 Until all are free, that's what it has tagged for this year, seven years after the Chiba Girls were kidnapped, the Nigerian government of course has been asking numerous questions and its efforts with freeing these remaining 112 school girls. This morning to have a discussion on what the last seven years has been like and what next we've invited Bukala Shurnibare to join us, she's a member of the Bring Back Our Girls group. Thank you very much for joining us, Bukala. It's a pretty difficult conversation to have mostly because it makes you and every other person to reflect on what the last seven years has been like for these girls and for their parents, where they are today, have they been sold, where they raped, what exactly have they been through in the last seven years? So let's start with that. It is one more day, one more month, one more week and still no sign of these girls. What have the Bring Back Our Girls group or what do you think the last seven years has been like and the whole struggle to find these girls? I think if we analyze when we do an analysis of what the last seven years has been like we literally have to unpack the different categories of people that have been affected in the last seven years. First is the girls themselves, the fact that young girls went to school just the same way any other child will go to school and they just did not come back. That in itself is harrowing the abduction itself that it happened and if we listen to a lot of, if we follow a lot of the stories that happened when they were abducted, the fact that they were taken from their school, they were deceived by guys who were just wearing military uniforms and then for days they were going through bushes and they dressed at 57 of them escaped within the first week and then to have 219 of their friends just taking like that. I think for the girls it has not been easy and from the stories and the experiences that have been shared by the girls that have returned, it just gives us an idea of what they are going through. We know that they have been snakebites, we know some of them have died as a result of so many things. So to just have their life changed all of a sudden for the girls it is actually a very sad experience. One can never explain or quantify what this effect would have been on them. Girls who just wanted to be educated and they have themselves having to be married up to terrorists having to be exchanged, you know, that life, that's for the girls. Let's now go to the parents of the girls, the relatives of the girls. We know a lot of the parents have died as a result of many things, high blood pressure, mental issues. I've been to Chibok a number of times, I've spoken to some of the parents and I know that one of the things that you know is quite worrisome for me is how this parents cannot just explain the pain they are going through, they don't have the words to explain, depends that they are going through. I'm having to watch that, I'm having to see that they can't even describe it, it's in itself difficult. Some of them have died, some of them are still sick mentally, psychologically, some of them just do not have their lives all over again. We say that mothers face these pains a lot, fathers also go through this pain too a lot. We know that fathers are usually slightly unbreaking apart. We know that fathers usually are closer to their daughters and we cannot even describe what these people are going through, their friends, their communities just to have their children taking. And for us as the complainants that have been on this, people have gone through a lot just complaining on this issue. There has been character assassination, people have been insulted, the mental torture of just having to talk about this every day for seven years has not been easy. So if we have to look at how this has affected people, then we have to really unpack the different communities of people that have been affected. I like to jump in here. This picture you just painted, it's so dark, it's traumatic. But you also talked about you, the campaigners and all of that. I remember when this happened, you and your group did a fantastic job as a pressure group. We kept seeing you in Abuja at the square daily and all of that. But we don't see that anymore. Have you lost some steam? Is it because of the character assassination? What is going on? Do you still pressure government to bring back the girls? You see, one thing I must first establish is that the campaign for the rescue of the triple girls is for all of us. Even though some of us came out as the ROX or the frontline campaigners, injustice to one person is injustice to everyone. So it is everybody's responsibility. If a child in Chibok has been taken, my child has been taken, your child has been taken, everybody's children have been taken. In terms of the last seven years and how we have seen the fact that we no longer see bring back our girls' campaigners on the frontline every day we used to. That is a given. We really need to, and I've gotten this question a lot, that oh, we no longer see you at the Unity Fountain again. People are no longer coming out again and know that. It's literally expecting, campaigning on the same thing every day, coming to the Unity Fountain every day is not an easy task. People have lost stuff, people have lost friends, money, their lives, just coming out on a daily basis. However, I must say that we are no longer coming to the Unity Fountain. And I must say also that not coming out to the Unity Fountain on a daily basis is largely due to coronavirus. By the time coronavirus happened, it was one of the decisions that was made at the strategic team level that we cannot be going out any longer. But up until that time, at least one, two, five, ten people were still coming out to the Unity Fountain on a daily basis. And that we are not carrying placards and going on the streets the way we were doing at the beginning does not mean we no longer question government. In advocacy or strategic advocacy, there are different ways you could do the direct marches and the protests that we usually do. But there are other salient back end approaches that can be done. I recall when we were developing the strategic plan for the bring back our girls at the beginning, in which I was part of the development. One of the things that we had to do was what we call scenario building, where we looked at what this is what the first year would look like. This is what, if it ever goes beyond that, even though we didn't think it was going to go beyond 30 days, after we did our first march on April 30, you know, if it ever goes beyond that, this is what it will look like. This is what it will look like at different points in time. And so I'm not surprised that this is what the situation has been. But I must say that it is not a reflection of whether we are tired or whether we are no longer campaigning for the girls or whether we are no longer as passionate as we were at the beginning of this campaign. All right. I read through a report yesterday and it says the bring back our girls group says it will continue to seek international support to go on with its advocacy until the remaining Chiba girls are free. So tell us about that. You know, what kind of international support are you looking out for? And how do you think that would work? One of the things we have done since the beginning as a strategy is for us to get international support. And by international support it just simply means that we keep calling on partners, on friends, on governments across different parts of the world just to join and not just calling on the Nigerian government to ensure that their primary responsibility is being done. But most importantly also, you know, to keep putting pressure and keep doing everything within their power without violating the principle of non-interference in international law. You know, so it's just for us to just keep going to people that we know that even by the very basis of international law seeking international cooperation and support is part of what is provided for. So when we say we will continue keeping seeking international support, it is just simply going to our friends. Those that have been campaigning on this issue are not just those of us in Abuja or Nigeria. There are people in New York, in London, in different parts of the world, you know, who are campaigning. And so doing that just means that we are joining forces and we are asking, you know, governments across the world to also support. Let's not also forget that the United Nations also have a responsibility to every citizen of the world across the world. So when we also say international cooperation, we are also seeking those international organizations and communities. You know, now that we talked about international support, like it or not, your group has become very, very important. I mean, when you talk about abductions in Nigeria, you always think about the BBOG group. So I wonder how you feel about the series of abduction that have also taken place, not just the Chibok girls now. You've had so many and it keeps happening over and over again. Like I said, I wonder how you feel about it. Also, do you intend to advocate for these other people who have been abducted? Thank you. Do we intend to? No, we do not intend to. Yes, we have been. It is not a question of intention. It is a question of what we have been doing. For every time there is an abduction, and like you rightly said, going back our girls have been synonymous to abductions generally, campaigning against abductions. And so it's not even about abduction of Chibok girls or abduction of girls, but abductions of school children generally. And you know, like you also rightly pointed out, there has been series of abductions of children. Besides the April 2014 Chibok girls abduction were 276 girls were taken. In 2018, February 19, we know that 115 girls were taken. And that's why we still have them. And as though we thought that was all, if you looked at the gap between 2014 and 2018, one would expect that the Nigerian government would have learned from the Chibok girls abduction to put measures in place to ensure that we do not have a repeat of not just abduction of school children, but that kind of large-scale abduction. And so four years down the line, we still saw the abduction of the Dabchi girls. But as though that was also not enough, between December 11 of 2020 and February 26 of 2021, we've had other four abductions, you know, right from the 344 children that were taken in Karkara-Karstina state. That was in December of 2020. December 2020 as well. We have 80 children taken from Islamiya schools in Karstina state. In February 2021, we had 27 children taken from Karkara in Ninjasti. And even in February 2021, February 26 precisely, we have the abduction of the Djangebe children, over 300 of them. I think one of the significance of a day like this is for us to put the responsibility back on the table of the duty bearer. We cannot have a country where abductions like this keep taking place. When a government, by section 14 of section 2B of the Constitution, has a responsibility, a primary responsibility for the security and life of the people. And by chapter 2 of our Constitution, every child in Nigeria has a right to education. So abduction of school children is the direct violation of their fundamental rights, not just nationally guaranteed or constitutionally guaranteed, but even internationally guaranteed. So I think a day like this, where we're commemorating the sad abduction of the Chiba girls is also a day for us to say that we cannot have a nation where it has become a norm that school children have been abducted. The Nigerian government must do better in ensuring that our schools are safe in adhering to all of the principles enshrined in the safe school declaration in making sure that there is minimum standard for the security and safety of schools so that all children can indeed go to school freely and enjoy that fundamental rights, absolutely. I also want you to speak on the reaction of the Nigerian government so far. From 2014, it was a different government. Now, of course, the current administration has taken over. How would you rate their reaction with regards to finding these 112 girls that are still unaccounted for? Does it bring back our girls group yet the support that it needs? Do you think that they have good enough excuses why these girls have not been able to be rescued so far? Thanks for that question. The reaction has sadly been different. If we want to sincerely analyze what all of these abductions that I've talked about, but the reaction could be pinned to different factors, and I won't go into all of those debates that happen around the fact that where school children were taken at a particular time in a particular place, oh, they were quickly brought back, I won't go into that debate. But one of the things that I've seen is the fact that first is first established that those abductions should not have taken place in the first place. We should not be having our children being taken. That is one. The other thing to then be said is that what we have seen in the abduction of the triple girls, the triple girls particularly, we saw that there was, you know, denial of the fact that abduction took place, and then that first start for a number of these. And then as a result of that, we have all of these girls being taken or being ferried away for a long time. And we know that security experts have repeatedly said that the first 48 to 72 hours of 24 to 48 hours actually of any abduction is critical to the eventual outcome of that situation. But what we have seen is, you know, that sense of irresponsibility on the part of the government, not just the fact that the abductions take place, but also the fact that the swiftness with which we would expect, you know, actions to be taken is not being taken. If a child is taken in sales clients, you know, literally every security architecture is deployed just to make sure that that child is brought back like immediately. That is one child. How much more when we are talking about tens and hundreds of children. And so this drills down to our very basis, the architecture of our early warning and rapid response system. If we don't have that kind of structure in place, if we don't have that kind of system in place, then the government cannot act outside of the structure of the systems it has actually created. We don't have that architecture where we can say that there are systems within our schools, especially for a country that has recorded or that we keep seeing abductions of children that have become, you know, commercialized, commercialized. And so one would expect that reactions would be based on an early warning and rapid response system specifically designed for schools and specifically designed for the different kinds of factors that, you know, describes or relate to different sectors. The way you would set up the early warning and rapid response system, for instance, if not east, is different from the way you would set up, for instance, in south west. Because in north east, there is the intersection of violent extremism that is going on there. In south west, we are not seeing much of that, but we're seeing more criminality. The same thing with north west, you know. So what would expect that we should be able to have that kind of system to back what sort of response the Nigerian government would be having, such that an avid Nigerian would be able to sit down and say, if abduction takes place, we know that the government has a system in place for some kind of child or children to be brought back into this for a while. So my assessment of the Nigerian government's response to abductions in terms of making sure that they have got back and all of that is actually tied directly to the system that we know is not existing. Until the Nigerian government can have such kind of architecture. Early warning and rapid response that is specifically targeted tied to school or that is specifically for schools. And the good thing is the safe school declaration has actually laid that very basic for such kind of people. Until we have that, then the government will only be reactionary or will only be responding based on expediency. As a result of that, we may not be able to get a quick response as we expect. Our hearts and our prayers go to those girls, wherever they are, including those who are still in captivity that were never recorded or were never named. From reports, still dozens who have been kidnapped that never made it to news media. So our hearts go out to everyone who is in a situation like that. And of course, for their parents, thank you so much for the work that you do and for speaking with us this morning. We look forward to speaking with you again, hopefully with great news. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. All right. Tough interview. Stay with us here on the breakfast. We're going to be back after this short break and we're moving into talking about the 2023 elections and the idea of early campaigning. We'll be back.