 So it's so funny Matt asked me for a walk-on song which I thought was pretty cool idea And I had two choices. Do I pick a song that's good or do I pick a song to just to troll the audience? And so I've had to listen to that Lego 2 song about 300,000 times So I feel like I would share with the audience. It's it's pretty good So I'm Pete Sheslock. I'm the VP of products for chaos search Anyone who has who's heard of chaos before that doesn't know who I am That's an important point because So no surprise we're brand new startup. We just launched in April timeframe. I just started there about a year ago and What we basically done is turned elastic s3 into an elastic search cluster And so it's it's a challenge that I've been very passionate about I'm a former operator I've ran a lot of elk and elastic search clusters and so It's a pretty cool product. I love to chat more about it But that's not what I'm here to talk about today. You can also find me on Twitter I'm at Pete Sheslock although in classic form. I don't really tweet too much about technology anymore I got a smoker because I'm a suburban dad and it's mostly just Pete's meat tweets. So All right, let's get this going all right, so I Was a technical operator for a very long time running infrastructure running on Amazon I was at a lot of different startups most you probably haven't heard of before Although dying dying DNS is kind of like the one that people have heard of before poor went out for dying oracle kind of killed That one's sorry oracle But I made this change over to to the product side and I got to do this So who here has sorry, sorry Maddie, but sorry pager duty Who here has pager duty or some sort of way it gets paged for their job just quick show of hands, right? So this feels as good as you think it does when you're just like duh leet And what's great about being in product is I've yet to run into like a 2 a.m. Product emergency Like I need a PowerPoint like ASAP at least not yet So what am I here to talk about today? So 2013 which in some ways feels like a lifetime ago, but in other ways seems like yesterday I actually submitted a talk to my first dev ops days ever went to it was dev ops days Austin and you know Tweet it out. I was so excited you know hashtag. I was doing the Twitter, right and What I noticed is that everyone was talking about like I need to hire dev ops and here's how you hire these dev ops These elusive unicorns But then no one talked about well How do you keep them happy and how do you keep them at your company and not going somewhere else? So then I got the email that like hey your talk was accepted. This is great And I was really excited But it's classic fashion for me is that now I'm freaking out because I'm actually have to put this talk together And in my classic chess lock move. I finished the talk of the night before I had to give it So 2013 again seems like a really long time ago Solomon at PyCon talked about Docker for the first time That same year. I mean can anyone imagine a world before Docker? It seems like you know lifetime ago and so I Created this talk and and the whole point of it was not only attracting the talent but Keeping them happy keeping them there But I think what's the most interesting this is actually a slide from the old deck and it's it's aged a little bit If you notice it's actually four by three instead of widescreen because no PowerPoint support widescreen But I actually didn't say dev ops on here. I said system automation release engineering operations I was very anti the concept of dev ops as a job title and even from some of the talks here You can see one of the things where people kind of you know do dev ops wrong is when they're like, oh, we built the dev ops team It's a dev ops problem, right just a brand new silos. I was always very very annoyed with the kind of title of dev ops so What I've basically done here is kind of went back to this old slide deck And basically say hey what aged well what didn't what have I learned in that time since that time I've probably interviewed hundreds of engineers across three different companies and built out a couple of sizable engineering teams And so I really wanted to just go back and say like okay What were some of the incorrect assumptions that I had and you know just share some of the learnings? So I always like to make it a little bit of a disclaimer here is that there's just no one true way There's no one way to do it and actually you need a lot of different methods and techniques in order to recruit and retain Because every time every company is different This is again, it's based on my personal experience and conversation at events like dev ops days and just from like books and blogs or whatever But also like I've been wrong a lot and I have screwed up. I've hired the wrong people. I've let go good people I've had good people quit. I've just screwed up a lot of times and that's actually honestly a really great way to learn But the most important point is that you just can't keep everyone at your company Eventually people are gonna leave and they might leave because of simplistic things like I'm gonna get some more money over at this place They might leave because like you just are not giving them a challenging job or they want to grow in their career Or they want to completely change, you know, I changed a job recently to be a product person You know, I was never gonna get that at my previous company So the biggest thing though is that your employees are your biggest investments and this should be very obvious But the time it takes to hire to train to bootstrap that losing them is a massive hit to your business So in the past I talked about recruiting is really hard When you work for companies that no one's heard of and I've worked for a lot of companies that no one has heard of before So I was really trying to think you know, is this still the case? You know and it's really getting strange to be rewinding back just six years ago But back then there weren't a lot of companies as many as today that were like going all in on cloud I got really lucky and started out a company that was on Amazon in 2009, which was a little too early for Amazon But you know if you wanted to do cloud stuff, there's only a handful of places But now like everyone's doing the DevOps with the Kubernetes in the cloud and you know It's like everyone's doing it So there's there's not really like you got to go to this place if you want to do this type of job You know it and and back then two people just embracing like chef and ansible and puppet, you know Now we're in this like post configuration management world So the kind of key thing that I really realized is like I just don't believe that your company's name recognition really matters as much Anymore just because what you do and what everyone else does from a technology standpoint is is largely the same And a good example of this is how many people in this room are either researching and implementing or you know Kind of curious about Kubernetes, right? It's it's a lot of people. It's it's most of the audience, right? So if you wanted a job doing Kubernetes, guess what? I'm sure there's someone here that will hire you for that So I think there's a simplistic view of of why people join a company and stay at a company It's the team the technology the money and I kind of even joke sometimes that it's like if you get two of the three You're probably happy at least from my own perspective if I have two of these three things like really good money awesome team technology sucks I'll survive But if you don't have at least two of these three, it's probably going to be a little bit painful So how has recruiting changed in the past few years? So the bad is still bad I saw this on Twitter a little while ago. The bad recruiters are still bad. It's a volume business So it's it's really hard to read this. I'm just gonna Just read real real briefly it says hey Angela I've honestly never heard of any of the companies you've worked for she's worked with Google and class pass I think she's the founder of class pass, you know, and and I've never heard of the school you went to but people tell me they're okay She went to UCLA I Almost didn't write this email because I'm really busy, but I figured why not. I'm just like good. God. This is terrible. So You got a treat recruiting as the long game Many many years ago, and this is actually longer than that conference talk. It was probably more like eight years ago Some friends of mine in the Boston area. I'm from Boston, Massachusetts We're all getting together kind of randomly for lunch and drinks and and whatever and we finally decided hey Let's all get together instead of these kind of little one-off meetings and just you know Network and just chat and we do it like once a quarter So and honestly, it's kind of blown up into a full blown meet-up Although I'm kind of busy and I've got kids so scheduling this meet-up. It does not happen quarterly And we don't do presentations. We don't do demos don't do anything like that It's just getting people together that are in your job that are operators. This is specifically for operators but it's a very wide kind of group of people and The joke here is that it's not there's a slack channel to and and people Have figured me out which is I started this yet as like a networking thing But it's also like Pete's personal recruiting vehicle that whenever I join a new company I'm just like sliding into people's DMs on slack and it's like hey like I'm at this new place It's really cool You know But that's a big point which is being a part of your networking community Because there's a whole group of people that are on the market right now And there's no recruiter that will ever get to them and for most companies They'll never get to them because by the time you hear that they're available they've already got their next job lined up and it's because you need to start recruiting those key people years in advance Some of the best people I've ever worked with I started recruiting at least two or three years in advance It's a real long game. So those relationships really matter building those relationships Networking in your community even broadly to you know, the rise of remote work is huge You don't have to just focus on Chicago or the city you're from Because by the time you hear that they're they're like hey I'm gonna be moving out for my new thing and like everyone comes out of the woodwork It's like no they've already got their next role kind of figured out But that old way of spraying prey emails to candidates. It just doesn't work anymore So I just killed a whole bunch of time talking about hiring and and everyone's like wait a second I thought you're talking about retention, but you can't keep the right people If you don't hire the right people if you hire the wrong people into your company There's nothing that's gonna make them happy But also those wrong hires can be extremely destructive for not only your organization But your sanity as well and they can cause all your best engineers to leave and can really cause a bigger problem and there's that concept of well You know the brilliant asshole, right? And there's there's not such thing as a brilliant asshole They're just bad people and you got to get rid of them fast and you have to act on extremely fast So I keep saying you know the right hires You know air quote there, but I want to talk more about what I call a checkbox hire I've hired so many people that kind of fit this description. It's really embarrassing to even talk about But sometimes you just have no other choice. So what what is a checkbox hire? Basically, these are the people that you're like I need someone who's got Amazon experience How about some chef maybe some Golang some Ruby and there's just a list of checkboxes terraform blah blah blah And you find that person and they check every box. Oh, this person's gonna hit the ground running There's no ramp time. Nothing like that The problem is is that they are experienced in everything you need So they're gonna come in and they're gonna actually not learn anything new and I guarantee you in six months They're gonna be bored out of their mind. They've already solved those problems other companies And it's extremely hard to keep them happy And if you just don't have anything new you're like, hey, sorry Like we have two years of like work that is in this checkbox that that you were hired for now again a little bit on them They should ask but mostly on you is that you know if you're just going straight check boxes And this is kind of a classic recruiting tactic that people are just like I'm just hiring for someone with like four years of Amazon experience, you know So I like to hire for a couple of really key attributes and they're a little bit high level But there's these tooth items intellectual curiosity and the aptitude to learn And what I've really found is that if you really keep it just to these two items and again, they can be broad You find people who are curious you find people who like to learn these are the attributes you need because Almost every company I've started that I did not know anything about that technology you know and also to like Like look at Kubernetes for example when Kubernetes like Created there were no experts in Kubernetes You have to go figure it out and that means testing and trying and learning and everything else The technology will always change finding those learners those people that are really interested in diving in keeps people really happy and engaged so Who here has been a recipient of a white whiteboard Interview process is it basically the worst thing you've ever done It is terrible. I've been a part of those as well. I will never ever do a whiteboard interview So if you are a hiring manager Or you work for a large You know search engine-based company And in an Google Then you got to stop doing that right? It's a terrible way to hire people. It just pisses everyone off So what can you do instead though, right? Because in many ways you still want to gauge this person's ability on on the technical side And so what we did at a previous company is we actually created this really clearly defined project That's time box. It's aligned with the role Meaning it's not like give me a you know sort of this blah blah whatever computer terms I'm just a product person now, so I've like forgotten everything technical But it's like something that is part of their role and you time box it and you kind of see how far they can go So very specifically what we build is said build an API server So if you're like a DevOps person You know you think like well, why am I going to build an API server? well, guess what a lot of what you do is probably interacting with APIs and Building a very basic API server is actually a lot easier than you think it is And so what we've said is build an API server that responds to one endpoint only It can be written in any language and all it says is just when you hit that endpoint It just responds with the current time and we just said hey at four hours just stop right now There is something I desperately want to do and I've heard some rumors out there that there's companies solving this But I desperately want to pay people to do this task because it's for real hours of time But the tax implications of paying people that you're interviewing is weird I've heard some rumors too that like gift cards work and there's no tax thing So, you know, I hope to have an open space after if anyone knows more about this Let me know but I don't like the fact of giving people homework I'd really like to pay people for it because it's it's work, right? So then we also made an escalating difficulty as well where it's like, okay Give me another endpoint will do a time zone conversion and then another one was like deploy it somewhere You know so you think like okay Well, do they deploy it to Heroku? Do they spin up an EC2 instance? Do they run blot like run a server somewhere? Do they you know spin up 10 servers of Kubernetes and deploy it there? It doesn't really matter how they deployed or where they deployed it just it's like taking it to that next level like add SSL support etc, so We had one individual who didn't deploy anything didn't write any code But wrote 10 pages of documentation about their thought process on how they were trying to solve this problem And it was so clear and well written we hired them on the spot Because it didn't really matter whether or not they they completed it. It's like we want to see how you think how did you get through it? So from my previous slide I had this one which is losing people socks and you know spoiler alert It's still the worst it's really terrible and it cuts even deeper when it's something that's actually avoidable So why do we lose people in the first place? Well, I think there's these these items here that drive right and there's a great book by Daniel pink called drive And it talks about the three items autonomy mastery and purpose and I think These three items are really if you can have at least one or two. That's great to help Keep people engaged and happy right you have to feel like your your work is meaningful that you're becoming a master of it That you're becoming an expert that you have autonomy that you can you know derive value from what you're doing so I Had this slide about autonomy and I took a picture of my daughter on my computer because I thought it was hilarious It's like, you know, I and I said this line which are kind of bumped on when I read it again But I said, you know, I tell my kids what to do, you know, not my engineers But the reality is is that it's not a you know, hey, you do this you do that It's like let's have a discussion and let's let's understand what needs to get done and and how we prioritize that Because that's a great way to have people people feel like they have control of their job Is that they are help guiding the work they're doing there's nothing worse than having to continually support some dying piece of infrastructure And you feel like no one's listening to you that it needs to get improved So, you know back off you let them make mistakes you kind of course correct along the way and it's it's a back-and-forth process So of course this being a really long time ago. I said to my daughter. Hey, can we take take an updated one here? Just to show like how many years ago it was And it's actually not the same laptop. It's it's a totally different laptop But yeah, there's a lot of stickers on it and I was just really excited because she like never listens to me So it's like the first time that she was like, oh, yeah, I'll totally do that. It was like pretty it was pretty cool so I was like we have to capture this so You know you think to yourself well if I'm not telling people what to do How do we get what work done you try to line work with an owner? But then you back off and you give them that ability to complete the task and get it done And it's not like you just let them off into their own little world for six months and and have them do whatever they're doing It's you're continually checking in how many people here have a one-on-one with their direct manager now Keep your hand up. Do you have that one-on-one weekly? So having a weekly one-on-one I think is huge and it should not be like hey, how's this project going it should start with hey How are you doing right? That's it, but it should also slide into the let's talk about the project Let's talk about what you're doing. Are you blocked? Are you having issues? Are you struggling? Do you need help? Do you need support? Do you need training? You know someone did a great talk yesterday about taking time at your job to like read a book and learn something I think that's awesome So mastery it means getting better at something that matters to you not to like the other person And there's a concept of continuous learning we always are learning new things We're always trying to get better and this is not just technical skills. This could be management training this could be You know leadership training this could be public speaking it could be writing There's a lot of things that people in a technical role honestly probably should get better at I mean I joke that I think more technical people should take a business class or a finance class Do you know how your company makes money? It's shocking how many engineers actually don't know Hop on if you're at like a company that sells a product go to one of your demos and watch how they Show your product to another person. You might be amazed or horrified And I just had a play I saw this picture online any of any piano players in here This is like perfect representation of when you become a master. You suddenly don't enjoy it anymore So that purpose, you know being a part of something bigger that matters and again it matters to you It's not like you saying. Oh, well, this is a big deal. It's like what has to matter to the person, right? so No one's ever said this right? I want to write code that no one ever uses It's just gonna go into a hole right completely wasted and writing code that is never used is extremely demoralizing And I've been part of projects where you spend all this time and effort to build this really awesome thing And then at the last minute they're like well We've had a shift in priorities and we're gonna put that on pause or we're gonna put that on hold And then that's code for like it's never getting done So open source projects and this is something I talked about six years ago, and it's even more important now They're not only great ways to give people ownership It makes it easier to recruit people later the costs are honestly pretty minimal although if you have a popular open source project It can be it can be a lot, but again the more popular they are It's a big recruiting effort for you benefits are just massive So how many people here have heard of a tool called sense you to monitoring monitoring framework so I've talked a lot about companies that I've never that people have never heard of before so more people in here I have heard of sense you versus the company that actually created it So there's a company called Sony and that I was working at we were very angry with Nagios very angry with Nagios It did not scale to handle dynamic workloads in the cloud and we were very early in the cloud And so we built this open source monitoring tool called sense you it's an open source project. It's now a company and they're doing awesome it's really cool and that helped engage these engineers that were extremely hard to find and kept them at this company that Went nowhere. I mean and how do you keep those people happy and excited? It's like working on projects like this and and that was helping us move the business forward So who here is actually a remote employee works from home every day. It's pretty good number actually So this was from my old deck. Do you want to scale in this economy? This was six years ago It's even harder now to hire people, right? And I think talent beats location every day of the week The manager of that person is actually responsible for their output does not matter location now And not everyone is great at working from home, and that's a different issue But it really doesn't and it shouldn't matter where people contributing from this was also from this slide You know six or plus years ago. It's kind of funny how like this aged really not well Like IRC sorry. No one really uses that anymore Skype I mean if you are at a enterprise that paid money for that you price will use it Google Hangouts is gone. It's Google meet, you know hip chat, you know, they're gone It's basically just github, but the reality is that like a slack has really just taken over the world And it's it's never going away. So all right. So now we have to talk about money Because this is a kind of key part of employee retention And I should just saw this on Twitter and I was like, hey, why do you like this company? I'm like because you pay me so I Hate this line and I've heard it before and again, maybe it's self-selecting I've worked at a lot of startups, but it's like hey everyone takes a pick up to come here You're gonna get so much value out of this. It's the classic like work for exposure thing You know, and I think the line is is you don't work for exposure people die of exposure The problem with a pay cut to work here is that if another company is gonna pay you more which guess what they will And if another company is willing to do an above market, which that's what they are now that above market Salary offer is now a massive bump who would not change jobs if you're talking 20 to 30 percent raise I think you'd have a really hard time doing that It's just a cheap way of doing business and it just opens the door if you underpay an engineer to like $80,000 a year going and that's the going rate for your city is maybe like a hundred thousand Again, there's always gonna be a company that will overpay to bring them on There is some company with more money than you and they will use it So basically you have to take issue of money off the table if the fact is is you can always go make more money somewhere else as Basically the receiver of the money. I always have to say to myself listen It's got to be enough where I just don't like think about it where I don't feel like I'm underpaid Of course, yeah, I sure it'd be great to have more money But you have to basically have it just be enough to just take that issue off the table now In the the talk pay open space we did the other day You know I had said if you show me a list of Employee salaries at a startup and it's pretty much any non-public startup I can look at it and tell you how long they've been employed there Almost guarantee you because the people that are at a startup when they come on board today are gonna get paid market Two years ago. They were paid a lower amount because you had less money four years ago even lower and startups are notoriously Notoriously bad at going back and correcting those mistakes and how many people have heard this one Which is like, oh, we can't give that engineer twenty thousand dollar raise. That's too much or oh, they're gonna get suspicious It's like no one's gonna get suspicious that you got a raise and you could guess what treat him like adults and say hey We've looked at the market. You're getting paid less than market and we're fixing that I feel like again as an adult I would be pretty happy about that So there's another really critical metric. It's the STPR Shit-to-pay ratio because I did say that There is someone who will pay you more for what you do today But what are you going to have to put up with to do it? So if you are gonna take that job for more money Just remember there's a ratio It's the shit-to-pay ratio, but at the end of the day underpay your engineers at your own risk And this is important today was important six years ago. It'll be important five ten years from now And and companies fall down on this so hilariously that if this is the one thing you do at your company You'll be beating out 90% of the market And you know you steal people say well, we just don't want to hire people for money They want to be here for the cause. Yeah, I'm here for the cause But I have got like a mortgage and kids that got to go to camp and 300 other things, right? Your company and what you do is probably not special You're oh, you're doing kubernetes on AWS cool. Oh, you're doing kubernetes on AWS. You know everyone's doing the same thing Then we have this my favorite one too, which is no no no no we underpay because you'll gonna have you get stock options You get rich here So I still got a bunch of slides to go through and I felt really bad for Matt that I was probably gonna go over So I can't stop too long here to laugh at that one But here's the deal about stock options and you need to ask yourself these questions And if and if all of them are yes Then yeah, this is probably a good one But first off are you a founder because guess what your founders probably have when the company starts? Well, they have if there's two founders they have 50% of the company and when investors come in Maybe they have like 40 or 30% and you can see when all these startups file their s1 Guess what? There's two people maybe three that hold a single percentage at that point unless you're like crazy like slack or something Where you know and some of these companies that have grown really fast, right, but Further down, I mean in a startup It goes like the founders and then the next hire if you got 1% of that company that would be crazy From there if you're like an engineer, maybe you're the first engineer you get 1% next engineer Maybe like half a percent maybe a tenth of a percent and then at some point they just go we're not even doing percent Here's like 10,000 shares, which just means nothing So also were you granted restricted stock most likely you were not you were granted stock options or instead of stock options But if you were granted restricted stock, that's actual stock. It's stock. They give it to you But why don't companies do that you have to pay for it or they have to gift it to you? Basically, which is basic income and there's not a lot of people when taking a new job that are willing to have to pay 1020 or some thousand dollars to buy the shares in And the reason why this exists for founders is that when you start a company value of the company is zero Those options have no value and they can only go up from there But when you come in anytime after they will have a value Does that grant have protections for change and control and that means if the company gets acquired Do and you get fired do you get all your shares? That's an important thing you have to keep in mind new CEO comes in you get fired. I've seen that clause put in I've seen salespeople do that one where it's like well, listen if a new CEO comes in they're gonna bring in their salespeople So I need to have that protection Is there a convertible note? Don't forget there's debt on company and there's all these different ways of dilution And debt always wins and this is why I kind of joke more business more tech people need to take a business class because if you understand How businesses get funded you'll find out that it's really easy for those shares that you think you have a lot of to just get diluted to nothing This is my favorite one. There's a concept of liquidation preference, which is it's if money goes into a startup It's the VC saying well we want to take that money out first and pretty often it's like a 1x right I put in ten million dollars You get sold for a hundred million. I'm gonna take ten million out and then the 90 is now split up between all of us including me But sometimes if your company is maybe not doing too well, maybe that preference is 2x or 3x. I've seen 4x So it's a really easy way that if you say I'm gonna put in ten million dollars, but I want a 5x multiple Okay, cool. We got sold for fifty million dollars I'm gonna take all that money and everyone else gets nothing including the founders So there's just countless examples and you can Google it see all the different ways that your stock options are just not Gonna work. So again, there are just too many reasons you're probably not gonna get rich in a startup But that doesn't mean that you can't make money in other ways And if you work for a public company with RSU's actual stock literally none of this applies It's a public company. It's real stock. It's real money. You're giving it You can sell it and you can take the cash and run So, okay, I did all these things you said Someone left anyway. Guess what? Congratulate them. That's pretty awesome Ask them for their honest feedback And and I'll be honest on this one Don't ask it for the feedback unless you're ready for it because you may not like it But you should understand what the reasons are while I'm leaving because you're a terrible manager, right? As we've talked about many times your terrible manager. That's why I'm leaving Okay, but hey this role is new and different and I just wasn't gonna get that here That sounds awesome because guess what if you've been in this business for long enough It all comes around again, right? There are people that I've worked with 10 20 years ago that I still work with that I've come back around I've worked with in the past This stuff lasts forever, but wish them the best on their new role stay connected with them because guess what two or four years From now, maybe you're gonna hire them again So the other thing I always like to talk about here as well is the concept of a counteroffer Which is if someone comes to you with an offering hand and they're ready to go again My personal opinion is I never offer a counteroffer and that's maybe Unpopular opinion. I know some people use it as a way to get more money, which you should absolutely do that You know always try to get the most for what you know what you're doing there But the problem I always have with a counteroffer is that person is already kind of mentally there, right? They're looking at the paper and they see that that dollar amount or maybe the opportunity there They're mentally there And it gets weird if you've ever taken the counteroffer and stayed it's weird. It's always weird, right? So I never offer I never extend them out You know, I've had engineers get upset because they thought I was going to But if it comes down to a money thing honestly again as a manager I feel like I want to know that in advance and I've had some good success where I've had an engineer say Hey, you know, I've been here for a while, you know, I'm looking at the market I think it's a little bit higher if you were at the talk pay thing There's a spreadsheet that I believe is going to be shared use that information to help you get raised But I think that's something that is different than I'm changing jobs So I think if someone's leaving I just can't provide them with what they want So at the end of the day people I think really excel when they're excited About their work when there's high levels of trust across across the organization They've got that personal ownership that responsibility that they're making something better and that that responsibility to actually affect change in an organization So just to really distill it down, you know people need to be challenged There needs to be ownership across the employees high levels of trust on both sides You have the trust that they're gonna get the work done and they have to trust that you're gonna kind of get out of their way But also if you're a manager, you're kind of the like, you know, the shit umbrella, right? You got to kind of keep keep it up there to help your engineers do what they need to do And get it completed that doesn't mean hide everything up here It means, you know making sure that they're not distracted context switching all over the place But the biggest thing on this one is if you continually give like the worst work to that one person because they They will take it with a smile on their face and they'll do that work Don't be surprised when they leave Because they'll just they'll just ghost. I mean they'll just be gone I think it works until it doesn't and and it's it's it's pretty bad So but at the end of the day, you just treat them like adults and it seems like such a basic thing It's like I'm gonna treat these adults as adults But it's funny how oftentimes companies spend all this time and energy and money hiring these really capable intelligent individuals into the business and then micromanage them to the end of the day, you know These are highly paid professionals. You have to treat them like the skilled adults there are so For open spaces later, I'd love to talk about Stock options if you're thinking about going to a startup if you're at a startup I've been through this so many times. I've learned the hard way many times on all the different ways things that you might want to say so You know keep an eye out for that later. I'd love to chat more about stock options and and and can help anyone out with That that's all I have. Thank you very much