 I've talked to IT people who have said, but we do have diversity. We have people who can program in Java, and we have people who can program in C++. And I've had people arrive to meet with me and look around and say, where's the CIO? You know, I just walked through the exhibit hall, and I could say it's a blessing and a curse that I get completely ignored by vendors. So because they're not expecting small Asian female is CIO. So that is different. It doesn't necessarily mean bad, because I could also say, hey, I wasn't being harassed by vendors, but it also says something about the lack of recognition of the diversity and technology and leadership. Now in the workplace, I think things are still pretty tough for women, especially with work-life balance. And if you want to have kids, so it depends how far you want to go. When you're looking at the pie chart of the demographics for your position at an event like EduClause, and you're in the 1% slice based upon your age and your gender, and you think, oh my goodness, so I really belong here. That seems to be something that's quite more common among women than others. And I think it's something that maybe we should talk about. Have I had a different experience? Absolutely. I talked to somebody about this yesterday. When I first started in my career, I could sense that decisions were being made. Important decisions about staffing, about direction, about planning, but I couldn't figure out where they were being made because they weren't happy with the meetings that I was invited to. And I found out that there were a lot of activities external to the workplace that not only was I not invited to attend, but it would have been completely inappropriate for me to participate if it was overnight hut trips, if it was riding 100 miles on a bike, because I couldn't do that. But there's that aspect of it. I don't sense that a lot now, but certainly I did when I first started my career. Sometimes people ask me, so how many children do you have? I say, well, I sort of have three. I have a 15-year-old, I have a 10-year-old, and I have an IT department that occurred in between those in the form of a CIO job I wasn't expecting. And so my kids are five and a half years apart, and having the second child was really sort of an act of self-assertion that now I am still going to have the family that I planned on, even though my career has done this turn and being the bowling ball walking through meetings where I am the only woman in a big group and people are not only remarking that I'm the only woman but I'm big as a house, and then trying to figure out how to find time in my crazy schedule to pump when you're nursing. It's a challenge. Upper-level management, balancing family life and work life still has quite a few challenges that I hope that higher ed, but I mean the country at large, really takes seriously and so that women can take on more responsibility. And don't have to drop out of the workplace or take on part-time jobs instead of a full-time, challenging career. I also do have a sense that if you're not a good girl that you are seen in a certain light and that is as a troublemaker. So it's very difficult as a woman to be able to make critiques in such a way that people can hear them and act on them but not feel threatened by them. Arguably I'd say to a lesser extent higher ed IT culture but just IT culture generally is very male oriented and even just the all night hours and the always on characteristic of it. Not that women can't be always on but sometimes the family obligations are different for women and that is more challenging and just the culture of the workplace sometimes can be awkward. And some of it's chicken and the egg, when you're just repeatedly the only woman in the room, the only woman around the table, just gonna like, okay, what really belong here? How can we make it better? Why don't you assume I'm the CEO, even though I'm not. Why don't you assume I'm the chief innovation officer? Why don't you assume that? Isn't that interesting? You're gonna be asked the outrageous interview question. You're going to be asked, you're going to be the only person of your character in the room. You're going to have those experience and you kind of have to be ready for them and power through them but in a very quiet way and to never have a chip on your shoulder. The chip cannot be there. It's gotta be, you gotta lose yourself in the profession, lose yourself in the moment, in the passion, in the issues. You know, how do you get confident? It's hard sometimes, you know and sometimes they can't do it from the inside that easily and they need help from the outside. And so we can do that, we can support each other and it's even more important for the men to support the women because the men tend to be in the leadership positions, statistically speaking. So for the women to get there, the men have to support them. They can't fight their way into it because if they try to fight then they can't get there because nobody's gonna want them so they have to be helped into that environment and so we really need to listen to them.