 What up everybody? Remember me? I used to do like stuff on the YouTubes I stopped Anyway, we are gonna do a little live stream with our friend Lily I'm gonna wait for some oh 20 people like just showed up out of the blue really quickly So let's wait for some more folks to pop in. I don't know how many people are gonna come load But wait for the usual suspects to file in I will put the chat overlay up so that yep So we'll see you and I you know on one side screen and we're gonna see comments on the other side of the screen as you pop In say hello, let us know where you're from. Let us know how you're doing. Hey cat. What's up? Some of you guys might be coming through sort of my community some through lilies We share a lot of people we do share a lot of people were like my two favorite people And then they include Josh, but a lot of people were like, oh my gosh. Oh, you know a lot of people. I think are There's a huge overlap for sure Liverpool is in the house. We have a fellow New Yorker. Hello Danielle I always get to see what up be Texas in the house If you came through Sweden, love it love you both and Josh Oh, Josh didn't so happy got a clue Maryland is in the house. Well, well a few minutes. Hey stranger. What up GBG? That's Jason grease Bailey garage miss him Hey, Laura bit Laura Betty and Tara. Oh Multiple people watching it looks like Aurora hack attack. I love the names. I'm always a fan of the names anyway So for those of you who came started through my community and don't know Lily This is my friend Lily. How do you say your last name Lily? I never know how to say it sighs like rice like rice sighs Okay, now I know learn something new every day for not careful Anyway, Lily and I have known each other for a couple of years Well, you've done a little bit of collaboration Lily's been on my podcast and whatnot and we wound up talking about a thing on a few weeks ago I don't even know what started it. We're like, yeah, let's have a let's talk and we did and I came up with this thing So Lily why don't you introduce yourself and tell the fine people where you who you are and what you're all about Yeah, hi, I'm Lily. I saw somebody maybe it was Eva from Southern California. So I'm in Los Angeles, California I was born here grew up here. I did live a little in New York, but mostly LA for my whole life And Little bit about anxiety, I definitely always felt like an anxious child who grew up in an anxious adult Definitely very classic a lot of people Identify with always worrying about my parents dying and bad things happening and thinking That maybe with all my worry and prayers and magical thinking I could keep everybody safe And I also had a really great childhood and then definitely You know, health anxiety really influenced by I'm gonna make this brief Then it went to like a disordered place and especially after having a panic attack driving on the freeway in 2011 and Then you know with experiences of derealization and just intrusive thoughts and severe before that I also had had like pretty healthy anxiety OCD and so I was also a school psychologist during this time. I've always loved mental health talking with people connecting and I tried a lot of stuff and Some things worked, but I think it kept me thinking and obsessing and resisting I think a big thing was everything I was doing to not be anxious and to not panic And I was really surprised that why is it wasn't working But mainly I think the biggest thing was I was incredibly afraid until I found something that really helped me Like stop resisting stop trying so hard And and it changed my life and I really was like why doesn't everybody know this because I felt like I suffered for seven years And I was a school psychologist doing that in person And I really did want to share with adults because I felt as I think a lot of people You can feel really alone and feel like my anxiety is the worst my panic's the worst Especially if people in your like day-to-day life don't have that same experience And I always thought need to be in person until the pandemic when so many adults were online And I decided to Just you know run a group virtually also a lot of adults were on social media And that's where I kind of just started coaching while being a school psychologist and just really fell in love with it and then transitioned to Doing that full time really helping people Primarily who are experiencing anxiety and panic um and OCD which I didn't really realize was Was part of my experience when I was in it But then became really really clear about that was what was going on and so I share a lot on social media because When I was struggling I couldn't put it into words sometimes and I felt like It was hard and so kind of to be on the other side it will occur to me. Oh, this is how I describe this and that's and Or now I you know answer questions or do things but and then I also Coach and I see people individually and in a group and in a community And I think having conversations like this and being in community is like so Just brings it to the next level and I love it and so that's a little about me Cool. I put two links. I think they went to all the platforms Well, he's been on my podcast. We did two episodes. We broke it into two So if you follow those links that are in the comments, you can hear more about her story told Most of the story and both podcast episodes, which is kind of cool Anyway, um, so it's interesting because I think what we wanted to really talk about today in the conversation We had because those of you who know both of us know that sometimes we sound very similar and sometimes we sound very different And we wanted to talk about how that kind of works and why even though sometimes it's okay to sound different And sometimes it's okay to sound the same And some days you might need lily's voice some days you might need mine Some days you maybe you never need mine and it's all about lily, you know, it could be don't know But um, how these things sort of fit together and it started, you know You said I found something that helped me stop resisting. We can talk about that I know I think I know where you want to go with that And it's a I know how this started you had made a post on instagram and I got some heat over this about like I don't talk about exposures I I frame it this way and if you love if you like exposures cool lily's always super respectful of everybody's different stuff But I don't I don't go down that road kind of And uh, and it was the whole like oh that almost sounds like it'd be like oh lily has a gentler way And I reached out and we had a conversation and we came up with this little thing so You know, I love the the fact that Sometimes we sound so different, but then when you get under the hood there's actually We don't we're not all that different in the end anyway So i'm just wondering if you guys, you know, if you guys in the comments Have any comments on that about when you notice that lily and I look Looked different clearly. Thank god for you and um, you know, and when we sound very different what that means to you guys But what do you think what does it mean to you? Well that we have different voices and different We we speak about this in different ways sometimes we do, you know, but I think at the core of it It's true, you know, and that's what I was um Like just getting curious about I think I think our core message and understanding of anxiety and of like recovery and healing and being You know in our lives in a way that like I think probably both Everybody that comes to us wants to enjoy their life and like live free whatever that means to them And so I thinking of the similarities and then thinking why we sound different um Well, I wonder if you know when to start off with the title the best way to heal is the way that works for you I think I when I So for me my what I share is based on the three principles understanding and it It really brought it from like thinking about it intellectualizing it to like oh like something about that and so That was what I really needed was to think less and try less hard and um But but I think the the the similarities are When we resist something and we have all like I'm gonna blank on this but why we might sound different is I don't know. I'm not coming up with like it's not coming out of my mind the way that we wanted it that I wanted to come out. Um This is interesting. Oh, that's fine I would almost look I would start right with the title of this this um, you know recovery the title of the video So it's on my youtube channel. I tiled it. I didn't really give it much thought You notice how I use the word recovery and you use the word healing Yeah, I never say healing and I have my reasons for not saying healing because I I tend not to want to conceptualize this As a wound that needs to be healed Now I have had people push back really hard on that because they feel like I'm invalidating their experience I don't mean to do that. I'm just trying to offer maybe a different View on this because healing is is the word we hear all the time I'm going to say that it's a learning problem not a healing problem Lily might might like the word healing and if you're listening and healing is something that resonates with you and Gets into the your feels and you like it then cool then call it healing It doesn't matter and one of the things I want to point out is that sometimes people Feel like there's there's like this behind the scenes people like you and I are competing with each other because Lily's gentler and drew sounds like a drill sergeant sometimes and they must be rivals in there They're competing against each other. No like no not the least I can't I can't stress that enough Yeah, and those things there's really There's so many roads to healing and for me Something I was pushing myself like I um am a go-getter like I am a doer and so It was really helpful for me to like think less and have A bit of a more like Recognizing my inner resilience, you know, I think that was what really started to change it for me because I did what would have been exposures, you know, um and and part of it I did feel like Um Proud of myself for like, you know, when I drove on the freeway again after avoiding it for a year and I drove to San Francisco and over bridges Um, but I didn't like the my that my understanding didn't move from an intellectual understanding to a deep knowing So I was still just like shaking and incredibly scared and like it was really hard and I was um I was still resisting and so for me having something explained in the way Where it like sparked these insights in me that moved beyond something like intellectual, um Where and so for me when I think the exposure I go to my head and I think more but that's just me, you know, and I think then It was realizing like how beautifully we're designed and how my I saw how I got through my first panic attack. I didn't need to think about it. I didn't need to resist it. I didn't I you know um And these were just kind of truths that I saw and I saw I just saw things on a deeper level that I hadn't and that's what started to make the change because And maybe somebody had said this to me but like I really thought That I was keeping myself safe by thinking about panic all the time and scanning and being hyper vision And this is where I think we probably sound the same Of um All the things that I was doing and I saw one that wasn't necessary because I made of wisdom in common sense I have this all human beings do we have something in us that will tell us what to do at the precise moment We need it and not a moment before no planning, you know, sure We might plan if we want to take a holiday or you and I plan here Here's our links, but like we don't need to plan for the catastrophes and when I saw that all of my hyper vigilance and Thinking and scanning and trying to stop it was actually keeping me in this stress response Um and so to me something how I was explained When someone was explaining it and the three principles do have a bit of like science because they're facts and then the spirituality um Was so free and so that's why I shared that because it was exactly what I needed it was it brought it um in such a simple way And it like just totally quieted everything down in a way that nothing else had and so that's kind of where I share Because it was exactly what I needed. Yeah, like Just a deep understanding Not pressure and then I found myself Um without putting pressure on myself and saying now you're going to do the drive Life would show up and there would be you know, and so that's where I think oftentimes life shows up And there's these natural exposures and for me the word exposure would have put pressure I could have gone into my head for me um But I still did things and then I saw how My thoughts always flowed, you know, like we're just we're never stuck There's less for me to do. I don't need to resist um And so that was kind of I think You said a thing though. You said I made what did you say I made of I made of wisdom wisdom and content Okay, so here you go. Now look at the two of us on screen if you guys know us Would you ever hear me say I made of wisdom or tell anybody that they're made of wisdom? No I probably wouldn't use that language, but you might hear me say you're not broken or hopeless Or I know you're okay. So but you hear so the way I interpret that is That was the way you needed to hear it to change your actions, right? So we always agree on it's the action or the lack of action in certain instances I'm going to drop my my safety or I'm going to drop my resistance Whatever that is or I'm going to start to do things differently And everybody gets there in their own way and at their own time So if you hear us talk about these things and you're struggling to let go or do an exposure or surrender Or willfully tolerate whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter and you're having a hard time getting there for lily That was a thing that resonated and got you to the point where you were brave enough to drop your resistance and roll the dice a little bit Right, maybe for some people that works and for other people. It's a different message that gets them to that point Yes, yeah, and so I that's why I think it's okay to you know The way is the way that works for you. What which one resonates for you and on Tuesday It might be that one on a Wednesday might be another one. Who knows, right? So You know, it's tough to say interestingly. I saw I saw this comment. I want to who said it. It was Danielle So Danielle said I knew I knew this is gonna happen I'd love to know more about lily not doing exposures and we talked about this before like because you know You were like, well, I don't I don't think in terms of exposures We're just cool. And then you had people sort of almost calling you out. But but isn't that exposure? Like yeah, what you like? No, you do. We do exposure man, and we got you What what's your thought on that? Are you not doing any exposures? I've never done an exposure Um, but I mean like if someone was dancing, um, you know, and someone's like you're exercising You know, it's like, well, I'm dancing is exact exercise. Correct. You know, so, um What you know, what would be your definition of an exposure drill? So I think we have the same definition. You just don't call it that so for instance If you have a recurrence of maybe some of the intrusive thought themes that came back that that used to dog you and haunt you And you decide well, I'm not Okay. Yeah, I hear you and I'm really activated by this thought but I'm not going to do anything about that activation. I'm just going to let it go That's an exposure. Ultimately, you're doing the same thing in an organically framed way that I might tell somebody to do an ERP So in the end you're tolerating the discomfort. That's the and I always try and say the exposure isn't a thing It's the it's the feeling that you work in a new way through Yes, but for some people I agree that saying you have to do an exposure Puts them into that like pressure cooker that may be really just I think you're just saying you're correct me if I'm wrong Life is going to make you do stuff. Anyway, if you're going to start living your life, guess what? You're going to be doing exposures. You just might call it life, which I think is awesome. Probably. Yeah You look the same Yes, and I think also For some people because a lot of people what's so cool is because we're on social media people start to know us And so a lot of people are drawn to me or and they are also drawn to both of us But they might have found that they were putting a lot of pressure and so but they so Even just saying okay, I can take the pressure. It takes some of that stress off but then Most people life shows up again and again at little times like hey, we're out of milk Um And and then but if they were thinking I have to go, you know, but what I've seen with my clients You know this one woman in particular she used to really set aside time to practice driving. She had a fear of left hand turns But so she would set it up and she'd have her music and she'd practice and But she was getting a little bit in her head and she wasn't having the progress she wanted So when we were working it was like just put it on pause see if you A lot of what I share with the in with the principles It's like about kind of seeing things in a new light having insights having it because a lot of people are like, I know this They know it intellectually, but they don't know it here So I just said to her just listen and put aside trying to find your times for practicing the left hand turns or trying to get in the mood for it And then she was driving with her kids and The opportunity to do a left hand turn came up and she just felt like yeah, I'll do it And she was like so surprised because she's like I don't I never do it when my kids are in the car I didn't have my music on but something felt like hey doing a left hand turn isn't that big of a deal So sometimes it occurs naturally And people don't actually they were like they're surprised they don't feel uncomfortable and though Life shows up and people do feel uncomfortable like they wanted to go out and they're you know at a wine and cheese event and they feel anxious and Rather than leaving they decide to just Um Be curious because a lot of what I do talk about which I think some of the same is when we resist something It feels so much bigger and kind of accepting to some of the words that maybe I use that you wouldn't I found it's like You know you soften, you know and you just May actually use that word those words all the time. Oh, okay Like you you know, it's like and so people get curious like get curious about it And this one woman who actually went to a wine and cheese event Some anxiety showed up but rather than Resisting it and then thinking all this stuff and how am I going to get out? And this always and she just let it be there and then it occurred to her She said oh the wine and cheese were so great because she said I had this big sensory experience if I ate a little cheese I ate a little wine and So that was probably would have been called an exposure um but I think I think the analogs and sort of the exposure world would be I have people all the time that say like well I've that exposure sucked. Well, why because I don't know it wasn't It doesn't like it didn't do anything It wasn't hard. Okay, cool. Well, like take the wind I guess like enjoy your day then but sometimes people will have the same feeling like I couldn't make it be hard today But but then two days later like well, I did it again. It was really hard how come So I do kind of get how the word exposure sometimes feels like a demand But ultimately I would argue that we are all getting to the same place where I'm going to take a chance That I don't have to save myself Whatever way that looks in any given context and see how it turns out You know, I'm going to trust myself to get myself through this like I think you all agree, right? I think I think everybody in the room has what it takes to do that. Lily might say well, you're all made of wisdom and Yes, yeah, I would say yeah, okay. I would say you're all actually courageous You just you just forgot that you are haven't found it yet No, I'm not I'm not I'm not strong and brave. Well, I think you are you just haven't found it yet Yeah, well And when I start having a conversation with people because I love that you're like and that's what But if you when you said something you are courageous maybe that would really speak to me That would light something up beyond my thinking Um, you know, when I've talked with people share some stories about your wisdom and your common sense or you're like that's They start to see Things that used to look like failures, you know, this woman woman. She was on a semester abroad She was in college and she experienced derealization and depersonalization and But she was towards the end. So she was like, I just have to stick it out So she went to I think she was in italy, you know, she went to class every day She's still socialized. She like passed her classes But because she kept experiencing dpdr She had looked at it as a big failure until and she was talking Kind of the courageousness. She was like, wait I went to school in a foreign country. I did it. I passed my classes. I still socialized and I got back on the plane You know, and so it's like people can start to see their stories of resiliency even though Oh, I was still anxious, right? Like, um Yeah, I love that of saying you are courageous. You are strong and I often use the words You're not broken, you know, and the only thing wrong with you is that you think there's something wrong with you And it's like it becomes this We think about ourselves so much and that it's so big Yeah, I mean, I'm loving the comments because everybody's chiming in with their specific experiences that echo both of these things And a combination of them It's really great. You know, somebody just said like, uh, Almost every part of life was an exposure for Like, uh, you know, I didn't have to plan them because every part of life was an exposure for me Like, yeah, that happens Especially my dad people in the room like you're in it right now. You're in the exposure right now if you're feeling so Yes, all at that point. It doesn't matter, right, but You know, and I think also People get to make recovery for them, you know, um, where I think sometimes if people Have had someone else recommending the exposures like sometimes, you know, I had someone Um, and then her next thing was she was going to play with a Ouija board and then she was like, wait I don't actually even care. And so, you know, recognizing you can do what you want to do Like you can live a long happy life with no Ouija board But you might say well, I do want to drive and stay home alone and Be with my kids alone, you know, and so I think Knowing that recovery Can look any way for you, you know, um I don't know and that's kind of I think sometimes where people felt like it was arbitrary and it wasn't actually um like Wait, I don't I don't want to do this, you know, where they want to do more stuff that actually Would be like real life things, you know, and that's where I think life is um But but there might be for some people they might really like something that's more artificially created That would help them later on in a real life situation I think sometimes it's um, I'm personally, I think life is the best exposure there is Like when I wrote the anxious truth, there's a whole series of lectures of lectures There are lessons in there where I literally talk about how you don't you don't recover so you can live What you're actually doing is living so you can recover and then that's a core thing in recovery We don't realize it the exposures for me when we call it the technical and we do it like the mechanical way like everybody knows exposures Sometimes you need that as a lever because if you give an agoraphobic person who's in the grips of the fear the option to Not do exposures and just sort of wait till my wisdom bubbles up and I feel better Things tend to go slow and they can get a little bit frustrated If that's working for them and they're making what they define as progress and that's cool Then it works But if they're trying to do it with like well, I can't do exposures too much pressure But I've also been at this for two years And I only go out when I feel wise and strong Then that's not working and they say it's not working We have to adjust exposures are what we do to manufacture the triggered state But if you're willing to just go out and say well, let me go and you know do do my life as best I can Life is going to give you the trigger state and he gets practice. So pick which one I would prefer you do life things But sometimes we have to manufacture silly things like driving around the block. What can you do? Yeah, yeah, so sometimes it's one or but it could it's both I think a lot of times And some days you're feeling like I need I need a little softer approach Lily's gonna let me have to hook today, which is fine. She's gonna let me listen myself a little bit more Use my own inner wisdom. I need a day off. It's fine. Lily might be the voice that is in your head saying It's okay to take that day off because you need it. That's wisdom. Listen You may have heard me say stupid things like don't take days off and like drew would be disappointed Good then listen to Lily that day and turn me off like it's totally combine these things, you know in a way, so I don't I the more I get into this and the more I have the privilege of talking more and more people and actually working with people One-on-one now There is no You know that the facetious title the best way to recover is the one that works for you and that might change from day to day week to week Month to month, you don't know Yeah Well, and I know For me, I feel so much better when I'm in my life than in my head And so, you know when I was just talking to a client and she Has been just allowing Like getting curious about she she shared that She ate a strawberry and then sometimes she'll her imagination will say oh am I having an allergic reaction is my throat closing and so rather than Getting really caught up in it. She just kind of Let it be there and And let it all come and then it flowed and and then the same thing happened about something else And so she said so is this what I should do should I always Allow it and accept it and and I said well, what's the alternative? You know and she said well, I guess I could just freak out and go to the emergency room or But I was genuinely curious But why I'm bringing this up is she said so is this what I should do moving forward And I know for me if I make it a technique. Okay, so drew says a very good You know and okay, so what I'm doing is blah blah blah blah blah or okay So lily says this You want to then to me you're in here and you're making something a technique and you're doing it to get an outcome rather than You know before we started recording Like we I'm I'm just a human at peace with living life and I was saying like it's really cool to be here Where like life can just happen and so when you're just To me letting each situation happen and and this might It doesn't have to happen at day one. You might definitely need more guidance But you're not doing something because drew says it's the right thing to me or lily says it's the right thing when we are Talking about what's true for everybody and for the human experience um And that's where I think like your courageousness or your wisdom in common sense Like if you just let your anxious thinking that's distorted and unclear settle for a minute You will to me be guided of you know what I I did plan to do this and that actually is what's like That's what feels best like you've got that in you or you might say I do really need a day off or whatever it would be And that's what I think it's like I'd want to empower people um To hear what we're saying But let it also come from them rather than I'm just doing it Because I think this is the right thing to do Um, yeah, I don't know if that made sense. No, it does make a lot of sense Chris What you look you said using it as a technique and josh and I did an episode of disordered where we talked about Technicifying So like and I know at least in my community a lot of people press me more and I don't know Maybe you have the same thing for the steps Can you tell me exactly what the steps are and that that client you're working with says Okay, so I should do this going forward right like there were special steps that should now be repeated This worked so I'm going to repeat those steps because it worked and really it's never about technicifying because The exposure is really the the sensations the thoughts the discomfort and every time you deal with those you made you may React to them just a little bit different today. I'm a little softer in my approach Tomorrow I might be a little more defiant and it gets me the same place So it doesn't matter in the end. It's the whole idea. Well, I'm going to learn a lesson from Not trying to save myself and when you say it gets me out of here and into here That's the thing where you can't think your way to recovering you can't logic your way Reading all the books and listening all the podcasts is not recovery. You only get it through the experience So I'm also going from here to here. I just in different words Yeah, you don't get it until you do it just hearing it doesn't help right? I mean it helps it helps inform the action, but you got to take the action sooner or later However way you frame that action Yeah, yeah, and you're saying so many things that you'd find in so many different modalities right like just your with your inner wisdom That's the wise mind where like if you could just find a way to let go for a second and get this much space between you and that urgent fear That you might make a different decision in that moment that's based more on who you are as opposed to what you fear Yeah, how you get to that Might be different on different days. Don't know But it's hard when you ask folks like they for me and lily even if I was your therapist or lily was working with you Give me give me steps. Tell me exactly what I do in each situation. We would we wouldn't be hard pressed to do that Yeah, yeah well and I know when I had the steps it didn't work because Like the steps I was also doing it. Okay, I don't want to feel anxious and I wanted to go away as fast as I can You know and so I think when we truly have an understanding of it and we Understand anxiety. We don't fear it. We understand the physical symptoms and also like a large part of my coaching Is we talk about and this would probably some things maybe just said differently or maybe said the same like Like we're designed to go back to balance You know, whatever kind of come this adrenaline or this like it's designed to settle Like we and we do it so much faster when we're not resisting or we're not like adding on to this with this thinking and so to see like when I really saw that like I'm never stuck my thinking flows Um, because I thought what I have to like pull over and do my tapping and do my techniques and like It was a lot of work. I couldn't keep driving and do that, you know, and it was like, oh wait Even if my thinking revs up and I'm saying oh now are your arms and the panic's coming like I can let that I'll be there new thoughts gonna come and I can settle While I'm driving and I just got curious about it like there was less for me to do to Get out of a really noisy head like um I don't know why I started sharing that but like if someone gave me a technique It would have added more noise to my head I would have been like, okay, so these five steps and I don't you know, like if you're feeling panicky You don't really or anxious. You're not like able to multitask So sometimes you can't be at the party or the middle seat on the airplane or driving You're like, what's my steps? Are they working? Am I feeling better? And what I want for people is to be To see actually how simple it can be and how Well, it feels like in the moment when you when you have a feeling like this is an urgent situation The common sense is that your brain protective party brain says you could do something But really even though your anxiety wants you to do more about it It's about doing less about it as crazy as it sounds I'm so the one thing that iris would say was You're going to end up in the same place That settled state right because panic and anxiety are those are not permanent fit They were not designed by evolution or however way you want to say I don't care They were not designed to be permanent like no no you get people get stuck in this If it happens, you'll be stuck in it forever. That's not how the way bodies work So you're going to settle in the end you can settle by doing something or a lot of some things Or you can settle by doing nothing believe it or not the settling is faster with the nothing makes no sense But that's true. I know yeah the settling is faster than nothing And it's also why and I'm picking on anybody you pick whoever you want to follow That's fine with me, but I was involved in a webinar not too long ago You guys probably would know it but the interesting thing about that was to watch the people in the comment section Begging for guidance on which of the I'm going to say steps Well, which step is this and to hear the leaders of that particular group like trying to don't worry about which step it is Don't worry. They were trying so hard to follow the steps To get them to a feeling that it became overwhelming for a lot of them Yeah, yeah, that's why I don't use mnemonics and stuff and listen some really amazing clinicians use mnemonics And maybe that helps you remember things, but I I find that people get a little stuck in which letter which letter am I supposed to Yeah Yeah, yeah, so And that's where I think again like if if you the thing is I think it's funny because the person that maybe came up with it They that mnemonic came to them and that felt easy and that felt great, you know But when sometimes it's not something that we come up with um Then we go into our head and like and we're more in our head than in our life, you know When you were talking it also made me I was like wanting to do a video on it and I haven't yet, but like how We always settle and You know like say you are at the grocery store and you feel some Adrenaline coming and you feel anxious you might think I need to leave, you know, and then when I get to my car I get home But it's like actually that feeling is available still in the grocery store. Um because it's that feeling of like Dropping the thought and I remember seeing that really clearly Like because often I would want to leave so I could like um But it was funny it like it occurred to me Well, I can feel that right here Like it's it's because it's an internal feeling. It's like it's um You know, because sometimes you're in the grocery store, you feel great You know someone I think in the chat was like saying something about a library Sometimes you're in the library and you feel calm sometimes you don't it's like wait, it's not the library You know and then see it's not it's not like you have to stay and do it, but it's to me that's where I think my method is It will often occur to you Oh, that's what I'm looking for and I don't actually have to leave to have that um It's and and that's often the doing nothing because for me what I saw is if it came I was like, oh, I don't want to Feel anxious. What are my steps? Right rather than knowing? Well, this is here uncomfortable is not really unsafe and It's not something magical when I leave the grocery store or I go home Um, and I don't know if it's kind of coming out right but like seeing that having it all come together Was so much more powerful than if someone said here's your five steps to feel better in the grocery store Right, it's also then and I think you've said this then we maybe give the weight to oh, it was the sour candy The ice no, it was all you it was all you um, right Like who gets that'll use softening Yeah Like I get the credit not the technique or the mnemonic steps or the tapping or the whatever like I get the credit But the idea that you would say Well, you know what that feeling is available to me in the grocery store I would say is that but at some point there's a leap of faith, right? So in my orientation toward this and this is where some people would disagree then like in my orientation I don't care what words you use what metaphors what wisdom you think you access sooner or later You do a scary thing By saying I'm gonna I'm gonna see if I can access that My brain my logical brain might say yeah my wise brain says you know what and because I had that I would start to say to myself What the hell is why is my couch special? I would have that thought it didn't matter I was still in a blind panic and I had to do something scary by saying I guess I'm gonna let me follow that thought this time And see if it's really true that the grocery store on the sofa are the same That was the only way I found out All the all the the framing in the world got me to take the leap But sooner or later you do the leap and guess what that's the exposure So don't get so caught up in the I think the word exposure exposure exposure I'll answer a couple of questions if we could I don't know that much more time I could do about another five minutes one person asked We'll go backwards. So jack says, uh, let's put this up on the screen This way we can actually go together I don't get it I keep feeling like something is wrong with me and whenever I try to figure it out It leads me to a dead end and I feel worse. I will never recover Lily. Why don't you want to see you smile right away? Okay. Well to me it's when I try to figure it out. So If you feel like something's wrong To me, you're not in a clear state of mind. And so you go in there to that anxious state Let me figure it out, you know, it's like you just You know, one of my mentors said I never see more clearly by thinking more So that's what I would say is when we're trying to figure it out One we're just not in the state of mind to have some clear thinking about it And then we our brain's like well, yeah, maybe you're broken and maybe it's weird And maybe this works for drew and this works for lily, but it doesn't work for you and maybe this thing from your past. So um It does feel like a dead end because I think it can kind of maybe lead to some rumination and and confusion, um, which might be like, oh, you're never going to recover and The feeling like something is wrong doesn't actually mean that something is wrong That to me that feeling would say my thinking Is it clear right now? But there's nothing wrong like knowing that when we feel like something's wrong It doesn't mean that there is to me I do see it as an invitation just to like leave that thinking alone Because we're designed beautifully to settle and then we settle and then When our mind quiets down our feelings rise and our feelings rise our clarity our intelligence And so if there's something To do or to see or to feel, you know, you'll see it in a clearer mind So that's kind of what I would say. What about you? Yeah 100% I would agree with 100 It's trying to figure it out now Here's where our language changes and I think we both start to work together In the end all of that stuff that lily said is full of gold Yeah, right for sure. Can I agree with every bit of it? But guess what at some point jack and anybody else who's having this problem You have to do a scary thing and that is i'm going to abandon my figuring out because in that moment Figuring out seems very important. It's a safety thing I am just I'm in the state of discomfort and distress right now. How am I? Don't figure it out makes zero sense. It feels risky and dangerous to just leave it be So use the words that lily just gave you to frame that and then at some point You're going to have to take a chance that she's actually right That's the scary part. We don't I do not believe that we get to escape doing the scary part How you get there might be a little softer or not But at some point I don't I have never encountered somebody who heard me say This is how the anxious brain works. Here the chem. Here's the chemistry. Here's the mechanics. Here's the science and they said Oh cool. I feel so wise and I'm good. I'm good in the supermarket now. I've never ever found that What but you know what's funny? I don't think of as a scary thing You know and so a lot of my clients sometimes they just get curious around it But there are some people that it does feel scary like To not do something to me. It was very interesting and I got curious about it. And so it didn't feel scary. It felt Like I was really interested and I think for me when I came in I was at such a Broken I felt so broken that Stopping trying to figure you out and doing less felt like let me try this out. This sounds interesting. What do I have to lose? Then there was definitely times when I did feel scared, you know, I'm not being like, oh my god It was just curious and positive and rainbows. It was like You know, there was times when Driving anxiety was a big thing for me and I remember You know, it was even a year into it Driving somewhere very far and I knew I was going to take all the freeways and it felt scary But I didn't really think about it. But I did say to my sister. We you just chat with me on the phone and But I didn't have all my old think, you know, I didn't do a lot and that that did feel scary a little bit But it also felt okay Okay, should we answer? Yeah another one. No, I appreciate it. I really do and you know what? I appreciate you guys supporting each other in the comments. I'm watching you guys Talk to each other and I dig it. This was one that I want to put up too So I'll take this one at the exposure as well It's not really exposure like I go to a library lately as exposure Tuesday I got a panic attack where where I've been there multiple times No, that's not what I'm saying If you decide to go out and like go to the library because you panic there And you want to see if you can deal with that and you don't panic then enjoy your book That's okay That it's not a failed exposure. We always want to remember that people get Stuck in like, oh, well the library is going to the library is my exposure today No, I don't care where you go. I don't care what you do. I don't care the context I care that you get triggered So if that that's the exposure like for somebody like me, we want you to go get triggered You know now we may differ in what we think I'm going to call an exposure Or I might say just go do a life thing if that triggers cool But it doesn't matter if you didn't get triggered that day There's a there's a hundred million variables that we will never nail down That explains why today you didn't and tomorrow you do But it's not a failed exposure. It just means today today wasn't triggered. Okay, cool But what can I take from that? I could take that the library is actually not the problem, is it? It's the triggered state. That's the problem. Hopefully that clears that up But you don't have anything you want to add to that No, I like it. I just think, you know, to me, it's all so interesting It's like, oh, it's so interesting that you would use the words you'd want someone to get triggered You know, but it's funny when I've actually asked some clients. Oh, what is your goal? You know, and somebody said I want to go To dinner is a specific restaurant. I want to go there feel a little bit of anxiety And then have it be okay. And I thought that's so interesting that she's like she didn't say I want to go to the restaurant have no anxiety. And so to me her words were were I want to get triggered You know in your language and be okay with it. And it was like I've actually had more people that What their ultimate goal is just to be free in their life and I think of my life But what they've said is is that you know, and it's interesting and it would just be different language But I think they but but how cool is it that you get to go somewhere and sometimes you don't feel triggered or my words Or you just don't feel anxious. Um, but knowing But you have to be willing to people say do I have to be do I have to panic to get better? No, but you have to be willing to and if you're willing to because you're curious Right because you don't you can't you don't get the guarantee Like well, here's a technique that I used in special words. That means I won't ever panic or feel anxious No, like I have to be willing to maybe I will today. Maybe I won't I don't know but either way I'm going to handle it jack followed up real quick though and I want to mention this Um, maybe one or two more and then I get a boogie, but um, I have tried if I can put it up in here Let me go to the bottom here. Here we go. He said so everybody could see it Um, I have tried giving up on figuring out but instead of seeing results and feeling better I start to feel worse and I end up trying to figure it out again Correct This is where I sound super brutal because the mechanics of that are pretty clear when we look at it in a lab And in a lot of clinical data You are going to feel worse in the moment that you decide to let go and surrender Unless you have a special way to access some like moment of zen and peace that overcomes you because you thought of thing Which is in my experience is very rare or never I've never actually seen that You will feel worse at first because figuring out is the thing that keeps do you think keeps you safe? Right. So if I stop trying to figure it out, I'm doing a thing that I'm I'm abandoning this thing that I believe I've developed a belief I have to do to get out of this. I must solve this problem This is a problem that needs to be solved urgently And if I decide to not solve it, I will probably feel a little bit more scared That's not an indicator that there's a problem though because it's all this whole problem starts when we Take that state and declare it an indicator of an actual danger, which it is not Yeah, very very uncomfortable very It's scary. Yeah. Well, and I also think if we Some of us are in states of chronic anxiety for a long time, you know Like and we can I don't know what he means feeling worse But when I think of it like I had a lot of physical symptoms Like and I had a lot of habits of trying to figure things out and they didn't go away overnight you know and so like You know they just And so I think sometimes people say oh, I tried this and I'm not saying this on jack. I got all like Sorry jack. We're not trying to pick on you. It's not at all. It's a generalizable comment and I appreciate it because yeah so appreciated and I think My physical symptoms and I'm not even sure that's what jack's talking about But there were some and I don't I know that some people are like, oh I don't want it to take months or and there was especially one that I kept checking on that took a year until I realized Oh, I don't need to Because it was this breathing thing I had I I didn't realize it but every day I'd check and see is it here does that mean I'm really recovered and It was all the checking on it too and I think sometimes it just we've been in a state of fight or flight of You know stressing our bodies out That just as sometimes If we are riding a bike and the pedals are going you hop off the bike It just takes a little bit for it to settle Um and so some of it I do think it's like oh, I'm not doing anything wrong It just is I got into a stress response and also a habit of trying to figure things out and Really we can give ourselves a lot more time. Um, sometimes I think having patience and a light attitude to me about that and knowing I know we never feel better. You know to go back and figure it out. It's more just I think like having the courage to Um To keep at it whatever is whatever is feeling good to you. Um But I was just wanting to add it in of It's it's often not like I'm instantly Panic and symptom free I think another way to frame that that I always give people is And this is it's always a hard message to deliver But I don't I don't waver in it because I believe it to be true The primary goal of recovery is not to feel better. That is the happy secondary effect The goal is to learn that even when you don't feel better You don't want to feel that way. I'm not I don't I would prefer not to I would be really happy if it would stop My life would be better if I didn't feel this way. I'm allowed to acknowledge that it's a shitty situation And I don't want to be in it But the measure of success is I've discovered that I don't have to treat how I feel as an emergency Aim at that first The feeling better tends to trail behind you got to aim at the right target If you aim it I do things and then and it stops and it goes away and I start to feel and I feel better in two weeks You will likely end up frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. I think I became more at peace with Like oh exactly. We said like I still had physical symptoms and Um And I would still experience anxiety, but it just didn't be like I just stopped thinking about it trying to stop it as much And then it actually they would just fade away into the background, but they didn't um It didn't miraculously Wasn't a night and day thing of now I feel better one day later Just those experiences that you had repeatedly however way you framed them and got to them build on top of each other and you know At some point you get to the thing where you start to right realize because people will say Oh, well, I just you just don't care. No, you learn that you don't have to care as much as you used to Care to a little less every day just a little just a little Yeah, I learned that I was okay to not care so much or not tend to it so much, but that takes a while man Gotta be patient Yeah, I would love to chill for the rest of the day, but unfortunately I have a call come out in seven minutes I gotta be on thank you lily. I appreciate we'll do more of these. I hope Yes, thank you, drew and if we couldn't answer all your comments, it's I we get it. It's difficult I know everybody is hoping for like specific advice, which is impossible to do in the comment section But we'll we'll try and do another one of these at some point and see yes Yeah, definitely tell the people where they can find you if they don't in case they don't know Yeah, and I give a lot of specific advice, you know if you like my style But I think also like we do have a lot of things that we say the same On instagram i'm at underscore piece from within and I do that's I think probably the best place to find me I love doing q&a's so I often answer questions have a q&a box Um Stuff up there and then there's there's all my links there. I'm on tiktok just at piece from within I love making videos and chatting about this. So Well, he's a good person. I I trust at least so follow along with here if you don't Thanks for hanging out with us guys. I appreciate it. I miss doing youtube lives We'll get back to it at some point when I have a minute to breathe But if you have questions or stuff you can always comment on if you're watching on a replay Ask your questions in the comments I will try to circle back if I got to drag lily into the comments section Maybe I'll try and do that. We'll see but thanks for hanging out. We'll see you guys later on. Thanks. Joe. Bye everybody