 OK. So welcome, everyone, to this exciting panel discussion on blockchain in energy sector. I'm Satoshi Chaudhary, the director of emerging technology for paramount software solutions. And today I have with me some interesting people who are going to share their insights on how blockchain is impacting the power sector and the whole world of energy. And I'll request the panelists to give a snapshot of their profile starting from Joss. Yeah, so good morning, good evening. My name is Joss Lerling. I'm a distinguished architect certified by the open group working in the Global Competitor Center for Energy, Environment, and Utilities at IBM. And I'm the global CTO for blockchain solutions in the industry sector. So and that's basically the track record. Later on I will share some of the projects that I've done. So almost 20 of which I think a dozen I can share how we move forward. And I think we also will address a little bit a very interesting success story that we have implemented using Hyperledge Fabric. Thanks, Joss. That was really exciting and a request to Veronica. So good morning to everyone or good evening, whatever you are. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Veronica Garcia. I'm the CEO and founder of Bitlumens, where we work with IoT and mainly smart metering devices that we have actually designed and manufactured. And we connected to blockchain technology for two different use cases. One of them is for carbon tokenization and the other one is for to give the end user mainly the person that it's consuming electricity with a financial track record. So we basically work with renewable power plants in rural communities. And we bring our meters in there and deploy them and connect them to the blockchain. So that's what we are doing. Thanks, Veronica. Ravi, Ravi, I guess you are muted. OK, we can go to Preeti. Yeah. Hello, everyone. I'm very happy to be here. And this is Preeti Kumari working as a blockchain researcher and architect at Paramount Software Solutions. And at Paramount Software Solutions, we are working on a few blockchain energy sector projects, some of them including peer-to-peer energy trading platform, then carbon consumption trading tracking. And apart from these, I am on the course of completion of my PhD. And I'm very excited about cutting edge technologies, whether it is AI, ML, big data, IoT, or quantum computing. And I'm really looking forward how these technologies are going to fit with blockchain. Yeah, that's all. Thanks, Preeti. And Ravi, can you unmute yourself? Or I guess we will move ahead. OK, so I guess we can move to like today we are talking about blockchain in the energy sector. So what's so special about blockchain and how does it relate with the energy sector? I would like, Joss, to share your thoughts first. And I'll request the other panelists to follow it. Yeah, so thank you. So I think that the image that's on the screen now since the start is my way of visualizing what's happening in the energy sector. So you see in more and more regions that the regulation is going on, creating unbundled markets. So the traditionally vertically integrated are being all different kind of companies. And the last, I think, five years, the energy transition is very high on the agenda, driven by the renewable generation, which is more distributed, new way of collaboration like virtual power plants, new micro grid solutions. And it gives a new dynamic in our ecosystem. And it basically asks for multi-stakeholder collaborations, which are with very complex problems. And I think the fit with the blockchain pattern is very, very evidently as it addresses those collaborations in ecosystems with which you can build intelligent workflows, connecting all the different players that are needing to collaborate in order to get the optimum customer experience that we all want to have. Combined with the reliability that we are used to, especially in Europe and other parts in the world, for a very reliable electricity supply, as we are becoming more and more dependent on electricity for our day-to-day lives. I would like to jump in there to describe a few of these very interesting use cases digging into the points that Josh just mentioned. For instance, the National Energy Commission in Chile deployed in, I believe, was in 2018 a platform where they would enter their data on Ethereum blockchain. And they did this because they wanted to trace data and share it across different stakeholders in the power sector. In particular, they were interested on security, how they can provide better security and transparency of this data and try to be mindful of hacking attacks and for that they were using the public blockchain. The other aspects that I think are quite interesting are the digitalization of the energy sector. And there, as Josh said, there are many players that are actually having very specific actions in this sector, like, for instance, when it comes to IoT, smart metering devices, the transmission system operator, the EV vehicles that are coming into play, and then how you can actually provide better solutions for decentralized energy systems where each household can be a node that fits the grid. And for that, there is a very interesting project here in Switzerland where there is the TSO is when, of course, the balance of supply and demand of these particular aggregators, meaning the households that have batteries at home and whenever you have your battery charged and you want to fit the grid, you can do that, creating contracts that are in the blockchain. So I do believe that these use cases are going to be quite interesting to see, to analyze, and also to find collaborations across different countries. Well, I appreciate those insights and Preeti, what do you think about that? Preeti, I guess your screen is raised. Can you hear us, Preeti? OK, so maybe we can move to the next part of our discussion, and that is about successful case studies. So Veronica, you shared some insights, and Preeti, I mean, Josh has shared some of the insights. I want to know, according to you, what are the successful case studies that you have encountered so far based on your implementation of different blockchain projects in the energy sector? So, Josh, I would like you to take a lead. You mentioned about 20 projects, so I want you to start, and maybe Veronica can take it from there. OK, yes, sure. Yes, so my experience is that most utilities want to have the innovative solutions that will bring them to the front page of all international newspapers. But those use cases are very, very hard to find. And it's very unlikely that those use cases will be successful, giving that general corporations in the energy industry are quite risk-reversed. So that is quite a challenge on itself. The second part of use cases are those use cases that will improve current running processes. And there, there is a very hard business case to make to implement new technology. So what the most successful projects are, in my experience, is those use cases that augment the current operations or open up new markets or those kinds of operations. And I can show a list here of my personal project dashboard. So you see that we have a six-phase approach to identify what the different use case is in regard to adoption. So identification and technical feasibilities, building a demonstrator, building a minimal viable product to go into the market, and then scale until the minimal viable ecosystem where all the financial accelerators start to kick in and everyone is making benefit, and then go to market scale. So, and here's a list of use cases. So where you see, I think, three major projects. So the first one is grid balancing. I will talk about it a little bit later on. But that's a new innovative way of solving some of the issues with renewable energy. So the third one is supply selection at public charging polls, which is on the back of a new EU regulation that demands multiple suppliers to be concurrently delivering energy at your doorstep. So that's a quite new requirement that all the utilities need to implement. So and the other highlight, the one to highlight, is building energy management. That's a flex platform that we have built for the city of Copenhagen. And that's now being destined to go to market scale as well. So and here I think I'll stop a little bit and ask for Veronica to chime in before I dive into the first project in a little bit more detail if that's OK. Yeah, thank you, Josh. I think it's, as I mentioned before, it's extremely important to view these use cases and understand also some of the regulatory constraints and the constraints in the technology itself, right, that before we bring this to market. So I'll talk about these challenges a little bit later too, but I think it's very, very important to understand them and to really be successful in a project. So to us, one of the very important use cases that we have seen is how we can actually tokenize carbon. And for that, Hyperledger has an amazing group. It's open source that they are working very, very hard since, I think, years now on this. And what they basically do is they run the calculation of, let's say, a carbon offset or a renewable energy certificate on chain. So we are doing pretty much the same. We are running it on Hyperledger Fabric 2.2. And then later on, we can tokenize using layer two type of a theorem, you know, like this guy. And then, of course, this has to be somehow certified and brought into the marketplace. For that, we are taking a slightly different approach where we try to certify it after the calculation takes place. And this will, of course, we will be able to really understand what are the emissions on different entities in the power sector. And then this will open the door to additional use cases, mainly on the financial side of things, where, for instance, could have an issue above on chain, which usually is cheaper, according to HSBC, at least. And then later on, you can have the coupon paid on these carbon credits, which could be quite interesting since the carbon market is or the price of carbon is increasing. And that's at least what we are betting in the future. So these are some of the additional use cases that I see that, at least in the European Union, they are being deployed with a lot of potential to additional use cases, in particular, in the sovereign debt market, where you can bring additional liquidity to these type of financial instruments to really reduce carbon emissions over time. I would like to add a few use cases to what Varanika already mentioned over there. So as she already mentioned about the financial transactions, so blockchain can provide instant payment settlement. So usually, now what happens, it takes around 60 to 80 days for the compensation of whoever is selling the energy over there. And for small businesses, it is very important if they get instant payment settlement over there. And we can do it using smart contracts very well. Apart from this, if we consider about security, then auditing, then since all the data or transactions are recorded on blockchain and chronological order, so whoever goes for the auditing, it is very instant for them. And they can do it very easily, the auditing purpose, that is not going to take a long time as it is taking as of now. So these are some important use cases I can take. Thanks, Priti. I appreciate that. And interesting insights, you guys are actually merging the different verticals, the power sector, and then you are bringing the financial sector and you are trying to build and create some kind of resilience in this. That's really nice insights. And Joss, you have actually demonstrated out of the many different projects, there were three different projects which were maybe in large scalability. You are looking for some degree of large scale implementation. So if you may share a little bit of insights on those projects that looks to scale or that are in wide scale implementation. And I want to share a little different perspective and some detail on all the projects. So all the projects that listed here are run on Hyperlegia Fabric. And there is no cryptocurrency involved in either of them. So what we implement and do is to make a separate layer of building those multi-party workflows possible and do not combine it with the cryptocurrency and financial transactions. So one of the reasons to do it is the energy industry is regulated as we all know. So it's quite elegant to use a permissioned blockchain like Fabric. And it has huge benefits to the sector. And especially in the first one where we are almost building and running a real-time operation. So the finality of the transactions is below two seconds. And that's a very crucial capability of Fabric that we leverage that makes that use case available and fly. And for instance, the third one is a spin-off of an disaggregate billing case that we have implemented. And on the disaggregate billing, the case is that if you can split the kilowatt hour that is consumed by different devices and can allocate it to the correct account, you can then accommodate different contracts and different pricing schemes for the different usage of the electricity to make it very concrete. So if you own a company, if you drive a company-owned car and you charge it at home, then you charge it on your retail contract. And the retail contract usually have different price points than wholesale contracts for companies B to B. So with this disaggregate billing solution, you can then allocate the kilowatt hours consumed by your vehicle to the corporate account and subtract it from the total amount recorded by your smart meter. So you only pay for in your retail contract the actual use of your home. And that's of interest of a fleet owner because they can then purchase the energy cheaper than they will do in the current situations where they compensate you financially. So the corporation is paying retail prices for a wholesale energy consumption. So now we are implementing it at 2,000 public charging stations in the Netherlands, where you can select your own supplier when you show up at the public charging station. And the same mechanisms apply. And also new retailers that are stepping into this new capability find themselves in a different market that they don't sell energy to fixed home connections. But they can sell you energy when you're on the go on charging stations that support this capability. So they see new offerings and new revenue streams coming in. So and then is it that time to go deep dive on the master project? I think we can go into that absolutely. These are really fascinating facts. And we have got Ravi back with us right now. And I think we can hear him now. It looks again. Thanks again, Ravi. Thank you. I hope you guys hear me now. I could hear you as everybody knows. Thank you. Yeah. OK. So what I would like to know further is you have mentioned about that hyperledger fabric fits very well with a regulated environment. When we go to implement a project in, let's say, for any public sector utility companies which are highly regulated or any kind of environment which is regulated, can you share more insights? What are those traits of hyperledger fabric that are actually favorable for any kind of utilities to think about or give priority while taking the decision on a blockchain? Oh, yeah. So I think that there are a number of arguments that are resonating in the sector. So one, if you run the hyperledger fabric, which is a permissioned blockchain, then you can have very lightweight consensus algorithms. And that means that your CPU footprint, your energy footprint to running the blockchain is very, very low. So we run these blockchains in a handful of Intel servers. So you can run it on cloud. You can run it on premise. You can run it, whatever the case may be. And we also have implemented hybrid multi-cloud solution. So one entity runs it on Azure. The other entity runs it on IBM cloud. The other entity runs it on premise. And it builds a total blockchain for that use case. So giving the very low energy footprint is a must. The second one is that the lightweight consensus algorithms allows you to have very fast finality of transactions. And third and not least is that if there are no cryptocurrencies used to compensate the miners or actors in the network, because it's not necessary because the infrastructures are lightweight, your transaction costs are not influenced by trading of cryptocurrencies. So your business case runs on a very predictable transaction cost. So that's the third reason why I think the fabric one is a very elegant one to use in this industry. Thanks, Dr. Kaurav. We have a few more points over here. So with Fabric, now we get an option of using Fabric private chain code. That is not production ready yet. But we can run smart content inside Intel as GXN Clip. And that makes it a very secure environment. And even if you want to go for any bidding, then we can also use this confidentiality framework, Fabric private chain code, because whatever the data will be provided in the system, that won't be visible to anyone, not even the OXNIR or not even the NAA administrator and all. And apart from this, as Josh already mentioned, like the PPS transaction costs again, so Fabric has a higher PPS than any other existing frameworks. Thanks, Preeti. I'll get back to you on the question on the security of blockchain. But I would like to hear from Veronica her thoughts. And then we will move on to the next segment. So Veronica, over to you. Yeah, so we started in 2018 using Ethereum, actually, Ethereum public blockchain. And what we understood, we were using it to pay for the electricity bills basically of solar home systems. And what we understand fairly quickly was that even though we didn't need the transaction to be immediate, the gas that you needed was still fairly high. And therefore, the financial cost was just high. So therefore, I completely agree with Josh and Preeti. We run that use case, and we decided to move to a hyperledger fabric, which is extremely easy to use, plug and play. And then it's cheap when it comes to the operational side of things. And on top of that, you can also using different hyperledger platforms, you can also run smart contracts and have, I think it's called FPC chain code, where you can wrap these smart contracts in a way that you have an enclave. So you don't need to share information. You just understand that that information and that data is there, so it's really private. And different actors can actually work together in such platform without knowing, let's say, very particular details on a patent, for instance. So I think all these different features are fantastic. So I need one more point to it. So though there is not a particular cryptocurrency in the system, but hyperledger fabric supports Pungible as well as non-Pungible tokens in terms of ERC-20 and ERC-721. So we get a very good tokenization system over here. Yeah, hyperledger brings a very versatile and collaborative platform all together. And it has, it covers all the segment of registry bidding and then clearance. So maybe you can take it in the other level, right? In the bank level or in the next offline as well. But hyperledger gives you end to end. I have a follow-up question now, Preeti. You raised a very interesting point on the security. So do you think blockchain can offer or add any layer of security to the existing power sector? Because quite often we hear that there are some issues or challenges with cybersecurity hacks or potential hacking activities that might impact the greed, the overall greed or the operation of the power sector as a whole. So any thoughts on that? Definitely, I think so. Because blockchain is secured by design. So how it is secured? It is immutable, a hash of one block is getting added to another block. And if anybody tries to change, make changes to any of the blocks, it is gonna reflect on the whole blockchain. And apart from that, it is distributed in nature. So there won't be a single computer who will be making change in the blockchain. Whatever goes on the blockchain, that needs the consensus among all the organizations or participants. And apart from that, everybody needs to have an identity to sign any, digitally sign any transaction over there or to perform any process or to call any chain code function over there to execute any transaction over there. And if I talk about in the energy sector, so for smart grids, they smart grid relies mainly upon automation and remote access. So in that case, authorization and authentication becomes a prominent issue for them. And if we put smart grids, just a use case on the blockchain, we can solve this problem of authorization or authentication both altogether. Because whoever will be doing any transaction over there, first the blockchain will check whether they have a perfect identity with them or not. They have whether they have got that identity from a certified authority or not. And then we can use access control mechanism using smart contract. So whatever the functions they are trying to control because whatever the data goes on the blockchain that goes only through the smart contract function. So we can put access control with the smart contract and we can check like whether the person who is trying to perform this action, whether they are authorized to do that or not. And since if we go for a permission blockchain network, since all the participants are known to each other. So if anybody tries to perform any malfunction over there, it is easily trackable. And they are trying to, they are under the impression that okay, persons know me here. So I don't want to create any bad impression of them. I want to continue business with them. So I have to perform this legal set of actions or these processes that our business can run. So I think blockchain will put a pressure and the everything in place such that security process the practices can also go. Okay. Those are excellent insights. Now I would like maybe Josh to take a lead. Privacy and security go hand in hand. So pretty address the immutability, the distributed nature about, I guess certificate authorities and other things from a privacy standpoint, because if we talk about businesses like regulated entities, many of the data points need to be private. How does hyper ledger or blockchain as a whole can facilitate and support the ecosystem in the regard with regards to privacy? Yeah. So there are a number of solution patterns that are available, right? So creating channels will guarantee the first layer of defense for commercial privacy. So that your transactions are not shown to other parties in the ecosystem. So it's not only that what Piri was discussing that you want to understand and hide the details of the transaction but even transaction volumes between. Yeah, go ahead. I don't think I was hearing anything. Josh, are you there? Yeah, I'm here. We can hear you Veronica. No, no, no, but I don't hear Josh. Sorry. We can hear Josh. Yeah, I can hear you Josh. Okay. Yeah, so I, go ahead, Josh. I will continue, right? So it's not only that you want to protect the transaction details between parties because that's confidential, but only even the volume of transactions and the time of day when those transactions occur gives insight into your competitive environment. So I think that's a very elegant solution to use channels to shield that aspect as well. So there are quite a number of layers that are available. So last but not least, we recently acquired the patent for zero knowledge proof so that you even prevent the data from entering the blockchain but using zero knowledge proof gives the recipient the trust that the actual delivery in the real environment is still trustworthy, yeah? And that's the lead into my other use case if I can. In addition to what Josh just said, I would like to just mention one private data collection over there. So with channels, we get a set of private nodes and inside that channel, we can implement private data collection. So the parties who are interacting or who are interested, does that a price? Only price we want to hide from other organizations or other participants, right? So we can keep price between two organizations itself and we can store that price in a private database and a hash of that price will go on the blockchain and later on, if we want to check that price, whether that has been altered or not, we can check that because a corresponding hash is stored on the blockchain. So we can make sure that the data stored in the private database has not been changed as well as it is not visible to any other parties as well. And one more point is that fabric private code that we already discussed. I appreciate the wonderful inputs just to make sure we are 33 minutes now and I'll encourage anybody, if you have any questions, please feel free to shoot your questions in the chat so that we can respond to those. And now we wish to go to the next segment of our discussion and that is covering the challenges. I'll request Ravi a question for you. What is holding back blockchain from a global adoption? We hear about blockchain from the year 2009. We hear about the peer-to-peer energy trading maybe from 2016. And now we have many POCs and pilots, but when it comes to real production, great deployment, which is a large scale implementation, I think we are still lagging behind. So Ravi, I would like you to take the lead here and then I'll encourage Veronica and Joss and Piti to share their thoughts on it. So over to you Ravi. Yeah, thank you. I hope you guys hear me now, right? So what I could see predominantly, right? It's a market maturity standpoint because blockchain-based any offering is a team play. You need to have an ecosystem coming in. There are two kinds of an ecosystem. Your peer play, for example, if you go for demand response or demand response management system or DER coming into play, you have a whole set of distributed energy coming into play where you have to bring in those into connected in three layers. One is device level connection, then you have a managing those set of device and connected to registries and bit management system or trading system, then finally settlement, right? So I could see there are IOTs and related stuff is bit matured, but the DERMs or other related stuff is getting matured. That is one, because they are coming up in that space. And the same time, the adoption towards the ecosystem plays, the private plays, aggregators, or overall, that are all getting formed or still in the very nascent stage, right? And this has to form as an ecosystem or a consortium to jointly see, and there is a core thing is coming is ICT that, ICT plays like communication providers, right? They have a core play in it and they are ready to start that play because I could see a technonic shift from cloud and ICT plays may take over over a period of time as a smart energy system, as a service providers, later in, because it will give a lot of low cost offerings or market barrier entries and all that. So this is my point of view. It's all very interested and the POC pilots taken care only on blockchain centric. It's a combination of DRM and that has to happen, larger piece and it has to move along with ICT plays also. That is a later line, later I could see and beyond that has to bring in other consortium players, players, sellers, buyers and consumers. So I think there's quite a bit of a job to be done in that space. It's my view. Yeah, I completely agree with Ravi in that respect and I will add an additional point to that that I mentioned at the very beginning, that digitalization of the energy sector in different countries is completely different, right? And this is extremely important to mention because for instance, how do you do peer-to-peer trading if you don't have a smart meter in place, right? So then you first need to have the infrastructure available. You need to have the regulation available to implement this type of use cases. And therefore we are very, very interested to really deploy the technology we have in India because we have seen that the level of digitalization in the Indian market is wonderful, right? You guys have at heart since ages now, you have the UPI. So it's really, I think it's right. And I do believe that one thing that it's missing that I have not seen it's a, let's call it a global sandbox to really adopt this kind of use cases mainly for research purposes and really to understand what are the frictions in the system, right? So I think regulation is really key and just to give you an idea, the regulation we have to comply with when it comes to the smart meter itself, it's huge, right? You need certain certifications. I don't know what was that. Some kind of network glitches. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so then the second piece that I want to mention is that if you move from the IoT and the smart meter and devices into communication protocols, in India, for instance, we have seen that each state has a different communication or regulatory communication. So I think it's really important to have regulatory constraints for communications that need to comply with, for instance, Lora technology or with radio frequency or whatever it is. And if you cannot send data to the cloud or to the chain, then the use case is simply not there. And the last part is really regulation on the blockchain use cases that exist and interoperability of blockchains. And for that, we are very interested to see the work that Hyperledger has done on Cactus platform. Thanks, Veronica. I would encourage Josh to take a lead now. That will be on consensus building. Like Ravi mentioned, there are diverse levels of progress when it comes to the maturity of the different tax tax. Veronica mentioned there are different regulations in different countries. So when it comes to building a consensus among the different stakeholders, what could be the potential strategy or approach that we can think about which might help in the promotion of blockchain overall or adoption of blockchain in the power sector? Yeah, so thank you. So and to chime in a little bit on what the other parties and Veronica already mentioned, I think that one of the crucial aspect is also the governance that we need to learn as an industry how to collaborate together. Because one of the, and I'll just show one screen. Just a second. So this is my Lighthouse project, right? So what's shown here is that once you want to collaborate between startups and the regulated corporations, then the decision-making in those companies are quite different. And also the speed of decision-making. So in order to make that work, not only the regulation needs to be in shape. So in this use case, for instance, we are on the harmonized European regulation in North America, and regulation is coming up in with FERC 2222, which is opening up the market for the same kind of use case. But the collaboration between the different entities is quite an aspect that we learned in this project, and which went live in 2006, 17, and we built a blockchain solution for each country, and we replicated for each country in Europe in order to be resilient to outages in a single instance. So because it's novel technology, there are quite a number of upgrades and new versions. We don't want to have a full blackout in Europe based on an hyperlegic fabric issue. So that's why we have a very distributed approach. So N2 Veronica's point, connecting those blockchains is quite a novel area that needs to be tested out in the market. So if you have a single platform, then it's probably a little bit easier to do. And one of the projects that I'm currently working on, and it's being submitted in open source on hyperlegia as well, is a new tokenization layer on top of fabric. So that means that we can build now a token-based solutions which has the promise, if you use the token taxonomy framework, that you then can share the token definitions and have different implementations on different technology stacks, but being able to do atomic swaps between those different blockchains in order to preserve the value and support that use case and the workflow between all the entities. So and that's something that we are collaborating with with two tokens.org in the Netherlands and we are building an implementation for a large client in Japan as we speak. Okay, those are quite vast insights and appreciate all your combined collective inputs today. I would like to move to the next part, which is again a follow up to your points on tokens. Let's cover a little bit about tokens. We hear a lot about NFTs picking up the market traction. People are very much interested and curious to learn what it is all about. And again, how does token influence the overall power sector or the energy ecosystem? So maybe again, I'll request Josh to take the lead and then I'll encourage others to step in and share their thoughts. Yeah, so very briefly then. So when you talk about tokens in the energy sector, everyone has a resilience to tokenize the kilowatt hours. So but if you look at the energy transition issues, then financing the energy transition is quite a complicated task on itself. So currently I'm working on fractional ownership of solar farms. So when that means that we create a fintech product to accelerate the build out of new solar farms. So interesting aspect is that if you have a fractional ownership, so for instance a token representing a single solar panel, you can then hook the kilowatt hours and also the power for trading, also the certificates of origin that are applicable in certain markets as off takes of that single asset. So when that gives a new dynamic in the industry, I think, and how it all turns out, that's quite interesting to see. You can follow us on the two tokens website, but there are work streams on regulatory aspects, work streams on taxation aspects, work streams on the technology aspects, so the IoT integration, the metering, and also some aspects on the business case. So how do you model the business, how to create business models for all parties in the ecosystem? Exciting, any thoughts from anyone? So I think the fractional ownership that you mentioned is going to pick up a lot. May not be in all places, especially in the cities or where you have limited space, having a rooftop solar panel sometimes may not be visible, or in some of the locations, there are some interesting projects going on where people are looking just to replicate the model of cloud, going into some kind of a solar farms and you give the ownership, segregating need not be the whole, but dividing it into as much as someone can afford. So I think that's something we can look into. The next part of our discussion that I would like to target is on carbon offset. We talk a lot about climate change, global warming, COP26 happening in London this year, and many other events. So from a carbon offset registration, I request Veronica to share your thoughts and maybe others can jump in after you. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I think that, you know, whenever it comes to carbon mitigation strategies and climate disclosure, blockchain technologies provide a fantastic advantage when it comes to the type of infrastructure that you can build, mainly for these climate disclosures and to really connect each entity with their own carbon footprint. And if you go a step ahead of that, you can also tokenize it, meaning just to give you an example, right now we have a smart meter. We understand what is the consumption and the generation in a certain community. Let's assume it's a rural community and they are connected to a solar plant, right? We get all this information. We run a calculation on the blockchain and hyperlider fabric 2.2, where we get a type of carbon offset or IREC depending on the type of generation and capacity the power plant has, right? And then later on, we will be able to tokenize that and sell it in the open market. Of course, MRB has to happen. Of course, certification has to happen, but I think it's a fantastic use case to really understand and pinpoint who has mitigated what over a certain period of time. And then later on, let's assume that a conglomerate of SMEs will get together and say we want to issue a bond on the blockchain. And let's say the coupon can be paid, as I mentioned before, either on fiat currency or it can be paid using this carbon credit. So these I think are really interesting use cases to move financing to the areas that are actually having an impact on the carbon footprint. Thanks, Veronica. And we have one question from Kartik. So some of the key issues that we have been discussing in the panel, why can we not just use existing conventional centralized IT application and architecture to address those and to drive efficiencies? Not able to see what the key point is that makes blockchain the best and potentially the only possible solution as opposed to existing IT systems. So what's the revolution? Ravi, you want to take a lead? Yeah, I take that. So see blockchain and emerging tech, right? Yeah, IoT blockchain. Having said that, they bring in three buckets, new market innovation and new business stream and revenue stream. That is the major goal, right? All of a sudden, everybody puts a rooftop and they have a production of solar energy, post-consumption, they are putting it to a grid. We understand everything in place. Like we have a smart grid, even though low voltage have a smart facility to push it into a grid, right? End of the day, this cannot be done in a centralized place. This has to be done through a distributed way within. Consumer to consumer or business to consumer or business to business to consumer. All this complex system, you have to mitigate, come up with a model, business model and provide entire value chain, economic value and then financial transaction. This can be done in a blockchain combination of asset, transaction and financials. That is one area and reoriented of the markets. Like some other area is re-oriented, like you remove dismantles right in between that, who are playing as a middle agent in this, can be removed, which cannot be done by other ledger systems or other centralized system as of today. And efficiency has always been given. Once you do this or reorient your process and functionalities and all that, it is taken care by the entire, both of the market reorientation and the new business innovation definitely takes care of this set of functions. So I see, when you want to get into a new market, a new approach or existing market reorientation blockchain as a federated system, ecosystem play, it supports it. And moreover, blockchain is for the enterprises, a new network-based ERP for ecosystem plays to come and work as an address a common goal or achieve a business scenario here. That's my point of view. So I get it. You are referring to the- One point, yes, I appreciate it. Go ahead. So decentralized environment is needed because for more competition in this market. So so far, it is centralized, there is, I would say, least competition in the market. We need more competition in energy sectors such that consumer can get better services and at affordable prices. That's why we need this center. And if it becomes decentralized, then to acquire trust in the network, we need to go with the blockchain. Otherwise, it will be very difficult. Okay, Joss, I think you are also willing to respond to this question. Yeah, so I would add one new one aspect. I think that is not very expressed so far. And it is traditional solutions gives you visibility in your single hub to integrating with your upstream and downstream kind of collaborators. And as we see for the transition in the ecosystem, so we need to have multi-stakeholder solutions. So when the blockchain gives you opportunity to see beyond your integration point with your supplier, the total supply chain or the total downstream. So that gives more trust for every party because you have more visibility on the data that's flowing between parties that you're not aware of. Okay, wonderful. Veronica, any thoughts from your end? I mean, to me, the important piece here is, whenever you have IoT in place and you can connect it, let's say to the chain and this could also be on edge, the level of security you're including in the system, it's something that it's very difficult to achieve with a centralized network. This is one. The second piece is traceability of data in our use case is extremely important, right? Because if you're working with the Royal Communities and you want to bring investors on those Royal Communities, how do I provide the transparency they need to know that this data is actually there and that it has not been modified or whatever, right? And these users in Royal Communities do pay for the electricity and their services. So I think the transparency not just for the investor but also for the end user is really key. Just to give you an example, the in Royal Communities, usually they would pay for their electricity on a weekly basis, but at the end of the payment period, let's say they have a solar installation at home, no one usually give these people with a certificate or with a receipt that they have actually paid for their loan, right? Because that's pretty much what it is. With this type of technology, you can actually facilitate that at the end of the payment period in an immediate basis, which is not something we have seen so far. So I do believe that immunotubility, verification, security of data, standardization is really key, at least in the energy sector. Thanks, Veronica. I guess we have a few more questions. We can take one more question now here. I would like to take, as companies are struggling to meet the ROI with business use cases for blockchain projects, do you think they will be invested in using DLT for SDG? I assume this refers to sustainable development goals. What are the advantages for early adopters? Yeah, so I can chime in a little bit. I would like to take that question. So when it comes to the ROI of businesses, right? Whenever you are transparency, you can also add the fact that if you have, for instance, IoT and you have a smart meter that can allow you to get data on a real-time basis and monitors the system on a real-time basis, you are for sure reducing your ONM costs, right? Because you're not sending an agent to check on each house who is consuming what. This is the first piece. And then if on top of that, you add blockchain technology to really standardize the data across different parties, I do think that increase of use cases will of course provide an increase in revenue in the future for all these companies. But it's a mix. It's not only blockchain to me, it's the mix of technologies that really provide a very stable use case to reduce costs and increase revenues. Adults. Yeah, so I think that successful blockchain projects have a clear positive business case for each party to collaborate. So if we are looking to sustainable development goals, you see that the ESG categories three emissions. So the emissions that you have impacting upstream and downstream of your own business activities needs to have a collaboration. That's a multi-party collaboration that you need to work in. So you need to have then a bounded context. So everyone has its own data sets on how they're producing and what the emissions are. And partially it needs to be shared as part of the normal business transactions they do in the value chain. So I think that the sustainable development goals with ESG is a very excellent use case and that's something that's on the table right now for me, for a big client in Japan, to find out how we can use and apply blockchain and tokenization to make that very elegant solution. I would like to add one point here. So for auditing, usually we need to pay some third party and come on to auditing, right? But with blockchain, auditing can be done instantly. So that's gonna also add into ROI. And one more thing, as I already mentioned, the payment settlement happens instantly with the blockchain. So what if you have to wait for payment for 60 to 80 days? And what if it happens instantly? So these are all factors as other participants already mentioned that is gonna affect ROI. Excellent points. And I guess we are just two minutes to close up. First of all, I want to thank everyone for your time. Those who have joined us today in this wonderful panel discussion, Joss, Veronica, Preeti and Ravi, sharing your critical insights. And I guess we will connect with you guys later as well. The Hyperlegic Global Forum for today has just started. We are having many more events. We can connect with you guys and for the follow up questions for others, I'll encourage you to maybe we can connect via the networking session or you can drop your mail ID here in the chat and we will try to connect and try to get back to you with any questions that you might have. And thanks again, everyone, for your time and wish you a wonderful event ahead of the Hyperlegic Global Forum 2021. Have a great day. Bye. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Ravi. Thank you, Joss. And I'm going to end it, Preeti. Thank you. Okay.