areas where We've used for temporary seasonable people so it would not be displacing people from the jobs second Before prisoners assigned to work under the program begin work The employer or other person in charge of a place of employment That's the site of the proposed work project shall post at the location where notices employees are usually posted a written notice Informing employees the prisoners have been assigned to work at the place of employment. So that's Just sort of a procedural step that We as the city being the place of employment would need to post and notice On the employee bulletin board at the public works department Indicating that Prisoners have been assigned under this program to work at the cemetery or wherever Third in the packet of materials there is a waiver of liability For that the participants the inmates all sign But I noted that that waiver of liability just goes to Shboyton County in the Shboyton County Sheriff's Department holds them harmless. So it's my recommendation that That those inmates that are Gonna volunteer providing services to the city sign a similar waiver of liability that Releases the city and its department and its officers employees from liability Basically it mirrors the language that the Sheriff's Department has in their waiver and have attached a copy of that to the draft resolution Basically the inmate would release and hold the city in its Department its officers employees from any liability claims and demands of whatever kind of nature Which arrives or may hear after arrives from the inmates activities as a volunteer and also Releases or discharges the city from any liability with respect to bodily injury personal injury injury death and so forth Resulting As a result of their participation in the program The final Thing I noted in my memo on the back there the statute that this work camp program is Authorized under has an immunity provision that protects the city Whoever the The end user of the services are from civil liability Related to Death or injury of the prisoner related to carrying out any responsibilities under the work camp program and that includes specifies to Transportation of the inmates to and from the site. So since we're responsible for providing the transportation if there's a car wreck or something on the way to or from The city is immune from my ability for those injuries The only exception to that is in subsection C there in the back that The immunity does not apply to any person whose act or omission involves reckless wanton or intentional misconduct That's pretty high threshold of misconduct So From my ability standpoint, I think The city is pretty well protected And I think that was the basic question was liability so That's what I covered last night With the Public Works Committee the second document I drafted if I can just go on to that please I Just put this together today Resolution approving the city's participation in the summer in Sheboygan County work camp program And basically Pursuant to statutory authority the county board has established the county work camp program for purposes of providing Reformation and appointment of persons sentenced to the county jail and Whereas under the program administered by the Sheriff's Department locations and properties of the city of Sheboygan are eligible as worksites and Whereas inmates assigned to the program provide services on a volunteer basis without monetary compensation And whereas public works directors press an interest in a willingness to participate in the program Be it resolved public works director at his discretion So by authorized to work with the county Sheriff's Department for participation by the public works department in the work camp program There's a condition to any inmate providing services to the city Under the program the inmate be required to sign a work camp volunteer waiver of liability In informed substantially similar to the attached and Included that the public works director would periodically update the Public Works Committee on the department's experience with the program so I Just submit that as a draft and Councils free to tweak that as they wish, but I'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have any questions for attorney McLean Corporal class with this draft that Attorney McLean did The for the waiver of liability with that would you see that as a problem of having the inmate sign that in addition to the One you have for the program Okay All right, I should also let also to let the committee of the whole know that after Having corporal class at a meeting a month ago, and then having an update yesterday from an attorney McLean and Director Bevel that the Public Works Committee last night You know unanimously supported going ahead with this program is outlined by Attorney McLean as far as the legal aspect of it and the input from director Bevel Thank you, attorney McLean. I guess I would entertain a motion To from the council to well you can make the motion. I'm not going to tell you what the motion should be but I'll entertain a motion Allerman Hammond. Thank you, mr. Chair. I would make that motion to approve The resolution as written by attorney McLean given the caveats Assigned we have a motion in a second To approve the resolution Is there any further discussion? No further discussion. Would you call the roll, please on this one? Belt Excuse morning. Hi Carlson. Hi, Decker. Hi. Howman. Hi Hammond. Hi Heidemann. Hi Cass. Hi Kittleson says I Raceler Fanny Akron. Hi, I Think I got all eyes motion carries Attorney McLean if I could just ask you then could you get a copy of this to Sue Richards and time for money nights council meeting? Thank you very much moving on to Item number eight on the agenda And that is council document number five dash six from the February 6th 2012 Council meeting our own number 357 dash 11 dash 12 by the city clerk Submitting a communication from Richard Hartman stating that the outcome of the upcoming mayor Marial recall election no matter the winner must not prevent the quasi-digital hearing from happening For it is for it is the only way to put this matter behind us. I'll entertain a motion Move the file back in we have a motion and a second to file any discussion I think we can do all eyes in this one all in favor. Hi pose chair votes. I Item number nine nine on the agenda is council document number five dash five from the February 6th 2012 council meeting Our own number 356 dash 11 dash 12 by the city clerk Submitting a communication from the Sheboygan County Taxpayers Alliance Questioning why the all our persons haven't introduced a referendum question about the full-time or part-time mayor I'll entertain a motion for discussion. Oh, let's see. I believe Alderman Carlson Pardon me. That's an old one. That's an old one Alderman raceler. I move to file it second We have a motion and a second to file under discussion. I see Former mayor Susha is here and he indicated to me that he wanted to make a few remarks on this So I would entertain a motion to open the floor to former mayor Richard Susha Simone again. We have a motion and a second for the record Richard would you give us our year address, please Richard Susha 15 North Point Drive Sheboygan. Thank you. I Won't belabor the point tonight ladies and gentlemen, but Taxpayer Alliance is pleased to see the referendum on a full-time or Part-time mayor for the question is binding or advisory. That is really the question Apparently raised by the press It is my understanding when there's a change in the form of government It must be a charter ordinance change which requires a binding referendum The city attorney could answer that later if you'd like and We also feel that the duties have been reduced enough to warrant a part-time mayor We don't need two full-time positions The county seems to operate very well with their system and don't forget the Citizens will still vote for their mayor only it will be part-time. I Won't belabor the points of what the mayor will or will not do That you can discuss later if you'd like you have received my email and Correspondence from the other SCTA members and I'm saying you don't need a full-time cheerleader and visionary as the press writes A large salaries don't equate to better quality people a Dedication to the job is what matters Thank you Thank you, mr. Susha We have a motion on the floor to file this document Is there any further discussion? I? Think we can do allies in this one all in favor aye opposed chair votes. Aye Next we have agenda item number 10, which is council document number four dash four From the council meeting of March 5th 2012 Resolution number 154 dash 11 dash 12 by Alderpersons Carlson Boran and Haman a resolution calling for a binding referendum on whether or not the city of Sheboygan shall continue having a full-time mayor if voters so choose the alternative shall be reducing the role of mayor to a part-time position I Would entertain a motion to get discussion going on this issue Alderman Carlson Did you want to make a motion? Yes, I? Move to approve with a favorable recommendation of the council second We have a motion in a second to a prove Under discussion and if I would I would ask I would ask that our comments on this be I Guess not on what the merits of a full or part-time mayor are but whether we want to put this out to a referendum So I mean I'll offer a I'll give a little latitude on that But I wish the discussion would be on whether we're going to go ahead with the referendum or not Alderman Raisler. Thank you. Mr. Chairman Obviously my past position on this has been to continue with a full-time mayor So obviously I'm not in favor of the referendum and I guess I just want to add one comment for those of you that are I'm looking at introducing an ordinance and if we're if we do decide to move forward to this To also include on the referendum the downsize the size of the common council as well So if we're going to change the face of the government, we might as well do it all one time and and put it to the voters At that point in time. So the second thing I guess Because it does determine whether it's a full-time or part-time has a lot to do with the referendum I would like to hear from our Current mayor just on the last 10 days of how his job duties have gone and how he sees this Coming forward as far as being a part-time position of a couple hours a week or whether he looks at this being as something It's going to be a challenge to Work 40 plus hours a week. So I guess that's something I'd like to open the floor if possible to get his input on it as well Thank you, Alderman Raisler Alderman Carlson Thank You chairman. I Think at this point I I don't I don't see why we wouldn't want to send it to the people I mean they ultimately have to pay their their tax bills We we are we have changed the face of our government. We did install a chief administrative officer We didn't really give them a choice in that in that matter But this is our last time at least for the next five years to allow them to have the choice And how they want their city government to run and I would support that resolution to put the size of the council on there If we're going to do it all we might as well do it all at once What we just can't do it right now and then in terms of What them what the mayor is doing now or what the mayor is doing in three years from now? That's something that we can we're still working on this referendum isn't going to come out until November That's when we're trying to place it on the ballot But once again, I don't see what the issue is is letting of letting the taxpayers decide what they want their city government to Look like us as a body Yes, some people make the argument that we should make that decision because we're elected But this is bigger than that that this is bigger than just the eight people here So to not let it to go to the people. I think is a mistake Thank you Alderman Carlson Alderman Hammond dear next Thank you, mr. Chair. I think the part of this and it's for those that were involved with the document there It's well-known is the term part time We're considered part time But I can guarantee you I probably spend as many hours Doing city business as somebody that was doing this full-time that that term part time bothers me They keep throwing that out like you know, somebody's going to work at a mini-mart for two hours a week You know as the position of the mayor I don't care if that person works 25 hours a week or a hundred hours a week The taxpayers are going to be the one that ultimately boots them This is really a financial argument. How much does the mayor get paid? Given the job description that's out there now You know, is it worth 25,000 is it worth 50,000? Is it worth the current salary? That's really in my mind with this argument is framed about not full-time versus part-time because again as an elected official We can't say Alderman Decker. You can only work four hours a week And you can put as much time and effort into this as you want That and that's the struggle I'm having and I know it's semantics But it's that one term if we as a body say Mayor position you're making 30 grand a year That's within our purview And I think we would be able to get quality people to do it at 30 grand a year as long as we took away the requirement That they couldn't have a second job So I think somewhat we're framing the argument wrong by saying part-time versus full-time It should be do we change the ordinance to say you can have a second job and we're gonna pay you 25 grand to do this So I guess you know take that into consideration as we as we go forward You know, I certainly not a big fan of the term full-time versus part-time But certainly would be a fan of looking at the salary and saying is this commiserate or commensurate with the level of responsibilities and duties that are now required by the mayor And I'm not gonna speak for Mayor Van Akron. I don't know what he sure he's got an opinion on this But I'm sure he would also agree that The duties now aren't what they used to be and certainly wouldn't warrant, you know, $70,000 plus benefits. So thank you Thank you, Alderman Hammond Alderman Van Akron. You're next. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I Guess I'm gonna go back a few months to when we talked about the city administrator position This idea was floated it came out. We discussed it. I believe it in this committee and we voted it down One of the reasons I'm not supporting this document tonight is part of lead to do with the city administrator decision We made a couple months ago. I agreed with the city administrator position then and I and I do now But I believe it in that going forward because of the fact that the city administrator and a mayor are two separate Entities one of which who implements the policy that this body decides or as the council decides and the other who is a very political Person who is out there again with a political agenda who steers his political vision The the people have an opportunity to decide on that person based on his political stance or his or her political stance I think by going to a part-time mayor a Lot of that political stance and a lot of that political steering is gonna fall to the city administrator who the the people don't get to Decide on I feel if you're gonna go that direction I think it should almost go to just that one person who's then elected and he puts his political stance out there So that the people can decide whether I agree with that person's political stance their political agenda or I don't I think under the current system with it with the city administrator who again? implements the policies that we set and a mayor who again sets his political agenda based on his beliefs based on what he or He or she thinks is the right direction for the city to go in that person is elected based on that stance based on their stance on The issues I think that's the right way to go I think we have an opportunity to have the best of both of that you have the opportunity to have a mayor with a Reduced salary and a city administrator who then implements the policies that we decide I don't think we've given that a chance we we implemented that a few months ago And at this point we are now going backwards and I guess that's a little bit disappointing to me because I don't think we've given That a chance I don't think anyone in here would disagree that the last several months has been a circus and Unfortunately, we haven't had an opportunity to see how well that is or isn't going to work So I hope to see that going forward with them with the mayor's office at a reduced salary with the chief administrator Officer who's a non-political person who doesn't steer political agendas who doesn't get involved in the politics side of things But that implements the policies that we as a group decide on I think that's the right direction to go So I'm not going to support this because of my beliefs on the city administrator side of it because that's really honestly a Lot of what sold me on a city administrator is again We'd have that separation of this person not being a political person not steering political agendas and we'd have a mayor Who could do that on their own? So I'm not going to support that for those reasons Thank You Alderman Ben Akron Alderperson kath Thank You Chairman my two will not be supporting this resolution, and I'd like to address Alderman Carlson's concerns My constituents they already had a say as far as when I ran for this position three years ago and last year I was for a full-time mayor and also a Full-time city administrator, so I'm I will not be supporting this Thank You Thank You Alderman kath I'll just make a couple comments, and that is When this whole it when this whole idea of a city administrator came up. I wasn't I was not sold on the idea When I finally did support it. I Took the recommendation of the study committee that studied this for a couple of years that if we were going to go to a City administrator they recommended then going to a part-time mayor So that was the reason why I supported in the first place I didn't have a problem with the way it was before with having a you know a strong mayor and the council had no problem with that But that study committee recommended to this body that we go to a city administrator with a part-time mayor If this thing goes to a referendum I personally can live with it with whatever they decide because it's their decision as Alderman Carlson said The taxpayers are going to pay the salary whether it's twenty five thousand or fifty thousand dollars And I'm comfortable very happy with you know The citizens of Sheboygan that they can make an intelligent an intelligent choice as to what they want They're very smart people and they usually get things right when they vote, so I'm going to support it going to a referendum and I and I really I for my part I don't care how it ends up whatever they decide. I'll live with and we'll move on Alderman Venak Alderman Seeing it sitting in the Alderman chair there Mayor Van Ackman. Would you care to address address the Common Council on this? Just because Corey asked let me get the right microphone. There we go just because Corey asked on my feelings and the things I've done this week My personal feelings that you know, I do believe in a full-time mayor and a not because of it's my position It's going to be 2013 and whoever runs in 2013 wins that election I agree with the idea of Keeping the political side Different from the city administrator side and and keeping that different what I've done this week is I met with two or three different Businesses that are in town here and look at their concerns I've met with the Chamber of Commerce and I think that's what the mayor should be doing is that kind of work with development and Those type of things and settling policy working with the council You should set the policy that we then give to the city administrator to implement. So I agree with those things I agreed with those things prior to even becoming mayor as I ran I agreed with your ideas. You guys made the right decision to lower the mayor's salary at that point I think some of the some of the day-to-day things have changed and I came forward saying that I supported that and and I Actually said I would come forward in my first year even though I'm not required to that I would take the salary on whatever you guys said that 55 60 whatever you came up with I Stated that before I was elected. I still believe in that because that's what I believe the the Job is worth at this point. That's and we're taking not my name off of it. That's what the job I think is is should be worth at this point. I think You know, I was here right after Mayor Schuchat was here He says that we shouldn't have to pay high-paid people in there I beg to differ with that because mayor you had My cuts sitting right next to you getting paid a full-time salary as your assistant. That's not there anymore You too had to high-paid people in from the mayor's office being my cuts as your assistant and the mayor's job We don't have that anymore. I agree with the city administrator and what you your people did but we've had two people one on the policy side and one on the procedural side for many years long be even before the Jim Amoreo it was Michael Hutz for many years and To say that we didn't have those two people or that we didn't have to fight full-time salary is incorrect Thank you, mayor. Is there any other discussion on this? Okay, we have a we'll take a vote on this and an aye vote would be to Pass the resolution that we would go to a binding referendum Belt is excused here Orin I Carlson I Decker no Haman I Hammond no Heidemann I Cough no Kittleson says no Madda check it raceler. No Van Akron. No Versi I Five eyes six nose Motion motion fails. So the recommendation the recommendation to the Common Council then on Monday night Will be that this Resolution failed. Thank you We will move on now to item number 11, which is council document number 6-1 from 3 5 From the March 5th 2012 council meeting general ordinance number 71-11-12 by Alder persons Carlson Boran and Haman and ordinance reestablishing the salary schedule for the office of mayor. I need a motion to Open up discussion on this Alderman Carlson Move dissent to the council with the favorable favorable recommendation second We have a motion in a second Descendants council with a favorable recommendation under discussion Alderman raceler. Thank you Alderman Carlson Do you thank you, Mr. Sure? Do you maybe want to explain what exactly we're doing for the people at home? Sure? The resolution states that if the if we if we have a full-time mayor that starting in 2013 the salary would be $50,000 and The benefit package would be the same as our non-represented employees Which is currently that our non-represented employees pay 12% of their health insurance and as an elected official? I believe the rate into the Wisconsin retirement fund is More than the non reps at 5.8. I believe it's 6.63 very close to that 6.65. Thanks, Alderman Haman In 2014 with a 2.5% increase That salary would would increase to fifty one thousand two hundred and fifty in 2015 that salary would increase to fifty two thousand five hundred and thirty one dollars and in two thousand and sixteen That salary would be fifty three thousand eight hundred and forty four dollars And that's also in the past as in the past with a full-time mayor that mayor would not be able to have any outside employment if We were going to have a part-time mayor The salary starting in 2013 would be twenty five thousand and again would have a two point five percent increase every year so 2014 it would be twenty five thousand six hundred and twenty five dollars 2015 it would be twenty six thousand two sixty six Excuse me in two thousand sixteen it would be twenty six thousand nine hundred and twenty two dollars the That part-time salary would also include the city benefits as I described before 12% the mayor would pay 12% for the for the Health insurance and the six points 6.65 into the Wisconsin retirement fund If the if it was a part-time position I believe the mayor would be able to have outside employment So that's pretty much what it covers Alderman racer. Do you want to follow up if I can follow up on that? Then I guess I'm going to recommend that we file That document and because it has the part-time language in which has already been decided in the previous vote That we would not recommend that and we could fight the salary out in item number 12 Which would be the next one Well, we have a motion on the floor right now What what we just voted on previously about the referendum is merely a recommendation to the council on Monday night Would you still would you still want to take a we'll take a vote on on Alderman Carlson's resolution and I think based on the language it has the part-time information in there It's that it's not it doesn't have any value So that's why I'm looking at trying to fight it out and in the next document that has a specific value for a full-time mayor and Kind of go there because if it got passed Then we're basically leaving that part-time language in there forever and and there would not be a part-time If it wasn't passed at the council meeting well, we're gonna have to vote. We're gonna have to vote on them all again Monday night Regardless how we vote on them tonight? I Believe Alderman versey is next. Thank you It is pertinent because you don't know it's not going to pass the referendum might pass on Monday night And this would pertain to that referendum which would be attached whether it's full-time part-time whatever language you want in there This is establishing what Alderman Hammond was talking about with the salaries take out the name full-time part-time It's setting the salary schedule allowing a part-time or whatever you want to call them to have outside employment at $25,000 so this document is important and it needs to be I guess based on the wording That's why I'm saying it's not because it has the part-time in there number one that doesn't cover what Alderman Hammond thought and If it goes forward It just doesn't cover it's gonna be too muddy Well as I said, we're gonna have to vote on these all again Monday night So I I would rather I'm gonna take a vote after we're done with discussion here on Alderman Carlson's document and I'd rather take a vote on that tonight and come up with some kind Yeah, or nay going back to the council on Monday night, and then I think we can we can take up those issues Monday night Alderman Carlson you're next Alderman Hammond beat me to it Your finger Next I had the next lady of flashing here is Alderman Hammond Whether we not this document makes it through Monday night is irrelevant All we have done at this point in time is take the resolution with referendum and it's going back to council with a negative If it goes through that body with a positive we have to have this document there to support it This document needs to be in place Regardless of whether or not that referendum passes come Monday night. We need this piece of paperwork Thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Chair I'm just wondering if it wouldn't be appropriate just to take those two documents together and Let's have the conversation Between with both documents on out there, you know are you talking about the next agenda item? Yes, would it be appropriate to take both of those items and let's have the conversation on salary at this point Alderman Carlson, it's your document. What do you want to do with it? We pull for the next all right. It's got salary All right, let's pull forward then document number 12 council document number 7-1 from the council meeting of March 5th 2012 Subs of subs of general ordinance number 40-11-12 by Alderman Racelor Samson Decker and versey In ordinance reestablishing the salary schedule for the office of mayor and I had in parentheses That was the one that we had talked about earlier at $60,000 Okay, so we'll continue to discuss the previous one item number 11 and number 12 Any discussion on those? Alderman Hammond Thank you. And again, I go back. It's the term part-time that that disturbs in whatever salary we want to set I can live with it But the term part-time is is where we need I think to tweak I think first off I think WRF 6.65 I Also think if you look at what the average Private sector person in the state of Wisconsin I've got studies. I brought him up to salaries and grievances his pain. It's right around 18% for a single I think that's the starting point for health insurance for the mayor. I think a couple things it leads by example That's where we're going as a as a city eventually so I think you know that leads by example and Again, whether it's 50 or 55 You know I can live with either one of those numbers as well And then go from there, you know the part-time mayor again Again, I just hate that term because we're all considered part-time really what we're dealing with is what is the benefits package look like? What is the pay package look like part-time just infers no benefits doesn't infer that they work any any fewer hours It's just no benefits. So, you know, again, let's just have that conversation. So I write that's my thought as far as The benefits package and salary levels. I Should as I did with the other document for the people watching Go over what this includes that is $60,000 salary. That would be the first year salary would be $60,000 That would be in 2013 and then that would be a 2.5 percent increase per year for the next three years for 2014 that would be sixty one thousand five hundred two thousand and fifteen sixty three thousand thirty eight dollars and in 2016 that would be sixty four thousand six thirteen and again The full-time mayor would not be able to engage in outside employment and would come contribute the full percent in the six point six five to the Wisconsin retirement fund any discussion Alderman Carlson Well, I would like to make a motion to amend my original document to raise the the health insurance to 18% and keep the Wisconsin retirement system at the same and that applies to both the both pay structures at the 50 and the 25 It's your second second. We have a motion and a second to amend amend your document with both pay structures to raise the health insurance to 18% and Keep the WRS at six point six five So we're going to be voting first of all We're going to be voting first of all on on item number 11 The amended document is there any further discussion on the amended document Alderman Riesler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Again, I won't support that. I know we have a lot. I couldn't hear you But party will or I will not okay We have the wording in the right now the treat the mayor the same as the non reps If the non reps go up the mayors go up I guess yes I like to see a lead by example But it's going to go up either way if the non reps go up if the status quo for public sector stays the same as what it is I don't think we should punish the mayor by having to pay more for his health insurance than anyone else Thank you Alderman Riesler any other discussion, okay, we'll take a vote on Document number 11 and that would be both salary tiers for the 50 for the full time 25 for the part-time with the increase of health insurance up to 18 percent and 6.65 percent Alderman Versey, thank you. This is actually directed to Alderman Hammond to take out the word part-time What could we put in place of that size of salary set for 25,000 18 percent for health insurance? What else could we be in that position? I think it should be just bearer. Sorry. Can I just respond? Go ahead Alderman Hammond. I think it should just be one pay scale and And you know again, we make what? $4,600 a year whatever that number is And You can work one hour a week or you can work 40 hours a week Again, we should be looking at what the job entails and Saturday salary. That's commensurate with that. I just Don't have a specific term. Thank you. Alderman Hammond Alderman Hammond Arguing over full-time part-time it becomes semantics at this point in time You're Alderman Hammond. You're you're correct. You guys got me doing it now You're correct It is exactly what you put into the job is what you're gonna get out of it You can work a part-time job a and I've done it at 30 hours a week making $30,000 a year You can work a full-time job 50 60 hours a week make a $30,000 a year it becomes it really truly is semantics I think that the bottom line is is is the price tag that goes along with what we're doing and that's the one thing that we Haven't brought up where we haven't talked about a price tag yet We haven't put a price tag on those whether or not a part-time or full-time almost becomes irrelevant But we need to establish that ratio. We need to establish those points Putting that price tag on the job the way we see it Part-time at $35,000 a year and you're working 40 hours a week It's not the greatest living, but it's a living. It sure does pay the bills 40 you're 40 plus Hours a week and you're making $55,000 a year now. You're well above what a living wage would be With benefits. We've got to put a price tag to those jobs We're gonna get out of the job what you're gonna put into the job And then and then that's what we're looking at is giving the voters the chance to decide what you're going to do Thank You Alderman. I'm an Alderman Heidemann. You're next. Thank you chairman Being one of the only people in this room actually had a part-time position as mayor I was never introduced as the part-time mayor. You're the mayor whether you're putting I said You're the mayor of the city you should weigh it You should be very proud of holding that position whether you're making 25,000 50,000 60,000 And if you're voted in by your the constituents within the city of Sheboygan Then whatever they're gonna decide whether they want a full-time or part-time Which I would like to see that up as a referendum, but again, you never introduced as part-time mayor You're just the mayor of Sheboygan Thank You Alderman Heidemann Alderman Hammond and again, that's that's my point You know we're arguing over a part-time versus full-time. Well really we're arguing over is What is the mayor doing and how much should he or she be paid to do it and what benefit package goes along with it? I mean Joe or Alderman Heidemann is exactly right doesn't get introduced as full-time or part-time mayor It's introduced as the mayor now How much do we want to pay that individual for the amount of time and or for the job duties? They have you know, that's what it really comes down to and if we pay him Like in Alderman Hammond's I won't make that mistake Alderman Hammond's example $40,000 because we believe that with the city administrator and The reduced duties that's what it's worth then that's what we should pay that individual We don't get the talent elected official whether they can work 30 hours or 40 hours or 20 hours The tax bearer decided that based off of how well that individual is doing their job So again, I think not that I don't support necessarily A lower salary, but this whole part-time versus full-time conversation to me doesn't make any sense It's what is the benefit package and what is the salary if we say? We're gonna pay you 30 grand. We're not gonna give you any benefits and you can have a second job kind of Figure out that you're not gonna have a full-time mayor because they're probably gonna have a full-time job or could have a Full-time job, so I think it's the way we structure that is what's gonna dictate. Thank you Thank you Alderman Hammond Alderman Hammond No, we got him doing it too You said it just at the last possible moment there and it's it's the wording that comes into it We're referring to it right now as a part-time error But we're giving this person the opportunity then to have a job Outside just here at City Hall and then that's something that don't have in the wording for a full-time error The full-time elected official. This is the job period end of conversation If we make it a part-time position they can go find a way to supplement their income outside of these walls Thanks Alderman Hammond Alderman Racler. Thank you. I guess I'll concur on some of those things and I guess I'll defer to the press editorial where it says we need 100% of the person's time and I think that's right. This is going to be the side job They're not gonna go out and get a side job for they're good This is gonna be their $25,000 a year side job while they have a full-time job someplace else And if we want them dedicated to the city of Sheboygan It has to be a full-time position where we get 100% of their time. I don't want this to be the mayor's side job I don't want to have the conflict of interest come up. I don't want to have any of that I want to have our mayor be our full-time mayor, and if it's a full-time cheerleader. That's just one person's terminology Alderman Heidemann I don't want to put you on the spot But back in the day when you were the mayor of Sheboygan Falls Being a part-time position and a granted Sheboygan Falls is a lot smaller city than the size of Sheboygan Can you give us some sense of the how much sense that you spent As mayor of Sheboygan Falls on a weekly basis, you know with your meetings and your other responsibilities Chairman I'm actually making more as an alderman in Sheboygan than I was in the mayor of Sheboygan Falls I mean you're gonna pay it back Yeah But I would say on an average who's anywhere between 20 and 25 hours or what you were called upon to do Again, we ran the meetings. We had a smaller common council We didn't have as many people and again, it is a smaller community But again, it doesn't come down to the pay that you're getting to perform this job. I mean Alderman Hamann said, you know, I didn't take on being an alderman because I wanted to get the money If it takes me 20 hours in a week, I'll work the 20 hours a week Again, you just do it for the love and what you want to do for your constituents in Sheboygan It basically shouldn't come down to how much money you're getting paid Thanks, Alderman Heidemann. Alderman Carlson you're next Thank you. I would just have to wholeheartedly disagree with your last statement Alderman racer look at Alderman Hamann. For example, he works a full-time job He works many much more than just that standard 40 hours a week He probably puts in more time in City Hall than Then most of the council besides the few retired people, but he works a full-time job and still dedicates Many many hours here in the city So I think that statement is just way off base and the the press is way off base with that statement also Thanks, Alderman Carlson Alderman then after you're next. Thank you. I'll politely disagree with my colleagues over there. I Think as Alderman Hamann said it is about the mayor's office It's about the time requirement that the mayor or the position calls for and and what is the compensation for that by by lowering it Down to twenty five thousand dollars in in a position that I think is going to call for a large percent percent of your time A large portion of your time way more than than part-time type hours it's going to be your full-time job and By reducing it to the salary scales here I think you really constrict the the type of applicants that are able to even go for that type of position I think you really constrict the type of person who has that lifestyle or that ability to do that and and then you have to ask Yourself, so what are you expecting from that person? What do you expect to get from that person? Do you expect to just get them to show up on Monday night meetings pound of gavel and You know go to ribbon cuttings or what are our expectations? I don't think any of that has been discussed I think the mayor's position in the city of Sheboygan requires a lot more than that It requires as the paper said a hundred percent of your involvement. I think we've seen that I don't think that part of that has changed that much. I think the mayor's position requires a great deal of your time I'm in favor of lowering the salary position I have been all along no matter who the mayor was or my who matter who they marry this I have been in favor of lowering the the salary scale Based on the fact that I believe in the city administrator position and I believe it's the right thing to do But I don't believe that this in any way is a part-time job for a city this size. We need a full-time mayor I think it requires full-time As far as full-time duties full-time investment of your time what we pay that person I think is a difference like like Alderman Heiderman said Alderman Hammond said the mayor is the mayor But I think our mayor here in the city of Sheboygan requires a great deal of time and will Require from that person a great deal of time and if you if you're only going to be offering twenty five thousand dollars I think you really restrict the type of applicants and the ability of who wants to to take that on I don't think there are a lot of people that are able to do that So I think I think reducing the salary to some of the ideas that have been put out as appropriate But I do rethink that our mayor position here in the city of Sheboygan Requires a great deal of time and I want to see that person fulfill that time not go out and work a different job because they need to Make their their family budget work like I said, I think by doing this we really constrict the type of applicants we're gonna get Thank you Alderman vernachron older person Kittleson Thank you chairman, and I guess I have to agree The people that I talked to out in the district and I do a lot of walking and talking they want a full-time mayor And we need to pay that Full-time there's a ton of work for the mayor to do. I know that I And I'm one of those retired people that's around here a lot and and I know how much work there is here So I I I think we need a full-time mayor, and I think we need to pay that person properly As our mayor said we don't have a my cuts type person in that office anymore That mayor is taking on a lot of responsibility. We need to pay him properly. We need to keep him full-time Thank you all our person Kittleson. Is there any further discussion? Alderman Hammond again, you know the conversation full-time part-time. That's not the argument here The argument is the duties of the mayor or X What is the pay that goes along with that and the benefit package that goes along with that? You know, I don't care how many hours The mayor spends in that office The taxpayers will decide whether that's enough hours and whether or not they're doing a job. The question is Mayor's got to do X Y and Z. What is that worth? And that's the decision we have to make I know it's been framed by the editorial and I didn't read it So but sorry press the editorial and it's been you know in letters and stuff this full-time versus part-time That's not the argument in my mind the argument my mind is here's the job description Here's a set of duties. How much is that in pay and benefits? To Alderman release this point I have to disagree with him. I think that As the elected official elected by the taxpayers, you know, it should be More commensurate with what the people that are paying the bills are getting as far as you know The health insurance and things like that, and I'm not going to speak for the for our current mayor but again, I think He may agree with that that sentiment as well. I know if I was getting benefits, I'd want it that way it's hard to represent somebody when You know you're paying only 12% or 15% again as elected official city employees different and tell somebody Well, that's feeling the pain of paying 25 or 30 percent towards their health insurance so I would ask that I was fully support keeping that 18 percent in there the 6.65 and You know the 50 55 thousand dollar salary Thank You. Alderman Hammond. Any further discussion? Okay. We have a motion and a second to pass Resolution number six one And it was amended. I don't think we've taken a vote on the amendment yet. We haven't so first of all we're going to take a vote on the amended document which increases the health insurance premium to 18 percent and Keeps the well the Wisconsin health insurance at 6.65 So we'll call the roll on that one just repeating so we're keeping the salary at 50,000 within with the or just amending. Yeah, the only amendment so far was just to increase the health insurance and keep the And we're keeping the Wisconsin retirement at 6.65 so an I vote would Approve the amend amendment just the amendment All right Orin hi Carlson. All right, Decker. All right Hammond, I Hammond, I Heidemann. All right, cut. No Kittleson says I Racelor no, Ben Akron. I Inversy I Nine eyes to nose Motion passes Now we have to take a vote on the document Taking into account those changes of the 18 percent in the 6.65 Alderman been accurate Thank You chairman again. I did support the amendment. However, I'm not going to support this document I would support that amendment on the other document I don't support the document because of the the two separate pay scales if that same amendment was on the Upcoming document, I would support that but I'm not going to support this document because of the the two different pay scales Because I don't believe that's the right way to go. So I just want to explain again I have both I Support the amendment to go to 18 percent. However, I don't I won't support this document as it is Thanks, Alderman Ben Akron Alderman versey your next chairman Alderman Ben Akron you have to remember also that this is kind of needed if document number 10 passes on Monday night They had that referendum we need this so Number 10 has not died yet. You have to wait for a full council. So if you kill one and not the other You're still gonna it's still gonna need to be brought back up and passed So you still need both if it does go to referendum the people choose it may come back They choose a full-time mayor. So it's not up to us. It'll be up to them But we have it all in place. So either way, I mean you can look at it Not supporting the the fact of that but you still have to support the document if it goes through on Monday night Thanks. Thank you. Alderman versey any further discussion before the vote Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you Attorney McClain, could you Let us know your feelings on what was just said there if number 10 were to go through Monday night would we be able to eventually bring something back for our salary for the part-time? The first document called for a referendum at the November election Yes And it's my understanding committee the whole recommended Against that. Yes So, I don't know. I don't see that there's any conflict help, you know those that Recommended against that. I assume we're gonna recommend against the document that has two different pay scales on it But I don't know If the question is if if there is a referendum on whether or not The mayor's position is full-time or part-time It depends again then on as Alderman Hammond talked about Is it more appropriate to set what the salary is Regardless of whether the title is full-time or part-time what you expect as the The duties of the office And it does become sort of a semantic thing as to whether or not it's full-time or part-time if you know So I don't As it relates to the motion you've got in front of you I don't see that you have to vote To recommend that to the council just because the council might choose to To pass a referendum on whether full-time or part-time Let me ask you a question attorney McLean Statutorily the only and I guess we're talking about job descriptions. I don't want to get into that very much but statutorily the mayor is presides at the Council meetings is on the plan plan commission the transit commission has police powers And anything in addition to that is pretty much up to what the mayor wants to do would you agree? I mean how active the mayor wants to be with the Chamber of Commerce or the development corporation But statutorily did I pretty well lay out what the mayor's duties are? runs the council meetings has Adopts or presents the budget budget. I forgot the budget. Yes as a line item veto on the budget That's not statutory, but that's by our ordinance in the city And on that note just like the comment on one item that was I think former mayor sushi had made some comment that But the council changed the form of government you didn't change the form of government you create a new position The form of government is still council mayor form of government you have not Expressly taken away any of the statutory authority of the mayor you've taken You've assigned some administrative functions to the chief administrative officer, but the the mayor's statutory authority Was not changed by creating the chief administrative officer You know on a day-to-day basis as to what the mayor does one thing wouldn't be doing with the chief administrative officer now that we've got is Really directly overseeing the departments But that's basically the difference as I see it Attorney McLean if we vote on Monday night going back to the previous document where we Decide whether we're going to put this to a referendum if the vote on Monday night is not to go to a referendum It's a moot point then whether the mayor is going to be full-time or part-time The mayor is still going to be a full-time person coming up in 13. Is that correct? Unless we would take unless we would change The charter ordinance Take a separate vote to make it if we wanted to do that ourselves we could change it to a part-time job But if this does not go to or if we vote not to take it to a referendum on Monday night It's kind of a moot point unless we make a change. It's going to be a full-time position starting it continuing in 13 not necessarily if you change the salary such that it really $20,000 salary with no benefits as a practical matter. It's probably going to be a part-time position, right? Without a referendum or anything. So I think it really hinges on What you set as a salary for the position somebody's going to have to take a look at it and say, you know, am I going to run for that job? You know, can I afford in my situation to do that? As a living and support my family or am I retired and I don't need I don't need to support a family I've got to Some retirement pension check coming in and I'm just doing this as a part-time thing and maybe a lower salary is acceptable You know, it really hinges on I think what you said is the salary and What you feel the position is worth. Thank you attorney McLean any further discussion before I take the vote Okay, we're voting now on an on the amended Ordinance establishing the salary for mayor and the benefits and the amendment is that we're going to 18% for the health insurance keep it at 6.65 for the Wisconsin retirement fund with two salary schedules 50,000 for part-time and 20. I'm sorry 50,000 for full-time 25,000 for part-time. It's called the role, please Moran I Carlson I Decker no Hammond I Hammond I Heidemann I Koff no Kittleson says no Racelor no Van Akron no Inversy I we have six eyes and five no motion carries Okay, now we're down to document number 12 Which will take a separate vote on after discussion and that's council document number 7 1 from March from the March 5th 2012 council meeting Subs of subs of general ordinance number 40 dash 11 dash 12 by alder persons racelor Samson Decker and versey and ordinance re-establishing the salary schedule for office of the mayor $60,000 and I previously read what the salary schedule would be for the ensuing years So I'll entertain a motion on that on that document Alderman racelor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that we support this and move it forward with a positive recommendation second we have a motion and a second to Move ahead with this Alderman verse a year next if I may throw an amendment out there right away on this if we can go change the salary to 50,000 and 18% for the health insurance and WRS at 665 second Okay, we have an amendment to change this document to $50,000 Alderman versey would that include the 2.5% increase a year then correct. Okay. Is that all right with a second? Yes Any discussion on that Hearing no discussion. Let's please take the roll on that one Just on the amendment right just on the amendment Warren I Carlson, I Decker I Hammond I Hideman I Cough no Kittleson says no racelor no Banachran I Bursey I Eight eyes three nose Okay, the motion carries and is there any discussion on that before we take a vote on the document itself Alderman Carlson. Did you have anything or was that from before? I was gonna make the same motion. Thank you Okay, no discussion. Let's take a vote on on the document number seven one as amended with a $50,000 salary raising the health insurance premium share for the merit to 18% and WRS at 6.65. Please call the roll Oran I Carlson I Decker I Hammond I Hammond I Hideman I Cough no Kittleson says no racelor no Banachran I Inversy I Eight eyes three nose motion carries Document passes as amended Next we have the next meeting date that'll be determined. I will entertain a motion to adjourn so move second We have a motion and a second to adjourn all in favor. I Opposed chair votes. I thank you