 The name of the show is Do Catholics Worship Saints? You're live. Hey friends, this is Dan and Stephanie Burke. You're watching behind the scenes, Divine Intimacy Radio. We'll start the show in just a minute. So today we're going to be talking about the saints with a wonderful guest that we'll introduce to you in a minute. But we're going to answer the question. Do Catholics worship saints? How is it that saints can help us in our spiritual journey to grow in the interior life to come to union with God? And so we'll get to that in just a minute. There's a free webinar coming up. I like the title. I'm sure it will be interesting to people. You should do this around Jordan. You should do this around Halloween, right? The webinar is called What is a Ghost? With Jordan Burke, my, our son and Father Dennis McManus, Father McManus is, is one of the most exceptional and extraordinary communicators I've ever listened to before on the, on spiritual warfare in particular, which is all I've ever heard or speak about. But he does seminary formation. He helped Pope Benedict with the current right of exorcism, I think to make some improvements. And he's just an extraordinary professor. He teaches for, or he teaches for the Aval Institute, higher calling, high calling program. And he also is directs our spiritual direction program for, for seminarians. So he's a powerhouse. Jordan's kind of interesting. I don't know, Jordan. So when is this going to happen? Cause you mentioned Halloween. So we don't want to confuse people. Is there a real date? August 1st at 645 p.m. central. Okay. And if you can't make it live, you can still register to receive a link to the video. So go spiritualdirection.com forward slash events. And you'll find that webinar. What is a ghost? Probably be pretty, it's going to be, it's going to be super interesting. Yeah, because Father McManus is amazing. I could just sit and listen to him all day long and people were mesmerized by his talk at the summit. Yeah, summer. He was one of our headline speakers and just a remarkable priest. Now, what's interesting is our guest has similar rave reviews as Father McManus. So don't, don't, you know, hang out with us for a second and then we'll jump into the show and we'll get to, we'll get to share with you who this top secret human is that we're going to bring on. I can't, it's Edwards, but you know, what am I going to do? So the last thing I want to tell you about is that we have a new pilgrimage that we've announced coming up. Yes, I'm so excited. And it's, and it's related to our guest too in a way. We're going back to Spain, which has been my, I've loved all of the pilgrimages we've led, but Israel was really a highlight this lot this month earlier this month or was it July? Does it? It was in the past recent. Yeah, so can you tell it and get any sleep last night? So we're going to be leading a Carmelite pilgrimage to Spain and it's going to be off the hook. Amazing. Yeah. And if you've ever been on pilgrimages with us, one thing you know is they're not spiritual vacations. We actually pray and it's also not sort of a Disneyland sort of kind of it's a beautiful encounter with the saints that we're walking in the steps of it's, it's prayer. It's just really awesome. We keep it down to one bus. Yeah, you will not find us with three to nine buses as other really wonderful human beings do. We keep it to one bus because this is not about raising money. This is about being together and really entering into the purpose of pilgrimage, which is encounter and transformation. Yeah. So it's awesome. I mean, if you talk to anybody that's been on pilgrimage with us, it's really extraordinary. They're life changing and I just love all the miracles that we see and the people whose lives are completely transformed through the prayer and walking with us in these, these beautiful steps of our saints, which is related to our topic today. Yeah. So spiritualdirection.com forward slash event same, same page for what does it go? So check that out. It'll fill up pretty fast and I think we're ready to go. You ready? I'm ready to go on your mark. Let's go. Welcome to divine intimacy radio. This is Dan and Stephanie Burke. You're listening to your radio Haven of rest. Your hermitage of the heart, your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw upon the wisdom of the saints that we might come to union with God. And we have a very special guest today. Yep. Double triple special. Yes. I'm very excited to announce our guests. So here we go. Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell is joining us today. She received her doctorate so I obviously haven't received my doctorate because I can't speak. That's right. So Dr. Elizabeth Mitchell has received her doctorate in a list in institutional social communications from the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome. First of first first woman to first late is a layperson Dr. Mitchell. First layperson first layperson and first first female. Awesome. That's awesome. Her dissertation artist and image, artistic creativity and personal formation in the thought of Edis Stein focuses on Saint Edis Stein's understanding of the role of beauty in evangelization. She has done many more amazing holy things, one of which is she is a professor for us at the Avila Institute. And so we're very glad to have her join us today. So welcome. Good morning Stephanie. Good morning, Dan. It is great to be here. So today we're talking about obviously Saints and you've done an amazing job helping and teaching at the Institute and and really revealing the beauty of Saint Edis Stein and her religious name. Of course the Saint Teresa Benedicta but and is it of the cross? Isn't it of the cross? That's correct of the cross. She chose that was asked for that title when she became a Carmelite religious because it was an encounter with the cross during World War One. That made her, she said it shattered her unbelief. And I think that's quite an amazing testimony to the power of the lived experience of the cross. She was, she had a very beloved professor and his name was Adolf Reinach and one often died in World War One and Edith was asked to come and assist Professor Reinach's widow to arrange his papers and Edith didn't want to go because she was broken up and she thought how much more the widow is going to be a wreck and this is a disaster and the widow was complete composed serene in her sorrow wedded to the cross that there was redone or in her husband's death and the suffering of the death and the acceptance of God's will in the cross on her and Edith said my my unbelief which was very entrenched for Edith Stein is shattered. Fascinating. Now we're going to, you already gave us a little glimpse, a little window into her life, but I do want to back up and ask and answer, you know the first the the show begs a question and and we do know that Protestants listen and also Catholics get criticized or or troubled by this this issue that we're going to talk about today, but then we'll dive back into to Saint Teresa of Benedicta is about Catholics worshiping saints. I one of the great things about being a convert is I know a lot of scripture and I'll never forget the real the awareness that emerged in me where Saint Paul said follow me as I follow Christ right and it's not a problem to follow someone as they follow Christ now of course Saint Paul was alive when you wrote those letters or he still is alive but he was he was he was he hadn't passed on to eternal eternal life or to the great cloud of witnesses yet but what what do we say when when Protestants claim that we worship saints? What's what's the best answer for that you hit the nail right on the head. It's that our veneration of the saints it does not stop or end with the life of that Saint worship is always directed to God worship can only be given to the deity God and so when we venerate is the term that we use the saints we are respecting and honoring the life that they lived and the way in which they then point us to God so when we venerate a saint what the saint does is takes our interest and our prayers and points it all and gives it all to God. The saints are in heaven. That's what makes you with saint. The church has confirmed that those individuals lived a life of heroic faith hope and charity and that in heaven which means they are worshiping God 24 7 that's what they're doing and so our veneration and respect to them for them our honoring of them is always transferred up to God. You think of adulation adulation in the sports world we we quote unquote worship athletes. But but the nation ends there it ends with the athlete it often doesn't even spill over into their personal which could be questionable or unquestionable we just look at their skill and talent and we we we laud it. It's an obsessive degree I would say often in our culture but there's none of that in venerating the saints we are asking friends and mentors who are as as real and as alive as we are here on earth to help us get to our goal which is and they do and I think they choose us. I think they befriend us. I know that St. Edisdine be friends people so if you're listening to this today she's she's shouting out to you because she has a way to help you in what you need to do to serve Christ more fully. You know one of the questions that I think begs to be answered is is why would they want to help us right. You know I was I was speaking to an individual just recently and the person was struggling with this disbelief that saints would actually want to help them in their struggle to help them deal with what they were struggling with you know how how do we answer that like why would they bother with us you know we're not saints we may be saints in the making but we're not saints yet. Why if they're busy worshiping God why would they bother with us. The generosity of the same just bills over it's like a fountain that's overflowing in the church often even in my own life a saint will point me to another saint like hey you're asking me about this but did you know that this thing is even better at helping you with that today is the memorial of Saint Joachim and the parents of the Blessed Mother. And so I mean it starts in the ancient church and then it goes even to the modern martyrs but there's a generosity Stephanie I think in the saints hearts they want to help us to to come to where they are and joy and they know the beatific vision and it's as if you I mean we all say hey did you know about this thing so excited about it can I tell you about it whatever it is that we're passionate about and we can't stop talking about it and leading others to it in our secular lives and it's the same with the saints but they're always leading us to God always. Yeah I mean if you have love if you know God and he's transformed your life the normative response is I want to give everything to the Lord and I want to tell everyone about how he helped me and I want to help everyone else so if you're truly converted which the saints are more than the rest of us of course they're ready to pour their lives out tell us a little bit about yourself and your spiritual journey you're you're obviously your academic background is pretty substantial but yet I don't hear a pure academic in terms of your your your heart and your mind are united in your pursuit of God which is I think a blessing for someone with your level of intellect but what is your spiritual journey I guess maybe that's why Edith Stein was so interesting to you. I'm a pure example of Edith Stein choosing someone I was in Rome doing my doctorate in church communications and when you live in Rome you go to the canonizations just kind of as a life and there was a Sunday 1998 in which in October in which Stein was being canonized and I went no no devotion to her no prior knowledge of her life or biography and there I was in the square and I actually said Saint Edith I probably won't be very close to you because you are this towering philosophical intellect but you know help me and help me to know what to do and how to use my gifts and she's the opposite. She is so down to earth so simple so human so humorous so wanting to help us in in small ways leading us then to the fullness of our vocation and she just took me by the hand and said hey I've got this whole body of work and if you could sit in the library and out I'd really like it given to the world and that's I put together her her work on beauty. She has a lot they about each of us as a masterpiece of the divine artists meaning we're an artwork of God and our entire lives effecting the artwork that we are to be fully beautiful and fully realized for him. So it was very simple. I would say simplicity is my maybe the story of my my journey. The Lord was always showing me what was next and sometimes it was intimidating but he was always there in a family. We always pray that the Lord would send people to befriend us and to be with us and to show us who we should need and what we do and I think if you pray like that the Lord's got the plan and he's put inside of you gifts that you that you are going to realize and it's just a matter of sort of unfolding. So it's really beautiful. I love that you know because we know that we can help people connect to God through the good the true and the beautiful. I think beauty is something that so many people can rally around that we can agree upon and we can look at something and find it very moving. Can you tell us before we go to break we've got about about a minute. A little bit about this idea of beauty and why it's so important. What have you learned from Edith saying Edith sign tells us what we what we know instinctively which is that the beautiful is what touches and moves the soul to respond. And so if your soul is moved and touched and really leading toward joy. That's beauty that's the quality of the beauty and it always points beyond to its source which is God himself and so the divine archetype meaning the divine model the divine perfect form of all God himself is what you're experiencing in natural beauty artistic beauty the beauty of a friendship when your soul is touched move to respond and there's a joy. That's an experience of beauty and it's such a powerful way to come to know God. Beautiful and no pun intended beautiful. So when we get back from the break will continue to talk about Saint Edith Stein with Dr. Mitchell and if you have an interest in her and you want to pray a novena to her. This year we will be publishing and a brand new divina and we don't believe there's anything out there like it that you can find anywhere and that'll be you'll find that at apostoliva.org no matter when you hear the broadcast and you hear it after the feast day you can get it the next get it ready for the next year but a p o s t o l i v i a e .org and there's the blog section there and you can get access to that without being a member of the site so we'll be back in just a minute for everyone listening Dr. Mitchell if you're enjoying her which I'm sure you are she teaches at the Abel Institute and there are a few courses coming up that I want to tell you about we do we do you have a course scheduled yet sometimes soon to in fact I just started one and it's on the biography of the life of Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross it's a six week course there are five days five seminars left and then in the fall in November I will be doing Masterpiece of Divine Artists which is Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross is teaching on beauty as a Catholic God so that's avala-institute.org we have a few courses other courses coming up short term spiritual wisdom of Saint Thomas Aquinas healing the imagination a reading course in the Lord of the Rings all of those and Dr. Mitchell's courses can be found at avala-institute.org and I think we're ready to jump back in okay so when we jump back in I just like to hit the idea of beauty a little bit more and here we go and your markets that go this is Dana Stephanie Burke welcome back to Divine Intimacy Radio and we're talking about with Dr. Mitchell about Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross a lot of people know her as Edith Stein which was her name before she became a Carmelite religious it's interesting Dr. Mitchell I think I read a quote a while back from Aquinas and then I wrote a post on it and I'm sorry for whatever reason I can't remember I'm pretty sure it was Aquinas but he talked about this idea of the mind of God and the expression of the mind of God and we live because he loves us we live at a retreat center that's exquisite and I would I was just thinking the post had pictures of the beauty at the retreat center and the question was would you like to see the mind of God and so then of course the picture then I would show the beauty in the pictures and then try to help people to understand this is the way he thinks this this the beauty is the essence of how he thinks am I am I on target with these ideas absolutely Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross calls God the divine artist capital D capital A and he is the par excellence divine artist I was out on a walk yesterday evening and the sky was so gorgeous I said it looks like Monet painted that sky and then I said to myself oh wait a minute Monet is a reflection a shadow is brilliance of the power of the artistic ability of God and so the sky was painted by God last night and it was a beautiful blue and gorgeous clouds and everywhere you look you have that beauty but what Saint Edith sign says she says all artistic creation secret service and that's a profound remark if if the art is true meaning it it hearkens to the genuine and it's in it's in sync with with truth and goodness it is serving God he says ultimately we are the living images that God is crafting and creating meaning that you Dan and you Stephanie your artworks in the world your living images that the divine artist is perfecting and Stein says that happens through gentle strokes and chisel blows and I think in our lives we have known both we know both the chisel blows those moments you just feel like what was that and it's it's jarring and then the fine brush strokes that he comes in and lays into our interior and what you become Stein says it's called the Le Bendige Bilder which means living artworks living images you then are someone to God because they see you and you're a masterpiece and they say what is it that makes Dan and Stephanie tick what is it about Mother Teresa that just resonates something more well Mother Teresa the masterpiece of the divine artist awesome it's really beautiful never heard that before I I I know Stephanie's got a question but it just reminds me a little bit of a I was going through the liturgy of the hours last week is just normal and I ran across this passage in the Old Testament where it talked about God delighting in forgiving us of our sins you know but this idea of God delighting in us as well has been something that meditated a lot on and I think that we because of our brokenness especially folks who are aware of their sinfulness and they have shame and and you know doubt and you know they're drawn to sin and we we can really miss the essence of who we are isn't as Stephanie like to say you are not your sin right the essence of who we are isn't sin it's not our failures the essence of who we are is who the divine artist is is drawing if you will creating unfolding yeah this beautiful understanding that we are daughters and sons of a great King and how exquisitely he loves us you know as you were talking about the beauty of creation I was reminded that I went out on our back porch here at the retreat center about 430 am so everything was dark and we had the crescent moon and I could see the stars and as I stood on the back steps and looked up into the sky you know it was just a moment of deep awe and praise of how how majestic and beautiful and generous a God we have you know how how good you are to us Lord that you love us with such beauty and that you've painted the sky in this manner just for us and just for me at this moment right and just this moment and had I had I not gotten up and followed that urge to prayer I would have missed it so it was just so exquisite so I'm I'm sorry go ahead did you want to say something I was going to say and and St. Edith Stein who who really had no faith until she converted to Christianity and Catholicism she is in a Jewish family but she she gave up praying and she became really a questioning atheist. She says he seeks truth seeks God whether he realizes it or not and in hindsight she knows that her to the divine was in the arts and in natural beauty until she met him as Christ incarnate and she was such an academic you would think well she came in actually to the faith but she didn't she came to the faith through a series of meeting for living images meaning live breathing people who were living their faith and that's what broke the the chains that in a in a near despair that she would ever find something more. She reached the heights academic let's say prowess and and she wanted something more because there was something more what so when you want to go out and you are at 430 in the morning seeing that sky and you're called to something higher it's because there is thing higher and so God never disappoints us and he's never less than we could hope or expect or need or want and so Stein Stein came to the faith through meeting living breathing Christians eventually she meets St. Teresa of Avila speaking of the Avila Institute. She reads Teresa of Avila's biography and she closes it and she says this is the truth and she is ready for really her her full call which is going to be to be a cloister Carmelite religious. She lives in the world for eight more years getting her bearings as a Catholic and she loses her position at a university because of the anti-Semitic laws during the Nazi persecution and that ironically that chisel blow is the Lord opening the door of Carmel to her and she becomes a Carmelite professed religious and she eventually dies then in Auschwitz concentration camp when the Nazi persecution comes even into the heart of cloisters and removes those born Jewish and takes them to Auschwitz but she dies as a martyr of the faith because she is she is rounded up in a persecution that is particularly anti-Catholic. It's her the roundup is retribution for a bold statement made by the Catholic peace and bishops in Holland at and that's where Stein ended up for safety. She's transferred from Germany to Carmel the Carmel and she's rounded up in it in in odium feed in hatred of the faith which is glorious in terms of who she's called to be. That's so remarkable. So let's move on to the next question. So what are some of the stories of transformation you've heard while teaching at Avala as people go deep into the life of this extraordinary saint of St. Eustine how because it's just moving even to hear a short synopsis of her. So I'm certain there are stories of transformation as people enter into the fullness of who she was and her transformation. I would say that the main comment that students give on the way into the class is I don't know anything about St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross also known as St. Eustine. I've just heard about her and I want to know more. So they come in almost wanting to get to know a friend and because I know St. Eustine chooses and be friends and invites. She's called all the students and she's got a special gift for each one of them and often it's a meeting them where they're at and affirming who they're called to be and the gifts and talents that I think students have but they don't quite know how they're meant to offer more to the Lord. And there's a piece that comes from St. Eustine. She comes alongside you and she really just encourages you. What you're doing is meaningful and you can do more. I often tell the students to go write an article because their insights are profound as they're living through the biography of St. Eustine. So I think then this seems to set us back out into the world. So I think you come into the class thinking I just like to learn a little something and then you're touched by the Holy Spirit through the intercession of St. Eustine and your gifts are released in a new way after the out into the world because there's more needed of you. I remember I was reading something about her life and she she I think she uttered the phrase the world is on fire. It may have been in a letter, you know, during during the Holocaust and in Germany's advancing. She she asks Dan she really knows that she's impotent. She can't do anything to affect the world situation. And so she asks her mother superior in writing to allow her to be a Holocaust. Them meaning I will be interiorly mortified for the Lord and that will have power. And she says I know other souls will do the same. So if you can't go do the great thing, you can F E F E C T through your the life you're living, which Joe Kim and Anne would have done. They change the entire through personal holiness and hiddenness. If what is she the the patroness of do you know is one depression and anxiety and mental illness and then which is so fascinating and also those seeking work and then those called to witness for their faith. Those three groups of people fascinating. Well, and when I see her, one of the things that drew me to her was the photographs of her and she looks like a woman of deep suffering. I'm sure that she had much joy because everyone in Christ does. But there's just this. I don't know. It reminds me of some beautiful paintings. I've seen of Our Lady of Sorrows and how she's just bearing the weight of the world, though willingly, of course, a martyr. There's a resonance with the St. Edisdine was remarked upon as a living pita as she went to Auschwitz in the way that she carry other people, particularly children and and suffered with with that with a willingness. As it went. Well, folks, if you're if you've enjoyed Dr. Mitchell, she's one of our favorite teachers here at the Aval Institute. I mean, according to the students and she has a beautiful heart for God and a passion and and and an academic heart that's filled filled with God's love and and desire and it just it pours out of her. So check out the Aval Institute to grow spiritually and with that we are our show is up. Okay. Until next time, may the God of peace make you perfect in holiness. May he preserve you whole and entire spirit, soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our Lord. Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Just just for our editor when you edit the show and I know we're still live streaming so the live streamers don't worry and I know you're still there. But when you edit the show, edit the first reference about feast day of Joachim. But leave the the latter references. But anyway, Dr. Mitchell, it's really been great to meet you and we where do you live? Where's your where's your home? I'm in Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Okay. Well, if you ever down this way and you need rest, reach out to us. We'd love to meet you face to face and host you at the retreat. Thank you. That would be that would be absolutely. I will I will try and get there. Thank you and thank you for all that you both do. It's a it's a holocaust of its own that bears fruits of. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you for folks still listening. If you want to be a part of the Novena this year and I strongly recommend you do that so that the graces that come through this great Saint can come to you. Go to apostoliva.org and you'll be in the blog. It'll be published there any any day now to prepare you for that for the Novena and for her feast day. Is it a feast day? It's a memorial probably, right? I believe that's right. I think it's a memorial. Okay. Well, God bless you. Thank you for your joy. It's really I can't say enough how important it is for the people of God to see joy in the midst of very difficult and dark times. So thanks for helping to make it a little brighter. Thank you. Okay. God bless you.