 Sumis. Awesome. Welcome everyone to So Us in Histories. This is our seventh hidden histories and the final one for this academic year. So we're really proud to have the Blindian project with us today and I'm going to hand over to Fazana really quickly who's going to give a brief introduction. Thank you. Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for which is our final hidden histories for this season and I'd like to give a warm welcome to the Blindian project who are joining us. So the Blindian project is a social impact media platform and it's a community at the intersection of black and brown culture and their aim is to normalise black and brown relations, relationships and dismantle anti-blackness and indifobia. I would like to introduce our three speakers now. So I first like to introduce you to Jonah. Jonah is, sorry, you are the co-found, well the founder, sorry, of the Blindian project. Jonah is a Ugandan American and an interdisciplinary artist, activist and was born in Chicago and I believe you're raised in the cornfields of central Illinois. And we also have Martha Chandran Dickerson. Great to have you here, Martha. Martha serves on the editorial team of the Blindian project and also you're an educator and freelance writer and editor. And Martha also serves on various non-profit organisations in the racial literacy and cultural fluency space. I believe you were born in South India and I know you've been around, you've lived in England, Belgium and Kenya as well and now you reside in America. And we also have a warm welcome to Ayesha Saida. You are, I've seen this is amazing, a Pakistani Swiss polyglot, I want to know more, multi-genre creative with the spirit of a sociologist. I love that you are a collector of all things, people, brands and storytelling. And I know you're also a freelance writer and editor by day and a theatre student by night. That's really exciting. And you currently reside in beautiful Dublin. So a very warm welcome to you all. So just to say for everyone just to remind as well, you know, hidden histories is a fantastic platform for us to share narratives of Asian, African and Caribbean communities here. And I am an Arts and Humanities Librarian at SOAS and Ludi is also one of our librarians for China in Asia. Amapoko who's also part of this Hidden History's team is with us and we're just, it's a pleasure to have you tonight. So I'm going to now hand over to to Jonah and tell us more please. Thank you. Thank you for that wonderful handover Tarzan. I feel like I'm at an awards ceremony and I've just had the best opening. So thank you for that, for the team as well too. And I'm just thanking everybody for making time in their evenings to join us. So final one of the of this season, the series shall we call it. We are the Blinion Project and this is slightly different from some of the talks we've done before. But interesting unless I'm really looking forward to kind of nerdy out on some of the things that I found really interesting and impactful and hope that this inspires, energizes, gives anybody in the audience what they came here to say. So if I can ask anyone who is here, the attendees, have you heard of the Blinion Project before? Do you know of our work or is this the first time? I think people can do emojis or something like that of some sort of thumbs up of some sort or comment. Okay, well I'm going to share some of the story with us. So if you go to the next slide, Aisha. So one of the first things I just want to say, and this is really interesting to me because it's something that dawned on me through the process of creating the Blinion Project and it wasn't further on down the line that really hit me. And it was one of those things when you read a book and the book is saying exactly what you've been trying to contextualize or say for a very, very long time. So I hadn't read any of Bell Hooks's work in the past. I had heard her name and it was probably from a hip hop song or something like that. But when she passed away, I stumbled across Love as the Practice of Freedom, which is roughly about a four or five page PDF document. And when I read it, it just it spoke to me in so many different ways. Love is a recurring theme that she talks about throughout her work. Sorry, for those who don't know, Bell Hooks is an author. She's a social activist. She's a professor. She talks about race, feminism, and class. So like I was saying, when I came across her work, I found it very, very interesting. I think in this four or five page document, I think one of the first things that she does is she mentions the name Malcolm X and the King. And she kind of calls them out politely as saying this is something that she felt was missing for both of their kind of approaches to their movement building. But she has this ethos of love. And this love, it's not just a romantic love, it's not just a friendship love. This ethos of love is a genuine sense of caring for, I'll call it the world, and people in the world. The ethos of love is about caring about people who are suffering from casteism. It's also caring from people who are all suffering from the recent abortion issue that has been brought up with the Supreme Court. It's just thinking about people and not only thinking about issues that affect yourself, but also thinking about the others. So if we go to the second quote there, many of us are motivated to move against domination solely when we feel our self-interest directly threatened. Often then, the longing is not for collective transformation of society and end to politics of dominations, but rather simply for the end of what we feel is hurting us. And I'd say another reason that this really spoke to me as well is a lot of the work that we do is online. I think online, well I know online work can be a very toxic place at time with trolls, but it could also be a very, very rewarding time. So I've met both of my colleagues who are here today via the internet, via the interwebs, so it can do very great things for you. But this second quote really kind of spoke to me whenever I feel down about why aren't people working with us more, want people more in solidarity, want people more into these intersectional issues, and just something that I would think about from time to time. So I encourage everybody to read Bell Hooks, love of the practice of freedom, it will be on a handout that we will pass out a bit later on, but it's a very good read. So we open with that. And if we go to the next slide, and Rosanna, you started to tell a bit of my story, but I'd like to share just a little bit more because I think this really brings into focus how the Blinding Project was started. So I am, you got an American, I'm born in Chicago, lived in and around Chicago for about 2021 years of my life. That basketball you see is because basketball was something that was very important to me from age of about eight or nine, taught me a lot of great things about teamwork, camaraderie, discipline, focus, etc. I played collegently. You get four years to play collegently. It took me five and a half to graduate. So after my eligibility was done, I decided that I wanted to have an adventure. So what do you do when you want an adventure? I decided I wanted to study abroad. And this was 2001. So this was, I think study abroad was just starting off really at that point in time. A lot of people weren't doing it. The place where I ended up going was Dublin, Ireland, where Ayesha is today. So in my first month in Dublin, this is right after September the 11th, which is interesting as well too, because people saw me, they knew I was American. And of course they wanted to know what my thoughts were on foreign policy and all of these different things that I had never thought about in my life before. So it was great to be outside of the States and have people interrogating me and having me question what my thoughts were about the States. This isn't something they taught us in school. So first month in Dublin, and I meet this Indian princess who later became my wife, who is Sveta Madhula, who is in the picture there, mother to our beautiful children, Isla and Johnny. And Sveta was the first intimate conversation that I had with a South Asian person. So I had studied with a handful of South Asian Indian people before, never had intimate conversation with any of them, which is a bit crazy. I was 21 years age. I had never heard of Diwali. I never knew what Diwali was. Was a billion people, circa a billion people celebrate this holiday and I had never heard of it. So needless to say, she really opened up my mind, thoughts, perspectives to a lot of different things, whether it was culturally, religiously, food, musically, all of those good things. So we started this relationship. Six, seven years later, we were married at a beautiful wedding where family from both sides were there. And I'll never forget at the wedding, I'd say about four or five aunties made a point of coming up to me and saying, we know couples like you. We've been to weddings like yours. And I didn't really know what they meant at that time, but it became clear later on and bless them. They were just trying to be sweet and making me feel comfortable there. So I'd say it probably wasn't for another 10 years until we met another couple that looked like us. But I'm jumping ahead now. So if we can go to the next slide and what I'll talk about is talk a bit about the inspiration behind the blending project. So there was a trigger warning here. There was a bit of violence in this in this video here. This happened when we were on our way to India for our first family trip with our two children. So the night before we boarded the plane, I think I received something on my phone. It was basically a message that was an Al Jazeera article. So if you could press play on that night. Video shared on Facebook show a mall descending on a group of Nigerian students. In this shopping mall outside New Delhi, hundreds of attackers use chairs and sticks to hit the Africans were using brick to knock the glass trying to open the door. Me and my brother just me and my brother were trying to draw the door back. Justice. Justice. The attack occurred during a vigil for a teenager who died of a suspected drug overdose. Some people blamed a group of Nigerians for the boy's death. During the candle procession when they reached out so low, they spotted some Nigerian students who were shopping. They got violent when they saw them when they attacked. Five people have been arrested. India's foreign minister took to social media insisting there would be a quick response. I have spoken to Yogi Ariyanda, chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, about attack on African students in Greater Noida. He has assured me there will be a fair and impartial investigation into this unfortunate incident. It is once again brought attention to discrimination. Thank you for sharing that, Aisha. So for me, I guess what was going through my head when I saw this is it reminded me of Rodney King, what happened in 1992. I don't remember if the people want to call it a no. He was an African American in California who was brutally beaten by, let's say, call it eight or nine police officers who were beating him with batons so they were circled around him in a similar manner. So it really struck me and shook me. I had started writing when I studied abroad because I wanted to share the perspectives and what was happening to me to friends that I had back in the States who may never leave the country. This is 2001. A lot of people, my friends at that time, didn't have passports. Never thought about leaving the country. USA was the place to be. So I wanted to share things like the volley and different religions and cultures with them. So I started writing. If we jump to the next slide, Aisha. Right. So I'm just going to keep on talking. So I also was really into technology at this point in time. So as a younger kid, I remember hanging out in AOL chat rooms that were very boring and there were no pictures and there were black screens and you had to dial something up for about a minute before you got on. I used to hang out in these rooms and just talk to people. But I just love technology. I loved bringing people together. I love seeing people come together under different, you know, topics, themes or concepts. And I think this slide here, everyone has a need for community, it's an important slide. And it speaks to, I think, some of the experiences of people who are in black and South Asian, black and Indian relationships. Everyone has a need for this community. So humans are born within the need for belonging. We don't operate in a vacuum, but rather exist within a set of systems. So you can see the systems here, public policy, community, organizational, interpersonal, individual, you can see how they're flowing out from one side, the right side and coming back in from the left side. So it's interesting to see, you know, we have the ability as individuals, as people, as collectives to impact, you know, the greater holes when we come together. And when we even take that action upon ourselves, I never thought when I started the Blooming Project that it would grow to what it is today. So, and I think one thing people often hear, especially as creatives, is just put it out there. Just don't care who is watching or who is looking. Just put it out there like you don't care who's reading. And that's effectively what I did. So community slide here, very important. The last point here, being in a blending relationship can often feel isolating and make it hard to find a sense of blogging within each of these systems here, which is a very important point. That's something that you'll probably hear from Aisha and Marta as well too. So like I said, I saw that Al Jazeera article and then in my head, I started thinking about what I was going to do about that. And if you go to the next slide, Aisha. So what I decided to do is I decided that the Blooming Project was going to be the next, I called them campaigns at that time. It was going to be the next campaign that I did. So as you can see, I put together a nice little tidy email here. I was calling it a black Indian digital collage. I could talk a bit about the name a bit later on, but you know, this was very specific to my experience at that point in time. So it was about my wife and I, she's Indian, obviously, I'm Ugandan, so black. So you know, just basically telling them, as you can see exactly like I've just said, I've read this Al Jazeera article, I've thrown in the Martin Luther King quote, we want to do something to combat these stereotypes and this narrative. So would you like to contribute to it? So I had been stalking, I will use the word stalking. I had been stalking several individuals and couples online, and I sent them this message and 10, 10 of them from around the world decided to contribute. They sent me their stories. I packaged it up very crudely in an Adobe product, I think it was, and I put it out into the world. And as again, I'll talk about being a creative as creatives. Oftentimes when we create things, I don't think that we actually appreciate the importance of what they actually mean to people. So I effectively put this out into the world, and then just quickly moved on to the next piece of work. Next slide. Right. So this is some of the, yeah, so this is some of the beginning. So this is very, this is early in the Instagram, because Instagram was the main platform that effectively helped transmit the message. I talked about the AOL chat rooms earlier, but Instagram was a great channel for us because, you know, visuals were an important part to it. Couples submitted their stories, and also it allows you to know a certain amount of caption space as well too, which was important. So early on, I asked people to share their stories. Sorry, I'd ask them actually questions via the DM chat, and then there'd be about 10 bubbles there, and I would condense that down to a story, and that became too tiresome. It was just, it wasn't efficient. So effectively, I went to allowing people to share whatever they wanted to share. And I just told them that share whatever you want to share, whatever you want to put out into the world, whatever you want to give people, it was very therapeutic. It was cathartic. I ended up writing one of these because we did a book later on that I'll tell that I will quickly talk about. But yeah, no prompts to the people. I didn't tell them to write about, you know, how their in-laws might have treated them, or how they felt about their parents or anything like that. It was just you write whatever you want to. And just to see how this grew, and the acceptance from the community, it was just so beautiful. You saw people seeing themselves who hadn't seen themselves ever before. You saw people who thought that they were the only people to be in these relationships, seeing other people who were in these relationships. You saw people stumbling across this community who were like, I thought I'll see only one. And now they're all of us. And it was just really, really, it was very powerful. So you can see a mixture of things here, the people submitting their stories. If you want to be technical, it's called user-generated content. People talk about that often as being a very powerful way to, it's almost social proof. I mean, I wasn't thinking about social proof. It was just the way that I found myself creating stories throughout my kind of time writing and being a creative here. So you can see the three couples there are obviously sharing their stories. They're prompts, which could have been a question in my head that I wanted to ask the community. They're various different pieces that we started incorporating in this. Next slide. Right. So from that slide, what essentially sat underneath all of that, the IG bit, was this house. So very early on, this was created, as you can see, it's shaped like a house. We needed to think about, and I don't think Aisha, you or Martha was here at this time, but this was me and a couple of the people thinking about, what do we want to talk about? What do we want to share? What is going to create community? What's going to build a community? What is going to get people here? So effectively, the way that I'll put it now is it's almost like, I would say kind of like the beginning of relationships from kind of you meeting somebody all the way to, well, it should go all the way until you kind of pass. So all the different stages that you go through, whether that is introducing someone to your parents, whether that's getting married, whether that's getting kid, having kids, how you live your life, how you raise your kids, all of that good stuff was included here. And then you can see how it was kind of broken down further into subtopics. So with this house effectively, it made it much easier to kind of see what we want to talk about, see what ideas, what projects and different type of things that we wanted to be building. Next slide. Cool. So I'd say, let me just jump. So that email was sent in 2017. Like I said, I put it down and I just moved on to the next piece. I'd say probably call it six to eight months following that a reporter from BBC reached out to me. And I remember the first thing he asked me is, have you ever experienced racism in your relationship? In your relationship? And I mean, I think a lot of us who are in these relationships or, you know, kind of work in the sphere will know, yes, there is, but that wasn't the primary kind of that wasn't the ethos of what we were trying to put across. So we declined or I declined to engage with the conversation. But I think for me, having been, I guess, kind of taught or showed how to do PR at a basic level via my sister who's a communications major, it kind of singled to me like, okay, there is something, there's something about these stories. You know, I didn't go out pitching anybody at that time. It was just the person came to me, they found it and they came to me. So it was kind of like a signal to me like, oh, there is something about these stories. So time went on, 2020 rolls around, had started doing live events and things like that that incorporate art, culture, essentially just trying to bring people together while trying to also dispel stereotypes and misconceptions. So did something for Black History Month that incorporated Black fatherhood and just try to dispel misconceptions by panel discussions art and music and things like that. So with COVID when it shut us down, sorry, COVID came. I had a decision to make, I was doing about eight different things at that time. And I thought to myself and I asked my sister as well too, what is the most kind of impactful thing project that I'm working on that I have worked on? What makes me feel the most value in my life? Like I'm giving something back to the world and that was a blending project. So head went down and just focused on trying to build this out. I think a book was inevitable because the book was essentially a collection of stories, although it has artwork, prompts and various other different things that's turning together. And this book is what came out of that. Aisha, Aisha was one of the lead editors on this book with me. I will admit putting this together was probably one of the hardest things I've ever done creatively. But so rewarding. And I met a lot of different people like just vendor, Sangera, who runs an organization in the UK that is about what is the name of the organization. I will come back to the name of the, Carmen Irvana, that's it, Carmen Irvana, which helps people out who are usually the victims of honor crimes. So she herself was married, kind of married off at like 15 or something like that. And then she ran away and she basically started Carmen Irvana to be a home to help people who are facing similar experiences. So you could see what she said here, which I just thought was so beautiful. Spoke to my personal experiences a number of ways and touches on the very essence of humanity. I need to be accepted to love and to be loved unconditionally. As someone who remains rejected by family for the choices I've made, this book reminds me that I am not alone. It equally gives hope to new generations as these stories are creating new legacies and traditions. Again, something that we've been talking about a lot internally is about creating history, creating black and brown history. So we are creating the history that we want our kids to see and brick by brick, block by block, via various different conversations like this that we're having. We are creating a visible new history for people in our communities. Next slide. And I'm almost done here. Right. So this is it, hip histories, right? Intersectional identities, part one. So things that really, really spoke to me and things that I found interesting since I've been doing this work and reading. Indentured servitude. Indentured servitude, what I found is that there are many South, sorry, let me go back. My family is from Uganda. So I spent a lot of time in Uganda as a youngster probably between ages 12 to 17 every summer time I would go to Uganda for a month. I grew up eating samosas. I had no idea where the samosas or where the samosas came from. And there were Indians who lived in Uganda. I had no idea how the Indians or South Asians, sorry, came to Uganda. So as I stuck my head into indentured servitude, I started to figure out and read this horrible story about basically how slavery was abolished and a new form of slavery came into play by which people were, you know, on many occasions taken advantage of and shipped to various different British colonies. So I think up to 2 million people were went through indentured servitude. So what would really struck me about this is the fact that there were a lot of South Asian or Indian people who did not know about indentured servitude. So they could have been fifth generation living in South Africa, but they had no connection back to India other than knowing that they came from somewhere in India. Or you'd have people in the Caribbean similar stories. They knew they had family and they know their roots were there, but they didn't really know prior to that time. And as a person who grew up in the United States, you know, a lot of friends who are African American who, well, I'd say indentured servitude, people probably had a closer connection to where they're from then. Sorry, no, I'll leave it at, I'm gonna leave it at equal. I'm not even gonna go there right now, but just not really knowing where your roots explicitly were at. And as I've personally grown older, I've gained so much by knowing where I'm from. I need to speed up now. Okay, scramble for Africa. So anytime people talk about partition, they're usually talking about partition of the subcontinent of India. So Pakistan, India, 47, Bangladesh later on. A lot of people don't know that Africa also suffered a partition, went through a partition at the hands of similar people, similar way, people sat around the table, no Africans at the table, no thought to ethnic religious cultural lines, it was just cut. And you take this piece, you take this piece, you take this piece. And the last piece I'm going to talk about is the model minority myth. So if you ask people if they know about the model minority myth, I'd say eight to nine people will raise their hands. If you ask them if they know the history, or how it came to be, they won't really talk about that much. So what I found very, very interesting is that it was introduced by sociologist named William Peterson. So as you start to look at the story and see how the US went through different immigration policies that slowly, slowly restricted people, whether they were Chinese, whether they were South Asian, whether they were from the Asiatic Bard Zone in Afghanistan, et cetera, et cetera. You start to see how foreign policy is basically just created and spun up to usually help one particular group. So those were the things that have really stuck with me throughout all of the reading that I've done. And I will hand off, because I think the next slide is for Martha. Thank you, Jonah. I just want to transition from what he was sharing about how the Blingin project is this dynamic interactive online community. And for me, I think it's been about two years that I've been a part of this community. It's been really, really helpful because it's not just about creating connection, but also and celebrating our commonalities. But also this need to, as Jonah touched on in the last slide, the need to kind of zone in and focus on the very intersectional identities in our very large demographic. If we're looking at South Asian diaspora and the entire Blingin experience where South Asian diaspora and the African Black diaspora as well connect, you're talking about multitudes of stories and all of them look different. And so I'm really grateful to the Blingin project and I hope that more people can get connected because we can see our shared experiences, but also the ways in which we're very specific. And I think the Hidden History is a great home for this conversation simply because there is a lot of like erasure that goes into how we're represented, how we're perceived as a community. So if we can go to the next slide. So I want to, when we're talking about intersectional identity in terms of my experience as a part of this Blingin community, I want to just briefly discuss three things that really explore identities that are often not heard about or perceived. The first one is Dravidian. So it's a technical term for South Indian. Dravidian comes from the word, the Sanskrit word Dravidas. And I and other South Indians find this term useful. And I think when we're talking about people that have experienced erasure or experience invisibility and visualisation, finding terms that we use to identify, to self-identify is a very empowering way. And it's also a way in which we can explore those things that are often not explored. So a lot of South Indians or South Indians I've interacted with in the social justice racial literacy space have, you know, have decided that they would like to refer to themselves as Dravidian. And I thought this was a very effective way. When we think of South Asian diaspora, a common term that's used is Desi, which comes from the Hindi word. And it's a very useful term, but it's also a very reductive term because there's so many people, South Indians in particular, who feel overlooked and obscured in a race in these conversations around the South Asian experience and specifically in terms of the word Desi, because they have their own narrative. And one that's often not, you know, televised when you think about Bollywood, it's centred around the North. And Northern hegemony dictates a lot of things when it comes to South Asian culture, whether it's their entertainment or, you know, economy, economy, sorry, and politics and all the spheres of, you know, it seems to be relegated to the North and focused around the Northern hegemonic experience. And so for people in the South, and, you know, for myself, my background is I'm a Thamilayan. Even though I grew up outside of India, that specific identity is very important because, and like, for instance, my, there was the one state that refused to adopt Hindi as the national language. And you will have people, children of Thamilayan parents kind of laugh about how their parents were very proud about, that they were proud that they did not learn Hindi, because they resisted that movement and engage in the Dravidian movement in which they really celebrated their language was Thamil and Thamil is a very, very ancient, probably one of the oldest languages in India. And it's a Dravidian language. So Dravidian, you know, is an ethnolinguistic group. And there are several, a lot of people, when they think of Dravidians, they think of South Indians or people from the South Southern part of South Southern Asia. So includes Sri Lanka as well, Malaysia, and it's scattered all over but concentrated mostly in the South. And so it's a term that's worth wrestling with. It's a term that is worth, you know, kind of really emphasizing because it's one, it's a word that is often unknown to many who are not from that part of the diaspora. And so I really appreciate Jonah being, you know, open to all these different experiences that exist within the Blinden community, Dravidian being one. The other thing, and I think a lot of us, even I would say all three of us here, kind of have this global multicultural experience. And I have, I would articulate it as the third, the brown third culture experience with a, you know, with a kind of a disclaimer because the third culture kid term is a term that was coined by a Western anthropologist. And it's a very useful term. But the problem with it as, as is the case with a lot of, you know, terms and concepts is that it is centered around whiteness. And it is very much kind of exposes the white experience of third culture. So for example, for myself, being a child of a statistician who's also a missionary, we were the first South Asians by the Church of England Christian Church Mission Society CMS that were sent to East Africa. And so we were living a very marginal experience. So while we were in Christian circles in East Africa, we were the only brown, you know, missionary kids. And so our experience of the third culture experience was vastly different from the experiences of the white missionary kids who had a completely different experience. And so for me, I found the terms third culture very useful, but but it was very limited. And so as people come up with terms like, you know, the global majority to redefine how they view themselves in these empowering ways, I think it's also important for us to kind of hold this term with attention, you know, to kind of grapple with its limitations and say, yes, it's useful. But what, what are the ways that we can define ourselves? So I am in the process of, you know, coming up with my own term, and I encourage other third culture people who are of the global majority to also come up with terms that they find useful to self identify, self identification is really important when we are engaging in these conversations. So for now, Brown Third Culture serves its purpose, but, you know, over time, there will be other terms that are that are more apt to describe this very marginal intersectional experience. And the third thing I wanted to talk about, which is really very much the reason why I'm connected to this incredible community, is my, you know, my posture as a blending and parents of blending mother specifically, as I'm a Brown woman, raising two sons who are racialized in America as Black, even though they are biracial Black and Tamilian Indian, Black American, Tamilian Indian. And so that is a very challenging and complicated and rich experience. And there are things that I have been exposed to that I would never have been exposed to, because of my proximity to the Black American experience being part of a Black American family. And so while they are biracial, multiracial, multiethnic, however you want to describe them in this country with the history of the one drop rule, we go back to slavery and how if you had so much as one drop of African blood, Black blood, then you were defined as Black because of, you know, the whole racial purity and all the dynamics that went into American chattel slavery and the project that it was. And so that legacy has continued. So even, you know, now they will, they identify as Black, actually they identify as differently. I would say my oldest identifies as Black. And my second, you know, a very big proponent of, you know, the power of self-identifying and having autonomy and agency in doing so. My second son is the one that actually introduced me to the term Blindian, and he refers to himself as Blindian. And I did not know what Blindian was until he said, hey, mom, I think it was like two years ago, he's 13 now. He said, I'm, you know, I'm Blindian. And I was, and I was like, well, I kind of figured out Black and Indian put together. He thought he'd made up the word and then turns out there's an entire thriving community on Instagram. And then that's, you know, the rest is history. That's how I met Jonah, Anisha, and all the incredible people who have given, who have given me a seat at the table and have made me feel seen and have been this network that much needed network because raising Blindian children and being part of the Blindian family is a very specific experience. And, and sometimes often a very lonely experience. And so having this kind of vibrant community and, you know, in which we have a lot of shared experiences, but there's a lot of uniqueness. So we're not only connecting and supporting one another, we're also learning from each other. And so I think that it's important, you know, even I shared Jonah and perhaps Emu Disha, but the racial profiling that my oldest son, who is 16, going to be 17 soon, how he'd experienced after a really massive growth spurt, he's six foot three now, and how just within that span of time in which he experiences growth spurt, the way that the experiences that he had as a result of that, how he was being perceived in our community, how he's being treated, you see how that is something that I never thought I would have to contend with. But this community has been helpful in navigating some of those things. So I will, we can go on to the next slide and I'll hand it over to Aisha. Thank you so much, Martha. I appreciate it. Let me just get back to this perfect. So obviously, the wonderful, wonderful introductions that were done by Frazana, I think explain a lot. And I'm just going to delve a little bit deeper into my background, originally from Pakistan, born in Karachi. And one of the things that I wanted to talk about specifically, that I have discovered through engaging with the community, and kind of delving deeper into my own history, was understanding where I come from. I was born in Karachi, and it's a melting pot. It's always been a melting pot. There's all types of people. It's a thriving, thriving city. There's so much happening. And I learned later on, once I started doing a little bit more research about the East African slave trade and the Arab slave trade. Karachi was a hub for slave trade. And it's obviously a port city. And this is not something that I grew up. I lived in Karachi up until I was nine years old. This was never something that was included in the syllabus. And now that could be something that I left at an age that was a lot earlier. But from my understanding, from speaking to my siblings as well, this is not something that is actively discussed in Pakistan. However, it's interesting to note that most of the slaves that were coming to Karachi were coming from the Arab world. And it was Arab traders that were coming in. And while Karachi was exporting cloth, in return they were getting slaves of African origin, which were called Shibis. And that kind of gave me a little bit more insight into looking at the people that surrounded me while I was growing up that I know I was curious about. Because there were so many different types of people. I wanted to know about their histories. I wanted to know about what made Karachi what it was. And as someone, I will say this, as someone who's in my 30s now, there was a lot about the Indian subcontinent, about Pakistan, about Karachi that I started learning, that was never ever mentioned to me. So when it comes to the Shidi community, there's about 150,000 Shidis that live in the southern part of Pakistan. And most of them live in Karachi in the area of Liari. Now, this is a thriving community, which is operating on its own, but they are subject to extreme, systematic discrimination. But it is not something that is actively spoken about. The Shidi community is probably, so they are known as traders as well. So a lot of them have really excelled in the areas of athleticism as well. But they are obstacles throughout the way for them to be able to succeed and go further, even when it comes to local government. So they're operating in a silo. And I just want to backtrack just a little bit when it comes to the Blidian project community. Martha was saying this, and I want to expand on that a little bit more. Deep down inside, I think there's a need for all of us to have a sense of belonging. And I can say that for myself, that having a community like the Blidian project is the first time in my life that I feel like I belong. I was part of an interracial relationship. And as both Jonah and Martha have said, it was a very isolating experience. There's a lot of elements that you do not understand, that you can't quite grasp, that you have to navigate. And if you do not have the support system, it is extremely, extremely, extremely unique in its experience. And it's always a case of Black communities and Brown communities operating in silos. But there's never the intersection, which is why the Blidian project is so unique in the work that it does. But the most important thing with the community like the Blidian project is we genuinely have a community. I know that there's a lot of places and communities are basically the ethos of every institution right now is cultivating community and making sure you sustain it or even scale it. With the Blidian project, because the need to belong is so genuine, you can see the specificity in each individual that is part of the community, which is celebrated. And that is the lens with which we troubleshoot and tackle all the problems that are happening within our community, which is our culture, our specific lived experience is what we use to move forward as a community. Now, there's a lot more that has been uncovered. There's conversations I've had with Martha, there's conversations that I've had with Jonah about topics that would not necessarily be in our radar, but once we start digging deeper into one specific thing, we uncover so much more. And then we have the support system to be able to do further research. So even when it comes to something so specific as the Sheedy community, I remember having a conversation with Jonah and saying, I remember growing up on the street that I lived, there was a gentleman who used to fix car parts. And I always remember him, he basically was there ever since I was a little kid. And I remember asking my mother, I was just like, where, he seems different. Where is he, tell me more about him. Do you know more about him? And she said, yes, but not really. So there's specific terms, whether it's Makranis, whether it's Habshis, now obviously these terms are not terms which will be necessarily politically correct today, but they would be mentioned almost in a harsh voice because it was not enough to know about where these people originated from. But they were the descendants of the Arab slave trade that was happening in Karachi. And we, for example, Habshi Halla, which is one of the biggest, biggest desserts in Karachi, is named after the descendants of slaves. But no one knows the link between the two. Now, the other thing that I want to talk about is my third culture kid experience. Obviously, born and raised somewhat in Pakistan, I moved abroad to Switzerland. And that has been the foundation of where I transitioned most of my adult life and a little bit in the US as well. Now, one of the things which I want to stress with this is there are so many layers and nuances to the third culture kid experience that you unlock the further that you dig into it, which Martha stressed so importantly because it is more whitewashed than it is through the eyes of a brown or even a brown third culture kid or third culture kids of color. I'm originally Punjabi. However, when I left Pakistan, the only interaction that I had with anything that had to do with Punjab was my family. And my parents would normally speak in Punjabi to each other or with family, but never with us. We predominantly spoke Urdu. But there was always a part of me that knew that I was Punjabi, but I did not know how to connect with that side of myself because I did not have the frame of reference living abroad. Fast forward to a couple of years later, when I was studying in the US, I came, I met a bunch of Punjabi Indian friends who taught me about my Punjabiness, who encouraged me to speak even though it's something that I've learned. It's not something that I actively spoke or actively learned. Having that sense of belonging of understanding, hey, this is an element of you. This is going to unlock something about yourself. I can see how that has anchored me in the work that I'm doing, in the way that I navigate relationships, in the way that I perceive the world and where I am today. So while there are third culture experiences that are, I wouldn't say generic, that are the overarching narrative, there's a lot more depth to what the third culture kid experience can be. But then we also have to think about when do you become a third culture kid? And then when do you graduate to becoming a third culture adult almost? And that is almost the narrative and the question that I think we subconsciously and consciously are hoping to unlock when it comes to the work that we do at The Blinding Project. I remember reaching out to Jonah and I messaged him and I said, hey, I was in an interracial relationship when I was in my teens. I'm no longer in that relationship. However, I acutely remember the feeling of loneliness while I was in that relationship. So whatever I can possibly do to amplify this community, I'm committed to it. Because I would not want anyone to ever feel like that. I wouldn't want anyone in that specific experience to feel like that. And in digging deeper in conversations with our editorial team, even speaking to Martha, even speaking to Jonah, we realized how that is so predominant in most of our lived experiences. But we want to change that lens and make it more of a celebration than just the negative connotation of what it is when Black and Brown cultures gently collide. There's something very, very beautiful about that interaction. And obviously, I don't know if Jonah had mentioned it, we recently just had our first event in New York. Now, while we are digital, and there is an amazing, amazing energy to thrive in community that is digital, as someone who is working for the Blendian project and hoping to live by the ethos of what we have created, meeting that community in person was better than anything that I could have imagined because it was a sense of belonging and celebrating everything that you come with. There's no fear in you showing up as yourself, whether that's elements of being Punjabi, whether that's element of you being a third culture kid, whether that's elements of you being a Blendian parent. Everything is celebrated within the community. And that is not something that I would say I have experienced before or many times in my life. And just to be able to have the community is what I think continues. Having that community is what helps us continue to do the work that we're doing and uncovering all these things that we were not taught, things that we weren't aware of, even when it comes to indentured servitude. I was not aware of that until we started doing research into our workshops. So there is a lot that needs to be uncovered for us to be power as people of color, as black people, as brown people, as Blendian individuals, and to be able to honor that. So that is the majority of the hidden histories from my lived experience. I'll pass it over to Jonah. Thank you so much for your time. Right. So I forgot I put this slide in, but this is just a little bit of the feedback here from several different angles. Yes, it is. Right. So on the left, on the, yes, so on the left, you have a person who is in a relationship in the blending relationship. In the middle, you have okay, this is an actual, what is this? Yes. So this is an actual Blendian person. So somebody like Martha's kids or our kids as well too. And to the right is a person who is in neither. So one thing that I wanted to say is, you know, we talked about this word Blendian, and the word is really kind of grown as a project has grown. I probably haven't done the greatest job of communicating this with people, but it's something that is on the list, things to do. So when I started, it was essentially I was kind of blogging about my life because you needed to generate some conversation amongst the community as to what was going on. So some of it had to be me sharing parts of my own life. So Black and Indian and blending, you know, it made sense at that point in time. And I remember there was a Pakistani woman who reached out to me probably after about a year or a year of doing this. And she said, you know, I'm married to Jamaican and our experience is exact same. I wish that there was something, I wish that it was more, I wish that I could participate is basically what she was saying. And I thought about it for a long time. And I thought about changing the name, and the names just didn't, they just didn't feel right. And for me, a lot of what I think about, and this kind of goes to history and histories and creating our own history, it was almost like, well, why does India and the use of the word Indian need to refer to simply the place that was cut out and carved out by people? Why can't we take that word back? Why can't it actually mean the Indian subcontinent? So subconsciously, so in my mind, and I even talk, we talk about this internally, like, you know, I think of it, you know, being, you know, capturing the whole subcontinent. And the more and more I think about it as well, too, it's almost like it's a mind state. You don't have to be in a relationship with a Black or Indian or South Asian person. It's almost just people that are accepting of the fact of these relationships and these connections and coming together. That's what the spirit and the ethos is of the community and what the name actually says. So I feel like it's a perfect segue into reading these different comments and feedback that have been received because they're from different angles, right? You have somebody who's been in love, but you have somebody who is a child, which is effectively the product of a love relationship. But then you also have somebody who has no connection to it at all. So, you know, saved a couple of these messages and yeah, like we're all saying that the feedback has been just so beautiful and appreciative from people who come out from a lot of different angles. I think the last slide is it. So I think we can. Yes, thank you. That's from our London event there. But thank you for having us on social. You can find us at Blindian Project across all social media and the contact details are there. So we hope that you have enjoyed us spilling our guts here. That was emotional. And I think that we have time for questions. Is that correct, Farzana? Yes. Thank you so much. That was absolutely fascinating and just so lovely to hear all of your narratives and your stories. Yes, it is time now for questions. So let's just ask are there any questions, Ludi, do you know? Oh, I actually have a couple. So do I actually. I'll let you go first, Ludi. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I have two questions. So one is from Arthur. Actually, what I really wanted to ask was how do you and your kids navigate them being third culture kids in a country where the default is for them to be coded as black? I mean, how do you yeah, how do you navigate that? Yeah, that's a beautiful question. And actually, I never thought of them as being third culture kids. But I can see how that might fit given their kind of nuance, intersectional experience. I actually had to make I had to start seeing them as multiracial myself is because I think I don't know if it's because growing up in East Africa and having this proximity to African culture as as a whole, I automatically and knowing the history of this country when I came here, I automatically raised them as black children. Like that was my default. But then in talking to other parents of multiracial children, they stress is really important for your children to be able to self identify, to be able to describe themselves in however they perceive themselves. So I think that first step was really important for me to do because I stopped referring them, you know, referring to them as black boys, black American boys. And, you know, it's an ongoing conversation with them. Like, how do you want to like label yourselves? Or do you want to label yourselves? So that's one thing. And the other thing is just exposing them to, you know, exposing them to both parts of their heritage. You know, talking about different cultural things that affect them, but also things that they are unaffected by because they are kind of remote from it. So the South Asian experience are very remote from it. So I think exposing them to that and encouraging them to just like embrace the fullness of themselves and to not allow what has, what we've noticed is that a lot of people try to exert their, especially in this country, you know, with the racial dynamics, try to exert what they see them as so that they, you know, they've had to have a lot of, I would say even arguments with people, you know, kind of saying, yes, we, you know, like, I'm Asian, I'm Indian, like people, even people of color, you know, Black and Indigenous people of color have, you know, kind of pushed back on them and said, no, you're, you know, how are you Asian? How are you like, because in this country, Asian is seen as more East Asian than it is South Asian. So there's that part. So just them, you know, kind of embracing the fullness and the multiplicity of their identities, I think has been one way, but there are certain things that you're never prepared for, you know, there are certain things that are, are you're learning as they happen with the racial profiling, for example, I mean, that these are things that you have to kind of continually have to have conversations about. And sometimes you realize you're wrong in certain things that you told them, and you have to like go back to them and say, you know, that was not correct. When I made you say that you were Black, you couldn't, it's up to you how you want to identify as one example. So. Yeah, that would be interesting. Thank you. Yeah. And I just, not to go too much into labels, but I think I sometimes think the Asian label is so unhelpful, because it's such a huge part of our, of our world, a huge continent that, yeah, I find it really unhelpful. I'm half Chinese, so I'm half the East Asian, so I find the Asian label to be. Yeah. So yeah, thank you. I don't know, Kat Fazzana, can I ask my second question? I see there's a comment. Oh, yeah, please do. I'll just go quickly. This one's for Aisha. Do you think it's possible to graduate from being a third culture kid? And I'm asking as a third culture kid myself, I guess. I would say that that's the hope. I absolutely would, because obviously, if we look at the longitudinal nature of life, there will be elements where you almost level up. So I hope with more lived experiences and having the support system of communities like the Blinion Project, absolutely, because I think this touches upon what Martha was saying is, how do we pass on the knowledge? And how do we give the resources and the tools to our future generations if we do not strive to understand what our lived experiences have done for us? That is specifically unique to us. My experience might have an overlap with Martha's. My experience might have an overlap with Jonah's, but my lived experience, and I know that this is something that we've spoken about, Jonah, is very much tied to my culture, which is my superpower and the way that I navigate through the world. So while I may not, I might identify as a third culture kid right now, because that is a term that was coined. Yes, there's some elements that apply to me, but there's a lot more that don't. And that exploration is so fulfilling. And meeting people like that, that I absolutely believe that you are into this label, but we do a lot of our lived experience. So I would, I would really hope so. I would really, really hope so that we do. Sorry, just one other thing, if I can just add to that. I think you said it kind of beautifully, Martha, earlier when you're talking about it. You haven't came up with a word yet, but you know that there is a word that needs to be created, right? And I think that's about a lot about, sorry, that is a lot about the work that we do, right? What is the, what systems are broken? How can we fix them? All right, I want to do this. I want to do this. Maybe we can do a campaign to do that. Okay, is it going to work? Well, we never know unless we try. I want to create a new word. I want to create a new world even. So I'd like to think that we can do, yeah, I'd like to think we can do whatever we want to do. And I will also say this that when it comes to lived experiences, I think the term is limiting, as Martha said, because I think we have more than 30 cultures that we uphold. I will very much say that, that it's not just three cultures. Now, is it just a culture that we were born in, the culture we moved to, the culture that we're carrying? Now add our partners to it, add our children's to it. There's a lot of cultures. So that what is it the two cultures giving birth to a very specific third culture, which is specific to Martha, specific to Jonah, specific to myself, specific to Ludi, specific to Frazana. And there isn't much reason that has been done into this. Like, if you look at third culture kids and the term that was coined, there is some literature, but not enough for you to be able to take complete ownership of the label, at least not for me. At least not for me. There's not enough of myself that I can see in the label. I can understand it, but there's more that needs to be defined, at least through the lens of a Pakistani Muslim expat navigating multiple cultures. Yeah, and I think that's why it's good that you've come up with this intersectional identities, because I mean, I think that's part of what makes everyone who they are, is that everyone is at, I mean, so many intersections. But yeah, I think the third culture kid thing is not quite accurate. But yeah, I think, sorry, just to your point to close this off, like, we're all at intersections, but only some of us acknowledge it, right? Right. So if more of us acknowledged it, and this is back to bell hooks and love, then we're in a completely different world, right? Because we are, again, we're worried about casteism. We're worried about what's happening in the States with that, with conversations trying to take place and people stopping the conversations from happening. We're worried about, you know, what's happened with abortion, worried about all of these different things that are happening around the world that are effectively oppressing and hurting people. So yeah, everyone should be at some type of intersection, whether it's by, you know, romance, whether it's by friendship, whether it's by colleagues at work, etc. It's just us actually acknowledging that fact. I was going to say, Jonah, if you have not, please tweet that, because that is a very, very powerful statement. I really, really think that that might be the next tagline for the next event. So can I ask, I've actually got quite a few questions. Actually, I think, Martha, you answered one of them. You were talking about your two sons, and you were talking about how they racially identify themselves. And, you know, so I wanted to ask, how do you feel about that? They are mixed race children. Do you feel there is a conflict between the two cultures? Do they wrestle with that? That's what I mean. You're lovingly and openly showing them both cultures, which is absolutely brilliant. But do they wrestle with it themselves? Do they feel like you were saying, I think one of your children has said, I'm Blindian. But do they sort of go back and forth between the cultures? Yeah, that's also another really good question. Yes. And a lot of it was something that I wasn't even aware of, until I had more conversations with them, because the only connecting point for me in terms of their wrestling of identity issues would be the third culture experience. But for all intents and purposes, when someone sees me, they know I'm South Indian, they know I'm South Asian at the very least. For them, it's a more ambiguous thing. And it's an area in which I have to educate myself, because I don't know what it's like to be biracial, multiracial, however you want to describe their lived experience. It's a very unique and specific one. So for me, learning, reading more narratives from adults, children of multiracial families, and really kind of leaning into learning about what it's like, multiple stories. And it's particularly Blasian. Blasian people sharing their stories. So it could be, you know, that has been very helpful for me to kind of understand that their experience and my experience are different. And there are certain things that I don't quite understand. And that that they can teach me. One of them is like, stop telling us who we are. Because out of a need to protect, we live in a predominantly white college town here in the Midwest of America. Out of a need to protect them, I, you know, raised them to be black. And to move about to be mindful of the way that they move around this, you know, area as black children. And, you know, to be aware of that and to know that they're not going to have the same experiences as other children and even other children of color. So I think, you know, for me, it's just navigating that balance where yes, they're going to be racialized as black. Yes, they're going to be perceived. And sometimes they're seen as biracial. Like sometimes people think that they are white and black when they're with their dad. Because they can pass as that. But whatever it is, they're still racialized as having black ancestry. And so that factors into how they are treated. But then also balancing that and taking the wisdom of another black woman who has like kind of like a mentor to me. And she said, this is how you raise burly black men, because she has she is a mother to a tall African American young man. And she said, you, you teach them to move through the world through society, anti black society, with, with confidence, but also with cautiousness. So it's like, you don't want to teach them that they are less than by the way that you're trying to protect them. But you're also wanting them to be able to move through the world, realizing that people may not see them the way they deserve to be seen. So having that balance has really helped me with them, because there are things that I will never understand. I will want to learn continually and to have a posture of humility, even in my parenting. But it's an ongoing as Asia and Jonah said, all of this is an ongoing thing. Like we're not ever going to know everything, terms and understanding changes and shifts. So just to be open. And I guess that's how I deal with that. Thank you very much. And I also wanted to talk about languages. We do have a comment from one. Oh, sorry, thank you. So it might be pulling that in. And I'm not sure the presenters would want to address that. Can you all see it or should I read it out? I can't from Bernadette Carter. Okay, I'll just quickly read it. And Bernadette, thank you very much for making that comment. She said, this has been enlightening. It may be generational as I from Jamaican descent have always known about the indentured Indians, Syrian and Chinese people in Jamaica. There are many former British colonies where indentured people created families that now have hidden histories as the indentured person never went home. So yeah, yeah, so if you could maybe comment on that comment on Bernadette and once again, Bernadette. Yeah, thank you for posting that. Thank you, Bernadette. Sorry, I missed that. And yeah, it's very good. She's also asked a question. Is there also a difference with Blindian in white spaces? Let me let's take the first one first. Yeah, it's it's it's interesting, like even even when you've mentioned the Chinese bit with Jamaica, it's only like within the last kind of six weeks that I have read about the presence of Chinese in Jamaica and how there was a woman and I forget her name, who was very influential about helping the reggae scene and come out. So I think a lot of times, especially let's say you're living in the States, the educational system is such that you are taught the same things over and over again, World War II, slavery, civil war, and that's it and it's recurgitated over and over. And oftentimes, unless you're actually looking for it, or you live in like New York City, you aren't really made aware of these different things. And I think that kind of points again to to this hidden histories and what it's trying to bring out. It's very important. It's very powerful. One thing I think about my mention New York City is we were doing a corporate workshop with a company and there were people in that session and then it came out that like I think one of the ladies was from Jamaica or from Trinidad. And so she's like, yeah, well, I'm mixed with Indian. And it was like her colleague then is like, oh really, so am I. And it was just like maybe they knew each other, maybe they didn't. But just by visually looking at each other, they both didn't know that they were actually kind of had that same kind of mix. So I think people who live in areas such as Jamaica, the Caribbean, or maybe, you know, Ugandan in South Africa, you know, they're aware of cultures kind of living together. There may be a few instances or more of people actually having romantic relationships. But if you're not in these areas where you actually see populations kind of mixing together, you don't really, you don't really know is my perception and what I've kind of learned from the work that we do. And sorry, Bernadette, there was a, does anyone else want to add to that first piece, Martha or Aisha? No, I was wanting to address that question real quick that she had, which I thought was really the second one. Is that okay? Sure, I'm glad. So, so yeah, so I kind of put it in the chat, but I did, I myself had to be open to the idea of using the word biracial multiracial because I, my I guess unconscious subconscious unconscious and often societal understanding of biracial is usually just the black, white identities. And so part of reclaiming that is like decentering the whiteness of that term, because, you know, it felt like it excluded a lot of biracial people that were non-whites. And so I do think that there's a difference because there isn't the sense of needing to kind of, like I said with my children, they had to kind of advocate for themselves that, yes, we are biracial, yes, we're blending because often they're told by other people, you're not biracial. So I think biracial is contingent upon this idea that whiteness is a part of the identity. And so the blindian identity is often like, you know, obscured because of that and seen as like, oh, you're non-whites, you're just one big lump of a thing, like you're not, you know, you don't have these nuanced intersectional multifaceted things going on, you're just non-white and that's it. And so I do think there's a difference. That's a good question. I'm just going to quickly jump on and add to that. One of the essays in when we see ourselves as a book is from a blindian lady. And it's probably one of the most transparent and honest accounts I have read about someone who is blindian and how they're at the periphery of spaces in general. So even if it is biracial, it predominantly, as Martha said, is addressed towards white and black. So you have all these people that are blindian and do not know where people don't necessarily always understand or know what to do with it. I think we've all been in those situations where if we talk about our lived experiences, people, it's not palatable. It's not palatable. People don't know what to do with this information that you could be from here, here and here, and you're living here, but you speak this many languages, which I don't think people understand can be very, yes, isolating, but it makes you feel like you are not necessarily accepted or welcome. Like there's something not wrong with you, but there is something that is different about you. So when it does come to when it does come to blindian people, there is a lot more work that needs to be done to be able to include them in spaces and make them feel welcome because there is not enough of us out there, but it's getting there. I just want to ask a question or make a point because I'm, you know, and it was a very interesting presentation. I'm wondering whether the experience is different in different parts of the world. So for instance, Bernadette posted in the chat, I know quite a number of people from the Caribbean and also from Africa who are, and I would use the term dual heritage by racial, including in particular in Africa, where they have an African parent and a parent from Syria, Lebanon, places like that. So my own experience of visiting the States is that, I'm not saying exclusively to the States, but in particular in the States, the racialization in terms of putting people into categories is quite strong. But my other comment is actually if we look at African Americans as the term is, the dual or mixed heritage actually goes way back. So, you know, I think that is something that should be acknowledged. And some of that mix is by choice. And as we know, an awful lot of it is not by choice. And I think my last comment would be, at the end of the day, all anybody wants to, all anybody wants us to be treated as a human being with dignity, respect, etc. But the world that we live in means that I use the term African rather than black, that those who are of African descent or who have some aspect of African-ness in their heritage tend to be at the bottom end or the worst end of the scale in terms of human treatment. And so I think there are some, we have a great enough time to discuss all of this, but there are some of those dynamics which go on there within the United States, but also outside. And I'll just finish on this. My daughter, and in fact, I know a few members of my family and friends who've had the call that had reason to visit. I use the term the Indian or the Asian subcontinent. And the treatment, I nearly had to travel and fetch my daughter home. She went as part of a school party because of the way she was being treated. That is how bad she was being treated out there in terms of, in terms of sexualized treatment. So those are all of those dynamics which we as human beings need to grapple with. And I think part of our responsibility, all of us is to grapple with those dynamics, not just on our own behalf, but on behalf of the majority, the others outside of our own lived experience. But it was a really, really useful and interesting presentation from the three of you this evening. So it might not be evening for all of you, but for us in Britain, it's about 6.30. So thank you very, very much. Thank you. Sorry, I had a last question if possible that I was going to ask earlier. I was going to about to talk about languages. And I wanted to ask whether any of your children are learning their mother tongues at all, and how you find that as a way of bridging any gaps, communicating with family. I have many friends of different races and cultures, many, I know a few South African friends who are mixed. They've got Japanese, Indian, Scottish blood in them, got good friends. They're Tamil, but from South Africa, many generations, they don't know Tamil. They don't see it as fair to drag their children off to Tamil lessons, because they don't have a grasp of it. And I was just wondering how you all felt about that, because I'm an Urdu speaker, and I'm also known to a non-Asian. And for me, I wonder sometimes, I think if I had married an Asian or non-Asian, I would have definitely driven it home, because I have a love for Urdu. They're learning Urdu. My children understand Urdu. My daughter's doing lessons at the moment. I'm not even fluent. So can you see what I'm doing? And I sometimes wonder if I press on it more, because I know they're mixed. And it is interesting. That's why I was really curious what you were talking about, Martha, how how your boys see themselves, how Ludi sees herself. And I loved what you were saying as well. You were talking about, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be mixed race, even though I was born in London, Pakistani heritage, very brown house, comfortable most of the time. But so I'm always very curious to know what it's like, actually. I mean, I've got different identities as well. Like I said, I'm British, Asian, born in the 70s, and on all that. But I was just curious to know, I find language is an excellent way just to bring people together, communities. And so I drive that home to my children. I was just wondering, do you do that? Do you find that? I'm just quickly going to say this because I don't have any children yet. But inshallah, when I do, I think language is something that is very important to me because I think I know what have how my mother every single morning before going to school, who would wake us up early and give us a 30 minute Quran lesson and the 30 which I hated it. But in hindsight, it is the best thing that she has done for us because I think language is and this is just my lived experience. I don't expect everyone to have the same experience. Having those languages in the back in your back pocket as an additional layer of understanding when you're interacting with people from your culture. Even if it's like you meet for the first time and they're like, oh, it unlocks something in you that you don't get. So I think in application theory, yes, I would absolutely love to in application. It's a different situation because I know it's not that easy. It's not that easy because children will not necessarily want to sit there for a language that they don't understand why they have to learn. So we'll see. I'll get back to you in a couple of years. Thank you very much. And I'll just quickly go to Jonah can answer as well. Yes, so this is a very hard question for me to answer because I don't want to blame my parents, but they raised me in Belgium. And so I was Dutch, French, and then England. I went there did not know any English, you know, I was put in special class and everything. And then we went to East Africa. So they raised they would talk to us in Tamil. But then also it was like a mix of Tamil and English. So I learned to understand the language. Unfortunately, I'm the one of three, three children that did not learn to speak it because I was the one person that didn't spend time in India for an extended period of time. So both my siblings went and spent a year or more there for various reasons. And so they were able to pick up the language, but none of us can read. And so that makes it really hard as much as I would like to teach the children to be able to, you know, but I as much as I am learning about the language and my culture, I share it with them and their eyes glaze over when they glaze over. But I'm hoping that that will inspire them later on to do their own research, which is what I did because growing up, I wasn't comfortable with my Indian identity. Like when I was in Europe, I wanted to be white. And then when I was in Kenya, I wanted to be African, like I did not want to be Indian. And so embracing that has caused me to want to learn. And I hope that is what will be their experience down the road. Yeah. So for me, interesting, a great question as well too. Our kids are eight and six. Now I know as I've grown older and, you know, grown to love, you know, being Ugandan. So let me go back. I think a lot of it has to do with where you're actually at and where you're situated at and where the kids are at because being in a place, if they don't actually see other people who are speaking that language makes them think, well, why am I learning this? I remember trying to learn French when I was in seventh grade. And like on steelo, cahier, all these different things. But you'd never use that. So it was like, okay, I know how to use pen. But when you actually got over to the country or speaking with those people, they didn't speak like that. So it was later on that I actually got this appreciation. And as you, I think, kind of grow into your identity, language is a great, a big part of identity. And just like I used to, like you said, you know, whether it's, you know, you're getting a ride from somebody or you're going to the store, or you want to tell somebody that you really like their outfit or something, being able to communicate in that language is just so powerful. Our kids don't, my wife speaks Telugu. And I can hear Luganda about, I'd say 50%, let's say, but it's funny when they'll hear like, my in-laws like speaking Telugu, they'd be like, why are you speaking Indian? You know, they're not even to the point that they're like, why don't you don't speak Telugu, they're like, right? I'm almost speaking Indian. And, but I think just thinking about how they've grown up and you know, how the end of the year goes for us, and we roll from Diwali into Christmas and kind of seamlessly. I think it will just be, you know, they love Bollywood movies and things like that. I think it'll just be a matter of time until they start taking more of an interest into, you know, kind of learning exactly where they're from. So that's great. Actually, I have a friend who's a good friend of mine who's Telugu speaker. And when they don't want their son to know what they're saying, what they're saying, you can Hindi. And that's a good tactic. I will say this. When Jonah randomly just says, okay, Tike in the middle of conversations, it definitely, you know, just is a joy that is so rarely experienced that you feel seen. And I think that's ultimately what we look for, right? Whether it's through our words, whether it's through our actions, we just want to be celebrated in our uniqueness. Absolutely. Yep. Lovely. Let's just see. Are there any more questions from anybody or any more comments or thoughts? Ah, there is something in the chat. I'm just seeing, is that ah, yes, but Bernadette has said, my mother was mixed Jamaican and Chinese. The Chinese language, I'm sorry, it's my language was not passed on by my grandfather. This was the same for all of her dual friends. My aunt Joy is Indian Jamaican, but has no language from her father nor access to that side of a family. I think the modern connected world has improved this. Very interesting. Fascinating. Thank you. I think as a mixed race person, I can say that when I was younger, me and my siblings were just not interested in learning the language. It was just, my mother just gave up because it was like battling the tiny kids and she had, she was a nurse, so she was working crazy hours and she just gave up in the end and I'm the only one who can speak any Chinese because mostly I was self-taught in the end because by the time I got interested in that, I was in my mid teens. So, but my, my, my siblings, they just did not interest to, they can't speak any Chinese at all. So I think this is quite common. I was going to say, SOAS has some amazing, amazing language courses, at least from like, and this is me giving my age when I was thinking of going to university. You guys have some amazing, amazing language courses and quite specific languages as well, which is, and that's how I've always associated SOAS is, is knowing that it is an institution and a space which celebrates the, the nuances in the different cultures. I don't know if there's a space like that in the US, but SOAS has always been the one that has stuck out to me when it comes to institutions. Well, that's amazing, that's great. But yes, so many different Asian-African languages then can be, can be taught, I'll talk here at SOAS. I think we've run really over time. Yes, just over time. Fascinating conversation with you guys and, and thanks to the audience for coming along and for participating. It's been amazing. I've learned so much and I'm the rest of you have as well. Thank you so much and hopefully we'll come to you in the library soon. Definitely. Please, please come do some research. Yeah, just before we finish, can we give a shout out for, for, so from next academic year, we will be doing more hidden histories sessions, both online and in person. And in, in the UK, we celebrate Black History Month in October. So we will be organizing a whole series of events in October around Black African history, including the History of Black History Month in the UK and also a book launch, which is going to focus the book is about African and Caribbean people and the history of African and Caribbean people in Britain. So do keep an eye on our blog or do keep an eye on our Twitter. Do share with us anything that you feel would be of use for the future. And let's make each of us our small contribution that we can to making the world a better place for everybody. Well said. Thank you so much. Thank you very, very much. Thank you everybody for having us. Appreciate it and we'll see you soon. Thanks and we will be sharing the video scene. It will also be up on SOAS YouTube in the next few days. Okay, if you just let us know whenever that's available, we'll happily share with our networks and people. We'll do, definitely. Have a lovely day guys. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good evening. Bye. Bye bye. Bye.