 Good evening, everyone. It is a real pleasure to welcome you to tonight's discussion, Reimagining Learning and Research in a Global Crisis in Avery and GSEP Open Forum, co-sponsored by Avery and the Graduate School of Architecture Planning and Preservation at Columbia. I'm Hannah Bennett, Director of Avery Architectural and Fine Arts Library. Joining me, Ardina Malandras of GSEP, Atea Korakwala, Assistant Professor in GSEP's Doctoral Program in Architecture, Charlotte Caldwell, currently a doctoral student and a Provost Diversity Fellow studying the history and theory of architecture at Columbia. Charlotte's research focuses broadly on 19th century American architecture through a vernacular architectural perspective. And finally, Kate Campbell, Hailing from a small town in Ontario, Canada, Kate is a scholar, maker and curatorial thinker. A recent graduate of the CCCP program, the Critical Curatorial and Conceptual Practice is an architecture program. She is currently working on Wedging Forward, a community play arts program for formerly incarcerated persons, developed as part of her master's thesis. Kate is now conducting a summer workshop at GSEP exploring the history, the school's history as an institution of higher learning and connection. She's also this year's Campbell Award. Thank you all panelists so much for taking part in this conversation. Before we begin, I'll review this evening's prompt. Over the past year, Columbia swiftly reinvented itself to ensure continued instruction and access to its scholarly resources. Still, safety concerns have led to painful limitations across its various schools, centres and libraries. GSEP reimagines a design studio and fabrication lab as a virtual learning environment. To better serve its core communities, the Avery Library has had to turn away numerous other audiences reliant on its archives or materials and research collections. Just as many public archives and research collections shuttered themselves to all. These constrictions have necessitated new approaches to design, research and documentary methodologies, which are simultaneously being challenged by growing awareness of structural biases and exclusionary practice. To start, each panelist will have about five or six minutes to quickly offer from their distinct perspectives as academic administrators, library administrators, educators and students, the challenges the pandemic has brought and especially what they hope to return to and what they see as a potential positive change in research and teaching. Then we will discuss a series of questions among the panelists. And then following that, we'll open up the floor to all participant, and everyone's encouraged to engage in the dialogue through the Q and A chat. Our prompts, our questions are intentionally general so that everyone will be able to bring in any number of perspective or ideas. The program is intended to last around an hour and a half. So not in some, some invites, it's at 9 p.m. It's not lasting till 9 p.m. So I will, I will ask Amal to begin, Dean Andreos, to share her thoughts about the past year in relation to teaching and learning. Thank you, Hannah. And thank you for suggesting this, this panel. I love the fact that we have a really interesting cross section here on the screen of, you know, scholars and practitioners of different levels who are passionate about libraries. And so I thought I, you know, two things for me, first, I think for GESAP, we always think of ourselves as completely connected to Avery in a way that is visceral. I mean, we're above it, we're below it. You know, it's really at the core physically and also intellectually. And at the same time, it's this kind of reference that we're constantly trying to transform, push back, open up, you know, add new things. You know, it's incredibly present. And so I think that when that core was closed, you know, one of the first closures with the pandemic, it really sort of signaled what was to come, which is this sort of unbelievable dispersal of everybody sort of in the sense of isolation, disconnection and, and, and I mean, the library being not only a place of research, but a place of encounter, serendipity, you know, surprise, you know, community in an odd way, right? Cause it's also, I mean, intimidating, especially Avery and has this kind of, you know, something, something was lost. But I also, you know, as a practitioner, actually we've done quite a few libraries and we're currently working on a library in Boulder, Colorado and a library in Dumba, which will open in September. And, you know, it's been incredible to see how important public libraries. I mean, I was at OMA in the days of Seattle where everybody was predicting the death of the book. And of course the book never died. And, and you know, the, the, the virtual qualities of the e-book never replaced the physicality of the book. But more importantly, it was a moment where public libraries became so much more than just spaces of research. They really became places for a very, very wide range of community members to kind of find a place to, to come in, to learn in second language, sometimes to use the bathrooms. I mean, it's amazing that libraries are still, you know, that kind of spaces of higher education and learning, but also still providing a time shelter. You know, there's so very, very few architectural sort of typologies that can still span that cross-section. So, and the fact that now libraries, public libraries are spaces where vaccines are being provided and, you know, it just shows the central role of libraries and public libraries and still in American society and elsewhere, which is, you know, incredible privilege. I think that not many countries have. So, you know, so the kind of, it's just, it's an amazing time to both recognize the importance of libraries, both in universities and outside and also kind of take stock of what was lost and what was gained through the lens, I think, of the library. Thank you very much, Ateya. Hi, everyone. Thank you, Hannah, for putting this together. I look forward to all of the things that we're going to talk about today. Thank you, Mal. That was a great way to kind of enter this discussion. You know, I've been thinking about what libraries, but not one libraries have meant, but also what librarians have meant to all of us, you know, in putting together syllabi and in putting together our own bibliographies and our research in helping us structure our research. And I think that's been one of the things that is perhaps one of the ways in which I could sort of talk about what this last year, more than a year now has meant, because one of first librarians really helped in making sure things were available when putting together a syllabi because there was a moment there where I just couldn't even imagine how to bring new material to syllabi, how to sort of put together ways for students to access things that would otherwise be put on reserve or something like that. And so I think in terms of teaching, what happened in this last year was that it really challenged me to maybe reconsider how students are, what ways they're kind of taking in information from the world. And I think the library became a way to kind of give access to, you know, even things like podcasts that were sometimes behind paywalls and books that, I mean, I don't know if this is, but books that were just brand new that we could suddenly have multiple copies of that because we could have them via the kind of licensing system instead of having a physical copy. And so I just wanna say that it's been it's been challenging in that sense in an interesting way to transform syllabi in, and it will be interesting to see how this kind of continues over the next few semesters up. What was wonderful is that because we had more access to primary material online, we could even put that on syllabi. On the other hand, of course, research and writing have different challenges. And also helping students to research. And of course, I have some more things to say about this as we continue this conversation, but I think what one way to kind of introduce at least the way I've been thinking about it is how do you instead of expecting students to sort of creatively reimagine everything just also find a way to do research more slowly because you really want them to be able to research the things they want to research and not just research things that are available. And I think that became one of the things that required all of us to develop new skills to just help students get through those kinds of things. I'll maybe pause now and have a talk more about things in the rest of the conversation. Yeah, thank you very much, Haya. Charlotte. Thank you so much for bringing this together, Hannah. And I'm so grateful that we're having this conversation together. When I'm thinking about just the pandemic, there are just so many privileges and then missed opportunities and then hardships that came about with it and are really very much dependent on people's location and their locality. It's unfortunate that we lost the library experience as itself and not just doing research but the activity in the library. I remember saying at my carol and then being able to have the books that I would want to have having conversations with staff and then also my colleagues, that's all gone. I mean, you can have it to a certain degree but it's not the same. And then we can't even support our libraries the way that we want to. So that experience as somebody who appreciates the library just in general before I even considered going into academia that whole experience of being in the library. And then I'm coming from a relatively privileged situation in terms of access. And a lot of my colleagues during the year of the pandemic couldn't access the resources they would want to and needed in order to work on their dissertation, their exams, I myself, most of my materials for my comprehensive exam were either online and I'm also privileged enough to live not too far away from the University of Pennsylvania so I could take the train and go there and use my alumni card to use the library. And then also having access to books that I had already. Most people didn't have that access which is really unfortunate. And I think the pandemic very much exacerbated this hardship that I don't think other people realize unless you're actually really doing research. And then another thing in terms of teaching I think it brought out good and the bad. The bad being that you lose that experience of being able to teach in class and meeting your students instead of phantoms online. But then also I commend the Laurierians because this is why we need them. Mateo, you said this, is that right when it hit Avery had a repository of how to use the library remotely and I very much appreciated that. I made something that I call the COVID packet for my master's students for the architectural history class I was teaching to show them and it actually I think forced them in a good way to start to use resources that they probably wouldn't have used otherwise because of the situation. Forcing them in a good way out of their comfort zone to use these resources that have always been there but then now they have to think out of the box and become better researchers, better students not that they weren't before but using these new resources or unused resources to continue their projects. But then also fully realizing that not everybody can easily access these materials not everybody has access to good or reliable internet. Some people probably had to buy a better computer. Some people have to stay up really late or get up really early in order to come to class or even have an appointment. So all of those things I think also forced me to be a lot more patient and accepting of the situation. I mean, I think we've all gotten to that point where we accept that this is Zoom life and things happen, they just do. But in the relative sense, I think we all worked with each other to get through it. And then one more thing, and then I'll stop talking so Kate can talk. I think just in terms of networking and working with your colleagues, Zoom and just having everything online made it easier to see people around the world. But then unfortunately, like I said, where you lose the living experience with the library, you lose the living experience with the classroom, you lose that when you can't be in the same room with your colleagues. And then discuss research, you have to set up a time. There's never this informality of walking into a space and then just talking about your work unless you live near your colleagues. I unfortunately do not. So that is just one of those things that I think if someday we can work around the pandemic and get to some sense of normalcy, we can get back to or maybe we just get used to this new norm. I guess this is something we'll talk about more but that's just one of the questions that is plugging me basically in terms of this new life that we have. Thank you. Thanks for that. Kate. Hi, thank you so much everybody so far. Before I get into things, just wanted to like congratulate my graduating class at Columbia, at GSAP and kind of around the world, which of course, you know, brings me to the point it's such an astounding time to graduate or to go through any sort of like formal education system of education or even informal system of education. Thinking through this kind of as a difficult time, I think I was thinking a lot about this kind of the language about responding to this present moment which is very common. And I think, you know, I started thinking about, okay, well, who responding to whose moment and then, you know, who's responsibility is it in terms of visit the institutions? Is it the students? Is it the faculty to kind of like step up in such like a time of change and great shift? And then I guess, which brings me to the kind of final point it's like, how do we work together? I think that for me, that's been the biggest thing is that because maybe archives weren't certain what orange is available or the physical library space wasn't available. It was really about like making connections and building networks within the institution, within the library and then within the community as Hannah mentioned in her introduction for my thesis, I developed a community project. And so much of that relied upon the fact that I was able to work through networks like the library. And I connected with people in the New York Public Library system as well to kind of get the word out and really best, again, connect people and connect resources to ideas. And I think the thing that I think about, one of the things I think about most is the fact that we've been able to connect with people all around the world. I mean, I have developed friendship with people in South Africa all across the country, people in Canada that I never would have, like Canadians here in the United States, I never would have been able to connect with. So I think that it's been a very safe time and a very, a time as someone said in a moment of pause, a moment of patience, a moment of peace to kind of really dig into yourself and find out those people that you wanna connect with and those networks and find out what's important to you and how to use the networks that we are developing and the people that we're working with. And more directly speaking to the pandemic, I think that for me, so much about is again, this intersection, is the intersection of the present moment, this change, what resources are really are important to me when nothing is really available. Admittedly, I did not use some of the electronic resources as well as I probably should have throughout the pandemic. And I think, again, for me, it was an opportunity to look within myself and to kind of connect with maybe some physical materials and really, it's about like emailing artists, directly emailing artists, Nicole Fleetwood in her show, that's when she's been a huge help with my work, directly emailing the authors, connecting people by email, just kind of like putting yourself out there. I think that that's been one of the most important lessons and having groups like the library and GSEP administration kind of behind you when you're doing these things has been, it's how it works. So yeah, thank you. That's really wonderful. Thank you. I'll just share a few thoughts of my own in getting everything accomplished that we could in this last 15 or 16 months. As you all know, in February, we found out about the pandemic, it was in full swing. And then all of a sudden the library system had to reinvent itself in March. So we had a very short period of time to really react swiftly with being very mindful of what a campus closure will mean for graduate students, for in-person teaching and for access to pivotal resources. I made the, some might say the iconoclastic move to begin circulating part of Avery's collection for the fall semester. So we did have the spring semester to gear up for this. And this was a difficult choice, but my feeling was if we don't make our collections for those available, for those who are on campus or on site, if now's not the time to make these things a little more accessible when is the right time. So that was a really difficult decision. I know for the curators in Avery, it was very hard to figure out quickly how to move instruction and access to our archives online. And we've experimented with the number of different approaches where we're providing online, on-demand kind of scanning. We're working with faculty with new online instruction and so on and so forth. But it was really, really painful to kind of really, really sort of shorten or reduce quite quickly the kinds of services our special collections served. And this certainly impacted our immediate communities, but most certainly our international communities that have come to use a lot of our special collections. So there was a real hardship expressed among our international constituencies to this immediate closure and problematic access for non-ophiliates. Nevertheless, I think what we've seen is a real swift response on the part of the libraries as we're kind of making things up as we go along. We work very closely in online instruction and online reference to get people what they needed. The libraries of course embarked in this program called the Hathi Emergency Temporary Access Service, which made close to 3 million volumes available digitally that wouldn't have been available normally. So we really kind of hustled and I just applaud my colleagues across the library system for getting things done in such a professional and comprehensive way. So as I think about the last year and a half, one of the things that's been a real challenge for me is I haven't been able to really connect with students and faculty the way one normally would have with campus in full normal swing and classes in full normal swing. So in building my own sense of community with our constituencies, it's largely been online and through kinds of sometimes panicked questions and sometimes real interesting points of engagement. So what I'd like to reflect on, I think, and certainly we can carry on about this throughout the conversation is this new kind of community. We're both, we're coming out of a collective trauma where we're re-aligning ourselves with resources that weren't available to us before the pandemic. And in some ways, we're completely resetting our traditional relationships with one another. And I'm really excited to explore that. And yeah, and here we are now thinking about reopening the libraries, bringing everyone back and doing this all in a safe and meaningful way. So those are some of my initial thoughts. I guess I'll launch into a question and I'll invite the panelists to volunteer some responses and reflections. This is kind of building on what we've already talked about. We've talked about our experience through the pandemic and the sort of immediate impressions and ramifications. But one of the things I was, one of the things I'd love for you all to share a little bit more about is what, certainly your research, but what other things that are voles or ambitions were prevented or sidelined by the pandemic and what pre-pandemic challenges remain? Well, maybe one question I have for you is that it seemed to me, at least at Avery, that before the pandemic and certainly under Carol Ann's directorship, there was a real emphasis on what is an archive? What is an architectural archive? What is the future of archives, digital archives? How do we, you know, and then kind of obsession with that? I mean, I don't mean it so negatively, but you know, and you and I have spoken about the question of equity, you know, who are the architects who are able to organize their own archive before they either donated, you know, this is sort of this whole digital realm. And in, so this as a kind of big question mark, what is an original drawing? What is, you know, there's a lot of kind of authorship issues around that, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm thinking about the CCA and the exhibition that they, you know, the question of the digital. And then in relation, I think to issues of equity in terms of, for me, you know, who gets to curate, you know, even think about these things. And then in contrast, what you described is that the pandemic forced or invited a very welcome urgent access to all, right? We're going to scan, scan, scan. We're going to, you know, increase access. We're going to, you know, and so maybe I'm wondering about whether it went from a kind of, I'm thinking, you know, Frank Lloyd Wright, you know, drawings coming in and then this sort of the pandemic and what it leaves us with, which is, you know, what is gained and what is lost, do we, do you, you know, kind of reassess through, you know, through that lens of access and sort of privilege, let's say, which, you know, Charlotte was already talking about in terms of, you know, physical access, you know, does it kind of reorient a little bit the priorities of libraries and universities, for example? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And I think one of the sort of challenges, it's not a new challenge, but it's a fairly recent one for archives within libraries. Well, archives in general, architectural archives is acquiring more of the digital and preserving it and making it accessible years from now. And that's a real challenge for the profession and we're still struggling with how to do this in a way that, you know, is in perpetuity. But a lot of these particular kinds of collections are from places that have the means to organize and design with technologies that are pretty advanced and, you know, are doing really interesting things that, you know, technologies like AR and VR possibly and, you know, all of these sorts of immersive experiences and that alone poses a huge challenge to us regardless of the pandemic. What the pandemic I think offers archives now is a new way to partner with different kinds of, different kinds of architectural firms. And that's not to say we needed the pandemic to do this but I think as we think about equity and, you know, inclusivity and diversity not just in terms of voices but in terms of kinds of projects and kinds of geographies represented in the archives. We have the means to pursue these sorts of partnerships with different kinds of firms, designers and scholars that might, you know, perhaps redefine some of the components of an architectural archive. As we've discussed in planning for this, you know, my experience with some of these bigger architectural firms is not so much donating collections in this day and age but selling collections to universities that can afford them basically. And not all architects can put them, I mean, I'm not an architect, I don't wanna speak out of turn but, you know not every firm has the means to connect with big universities like Columbia. And so what we, what I would love to see happen post pandemic is changing the kinds of discussions we have and finding new kinds of targets for our collections. And as we talked and I wanna hear Kate and Charlotte jumped in about this too is redefining what is a gap in an archive is it something that we just traditionally have never collected because of format or scope or is it something that falls outside of what we've, you know, is it just something that changes the way in which we curate archives altogether of like these new sorts of partnerships? So I guess this is all just to say that Columbia, Avery has a real responsibility to uncover some of these perhaps smaller archives, perhaps novel archives, perhaps archives put in digital ephemeral formats and really kind of, I think be on this sort of threshold of re, you know, reconstituting a conversation if that makes sense. Right, and I think, you know in terms of inequity and just who has access to what you know, there are some libraries and archives that wouldn't even be able to afford to buy collections. And then it would just, you know Avery library has privileges and resources that other libraries don't have, but that's relative. And I think there had, I think in a certain sense it's gotten us to appreciate these sources and then possibly to find ways to keep them open and it's not like they were going to close but to add to their legitimacy. I guess they're cultural capital. I don't think people realize some things useful until it's almost gone or gone. And not that every library would disappear but other ones might because of the situation. I think it's also good. Hannah, when you mentioned this before like different types of material that's archive in different types of ways and then how these gaps because the gaps don't necessarily have to be oh, finding historically marginalized architects but maybe they're architects that, you know, relate to issues of class, gender you know, all these things intersect with each other they're really important so they're not all siloed or even different ways of formatting so that you can see architectural collections in different ways or even a hybrid situation which we had before but I think now since it's so part of our everyday lexicon that I feel like people can shift their brains and they're thinking, okay, I can look at the physical and I can also look at the digital and see them and compare them but yeah, I think what's really important to me is just the fact that we have to appreciate these things and preserve them and it's just a scary moment that these places can close and that we can't get to them and we can't support them but, you know, just adding to that cultural capital and importance of why we have libraries and why we have archives and other for everybody that access like you don't have to be a researcher you don't have to be a PhD student you can use the library and just learn so and I think everybody just figuring out different ways to have access to these materials and then also how to reformat them will bring different people it might be wishful thinking thinking this because people have different associations and relationships with libraries and archives but I do believe it would make these spaces more accessible to people Oh, Caitlin, I'll be quick so one of the things I was thinking is of course, you know these things that one brings to archives the final destination of that is not the archive, right? The archive is a place from which you access them again and you know, on the one hand it poses immense challenges digitally because you need to have them at high resolution but also at low resolution you need to have metadata on it you need to have these objects need some way to be found and the ways in which we find these objects are multiple like somebody needs to also research that object so that another person can put that into a lecture like how does something from an archive end up in an article in an essay and finally in a lecture like in a way a lecture tends to be the last place it ends up in because when one is putting together a lecture you really need material on the object you can't just have the object alone so it has to be researched so that it can go into that lecture so I think this huge challenge is posed in terms of how do we make these objects speak? What is it that we can, how do we make them accessible so in ways that they are actually legible or so that they can actually circulate in ways that are meaningful and not just as images of themselves and I think that there are just so many questions around that but I know that there are some repositories where you have to be within the physical space to even access it digitally and that's important because for whoever may have donated that collection or however the rights around those things are structured mean that you can't just access it just because it exists and so I think on the one hand it requires us to have historical and intellectual literacy but it also requires us to have kind of copyright literacy and it also requires us to have certain kinds of digital literacy and so suddenly the space of the archive becomes a place to learn so many more things than the thing you may have originally gone into see and I think that that poses some real challenges to us moving forward in terms of how we even understand what it means to do archival research in terms of accessing material. I think that that's a really good place for me to kind of follow up of responding specifically to your prompt Hannah about the kind of these kind of gaps in the archive. I think very much about two kind of arenas of thought the first one is connected to Charlotte's points about historically marginalized voices. I think very much so bodies and I think about typology so I think of course as she mentioned so it's not just maybe about like by pocket could be female and I bought non-binary it could be different emerging artists or practitioners international. I think one of the biggest things is again talking about this opportunity has made us exposed to so many different people internationally and around the globe and kind of taking an opportunity and I think that when we think about these gaps in the archives and hear these voices that may have been missing or are missing I think it's an opportunity to think well why do they exist and who do they serve when these gaps were created? Who do they serve? Well in many circumstances they serve the institutions and who hold these archives because a lot of their history some of their histories are not something that they want to make public or archives. And I mean it's not even specifically talking about Avery or Columbia it's just different institutional archives in general. I mean we're talking about museum spaces as well. And I think the second point I really think about is kind of typologies and what really qualifies or quantifies or constitutes an archive over the process of doing a lot of research for my workshop and then as well for my thesis I found out many different kinds of forms of archives that exist here at the very institution so a great example of that is the Zine Library at Barnard College. It's one of the oldest Zine archives in the world started in 2011 and so you know just kind of like developing the an understanding of okay so like what information is really kind of deemed as is high of a high value or educational and who can use this and who has access to this information. The other thing I think about is different forms of oral history projects or visual photographic projects that have come up or even I mean this very room that we're in right now is an archive right in terms of like when we all signed in we all had to say like we're recording this. So this is archived on YouTube and understanding that over the past year where there's been so many amazing conversations just at GSAP alone the different events and different people have come in and just even just within GSAP students as well very different advocacy roles. I think that it's just it's amazing if we think about kind of how an archive can expand and how this you know the era of the pandemic in this moment has at least for me specifically and I think maybe a number of people that I work with directly who understand an archive in very different ways because they've had to because they don't have access to those physical archives or they don't have access to those conversations that would lead them to our specific archives or those different institutions. So yeah, I think that that's kind of drafted up. Thank you so much. No, no, that's those are wonderful points. Thank you all. What I think, you know, this exposes and as I think about, you know, libraries and archives and so much needs to be put online not just because of ease of access for those that have access but also for preservation purposes as well. It puts a real demand on the technology in the way in which these sorts of materials are made accessible. It's something that's been a challenge for even just normal online platforms serving straight up full text articles and dissertations and whatnot but as the objects themselves become more complex and the question of how to discover them is even more pressing. The technology behind all of this really comes into question and that's I think going to be a huge challenge not just for libraries but for people that, you know organize this kind of content and make it accessible even through commercial platforms. So it's going to be an interesting challenge and it gets to what you were saying, Atea which is, you know, discovering the online object in a way that's meaningful and relevant and perhaps serendipitous but you know, what does that look like and is it a consortial kind of field where we're blending archives together we're using linked data to make connections for people. These are all sorts of ethical questions about superimposing intent through technology but also supporting the collections through technology which is super, super important. So anyway, thank you all that's really, really, really interesting. I would just also say that in terms of the challenges that will wait for us after the pandemic is sort of a larger field challenge and what I've experienced just as an observer but also a participant and as a colleague to folks in cultural heritage institutions and museum libraries and other kinds of collections is a vulnerability of these institutions just because of economic challenges pre and post pandemic and sadly, you know, Columbia is privileged in that this isn't as much of an issue for our history departments or classics departments but we've seen lots of higher ed institutions dispersing of these programs because of the solvency issues and maintaining them. So I think there's also going to be even more of an imperative to put finer points and more immediacy and relevancy in terms of how we capture scholarly expression in libraries and where we identify it because it is tied to also production. You know, if scholars aren't able to, you know specialize in a particular area because of economic constraints at their particular institution that has its own kind of problem in terms of voices in the fields. And so these are things that are definitely at the forefront of my mind and you know, things that we think about in terms of maintaining the way in which we collect materials. So it's kind of a, it's not the happiest kind of challenge but it's a very real one. And for those of you guys going into the field now or about to and thinking about, you know the curricular planning, I'm just curious how you thought about some of this? Yeah, I think this sort of reminds me of something Kate said earlier in terms of amplifying voices and then the fact that certain strains on the archive can have a huge impact on the researcher but also reminds me of some of our planning sessions where we're talking about language and translation. You know, I mean, for myself most of my material is in English but I'm also a native speaker of English. So that's my relative privilege in that situation but somebody who's coming from the outside using these materials, they might be their second language but then also how do they if they wanna do a project where the materials are not in a certain language and if they're not in the archive you have to plan around that and that could cycle research that could stop you from looking at a certain topic because of the translation issues but then also translation, the meaning changes once it goes from one language to another. So how do we, I don't know maybe this could be a question we could talk about or not but how do we access these materials or how do we acquire these materials so that there are different voices in different languages from different regions but then also you don't want to extract materials from their regional context where they probably belong in the first place. So there are all these different situations of access that make this whole phenomenon complicated because you want your students to reach out and look at different materials but how can they do that if they don't know the language how can you teach it if you don't know the language? I know that's like an issue myself with some classes because I would like to teach about other places but I don't necessarily know how to get those materials or can read those materials but how can libraries and archives maybe assist in terms of translation to help with those materials and make them more accessible? I think it's a really good place to jump in. I think for me it's very one of the things that's really astonished is the different reading lists that have come out of kind of the various moments of institutional change. And I guess the libraries are fundamental in helping to form these things in terms of and again, it's not specifically within kind of maybe cultural reading lists. They're also very much like focused on kind of architectural history, expand architectural histories or talking about different forms of different animal life. I just think that this has been a very good time for people to kind of return to these like collective forms of communications kind of like salon style, even though we're all not in like a cool space, we're on Zoom. I think I was really kind of taken by your terms, the like the scholarly expression in terms of like different ways to kind of navigate this. And then I thought about a lot of different forms of teachings that have happened over the year. You know, I mean basically starting in the last year and the different kind of conversations that have happened. And the fact that having an institution like A&Ri, like G-SOP around us as kind of budding scholars has kind of formed, has like allowed us to form maybe more advanced discussions and we would be able to have elsewhere or in different channels. And so I think that it's been a very good time to kind of, I guess going back to what I said or like, what does scholarly expression look like? What do kind of these different exchanges of voices? And how does that function? Yeah, I think that's really interesting actually, Kate. I love that it's true. The change came through reading lists. It's like, here, you know, here's another list and here's another list and here's another archive. And, you know, so which was kind of central to, you know, all these conversations. But I also was, you know, in Hannah in the title of the event is a question of partnerships and the question of partnerships came up quite a bit. Like, who does one partner with? What are typical partnerships for institutions? What, you know, what other libraries, you know, does every partner with and speaking to the question of the gap or not extracting and preserving or, you know, or supporting, I think it's a very interesting time to rethink one's partnerships. And, you know, what is the two way exchange and who's on the other way of that two way and where is that smaller institution or, you know, situated, you know, I think in a way this would be the gain. I think, Kate, you were referring to like with the click, you know, you're suddenly in Johannesburg or in Addis Ababa or, you know, anywhere. And so that click, you know, could be made more institutional through kind of new forms of partnerships and ally ships for kind of libraries in a way. I'm thinking also, I mean, even institutions like the Met are like, you know, rethinking, you know, in a timely, you know, the objects, right? There's a different kind of object but the objects that are in their galleries and how do you both create an archive of quote unquote, global knowledge but recognize that this is the result of conflict and extraction and, you know, processes that are really questionable. And yet these objects can tell so much. So it's just a very interesting time to rethink these practices. Yeah, one of the things that I was thinking about when, you know, from some of the questions that Hannah has put together was all of the labor that goes into scanning things across the world. And a lot of this labor, you know, you still can't access it easily. You can't access the material because it still requires you to be part of some sort of institutional network to be able to get to things. But then on the other side of that, you know, one of the things that Charlotte said sort of made me think about was that at some level we also always, like I didn't ever see myself as a collector of material when I was, you know, in the early years of my education but over the years one collects things that one doesn't realize will not necessarily be available later on, you know, we sort of on one hand we inhabit this kind of space of Google books and Amazon where you can get whatever you want at any time. But on the other hand, there are still things like, you know, well, Zines is one example but there's pamphlets and things that really do disappear. And in a way, how do we balance this thing where people who have platforms, you know, like the platforms we're speaking from were heard a lot. And then on the other hand, there's people who speak in other languages and who have access to all of these objects and who have been collecting them for years. How do we hear those voices as well? And so there's, you know, I think that goes to one of the themes that's been being talked about here today that Amal that you mentioned as well which is partnering not just with, you know, the big institutions but also seeing each of us as part of this network and as having collections that we've been slowly putting together over the years and that these sort of give us ways to access ideas and information. And then in that way, when we bring the people who do this collecting on, it's somewhat less extractive in a sense, I don't know, maybe that's not correct. There's always that element of extraction but at least there's, I hope that, you know, that also brings the kind of individuals back into the network. Yeah, thank you. I think one of the pieces, what you were just saying that's what that brings to mind is as we put more and more online digitally of course and curate that new kind of engagement, there is still physical production obviously and that kind of access is very, very different but what I've been finding in the arts and humanities is that print production is becoming, even among trade publications and even not so much university presses but certainly all kinds of trade publications from Lars Mueller to Tash and, you know, to all of these different kinds of publishers, they're putting in a new kind of artistic intent into the production of an actual volume and this is not to say that, you know, all of a sudden Rutledge is now in the artist book business, they're not at all but it's an important component and I'm seeing it more with smaller presses and, you know, these very sort of short run, interesting kinds of format, their own kind of scholarly slash design expressions and I really wanna figure out a way to make that kind of experience accessible to people that may not be able to visit the actual object and engage with it in ways and how does that happen? 3D scanning, probably not but, you know, some way through maybe cataloging through ethical cataloging, through description, you know, or sort of through digital description unlocking this sort of this physical intent which, you know, is so important to some of these productions and, you know, after all, like, imagine if we were just tossing an archigrams back in the 60s, all of that interesting content would have been lost as seen as, you know, just silly ephemeral things we don't need to hang on to. So I think this just reinforces what you all were saying about these different kinds of publications and the different kinds of collections that can really help distinguish us while supporting, you know, these marginal voices or new kinds of scholarly inquiries. So that's all very, very interesting. Thank you for your thoughts on that. But, Hannah, I love the idea of 3D scanning. If you had to enter into a virtual room and you had to, I mean, it's a bit cheesy but if it's really well done, right? And you had this kind of, and you're like, that's a really nice idea. I see, it's a design studio theme. I just have a couple more, one more question and then we can open it up to Q&A, you know, this whole period, you know, was also the context for a new consciousness, especially for white and privileged people regarding structural racism across all facets of society. In this context, how can we articulate an ethics of teaching and research in library building centered on broadening access and inclusion? And, you know, I will say just as a personal note, thinking about all of what's been going on in the world, it's really challenged how we find meaning in our immediate work. And so I just wanna thank you all for helping me think through some of this because it really helps kind of refocus and realign in white and in my thinking. So I'd love some thoughts about some of this. Echoing Hannah, definitely in terms of like, so appreciative of this conversation because it has allowed me to think about the archive, the institution, kind of again, maybe these gaps and maybe also like opportunities and also ways that like the library has and different form, different library systems have kind of like stepped up the blade without, you know, that in its most basic terms to kind of support their students in the safest possible ways that they can. I think that, you know, when we think about the future and how this kind of, how the shift, how the shift, the kind of period of shift, I think that the idea is kind of the incident, it has to come from places like the library, like ultimately, of course, you know, increasing student voices is very important. And, you know, having maybe different expanded studios and different conversations, but at the end of the day, like it has to come from like the places where the funding's coming from or whether like the research grants are coming from or the various kind of like sources of ideas that are kind of being produced and as well as kind of tapping into different things like the alumni. I mean, GSEP has such like a wealth and rich diverse group of alumni. And I think that kind of revisiting those voices in terms of, and I think that's a lot about what I've been working towards in this workshop that I've been giving the opportunity. Thank you again, Amel. But just this opportunity to kind of meet with people, discuss people who've like helped to build the institution and kind of understand, well, like I didn't understand that there's such a diverse African American community and really kind of what does African American community look like in a place like GSEP? And I think that it's really kind of helpless to kind of push the boundaries of our understanding for that. And then just to kind of close, I think the experiences also kind of pushed us to like think more consciously about like each other and be more thoughtful in our practices in our everyday lives and in our kind of like, in our writing, in our kind of one-on-one conversations. I think that that's kind of something that's been lacking, you know, aside like adjacent from the institutional changes that has to happen, but also has to like, has a change in like compassion, how we kind of carry ourselves, how we interact with like, you know, our peers, how we interact with our faculty, how we interact with the institution. We can see more of these kind of connections and more of an intersection versus kind of a hierarchy. And I think that we need to see that also more, like we need to model that in our institution so that we can see this kind of in a larger frame or globally in our governments. And Sam, thank you. Some of this sort of reminds me of a conversation we had about highlighting certain pieces of the collection that folks might not know exist, which it goes into one of the good things about representation that if you see yourself in the thing, then you're more inclined to be willing to be part of it. And I know that collections always want to show the best pieces, but then how are the best pieces these agreed upon pieces, but then who are the taste makers and say that these are the best pieces? And then that they change. I mean, in Avery, we have, you know, Frank Lloyd Wright, you know, we have all of these pieces that are on display, but if you go to one archive, I told you all about before, is Mother Bethel AME in Philadelphia. They have a museum about the Fiondera of their church, Richard Allen, and on display there, they have the pews from the original churches. So it's, but then those are the best pieces, some of the best pieces in the archive, but then there is telling a different story that people wouldn't necessarily know is there. Unless you know about that specific history because it's not, it is a national American history, but it's not as well known as other pieces that would be on display in Avery. So how do we take that approach of taking things on and off and put it on rotation? Because I'm not saying that what's up there now is not important because it is, it's just another conversation, different type of, or different engagements with the built environment that are important for education, but then how do we have other things on display? So that when people do walk into the lobby of Avery, it's like, oh, okay, so there are different pieces that I didn't know were here and make it a more dynamic space. Yeah, and I loved also, I mean, time also with Kate and Charlotte and Atéa, you were saying about each one of us is a collector, right? And you could tap into that collection, but also I think in that sense, when the consciousness, I think that Kate is speaking about also is this moment when you're putting together your syllabus and you're realizing why am I, why am I repeating the same voices, right? This kind of moment of saying, okay, well, is there an object there that I need to look for? Or I think this self-consciousness of one's own collection is an amazing, I think that's a very real, amazing moment of kind of change and sort of growing that to what Charlotte is saying, that could we expose more of that, almost a kind of rotation and how to make things more visible or without, it's this kind of tension between over curating and kind of projecting versus I think the need to sometimes kind of overexpose somewhat so that things start to be written about and researched and of course, I shared my dream of like, this should happen in the shared lobby of Avery and Gisa where we could have a kind of exhibition space for some of the material as students walk in or some to kind of reinforce that. But I really love the idea of kind of exposing more and rotating and creating more accidents and encounters. I guess one thing that I was sort of thinking about which kind of goes to sort of this coming year which is that how, what is it going to mean to do research again in a condition of extreme unevenness and inequality, what does it mean for someone who's had access to a vaccine to go into an archive in somewhere in the global south where there is, where other people have not had access but are required to still come to work, I don't know the answers to these but it's been something that's been on my mind given how this kind of, this one new stage that we've come to is unfolding. And I don't know what the answer is but it seems like as we continue with our research it's like there's a tension there, right? On the one hand, we wanna bring all of this material back into our work and talk about it and make sure it doesn't get left out. I mean, there's been years of man hours that of students who've done their master's degrees in the pandemic who haven't been able to research who won't even able to access what has been accessible. And that's just gone, that's gone, right? And on the other hand, we're not out of this yet as a globe, as a world, we're not out of this, you know but New York feels different. And so what is it gonna mean to kind of perform in research in this kind of unevenness both emotionally where you feel like you're through something but the world is not but also ethically. So we just had that thought. That is certainly going to be a challenge. And I know we all are paying very close attention to these open, these town hall forums at the Columbia administrative level telling us about vaccination requirements and masks and what to expect. And I know it's still very, very difficult to come to immediate decisions but I've already heard, you know well, if somebody chooses to wear a mask will they be marginalized and not allowed into a building or I feel like this is in-between period that you're talking about Atea, even very local to Columbia's campus creates some optical problems for people trying to do research in ways that they feel is the best, safest way for them. And it'll be kind of an interesting limbo to clear if you will, but it's going to be a challenge too. I'll say, you know, one of the fun things that has come out of these conversations with you is really rethinking physical spaces in the library in relation to making the spaces accessible, relatable, welcoming. I mean, Columbia's, as you all know the accessing special collections within the libraries has a whole host of rules and regulations. You know, you can bring in food, you have to be quiet. You know, there are all these things that I think to some of the uninitiated, let's just say it would seem incredibly daunting and also very exclusionary. And while we still have to maintain rules to steward our special collections and even our regular collections, it's really wonderful to think about what can we do with our collections and be able to think about what can we do with the Avery spaces that, you know, make them relatable. I mean, I've been talking to our properties curator Roberta Ferrari about pulling things out of our art collection that might make the spaces a little bit more relatable. And there's just so much more to do than just that, but you know, it's, people want to come back. People want to use our spaces. They want to use our physical collections, but I think we also have a real obligation to figure out how to do this in a way that's a little bit less traditional than has been the case. But that's not to say you can, people can check out Frank Lloyd Wright drawings. I was going to ask about that. Well, I want to save a little bit of time for Q and A if there are, if the folks out there, it's like they have one question. So let me see. We've got one from David Hecht here. He writes, earlier in the conversation, as well as now with what Amal, Kate and Chanelette describe, has there been an opportunity in the past year or is there an aspiration going forward to examine the structures of knowledge organization that may themselves be producing quote unquote gaps or keeping certain works out of this repeated display? And he qualifies that a bit more to say, what are the structural aspects of library and archival practice by extension research that lead to the privileging of certain producers and works and the exclusion or diminishment of others and how might awareness of these be integrated into the different practices to mitigate or reverse their impacts? So there's a lot there. Wow. Perhaps I'll punt to Charlotte and Kate and Amal first and that'll give me time to think about my answer. Yeah, I think this is a really good question because we can talk all day about how Avery could go out of their way and not saying that Avery is not doing this but to look at different collections, but it's true because of the nature of the archive. It's a very, even though every human being collects material, the way that to be legitimate as an archive, it has to read a certain way. It has to have certain materials in it and it has to often have somebody who has a library studies degree or a degree in that subject field of whatever the thing is being collected. So which makes sense, but then it goes into situations about where did you receive your education in order to be appropriate for that, to be that curator of that archive. And it also reminds me, well, I'm gonna use methodological example again, but so all of my examples are always still related, but the archivist there was telling me that it's really difficult for her to retain material from the past pastors there because there's often a situation with historically marginalized people, specifically black Americans, that our materials will go to waste if we don't take care of them. So, and that's not to say that that's a feeling or an attitude that's shared across the board because we're not a monolith, people aren't monoliths, but I can see why that is a situation that didn't dawn on me until the archivist who's also African-American said that to me, that this is a situation. So it's how do you talk to people without talking down to them about the fact that their materials are important for everybody to see, but then is it also okay if we lose these materials and then going back to what Kate was saying, lose in the sense of they're not pristinely preserved because being preserved is a very Western attitude that we like to see our history, but it's okay if going back to what Kate was saying in terms of oral narratives about materials that are gone also. So the terminology that we talk about it, talk about these collections, how these collections are made up, yes, they do more or less impose the same structural injustices that are across the board, but then how do we situate ourselves within it and have a nuanced conversation about it, but then realizing that oftentimes we are perpetuating these injustices? I think responding to kind of the second part of the question in terms of rethink about like awareness, for me very much thinking about the fact that it's about like it's our responsibility as students and as researchers, as scholars to kind of, I think bring this to the forefront of these issues. And I think the school is, I think this fall we'll see from GSAP and from other schools as a malpoint expanded syllabi, different reading lists, different kind of really different conversations. And I think it's just really about like, again just awareness, it's about like having those conversations if there's something in your class, in your studio that somebody brings up and highlights that's super problematic, it's about kind of bringing it to the forefront. I think I'm sorry that you can attest to this, we speak a lot about this in BSA. It's unfortunately, it is our responsibility as marginalized people in a lot of these conversations to kind of step up and make people aware of the kind of injustices that exist in the institution, in the archive. So I think that the way to kind of mitigate this is just like the one of the most important is just to have these like frank discussions and to like have them like at the moment. It's not something in terms of like, I think a lot of people kind of like want to go like hide or kind of just like throw something up on social media. I think that this is again, because especially thinking of a pandemic, zoom life, we have the opportunity to send somebody an email and say, something that you said in this class may be very uncomfortable or talking with our peers and saying, we need to kind of address these issues because the language that you're using is just not kosher. So I think that that's for me is one of the most important things is really those connections and really kind of, understanding the consciousness that we, and kind of like the image that we want to portray as a community and as individuals at a place like G-SAP and at Columbia. So. Yeah, I think that's really important. And maybe tying this question, I mean, what strikes me here, it's always the human contact, but also the human brain that's ultimately making the connections, right? I mean, sort of situating oneself in a complex situation. And I wanted to tie this to your question that remained unanswered Hannah about the space of Avery and maybe it's not the space itself, but going back to the librarians and being maybe more present or as kind of active, really visible and actively recognized as crucial in terms of inviting new connections or access is always just a, it's often a person that's not behind a desk, but a person. I mean, I know in public libraries, in the city it's very much about getting the, I mean, the offices that we designed for the Dumbo Library is like, there's not a window because the whole point is then, everybody needs to be on the floor, everybody needs to be part of the community. And so, I don't know, it's just human connection. And I, going back to how important the librarians were in this pandemic, I mean, are, but kind of stepped in. So it's just stepping in of maybe not the library, but also the librarians to make those kinds of connections in an, not always very structured and perfect way, but more of a sort of, oh, did you know about this or did you think about that? Or I think these encounters are so rich because they're just almost like a detail, but it's a crucial detail that then opens a door. Yeah, no, thank you very much. We have, I think we have time for this question. Has the fact that buildings could not be visited increased interest in archive-focused projects? And similarly, will archive, well, will archival resources that were digitized by the time the pandemic started, end up being disproportionately represented in researchers' conclusions in the future. That's really, really, really interesting. I think where we will, I mean, I'm trying to formulate the clear answer here. You know, I guess I'd have to hear from Avery Curators, and I'd also like to hear from, you know, I'd love to see the list of in-process projects in the GSAP PhD program. I mean, what has the pandemic actually hijacked in terms of access and has that refocus created a new area of expertise or a new sort of attention in the scholarship? You know, for us, it's been really interesting since we've been closed, and now that we're only open to Columbia affiliates, you know, as I was saying at the top of the discussion, the real power users of our collections have not been in our spaces. And we've made some of these collections available online digitally, in particular, some of our, frankly, right, digital collections, well, one in particular. But, you know, it's really kind of skewed the use of our collections. And so I wonder what our visiting scholars who would normally be using our Hugh Ferris collection or our VAS trade catalog collection in classics, if they don't have access to this, then what are they doing? So I guess I'm still a little unsure of how people are pivoting in their research, but I know they must be. And there's more to the question, but maybe I'll let others jump in. I had one thought, which is that, you know, which I was thinking about in relation to what Sarah Dreller has asked over here, that, and moreover, they can sometimes get even more suppressed when structural racism and misogyny play a role in decisions about which archival materials are worth digitizing. I think that in my experience, one of the best ways to deal with this is to find ways to support students in their projects, because when they lead with their interests, rather than with material, it's like, oh, go find material, and then write about it, rather start with research questions, start with your interests, and then find ways to get the library to support you. That's been a productive process to sort of balance out some of the structural problems that archives sort of have baked into them, you know? And then that, I think, has been a way to then bring new perspectives that might be able to sort of enter archives against the green. And I think that, I mean, I don't know if we've talked about it here, but it's something you've brought up, Charlotte, in the past, which is, you know, there's that human encounter, that human component that can help you translate the experience of using an archive, but it has to be done so in a way that's incredibly benevolent and can sort of disabuse this stuffy notion that we have rules that are intended to marginalize rather than protect. And it's so easy to take for granted that, well, no, we're just enforcing rules, we're just protecting our collections, but for people that are used to this kind of thing, it can come sometimes seem very, very off-coating and send very problematic messages. I think, thinking through this a little bit, for me, it goes back to this question of like, who's responsibility of the archive and who owns the archive? Like I feel as a user who goes to it or, you know, just graduated, but, you know, is that an institution like Columbia who has such a rich archive? Like I feel like I'm somewhat responsible for the archive because I use it whether it's responsible when I was able to use the archive and physically touch the books and make sure, you know, to wear gloves when I'm using these archive materials to kind of, you know, you thinking through now, who do I share these rich materials with? Who do I let know that there's a gap in this archive? So I think that for me, this is our moment. I think, you know, there's the institution and across multiple scales that had too much responsibility in terms of what belongs in the archive. I think that, you know, as a student, if you think that something is missing in the archive or, you know, we need to like bring in this voice, talk to your librarians, talk to your archivist, trust me, they're always amazing, cool, decent people. And I think that for me, it's just so much more but like we have to do it. You know, like they're going back to the, you know, black people having to always do the work, BIPOC marginalized. Unfortunately, I think in this instance, we do have to do the work because a lot of people don't understand, they don't feel the pain that these gaps in the archive cause, right? Like, I mean, I mean, Charlotte and I have a very different reading of someone who has a different, like cultural background than either of us. So I think it's just very much like, you know, allowing yourself to have a voice and allowing the institution not to be the only voice and kind of not recognizing these maybe, these rigid boundaries that may have existed or may have appeared to have existed. You know, libraries are much more transparent than we would like to, like we give them credit for. Same with the institution. You know, just again, it's like, it's talking to people, it's bringing these issues to light. Like for instance, again, this conversation, this conversation didn't happen a year ago. There's a reason why this conversation is happening now. You know, this is a time to share it with your friends. You know, tell people it's on YouTube, you know, share it with other archivists that these conversations are happening and really kind of get that snowball rolling. I think that that's really the kind of power that we have right now. And it's not kind of looking at the past failures where the institution has not been maybe as accessible or as inclusive as it could have been and really the opportunities of students, of alumni, of faculty to kind of step up and be responsible for the archive ourselves and really building that. So thank you. That was great, Kate. I like it. There's, I think the audience can see the Q and A chat. Is that right? I don't want to read it if everyone can see it. That's right. Yeah, that's what I thought. So we have just a minute or two to reflect on this last comment. Curious what the other panelists have to, what their response might be to some of these questions. Yeah. This is from, we're still talking about Sarah's second comment, right? Yeah, I just wanted to say, well, in terms of trying to make sure that we further don't lose voices because that's something that I am very much concerned about that there's all this fervor to actually go out of our way to make sure that we try to find these voices and or keep and highlight these voices that when the outside pressure goes away, there's no longer a reason to do it. And I think we have to, I like what Atea said about the fact that, and this is very much true while you were saying this that student projects very much because they'll look everywhere at places and they'll be interested in different things. We can, they'll think outside of the box more so sometimes than we do. And we can help guide them in certain directions, but the fact that students are interested in global concerns, but then also local concerns that we wouldn't necessarily think of ourselves because our experiences are different, I think would help in this, but then also disabusing ourselves of certain titles and categories where something is important if there's a famous name that's associated with it or if it's a certain site associated with a certain event. So it's just, why can't it just be something that, okay, it has local significance, but we don't know that maybe the people who are involved are not necessarily famous, but the cultural values are associated with it is something that needs to be preserved. And now I'm talking like a gorilla preservationist now but in terms of we have to disabuse ourselves of the fact that it's the architect or the famous architect or this famous firm. And like I said, it's all well and good to have these things, I'm not saying we throw them out, but the fact that if it's a black architect, does it have to be a famous black architect? Maybe it's a black architect that did a lot of work in the New York area and is just now getting recognition because we should include them. So that's, so different things like that, just getting away from it has to be the best or the first of these things, why can't it be something who's doing something different? I think would prevent. I don't know if it could, it will necessarily eliminate social injustices that suppress these voices because there's a lot more work that we have to do and it has, we all have to be on board to do this. But I think it'll amalgrate some of the issues that are already there. That's a wonderful note to end on. Thank you, Charlotte. Thank you all so very much for having these really engaging conversations and joining me to have a larger forum with some really important stakeholders out there. I really look forward to continuing the conversations. Thanks a lot for helping support this and to Charlotte and Kate and Natalia as well. It's just been an absolute pleasure talking with you all about this. And I just, I'm looking forward to carrying on the conversation. Yes, yes, hopefully not in little boxes or maybe a combination of little boxes and columns. Thank you, Hannah. And so wonderful that you are thinking about all of this and I really feel like as we re-enter every physically, I feel that also the heart of it will be transformed as the library will kind of think about new ways to think about archiving knowledge and supporting new knowledge. So, all right. Yes, Hannah, thank you, everybody. It was just so great to kind of have this opportunity to communicate with like across the board and just thank you so much to entities and panelists looking forward to the future. Likewise, thank you. Okay. Thanks for coming, calling in from Austria, Tea. I hope you can go to bed now. Is that where you are? I am, yeah. Wow. Very nice, very nice. I'm not gonna have breakout sessions, Tea. Thank you. All right, thank you, everyone. Bye.