 Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE with Rob Stretcher, breaking down all the analysis here on day two of three days of coverage. Got a great scenic view here. If you look out, our office today is beautiful. If you look out on the bay there, you can see beautiful Vancouver, place where all the top mines in the Linux Foundation are gathering. It's not a huge event in terms of numbers, but it's all the right people. As they look to the future of open source, it's everything from security, AI, and obviously energy is a huge topic. I've got two great guests here, Dan Brown from LF Energy and Kristoff Velimir, EVP GM of Savoie Fair Linux. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. Energy, global systems have sustainability challenges. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us. So what's the open source mission around energy? Because that's not the first thing I think of. I think of software and supply chain, S-bombs, security, AI, automation, but there's a real angle here on the energy. What's the gist? What's the story? Sure, I could start. Essentially what's happening right now is the entire energy grid systems worldwide are going through a complete transformation. And this is of course being driven, largely by climate change concerns. We have to decarbonize our power systems. It's really the only way that we'll ever meet decarbonization goals that are being set by governments, companies, et cetera. And so it means redesigning systems. Traditionally the way that they worked is you're a power generator, you transmit the power onto a grid then into a distribution grid that powers our homes and businesses. That's easy to manage. If you need more power, you turn up another gas turbine. In the future though, we're going to have distributed energy resources. That's already starting to happen, solar, wind, hydro, et cetera. So instead of this top down, it's just a big jumble. Power's going both directions from everywhere and so it means redesigning the technology that manages these systems. And the best way to do that, we feel is through open source. Yeah, and I think open source is obviously transparency, better security. If you see everything, but this is also industrial IoT angle, which is also software, hardware is software. Yeah, we see that. I mean, there are huge challenges to fight for attending this decarbonization. And I think open source, first of all, you know, it's a way to collaborate. And even in some sector like energy where, which was very much siloed, you know, people need to collaborate. Utilities and vendors and professional services company that fight together to find better solution. And that's why it's a way to speed up. I mean, this innovation because anybody, themselves in their silo, will be able to manage the solution. So that's working together on that. Take us through some of the aspects of the project, the tools involved, because when I hear about, what you just mentioned about this, the energy, the infrastructure, I've heard stories, I've talked to the interview people that have complained. I have a Windows 95 machine running, this OT environment. It's locked down though, we try, well, you sure? It's like, and there's some serious examples of old tech laying around. So there's a modernization aspect. There's a national security aspect. All kinds of efficiency. It seems like a hornet's nest. Am I over-reading this thing? What's the... Maybe it's just because it's a world transition. I mean, you know, all these OT technologies is challenged by the IT now. And we see that if you see the automation, control command, by example, in the substation, in electric transport, you know, they are moving towards to virtualization. So that means replacing black box by new IT technology that will allow virtualization. And that's one of the project, the CPAS project, which is an energy project which has been run, launched by a TSO, RT, the French TSO. And we are working with them and also vendors like G. Schneider are also working on that platform, which will be a standard that will allow virtualization in the substation. So it's really a change of mind of the way they're used to work. And so it doesn't go in one day because we changed the mentality, we have to change the technology, but it's moving forward. There is no way back. So I'm interested because it's a supply and a consumption issue. And just by virtualizing something, you're not getting necessarily consuming less, it all depends. It can be more efficient or it might not be more efficient when you virtualize the substation. Help people understand why is it important to go that direction? I mean, it's a small part of the equation. You know, at the ElephEnergy, Dan could speak about it. There are a lot of project, project that are more related to end users, to direct consumption, to control consumption. The CPAS is really, you know, calling to the hidden work, you know, what's inside the substation. But it's important because, and which is interesting, that the needs come from the utilities. And they want to develop a standard, like a referential design for an open source real-time platform on which vendors and utilities will work together to offer services to run the next control command generation software. That means that it's not only vendors that impose their product to the utilities, but then utilities says, I need that to be more flexible, to be able to integrate the new kind of energy at the edge of the grid with the solar, with the Aeolian. So we need a revolution on that. Is it that they're re-imagining their grids? I know there's work going on. I know there's companies actually out of Boston that are looking at how grids are designed. And there's a lot of work, I guess you could say from the energy side, looking at how the power distribution and how you take in things. And I think Biden, one of the first things he did when he was in office as part of the Infrastructure Act was that requiring the Army, US Army to have EVs on all their bases. And so there's a massive grid issue at all of the US Army bases, for instance. Is this, are they coming to you saying, hey, you guys do distribute it? How can we look at this network of fact and energy and how we control all of that? Is that? Distribution system needs flexibility. And that's what bring on the market virtualization. Like in the telco, past years away. So that's the same way of needs. The flexibility in the substation, that's because the demand, the allocation of resource will need to be evolving. Can you share some of the technologies that's being used? I mean, obviously, we're all open source, big as I would say. Open source always wins. We believe open, and that's true, it has won. Open source is the best way of transparency, but it's open. So if, assume software supply chain is solved, which it will be, it's pretty much will be bulletproof on the grid protection. But as you look to modernize the grids for energy efficiency, what's the open source angle? What code base? I mean, share the software projects, what technologies, you mentioned virtual machines before, is it going to be cloud, is it going to be, it's obviously edge, right? So this is like a great case study of actually some of the edge. No, for sure, if I'm speaking about the CPAS project, I mean, we can't describe it like a best of grid integration solution. We did not reinvent the wheel. I'm explaining the CPAS is real quick for the folks watching. Yeah, sorry. The CPAS, the name of this project, this platform of virtualization. Okay, substation virtualization. Substation virtualization, sorry. Yeah, we do have dozens of other projects as well, so we're talking everything from at the edge of the grid where you're creating a reference architecture for EV charging infrastructure. People who have EVs out there probably have experience trying to plug it in and it doesn't charge. Even though the plug fits, it doesn't work for one reason or another. I was actually going to bring that up. Yeah. Having a hybrid that doesn't plug into certain things is completely frustrating. Exactly, and that's what our Everest project is trying to tackle. That's just, again, one example. We are doing other things. For home automation or business automation with our FlexMeasures project, that can tell you the best time of day to run your washing machine and can actually help do that automatically. So that maybe it's better in the middle of the night. Maybe it's better in the middle of the day because the sun's shining and you have solar panels. But all of this has an impact. It's small. It's huge. It's a huge impact. But they add up. Who's organizing all this? You guys are because this is like, I mean, I see this is like an awakening for me because I had no idea the depth of investment in this area. Yeah, Linux Foundation Energy, we have 60-some members at this point. It's a good mix. We have your traditional power utilities for a start. They have to be involved in our nutritional vendors, like GE, to that industry. But we also have research organizations, academia, government is involved. Are there mandates involved? Do you guys, is more proactive action going on? Or what's the balance between, hey, here's a regulation versus community growth, top-down, bottom-up kind of approach. What's the balance between regulation, top-down, bottom-up, community? That's a good question. That's a mix. You know, and some, you're up in some ways is probably a little bit more ahead. We do consult occasionally with the EU Commission on some of these topics when they're considering regulatory guidelines around redesigning power grids and that sort of thing. But all governments are thinking about it. But a lot of this is being driven by industry. Yes, and I will really present the left energy like a framework of collaboration and innovation. I mean, that's the place through, you know, the history of the Linux Foundation, the governance of the project, where industries or vendors can bring projects, put them under the governance and, you know, build the innovation around with other actors. It's a huge mission. I mean, if you think about, if you can get this modernized with open source, think about what happens next, all the AI conversation comes in. Hey, I can have an app on my phone or just my machines could just do it on their own, put the clothes in, automate appliances to run, for example, for utilities. So these kinds of advancements only happen with a cloud-like or modern infrastructure, right? I mean, how far are we, like, what's the progress on this? I mean, just give us a taste of where the progress bar is on that, the ideal scenario. Hey, it's up and running. Things just, it's all working. It's all seamless. It depends on the project at this stage. Most of our projects are pretty early. Some of them are being used in production, or at least in pilot, ever as the EV charging, for instance, that's being used in dozens of pilots all over the world right now, so we expect it to be adopted quite widely in the coming years. You know, RTE did a presentation yesterday about CPATH and how it will be rolled out at RTE in the coming months in production, essentially managing all the substations in France. And LFenergy.org is the URL for folks watching. Take us through some of the thinking around recruiting participants. I mean, open source projects have modernized. It's where you got companies that have two flavors, companies who donate code like Google's or the World Amazons, and then end users, they're called in the world, but other companies too. They're contributing open source code. Does it track the same with LFenergy? Is it just another stakeholder government or are they involved? So you got companies, two flavors, end user funding, or whatever, what's the makeup? It's exactly what you described. We have the end users like the utilities, but we also, Google's a member, Microsoft is a member, largely that is focused on other projects and our standards organization. That's something I haven't mentioned yet. What we haven't mentioned yet is we also are creating standards and specifications. For instance, from measuring carbon emissions, it's done differently. Carbon data is measured differently in different countries, by different companies within the same country. And so we're working with industry to do that. But again, like the vendors who have traditionally been building the equipment for energy systems are involved and then the end users as well. Yeah, good. No, no, but you're right on the point that it's challenged the business model of the traditional vendors. You know, like Schneider, General Electric, ZBB, name it, they are to transform their business model on using this technology and they are working on it. They have to go faster because they are, there are vulnerabilities out there on grids from the old OT technology and things like that are happening now are so fast. Microsoft invested a nuclear fission start of helium energy just a day ago, hit news. So they're getting an energy contract to supply electricity from fusion plant. Is that part of the grid? I mean, nuclear data center, you know? Like, I mean, this is the level of acute problems. I mean, rolling blackouts. If you live in Texas, you can't get ACs in the summer. California has their problems. We all know what the problem is, right? You guys try to pedal as fast as you can. Exactly. Like, yes, but how do you go faster? What's the key success factors? More developers. Yeah, more developers, more, I would say for every, you know, people that listen or watch us, that join the force, you know, we will be stronger together. There are plenty of projects that are looking for people to invest in. Speak to the developers and give them the pitch, because I know developers persona, they like this stuff. This is like, it's very mission-driven, right? Exactly. And it's a tough technical problem. So, you know, take the pitch. What are you looking for for developers? Give a plug. What kind of persona? What are some of the makeup of? I think for us at Savoir Fair Linux, we are looking for embedded developers, Linux developers, virtualization developers, anybody, but I mean, not only for us, I mean for all the LFNNG project and all for the actors. You know, they are, look at the website, look at the project, get involved, and even for companies, you know, this is the best way to find opportunities of business. You know, this is really mission-driven, but this is really a business-driven too. And flex the talent too, you can grow, technically. And I think that the makeup is like, this has literally changed the world kind of opportunity. Exactly. For sure. Not in the spirit of like, get rich. You know, and you could probably make some money too. I'm not saying that it's going to be poor, but I mean, solving the energy problem and climate change is a huge accomplishment. We see that in all the young engineer and developer who joined the company. I mean, they are really excited about working on the LFNNG project. Right. Dan, give the plug for the LFNNG. What are you guys looking to do? What are you looking for? How's your talent? What are the things that's on your plans? What's LFNNG.org's website? Check it out. What's on your mind? What's in the picture? We just want more people involved. More organizations involved. More developers involved. And we need more projects. The thing is we need the entire tech stack. We are filling in every month, practically. We have a new project coming out, but it can't happen fast enough. And so if you are a company out there that is working on an interesting piece of software internally, it may be proprietary right now, consider open sourcing it if it can solve some problem that the energy sector is facing. It's going to benefit all of us. Is this one of those things that you're able to go to like COP28 and Dubai and be able to advocate for this? Are you being invited given that you're more or less focusing on some of the UN SDG7? Are they inviting you into that? The Linux Foundation, not LF Energy specifically, but the Linux Foundation actually has gone to COP in the past, this past year in Egypt. We had four representatives on site and we are planning to have folks on site in Dubai as well. The Linux Foundation as a whole has a number of other sustainability focused projects. For instance, our AgStack project for decarbonizing agriculture and OS climate for climate finance and green software foundation that's making software in the cloud itself less carbon intensive. All of us kind of have a working group at the Linux Foundation who are focused on these issues and we are discussing our plans for COP. That would seem like a great place to be recruiting. Just knowing the people who go there, I have been plugged for my brother who's with Eminem Mars and he's always there at this. And they're, like you were saying, there are companies out there that have developers in their organization that they may want to go and get involved. So I think this is a great effort and I think both on the supply side and the consumer side where the consumers are looking at how do they modernize their manufacturing in particular and I think that's a big hit as well. It's kind of like a public-private partnership model but it's open source and private coming together. I think that's the contribution that's got to come from. Christoph, give us the final word of the segment as we wrap up. What's the coolest thing you're working on in this area? That's, again, you're super excited. I will be redundant but working on that C-PASS project is very much interesting. I mean, because we are a small company and we are really part of changing something and actually I want to invite everybody to the summit. There is a LF Energy Summit in June 1, 2 in Paris but there will be virtual session. So if you want to know more about- What's the date, June what? June 1 and 2. June 1st and 2nd, okay? June 1st and 2nd, so just join virtually if you can go to Paris or otherwise it's a good occasion to go to Paris. I just happen to be in a neighborhood. I love that city. Good job. Well, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Great mission and I learned a lot. Thank you for sharing it, Dan. Great to see you. Thanks for having us. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Super important, very important mission and also for the sustainability of our planet. It's a great project. Give back, change the world. theCUBE here, changing it up big time. Day two, more content coming. Be right back. I'm John Furrier, Rob Stredtshake. Thanks for watching.